From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Fri Sep 10 19:37:51 1999 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:49:54 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG9906D" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 02:59:49 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: Kindred It's been so long since I read Xenogenesis, that I can't comment much about it except that I remember liking it very much. However, I just finished Kindred and can say a few words about it. Butler's main character, Dana, is (coincidentally) a young black woman author married to a young white male author. Through some kind of psychic connection she's drawn from her time, 1976, to ante-bellum Maryland to rescue her white great-great grandfather every time he's in danger of dying. The only way she gets back to her time is to be in danger of dying herself. This book gives a very well rounded view of slavery from house slaves to field slaves. It also gives a surprising to me well rounded view of the slave owners. While Butler is able to show that no one is all bad or all good, she does a very good job of showing the effects of slavery on the entire lives of the slaves and on the emotional lives of the slave holders. Sometimes when Dana is narrating her life in the 1800's I had to ask myself how I, a 20th century person, could possibly have endured those times. The answer is that some didn't, and all were harmed. Dana asks herself how she can be so forgiving of Rufus, her ancestor; but she has the luxury of staying her same age yet experiencing his maturity from a drowning little boy to the master of the plantation. It's easier to forgive a person if you can remember his childhood innocence. I think she does an excellent job of showing how ownership of other people can so blind the slaveholders that they're immune to the concept of humanity. She interweaves the question of duty to yourself and duty to your community, making every decision Dana makes a struggle between the two. I think these are all ideas she uses in Xenogenesis. I'm wondering if we'll find them in Wild Seed. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 06:09:48 -0700 Reply-To: camiller@gte.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Cathie Miller Subject: offlist discussions Comments: To: feministsf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I apologize for being a slow learner. I can't believe that discussions are being taken offlist. I don't understand the point of two lists, anyway, but at least ONE of them should be for the discussion of feminist sf. It is absolutely absurd to me that feminists can't discuss feminism. Who is supposed to discuss it? This is fodder for a Vonnegut book. Or, Spinrad. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:03:31 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG Sept-Dec discussion selections Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It's time to pick the next round of books. Starting tomorrw, we will be selecting books for discussions in September through December. Please plan to send your *nomination* beginning this Wednesday via e-mail to this list, the feministsf-lit list only. Note we're trying something different this time to keep the nominations list smaller: each person can only nominate one book. So please think carefully about which book you want to nominate! The schedule for the next round of nominations and voting is: Nominations This Wed June 23 - Tues June 29 Voting Wed June 30 - Tues July 6 Selections announced Wednesday July 7th Already scheduled upcoming discussions are: July 5 Connie Willis: To Say Nothing of the Dog Aug 2 Octavia Butler: Wild Seed For more information about the selection process you can visit this page on the BDG web site: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/bdg_selection.html Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:39:23 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Xenogenesis Comments: To: Pamela Bedore In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Jun 1999, Pamela Bedore wrote: > I'm working on the Xenogenesis Trilogy right now, and would be delighted > to hear about other people's reactions to these novels, and especially to > the Oankali. I found myself really liking the Oankali, admiring (or > perhaps envying) their physiological abilities, and understanding most of > their actions, including their hesitation to begin a Mars colony for > humans who were genetically destined to destroy themselves. I've only read the first book and have no plans to read the rest. I got such a sense of futility from the first book. In a way, I could understand the Oankali and there drive to mix with other species but I identified too much with the humans who were unwilling mixees (not a good word but I couldn't think of a better one). > And yet, I noticed that Butler emphasizes the coersiveness of the Oankali > throughout this series...I wonder why. I think that is what really turned me off. The Oankali didn't really attempt to understand the humans. They were only determined to get what they wanted and showed little compassion for what the humans were suffering. I know, they were alien but Butler made it easy for me to see why the humans didn't like or trust the Oankali. That is probably the effect that she was trying to achieve. > pamela bedore > department of english > simon fraser university > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:31:45 -0400 Reply-To: Lyla Miklos Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Organization: SMS Subject: Re: Xenogenesis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've only read the first book and have no plans to read the rest. I got > such a sense of futility from the first book. In a way, I could understand > the Oankali and there drive to mix with other species but I identified too > much with the humans who were unwilling mixees (not a good word but I > couldn't think of a better one). > > > And yet, I noticed that Butler emphasizes the coersiveness of the Oankali > > throughout this series...I wonder why. > > I think that is what really turned me off. The Oankali didn't really > attempt to understand the humans. They were only determined to get what > they wanted and showed little compassion for what the humans were > suffering. I know, they were alien but Butler made it easy for me to see > why the humans didn't like or trust the Oankali. That is probably the > effect that she was trying to achieve. I find this reaction to Butler's Trilogy intriquing. I didn't have any negative feelings toward the Oankali at all, except in one scene. I saw them as the rubber dingy in the middle of the ocean. My attitude was if they want to throw us a bone, we might as well take it. As far as I could tell all the humans on Earth were either dead or dying along with all the vegatation and wildlife on the planet. Did this species have any business being there? I don't know. Maybe they felt they could do no worse than we had already done to ourselves. Despite the fact that the humans resented the Oankali's help, the humans were not doing all that much better on their own. They were self destructive and violent and self defeating time and time again. My view was that a joining with the Oankali was our next step on that evolutionary chain. There were times that I found what the Oankali were doing offensive, such as the "rape" of Lilith to impregnate her. That scene bothered me a lot. Gave a whole new significance to the phrase "NO MEANS NO." Although I was surprised to see humans reacting with so much fear towards them. If an alian approached me in as non-threatening a way as the Oankali did I don't know if I would have been as paralysed with fear as so many of the characters in the novels appeared. Are the Oankali evil? I don't believe so. Is what they are doing right? Again, to them I don't think it is either right or wrong, it just is the way they are. I took great offense to a Star Trek film where Picard descibed the Borg as evil. For thoose of you not in to Trek, The Borg are a hive like alien race that find new life and assimilate and make it a part of their collective. I don't believe the Borg are any more evil than a swarm of bees or an ant hill. The Borg are the Borg and that's what Borg do, they don't do it with malicious intent, they do it simply because that's what they were put on this universe to do. I'd like to know what the writer was trying to say with her Trilogy. I loved her collection of short stories for that reason. She had an afterword after every story explaining what she was trying to say and also killing any ideas that others had imposed on her work previously. I'm not sure if Butler's Trilogy is about slavery or about human nature or about something else entirely. Lyla Miklos ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:28:56 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: Xenogenesis Comments: To: Lyla Miklos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > I find this reaction to Butler's Trilogy intriquing. > I didn't have any negative feelings toward the Oankali at > all, except in one > scene. > I saw them as the rubber dingy in the middle of the ocean. > My attitude was if they want to throw us a bone, we might as > well take it. > As far as I could tell all the humans on Earth were either > dead or dying > along with all the vegatation and wildlife on the planet. > Did this species have any business being there? > I don't know. > Maybe they felt they could do no worse than we had already done to > ourselves. > Despite the fact that the humans resented the Oankali's help, > the humans > were not doing all that much better on their own. > They were self destructive and violent and self defeating > time and time > again. > My view was that a joining with the Oankali was our next step on that > evolutionary chain. This is _exactly_ how I felt, and this is part of why I had so much TROUBLE relating to the humans in all their xenophobia. I think another part of it is that I've lived this long (29 years) and have absolutely no urge to have children; that need to reproduce "pure humans" seems to be what's driving the humans in the books, and I just can NOT relate first-hand to it. It bothered me more that the ones that went along with the Oankali were FORCED to have children than it did that the ones that didn't weren't allowed to. -Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:37:55 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Conners-Holliday Subject: Re: Xenogenesis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C7_01BEBD85.FAE89880" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01BEBD85.FAE89880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pamela wrote: >> I've only read the first book and have no plans to read the rest. I = got >> such a sense of futility from the first book. >> I had the same reaction when i read Butlers first book in the = Xenogenesis series and have only been intrigued to read the others after this very interesting discussion. It is obviously meant as a series and some of = my gripes and discomfort might be clarified as i read more. >> > And yet, I noticed that Butler emphasizes the coersiveness of the >Oankali throughout this series...I wonder why. I think that is what really turned me off. The Oankali didn't really attempt to understand = the humans. They were only determined to get what they wanted and showed = little compassion for what the humans were suffering. One of the problems that the oankali state that affected earth that i = can dig up from my hazy memory is the hierarchichal nature of the human = species, but it would suggest to me that the trade on genetic material they = impose and their manipulitive ways are just as negative and removed from = collective decision-making etc. I would have to read it again to check. Lyla wrote: >Although I was surprised to see humans reacting with so much fear = towards them. >If an alian approached me in as non-threatening a way as the Oankali = did I don't know if I would have been as paralysed with fear as so many of the characters in the novels appeared. It probably helps that you read sci-fi novels and have a fascination = with other worlds. We are taught to fear the unknown, it is demonized and if = we look at the way popular sci-fi film especially portrays aliens the = majority of people from western nations are quite likely to react in such ways. >Are the Oankali evil? >I don't believe so. >Is what they are doing right? >Again, to them I don't think it is either right or wrong, it just is = the way >they are. > >I took great offense to a Star Trek film where Picard descibed the Borg = as evil. The Borg are the Borg and that's what Borg do, they don't do it = with m alicious intent, they do it simply because that's what they were put on = this universe to do. I disagree. The Borg have accumulated knowledge from every species they assimilate and seek to make one species that exist. This desire to eradicate all other species and their differences from the Borg is very authoritative and any attempt at such homogenization cannot, in my = opinion anyway, be explained away as "that is what they were put on this earth = to do". They might not be evil, but there actions definately are, and how = do you separate the two? Same with the Oankali, their coerciveness is not = an innocent trait of the way they are, there is no innocence of actions as = it is informed by their desire to trade genes without proper consideration = of, for example, the surviving humans and their input into the way the trade progresses. NOw i think i might be rambling. If this doesn't make sense it is = because the book was read years ago...sorry in advance Shaz ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01BEBD85.FAE89880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pamela wrote:
>> I've only read the first book and have no = plans=20 to read the rest. I got
>> such a sense of futility from the = first=20 book. >>

