From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Fri Sep 10 19:37:27 1999 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:49:45 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG9905A" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 22:30:18 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Tanya Bouwman Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF-LIT Digest - 27 Apr 1999 to 28 Apr 1999 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Just wondering if you're all out there, or if something's wrong in my part of the Internet. I haven't received anything from the list in three days. Are we all being quiet? Or is it just me? Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 21:22:18 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF-LIT Digest - 27 Apr 1999 to 28 Apr 1999 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I just joined this version of the list, and have heard nothing at all1 Imagine my relief at finding out there really IS a list! I am re-reading Grass, which I presume is book-of-the-month, but I don't want to say anything until I finish it. Believe it or not, I can't remember the ending; Sharon L. Anderson Tanya Bouwman wrote: > > Hi all, > > Just wondering if you're all out there, or if something's wrong in my part of > the Internet. I haven't received anything from the list in three days. Are > we all being quiet? Or is it just me? > > Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 01:06:27 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lindy Lovvik Subject: Lack of messages (plus "Remnant Population") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi. I suspect everyone was busy this weekend, although I did wonder if my ISP was having periodic problems because of receiving so few messages. I just finished _Remnant Population_ (finally!). Someone earlier had mentioned that they felt most (some?) characters were somewhat one-dimensional. I agree. Even Ofelia came to seem predictable. Still, I liked the plot and an elderly hero. I was especially interesting in the end during which Ofelia realizes and admits to Blue Cloak that she was not a good nest guardian for her own children. The scene in which she remembers discouraging her children from expressing curiosity was probably the most moving of all. Often, adults forget how intense life is for children, I think. Finally, she had a character flaw (probably culturally based) other than not believing she and her dreams deserved existence and expression. I had some trouble buying into in the final behavior of the leader of the "first contact" team. The continued statement that Ofelia (and other old women) were worthless and beneath notice became grating and repetitive. Elizabeth Moon had an elderly woman character (Aunt Lydia) in a series of her novels (centered on Captain Serrano). I liked both Lydia and Serrano, and was disappointed to read in a later that Lydia had had rejuvenation treatments and suddenly appeared to be a young woman of 40 or so. (Lydia hadn't sought the treatments for cosmetic purposes, nor was she looking for a fountain of youth). Tomorrow brings the _Mission Child_ discussion, as well as the one for _Grass_ doesn't it? I'll have to re-read to find how to address messages. Until then-- Lindy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:38:38 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG: Grass discussion begins Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Time to start talking about Grass. Seems the list was very quiet over the weekend, but I heard that internet access from the east coast US was sporadic on Friday and perhaps that was the problem. So let's start in on Grass. What did you think? This book stands on its own, although there are two related stories that follow it. I suppose we should take care to not spoil anything revealed in later books (Raising the Stones, and Sideshow). I've meant to re-read this book since it's been years since I read it originally, but haven't managed to open it yet. So my initial comments are from memory. I vividly remember being scared by the malevolence of the beings used as "mounts" in the "hunt". And I remember skipping over much of the religious stuff. I'm really looking foward to some analysis of this book! Might be interesting to compare this to the Sparrow - any comments? How do you think this compares to other Tepper works? Stronger, weaker, typical? Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:02:05 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 03 May 1999 11:38:38 PDT." <19990503184946444.AAA198.241@jennifer.actioneer.com> Well, I reread WotEoT this past week because of all your comments--so thank you. Let me try and put my thoughts in order. First, on the subject of Connie's records, which confused some readers as to whether she really was crazy or not (even aside from the definition). I think not. I did a lot of research on the evolution of the medical record a couple of years ago, and a great fdeal of the "progress" that's been made has to do with giving less validity to the opinion of the doctor. Like the way they kept saying, "Oh, you're giving a diagnosis?" when patients complained of headache! Look at the record: "The parent was incoherent, weeping, and exhibited bizarre behavior" [after having accidentally broken her beloved daughter's wrist] "Denies suicidal ideation. Denies delusions or hallucinations." [The *assumption* being that you can't take her word for it.] "The patient claimes not have have had any relations with men...doesn't admit any relations with women either..." I could go on and on, but you know what I mean. Many of the incidents mentioned were explained at some point in the text (the bus station after her escape, the sevens, etc). I thought she really was travelling in time, but to a future which might or might not happen, depending on the events of Connie's time. But I think we're meant to have to make up our own minds. Mattapoisett: I loved it. I know someone thought it was "too" idyllic, but it seemed to me that there were plenty of problems, but a group of people who were committed to working through those problems. Remember Luciente and Bolivar's "worming"? There's jealousy, there's unfairness, but there's a massive investment of time and energy in fixing it. If we each had a dozen good friends to talk us through our personal conflicts, wouldn't we do better? And all those meetings! Right out of the life of an activist in the 70s. :) It made me think at once of one of Piercy's poems, "Report of the 14th Subcommittee on Convening a Discussion Group", which I love and will try to remember to quote a piece of at the end of this mail. Other things that made me think: what did you all think of the fact that she chose an "unreceptive" person to see the future? All of us have at least enough technical access and ability to be on this list--only once you have all the technology is it easy to see that you might not want it. I love the idea that you can live "rurally" but still have as some of the conveniences of technology; I love the idea that we can pick and choose and do the work that makes you grow and learn, but not the work that demeans you and wears you do. But today we still have the dichotomy, poor=rural, rich=technology/cities, and so it was fascinating to see a person who'd learned that success meant moving towards technology, visiting a future where today's markers of failure were in fact the *goal*. Does it amaze anyone else that this book seems so contemporary and relevant 25 years later? I wasn't even born when this book was written. jessie >From _Report of the 14th..._: This is true virtue: to sit here and stay awake, to listen, to argue, to wade on through the muck wrestling to some momentary small agreement like a pinhead pearl prized from a dragon-oyster. I believe in this democracy as I believe there is blood in my veins, but oh, oh, in me lurks a tyrant with a double-bladed ax who longs to swing it wide and shining, who longs to stand and shriek, You Shall Do as I Say, pig-bastards. No more committees but only picnics and orgies and dances. I have spoken. So be it forevermore. --Marge Piercy, "Mars and her Children", 1992, Alfred A. Knopf. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:24:42 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: WotEoT As an additional tidbit:you can check out Marge's homepage at: http://www.capecod.net/~tmpiercy/index.html Under "New Projects" this group might especially be interested in "Early Grrrl", which had this summary: The 'Grrrl' phenomenon is a contemporary expression of female joy and rage exploding in books and zines, concerts, films and the internet. In homage to a new generation of young feminists, Marge Piercy presents a gathering of new poems and out-of-print favorites that reveal the poet as an early 'Grrrl.' jessie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 23:06:59 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: BDG: Grass MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, I just finished re-reading it tonight. I liked it just as much as I did the first time, years ago. I, too, was spellbound by the malevolence of the mounts. And I think comparing it to "The Sparrow" as in: compare/contrast is appropriate. In both books, the main character's actions are motivated by the character's faith in of the Catholic religion, as they understand it. However, I think Marjorie grows, while what's-his-face doesn't. (I also think Grass has a feminist pov, while The Sparrow doesn't.) Marjorie becomes a recovering Catholic, while the other guy tries stubbornly to cling to and give lip service to a faith that has deserted him. He doesn't go on and gain any higher understandings. Marjorie is able to let go, release, and start a new, positive life. Although, personally, it wouldn't have taken me nearly as long as it did take her to say, "Frankly, my dear........" , I wouldn't have done it with near the amount of grace she displayed. Sharon L. Anderson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:27:49 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Grass This was the best Tepper book I've read so far. It's like a fine painting, so full of detail that one could look at it for hours a day and find something new continually. The mind control of the hippae forcing the aristocracy to hunt the foxen and the sexual satisfaction at the kill was such a powerful aspect of the book. I kept hoping the foxen weren't sentient since the killing was so perfectly described. The casual assumption the commoners had that the aristocracy were inept at real life seemed to mirror those same feelings of the worker class vs. the owner class. I'm usually not drawn to descriptions of locality, but how could you resist the picture of multi-hued, multi level grass gardens? Tepper expertly wound the story lines round and round and tied everything together like a good cup of coffee after a perfect meal. In fact, I'm surprised she had the courage to write anything after this book it is so completely complete. If this had been a romance novel, Rigo would have been quite the catch: brooding, dark and powerful. If his inability to relate personally to women moved him out of the way of king of the prom, then Sylvan would have been the obvious replacement: also brooding but gentle and romantic. I was thrilled that Marjorie ended up with First, the sex scene was perfect, the idea of sharing telepathically with this strange creature was wonderful, yet the more human testing that they put each other through made an entirely rounded and reciprocal relationship. When Marjorie dismissed a romance with Sylvan by saying that her marriage (to a philanderer who had no respect for her as a person) was her religion I was so angry I had to put the book down for a bit. But that tied in perfectly with the main theme of the book, some people suffer from "terminal conscientiousness...Scrupulousness of the kind that creates conditions making poverty and illness inevitable, then congratulates itself over feeding the poor and caring for the sick." By obeying the tenants of the church as completely as she could she made herself and her family miserable, yet she didn't stop coming back for more until she got a full understanding of the arbai, the hippae and the foxen. Tepper's views of the limits of consensual action contrasted with the endless, yet ultimately beneficial, meetings in Piercy's utopia. The foxen debated and debated and debated but were unable to take the drastic actions necessary to preserve themselves or the humans until prodded by Marjorie and First. The arbai, those beneficent beings, died out because they suffered from being "too good to do good." Tepper's disdain for organized religion is consistent throughout the books of hers I've read. Living in the west, I guess she's had enough interaction with the Mormons that they feature prominently. I wonder if she's suffered for that. After Grass and Gibbon's Decline and Fall I would think she wouldn't be too highly recommended at BYU. There were only two things that I felt a little disappointed in. Since I had read Decline and Fall first, I was surprised that there was only one main female character, yet so many main men. They were well drawn, and Marjorie was perfect in her growth, but how good it would have been for Rowena or the doctor to have had larger roles. Oops, and it's 2 am and I forgot what the second disappointment was. It must not have been too large. I had no idea there were other books in the series. I have Sideshow and plan, somehow, to get a copy of Raising the Stones. I want to stay in this universe a while. