From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Sat Sep 11 14:26:56 1999 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:49:53 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG9906C" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 06:53:07 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: donna simone Subject: Re: BDG Slow River MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I had problems with this book. I appreciated the skill, but didn't like the >message........> I found the message(s) of overcoming numerous suffocating and horrifying entrapments (self imposed, family imposed or real life imposed), overcoming ones past, breaking the cycle of abuse, finding one's true self (or at least beginning to), and moving up to the uppermost regions of a self-defined "jungle" of glorious humanity to be the most powerfully positive messages I have encountered in some time. donna ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 20:39:38 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lindy Lovvik Subject: Re: BDG Slow River MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit donna simone wrote: > >I had problems with this book. I appreciated the skill, but didn't like the > >message........> > > I found the message(s) of overcoming numerous suffocating and horrifying entrapments (self imposed, > family imposed or real life imposed), overcoming ones past, breaking the cycle of abuse, finding > one's true self (or at least beginning to), and moving up to the uppermost regions of a self-defined > "jungle" of glorious humanity to be the most powerfully positive messages I have encountered in some > time. AND there's the message that one may find love (or potential love) unexpectedly, despite all of the incidents of abuse and abusing, and finding oneself, etc. One thing I especially like about _Slow River_ is the complexity of the characters. No one is unmarked by life--not even the financially privileged. Theft, prostitution, scams, bacterial monopolies. Lore participates in making a stealth porno recording of Ruth and (?), (the woman who stole the "Bird" ID chip and her partner. . . ). Later, Lore initiates an attempt to be friends with these women, and has some success. And then there's Spanner. . . what a memorable character! A woman driven to the point of renting her body to someone who abuses it horribly, and is prepared to suffer the injuries alone. I got the sense that Spanner's personal philosophy was somewhere between "freedom from others and government at all cost" and "I am a human" and "I am nothing." I thought it was interesting that we got to know so little about Katerine. . . it made it easier to condemn her as most monstrous. The characters of Katerine's children indicated the effects of this toxic personality, of course. Too bad there isn't a detoxification treatment for personality disorders, eh? Lots of people in this novel are seeking power, be it financial, sexual, corporate: power-over, or power-to. The messages and characters rang clear in my mind. Well, now I'm rambling. I regret having missed most of the discussion, and it's showing. Lindy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 00:02:13 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Slow River I was surprised when I went to Nicola's page to see that Slow River is a stand alone book, no plans for a continuation. It leaves the brilliant, beautiful, controlled and controlling and very diseased Katerine loose on the world with Greta the henchwoman as her probable assistant. I see the Batsignal going up any day. This has got to be a crazed duo out for total world domination. Then there's Spanner. Unfortunately I know there are people who live long lives and never learn to love themselves or others, never grow emotionally or spiritually. But come on,, not Spanner. Some little tree has to take root and pull her out of her destructiveness, doesn't it? Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:28:32 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: BDG Slow River In-Reply-To: <001201beb7c6$29aa8040$0bc9fcd0@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed There have been a lot of comments about feeling unclean after reading this book, as well as about the positive message. I don't think these are contradictory at all; I felt them both. Just because you triumph over horrible situations doesn't mean they weren't horrible. (I saw _Life Is Beautiful_ this weekend...a marvelous movie about a man who is sent, with his son, to a concentration camp in WWII Italy, and pretends it's a game to shield his son from the horror. Wonderful depiction of the greatness of the human spirit. But I stayed up late reading a fluffy magazine because I was afraid I'd dream about it.) My question for Nicola is whether this mixture is something you intended, or expected. Did it feel as grungy and unhappy (as well as cleansing and redeeming) on your end? jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:21:58 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: BDG Slow River MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My question for Nicola is whether this mixture is something you intended, > or expected. Did it feel as grungy and unhappy (as well as cleansing and > redeeming) on your end? It's difficult to remember now what I expected or intended when I first conceived this book, but I can tell you that when I put together the outline and realized what it meant and where it would go, I dreaded starting. I was worried that I would somehow make abuse and degradation titillating or glamourous. I was afraid the whole thing would turn into one of those litanies of women's humiliation that so many women writers seem to fall into. But I knew that in order for the reader to feel Lore's triumph, to understand just what it meant for her to survive and emerge as herself, the reader