From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Fri Sep 10 19:37:56 1999 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:49:57 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG9907A" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:11:32 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Anitra Freeman Subject: Re: Intro: Anitra In-Reply-To: <960327ec.24ac1b71@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, B. Garrahy wrote: > Anitra! What a small world this is! I have been lurking around here (and > this list's precursor) for quite some time now. It is nice to see a familiar > face! You will love it here. I do. :-) > > Bridgett Yes it is a small world indeed! Hello again, Bridgett! / Anitra L. Freeman / "Never doubt that a small group of imperfect people can improve the world--indeed they are the only ones who ever have." Not Margaret Mead ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:49:20 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Anitra Freeman Subject: Re: Intro: Anitra In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990630222740.007252ac@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > The BDG web page that is available on the FSFFU site is out of date and > broken, as you saw. The real page, complete with all archives, is now at > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ Thank you! I've got it bookmarked now ... and it looks like I'm all set for the next couple of discussions. I'm not at all sure i'll be able to get hold of a copy of Slow River anytime soon, but I just recently read To Say Nothing of the Dog, by Connie Willis, and still have my copy out in plain sight. I have read Wild Seed (and as far as i know, everything else by Octavia Butler) and I'm looking for ward to that discussion too. Wrote On! / Anitra L. Freeman / "Never doubt that a small group of imperfect people can improve the world--indeed they are the only ones who ever have." Not Margaret Mead ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:09:33 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dawn Rosendahl Subject: (no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am taking my cue from Anitra. I am also a new member and this is my first list. To introduce myself, my name is Dawn Rosendahl. I live in Orlando, FL and I am an Artist/Writer. I am looking forward to being a part of this group. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 10:23:56 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage Subject: Re: Intro: Anitra MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004E_01BEC3AB.D32517C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01BEC3AB.D32517C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AND, of course, the first book of the Xenogenesis trilogy by Octavia = Butler. The set-up and awakening of the humans in that book distinctly = follows the biblical pattern. And, of course, the name of the main = character, Lilith, is no accident: I think it's clear that Butler means = the book to be an alternate telling of the Genesis story, but with a = woman in Adam's traditional role. Lilith is "created" first, and her = offspring come from the times when the Oankali have put her to sleep and = taken her genetic material--very much like God putting Adam to sleep and = thus making Eve (and of course, further on, you get a character named = Paul Titus, who is an immature man and an attempted rapist. Look up = Paul's letter to Titus in the Bible if you want a good laugh.) =20 =20 One delicious parody (alternative?) is Raven's creation story from = the Western Cravasses in Samuel R. Delany's Tales of Neveryon. Delany = is a "card-carrying" feminist.=20 "Delicious" is exactly the right word. I have read Raven's creation = myth aloud to more people than I can count. They are alternately = shocked and amused, but they all, on some level, just love it. Maybe = someone should nominate _Tales_ for the BDG.... Sheryl Anitra Freeman wrote:=20 I have a research question I hope some of you may help me out = on.=20 Someone on another list asked for re-workings of the Genesis = story in=20 feminist sf. I know I've seen retellings of Genesis in sf=20 short-stories, but I recall author/title information. Does = anyone here=20 recall some?=20 ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01BEC3AB.D32517C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
AND, of=20 course, the first book of the Xenogenesis trilogy by Octavia = Butler. =20 The set-up and awakening of the humans in that book distinctly = follows the=20 biblical pattern.  And, of course, the name of the main = character,=20 Lilith, is no accident: I think it's clear that Butler means the = book to be=20 an alternate telling of the Genesis story, but with a woman in = Adam's=20 traditional role.  Lilith is "created" first, and her = offspring come from the times when the Oankali have put her to sleep = and=20 taken her genetic material--very much like God putting Adam to sleep = and=20 thus making Eve (and of course, further on, you get a character = named Paul=20 Titus, who is an immature man and an attempted rapist.  Look up = Paul's=20 letter to Titus in the Bible if you want a good laugh.)  =
 
One delicious = parody=20 (alternative?) is Raven's creation story from the Western Cravasses = in=20 Samuel R. Delany's Tales of Neveryon.  Delany is a=20 "card-carrying" feminist.=20

"Delicious" is exactly = the right=20 word.  I have read Raven's creation myth aloud to more people = than I=20 can count.  They are alternately shocked and amused, but they = all, on=20 some level, just love it.  Maybe someone should nominate = _Tales_ for=20 the BDG....