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:54:11 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Mission Child In-Reply-To: <002101be9610$622e57c0$6cc9fcd0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Is everyone still interested in discussing *Mission Child*? I hate to be the one to start things off because, frankly, I didn't like the book very much. At first, I couldn't pinpoint what was so frustrating about this book then I realized that the main charater wasn't just "primitive" and uneducated but seemed to be, well... stupid. I think if the story had been told from a number of viewpoints I might have liked it better but sticking with Janna/Jan for the entire book was very irritating. Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:20:52 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Carol Ann Kerry-Green Subject: Re: BDG Grass In-Reply-To: <002101be9610$622e57c0$6cc9fcd0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I read this book many years ago, and have reread it since, but not recently, it was the first Tepper I read, and it led me on to many more wonderful novels. I don't have a copy of Grass, so will have to rely on memory. For me, Marjorie is one of Tepper's strongest characters. I loved the descriptions in this book, I loved the atmosphere. I can't really remember much more about it, in any detail, but I'm off to the library on Saturday, and hopefully they'll still have a copy! Carol Ann Hull, E Yorks UK ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 12:10:28 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jean Bocchino Subject: mission child Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I didn't finish this book. I didn't have much sympathy for Janna/Jan who just seemed to be at the mercy of whatever circumstances she/he found himself in. I am curious now, though, to know if this was the whole point and if Janna/Jan finally makes some choices in her/his life at the end.....guess I'll have to go back and finish it now! regards JB ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 13:19:58 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: BDG Grass MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joyce Jones wrote: > I had no idea there were other books in the series. I have Sideshow and > plan, somehow, to get a copy of Raising the Stones. I want to stay in this > universe a while. > Both books are great! I think GRass and Raising the Stones are my favorite Teppers. However, I just thought I'd mention that "series" is a pretty strong word where these three books are concerned. While small elements recur, I believe the arbai come up again and Marjorie is referred to fleetingly, the "sequels" stand up just fine on their own and the overlap is quite minor, as I remember. More on Grass later. Still Re-reading! Susan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:24:58 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lindy Lovvik Subject: Re: Mission Child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stacey Holbrook wrote: > Is everyone still interested in discussing *Mission Child*? I hate to be > the one to start things off because, frankly, I didn't like the book very > much. At first, I couldn't pinpoint what was so frustrating about this > book then I realized that the main charater wasn't just "primitive" and > uneducated but seemed to be, well... stupid. I think if the story had been > told from a number of viewpoints I might have liked it better but sticking > with Janna/Jan for the entire book was very irritating. I am still interested in discussing _Mission Child_. I simply haven't finished it yet. Spoilers aren't necessary for me, though. Is anyone else still reading? One thing that threw me a bit was the fact that I had read the first section/chapter in an SF short story anthology a few months ago. Once I figured out that I wasn't psychic , I was able to sit still and read. For me, the beginning is difficult because of the agonies of war and the difficulties of being a refugee. I am enjoying it more now that Janna has enough to eat. I am going to read the rest of this novel with your suggestion regarding point(s) of view. Sometimes I do want to shake Janna/Jan, but I haven't gotten to the point where she's an idiot. I don't feel that the writing style makes "reader closeness" to the main character easy. I feel distanced somehow. Anyway, I have to go to work (and get the car fixed, and go to the doctor's and. . . ) so I may not be able to participate much with this discussion until tomorrow or Thursday. Later, Lindy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 00:11:05 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: donna simone Subject: Re: Mission Child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, I have a clear purpose. To win readers over to this book. I find it to be an exquisite piece of work. Allow me to digress to establish setting for my own reading. In 1978 I took a feminist film course. It changed my life. To this day, I am unsure that I completely understand the films I saw, but I remember what I learned about feminist film. The women directors of cinema during that period were trying primarily to interrupt the traditions of semiotics and film-making while also telling _women's stories_. That was what had gotten them deemed feminist. One film I have not forgotten is 'Cleo de 5 a 7' by Agnes Varda. Simple story: woman is waiting for results from a test for cancer. A familiar tragic issue ripe for traditional dramatic film treatment. Why were we watching it? Not for the subject. We watched it for the _way_ it was filmed. Varda filmed the story in real time. The audience saw Cleo live her life for two hours. >From 5 to 7. Every little mundane thing that happened, and every tragic thing. In real time. It was at the time very radical to tell a story in film in real time. Varda was intentionally interrupting the traditional or expected discourse of film narrative. And as importantly, to tell the story of a critical event in a _woman's_ life. I assert here that McHugh, in all of her works but especially in Mission Child, is radically interrupting the traditions and assumptions, or tropes if you will, of science fiction narrative. I would claim this as my own unique interpretation except that I recently discovered that McHugh says as much in her essays on her web site. (for the curious few: http://www.en.com/users/mcq/writ.html ) How is she doing this? By using a very well realized "unreliable narrator", by telling us the story in something akin to 'real time' for literature, by telling us the story in painfully mundane detail - much of it that seems unimportant, by giving us an "unheroic" heroine who seems "stupid"....Does anyone see other ways that McHugh disrupts our expectations as readers? That is what I love about MC, the many ways that McHugh refuses to make me comfortable or to give me what I think I want. Another is how she portrays the gender shifting. Again, I will claim that she disrupts our expectations. Jan/Janna shifts her presentation of herself to gain for herself strength and protection and power. She alters her presentation of herself to increase her agency and her access within the ever changing social milieus she passes through and must survive within. Okay, you are saying, that is not so new, women have done this for ages. But on how many occasions have we been presented a character that has absolutely no _need_ to resolve the gender issues the "passing" has stirred up? Jan/Janna is transformed by the period of "passing' into something wholly new. Someone who refuses, and does not need to make, any clear choice or resolution to what "gender" to be. Or perhaps I am mistaken, does anyone know of other SFF characters that end up in similar mindset as Jan/Janna about their own gender? Finally, in her use of language, McHugh again disrupts our expectation or desire for comfort. Jan/Janna seldom is interacting with people that speak the same language. We as readers are made to experience that reality as Jan/Janna does. It is frustrating and confusing. Just as it must be for anyone journeying through numerous societies all of which have their own unique languages. We readers are not given much more than what Jan/Janna gets in regard to conversation/interaction. And we definitely spend considerable amounts of time reading of everyone's confusions over language. Imagine what it must be like in a refugee camp for a planet of many scattered but unique/distinct tribes? Or trying to save people from a killing disease when there is no shared language? One would struggle considerable sorting out how to survive when one is reduced to pictures and pointing and just showing someone how to accomplish something. How McHugh uses language and communication powerfully drove home for me Jan/Janna's level of isolation and frustration. And sense of loneliness and futility. I would come away from my periods of reading MC feeling detached and alone and despairing. Like Jan/Janna. Brilliantly cathartic work. Finally, for this post, despite all of these tactics of disruption, McHugh has succeeded in creating a character that I have come to love. Jan/Janna is a character I find myself wishing to emulate - the resolve, the persistence, the humanity, the incredible will to live, the brilliance, (yes, I saw brilliance where others may see stupidity), the political acuity, the compassion, the empathy......I could go on. When, towards the end of the book, we and Jan/Janna learn why the baby was lost.....I was howling with completely shared anguish. McHugh has gotten inside my heart with this character. I remain smitten. I have gone on far too long. I will close by offering a review from another reader who admires this book - L. Timmel Duchamp (http://www.halcyon.com/ltimmel/mission.html ) Perhaps it will offer a different reading to those who have been sorely dissatisfied with MC. I am yet to read this review entirely because I am still savouring my own deep pleasure with this book. I imagine I will be back with more commentary soon. donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 00:48:45 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: Mission child Lindy wrote: >>I don't feel that the writing style makes "reader closeness" to the main character easy. I feel distanced somehow.<< I agree. I didn't feel personally close to Jan/Janna because the style is kind of like a documentary or like someone writing a deposition: "This happened, I saw that, we got this and went there and then something else happened" I liked the style. It was very immediate and so made for a better understanding of what the characters were going through. That wonderful Time cover of the breastfeeding Kosovo refugee gave me an understanding of the pain and devastation of fleeing one's home. Mission Child really made it clear (as clear as one can to a person who has always had enough food and blankets and has never been shot at). In spite of the deadened emotional style, I could feel how it would be to keep walking and walking and walking. I could feel saving the fleeing children as long as she could, then letting them go. I could feel her looking at her dead mother who had no pants on. I could feel her looking at the dead man and taking his possessions, and I could understand that, starving as she and Aslak were, neither of them thought to eat him. I think it takes an extraordinary leap to eat another human being and, worn out and famished as she and Aslak were, they were young and maybe at that point they weren't able to make that leap. I could feel so much of Jan/Janna's plight, even though the style never tried to force me to connect with her any more than she would have tried to convince anyone to connect with her. I don't think she was stupid at all. She thought to keep their possessions and skis on her back pack. She kept her eyes open and reacted in the moment. She didn't think ahead, she didn't make many plans maybe because her life was so full of unexpected struggles, maybe because she just was not an introspective kind of person. I think that's why she had so little soul searching over her gender. It was safer for a while in the refugee camps to be a man, so she was a man. Then after a while, I didn't think of her as a man, I thought of him. It was like he just fell into being a man, it was working, so he kept at it. But when offered the opportunity for an actual sex change s/he wasn't willing to make such a permanent commitment. S/he took a bit here, a bit there and didn't have a need to be more. I got this from Maureen McHugh's web page, and it sums up the book: "The idea that we all have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is a political one, not a biological one. I don't think wild rabbits, for example, have much happiness. I think most of the time they're anxious about being eaten. I have yet to be convinced the unhappiness may not be the human condition. I'm hopeful it's not." Jan/Janna just lived. S/he had some happiness, a great deal of duty and hard work, at last some loving interpersonal relationships, s/he didn't ask for more. