From LISTSERV@listserv.uic.edu Thu Aug 24 18:52:04 2000 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:41:37 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG9912A" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:54:03 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Keith Subject: Re: Ring of Swords In-Reply-To: <005b01bf3bb5$3bf9a8c0$0901a8c0@wks45.hrc.govt.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks for coming in so late. I too finished the book just as the BDG was winding down, but did want to say how much I enjoyed this book. On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Jenny Rankine wrote: > I tried to find the discussions about this book on the archive site, but > couldn't work out how to do that. So I'll wade in relying on my terrible > memory. I had to borrow it from the library, so have only just finished it. > > I really enjoyed this book. I really hope Eleanor can get a publisher for > the sequel because I very much want to read it. > A Woman of the Iron People was very interesting reading, sort of a prequel. > > > I had trouble with two parts of it, but these are minor comments only and > didn't stop me being absorbed in the story. One was Anna - she was a > cipher - I didn't get a feeling for her as a character, merely an observer. > She is a loner; quick-thinking, as shown by the message sent from the boat > in the bay; self-sacrificing and dedicated to the cause of increasing > knowledge about alien cultures, as shown by her willingness to avoid > heterosexual relationships while living in the hwarhath space station; brave > in the face of her own people's military intelligence (definitely a > contradiction in terms) threats. But that is all I can say about her. > I had the same problem with Anna's amorphousness - but if I considered her (rightly or wrongly) as closest to the author's point of view, then the shapelessness fit - how well could we describe ourselves?. Nicholas, on the other hand....a living, breathing, thoroughly realized character (except, of course, for that moment of panic - that did seem more of a plot device to move things forward than a reasonable act on the part of the Nick I thought I knew). > I found Ring of Swords an interesting comparison to Jaran (I think other > people may have made this comment). The two societies were alike in the > kinds of roles men and women occupied, with women running the administration > and the peacemaking and men running the wars; and the kind of strong social > control used to restrict them to those roles. I found the hwarhath's > disgust at heterosexuality more believable than the Jaran's disgust at > homosexuality, given the way they were both drawn. I thought the playwright's dilemma was great irony! And although I can't agree with essentialism, this was one of the more believable essentialist cultures I've come across. But again, because the men's action was in the foreground and the women's usually described third hand, the men's side of things was a lot more believable and, yes, interesting. I really enjoyed this book overall. Still can't quite pin down why, but it was a place I wanted to spend a lot of time in. Maybe the furry grey aliens? I live with one, a twenty-pound feline-grizz mix named Tazz - thinking of changing that to Gwarhah. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:22:59 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: Ring of Swords In-Reply-To: <005b01bf3bb5$3bf9a8c0$0901a8c0@wks45.hrc.govt.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 1 Dec 99, Jenny Rankine wrote: > I tried to find the discussions about this book on the archive site, > but couldn't work out how to do that. So I'll wade in relying on my > terrible memory. I had to borrow it from the library, so have only > just finished it. The RoS discussion is not yet archived at the BDG website. I still have the emails (about 15) in my mail folder and can forward them to you if you like. Just send me a (private) email. > I had trouble with two parts of it, but these are minor comments only > and didn't stop me being absorbed in the story. One was Anna - she > was a cipher - I didn't get a feeling for her as a character, merely > an observer. [...] But that > is all I can say about her. I feel after seeing the world through her > eyes for a longish book I should have a much clearer picture of her > views, habits of thought and personality. But I don't. I wonder > whether that's me or the style of writing. I wouldn't call Anna a cipher but I agree that one doesn't get to know her really. IMO it's because in the parts that are told from her point of view she doesn't reflect much about her life (as far as I remember) but tells a lot of how she sees Nicholas and the others. And Nicholas in turn does not tell a lot about her in 'his' parts of the book but reflects a lot on his experiences and his relationships to the Hwarhath and to his lover. I think this is due to that the focus of the book is on