From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Sat Sep 11 14:26:52 1999 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:49:50 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG9906A" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:42:46 GMT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: CFP: _Star Trek: Deep Space 9_ Anthology (9/15; second call) Comments: To: cfp@english.upenn.edu, iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu, owner-melus-l@listserver.TAMU-Commerce.edu, h-pcaaca@h-net.msu.edu, sfuf@csd.uwm.edu, SFRA-L@ebbs.english.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We would appreciate your assistance in passing this call to interested colleagues and posting it to related discussion lists. Apologies in advance for cross-posting. Second Call for Papers (_Star Trek: Deep Space 9_ Anthology; September 15, 1999) Since the 1998-99 season is the last scheduled one for this series, we are calling for papers for an anthology on ST:DS9. Papers are solicited from any discipline. Analytical and pedagogical papers are welcome. Any topic will be considered, but we are especially interested in issues of: · Ethnicity · ^ÓRace^Ô · Gender · Sexuality · Religion · The Family Deadline for completed papers: September 15, 1999 Length: 35 pages maximum Attribution: MLA parenthetical or endnotes Submit two copies of your completed paper to: Robin Anne Reid Department of Literature & Languages TAMU-Commerce Commerce TX 75429 OR Judy Ann Ford History Department TAMU-Commerce Commerce TX 75429 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:21:35 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG: Slow River discussion starts next Monday Comments: To: fsflist Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Next Monday we begin discussion of our June BDG selection, Nicola Griffith's _Slow River_. Of course you can continue to discuss Grass, this is just a reminder to anyone (like me) who has put off re-reading until the last minute. Please note this discussion will take place on the FeministSF-Lit list, not the original list. I am cross-posting this reminder to both lists, but the discussion itself will only be on the new list. If you haven't signed up for it yet, please do by sending a message to: listserv@uic.edu in the body of the message say: subscribe feministsf-lit Myfirstname Mylastname example: subscribe feministsf-lit Laura Quilter Before then I thought it might be helpful to review a few points about the discussion. Most of this is covered on our fabulous BDG web site: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/index.html The book discussion group's objective is to focus discussion on a particular book at a particular time to get as many people participating and enjoying the group as possible. It's not meant to change the nature of the list, just focus the discussion. New book discussions begin monthly on the first Monday of the month, directly on the FeminstSF-lit list. Other works can of course be discussed at the same time on the list. Also, it's fine to discuss a book before the scheduled date, just remember to include spoilers in your early postings. If you want to initiate discussion about a book the group has already discussed that's OK as well, but it's polite to look through the archives first. Book group discussion messages should include the string "BDG" (for Book Discussion Group) in the subject. It would also be helpful to include the title or initials of the title in the subject, so that particularly enthusiastic discussions can spill over into the next month. Spoiler disclaimers are not necessary once discussion has begun. Members are encouraged to follow the general list rules such as quoting only the necessary parts of original messages in responses to reduce excess bandwidth. Discussion can be literary and theoretical or more concrete discussions about plot or character development. There's enough of a mix of people on the list that we can each participate in the aspects that interest us and ignore those aspects that don't. Remember, the group's purpose is to encourage rather than discourage discussion. Please assume that authors of the books are on the list, whether they announce their presence or not. This does NOT mean you should edit your comments to only say nice things. It DOES mean you should avoid personal attacks and be as specific in your comments as possible. Members (that's you!) are encouraged to suggest a bibliography of essays or other works pertaining to the book currently under discussion or the following month's book. Upcoming discussions: July 5 Connie Willis: To Say Nothing of the Dog Aug 2 Octavia Butler: Wild Seed Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:49:06 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: OT-Bitch magazine Comments: cc: Bitch MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, I know we are not supposed to make off topic posts anymore, but I was hoping that since it's been quiet the last few days I might be forgiven... I feel compelled to make sure you've all heard about my favorite magazine: Bitch/Feminist Response to Pop Culture. For my money ($15 for 4 issues, that is) this is the smartest, funniest, and downright BEST feminist magazine that I know of! It's the kind of thing that distracts you from everything else from the second it arrives in your mailbox until you've savored every last word. The new issue has an article on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which hopefully makes this post more justified. To keep it short, here is the info (their website is under construction): Bitch: Feminist Response to Pop Culture 3128 16th st, box 143, San Francisco, CA 94103 www.bitchmagazine.com If anyone would like further info, or to curse me, feel free to email me offlist! Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 01:45:10 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Valarie Eakes-Kann Subject: BDG: Slow River - Nicola Griffith pages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm no longer able to wait until Monday to jump into discussion on the book. But first some late night trips on the web... Here's an official web page that has has e-mail answered by Nicola (pictures to put a face to a name), essays and interviews. She answers some interesting questions about _Slow River_ and her other books... http://www.sff.net/people/Nicola/ A not so official? web page in with more bio information and links to info on her work. http://euro.net/mark-space/bioNicolaGriffith.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 02:46:00 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Valarie Eakes-Kann Subject: BDG: Slow River - Early start couldn't wait... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What a great way to release my English major tendencies, and in a genre that wasn't covered... I picked this book up specifically for this discussion and I slipped into analysis reading mode so I think I may have missed some of the emotional impact. However, I did enjoy this book and was thoroughly pleased at different points with the writing and images used. I don't judge science fiction just on it's entertainment value, because I think sf is where our ideas of the world can be expanded by allowing us to safely sympathize with something alien, an idea or political view, etc. that in real life we would be totally against. We, the readers, can try on these other clothes, and what a wardrobe it is! I was not expecting to be impressed with _Slow River_ because when I read _Ammonite_ I was reading _Native Tongue_ at the same time and was more thoroughly drawn into Suzette Hadin Elgin's world and felt her writing was significantly better than Griffith's. Probably an unfair and untimely comparison. About halfway through _Slow River_ p136 or so, I realized that the plot had not really begun yet, or at least I didn't know what was going on, everything to that point was setup and I put the book down for a few days but picked it up again and the writing was fresh and I had no problems finishing. I thought overall it was a good book, with good to great writing, but it didn't speak to me in my gut... I don't consider this book feminist, except that the female characters are strong, or not, capable or not, and are definitely fleshed out characters and not just sidekicks or mothers, wives or girlfriends. So perhaps it's feminist in the sense that women are assumed to be major players. There is no internal discussion of women's roles and how they relate to men's roles they are simply "there" right alongside men, it's unselfconcious and just is. Strangely I find the most feminist note to be the mistaken belief that Lore thought her father was the one abusing her sister Stella, when in fact it was her mother Katerine who was the abuser. No one suspected except the abusees and Tok. It's kind of a backhanded feminist statement. In real life my initial assumption would have been the father did it. I like how this challenges that assumption and challenges me to figure out why I assumed it was the father. Why couldn't it be the mother? A women is just as likely to, when having been abused as a child, to grow up to become an abuser, right?. Why did the father not consider it? Why were the children unable to tell the father? Especially since I didn't see the resistence to listening to the children that is often in the TV movie mothers when the father is the abuser. Why did Lore assume it was her father? When Tok made his accusation all he said was "That monster, that monster did it...." or some such, no assumption of gender, but I assumed one, and Lore did too. Maybe Lore blocked out the possibility because her mother had been there to comfort her when she woke up from the nightmare. What a strange item on which to create equality - child-abuse. P.S. I may send another note on this later, but I didn't want to flood the starting gate.... I had an almost physical reaction to the dislocation fetish which was very similar to my reaction to the ha'atahan (or whatever) hand surgery from _The Sparrow_. How do writers imagine these horrible things, how have humans devised such tortures for eachother and why does it take these images to get my strongest reaction in a book.... Valerie (newbie to the list, sf lover, f liker - if it's the right f, and book discussion enthusiast) Valerie Eakes-Kann vekann@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:52:31 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: BDG: Slow River MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Valarie Eakes-Kann wrote: [Re Lore's abuse by her mother] In real life my initial assumption would have been the > father did it. I like how this challenges that assumption and > challenges me to figure out why I assumed it was the father. Why > couldn't it be the mother? A women is just as likely to, when having > been abused as a child, to grow up to become an abuser, right?. Like Val, I was also surprised at this turnabout. However, I just have to point out that this common "abused children usually abuse thier children" logic is and has always been flawed. We know from statistics (which are not terribly reliable, I know, but they're what we've got) that girls are more frequently abused than boys and that men are most often the perpetrators of abuse. In the logic that abused children become abusive adults, we would expect to see women as the majority of abusers and this is not the case. I loved _Slow River_, but this has got me wondering why so many of the women in it are abusive and manipulative, that is, Lore's mother, Spanner- who exploits Lore's powerlessness- and the older sister who engineered her kidnap and torture. On the other hand, you have the rebellious sister who kills herself, the lesbian couple who helps Lori get her new ID, and Lore's surpervisor/lover. Hmmmm... Susan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 10:24:22 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG: Slow River discussion open Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" OK, it's open season on the Slow River discussion. Let's join Valerie in talking about this great book. A couple of admin-type messages first: as most of you know, Nicola Griffith is part of our on-line community. Please don't let that keep you from making less-than-effusive comments; our discussions are always more lively and interesting when there are multiple views represented. Just make an effort to keep your comments as specific as possible (both positive and negative) and try to avoid personal attacks. Also if you're new to the list you may not be aware that we had an organized discussion earlier on Griffith's book Ammonite. You can retrieve an archive of that from our BDG web site at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/index.html Janice has also posted archives of the recent Jaran and Grass discussions there. Finally, now that discussion is underway, no spoiler notices are required in your postings. On to the discussion, then. I've been re-reading Slow River and like it even better the second time. It's difficult to skim, as I want to enjoy every word. I'm struck by how effectively the switch between first person voice in the present and third-person voice in the past evokes the sense of two different Lores. The past life of privilege and innocence is represented as if it's happening in a dream, to someone else. I also like the frequent references to plants as an indication of the presence or absence of life and hope, either as a growing garden or the hothouse showing Lore's rebuilding self-esteem or Spanner lowering her personal walls a bit, or Lore weeping over the death of the cheese plant or seeing the squirrels eat her bulbs. I am always aware of plants and animals around me, and when I read books that include that awareness it really pulls me in. I was also struck by a comparison with Jaran, in that the protagonist is a woman of privilege who must figure out how to get along without her family status or expensive technology. It's difficult, both physically and emotionally. She is surprised at how rewarding it is to even just survive on her own, and to find out who she really is, and then to be loved for herself. What did you think? Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:41:32 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lori B Pfahler Subject: BDG: Slow River - Lore's Age? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I really enjoyed this story. At first I thought the jumping around in time would be distracting but it was great how the story was revealed piece by piece. I read it in two days and still did my normal work - which meant I didn't sleep much. The only thing that didn't work for me was the amount of science/knowledge Lore had accumulated by the time she was 18. I didn't know what a LC50 was till I entered graduate school. Is Lore gifted or have schooling techniques improved so much in the near future that Lore can amass knowledge quickly? A newbie - enjoying the list, Lori B. Pfahler Lori_B_Pfahler@rohmhaas.com Statistics Support Group Rohm and Haas Company Spring House Research Labs "These are my opinions and not those of the Rohm and Haas Company" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 18:29:25 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Valarie Eakes-Kann Subject: Re: BDG: Slow River - Lore's Age? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lori B Pfahler wrote: > The only thing that didn't work for me was the amount of > science/knowledge Lore had accumulated by the time she was 18. I > didn't know what a LC50 was till I entered graduate school. Is Lore > gifted or have schooling techniques improved so much in the near > future that Lore can amass knowledge quickly? That point didn't bother me because I figured she grew up with it and future education *would* probably be advanced. Of course maybe it helps that I still have no idea what LC50 is. :) I imagined that her family lived with all of the details of their family business all of the time. She was probably picking up the vocabulary as she was learning to speak. I do see your point though, she's managing the project for a whole area when I'm just now at 27 learning project management for a piece of a project. Then again maybe there was a genetic thing with the gray eyes and hair.... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 18:43:48 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Valarie Eakes-Kann Subject: Re: BDG: Slow River MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer Krauel wrote: > I'm struck by how > effectively the switch between first person voice in the present and > third-person voice in the past evokes the sense of two different Lores. > The past life of privilege and innocence is represented as if it's > happening in a dream, to someone else. I like the dream idea. I struggled at first with the changes in focus and voice. It took me a while to figure out that there were only a few different 'paths'. I only saw two Lores, the previous and the present, but there were all of these references to three. I'm assuming the other Lore was the kidnapped, naked and desperate Lore. I think it depends on whether you see that period as an actual space in time or a point where things changed, like a geometric point... I originally read it as a point of change, but I realized towards the end that the author was giving plenty of signs that there were three periods of time, three ways that Lore thought of herself. Once I figured out there were really only three narratives I like how they changed more quickly and were more directly relevent to what was happening in the next piece, towards the end. Like the little whirl- pool in a toilet coming together and becoming more tight towards the end. (Toilet came to mind because of water reclamation, of course! :) ) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 18:55:19 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Valarie Eakes-Kann Subject: BDG: Slow River - Title MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, so why the title of _Slow River_? Lore's seemingly slow return to her source? The slow flow of water through the reclamation plants because of all of the treatments the water goes through, before it comes out 'pure' at the other end? Did Lore come out 'pure' on the other end? I think she went through some horrible treatment and ended up in a better place in a loving, healthy (as far as I could tell) relationship and much stronger because she knew herself. But she went through a lot. I could have killed Spanner when Lore found out the drug work was a vicious cycle to be able to buy the drug in the first place... of course Lore didn't look very hard in that general direction until later... Is it because she had lost her identity that she was more able to do the things she wouldn't have done earlier? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 21:11:10 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: BDG: Slow River - Title MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I found this an uncomfortable book. Grubby is the word that comes to mind. There is so much physical, mental and spiritual violation in it. Doesn't mean I didn't read every word. I did. The writing is lovely, of course... but it does feel to me as if the Slow River is the sewage, the waste parts of life that flow through our bodies and minds and we hope somehow get purified in some way... ways that Lore didn't have control over. She could handle the plant. (Actually, I was pleased to see a woman doing something besides a dead-end space jockey job.) But it's a metaphor for her life... flowing, not generated by herself, handling the waste products of everyone else. Lore's passivity bothered me. Was she unable to act in her own defense, when she was naked and scared, because she had not had to do that before? That didn't quite make sense to me. She's a smart woman. I thought at first she must just be very young, but that was not the reason. If I could ask the author a question, it would be: did you mean for me [readers] to have a kind of love/hate relationship with your characters and the theme of this book? Lore's expertise didn't bother me at all. I'm a sign painter's daughter. Ask me anything about signs -- painted or neon -- I grew up with it. I could blow glass when I was ten. In fact, Lore was strong and in command of herself on the job, and that made sense to me. When she could do something she knew, she was a whole person; she fell apart when she clocked out. That made me want to both shake her and hug her to me. And I was a little put off by the ending. It smacks a bit of "all you need is a good woman/man." Then life goes right... Shucks, we all know better. Good book. best phoebe Phoebe Wray zozi@aol.com