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 15:18:01 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Grass - Online References MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT I started to read _Grass_ again but am not yet finished. But the atmosphere in the first chapters already captivated me. How could I have forgotten? But for a start I can offer some online references on Sheri Tepper: - Laura Quilter's website on Tepper with bibliography http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/authors/tepper.html Comments on Tepper's book at the FSFFU website at http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/authors.html#tepper - A tributsite by Tragamor (?) http://www.tragamor.freeserve.co.uk/sst/sst.html Whoever owned this site gave _Grass_ 4 of 5 stars. - Tepper answers questions at EOSCON II, an Online SF & Fantasy Convention on 30th January, 1999 http://www.e-horizon.com/eoscon2/tepper.html They still offer to forward questions to Tepper who promised to answer them. I already quoted once on the (old) list from this 'interview'. But I think it is appropriate to repeat it now: 'Q: Your most recent books have focused on ecology and feminism. Are there topics and issues you have not written about that you want to, or are there issues in which you are interested but will not write about? A: I feel that ecology is the single most important issue in the world today. We will either preserve or destroy the world within the next century. Feminism is a preoccupation because I am still feeling my own female youth, a far different one from that of today's young women in the west, but one that identifies strongly with the women of certain Islamic and Asian countries. Women are still enslaved in large numbers in the world today; it is still wrong; there is still too little being done about it. I feel that we have taken the wrong philosophical track in our approach to crime and punishment, and that until we get off it, we will be unable to make necessary changes in the way we treat both victims and criminals. I have written some on this, and there is a good bit of it in The Fresco. ' Unfortunately I know only one English review of _Grass_, a short, rather unfavourable review by Danny Yee which I quote fully in the following: http://www.anatomy.usyd.edu.au/danny/book-reviews/h/Grass.html 'Grass is a science fiction novel in what I call the "ecological" sub-genre: there is something unusual about the ecology of an alien planet, and unless Homo sapiens (or the right group of Homo sapiens) finds out what it is quickly... - in this case the human race will be wiped out. This basic idea is implemented reasonably well, though as usual the biology is not terribly well worked out. The novel has another strand, a kind of pseudo-religious working out of ideas about the ultimate purpose of human existence, that doesn't really work at all. Too many of the ideas are presented explicitly (in the narrated thoughts of characters) rather than appearing as an organic part of the story. Ideas aside, Grass is a reasonably well written novel with a decent plot. If you are into light science fiction it should keep you happily entertained for some hours. ' Then I know two more German reviews. One by Heike Brand ( http://www.flash-zine.de/flash029/h_5918.htm ) thinks _Grass_ strenous reading especially because of the many 'foreign words' (a specialty of German as far as I can tell) and the many descriptions. In total she called the book inspired but criticizes the German translation. Furthermore Brand points out that 'Sanctity' apparently stands for 'Scientology', something that I had missed. The second German review by Ch. Plötz ( http://www.bubis.com/muaddib/sfrez_t.htm#Tepper1 ) is IMO extremely condescending. Plötz thinks that the books is too much infused by feminism and Marjorie Westriding too ideal to be true. Nonetheless he recommends the book ('no classic, but good entertainment'). Does anybody know other online reviews of _Grass_? Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:02:19 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: BDG: Grass Comments: To: shander@CDSNET.NET In-Reply-To: <372E9C92.DF1FC892@cdsnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" OK. I recently finished Grass. Along with several other Teppers in a row. Unfortunately I think I may have *overdosed* on Tepper! Unfortunately, I'm left with a feeling of repetition of themes and characters. Emphasis on eco-feminism, religion, and women characters who seem to always be turning into martyrs, or trying to escape a lifetime of having been martyrs. Grass was one of Teppers best though:) Even though I liked the first half much more than the second half. The mystery surrounding the mounts was so skilfully done, I had no idea until we, the readers, are shown through Marjorie's eyes what they really were. I loved the mystery feeling concerning the dead bats, the disappearances of the young girls and how the foxen and other life-forms all fitted together. I particularly loved the message shown by the foxen, and the extinct Arbai, that "all debate-no action" or racial suicide in the name of non-violence, can sometimes be just as stupid, illogical and terrible as violent war. On the negative side - possibly because it is a recurring theme of Tepper's, or possibly because its just feels "overdone" - I was disappointed by the caricatures of Catholicism - On the other hand, perhaps it is a personal life-issue thing, because I personally have had very little experience of any form of institutionalised religion in my life, and find it difficult to identify with it being a major political force. I was also disappointed by the strained nature of the mother-daughter relationships in Tepper's works, contrasted with the mother-son relationships. Someone else posted about feeling disappointed at the lack of detailed characterisation of secondary women characters in Grass, which I echo - but have to add that the other women characters, particularly those closest to the heroine, like daughters, are often painted as shallow and selfish - or misguided fools. Its unfortunate, because it does detract from what is otherwise a solid feminist novel. Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:52:37 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Mission Child In-Reply-To: <001c01be96ad$4d5cf980$7db11b26@donna> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 5 May 1999, donna simone wrote: (snip) > How is she doing this? By using a very well realized "unreliable > narrator", by telling us the story in something akin to 'real time' > for literature, by telling us the story in painfully mundane detail - > much of it that seems unimportant, by giving us an "unheroic" heroine > who seems "stupid"....Does anyone see other ways that McHugh disrupts > our expectations as readers? I did enjoy the writing style, I could see what she was trying to do. It just didn't work for me because I really couldn't care about Jan/na. McHugh was very good at giving crystalline moments of clarity-- but those moments were realized by -me- more often than Jan/na. At first it was interesting to know more about what was going on than Jan/na but after a while it got to be really annoying. (snip) > Okay, you are saying, that is not so new, women have done this for > ages. But on how many occasions have we been presented a character > that has absolutely no _need_ to resolve the gender issues the > "passing" has stirred up? Jan/Janna is transformed by the period of > "passing' into something wholly new. Someone who refuses, and does not > need to make, any clear choice or resolution to what "gender" to be. Jan/na doesn't resolve anything. She never makes any clear choices about her gender because she never makes any clear choices about anything. She seldom really thinks about anything or tries to think things through That is one of my many problems with this character. During the first 2/3 of the book she allows everyone else to make decisions for her-- first Aslak and then Mika. After she tells Mika that she is a woman, his attitude towards her shifts radically. This doesn't prevent her from continuing a relationship with him, though. He starts pressuring her to become more female and she allows herself to be talked into removing all her body hair and wearing a ridiculous dress. I strongly feel that if the Mika character had lived she would have ended up removing the implant and becoming fully female again. One of the reasons she never resolves her gender identity is because after Mika dies there is no one left to pressure her to choose who she is going to be. And I probably should mention here that the *Mission Child* feels like two completely different stories to me. There is a big gap in time between Janna running away from the Shaman and the time she arrives in the South. The Jan of the second part of the book is different (older more experienced) from the young Jan/na of the first half. But underneath there is the same Jan/na that drifts along. I'm afraid that the ending rang completely false for me when Jan finally makes a real choice-- to realize hir lifelong dream of becoming a gardener (sorry for the sarcasm). > Finally, for this post, despite all of these tactics of disruption, > McHugh has succeeded in creating a character that I have come to love. > Jan/Janna is a character I find myself wishing to emulate - the > resolve, the persistence, the humanity, the incredible will to live, > the brilliance, (yes, I saw brilliance where others may see > stupidity), the political acuity, the compassion, the empathy......I > could go on. You must have been reading a completely different character-- or possibly you are describing the older Jan from the last 1/3 of the book. She has little resolve about anything. And persistence? She tries to kill herself twice and the only reason she doesn't succeed is because of the survey kit that was forced on her. Compassion? She treats the Shaman rather cruelly and is only nice to those who can define her (Aslak, Mika). She only helps the plague victims because she has a sort of death wish and she was running away from a possible relationship with the salesman. Was she "humane" to the little boy she helped to save? No, once he is well she drops him like a toy that she has grown bored with. She was more than happy to let someone else take him even though she had promised to care for him herself. And you will have to go a loooong way to convince me of her brilliance. > When, towards the end of the book, we and Jan/Janna learn why the baby > was lost.....I was howling with completely shared anguish. Jan showed more anguish for her daughter when she thought that the woman in the virtual headset contained the ghost of her daughter. When she learns the truth about why her daughter died it is anticlimactic. You made some good points and I will have to think about them some more. I didn't totally hate the book. McHugh has a wonderful visual style-- she can make you "see" what she is describing. And even her secondary characters are well drawn. Even though Jan/na seldom felt compassion for anyone -I- felt it for many of the people that Jan/na encountered. > donna > donnaneely@earthlink.net Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:17:27 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Mission child In-Reply-To: <000801be96cb$b5b4b900$71c9fcd0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 5 May 1999, Joyce Jones wrote: (snip) > I don't think she was stupid at all. She thought to keep their > possessions and skis on her back pack. She kept her eyes open and > reacted in the moment. She didn't think ahead, she didn't make many > plans maybe because her life was so full of unexpected struggles, > maybe because she just was not an introspective kind of person. It is not that she is merely "not introspective" she just doesn't think about anything. How many clues does she need to figure out that Mika is dealing drugs? And she doesn't -once- think about what would happen to her if she is caught with those drugs in her locker. It never -once- occurs to her to become a Shaman-- a profession that would have brought her respect, gotten her into a new clan and where cross-dressing is accepted. She is practically handed an education and an engineering career on a silver platter and she walks away from it. As for carrying the skis-- she did what she thought -Aslak- would have wanted her to. I'm sorry, I really wish I could have liked Jan/na more. I tried, I really did. Considering all of the hell that she had been through you would think that she would put safety and stability above anything else. After a while I thought she would be better off if she could have had a long talk with Scarlet O'Hara: "As God is my witness, I will never go hungry again." Jan/na could have used a bit of that resolve. > Joyce > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:21:59 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marge Simpson Subject: Re: Mission Child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Donna Simone wrote: "How McHugh uses language and communication powerfully drove home for me Jan/Janna's level of isolation and frustration. And sense of loneliness and futility. I would come away from my periods of reading MC feeling detached and alone and despairing. Like Jan/Janna." When I finished reading Mission Child months ago, I put the book down feeling disappointed & depressed. The first few weeks after reading, I did not like the book. But it kept nagging at me and I kept thinking about it...and I think what Donna said here expresses beautifully how I feel about McHugh's work, though I don't think I love the book like Donna does. I recognize it for it's brilliance, but I still don't enjoy the feeling her books can give me. I had to see the book as something different from what I usually read before I could appreciate it. Ann _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:48:58 +0200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Giacomo Conserva Subject: BDG Grass: on-line reviews MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE9730.511F9040" Messaggio a piů sezioni in formato MIME. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE9730.511F9040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm sending as an attachment Amazon's page of customer comments, as usual quite interesting. Giacomo Conserva ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE9730.511F9040 Content-Type: text/html; name="002-1496398-1696048b.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="002-1496398-1696048b.html" Amazon.com: Customer Comments: Grass
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=20 Avg. Customer Review: 3D"4.5 ;=20 =20 Number of Reviews: = 11