I had the same reaction when i read Butlers first = book in=20 the Xenogenesis
series and have only been intrigued to read the = others after=20 this very
interesting discussion.  It is obviously meant as a = series and=20 some of my
gripes and discomfort might be clarified as i read=20 more.


>> > And yet, I noticed that Butler emphasizes = the=20 coersiveness of the
>Oankali throughout this series...I wonder=20 why.   I think that is what
really turned me off. The = Oankali=20 didn't really attempt to understand the
humans. They were only = determined to=20 get what  they wanted and showed little
compassion for what the = humans=20 were suffering.



One of the problems that the oankali = state that=20 affected earth that i can
dig up from my hazy memory is the = hierarchichal=20 nature of the human species,
but it would suggest to me that the = trade on=20 genetic material they impose
and their manipulitive ways are just as = negative=20 and removed from collective
decision-making etc.  I would have = to read=20 it again to check.

Lyla wrote:
>Although I was surprised to = see=20 humans reacting with so much fear towards
them.
>If an alian = approached=20 me in as non-threatening a way as the Oankali did I
don't know if I = would=20 have been as paralysed with fear as so many of the
characters in the = novels=20 appeared.


It probably helps that you read sci-fi novels and = have a=20 fascination with
other worlds.  We are taught to fear the = unknown, it is=20 demonized and if we
look at the way popular sci-fi film especially = portrays=20 aliens the majority
of people from western nations are quite likely = to react=20 in such ways.
>Are the Oankali evil?
>I don't believe = so.
>Is=20 what they are doing right?
>Again, to them I don't think it is = either=20 right or wrong, it just is the
way
>they are.
>
>I = took=20 great offense to a Star Trek film where Picard descibed the Borg = as
evil. The=20 Borg are the Borg and that's what Borg do, they don't do it with = m
alicious=20 intent, they do it simply because that's what they were put on = this
universe=20 to do.

I disagree.  The Borg have accumulated knowledge from = every=20 species they
assimilate and seek to make one species that = exist.  This=20 desire to
eradicate all other species and their differences from the = Borg is=20 very
authoritative and any attempt at such homogenization cannot, in = my=20 opinion
anyway, be explained away as "that is what they were put = on this=20 earth to
do".  They might not be evil, but there actions = definately=20 are, and how do
you separate the two?  Same with the Oankali, = their=20 coerciveness is not an
innocent trait of the way they are, there is = no=20 innocence of actions as it
is informed by their desire to trade genes = without=20 proper consideration of,
for example, the surviving humans and their = input=20 into the way the trade
progresses.