Sheryl

Anitra Freeman wrote:

I have a research question I hope some of = you=20 may help me out on.
Someone on another list asked for = re-workings of=20 the Genesis story in
feminist sf.  I know I've seen = retellings=20 of Genesis in sf
short-stories, but I recall author/title=20 information.  Does anyone here
recall some?=20
------=_NextPart_000_004E_01BEC3AB.D32517C0-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:01:59 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Terri Subject: Re: BDG voting begins In-Reply-To: <19990630161023277.AAB239.269@jennifer.actioneer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Everyone! Just to let eveyone know, you are allowed FOUR votes. Also, if you don't recieve a reply from me within a reasonable length of time, say 24-36 hours, please resend your votes. They may have gotten cyberlost . Terri >It's time to cast your votes for the books we will discuss from September >through December. > >Take a look at the nominations on: >http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/bdg_nom_0699.htm > >Cast your ballot by sending your four favorites in an e-mail to Terri at >terriergraphics@cybertours.com before the end of the day next Tuesday July >6. Please send them to Terri rather than to the whole list! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:27:09 +0200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: =?iso-8859-1?q?pascicutte=20De=20Pascicutte?= Subject: the myth of genesis nd feminist rewritings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi all, I'm a new subscriber and I'd like to ask a question to anyone of you who can answer. I'm going to write my long essay for my degree and it will deal about the re-making of the myth of genesis (with particular emphasis to the myths of Eve and Lilith) in science fiction feminist literature and cyberfeminist literature. Up to now I have tracket such a theme in the xenogenesis series by Octavia Butler but I was wondering if there were other feminist authors dealing with this theme (even just in the form of a suggestion) in sf books. Can anyone help me? Sorry if my question is, maybe, irrelevant to the current topic of the list. Thanks in advance Restituta ______________________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:34:48 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: the myth of genesis nd feminist rewritings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re. genesis rewrites, though it is not strictly SF, there is one in Alice Walker's _Temple of my Familiar_. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:14:36 GMT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: CFP: Science Fiction/Fantasty Area (9-11-99; PCA 4-19-22, 2000) Comments: To: cfp@english.upenn.edu, iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu, owner-melus-l@listserver.TAMU-Commerce.edu, h-pcaaca@h-net.msu.edu, sfuf@csd.uwm.edu, SFRA-L@ebbs.english.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Apologies for any multiple postings. Please feel free to copy/distribute to anyone/anylist you believe would be interested! _________________________________ SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY Popular Culture Association Call for Papers for the 2000 National Convention of the Popular Culture Association (PCA) & American Culture Association (ACA) April 19-22, 2000 New Orleans, LA, at the Marriott Hotel The Science Fiction and Fantasy (SF/F) Area of PCA solicits papers, paper proposals, and panel proposals from scholars interested in any aspect of SF/F. Any disciplinary method or approach is welcome! Proposals on film, television, and written works are solicited. NEW THIS YEAR: GRADUATE STUDENT AWARD (MORE INFORMATION BELOW) Topics may include (but are not limited to): Any Author Computer Games & Role Playing Old Masters/New Writers of SF/F Any SF/F Film Earth: Final Conflict Philosophy and SF/F Any SF/F TV Farscape Postcolonial SF/F Aesthetics Female SF/F Authors Propaganda in SF/F Aliens in SF/F Feminism Psychoanalysis and SF/F Alternate Histories Heinlein, Robert A. Russ, Joanna Angels Hercules: The Legendary Journeys Space: 1999 Asimov, Isaac Horror and/vs. SF/F Spielberg's Influence on SF/F Apocalyptic Concerns Humor Stargate and Stargate: SG1 Babylon 5 Invented Religions Star Trek (TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY) Bradbury, Ray LeGuin, Ursula Star Wars and/or George Lucas British SF TV Lewis, C. S. Syndication vs. Network SF/F Butler, Octavia Marxism in SF/F Teaching SF/F Children's Fantasy Medievalism and SF/F 2001: A Space Odyssey (&Sequels) Chris Carter & The X-Files Millennium Urban Fantasy Literature Class and Social Constructs Multi-Culturalism in SF/F Utopias/Dystopias Crusade (B5 Spin-off) New Heroes & Heroines in SF/F Xena: Warrior Princess PAPER PROPOSAL: For a paper proposal, send a 250-word abstract OR a finished paper (MAXIMUM 15 minutes reading time) with a 50-word abstract. Please include a separate cover sheet with your name, mailing address, phone number, email address, and the presentation title. (Receipt of proposal will be confirmed by email.) PANEL PROPOSAL: For a panel proposal, send four 250-word abstracts OR finished papers with 50-word abstracts and a panel name. Please include a separate cover sheet with the name, mailing address, and phone number of each panel member, the panel title, and an indication of the panel chair (who may be one of the presenters). (Receipt of proposal will be confirmed by email.) PLEASE NOTE: ONE SUBMISSION PER CONFERENCE: A submission to one area of PCA or ACA precludes submissions to any other areas of the same conference. MAIL SUBMISSIONS TO: Barbara Silliman E-mail: P. O. Box 19722 Johnston, RI 02919-0722 Phone & FAX: (401) 231-2679 PLEASE FOLLOW UP E-MAIL SUBMISSIONS WITH HARD COPY A.S.A.P. DEADLINE FOR ALL SUBMISSIONS: SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 11, 1999 2000 GRADUATE STUDENT AWARD: This year, to celebrate the record of quality of graduate student presentations, we are instituting a new chapter in the history of SF/F at PCA. Monetary awards will be given for the best three papers submitted by graduate students at the 2000 PCA/ACA Conference. The 2000 Graduate Student Award begins a yearly tradition to support the scholastic investigation of graduate students in the area of Science Fiction and Fantasy. Graduate students who wish to submit a completed presentation paper for consideration should follow these procedures: Use MLA documentation format for in-text citations and Works Cited page. Double-space the paper with one inch margins on all four sides using a font in 12 point size. No more than 12-15 pages in length (exclusive of cover sheet and Works Cited page). Attach one clean sheet of paper at the end of your paper to be used by Award Committee members for notes and comments. Submit your paper with no identifying information on any of its pages, except the title. Submit four copies of your paper to the address, above, with a cover sheet containing the paper's title, your name, address, phone number, and e-mail address. Mark envelope: 2000 AWARD. DEADLINE FOR ALL SUBMISSIONS: Monday, January 10, 2000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 14:26:28 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG voting last chance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For the procrastinators among us, this is your last call to send your votes for the Sept-December BDG books. Everything you need to know is below. Send your votes by e-mail by today if you are interested. > >Hi Everyone! > >Just to let eveyone know, you are allowed FOUR votes. >Also, if you don't recieve a reply from me within a reasonable >length of time, say 24-36 hours, please resend your votes. >They may have gotten cyberlost . > >Terri > > > >>It's time to cast your votes for the books we will discuss from September >>through December. >> >>Take a look at the nominations on: >>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/bdg_nom_0699.htm >> >>Cast your ballot by sending your four favorites in an e-mail to Terri at >>terriergraphics@cybertours.com before the end of the day next Tuesday July >>6. Please send them to Terri rather than to the whole list! > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 23:12:03 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: BDG voting last chance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>It's time to cast your votes for the books we will discuss from September >>>through December. >>> >>>Take a look at the nominations on: >>>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/bdg_nom_0699.htm >>> >>>Cast your ballot by sending your four favorites in an e-mail to Terri at >>>terriergraphics@cybertours.com before the end of the day next Tuesday July >>>6. Please send them to Terri rather than to the whole list! What a superb, exciting list! However the votes come out, I'm off to get my hot little hands on *all* of these titles that I can (that I haven't al- ready read), to help replenish my own well of creativity and literary delight. Thanks, all. SMCharnas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:30:13 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG To Say Nothing of the Dog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT I don't know whether there is some internet breakdown or not. So far I have not received any message on _To Say Nothing of the Dog_ (TSNotD) from the list. So perhaps this is the starting message for this discussion, if not please be patient with me. I enjoyed TSNotD but was not thrilled. I was more irritated than amused by the first chapters (for that one should know that I am no fan of screwball comedy). It got better after Ned arrived in 1888 and was on the