Andy Heiz = (ishky@ix.netcom.com) from Flushing, NY , April 3, 1999 3D"4
Absorbing, well crafted and = timely
I discovered this book from a poster to = rec.backcountry has a quote from this book in her sig. After seeing the = quote several times I went out and bought the book and was glad I did. = Sheri Tepper has written a novel which is deep in character and full of = imagination. This is a book to savor, enjoyed and pondered. One passage = in particular sums up God better than all the religions have in all the = thousands of years of religion. But I won't tell you where it is, read = for yourself and discover it on your own. It is well worth is.

= speedwel@leland.stanford.edu from Palo Alto , November 14, 1998 3D"5
couldn't put it down =
I absolutely could not put this book down. It was mesmerizing and = totally believable biologically. The characters were very = multidimentional and the landscape was so vividly described it became a = character of its own.

ardatha@eznet.net = from Upstate New York , April 12, 1998 3D"5
One of the all time greatest = books of Science Fiction
I have read this book so many = times I practically have it committed to memory. This is probably the = best book ever written by Sheri S. Tepper, and maybe one of the best = science fiction books ever written. One of the things I like best about = it is her use of horses and the parody of the sport of fox hunting. That = is only one small part of this book, though. There are numerous sub = plots which could make this a difficult book to read, but Ms. Tepper = handles it with such facility that it reads very smoothly. I really = recommend this book, especially if you like horses, too! --This text = refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

= katharn@avalon.net = from Iowa City , February 22, 1998 3D"5
Sheri Tepper is quite the = storyteller
It's interesting to me that this woman was = born in 1929 & didn't begin to publish until she retired in 1986. = She can certainly catch you up in a plot. I enjoyed GRASS as well as = Gate to Women's Country & Family Tree. I'm looking forward to = reading others. I also have enjoyed mysteries she writes under pen name = Orde. Her protaganist there, Jason, seems a very nice man. I have = enjoyed the Amazon collection of reviews of this book. I would like to = hear from the reader who gave it a 7 about authors she recommends that = develop the theology better. Tepper did miss a great opportunity to = enlighten Protestant readers better on original sin. Many do think it = has something to do with sin committed by our antecedents. The best = phrase I know to define original sin is "human nature being what it = is..."

A = reader from La Verne, California , October 24, 1997 3D"5
Intrigue, Creatures both = terrifying & wondrous - visit Grass
Unlike many fantasy = or science fiction books you may see on the shelves today, Sheri Tepper = creates a world that is thought provoking and provides a mystery of = sorts you may not uncover until the very end. The characters are strong = and independent. There is a plague affecting all planets except for = Grass...why? What caused it, or who? This planet has its own history, = cultures, and mysteries. Explore Grass and discover for yourself.

= A reader , September 10, = 1997 3D"4
Engaging and = imaginative, but lacking in religious insight
Grass is = unquestionably first-rate science fiction: a well-crafted story of = engaging ideas and characters in a vividly imagined universe. The book = is almost worth reading solely for its exceptionally imaginative world = and ecosystems -- easily in the same league as Dune and the Helliconia = series. I'd begun to lose interest in science fiction, but Grass = reminded me of just how engrossing the genre can be.

So why a rating = of 7? One of my pet peeves about science fiction is its frequent = ignorance in religious matters, and Grass is at times yet another = example of this. It's not simply that Tepper tells some theological = "whoppers" (e.g. her explanation of original sin), but that = her insight never goes beyond the superficial. The central characters = are supposedly devoted "Old Catholics," yet Tepper's portrayal = of their "faith" never gets any deeper than the typical = pasteboard cutout stereotypes. When the idea of a postmodern-type = nihilist group was introduced and their motive discussed, I began to = wonder if I'd underestimated her insightfulness, but it proved a false = hope when later the group turned out to be nothing more than = stereotypical crazed religious fanatics who were in fact anything but = nihilistic. None of this might matter if not for two things: 1) = Religious issues have a central place in the story, so a superficial = understanding of them is not a trivial flaw; and 2) Since a turning = point in the story is a character's faith being shaken, having that = faith be totally insubstantial is a serious strain on believability.

= The bottom line: A first-rate read, but with some flaws in its religious = facets.