would also have to go to the bad places. I felt like a monster, sometimes, when I found myself writing about Spanner watching and practically salivating while Lore shaves off her body hair and begins the process of prostituting herself. I shuddered at how easy it is to envisage being that kind of predator (and prey, of course), how I could believe and even understand the erotics of dislocation--how I could even *imagine* such a thing. Every now and again, yes, I felt unclean. Then I came to see that this is only the imagination, that nothing anyone has ever imagined is bad in and of itself. It's what you *do* with that imagination that counts. If I had written a novel that celebrated those imaginary horrors, if I went out and acted out some of those imaginary events, then, yes, I think I would deserve to feel bad. But feeling unclean simply because I could imagine unpleasant things came to seem...ridiculous. Imagination is a tool, like a knife. It might look viciously sharp, but that merely makes it useful, more itself, not necessarily wicked. This is a complicated question to answer. I find myself wanting to ramble on about my philosophy of what makes a person a good human being, about self-censorship and probably a million and one other only vaguely related topics--which I won't go into here, for several reasons (i.e. I haven't thought it through yet, it's probably not relevant to the book discussion, and other people might find it boring ). But, in a nutshell, it seems to me that being who we are is about what we do, not about what we imagine. Imagination is just the potential; the action is the reality. So, yes, writing Slow River felt bad in places, but imagining it felt worse. Once it was written and I read it through, it didn't feel bad at all: it seemed to me that I had achieved a lot of what I had set out to do. (Not as well as I would have liked, of course, because that's the nature of the beast: it's never possible--for me, anyway--to transcribe the perfect, glittering vision to the page.) I had learnt more about what it is to be human, both good and bad; people seemed bigger, denser, more complex and amazing than ever. The journey felt worth it to me. It still does. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.sff.net/people/Nicola ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:55:19 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG Slow River MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/16/99 7:23:19 PM, Nicola wrote: <> And surely is! What a marvelous response. Many thanks. phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:16:10 -0700 Reply-To: Pamela Bedore Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Xenogenesis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm looking forward to discussing Octavia Butler's *Wild Seed* in August, but wondered if we could chat about her other work a little earlier. I'm working on the Xenogenesis Trilogy right now, and would be delighted to hear about other people's reactions to these novels, and especially to the Oankali. I found myself really liking the Oankali, admiring (or perhaps envying) their physiological abilities, and understanding most of their actions, including their hesitation to begin a Mars colony for humans who were genetically destined to destroy themselves. And yet, I noticed that Butler emphasizes the coersiveness of the Oankali throughout this series...I wonder why. I love that Butler never offers straight-forward texts or characters, and I feel that readers can take from the book what they need. How do others see the Xenogenesis trilogy fitting in with the rest of Butler's work? Especially with the *Parable* books? Cheers, pamela bedore department of english simon fraser university ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 15:18:26 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: Xenogenesis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I picked up the same kind of ambivilence from that series; I think I was um...either almost done with the first book or partway done with the second book before I started really _seeing_ things from the humans' POV; I was SO frustrated with Lilith's stubbornness at first, but there was a point when I started thinking "you know, it really ISN'T fair, and the humans really SHOULD have a chance". I was never able to demonize the Oankali, though, even after that. I really appreciated the ambivilance, after a while; makes it more thought-provoking. I also recently read "The Riddle of the Wren" by Charles De Lint, and I had the same feeling of frustration through that entire book; The main character was SO un-trusting and SO stubborn about it and she kept causing herself problems because of it. -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Pamela Bedore [mailto:pebedore@SFU.CA] > Sent: Friday, June 18, 1999 2:16 PM > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU-LIT*] Xenogenesis > > > I'm looking forward to discussing Octavia Butler's *Wild > Seed* in August, > but wondered if we could chat about her other work a little earlier. > > I'm working on the Xenogenesis Trilogy right now, and would > be delighted > to hear about other people's reactions to these novels, and > especially to > the Oankali. I found myself really liking the Oankali, admiring (or > perhaps envying) their physiological abilities, and > understanding most of > their actions, including their hesitation to begin a Mars colony for > humans who were genetically destined to destroy themselves. > > And yet, I noticed that Butler emphasizes the coersiveness of > the Oankali > throughout this series...I wonder why. > > I love that Butler never offers straight-forward texts or > characters, and > I feel that readers can take from the book what they need. > How do others > see the Xenogenesis trilogy fitting in with the rest of Butler's work? > Especially with the *Parable* books? > > Cheers, > > pamela bedore > department of english > simon fraser university > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:04:54 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Valerie Eakes-Kann Subject: BDG Slow River - POV MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit By George, I think I've got it... And it was pretty obvious when I looked for it so I'm feeling a little sheepish about being so slow... In the 3rd person narrative Lore is giving up her independence to Spanner. In the 1st person Lore is taking it back, coming back to her "I". Just as the 3rd person is about Lore, an omniscient narrator looking in on her, the 1st person is coming from her she has things to say and think directly in the narrative... So the next thing I'd like to look at is which voice is used during transition periods... Valerie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:04:02 GMT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Butler's _Xenogenesis_ series Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My response to all of Butler's work is ususally fairly multilayered, developing over time. It's been a few years since I read the trilogy in its entirety, but I've read it multiple times and taught it. S P O I L E R S B E L O W Some of my responses: --the incredible stunning parallels to the American system of slavery in which a people were removed from their homes, transported across the "Middle Passage" and thrown into a system which attempted to 'remake' them entirely--destroying their cultures, languages (attempts were made during slavery to separate families and large groups speaking the same language), and their "bodies" (which were legally deemed "property"). Forced rape and forced bearing of children was a part of this system. The Oankali are subjecting humans (of various colors/ethnicites) to a similar process--by force. And the humans' response to that is a major part of the conflict of the novels. --The playing on traditional science fiction ideas. I love the irony in the situation which Lilith realizes early on regarding the nuclear holocaust. This series is set after a nuclear holocaust during which most of the "white" peoples in the northern hemisphere were killed, and the "brown" and "black" peoples in the southern hemisphere survived (the initial blowing up at least--the Oankali arrived before some of the secondary effects would set in, I seem to recall). It makes total sense: after all, the US and Russia had mostly targeted each other--doubt during the seventies/eighties that many bombs were set for South America, Africa, or India from the superpowers at least (not saying which countries in those areas had their own bombs set!), and is a wonderful 'signifying' upon the science fiction trope of the nuclear holocaust in which only a few doughty whites survive! --the abovementioned nuclear holocaust of course wiped out species other than humans--as I recall the Oankali pretty much think the surviving humans are responsible for that wiping out, and the Oankali are there to rescue the multiple species of Earth, including humans. --while the Oankali seem to be morally superior to humans at the start (lots of readers, including myself seem to think they are pretty positive in some ways), they too are 'limited' by their genetic structure as are humans. (The Oankali claim that the humans are genetically inclined to intelligence, and hierarchical behavior, I think--and both together are a problem). The Oankali however MUST swap genes because they are so created by their genes. The strongly essentialist notion of creation is rather depressing. The the Oankali are a fascinating thought experiment as an alien species that is incredibly different. However, the Oankali are not "perfect," and the way the series work out show that they benefit from the insights of the human/oankali children. --I like how Butler deals with both "race" and "gender." Some of Lilith's problems with her fellow humans come from her being female and being put in charge. The human villagers who escape the Oankali and set up their own culture revert to sexism right away.....except that the human groups under the Oankali seem to be pretty focused on family/reproduction. Nothing is easy with Butler's stories. The three-sexed nature of the Oankali, and the issue of the telepathic sex/fantastic orgasms is fascinating. --Her real challenge comes in the creation of the ooloi narrator later on (Lilith is not the main character/protagonist/narrator of all three novels, and if I recall, there's a shift from third to first person). I find Butler a fascinating writer, though her work often makes me uneasy in many ways. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:06:50 -0400 Reply-To: Lyla Miklos Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Organization: SMS Subject: Re: Xenogenesis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ugh! I sound like I just woke up from a hangover in this. I apologise. > > I'm looking forward to discussing Octavia Butler's *Wild Seed* in August, > > but wondered if we could chat about her other work a little earlier. > > Me too. > > I'm working on the Xenogenesis Trilogy right now, and would be delighted > > to hear about other people's reactions to these novels, and especially to > > the Oankali. I found myself really liking the Oankali, admiring (or > > perhaps envying) their physiological abilities, and understanding most of > > their actions, including their hesitation to begin a Mars colony for > > humans who were genetically destined to destroy themselves. I'm reading the Trilogy myself right now. Cuurently on the second book. What an amazing concept!?! I'm enjoying it lots. I want to get to the end of the trilogy before I make a final assessment. But so far it already raises a whole plethora of issues, some of them very disturbing. > LL&P > Lyla