river. Before I read the book I had never heard of _Three men on a boat_ and probably I missed half of the jokes in the first half of the book. But I was an avid Dorothy Sayers fan for a time so the references in the second half had more meaning for me. However, I don't think that is the reason I liked the second half better. Many characters appeared like caricatures to me, but perhaps that's simply a characteristic of such a comedy? I think of Lady Schrappnel (can anybody believe that somebody could be so overpowering?), Prof. Peddick (he's an over-used cliché IMO), the mother of the girl (name? help, I don't have the book here). Today I had once more a bit of free time (compared to the last weeks) and I used it to look for online references on the novel. Some reviewers praise the book for historical accuracy, others censure it for the lack of it. To me it appeared historical accurate but I have only a rough knowledge of the period (based on English literature of the 19th century). Any historians out there who can comment? What did list members think of the time travel concept? It seemed to be consistent but I have not really concentrated to keep abreast of the details. Last but not least, is it feminist? IMO it is not (this is not meant as censure but as a category, it is not anti-feminist either). What could be seen as feminist? There is the beautiful, conceited girl (name?), uneducated in all important matters, who gains self- knowledge. Not particularly original, I think, and proving a point made a long time ago (and not particularly relevant for present times IMO). There is Verity (that name I remember!), a beautiful, determined women, shown in a professional role. There are 1-2 instances in which the usual perception was overthrown because a woman was behind the male-perceived profession (very minor characters in the context of the novel). Can somebody add to this? Do you want to add Lady Schrappnel? What could be seen as less feminist? Mr. Dunworthy, Finch, Galsworthy, Ned, .... As they are given much more time than most of the female characters I think it leaves the impression of man as the norm in the professional life of future Oxford. The warden, ugly, and with an ugly personality (and Galsworthy could only be in love with her because of time-lag!). That Lady Schrapnell (IMO) and the mother of the girl are such caricatures. No, I don't think that a feminist novel is simply one in which there are more female than male characters, and in which there are only (or at least one) strong women characters. But it is a starting-point for an evaluation, not the end of the analysis. To go beyond simply counting males/females: I think how beauty/ugliness of women is presented in the novel is _not_ feminist. The nominator of TSNotD originally wrote: 'I'm also hoping to see some discussion of whether we can consider this book feminist, though it may be that this selection is too mainstream for the list's tastes.' I hope s/he is out there on the list and can comment. What do other list members think? At last, I come to the online references. TSNotD is certainly popular. There are a lot of reviews out there on the net. However, many reviews just give an outline of the plot and a concluding sentence (sometimes a paragraph) to say whether the book is in the reviewer's opinion good or not. In the following I tried to list the more reflective, meaningful reviews first. Science Fiction Weekly Review by John Clute ('Excessive Candour') (positive): http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue59/excess.html He says: 'The pretense of collegiate sloth that generates so much of the humor of Three Men is precisely that: a pretense. Jerome and his cohort were desperately hardworking hacks; the sloth of the three men in their boat is a dream. And when she [Connie Willis] sets her time-travellers from 2058 in that slothful, dreamlike, resented but longed-for 1888, Connie Willis asks a great deal of us. She asks us to dream along with her. The miracle is, we do. Time travel, after all, is a body English of nostalgia; [...] Willis's style, in truth, does not much resemble Jerome's, for he is a deceptively concise writer, and much of the pleasure of Three Men in a Boat lies in discovering how seeming digressions [...] whip back into the main driveshaft of story. To Say Nothing of the Dog much more closely resembles, in its mise-en-scene and characters and unsugary sweetness of nostalgia, a P.G. Wodehouse tale with the stays loosed.' SF Site review by Steven Silver (rather negative): http://sfsite.com/02b/dog27.htm He says: '[...] the main characters are, ostensibly, historians. However, none of the characters, [...] or Ned Henry and Verity Kindle from To Say Nothing of the Dog think like historians. Nor do they seem to know anything about history beyond what they learn after they leap into the past. The historical arguments Willis