A reader = , August 3, 1997 3D"5
Vivid, = touching, long-lived
I recently had to order another five = copies of this book to send to friends; no other book is such an = ambassador of science fiction, able to reach people who "hate" = sci-fi. Tepper's characters are vivid, her worlds are distinct, and the = book carries you so carefully onward and upward that you don't realize = how far you've gone into her story until you have to set it down. This = book is a gift.

A = reader , March 21, 1997 3D"5
= Engaging and thoughtful exploration of human bias.
With = rich characterizations and the ability to interest me in the = environment, Grass also found ways to surprise me in the end. This is = not a typical science fiction/fantasy book at all. Tepper has an = incredible grasp of observing how we humans observe our surroundings = through our biased filters based on prejudices and foundations of = "knowledge".

= A reader , January 21, 1997 3D"5
= An absorbing exploration of religion and culture.
Grass = is an exceptionally absorbing and thought-provoking science = fiction/fantasy novel. Tepper creates a world that is wholly believable, = and uses it as a forum to explore contemporary concerns, particularly = those related to religion and humanity's relationship to other species. = Tepper takes up similar questions in "Raising the Stones," a = which is almost--but not quite--a sequel to "Grass." For = readers unfamiliar with the genre, this is an excellent introduction; = for those who are confirmed fans of science fiction and fantasy, Grass = is further proof that this genre allows acute analysis of our own world = and its challenges.

= A reader , November 20, 1996 3D"5
= This author's best book to date
Grass is an incredibly = rich book, with intense descriptions and characterizations. The aliens = are complex and surprising; the environment so real, you will swear you = can smell and hear the grass... This book is my first choice to = introduce science fiction to reader friends who want works which provoke = thought, and demand involvement from the reader. It has no special = theme, unlike other of Ms. Tepper's books, which may focus on the = meaning of religion, feminism, or environmentalism. It is simply = excellent storytelling, and outstanding science fiction.

A reader , November 20, = 1996 3D"4
An accessible book = to judge this author
There's no doubt (to me) that this = author has an important place in SF. I like to recommend her, but shy = away from suggesting "The True Game" or "The Door into = Womens Country" because I worry that that the reader would have to = really, really like fantasy or feminist themes. Grass has depth and = magic and shows why this author can grip the reader. It has the added = advantage that I would expect the general reader, perhaps even your = English teacher would like it.


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------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE9730.511F9040-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 21:19:51 +0200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lassnig MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01BE973D.03129020" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BE973D.03129020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SET FEMINISTSF-LIT DIGEST ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BE973D.03129020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
SET FEMINISTSF-LIT=20 DIGEST
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BE973D.03129020-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 21:43:09 +0200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Giacomo Conserva Subject: BDG Grass: the pearls and rubies of the soul MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For almost two months I've been living in Sheri Tepper's universe (of course other things are taking place: a war...)- first 'Sideshow', then 'Grass', and now 'Raising the stones'. It is such a rich universe, so tender and hard, so full of drama and melodrama, of ingenuousness and inventivity. In 'Grass' her gifts are manifest: it is difficult to forget the silent unending chase, the shocking orgasms, the palaces and towers, the gardens, the climbers. The plot vicissitudes and the uncanny background have remineded me of Charles Harness (has anybody read 'The paradox men' or 'The ring of Ritornel'?), just like some movements of her prose mirror Cordwainer Smith (this, I think, is true of 'Sideshow'); but there is no speaking of imitation, and I mention this only to remark how literate, how self-conscious I find her. And it is evident that she is writing in this here world, with the fundamentalisms and the slums and the multiple waves of destruction which circle around us and inside us. I find not the least touching aspect her portrayal of Marjorie's activities on earth- a volunteer social worker of sorts, modest and honest and brave- before her taking off to the stars, to a planet so ominous as Grass and to a fabulous dragon being at the very end (dragons have a genealogy of their own in sf: think of Anne Mc Caffrey and of Neveryon)- of course, Sheri Tepper has spent a large part of her life as a social worker, does one have to mention this, so Marjorie's indignation and hope is in some way really Sheri's own. And everything develops smoothly and unexpectedly like in some late medieval half allegorical tale towards an only barely possible liberation- before the next book, the next turn of the story, the next gift given to us. Giacomo Conserva ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 22:17:25 +0200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lassnig MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B8_01BE9745.0E2388E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B8_01BE9745.0E2388E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >SET FEMINISTSF-LIT DIGEST Sorry, promise I'll get it right next time... ------=_NextPart_000_00B8_01BE9745.0E2388E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>SET FEMINISTSF-LIT = DIGEST
 
