From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Sat Sep 11 14:26:48 1999 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:49:48 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG9905C" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:27:11 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: sorry, misplaced MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I really need to get off of the old feministsf list. could someone please send me the unsubscribe message? Thanks. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 23:58:05 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: sorry, misplaced In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 15 May 1999 22:27:11 EDT." <59d1c244.246f86ff@aol.com> >Hi, I really need to get off of the old feministsf list. could someone >please send me the unsubscribe message? I hunted up the instructions (just quit myself, did we take *all* the rational people away?): You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF FEMINISTSF" command to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. -jessie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:24:52 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Request for Info/Suggestions In-Reply-To: <59d1c244.246f86ff@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" FSFFU-LIT members: In one of my recent book/literature discussions at a local college - the question of nationalism/cultural identification came up in the context of science-fiction and speculative fiction. Apart from some literary fiction, historical pieces or political satire, (Schindlers List, Kurt Vonnegut, Karel Capek etc) , we were not able to come up with many examples, in sci-fi/fantasy/speculative fiction - let alone feminist - where this theme was a major point of a novel or short-story. Tho' Le Guin, and even Jo Clayton, came to my mind - they still *feel* like minor, not major, themes - nonetheless they have been included - but our list is woefully short. Does anyone on-list know of anything which they might suggest for my discussion group's reading list? Japanese and Asian authors, with English translations would be particularly useful if anyone knows of any. Thanks - Julieanne:) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 23:55:36 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dave Samuelson Subject: Re: Request for Info/Suggestions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One embarrassing example is a classic. The narrator in Murray Leinster's "First Contact" (during World WarII) speculates on which nationality aliens may resemble: upstanding Scandinavians or sneaky Japs. To be sure, we can deconstruct certain characteristics typical of American, English, Aussie, French, German, Italian, or Russian sf, Jim Gunn is generally right in his history and anthology of sf that a major subtext of 20th c. SF is that national boundaries diminish when the human race is the protagonist. Julieanne wrote: > FSFFU-LIT members: > > In one of my recent book/literature discussions at a local college - the > question of nationalism/cultural identification came up in the context of > science-fiction and speculative fiction. Apart from some literary fiction, > historical pieces or political satire, (Schindlers List, Kurt Vonnegut, Karel > Capek etc) , we were not able to come up with many examples, in > sci-fi/fantasy/speculative fiction - let alone feminist - where this theme > was a major point of a novel or short-story. Tho' Le Guin, and even Jo > Clayton, came to my mind - they still *feel* like minor, not major, themes - > nonetheless they have been included - but our list is woefully short. > > Does anyone on-list know of anything which they might suggest for my > discussion group's reading list? Japanese and Asian authors, with English > translations would be particularly useful if anyone knows of any. > > Thanks - > > Julieanne:) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 03:27:48 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Re: Request for Info/Suggestions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julieanne wrote: In one of my recent book/literature discussions at a local college - the > question of nationalism/cultural identification came up in the context of > science-fiction and speculative fiction. It depends on your interpretation of what is nationalist, and why, but in Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale, the reason given behind all the facist s--- is that Gilead wants to be an upright, holier than thou nation. And doesn't nationalism play a strong part in determining the politics of Winter in Left Hand of Darkness? Sharon L. Anderson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 19:39:30 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: Request for Info/Suggestions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julieanne wrote: > > FSFFU-LIT members: > > In one of my recent book/literature discussions at a local college - the > question of nationalism/cultural identification came up in the context of > science-fiction and speculative fiction. Apart from some literary fiction, > historical pieces or political satire, (Schindlers List, Kurt Vonnegut, > Karel Capek etc) , we were not able to come up with many examples, in > sci-fi/fantasy/speculative fiction - let alone feminist - where this theme > was a major point of a novel or short-story. Tho' Le Guin, and even Jo > Clayton, came to my mind - they still *feel* like minor, not major, themes > - nonetheless they have been included - but our list is woefully short. > > Does anyone on-list know of anything which they might suggest for my > discussion group's reading list? Japanese and Asian authors, with English > translations would be particularly useful if anyone knows of any. > > Thanks - > > Julieanne:) Though perhaps not a major theme, the more distopian half of the country in Starhawk's _The Fifth the Sacred Thing_ is very "pro-America" to the point that any language other than English is considered satanic. susan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 06:02:04 PDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: kay shirt Subject: Re: Request for Info/Suggestions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; >Does anyone on-list know of anything which they might suggest for my >discussion group's reading list? Japanese and Asian authors, with English >translations would be particularly useful if anyone knows of any. > > >Thanks - > >Julieanne:) The Australian writer John Marsden has a series of books beginning with "Tomorrow When The War Began" Kay ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 10:25:31 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Grassby Joslyn Subject: Request for information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Books in