NOw i think i might be=20 rambling.  If this doesn't make sense it is because
the book was = read=20 years ago...sorry in advance
Shaz

------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01BEBD85.FAE89880-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:25:14 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Was Asimov a Feminist? In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.19990621190526.01993110@mail.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I know this sounds like a strange question. Asimov was Asimov. However, I'm reading some of his essays on science fiction, and noting his inclusive gender pronouns in the '70s, his amazing exploration of gender in *The Gods Themselves* and I'm wondering... I don't want to rehash the "What is a feminist?" question. But I would be delighted to know if he ever writes about women specifically in any essays (with the number of essays he's written, I doubt I'll ever get through them all!). Also, if any of the novels strike feminist chords. As well, does anyone know of a concordance or a searchable database of Asimov's work? Cheers, pamela bedore department of english simon fraser university ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:20:27 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Research Questions In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.19990621190526.01993110@mail.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I hope I'm not repeating old ground, although I have a feeling I might be... Does anyone know what percentage of science fiction writers publishing today are women? Ursula Le Guin says in a 1976 essay that her agent estimated at that time that 1 in 30 sf writers were women...I'd be interested in stats over the past 30 years if anyone has them. Or estimates :) pamela bedore ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:38:38 -0400 Reply-To: Lyla Miklos Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Organization: SMS Subject: Re: Xenogenesis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEBD5C.2BEC4D20" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEBD5C.2BEC4D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I disagree. The Borg have accumulated knowledge from every species = they assimilate and seek to make one species that exist. This desire to eradicate all other species and their differences from the Borg is = very authoritative and any attempt at such homogenization cannot, in my = opinion anyway, be explained away as "that is what they were put on this earth = to do". They might not be evil, but there actions definately are, and = how do you separate the two? Same with the Oankali, their coerciveness is = not an innocent trait of the way they are, there is no innocence of actions = as it is informed by their desire to trade genes without proper = consideration of, for example, the surviving humans and their input into the way the = trade progresses. Lyla: There was a very interest Star Trek novel a few years back written by = a husband and wife team, I'd tell you ther names, but I'm at work and = don't have my peronsal library with me. The novel was called First = Contact. There was a species very much like The Borg that were out to = destroy Earth, not because they want to have it's technology or make use = of their people, they simply saw it as LUNCH. The conclusion to the = novel and Captain Kirk's ultimate decision are very unstartreky. Very = disturbing. I wish Trek books were of that calibre now, they've really = gone downhill over the last five year, it's just a lot of garbage. I = haven't bought a new one in years. Ho hum. But I digress. This is where my assessment comes from. We are human and we percieve = things on a certain level, who's to say we are right and the Borg are = wrong. Is the way we do things really the way they should be done? Who = knows. Maybe we've got it all wrong, it's only human arrogance that = makes us believe we know what we are doing. I still don't think the Borg = are evil. Is a shark evil because he attacked you or bunch of termites = because they ate your home or locusts cause they ate your crops? To them = all of that's lunch. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEBD5C.2BEC4D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I disagree.  The Borg have accumulated knowledge from every = species=20 they
assimilate and seek to make one species that exist.  This = desire=20 to
eradicate all other species and their differences from the Borg = is=20 very
authoritative and any attempt at such homogenization cannot, = in my=20 opinion
anyway, be explained away as "that is what they were put on = this=20 earth to
do".  They might not be evil, but there actions = definately=20 are, and how do
you separate the two?  Same with the Oankali, = their=20 coerciveness is not an
innocent trait of the way they are, there is = no=20 innocence of actions as it
is informed by their desire to trade = genes=20 without proper consideration of,
for example, the surviving humans = and=20 their input into the way the trade
progresses.
 
Lyla:
There was a very interest Star Trek novel a few years back = written by a=20 husband and wife team, I'd tell you ther names, but I'm at work and = don't have=20 my peronsal library with me. The novel was called First Contact. There = was a=20 species very much like The Borg that were out to destroy Earth, not = because=20 they want to have it's technology or make use of their people, they = simply saw=20 it as LUNCH. The conclusion to the novel and Captain Kirk's ultimate = decision=20 are very unstartreky. Very disturbing. I wish Trek books were of that = calibre=20 now, they've really gone downhill over the last five year, it's just a = lot of=20 garbage. I haven't bought a new one in years. Ho hum. But I = digress.
 