Sorry, promise I'll get it right next=20 time...
------=_NextPart_000_00B8_01BE9745.0E2388E0-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:41:57 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: BDG - GRASS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This was my first "real" Tepper if you will. I'd read the Marianne and True Game books before this, but they didn't properly prepare me for the complexity and depth of GRASS.Who knew the kind of devoted Tepper reader I'd become? I really need to win the lottery so I can do nothing but read books, listserves and my email. Maryelizabeth -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 619.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 619.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:15:13 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Frances Subject: Re: BDG - GRASS A minor detail that struck me on first reading "Grass" was that Marjorie had inherited her title by virtue of being the firstborn. I can't think of any title that currrently descends to a female if there is an available male, and many exclude the female (bad ol' Salic Law). A male friend enjoyed the book enormously, but commented that Rigo was seen almost exclusively in "angry" mode. I thought that he generally was, especially in his interactions with Marjorie, but did this bother anyone else? I wasn't troubled by the portrayal of Stella, but I feel this, and the contrasting sympathy with Tony, may have been a perhaps too deliberate device to "balance" the male-female interactions within the family. I loved the poignant description of Marjorie trying to persuade Rigo to lie still so that she could get to know him as she got to know the colt, instead of always sexually overwhelming her. These are just a few minor thoughts: Grass is such a wonderful book on so many levels. Frances ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 23:04:22 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Syela Shratdeshm Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: Mission Child MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Stacey Holbrook writes: SH>At first, I couldn't pinpoint what was so frustrating about this SH>book then I realized that the main charater wasn't just "primitive" SH>and uneducated but seemed to be, well... stupid. I can agree that [s]he's primitive and stupid. Uneducated I can't agree with. She speaks several languages, and is given more credit for speaking English than I could believe. She also has some technical skills (presumably; her work at the factory is detailed not at all) and a full range of pre-agricultural skills. And she knows about such obscure things as the chirality of amino acids as well. Yet she seems to have no intuition and no foresight. SH>I think if the story had been told from a number of viewpoints I might SH>have liked it better but sticking with Janna/Jan for the entire book SH>was very irritating. This can't be expected for a book written in English with a gender-variant protagonist. If the shaman or Mika was given POV, a false indication of Jan's gender would be reinforced with every third-person pronoun. Jean Bocchino writes: JB>I didn't finish this book. I didn't have much sympathy for Janna/Jan JB>who just seemed to be at the mercy of whatever circumstances she/he JB>found himself in. I am curious now, though, to know if this was the JB>whole point and if Janna/Jan finally makes some choices in her/his JB>life at the end.....guess I'll have to go back and finish it now! Around page 64, I thoroughly understood the Amazon reader's comment that this was the autobiography of a zombie. Janna is nearly emotionless until the refugee camp, and is not proactive until Hainandao. Not the most sympathetic of characters. If the book as a whole has a plot, it's of finding or making a home - which could be resolved by the action of a protagonist, if not this one. Lindy Lovvik writes: LL>One thing that threw me a bit was the fact that I had read the first LL>section/chapter in an SF short story anthology a few months ago. Once LL>I figured out that I wasn't psychic , I was able to sit still and read. I had problems with page 1. I didn't know why Scathalos had been renamted Tekse, or why stabros had been renamed renndeer. After finishing chapter 1 and re-reading "The Cost to Be Wise," I saw a pattern in the renamings. The novel uses names with a Northern European feel to indicate that the setting is analogous to Northern Europe. This did not please me. The renamings in chapter 9, designed to evoke China, did not please me either. Koziko felt thinly crafted, however fully realized. This is just a matter of taste; I prefer alien worlds to be believably alien and prefer the original setting to one closely modeled on the original. I also found the word 'tractable' out of place. I knew the character already from McHugh's earlier writings, and the discordance suggested that Janna was simply a tourist, a vehicle to convey imagery to the reader. LL>I don't feel that the writing style makes "reader closeness" to the main LL>character easy. I feel distanced somehow. Janna does not cry or smile or frown or pound her fist or in any way suggest that the events she's relating affect her. This gets a little better later in the book. Reading critically and taking notes may be partially responsible, but I never got a feel for Jan* the way I did for, say, Shevek (The_Dispossessed) or Nia (A_Woman_of_the_Iron People). donna simone writes: DS>by telling us the story in painfully mundane detail I learned what all of those how-to-write-fiction tutorials meant about sensory detail. The setting is described elaborately, lending further insight into what must be unsaid, what the protagonist either can't pick out or takes for granted. I found this brilliantly done. When I stopped to reflect about the setting, though, given all of this information, I was able to find contradictions. The world, in general, felt far too 20th-century-Earth to me. Something simple like the use of buses in Taufzin; why wouldn't they use rail for a commuter line that takes two hours by bus, and on which few people want to stop inbetween? Surely there is no technological obstacle with a spaceport being at one end of the rail. I also couldn't buy the described perception of gender. When Jan* reaches the camp and is called by male pronouns, I was wondering why the language in question even had gendered pronouns. When the doctor told Jan* "Your presentation of gender is your right," I wondered how, in a factory where presenting as not-one-or-the-other is one's right, the locker rooms could be segregated and Jan could be addressed by such a title as Mr. Like too many novels set in the future, I didn't see social evolution on the same scale as the posited techonological evoluton. That always bothers me, even though it's somewhat of a genre staple. DS>Does anyone see other ways that McHugh disrupts our expectations as readers? Having read the pieces that became chapters 1 and 9, I had different expectations than most, which rewriting disrupted. I also found the shaman disruptive; when I thought I understood where the story was going, the shaman would do something unexpected. DS>Another is how she portrays the gender shifting. DS>Again, I will claim that she disrupts our expectations This is done far better in "The Missionary's Child" than in the novel. DS>She alters her presentation of herself to increase her agency and her DS>access within the ever changing social milieus she passes through I need to take issue with this. It wasn't his idea to present as a male when he first wore men's leggings. It wasn't his idea to present as female or to wear women's clothes after that point at all, although Mika and then Lili talked him into it. (I use male pronouns here only to emphasize that Jan is not a woman. [S]he's also not a man, and masculine pronouns are equally inappropriate.) DS>But on how many occasions have we been presented a character that has DS>absolutely no _need_ to resolve the gender issues the "passing" has DS>stirred up? Several characters from Flying_Cups_and_Saucers come to mind, especially Jo[e] Sand. It is rare, though, for someone brought up in a two-gendered society to realize the dichotomy is a construct and to deconstruct it, remaining willfully outside either box. DS>does anyone know of other SFF characters that end up in similar DS>mindset as Jan/Janna about their own gender? If anyone does, I'd like to know. I have a bibliography of candidates (Bone_Dance; Halfway_Human; He,_She,_and_It; Larque on_the_Wing) that I've never actually come across to read. I suppose I should make comment about the aunworld/util/offworld distinction. I could see no reason for repeating it so often other than as a metaphorical reminder that gender is not binary. Joyce Jones writes: JJ>In spite of the deadened emotional style, I could feel how it would be JJ>to keep walking and walking and walking. The superabundance of detail allows the reader to put herself in the setting. The deadened emotional style prevents the reader from putting herself in the protagonist's head. This isn't good or bad, just a matter of taste. Stacey Holbrook writes: SH>That is one of my many problems with this character. During the first 2/3 SH>of the book she allows everyone else to make decisions for her-- first SH>Aslak and then Mika. And also the shaman, both in the camp and after Mika's death. This is my primary objection to the character as realized in the book. SH>And I probably should mention here that the *Mission Child* feels like two SH>completely different stories to me. There is a big gap in time between SH>Janna running away from the Shaman and the time she arrives in the South. SH>The Jan of the second part of the book is different (older more SH>experienced) from the young Jan/na of the first half. I concur. Jan* is a child in Taufzin and an adult in Hainandao, but how the girl grows up into the man is left out. I bought the book wanting to read about Jan*'s twenty-something years, and was disappointed. SH>I'm afraid that the ending rang completely false for me I tried to console myself by saying that it could have been worse; Jan could have ended up as someone's wife. The ending of the book is essentially the same as the ending of "The Missionary's Child" except that it comes 100 pages later. From the pace of the first part of the book, I assumed that chapter would be the last, ending where Jan decides to make a real home and be part of a community again. [For those who haven't read the story, which I think means everyone:] --------- "I told my grandmother about you," [Ming Wei] says. "She said you could come and stay with us, if you would work hard. I said you were very strong." Again she blushes scarlet, and hurries on. "It's a little farm, it used to be better, but there's only my grandmother, but we could help, and I think we could be friends." As I learned during the long walk to [Tonstad], you may be tokked, but if you just look to the immediate future, sometimes eventually, you find the way. "I'd like that, littleheart," I say, meaning every word. "I'd like to be friends." The future, it seems, does indeed hinge on little things. -------- Changing the last sentence to something as strong as "blinking in the darkness and holding our gifts" would make the passage a suitable conclusion even for the novel. Stacey Holbrook writes [in another message] SH>She is practically handed an education and an engineering career SH>on a silver platter and she walks away from it. This reminded me far too much of where Jess leaves the job where she's about to get into the union. Stone_Butch_Blues tells a similar story (although the setting is a historical rather than fictional dystopia), with a more emotional and perhaps more human protagonist and doing a better job portraying gender as a masquerade. Several times I felt sure that McHugh had been influenced by it, but Leslie Feinberg was unacknowledged in the Acknowledgments. Raphael Carter, however, is mentioned, and I wonder just what question McHugh is referencing. If it is "What is gender?" or "Is gender real?" this book does less than others to help readers find answers. I don't know what recommends Mission_Child other than the beauty of the imagery. I would tell a friend to read the anthologies with the two shorter works and a non-SF book that directly confronts gender before I would suggest this novel. Having read widely about gender, accolades for Mission_Child remind me of non-SF/F readers loving a particular SF/F book largely because they're unread in the genre. I can understand why the Tiptree jurors would be unimpressed. Syela ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 02:08:28 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Clarion from another source Comments: To: sflit@loc.gov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > An URGENT REQUEST from DAMON KNIGHT (from Genie): > "The original Clarion at MSU is about to undergo a review to decide whether > it has value to the university and should be continued. Testimonials from > former students and instructors would be very helpful. They should be sent to > Lister M. Matheson, matheson@pilot.msu.edu." > - -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 619.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 619.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 19:53:00 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: research query: utopian feminist fiction by women of colour (Black) Comments: To: Jennifer Spencer Comments: cc: feministsf-lit@uic.edu In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990506173612.007b1580@pop.uvic.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII you're being rather specific by limiting to utopian. if i redefine to include sf / fantasy that is not NECESSARILY utopian: jewelle gomez THE GILDA STORIES octavia butler - everything nalo hopkinson - BROWN GIRL IN THE RING tananarive due - THE BETWEEN this is all that comes up off the top of my head. unfortunately, altho i'm sure there are a number of excellent African writers i don't know any, but i have a sense that there "magical realism" is a thread in African writing as well, so maybe you want to think about that. ummm ... also of course Latina writers - there are lots of great Latina writers of fantasy / magical realism / etc., some of whom may be Black ... it seems like there's a british Black woman sf writer but i'm blanking. i'm cc:ing this note to the feministsf-lit discussion group to see if anyone else has other ideas ... On Thu, 6 May 1999, Jennifer Spencer wrote: > Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 17:36:12 -0700 > From: Jennifer Spencer > To: lquilter@igc.apc.org > Subject: research query: utopian feminist fiction by women of colour (Black) > > Hello, > > Hoping you could spare a minute to help me: I've been asked to come up > with suggested readings on utopian feminist fiction by/about Black women - > seem to be hard to come by - any suggestions would be appreciated!! > > thank you > > Jennifer Spencer > University of Victoria > > Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman *** NEW TRIAL FOR MUMIA ABU-JAMAL *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:52:47 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Keith Subject: Re: BDG: Grass In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990505120219.0079bc90@ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 5 May 1999, Julieanne wrote: > snip < > On the negative side - possibly because it is a recurring theme of > Tepper's, or possibly because its just feels "overdone" - I was > disappointed by the caricatures of Catholicism - On the other hand, perhaps > it is a personal life-issue thing, because I personally have had very > little experience of any form of institutionalised religion in my life, and > find it difficult to identify with it being a major political force . > > snip < Here in the U.S., the Catholic Council of Bishops routinely lobbys Congress, and pressures individual Catholic senators (as lawmakers, not as parishioners or otherwise private individuals) concerning issues that directly affect women's lives - birth control and abortion being the two this exclusively male body is most adamant about. The male-governed religions, such as the Catholic, Mormon and many Protestant churches, *are* a major political force in the U.S. Non-representative government in a country that routinely castigates other countries for same can get real frustrating. > I was also disappointed by the strained nature of the mother-daughter > relationships in Tepper's works, contrasted with the mother-son > relationships. Someone else posted about feeling disappointed at the lack > of detailed characterisation of secondary women characters in Grass, which > I echo - but have to add that the other women characters, particularly > those closest to the heroine, like daughters, are often painted as shallow > and selfish - or misguided fools. Its unfortunate, because it does detract > from what is otherwise a solid feminist novel. > I thought this pulled an otherwise well put together novel out of shape, too. Liked especially the full, consistent descriptions of the land and buildings that went with the land and the human adaptations to the land, but thought that M. Tepper was taking unfair advantage of being an excellent writer to work out a private quarrel in her characterization of Stella, (I suppose I *should* feel the same about Majorie's husband, but this is a feminist list, no?) The sexual competition over Sylvan that Majorie easily won even before she knew she was in the game especially bothered me. But the slow working out of her independance from her husband and her priests - that was great! The Majorie/ Stella issue reminded me of another writer whose probable daughter had my sympathy: Marge Piercy. _Gone to Soldiers_'s major female characters are all sympathetic, except for this charactiture of a whining, shallow teenager who just happens to be the daughter of the middle-aged, female author character. H'mmm - a little public payback, maybe? Kathleen (who'se very grateful her own mother, although incredibly articulate, didn't write stories) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 08:31:32 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: research query: utopian feminist fiction by women of colour (Black) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ... it seems >like there's a british Black woman sf writer but i'm blanking. Could be Barbara Burford? - some of the stories in _The Threshing Floor_ are sf/fantasy Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 10:58:25 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: donna simone Subject: Re: Mission Child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 5 May 1999, S. Holbrook wrote: >McHugh was very good at giving crystalline moments of clarity-- but those >moments were realized by -me- more often than Jan/na. At first it was >interesting to know more about what was going on than Jan/na but after a >while it got to be really annoying.> I can appreciate that McHugh's use of "unreliable narrator" becomes annoying. Especially having recently read 'Half the Day is Night' where the potential for frustration with that technique is extreme! I guess I was predisposed to willingly embrace the character and her story prior to reading the book. I read the short story (version in Starlight) and enjoyed it immensely. In the short story we see the more knowing, more savvy Janna. I did not forget her, even when she became the very naive refugee/wanderer in much of MC. >.....Jan/na doesn't resolve anything. She never makes any clear choices about >her gender because she never makes any clear choices about anything. She >seldom really thinks about anything or tries to think things through> Hmmmm, I am wrestling a bit with this perception. To me after the point at which Alsak dies, every move Jan/na makes is solely her own choice based on her own experience/reasoning/needs. Yes, informed or influenced by those around her that she has chosen to learn from or engage with (Kari, Shaman, Mika, offworlders), but nonetheless her own choices based on her growing knowledge. Is it not showing resolve or choice to refuse to resolve something? I found her willful refusal to resolve the gender issue one of the most powerful aspects of her character. I also find that portrayal to be what makes the book's gender message so powerful. Gender does not _have to_ be resolved. It can be fluid and dynamic. As it was, and will be I am presuming, for Jan/na. >..... After she tells Mika that she is a woman, his attitude towards her shifts >radically. This doesn't prevent her from continuing a relationship with him, though. >He starts pressuring her to become more female and she allows herself to be >talked into removing all her body hair and wearing a ridiculous dress.> I saw these machinations as very realistic. Jan/na thought she was 'in love' with Mika for some portion of time. Some level of _allowing_ him to influence her felt true to me. Similar to her interactions with Aslak, she allowed him to distract her with kissing in chapter one, she allowed him to lead and decide when they were searching for safety. Based on her understanding of his self perceptions as the eldest than only male. McHugh made clear I thought that Jan/na actively and consciously 'allowed' males in her life their influence of her choices, rather then that she was just passively dictated to. We are frequently given her thoughts about what she reads as their needs or desires, and she then chooses how to respond or whether to follow. I did not see Jan/na as passive, more I saw her as wary, cautious, deferential where that was expedient, and in that I saw her as very savvy. M take on the shaving and dress wearing also considered that these were not just departures from her presentation as male, but dramatic departures from the behavior and attire that she would have experienced growing up in her clan. They were part of gaining knowledge and learning of her environment, as much as about "doing it for Mika" I feel McHugh maintained a consistent portrayal throughout the book in regard to Jan/na's presentation of herself. She would make a choice, whether dictated by survival, as in the early donning of the dead man's clothing, or subterfuge, as in maintaining male presentation in the camp to not be pushed to exchange sex for food, and then she would observe/learn the impact or response to that choice, and use that information to inform her next choice. I found this portrayal of Jan/na's evolution of self-presentation one of the brilliant and exciting aspects of MC. > I strongly feel that if the Mika character had lived she would have ended up >removing the implant and becoming fully female again. One of the reasons she >never resolves her gender identity is because after Mika dies there is no one left to >pressure her to choose who she is going to be. Wow, I had not considered that. My read was that Jan/na was growing somewhat impatient or bored with Mika as time passed and as she realized he was not someone she loved. I saw the relationship as something that would have passed eventually as Jan/na moved on to new things with her increased knowledge. >And I probably should mention here that the *Mission Child* feels like two >completely different stories to me.......The Jan of the second part of the book is >different (older more experienced) from the young Jan/na of the first half. But >underneath there is the same Jan/na that drifts along.> Are you saying that this is a bad thing for you? > I'm afraid that the ending rang completely false for me when Jan finally makes a >real choice-- to realize hir lifelong dream of becoming a gardener (sorry for the >sarcasm). When I thought back on what life she would have had with the clan, I was more taken with the realization that she _had_ a choice of what to do with her life. To me the beauty was that 'choice' in itself. She could choose to be something that pleased and rewarded her. Even if it was to become a gardener. Come to think of it, I would be delighted to make that same choice in my own life. I have relinquished so many of my universe encompassing dreams over the years. Choosing to be a gardener sounds quite appealing. >You must have been reading a completely different character-- And you will have to >go a loooong way to convince me of her brilliance.> Some reader perceptions are not open to debate, no? They are simple, pure responses. You may be right.... I was reading a completely different character. >.....I didn't totally hate the book......> Phew! (grin) donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 10:36:02 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: sf conference Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, feministsf-lit@uic.edu Comments: cc: Matthew Higgins Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable attached is a call for a conference in the UK y'all might be interested in ...