the unknown Hwarhath while the humans as the familiar are only perfunctorily described. > What's happened to discussion on these lists, anyway - is it holidays > in the US or something? It seems to have died and my e-mail reading > is poorer as a result. The discussions more and more dwindled in the last months. And discussions outside of the BDG hardly ever occur any more. I wonder why it is so. I thought about starting a discussion on this some weeks ago when it was time for the next BDG nomination round because more and more I questioned whether it makes sense to go through the whole nomination process. But I didn't because there was no time due to my upcoming vacation (as I handle the nominations) and - even more important - I did not quite know how to raise the issue. I miss the lively discussions of the first year of the list (1997). But perhaps it's simply my nostalgic lense. It might be that as the FSF list and the BDG have lost their novelty people are less ready to post on issues that have been discussed before or they don't feel the urge to respond so much and just leave some topics be. With the BDG it might also be that for a time people are ready and able to read according to a common schedule and to post on the books but after a time everybody slackens. And that now there are not enough active BDG participants left for a lively discussion. I don't want to say that I don't like the BDG discussions anymore, only that sometimes they are rather slow. Case in point the november discussion of _The Mistress of Spices_ which consisted of 3 postings (if I have not missed some messages due to my vacation). Any thoughts or ideas on this? Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:52:46 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Flying Cups MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Next Monday the BDG discussion of the anthology _Flying Cups_ starts. It's the first time we discuss an anthology in this group. For that I have a suggestion concerning the spoiler protocol. Normally 'BDG' in the subject line is the spoiler warning for the book under discussion. I think that's not sufficient in this case as IMO short stories live much more than novels from the punch line. And people should be able to participate in the discussion of a story while they have not yet read the whole book. My suggestion is to avoid all spoilers for stories while discussing the anthology in general under the 'BDG Flying Cups' heading. And to post messages on the single stories under a specific subject, e.g. 'BDG The Lovers' or 'BDG Venus Rising'. In February we discussed a story collection (_A Fisherman_ by Le Guin) and at that time my impression was that because there were all these different storylines the discussion was hampered somehow. Thus, my next suggestion is a schedule for discussion for the various stories to focus discussion on the single stories. When I nominated the anthology I selected 8 of the 13 stories for discussion - as is asked by the BDG nomination rules. I propose the following schedule Dec. 6 Eleanor Arnason, "The Lovers", James Patrick Kelly, "Chemistry" Dec. 9 Carol Emshwiller, "Venus Rising" L. Timmel Duchamp, "Motherhood, Etc." Dec. 13 R. Garcia y Robertson, "The Other Magpie" Delia Sherman, "Young Woman in a Garden" Dec. 16 Ian McLeod, "Grownups" Ursula K. Le Guin, "The Matter of Seggri" Dec. 20 The remaining stories: - Kelley Eskridge, "And Salome Danced" - Ursula K. Le Guin, "Forgiveness Day" - Ian McDonald, "Some Strange Desire" - Graham Joyce, Peter F. Hamilton, "Eat Reecebread" - Lisa Tuttle, "Food Man" This is _only_ a suggestion. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:36:52 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Tracy Mitchell Subject: Re: BDG Flying Cups Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii (Re: Petra's reading order suggestion) I think your suggestion is a very good one and plan to follow it! Tracy To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU cc: Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Flying Cups Next Monday the BDG discussion of the anthology _Flying Cups_ starts. It's the first time we discuss an anthology in this group. For that I have a suggestion concerning the spoiler protocol. Normally 'BDG' in the subject line is the spoiler warning for the book under discussion. I think that's not sufficient in this case as IMO short stories live much more than novels from the punch line. And people should be able to participate in the discussion of a story while they have not yet read the whole book. My suggestion is to avoid all spoilers for stories while discussing the anthology in general under the 'BDG Flying Cups' heading. And to post messages on the single stories under a specific subject, e.g. 