which politics/social organization play an important part: Eleanor Arnason Ring of swords Rebecca Ore a trilogy whose titles (I think! books at home) are Becoming alien, Being alien, Alien to human ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 20:09:35 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Laurel A. Lamme" Subject: Re: Request for Info/Suggestions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The series that came to my mind on the subject of nationalism was R. A. MacAvoy's _Lens of the World_ trilogy. The second book, _King of the Dead_, deals particularly with questions of national identification and war, however, I would suggest reading the first book, _Lens of the World_, before attempting the second. Laurel >FSFFU-LIT members: > >In one of my recent book/literature discussions at a local college - the >question of nationalism/cultural identification came up in the context of >science-fiction and speculative fiction. Apart from some literary fiction, >historical pieces or political satire, (Schindlers List, Kurt Vonnegut, >Karel Capek etc) , we were not able to come up with many examples, in >sci-fi/fantasy/speculative fiction - let alone feminist - where this theme >was a major point of a novel or short-story. Tho' Le Guin, and even Jo >Clayton, came to my mind - they still *feel* like minor, not major, themes >- nonetheless they have been included - but our list is woefully short. > >Does anyone on-list know of anything which they might suggest for my >discussion group's reading list? Japanese and Asian authors, with English >translations would be particularly useful if anyone knows of any. > > >Thanks - > >Julieanne:) > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:08:57 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Suzanne Feldman Subject: Breadfruit Politics Comments: cc: "FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a new story just up on Ellen Datlow's Event Horizon sf/webzine called THE BREADFRUIT EMPIRE. I'd love to get feedback on it. Here's the site: http://www.eventhorizon.com/sfzine/ Yours, Suze/Severna ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:34:40 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Grass In Grass Marjorie states that evil can be made but it cannot be unmade. Do you think either Marjorie or Tepper could believe this? I know it goes along with what Madrone has shown us about infant brains being shaped by stimuli and nutrition or lack thereof; but still it seems too harsh a comment to accept. Whatever caused the hippae to become evil perhaps couldn't be undone, but does this mean that an individual hippae couldn't be rehabilitated? If Stella was supposed to be evil, her terrible ordeal did make her more able to relate in a less self-centered manner, but she certainly didn't seem a complete person by the end of the novel. I don't think one is necessarily an unrealistic Pollyanna to believe that with the right conditioning and support some forms of evil can be reversed. Some studies even find that a percentage of child molesters can be rehabilitated, and I can hardly think of a greater evil than that. If this life is the only one we can be sure of living, it's just too depressing to think that some people are hopelessly evil. Their one life has been for nothing and can never amount to anything. This feeling seems to go against the impetus to write books that try to encourage change. I can see a dictator believing this way. Hitler would certainly be able to hold on to the idea, but not a person who lives to create. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:58:41 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: BDG Grass-Evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joyce Jones wrote: > > In Grass Marjorie states that evil can be made but it cannot be unmade. Do > you think either Marjorie or Tepper could believe this? What a fascinating question! I think it's very possible that Marjorie or Tepper could believe this because I think I could believe it. The question one has to ask then, of course, is what do you mean by evil? I know it goes > along with what Madrone has shown us about infant brains being shaped by > stimuli and nutrition or lack thereof; but still it seems too harsh a > comment to accept. Whatever caused the hippae to become evil perhaps > couldn't be undone, but does this mean that an individual hippae couldn't be > rehabilitated? As far as the story goes, it seemed like the Arbai failed at rehabilitating a single Hippae, yet part of the fault for this failure seemed to be the Arbai inability to perceive evil. Would it have turned out differently if the Arbai had punished the Hippae when it first killed some of the Arbai? Or retaliated? the Hippae probably would have killed them all either way. It's interesting that at the very end, the Foxen start to lay their own eggs and keep them separate from the Hippae eggs in order to hopefully produce less "evil" Hippae. They don't give in to an inevitable outcome and it was partly due to their interaction with Marjorie (and the ethical questions of the Green Brothers?) that they adopted a more proactive strategy to surviving. If Stella was supposed to be evil, her terrible ordeal did > make her more able to relate in a less self-centered manner, but she > certainly didn't seem a complete person by the end of the novel. I don't think Tepper proposed Stella was evil or that her violation by the HIppae was an improvement. Though she may have been better behaved afterward (who wouldn't be, given a virtual lobotomy?) she still does not really like her mother. Marjorie seems clear that Stella will be violated or killed by the Hippae and that is unacceptable to her, regardless of her conflicts with her daughter. I don't > think one is necessarily an unrealistic Pollyanna to believe that with the > right conditioning and support some forms of evil can be reversed. Some > studies even find that a percentage of child molesters can be rehabilitated, > and I can hardly think of a greater evil than that. > I can see what you're saying, but I'm not sure that this is what Tepper mean when she says evil can be made but not unmade. Of course only she could tell us what she means, but I understand that idea a little differently that your question of rehabilitation. Sure, people can change-- I hope so! In my view, we are all both violator and violated in some way and we have to take responsibility for both. To take your example of the sexual abuser, I believe that they can be rehabilitated, but can the harm they have done someone else be reversed? No. That's not to say that that person can't recover from the violation, but the fact that they were violated in the first place cannot be reversed. It's an evil that hs been made and can't be unmade. The way I understand it is to, first of all, see that