>From: "Matthew Higgins" <mh64@leicester.ac.uk>
>To: lquilter@igc.apc.org
>Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 08:25:14 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Science fiction Web page
>Reply-to: mh64@leicester.ac.uk
>Priority: normal
>X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.40)
>X-Status:
>
>Hi
>
>I recently visited your web page on feminist sci-fi. I wondered if
>you would be interested in a conference being held in the UK on=20
>science fiction & organization. I have attached the call for papers.
>We are currently looking for abstracts on gender & sci-fi.
>Sorry for this unsolicited email.
>Best Wishes
>Matthew
>
>-----------------
>Matthew Higgins
>Management Centre
>University of Leicester
>University Road
>Leicester
>LE1 7RH
>Tel: 0116 2525644
>Fax: 0116 252 3949
>Email: mh64@le.ac.uk

A Call for Papers
=A0 =93Science Fiction and Organization=94
A Two Day Conference

14-15 September 1999
Belmont House Hotel
Leicester

Although popular accounts of the actions of organizations frequently call upon tropes developed within science fiction, the marginal (and seemingly non-academic) nature of science fiction has meant that it has been largely ignored in the serious business of writing organizational theory. Nevertheless science fiction can be seen as a diagnosis of the present and a vision of possible futures. As such it provides a contemporary resource with which to interrogate both contemporary organizing processes and organizations as institutions.
This conference aims to explore how science fiction can enrich studies of organizations. Authors may wish to consider such themes as:

=B7 examining how organizational theory and developments in science fiction interrelate;
=B7 narrating how immersion in science fiction can alter the reader=92s perspective and how this, in turn, feeds an understanding of organization;
=B7 discussion of how the exploration of popula= r themes in science fiction (such as identity, the nature of reality, the all-powerful corporation, the creation and maintenance of meta-narratives) correspond to approaches taken to similar work within organizational theory.

An edited collection of selected papers will be published by Routledge.

The cost of the conference is =A3165. This includes one night accommodation, the dinner and lunches.

Abstracts (max 500 words) should be submitted to the address below by 31-05-1999.
For further details please contact: Matthew Higgins @
Management Centre, University of Leicester, Leicester, England. LE1 7RH
E-mail:=A0 mh64@le.ac.uk Fax: 0116 2523949 Tel: 0116 2525644



----------------------------------------------------------------------=20


A Further Call for Papers
Science Fiction & Organization
14-15 September 1999
Belmont House Hotel
Leicester UK

This is a second request for abstracts for the Science Fiction and Organization Conference which will be held in Leicester (UK).

In an effort to identify papers covering themes which are currently under-represented we are requesting abstracts for the following areas:

* Gender and Science fiction
* The Star Wars phenomenon

A collection of selected papers will be published by Routledge in 2000, to be edited by Martin Parker, Geoff Lightfoot (Keele University), Warren Smith and Matthew Higgins (Leicester University).

The cost of the conference is 165 (GBP) and this includes one nights accommodation, the dinner and lunches. A limited number of places are available for people who wish to attend but not give papers.