'BDG The Lovers' or 'BDG Venus Rising'. In February we discussed a story collection (_A Fisherman_ by Le Guin) and at that time my impression was that because there were all these different storylines the discussion was hampered somehow. Thus, my next suggestion is a schedule for discussion for the various stories to focus discussion on the single stories. When I nominated the anthology I selected 8 of the 13 stories for discussion - as is asked by the BDG nomination rules. I propose the following schedule Dec. 6 Eleanor Arnason, "The Lovers", James Patrick Kelly, "Chemistry" Dec. 9 Carol Emshwiller, "Venus Rising" L. Timmel Duchamp, "Motherhood, Etc." Dec. 13 R. Garcia y Robertson, "The Other Magpie" Delia Sherman, "Young Woman in a Garden" Dec. 16 Ian McLeod, "Grownups" Ursula K. Le Guin, "The Matter of Seggri" Dec. 20 The remaining stories: - Kelley Eskridge, "And Salome Danced" - Ursula K. Le Guin, "Forgiveness Day" - Ian McDonald, "Some Strange Desire" - Graham Joyce, Peter F. Hamilton, "Eat Reecebread" - Lisa Tuttle, "Food Man" This is _only_ a suggestion. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:20:37 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Flying Cups In-Reply-To: <199912011753.SAA14868@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The book under discussion in the BDG this month is the anthology _Flying Cups and Saucers_, edited by Debbie Notkin and the 'The Secret Feminist Cabal'. This is an anthology of 13 stories that won or were shortlisted for the 1991-1995 James Tiptree Jr. Awards. The Tiptree Award website at http://www.tiptree.org/book/index.html says about the anthology: 'This first anthology contains almost all of the short fiction that has either won or been short-listed in the first five years of the award.' I checked and if I made no mistake 'Cocoon' by Greg Egan, shortlisted for the 1994 Tiptree is the only shorter piece missing. That astonished me at first but in the first 5 years of the Tiptree much less shorter fiction were shortlisted than in the following years (11 stories for 1998 alone). When I nominated the book I said that it gave a nice indication of the 'present state' of feminist science fiction. Do you think that's right or did the anthology (and thus the Tiptree juries) miss important pieces in the early nineties? Nalo Hopkinson reviewed the anthology for Science Fiction Weekly (only review magazine of scifi.com) http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue90/books.html#fc Quote: 'Now that women are well represented in SF, why is there a Tiptree Award at all? Why reprint some of its short-listed stories in one anthology? Because more than 30 years after James Tiptree Jr. "became" Alice Sheldon, gender, gender roles and sexuality are still contested ground. And not just for women; in 1998, the Tiptree organizers changed the description of the award to read "exploration of _male and_ female gender and gender roles." In a world where gender equality is still seen as a "women's issue," it became necessary to clarify. In fact, the preponderance of intersexed characters in Flying Cups and Saucers would seem to indicate a re-thinking of gender itself, not just gender roles.' Don Webb reviewed FC for Tangent Online http://www.sfsite.com/tangent/books/fly.htm Quote: 'I know this book is three things. 1) It is an important book. 2) It is a good book, and 3) it will be misunderstood and bought (and not bought) for the wrong reasons. [...] It is annoying to write this postive a review, because for the exact reason the book will be mis-sold and mis-unsold. Debbie Notkin did admit to a political agenda. Now I have nothing against political agendas, I am rather busy trying to change the world myself at my weekly internet column http://www.fringeware.com/dwebb/, but many people who feel pro-causa will pick up the book in the same spirit that they might buy high fiber oatmeal. This is sad, because these tales deserve to be read, and read deeply. Others will avoid the book fearing some strident demoness will appear and harangue them. (Actually the idea of a strident demoness sounds rather nice to me.) So I see this work not as a feminist work, despite the nobility that is often in that cause, but a bridge to what could be -- if Science Fiction were written by the partisans of Desire -- and the true deep Xenophilia that runs in our veins is given the license that it so greatly needs.' I have to own I resent these comments. Haven't there been several Nebula and Hugo Award Winner anthologies? And what about 'topical' anthologies? Webb seems to question the Tiptree Award in itself. The stories in the anthology are very diverse and IMO there is no common factor or theme. What astonished me a bit was the seeming predominance of stories focusing on physical/biological aspects of gender, be it hermaphrodites, hormones for love, body changes when growing up, etc.. At the end of the book stories like 'Young Women' and 'Matter of Seggri' were for me sort of a relief. What general impression did you get from the anthology? Petra P.S.: Last week I proposed the following schedule for discussing the single stories (and already I am a day late): Dec. 6 Eleanor