portrays in To Say Nothing of the Dog, most notably Peddick's debate with Overforce over whether history is the result of grand forces or individuals, is extremely watered down and none of Willis' twenty- first century historians involve themselves in the debate or even bring any advanced arguments to the topic when listening to the nineteenth-century Oxford dons argue. [...] I have read several stories by Connie Willis which I have enjoyed. However, these have all been short stories or novellas. At longer lengths, based on the three Willis novels I've read, I'm afraid I subscribe to the minority opinion that her work is vastly overrated.' I think it is of interest in this context that Steven Silver is one of the founders and judges for the Sidewise Award for Alternate History ( http://www.skatecity.com/ah/sidewise/ ). Review by Richard Horton (mixed): http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton/tosay.htm He says: 'Willis seems to be saying, if this is a screwball comedy, darn it, I can have implausible plot points, and outrageous coincidences, and my tone can be as goofy as I want. But a funny thing (so to speak) happened on the way to Coventry, and this novel turns out to have a serious and moving center to it after all, albeit in the context of a generally very funny book. What's more, Willis' point derives nicely from her story's outrageous coincidences, almost too overtly so, as if the book points at its faults and says "I meant it that way". Which brings me to my misgivings about a novel that I ended up liking quite a bit. The whole machinery of the plot is set in motion by some generally unbelievable actions. [describes how Ned ends up in 1988] All these machinations strain credibility, really even beyond the rather loose requirements of a screwball comedy. Moreover, the whole plot centers about the tendency of the structure of Time to resist alteration, which necessarily requires the reader to think about the mechanics of Willis' time travel setup. Unfortunately, in my opinion this setup doesn't really stand up well to being thought about too carefully. At least for the first few chapters, I was simultaneously entertained by the comic goings on, which are prime Connie Willis in her madcap mode, and irritated by the blatant plot manipulation. However, after a bit I calmed down and accepted the premise as given, and I quite enjoyed the story.' SF Site review by Margo MacDonald (shorter, positive): http://sfsite.com/04a/dog30.htm She says: 'Interwoven with humour, wit and unfailing romanticism, this book is a pure pleasure which leaves you feeling as relaxed and satisfied as a picnic on a green lawn by a rolling river on a warm summer's day... hmmm... and maybe just a touch time- lagged.' SF Site Review by Thomas Myer (very positive): http://sfsite.com/01a/2say48.htm He says:'Not only is Willis's title derived from Jerome's work, but her novel also concerns the humorous meanderings of three men in a boat on the Thames. Ned Henry (the time-traveling protagonist) both refers to and reenacts incidents from Jerome's novel. On a thematic level, the two novels are also very similar -- a character or group of characters in search of some leisure time find everything but. [...] The story, though heavily dependent on Jerome K. Jerome's novel, is brilliantly executed. Only Connie Willis could pull off such a derivative work and make it hum. Her use of humor is spot on. The scenes in which Ned Henry suffers from time-lag are side-splitting; you can't help but laugh at someone else's afflictions. This novel is a primary shining example of what SF ought to be: spry, enjoyable, meaningful, and with tongue planted firmly in cheek.' Mervius's Book Reviews (positive): http://www.mervius.com/books/To%20Say%20Nothing%20of%20th e%20Dog.htm S/he says: 'What I find most marvelous about this book is its balance of mystery, time travel, and romantic setting. [...] Due to the setting, there is a sort of lazy efficientness to the way the story unfolds. It's all very tight, and with so many details (i.e. clues) along the way, it has to be. I found a few times, as in the first chapter, that the author seemed to be including too many details in boring things (e.g. looking through air raid rubble). I'm not convinced that that's not the case, but the reader does come to understand that there are clues everywhere, and that you can't possibly tie 'em all together until the author feels like revealing her secrets. To Say Nothing of the Dog is one of those novels that you'd just love to crawl inside. At the same time, the setting always serves the story -- it's not just there as background. And it lends itself to plenty of humor, some of it downright laugh-out-loud silly (I can't help but think of a particular seance scene as I write this). I almost said "the pivotal seance scene." But that's not right, because the story tends to