This is where my assessment comes from. We are human and we = percieve=20 things on a certain level, who's to say we are right and the Borg are = wrong.=20 Is the way we do things really the way they should be done? Who knows. = Maybe=20 we've got it all wrong, it's only human arrogance that makes us = believe we=20 know what we are doing. I still don't think the Borg are evil. Is a = shark evil=20 because he attacked you or bunch of termites because they ate your = home or=20 locusts cause they ate your crops? To them all of that's lunch.
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEBD5C.2BEC4D20-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:42:13 -0400 Reply-To: Lyla Miklos Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Organization: SMS Subject: Re: Xenogenesis Comments: To: "Candioglos, Sandy" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is _exactly_ how I felt, and this is part of why I had so much TROUBLE > relating to the humans in all their xenophobia. I think another part of it > is that I've lived this long (29 years) and have absolutely no urge to have > children; that need to reproduce "pure humans" seems to be what's driving > the humans in the books, and I just can NOT relate first-hand to it. It > bothered me more that the ones that went along with the Oankali were FORCED > to have children than it did that the ones that didn't weren't allowed to. Maybe that's why I can't connect with the humans in the novel. I haven't one maternal bone in my body. I haven't had the desire to spawn in my entire life. The humans believe the only legacy that truly matters that they can leave behind is offspring, which I find rather limiting. There is so much more to humanity than bearing children. Lyla ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:00:10 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Was Asimov a Feminist?: Bedore Comments: cc: sani MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" It might not be on-topic for the book discussion, but you will find that Asimov, as a life-long New Deal Democrat, was broadly in favor of feminism, equal pay for equal work, greater access to every aspect of society for women, etc. He also was a Zero Population Growth advocate, and would argue that the increasing emancipation of women would also help curb excessive childbirth. So, within the limits and with the strengths of those positions (and perhaps taking into account his tendency to grope his female acquaintances and friends during the '50s and '60s), his references to feminism can be found in some of his sociological essays for THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY AND SF (from the monthly Science columns which form the backbone of most of his science-essay collections), probably in anything he published additionally about population growth, in his autobiographical books (IN MEMORY YET GREEN, IN JOY STILL FELT, I. ASIMOV), and perhaps, though I gave the copy I had to my father before I read it, in his last major nonfiction project, with Frederik Pohl, OUR ANGRY EARTH. -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Bedore [mailto:pebedore@SFU.CA] Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 1:25 AM To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU-LIT*] Was Asimov a Feminist? I know this sounds like a strange question. Asimov was Asimov. However, I'm reading some of his essays on science fiction, and noting his inclusive gender pronouns in the '70s, his amazing exploration of gender in *The Gods Themselves* and I'm wondering... I don't want to rehash the "What is a feminist?" question. But I would be delighted to know if he ever writes about women specifically in any essays (with the number of essays he's written, I doubt I'll ever get through them all!). Also, if any of the novels strike feminist chords. As well, does anyone know of a concordance or a searchable database of Asimov's work? Cheers, pamela bedore department of english simon fraser university ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:41:13 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: Research Questions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 22 Jun 99 Pamela Bedore wrote: > I hope I'm not repeating old ground, although I have a feeling I > might be... Does anyone know what percentage of science fiction > writers publishing today are women? > > Ursula Le Guin says in a 1976 essay that her agent estimated at that > time that 1 in 30 sf writers were women...I'd be interested in stats > over the past 30 years if anyone has them. Or estimates :) It does not directly answer your question but early this year David Truesdale wrote an editorial in TangentOnline (an online review magazine for SF short fiction) on the ratio of male/female authors published in the major SF magazines (see http://sfsite.com/tangent/others/dave02.htm ). The summary of it is as follows: Male to Female Published Story Ratios in SF and F Magazines 1. (U.S.) Crank! #8: 1:1 2. (Canadian) Northern Fusion #1: 1:1 3. (U.S.) Realms of Fantasy 1.1:1 4. (Canadian) On Spec 1.3:1 5. (U.S.) Space & Time 1.3:1 6. (U.S.) F&SF 1.9:1 7. (U.S.) Talebones 2.1:1 8. (Canadian) TransVersions 2.1:1 9. (Australian) Aurealis 2.4:1 10. (U.S.) Amazing 2.5:1 11. (U.S.) Asimov's 2.5:1 12. (UK) Interzone 2.5:1 13. (UK) Odyssey 2.5:1 14. (U.S.) Pulp Eternity 2.5:1 15. (U.S.) Weird Tales 2.5:1 16. (Australian) Eidolon 3:1 17. (U.S.) Event Horizon 3:1 18. (U.S.) Adventures of Sword & Sorcery 3.5:1 19. (U.S.) Analog 6.8:1 20. (U.S.) SF Age 7.3:1 21. (U.S.) Absolute Magnitude 8:1 22. (U.S.) MZB's Fantasy Magazine (Note: Female to Male ratio) 10.1:1 23. (U.S.) Aboriginal SF 11.5:1 24. (Australian) Altair 23:1 For the magazine F&SF Truesdale also compared the present ratio to the ratio in the sixties: F&SF January 1960-December 1964 = 6.7:1 in favor of male writers. F&SF July 1993-December 1998 = 1.9:1 in favor of male writers. I already posted this once on the old list, so my apologies to those who have seen this before. Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:56:33 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: FW: [*FSFFU-LIT*] Was Asimov a Feminist?: Ely (forwarded with per mission) Comments: cc: Virginia Ely MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Virginia Ely Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 12:52 PM To: Todd Mason Subject: RE: [*FSFFU-LIT*] Was Asimov a Feminist?: Bedore I'm not sure of the backround on this discussion, so I don't know if there is a lot of debate on the topic, but having had the very great pleasure of meeting the man socially on two occasions and hearing him speak on four, I personally have never seen anything to counter that he was not only a Feminist (fully aware that there's some debate on what that even means) but a strong believer in full equality for all. Perhaps Humanist is the best description (and now I'm feeling a little wistful about his passing, again). -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Bedore [mailto:pebedore@SFU.CA] Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 1:25 AM To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU-LIT*] Was Asimov a Feminist? I know this sounds like a strange question. Asimov was Asimov. However, I'm wondering... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:08:58 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: Xenogenesis In-Reply-To: <002101bebd7e$38cadb20$ebf3a1d1@lmiklos01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Lyla wrote: >Maybe that's why I can't connect with the humans in the novel. >I haven't one maternal bone in my body. >I haven't had the desire to spawn in my entire life. >The humans believe the only legacy that truly matters that they can leave >behind is offspring, which I find rather limiting. >There is so much more to humanity than bearing children. And while I totally agree that *now* bearing children isn't instrinsically more meaningful, more lasting in perpetuity than making some other contribution to "humanity" -- I might think differently if no one else was having children instead. Our physical shape, and the shape of our minds, aren't irrelevant to who we are. I'd be saddened to know that I was the last generation. There are a lot of things about myself that I don't feel the need to pass on...but I might change my mind if I knew that I was the only person left with those characteristics or that heritage or whatever. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:26:02 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage Subject: Re: Xenogenesis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEBD62.CAFA5280" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEBD62.CAFA5280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- =20 One of the problems that the oankali state that affected earth that = i can dig up from my hazy memory is the hierarchichal nature of the human = species, but it would suggest to me that the trade on genetic material they = impose and their manipulitive ways are just as negative and removed from = collective decision-making etc. I would have to read it again to check. =20 =20 Ah--here is a point that I believe was very, very important to the = series. The Oankali don't HAVE to think about collective decision = making because they can, in a sense, read other people's minds. They = have organs which can "read" another being's motives and thoughts at the = molecular level. I think Butler might be hinting that the only way two = discrete beings CAN truly communicate would be to have that level of = awareness. The Oankali have often been misread, and the misreading = usually seems to stem from a desire to read them as a metaphor for human = behavior. Instead, I think it makes sense to see them a sort of control = group in Butler's mental experiments. "What if," she might have been = thinking, "there was an entity which was neither male nor female but had = experience with males and females, was intelligent but not at all human, = was aware of human history but not at all bound by it, and was able to = communicate with absolute clarity but was not a 'hive' culture?" Viola, = the Oankali. They act as a foil for human behavior and motives, rather = than as a metaphor for us. =20 =20 (Shaz, regarding a comment from Lyla,) =20 I disagree. The Borg have accumulated knowledge from every species = they assimilate and seek to make one species that exist. They = might not be evil, but there actions definately are, and how do you separate the two? Same with the Oankali, their coerciveness is = not an innocent trait of the way they are,=20 =20 Yes it is. They are an amalgam of all the genes of all the species = they have come in contact with, and "gene trader" is the meaning of = their name. They (believe) they cannot exist unless they genetically = alter the species they contact, and alter themselves in the process. =20 =20 there is no innocence of actions as it is informed by their desire to trade genes without proper = consideration of, for example, the surviving humans and their input into the way the = trade progresses. =20 =20 OK, this part I completely agree with. There is no innocence of = action in the Oankali behavior. They are an intelligent species, albeit = one with an overwhelming compulsion to do what they do. They know it is = hateful to most humans, but that doesn't mean that they can avoid doing = it. Because the Oankali are intelligent, they certainly don't have the = same kind of innocence that a wolf, for instance, does when it hunts = down an elk to help feed the pack. Wolves are pretty smart, but there's = no evidence that they have a moral sense (or that, if they did, they = would stop hunting elk). The Oankali do--it just isn't OUR moral sense. = =20 =20 I love this discussion--it's helping me finish my dang thesis. Sheryl ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEBD62.CAFA5280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----

One of = the problems=20 that the oankali state that affected earth that i can
dig up from = my hazy=20 memory is the hierarchichal nature of the human species,
but it = would=20 suggest to me that the trade on genetic material they impose
and = their=20 manipulitive ways are just as negative and removed from=20 collective
decision-making etc.  I would have to read it = again to=20 check.
 