Abstracts (max 500 words) should be submitted to the address below by 31-05-1999.

For further details about the conference please contact:

Matthew Higgins
Management Centre
University of Leicester
University Road
LEICESTER
LE1 7RH
Email: mh64@le.ac.uk
Tel: 0116 2525644
Fax: 0116 2523949






 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 10:43:05 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: BDG: Grass / fiction vs. autobiography In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 06 May 99 21:52:47 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >The Majorie/ Stella issue reminded me of another writer whose probable >daughter had my sympathy: Marge Piercy. _Gone to Soldiers_'s major >female characters are all sympathetic, except for this charactiture of a >whining, shallow teenager who just happens to be the daughter of the >middle-aged, female author character. H'mmm - a little public payback, >maybe? Once again, we should all remember that this is fiction and not autobiography. I can guarantee that you're off the mark here because Marge Piercy doesn't have a teenage daughter; in fact, she has no children. I don't know whether Sheri Tepper does, but I think we should all be careful not to attribute a character's motivations to the author. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:22:48 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Mission Child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I liked this book a lot. Like Donna, I think it succeeds at what it tries to do, but I can also understand the bad reactions some people have had to it. Some people may be able to appreciate McHugh's novels on a first reading, but I would guess that such people are rare, simply because she intentionally undermines some of the common foundations of SF novels. My first McHugh was *China Mountain Zhang*. Having heard great things about it after it won the Tiptree, I had high expectations and found when I first picked it up that I could not identify with Zhang and found his life boring. I only read about 20 pages and gave up. Many months later I picked it up again and determined to forge on. I was so glad I did. As often happens when I listen to unfamiliar music that challenges my expectations, it took me quite a while to appreciate the book. By the end I was astonished to realize how my opinion of Zhang had changed and how much warmth I felt for him and the author herself. McHugh is not a showy writer; in order to appreciate her work I have to actively interpret rather than waiting for important events to be highlighted for me. And over and over again, expectations about what *sorts* of important events will be related in the story are overturned. The first, most obvious, surprise in *Mission Child* is that the offworlders who come to the village in response to Janna's distress call don't rescue her. As a reader, I was shocked and appalled, but Janna did not seem to question the situation at all. At this point I don't think it's far wrong to characterize her as a "zombie". After all, her entire family has just been brutally killed, her community has been destroyed and she has been left with almost nothing. Emotional numbness is understandable. But I do not think Janna remains a zombie for long. Several people have commented that they found Janna emotionless and without purpose. As far as emotions go, all I can think is that the unfamiliar style of the narrative is distracting people from what is actually being said, because the references to Janna's emotions are frequent. It's true that she doesn't spend much time thinking about long range plans, but to me this seems only realistic. In reality there are some people who want to make millions and know just how to do it, but they are mighty few. Most of us have our choices mapped out for us by class, race and parentage and spend our energy largely on day-to-day tasks, not on fulfilling a master plan. In SF there is a long tradition of writing about (mostly white male) underdogs who turn out to be geniuses and who outsmart the aliens, make great discoveries or become rulers of the galactic federation. (Who was it who said that American SF tends toward simple power fantasies?) I see McHugh as consciously addressing this tradition with her characters who can barely keep themselves alive, let alone save humanity, who never understand the Great Conspiracy, who aren't masters of the martial arts, and who aren't able to learn new languages at the drop of a hat. I find it new and interesting. I think there is an issue of plot here as well. McHugh's writing is not what I would call "plot-heavy" -- I read her books more for the wonderfully-realized settings and the characters than to find out what happens next. Each of her novels can also be read as a series of short stories or vignettes. (Chapter 11 of *Half the Day Is Night* especially struck me as a brief, powerful statement on the multiple causes of drug addiction.) This is most obvious with *Mission Child* because two parts of the book are altered versions of previously published short stories. I don't view this as a shortcoming, though I can imagine that others would. Has anyone else ever read Ursula Le Guin's essay "The Carrier Bag Theory of Fiction"? In it she challenges the idea that stories must be told as a series of conflicts leading in a straight line to the end (like a spear being thrown toward its target). She says that an equally valid way of writing a novel is to envision it as a bag, filled with food or other useful items that can be taken out one at a time or all at once depending on preference. (Le Guin's own *Always Coming Home* is a prime example of such a carrier bag.) McHugh's novels seem to occupy the middle ground to me. Characters grow and change over the course of her books, but structurally the books can be considered in smaller pieces. I think this leads to fabulous rereading possibilities! I don't feel that I have done justice to the book or other people's messages in this reply, but dang if it's not time to go home! I look forward to further discussion. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: XTC -- Apple Venus Volume 1 "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 21:06:25 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Mission Child In-Reply-To: <001001be989a$1015c400$03b11b26@donna> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 7 May 1999, donna simone wrote: > >.....Jan/na doesn't resolve anything. She never makes any clear choices about > >her gender because she never makes any clear choices about anything. She > >seldom really thinks about anything or tries to think things through> > > Hmmmm, I am wrestling a bit with this perception. To me after the > point at which Alsak dies, every move Jan/na makes is solely her own > choice based on her own experience/reasoning/needs. Yes, informed or > influenced by those around her that she has chosen to learn from or > engage with (Kari, Shaman, Mika, offworlders), but nonetheless her own > choices based on her growing knowledge. I just don't see this-- not until the second part of the book when Jan/na is older. The only real choice she made in the first part of the book is to fetch the Shaman and she pretty much drops the ball with him anyway. There are just too many scenes where others pressure her into doing what they want or lead her along-- when she gets to the camp a young couple helps her in, when she gets to the city a clansman leads her to a mission, Mika gets her a job etc. > Is it not showing resolve or choice to refuse to resolve something? I > found her willful refusal to resolve the gender issue one of the most > powerful aspects of her character. I also find that portrayal to be > what makes the book's gender message so powerful. Gender does not > _have to_ be resolved. It can be fluid and dynamic. As it was, and > will be I am presuming, for Jan/na. You are focusing more on her gender identity than any of her other characteristics. About half way through the book I began to wonder if the cross-dressing was just thrown in to make Jan/na more interesting. Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see any profound examination of gender identity in this book. Probably the most interesting glimpse at gender identity was in the scenes with the Shaman-- particularly Jan/na's attitude toward his dress. > > ..... After she tells Mika that she is a woman, his attitude towards > > her shifts radically. This doesn't prevent her from continuing a > > > relationship with him, though. He starts pressuring her to become > > > more female and she allows herself to be talked into removing all her > > body hair and wearing a ridiculous dress. > > I saw these machinations as very realistic. Jan/na thought she was 'in > love' with Mika for some portion of time. Some level of _allowing_ him > to influence her felt true to me. Actually, I thought these scenes with Mika were very realistic too. And if she had shown some indication of wising up I might have enjoyed the book more. But again, Jan/na just goes along with the program-- she never attempts to assert herself with Mika. She allows herself to be led into real danger in spite of her fear. Jan/na doesn't free hirself from Mika or attempt to come to some resolution with him. This would have been far more interesting to me. (snip) > > And I probably should mention here that the *Mission Child* feels > > > like two completely different stories to me.......The Jan of the > > > second part of the book is >different (older more experienced) from > > the young Jan/na of the first half. But >underneath there is the > > same Jan/na that drifts along.> > > Are you saying that this is a bad thing for you? I don't think "bad" is a good word for this. I enjoyed some aspects of the book (I apologize if I sound completely critical). What didn't work for me is the abrupt break between young Janna and older Jan. I didn't get the chance to see Jan develop into the person who is finally able to make choices for hirself instead of running away or allowing others to make decisions for hir. I would have liked to have seen Jan/na become a strong person-- instead there is long gap and we are introduced to a different character. > > I'm afraid that the ending rang completely false for me when Jan finally makes a >real choice-- to realize hir lifelong dream of > becoming a gardener (sorry for the >sarcasm). > > When I thought back on what life she would have had with the clan, I > was more taken with the realization that she _had_ a choice of what to > do with her life. To me the beauty was that 'choice' in itself. She > could choose to be something that pleased and rewarded her. Even if it > was to become a gardener. Throughout the book she had plenty of choices offered to her-- so why did she choose to be a gardener? There is no build up to this. She falls into this by accident-- just like everything else she. So why doesn't she run away like she did so many times before? Again, it is the time gap when I don't get to see Jan/na changing and growing that makes her choice to be a gardener so unrealistic for me. > >.....I didn't totally hate the book......> > > Phew! (grin) Honestly, I wanted to love this book. Some of the images are still vivid in my mind. There were many moments that were painfully real-- the way Jan/na used alcohol to numb hir feelings of loneliness, the way Aslak and Jan/na kept running even when they were no longer being pursued, Jan/na's ambivalence toward her daughter etc. I think if I had been able to like Jan/na more... > donna > donnaneely@earthlink.net > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com)