Arnason, "The Lovers", James Patrick Kelly, "Chemistry" Dec. 9 Carol Emshwiller, "Venus Rising" L. Timmel Duchamp, "Motherhood, Etc." Dec. 13 R. Garcia y Robertson, "The Other Magpie" Delia Sherman, "Young Woman in a Garden" Dec. 16 Ian McLeod, "Grownups" Ursula K. Le Guin, "The Matter of Seggri" Dec. 20 The remaining stories: - Kelley Eskridge, "And Salome Danced" - Ursula K. Le Guin, "Forgiveness Day" - Ian McDonald, "Some Strange Desire" - Graham Joyce, Peter F. Hamilton, "Eat Reecebread" - Lisa Tuttle, "Food Man" Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:10:20 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG The Lovers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT by Eleanor Arnason, first published in Asimov's, 7/1994 This story is one of my favourites in the anthology. I cannot say much right now because our server will be down soon to be prepared for the New Year. I hope I can add to it tomorrow. As in _Ring of Swords_ the telling is very detached but this time this is due to the telling as a revised legend. I very fondly remember the man (name?) for his humaneness and rationality. She broke a taboo when she defended him and killed other men (who otherwise would have left her completely alone). Because he was already different he could accept that and hide it so that she would not be ostracized. Or do you think it was due to love? Was it due to love or only compassion that she defended him? Did you perceive it as love what was between them? It was downplayed so much, somehow I missed the emotionality that is generally attached to love (some great monologue about that they cannot stay together or so). The Tiptree jury on this story http://www.tiptree.org/1994/short.html 'Arnason has explored this territory before but finds new insights this time around. The story concerns heterosexual love in a world that allows no such thing. The lovers convincingly embody gender choices that neither their society nor ours is quite prepared to sanction. (Brian Attebery) Like Arnason's other "hwarhath" stories, this poignant tale explores gender on several levels, like a mobile of mirrors that catches new reflections with each turning. Neither Eyes-of- Crystal nor Eh Shawin is a revolutionary, yet their love both grows from and profoundly challenges the deepest assumptions of their society. By incorporating comments about the "author" of the tale, and finally its evidently human translator/editor (who might well be Anna Perez of Ring of Swords), Arnason sketches a broader timescape of a culture in transition. I'm impressed! (Susanna J. Sturgis) ' An Eleanor Arnason Page by David Lenander http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m391/d- lena/Eleanor%20%26%20trog.html offers among others a story by Arnason and a Hwarhath bibliography at http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m391/d-lena/SmallBlackBox.html Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:10:59 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Chemistry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT by James Patrick Kelly, originally appeared in Asimov's 6/1993. The Tiptree jury about this story http://www.tiptree.org/1993/short.html 'In Kelly's vivid story, all of the interactive negotiations that transpire between lovers have been reduced to chemical transactions. One might think that this love story would end up as interesting as the purchase of a used car, but ultimately it is love story and a touching one. [Steve Brown] A lovely story which makes the distinction between love and sexual attraction in a different way. A sweet love story and good science fiction. If gender-bending can be construed to mean the way men and women relate to each other sexually, as well as socially, this one nicely fills the bill. [Susan Casper] a short story that starts by talking about love as if it were the interaction of chemicals and ends by making the interaction of chemicals a sweet and poignant story of love. [Maureen F. McHugh] ' Don Webb wrote about this story in his Tangent Online Review: '"Chemistry" by James Patrick Kelly explores love parlors where the right mix of hormones can be placed in one's bloodstream to make love the sure outcome of the evening -- and something you're over by dawn. James plays two roles here -- he gives us a sentimental tale of old-fashioned love without chemical boosts on the surface, but shows the power of manipulation and salesmanship as the hero gets the girl on the next level. But then lets us wonder if this is so bad at the core level. This quiet jewelry- like approach is why Jim is so wonderful to read.' James Patrick Kellys homepage 'Strange but not a Stranger' http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~jimkelly/index.htm Feature on Kelly by Henry Jenkins in Media in Transition in 1997 http://media-in- transition.mit.edu/science_fiction/profiles/kelly_index.html Some more comments tomorrow. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/