Ah--here is a point that I believe was very, = very=20 important to the series.  The Oankali don't HAVE to think about = collective decision making because they can, in a sense, read other = people's=20 minds.  They have organs which can "read" another = being's=20 motives and thoughts at the molecular level.  I think Butler = might be=20 hinting that the only way two discrete beings CAN truly communicate = would be=20 to have that level of awareness.  The Oankali have often been = misread,=20 and the misreading usually seems to stem from a desire to read them = as a=20 metaphor for human behavior.  Instead, I think it makes sense = to see=20 them a sort of control group in Butler's mental experiments. =20 "What if," she might have been thinking, "there was = an entity=20 which was neither male nor female but had experience with males and = females,=20 was intelligent but not at all human, was aware of human history but = not at=20 all bound by it, and was able to communicate with absolute clarity = but was=20 not a 'hive' culture?"  Viola, the Oankali.  They act = as a=20 foil for human behavior and motives, rather than as a metaphor for = us. =20
 
(Shaz, regarding a comment from=20 Lyla,)

I disagree.  The Borg have accumulated knowledge from = every=20 species they
assimilate and seek to make one species that = exist. =20 <snip> They might not be evil, but there actions definately = are, and=20 how do
you separate the two?  Same with the Oankali, their=20 coerciveness is not an
innocent trait of the way they are,
 
Yes it is.  They are an = amalgam of all=20 the genes of all the species they have come in contact with, and = "gene=20 trader" is the meaning of their name.  They (believe) they = cannot=20 exist unless they genetically alter the species they contact, and = alter=20 themselves in the process. 
 
there is no innocence of actions as it
is informed by their = desire=20 to trade genes without proper consideration of,
for example, the=20 surviving humans and their input into the way the=20 trade
progresses.
 
OK, this part I completely agree = with. =20 There is no innocence of action in the Oankali behavior.  They = are an=20 intelligent species, albeit one with an overwhelming compulsion to = do what=20 they do. They know it is hateful to most humans, but that doesn't = mean that=20 they can avoid doing it.  Because the Oankali are intelligent, = they=20 certainly don't have the same kind of innocence that a wolf, for = instance,=20 does when it hunts down an elk to help feed the pack.  Wolves = are=20 pretty smart, but there's no evidence that they have a moral sense = (or that,=20 if they did, they would stop hunting elk).  The Oankali do--it = just=20 isn't OUR moral sense. 
 