pivot and bolt in unexpected (but necessary) directions all the time.' Linköping Science Fiction Archive - Review by Mariann T. Woodward (very positive) http://sf.www.lysator.liu.se/sf_archive/sf- texts/books/W/Willis,Connie.mbox#bgc4soxg6ps.fsf@tinbergen.me dia.mit.edu She says: 'The time travel plot in To Say Nothing of the Dog is flawless. The incongruity causes numerous slippages in the time continuum, and even the slightest misstep causes considerable harm for the future. [...] I found myself trying to figure out the mystery along with Ned and Verity, stumbling as they did when ideas collapsed and breathing a sigh of relief when a step in the right direction was taken. The overall results, regardless of the situation, were hilarious, to say the least. Willis has a sharp eye for detail for Victorian society and customs; I learned much about the upper class in this book, and it never once felt like a history lesson. As Ned learned how to deal with his situation, I learned a little bit, too. It also helped that Willis has a terribly wicked sense of humor. Subtle and cutting, the jabs at all of those quirky customs within Victorian society sparked frequent giggles from me.' Review by Jim Mann (New England SF Ass.) (very positive): http://www.nesfa.org/reviews/saynothi.shtml He says: 'this is a wonderful time travel story of the "it^Òs really, really hard to change the past" school of time travel stories (of which Fritz Leiber wrote several great stories). In fact, Willis produces one of the most wonderfully complex and convoluted examples of the universe writing itself that I^Òve ever seen.' Review by Christina Schulman (positive): http://www.pitt.edu/~schulman/SF/nothing-of-the-dog.html She says: 'Willis repeatedly reminds the reader that history is a chaotic system, which appears to mean that it behaves according to the requirements of the plot. That plot is perhaps a bit overly convoluted, but it is tightly woven, and the writing is amusing throughout.' On the lighter sight, reed the 'Excerpts from WILLIS WATCH - A report of my historical observations of the career of Constance Elaine Trimmer Willis from 1981 to 2000 (Old Style). Time Drop Project Balliol 22846, funded by a grant from the Williamson Institute for Advanced Literary Studies' at http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~jimkelly/pages/willis1.htm written by James Patrick Kelly Interviews (actually chats) with Connie Willis: Chat transcript of 'Connie Willis answers your questions'. In Science Fiction Weekly #17 (1996) at http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue17/interview.html Transcript of moderated chat with Connie Willis on 30 August, 1997 hosted by SCIFI.COM at http://www.scifi.com/transcripts/worldcon97/ConnieWillis.html Transcript of chat on December 4, 1997 at Omni Magazine at http://www.omnimag.com/archives/chats/bios/willis.html Quote: Transcript of moderated chat with Connie Willis on 28 April, 1998 hosted by SCIFI.COM at Transcript of moderated chat with Connie Willis on 23 March, 1999 hosted by SCIFI.COM at Paul Kincaid: Connie Willis - A One-sided Dialogue (An imaginative interview) at http://www.ast.cam.ac.uk/~acb/intuition/pr1/cw.htm Connie Willis Fan page by Elisabeth (?) at http://geocities.com/Wellesley/5595/willis/willis.html Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:49:03 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG To Say Nothing of the Dog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to Petra for all the links. I laughed out loud many many times reading this novel. Found it charming. I am a fan of screw-ball comedy, so perhaps am willing to overlook the fact that the book often seemed two-dimensional (to say nothing of time travel)... Screw-ball comedy doesn't need to have a memory; it can say one funny thing one moment and a contrary funny thing the next. Uses primary colors, too. Characters, for instance, tend to be caricatures, as Petra notes. If you think of the great screw-ball comedies out of the 30's in Hollywood, the characters are shallow. What makes them *work* are the strong personalities of the actors who played them -- Carol Lombard, Roz Russell, Cary Grant, Katherine Hepburn... I was intrigued by the mechanics of the time-travel but never did think it quite worked, or maybe it's just that it seemed confusing. (Re-reading might correct this.) I did like the concept there at its heart: time as chaos, as a living system. It amused me that the future scholars seemed just as doofus as the 19th century ones. That ties in the time as continuum theme. The more things change the more they stay the same, so to speak. I do not, however, see this as a feminist novel. Just a fun one. best phoebe Phoebe Wray zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 23:27:31 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: TO SAY NOTHING OF THE DOG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What's up with discussing this? I know Monday was a holiday for many people, but... How did people feel about TSNOTD as compared to other Willis prose, especially DOOMSDAY BOOK? How did your level of familiarity with the time and place described in TSNOTD affect your enjoyment of the book? Maryelizabeth - -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 858.