anyone has the ability to "make" evil -- if we do, that evil is irreversible in the sense that it is a permanent loss in both the long run and the short run. In my view, there is no "God's will" that will come along and eclipse all those losses and make something good out of them. They're not good and they never will be -- they subtract from the whole of possibility for life and well-being (regretting the quantitative sense of the word). > If this life is the only one we can be sure of living, it's just too > depressing to think that some people are hopelessly evil. Their one life> has been for nothing and can never amount to anything. This feeling seems > to go against the impetus to write books that try to encourage change. I > can see a dictator believing this way. Hitler would certainly be able to > hold on to the idea, but not a person who lives to create. At the same time as I can agree that evil can be made but not unmade I don't believe that anyone is "hopelessly evil". On the contrary, I think that if we understand that once we've "made evil" it can't be "unmade" that we will take our responibility much more seriously and work toward changes both in ourselves and in our society. A "person who lives to create" IMO is a person who has to have a deep understanding of her ability to destroy, not just a potentially naive desire to "do good". Dictators, including Hitler, usually see themselves as great creators and they persuade others of that too. They dismiss the idea that their high ideas might lead to evil consequences--and so they do. Though I love _GRass_ I don't necessarily see it as a great moral wake-up call. On the other hand, I think Tepper's question about what is means to be "too good to do good" is one worthy of consideration. Bah! enough from me! Thanks Joyce, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:11:42 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: Breadfruit Empire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Suzanne Feldman wrote: > > I have a new story just up on Ellen Datlow's Event Horizon sf/webzine > called THE BREADFRUIT EMPIRE. I'd love to get feedback on it. > > Here's the site: > > http://www.eventhorizon.com/sfzine/ > Spoilers if you haven't read the story Suze, I really enjoyed the story! One part that really came through to me was actually the weather. Perhaps it was beacause my feet were cold while I read it, but I really had a sense of Lisa's cold and wet and that dark blizzard-coming feeling. You know,that my-feet-are-icy-and- soaking-wet-and-I'm-going-to-die-of-hypothermia feeling. The tension built well and there was definitely some fear generated over Bob and what he was up to. I got a picture of him as an all purpose paraniod militiaman/hippe?/loony entrepreneur. The descriptions of the bread and cheese were vivd. The irony seems to be that even though he is completely wacko, he is right about the aliens. I really liked the tension with the 911 calls --like a bad dream!! Yr description of the breadfruit/eggs was good, sensual and suggestive. the only thing I didn't quite get was Lisa's dislike for her mother. One just had to take your word for this. Of course the length of the story precludes much going into that relationship. Wonderful job! thanks for sharing!! Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:16:52 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG: Grass, and Tepper's depiction of evil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm glad to see some discussion about the evil hippae in Grass. This was the thing I remembered most clearly about the book. I intended to get to re-reading it and still haven't, and I'm really surprised at how many posts discuss elements of the story that I just don't remember at all. And yet I still flinch at what I remember about the hippae. The image of those people inventing machines to practice riding for hours without impaling themselves. Shudder. This leads me to point out other Tepper books depicting what seems to be pure evil. (I'm pretty sure my recollections are too vague to constitute spoilers.) Consider the bad guys in Raising the Stones, for example. Or the heavy in Gibbon's Decline and Fall. Wasn't there a malevolent force in Shadow's End? Though I think that was kept mysterious and inhuman. As I recall, in none of these cases did Tepper succeed (or even try?) at counteracting the evil by showing a bit of humanity. She did show some childhood trauma in the case of the bad guy in Gibbon's, but as I recall there was supernatural evil involved as well. Each of these portrayals of evil seem, as a result, to be flat and unreal. Surely this is intentional, she's far too good a writer to have major characters be so uni-dimensional without realizing it. Why? If it was to make the story scary, well it worked for me. Almost too well, I almost didn't finish Gibbon's. The evil portrayed represents various things, from the anti-woman force in Raising the Stones and Gibbon's to a more ecological menace in Shadow's End. I think in some of her other works she does temper the "bad" characters with some humanity. I'm thinking of Plague of Angels, which includes multifaceted characters with far more complexity than the books I referenced here. That seems ironic since Plague sets out to include stereotypical fairy tale characters. But I digress. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:30:23 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Mission Child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I started reading this book yesterday afternoon and couldn't put it down... finished it this afternoon (resenting all those life-things that came in between). I share Donna's enthusiasm. This is a wonderful, touching, sweet and disturbing book. Layers of wonder opened up for me as I followed Janna, then WAS Janna, finally -- struggling and winning. I especially admired the way McHugh so clearly set forth the mind-sets, the ways of thinking, of the different groups. They were so well drawn that they tangled and clashed and I could still sort them out and understand them. Someone had said they thought Janna/Jan was stupid. I don't agree at all. She was what she was -- enterpreneurial, observant, clever, a learner. And always specifically her Self. No matter what society demanded, she remained true to the nebulous something she felt herself to be, even when she inwardly questioned it. That takes a tough mind. But is J/J tough? She's a caring person. I can't recall another character who is so in tune with life-rhythms, her own and the people (and even non-humans -- thinking about the old renndeer) around her. I closed the cover on this book thinking I had been many places, seen many things, met many people, learned many life lessons. And am now a little lonesome for Janna/Jan... best phoebe Phoebe Wray zozie@aol.com