I love this discussion--it's = helping me=20 finish my dang thesis.
Sheryl
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEBD62.CAFA5280-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 01:49:25 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: discussions on the FEM-SF list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For anyone not on the original FEM-SF list, while currentlythere are many more off-topic posts of the "she said/she can't say that" variety than one might care for, there are also two threads of possible interest: Joanna Russ' WHAT ARE WE FIGHTING FOR and C.J. Cherryh's works. Maryelizabeth -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 858.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:34:43 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Xenogenesis Comments: To: Lyla Miklos In-Reply-To: <000b01bebcee$545be720$1ff4a1d1@lmiklos01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 22 Jun 1999, Lyla Miklos wrote: (snip) > I find this reaction to Butler's Trilogy intriquing. > I didn't have any negative feelings toward the Oankali at all, except in one > scene. > I saw them as the rubber dingy in the middle of the ocean. > My attitude was if they want to throw us a bone, we might as well take it. Part of my reaction is the horror at the idea of having absolutely no choices. If I recall correctly, even suicide wasn't an option. How horrible to be trapped in a coercive relationship and not have any way of getting out. The Oankali were rapists and to make matters worse, they "threw a bone" to their victims and made them feel intense pleasure. Yuck! > As far as I could tell all the humans on Earth were either dead or dying > along with all the vegatation and wildlife on the planet. > Did this species have any business being there? > I don't know. > Maybe they felt they could do no worse than we had already done to > ourselves. There are ways of doing things. Someone else mentioned that the Oankali could understand humans on every level. That understanding didn't compel the Oankali to treat the humans with compassion or in a way that was less terrifying. They had a desire to exchange genetic material and they wanted to do it -now- and they had the power to fulfill their need without the human's consent or compliance. So what if the humans might otherwise have died? If that is truly the destiny of humanity to die (and I am not saying it is but that seems to be part of the plot), shouldn't we be allowed to do that? And if a few humans choose to combine with the Oankali, then that is okay also. Why should the Oankali's genetic imperative be more important than humanities? (snip) > Although I was surprised to see humans reacting with so much fear towards > them. > If an alian approached me in as non-threatening a way as the Oankali did I > don't know if I would have been as paralysed with fear as so many of the > characters in the novels appeared. I didn't find the Oankali non-threatening. I found them to be very frightening. Have you ever been bullied by someone who threatened to hit you but never did? You know the bully is capable of making your life very miserable if you don't comply with hir wishes. S/he doesn't really need to hit you at all. If you don't want to suffer, you hand over your lunch money and turn over your class notes so you don't end up with a bloody nose. How awful to live every single day of your life like this way without a parent or teacher to turn to, without any option but to comply. (snip) > Lyla Miklos > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:10:26 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Frances Subject: Re: Xenogenesis > How > horrible to be trapped in a coercive relationship One of the aspects of Butler's work I find most interesting is her exploration of people caught in such relationships, and the pragmatic adjustments they make to survive. Frances ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:25:35 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG nomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT There's such a remarkable lack of nominations that I just checked whether it's the wrong week. It's not. I give it another try and nominate Notkin, Debbie and The Secret Feminist Cabal (Eds.): Flying Cups and Saucers: Gender Explorations in Science Fiction and Fantasy. 1998. Edgewood 1st ed, $18.00. I discuss availability at the end of this email. This is an anthology of 13 shorter pieces (mostly short stories) that won or were short-listed for the James Tiptree Jr. Award. Tiptree website ( http://www.tiptree.org/book/index.html ) about the anthology: "The James Tiptree, Jr. Award has been recognizing science fiction and fantasy novels and stories that explore and expand gender for the past six years. Although the award itself is given to one or two works of fiction a year, each jury also produces a "short list" of notable works that were considered for the award. This first anthology contains almost all of the short fiction that has either won or been short-listed in the first five years of the award." Read reviews of the anthology by Nalo Hopkinson in Science Fiction Weekly ( http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue90/books.html#fc ) and by Don Webb in TangentOnline ( http://www.sfsite.com/tangent/books/fly.htm ). I have the anthology by now and read half of the stories and IMO it's really worth it. There are so very different authors writing from different viewpoints represented in it that it gives a nice indication of the 'present state' of feminist science fiction. There's a lot to talk about. According to the BDG rule a selection of the stories included in the anthology should be included in the nomination. 13 stories are a bit much to discuss. I think 8 stories is a good number to discuss and I propose the following: 1. Eleanor Arnason, "The Lovers," 2. James Patrick Kelly, "Chemistry," 3. Carol Emshwiller, "Venus Rising," 4. L. Timmel Duchamp, "Motherhood, Etc.," 5. R. Garcia y Robertson, "The Other Magpie," 6. Ian McLeod, "Grownups" 7. Delia Sherman, "Young Woman in a Garden," 8. Ursula K. Le Guin, "The Matter of Seggri," The remaining stories are - Kelley Eskridge, "And Salome Danced," - Ursula K. Le Guin, "Forgiveness Day," - Ian McDonald, "Some Strange Desire," - Graham Joyce and Peter F. Hamilton, "Eat Reecebread," - Lisa Tuttle, "Food Man," However, this selection would not be binding. All the other stories can be discussed as well and this selection can also be discussed. Availability: - Amazon offers only the hardcopy of this anthology (for 45$, shipping time 4-6 weeks). - However, it can be ordered from the Tiptree website ( http://www.tiptree.org/book/index.html#order , $18 + 2.50 handling) or through - bookstores. - This is not an option for non-US residents. In the past Donna Simone has offered to provide copies for oversea list members and I think she still does (Donna, this is the moment to protest). - I ordered my copy from Mark V. Ziesing, an online bookstore ( http://bigchair.com/ziesing/ ). They charged $4 for oversea shipping to Germany (surface mail). I had the book after 4 weeks. They were very friendly and it was much more personal than ordering via Amazon. Any takers? Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:31:43 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: BDG nomination: Mayerhofer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sufferers of my previous posts know how much I love short fiction. I second. -----Original Message----- From: Petra Mayerhofer [mailto:mayerhof@USF.UNI-KASSEL.DE] Sent: Friday, June 25, 1999 1:26 PM To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU-LIT*] BDG nomination There's such a remarkable lack of nominations that I just checked whether it's the wrong week. It's not. I give it another try and nominate Notkin, Debbie and The Secret Feminist Cabal (Eds.): Flying Cups and Saucers: Gender Explorations in Science Fiction and Fantasy. 1998. Edgewood 1st ed, $18.00. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:07:09 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: book nomination Ring of Swords Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I sent an announcement a few days ago saying the nomination process would start on Wednesday, and then got too busy to kick it off with a nomination myself. So here's my nomination, same as last time. Note the change of process -- this time we're limiting it to one nomination per person to see how that works. Here's mine: Ring of Swords, by Eleanor Arnason $14.95 Paperback - 382 pages (January 1995) Tor Books; ISBN: 0312890168 Russell Letson, Locus micro review, lifted from amazon: For half a century, Earth has been on the brink of total war with an implacable alien race. Biologist Anna Perez is the first to discover the truth--the hwarhath have segregated their society strictly along gender lines, to prevent the warlike males from harming women and children. In their eyes, humans are a dishonorable and barbaric race who may require extermination.... a remarkably suspenseful book.... I plan to devour [Arnason's next book] with the same delight and intellectual relish that I found in this one. Why I'm nominating this one: it's a swell book. The gender stuff is key but integral to the story. Well written, as are all but her earliest book. I figure we're probably due for a sequel to this or another book from Arnason soon, but it's not necessary in order to enjoy this one. There's adventure, cultural intrigue, first contact, strong female characters, you name it. Her earlier book (out of print, arrrgh) tied for a Tiptree award. Read this even if we don't select it. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:43:58 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: donna simone Subject: Re: Book nomination Calcutta Chromosome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My nomination. An award winning title, Arthur C. Clarke award, from an Asian author. Something everyone thinks doesn't exist - SFF authors from other cultures then america. Dont know if it is feminist, but I am willing to read it and find out for the benefit of reading a book by a writer not within the anglo-american SFF arena. The Calcutta Chromosome : A Novel of Fevers, Delirium & Discovery by Amitav Ghosh List Price: $6.99 Mass Market Paperback - 306 pages (July 1998) Bard; ISBN: 0380794934 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.89 x 6.91 x 4.18 Science Fiction and Fantasy Editor's Recommended Book The Calcutta Chromosome is one of those books that's marketed as a mainstream thriller even though it is an excellent science fiction novel (It won the prestigious Arthur C. Clarke Award). The main character is a man named Antar, whose job is to monitor a somewhat finicky computer that sorts through mountains of information. When the computer finds something it can't catalog, it brings the item to Antar's attention. A string of these seemingly random anomalies puts Antar on the trail of a man named Murugan, who disappeared in Calcutta in 1995 while searching for the truth behind the discovery of the cure for malaria. This search for Murugan leads, in turn, to the discovery of the Calcutta Chromosome, which can shift bits of personality from one person to another. That's when things really get interesting. --This text refers to the hardcover edition of this title donna ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:16:48 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: BDG Nomination: The Slave and the Free MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am nominating Suzy McKee Charnas's *The Slave and the Free* (Tor Books; ISBN: 0312869126, $16.95 paperback - 448 pages). This volume is a reprint of the first two novels of Charnas's Holdfast series, *Walk to the End of the World* and *Motherlines*. Together, these two novels were awarded one of the three Retroactive Tiptree Awards in 1996 (details available at http://www.tiptree.org/retro/index.html) and at last they are back in print. These books amazed me when I first read them five years ago. Charnas writes in a spare, calm style that sets off the strangeness of the plot and setting to great effect. All of the Holdfast books (the series is now complete after four volumes) take place in an indeterminately distant future after the world ecosystem has collapsed and nearly all humans have died, along with most large species of animals. The residents of the Holdfast are descendants of the lucky few who were able to hide out underground in secret government shelters and who emerged after "the Wasting" to found a new society. They think they know what caused the collapse of civilization: the influence of women. Now known as 'fems', women are drudges and breeders and are beaten or killed for the flimsiest of reasons or no reason at all. The first book recounts the journey of three men and a fem to find the father of one of the men. The plot twists are completely unpredictable and harrowing. It left me shaken, but giddy with all that the author had attempted and succeeded at. The second book follows the fem out into the wilderness beyond the Holdfast, where she discovers an undreamt of society of women who breed horses and reproduce without need of men. She also discovers a group of escaped fems like herself. And all is not sweetness and light. These are wonderful books that address power relationships with a psychological realism and depth of thought that I haven't often seen. And they are founding texts of feminist sf. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Julia Darling -- Figure 8 "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:52:18 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kathleen Friello Subject: BDG nomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kit Reed, Weird Women, Wired Women (Wesleyan Univ Press, 1998, $15.95 paperback; ISBN: 0819522554) In her introduction, Connie Willis says Reed scares the spit out of her. I read The Wait in Jr Hi and had nightmares for decades. Willis also says, "What you think the story is about at first is almost invariably wrong. ...Kit Reed's true genius lies in her ablility to see straight through to the center of things. It's this clear-eyed ability to get below the surface and down to the reality--more than her flair for detail and dialogue, her quirky insights, her fantastical stage settings-- that makes Kit Reed stories unique. She sees stright through to the truth. And understands just how complicated that truth is." 20 short works, a treasure to keep but too much to take entire in just a month. Suggest a selected few from the collection: The Wait; Cynosure; Songs of War; The Food Farm; Winter; The Bride of Bigfoot; Pilots of the Purple Twilight; The Mothers of Shark Island; any other suggestions? Comments from the "short list" for the 1998 Tiptree (to be taken with a dose of salts) http://www.tiptree.org/1998/short.html Science Fiction Weekly review by John Clute, Leaving a Taste in the Mind http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue71/excess.html page of blurbs http://www.dartmouth.edu/acad-inst/upne/s98_weiwom.html review by Simon Ings for Infinity Plus http://www.iplus.zetnet.co.uk/nonfiction/wwww.htm AND, from the same site, a story that appears in the collection, "The New You" http://www.iplus.zetnet.co.uk/stories/newyou.htm (not, by any means, the best in the book, but it has a great vintage feel to it) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 03:17:57 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: digest Kathy Robertson Subject: Re: BDG Nomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to nominate: The Terrorists of Irustan, by Louise Marley (Ace, 1999 - ISBN 0-441-00619-1, $13.95 trade paperback) Description from back of book: On the planet of Irustan, one woman is fighting back... Zahra IbSaba is a talented medicant, and sees much of the joy in the lives of the women she heals--and much of the pain. She sees a wife brutally beaten, a prostitute suffering at the hands of her employers, and her best friend Kalen, a mother who is struggling to save her daughter from a cruel betrothal. Kalen begs Zahra for help, and although it goes against her medicant vows, Zahra reluctantly agrees. But this silent act of terrorism will have far-reaching consequences--for herself and for all the woman of her planet. Booklist review: On Irustan, a planet settled long ago by humans, the Book of the Second Prophet painstakingly details the proper way of being. Despite space travel and advanced technologies, men are the absolute decision makers. Women, draped in shapeless silks, their faces heavily veiled, are chattel. Only a select few get a glimpse at independence by becoming medicants, who are trained in the medical sciences. Such work is regarded as too distasteful for men. The beautiful Zahra is a young wife, a talented medicant, and a murderer. Sickened by a world of abusive husbands, Zahra's choice to kill is believably righteous, but is fraught with treacherous subsequent ramifications. Marley realizes Irustan in dynamic detail, and she manages real, consistent character development so that not only does Zahra mature, but secondary characters subtly grow as situations demand. Throughout, Marley's acclaimed, exquisite prose and her universal themes of feminist heroism light the book brightly. (Karen Simonetti, Copyright 1999, American Library Assn.) Kathy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:53:43 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: book nomination Ring of Swords In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.19990624182207.00dfab50@mail.actioneer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 25 Jun 1999, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > I sent an announcement a few days ago saying the nomination process would > start on Wednesday, and then got too busy to kick it off with a nomination > myself. So here's my nomination, same as last time. Note the change of > process -- this time we're limiting it to one nomination per person to see > how that works. Here's mine: > > Ring of Swords, by Eleanor Arnason > $14.95 Paperback - 382 pages (January 1995) > Tor Books; ISBN: 0312890168 > > > I figure we're probably due for a sequel to this or another book from > Arnason soon, but it's not necessary in order to enjoy this one. There's > adventure, cultural intrigue, first contact, strong female characters, you > name it. Her earlier book (out of print, arrrgh) tied for a Tiptree award. > Read this even if we don't select it. > I've mentioned this before, but it's worth repeating. Ring of Swords didn't sell very well, due largely, I think, to poor marketing and a lousy cover, so Tor decided not to buy the next book in the series. That novel, called Hearth World, is all written (has been for several years) and sitting in a drawer in Eleanor's apartment. No one else has been willing to buy it to date because publishers are leery of purchasing part of a series when another publisher owners the first part. The good news is that Eleanor is currently negotiating both the return of the rights to Ring of Swords with Tor and the publication of both volumes one and two of the trilogy with a small press, forget the name, which specializes in gay and lesbian SF. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 21:11:02 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Nominations: Additional Information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For those who are interested some (additional) online links for 2 of the nominated books: A review of _The Terrorists of Irustan_ on Science Fiction Weekly by A.M. Dellamonica: http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue108/books.html And furthermore for those who have the needed software installed (unfortunately I haven't) : You can listen to Kit Reed reading her _The Bride of Bigfoot_ (which is part of _Weird Women, Wired Women_) at SCIFI ( http://www.scifi.com/set/readings/reed/ ). Furthermore you can read the Weird Women-story _The New You_ at Internet+ ( http://www.iplus.zetnet.co.uk/stories/newyou.htm ). Have a nice weekend. Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 16:09:18 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: BDG Nominations Page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To make the nomination and voting process easier, a new nominations page has been created on the BDG website at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/bdg_nom_0699.htm This page will be updated daily during the rest of the nomination period, so check there if you want to see a comprehensive list of the nominated books and read the comments about them. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: The *Velvet Goldmine* Soundtrack "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 23:26:48 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kathleen Friello Subject: Re: BDG Nominations: Additional Information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/26/99 3:11:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mayerhof@USF.UNI-KASSEL.DE writes: << Furthermore you can read the Weird Women-story _The New You_ at Internet+ ( http://www.iplus.zetnet.co.uk/stories/newyou.htm ). >> This information was included in my nomination ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:41:55 -0400 Reply-To: skelican@erols.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Susan Kelican Subject: BDG Nomination: The Slave and the Free MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am nominating C.J. Cherryh's *Cyteen* (Warner Books; ISBN: 0446671274, $14.99 trade paperback). This volume is a reprint of Cherryh's 1988 novel reuniting the 3 parts originally split up for paperback publication as *Cyteen: The Betrayal,* *Cyteen: The Rebirth* and *Cyteen: The Vindication.* It's been nominated by someone else before, but competition was fierce in the first round. Seems like it'd be worthwhile to raise the flag again. It's a classic - winning the 1989 Hugo Award for Best Novel. It's not easy to synopsize the plot. A young girl growing into adolescence and assuming the reins of political power as she discovers she is the clone of the former leader of her world. To quote from a recent Amazon.com review: "This is the "young/exploited genius" book you should give your kids, especially your daughters, when they go to college or maybe earlier if they're mature. Second Ari is raised, & genetically bred, to be a dictator. Yet she turns out to be both that & not-that. Unlike Ender's the emotions seemed real instead of stylized to "grip" us. So it isn't as memorable, but ultimately it's better. Also inspiring is that it goes against this genetic determinism & blank slatism going on today. Genetics does give you potentials & "rules", but who says you can't play by the rules & do great things?" I've loved this book since I first read it. I'd appreciate the opportunity to be able to discuss Ari's struggles with other members of the list. -Susan Kelican ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 20:38:59 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Nominations I nominate: The Mistress of Spices by Chitra Banerjee Divakaruni List Price: $12.95 Paperback - 338 pages 1 Anchor edition (March 1998) Doubleday; ISBN: 0385482388 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.84 x 7.97 x 5.25 Reviews Amazon.com In the world created by first-time novelist Chitra Banerjee Divakaruni, there is a spice to cure every human ailment, and her heroine, Tilo, is in fact The Mistress of Spices. Tilo (short for Tilottama) comes by her curative powers in a magically roundabout way. Born in India, she ends up on a remote island courtesy of pirates and sea snakes. Here she encounters an ancient woman who instructs her in the power of spice. Her education complete, Tilo heads for Oakland, California, to practice her healing arts. She diagnoses the ills of the various people who come to her spice shop, and cures them, too, until one day she discovers that magic is a double-edged sword. In chapters named for spices, we follow Tilo's adventures from her birth to the moment she must decide whether to ply her special powers alone or share her life with another. Divakaruni has created a memorable heroine in The Mistress of Spices Women's Studies Editor's Recommended Book On a mythic island of women "where on our skin, the warm rain fell like pomegranate seeds" powerful spices like cinnamon, turmeric, and fenugreek whisper their secrets to young acolytes. Ordained after trial by fire, each new spice mistress is sent to a far-off land to cure the life pains of all Indian seekers, while keeping a cool distance from the mortals. Only stubborn, passionate Tilo, disguised as an old woman merchant in present-day Oakland, California, fails to heed the vengeful spices' warnings. Fragrant with spice and sensuality, this winning tale rolls off the tongue. Written in the soaring, poetic tradition of China Men and Haroun and the Sea of Stories. Even after all the discussion of the benefits of independent bookstores, it sure is convenient to use amazon.com for book reviews. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:25:03 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: BDG nomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'd like to nominate Katie Waitman's THE DIVIDED. Del Rey 1999, $12.95 US. >From the *MG* web site: > THE DIVIDED by Katie Waitman > > Waitman explores one of the eternal questions in this absorbing new work of science fiction: what is life without balance? Dark without light? Good without opposition? And what are the consequences if someone works to eliminate the division? Sekmé, a warrior woman, finds herself thrust into the center of this controversy. No matter the outcome, the end will result in the destruction of life as the people of her land know it. By the author of THW MERRO TREE. Del Rey trade paperback, $12.95. > --MeH Maryelizabeth -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 858.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:41:58 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Laurel A. Lamme" Subject: BDG nomination The Wood Wife Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would like to nominate _The Wood Wife_ by Terri Windling Tor Books, copyright 1996, ISBN 0812549295, paperback $6.99. World Fantasy Award winner. Two reviews from amazon.com: Kirkus Reviews: Distinctive contemporary fantasy set in the Arizona desert, from the well-known editor (the annual Year's Best Fantasy and Horror, with Ellen Datlow, etc.) When the prizewinning, gin-sozzled English poet Davis Cooper died in a dry gully (of drowning!) near his home east of Tucson, he left his house, papers, and real estate to budding poet Maggie Black, with whom he had corresponded but had never met. Separating from her talented but demanding musician husband Nigel, Maggie takes up residence in Cooper's old house, discovering fragments of unpublished poems, together with a gallery of extraordinary paintings left by Cooper's lover, Anna Naverra - paintings that Maggie finds both provocative and disturbing. The locals, too, seem to hint of another unseen world behind the real one, a world of magic and metamophosis that Maggie can almost perceive, whose landscape is defined by mysterious, powerful mages operating by rules that she finds herself gradually able to comprehend. To understand Cooper, Navarra, and the unseen world, Maggie must delve deep inside her own being, where, ultimately, she will find the key to her own poetry - as well as the means to transcend space and time, to actually meet Cooper and unravel the mystery of his bizarre death. A splendid desert enchantment that flows with its own eerie logic - arresting, evocative, and well worked out despite the entirely superfluous last couple of chapters. Folk Tales On-Line Magazine: Books are letters from the author to the readers. In the case of Terri Windling's _The Wood Wife_, the letter is a love letter, a breathtaking yet gentle missive of affection for many things: the art of English illustrator Brian Froud; the Sonoran desert of Arizona; faery beliefs and Native American myths; and the odd enigmatic culture of the city of Tucson. Windling's passion for ther setting and subject shine through like the clear golden sunlight of the desert, and somewhere along the way, she tells a fine, fine story as well, full of twists and turns and filigreed with love. Tor Books says they have a sample chapter at www.tor.com. There are several other reviews at amazon.com, as well as one at www.mythsoc.org/twwrev.html. Laurel