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:48:14 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: TO SAY NOTHING OF THE DOG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" I had read Doomsday Book first, so TSNOTD was familiar in setting and tone, which made it comfortable. Doomsday seemed a lot more thoughtful (it was more serious, but I think I remember laughing a few times even so), and I was fascinated by the premises of her future Oxford, which are much more completely laid out in Doomsday than they are in TSNOTD. I LOVE screwball comedies, which may correlate to the fact that the humor tickled me; the book had me laughing out loud in several places. I'm not at all familiar with Victorian England in a historical sense; I was totally willing to take Willis' word for it (without necessarily accepting her word as "truth"), so any incongruities there might have been didn't detract from my enjoyment at all. -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Maryelizabeth Hart [mailto:mystgalaxy@ax.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 4:28 PM > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU-LIT*] TO SAY NOTHING OF THE DOG > > > What's up with discussing this? I know Monday was a holiday for many > people, but... > > How did people feel about TSNOTD as compared to other Willis prose, > especially DOOMSDAY BOOK? > > How did your level of familiarity with the time and place described in > TSNOTD affect your enjoyment of the book? > > Maryelizabeth > > - -- > ************************************************************** > ********* > Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 858.268.4747 > 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 858.268.4775 > San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 > http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com > ************************************************************** > ********* > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:57:53 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG voting results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks to everyone who nominated and voted for books, and to Janice and Terri for doing the work to make this happen. Here are the books you selected. After some discussion we changed the reading order from alphabetical to easiest-to-procure in hopes that the most people possible can participate in each discussion: The Slave and the Free - September Ring of Swords - October The Mistress of Spices - November Flying Cups & Saucers - December You can get full title/author/price/ordering info from the nomination page at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/bdg_nom_0699.htm Of course, the July discussion of Connie Willis's _To Say Nothing of the Dog_ is already underway, thanks Petra for getting us started. And next up, starting Aug 2 is Octavia Butler's _Wild Seed_. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:23:32 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: TSNOTD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> Okay, Mary Elizabeth, I'll start. I like Connie Willis. I mean, I -really- like Connie Willis. I read "Firewatch" when it first came out, and have jumped on everything of hers since then. When I found out the book opened about the bombing of Coventry, I was delighted, I expected more Firewatch. Boy, was I mistaken. I found the switches back and forth in time confusing. I found the language confusing. I found the references to just about everything confusing. I almost gave up. I decided to invoke the 50-page rule. It took about 48 pages for me to get so hooked into the characters that I decided to struggle along and ignore whatever it was that I couldn't understand. And then, eventually, it all made sense. I didn't have near this much difficulty with The Domesday Book. But then, I'm pretty well-read on Europe and especially England between William the Conqueror and Elizabeth I. After Elizabeth, it gets fuzzy. I guess it's fuzzier than I thought about Victorian England. By the end of the book, I was enjoying it. But I think it's probably her most difficult. And I wouldn't recommend it as a first book for somebody who wants to read Willis. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:24:39 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Anitra Freeman Subject: Re: TO SAY NOTHING OF THE DOG In-Reply-To: <378290E3.F85@ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > How did people feel about TSNOTD as compared to other Willis prose, > especially DOOMSDAY BOOK? Like Sharon Anderson, I am a Connie Willis fan. I haven't read everything by her, but I've read a great deal. She writes in a wide range, from serious to madcap. This one was on the madcap end. I think that you do have to be a fan of screwball comedy to enjoy this book; like Phoebe and Sandy, I am, and I loved it. As in some of her short stories, Connie Willis treats chaos theory and quantum dynamics as a delightful new toy invented for writers, which I tend to think is the healthiest attitude toward them. As for its relation to DOOMSDAY BOOK: I have several times, while writing something solemn and heartfelt, had to choke back or cut out a totally innappropriate zany comment that popped in. Sometimes I've gone off and written the zany take on the same subject, by itself. TSNotD struck me as Willis revisiting DB and releasing her zaniness in the same venue that she had already treated solemnly. > How did your level of familiarity with the time and place described in > TSNOTD affect your enjoyment of the book? I had not read Three Men In a Boat, but I seem to have read just the right amount of Victoriana to enjoy TSNotD: enough that I felt at home, and not enough to be jarred by any discrepancies. Thank you to Petra for all the links. I don't regard the book as "feminist", myself, except in the very general sense that a good book by a woman writer may aid feminism. In a very roundabout way I got onto this list because a man on another list wailed "why are there no great female fantasy authors?" He got piled on. :) So many authors and titles were recommended that I collected them into a webpage that I had to split into three parts. One of the ones most frequently and passionately cited was Connie Willis. Not all of the authors and books recommended were feminist, but the question of whether women can write great, or even good, novels does have feminist overtones. Other possibly interesting questions: Male writers are often accused by feminists of writing stereotyped, wooden or decidedly negative female characters. Female writers are often accused in return of writing stereotyped, wooden or outright negative male characters. Personally, I don't believe that every book has to appeal to everyone, and if an author speaks exclusively to the left-handed midget transgendered lepers of lower Albania it isn't fair to criticize her for not including a well-characterized black male lawyer from Cleveland Ohio. But it is fun to examine who does the best job of presenting valid characters from both sexes: men who "feel" like someone you might know, women who "feel" like someone you might know. How do you think Connie Willis does at that? My own opinion is that the characters in TSNotD are meant to be stock, comic characters, so it's not a very good example of Willis's abilities at characterization, overall. Verity and Ned have their moments, however. I think that Verity has more of them: I could imagine Verity surviving on her own in my own world, and I can't imaging Ned surviving on his own in any world. But I found it possible to ride along on Ned's point-of-view without any jarring moments of "nobody would do *that*!" Write On! / Anitra L. Freeman / "Never doubt that a small group of imperfect people can improve the world--indeed they are the only ones who ever have." Not Margaret Mead ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:46:35 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Beth Brown Subject: Re: TSNOTD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know squat about Victorian England, at least not the details, but I found her description of the character and flavor of life at the home of Princess Arjumand very engaging. One thing about Connie Willis' writing which is unusual is her attention to mundane responsibility. Right after I finished TSNOTD I read Light Raid which she co-authored. In LR the heroine is responsible for an infant and a small child, with requisite details like diapers. In TSNOTD Cyril and Princess Arjumand take the place of children in terms of providing annoying, entertaining and down-to-earth details that make situations more believable. These are the kind of responsibilities--caring for children and animals--which frequently are consigned to female characters in literature if they are present at all. Willis spreads out domestic duties with an even hand. (Except of course for the Victorian wealthy, who had their servants) Time lag is a brilliant concept. It explains so many things... Beth ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 00:24:18 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: TSNOTD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/8/99 2:49:33 AM, Beth wrote: <> Oh yes, I have to second! I loved the bit about the cats. Willis must have some... best phoebe Phoebe Wray zozie@aol.com