From LISTSERV@listserv.uic.edu Thu Aug 24 18:52:07 2000 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:41:37 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG9912B" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 03:33:23 -0500 Reply-To: Amy Harlib Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: BDG Flying Cups MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The book under discussion in the BDG this month is the anthology > _Flying Cups and Saucers_, edited by Debbie Notkin and the 'The > Secret Feminist Cabal'. This is an anthology of 13 stories that won > or were shortlisted for the 1991-1995 James Tiptree Jr. Awards. > > > > The stories in the anthology are very diverse and IMO there is no > common factor or theme. What astonished me a bit was the > seeming predominance of stories focusing on physical/biological > aspects of gender, be it hermaphrodites, hormones for love, body > changes when growing up, etc.. At the end of the book stories like > 'Young Women' and 'Matter of Seggri' were for me sort of a relief. > > What general impression did you get from the anthology? > > Petra > > I got a very similar impression to yours. I tended to favor the more 'exotic' world-building stories of le Guin and Arnason and such ilk. Most of the stories were too frustratingly short and ended just when I wanted to know what would happen next (a problem I have with nearly ALL short stories which is why I much prefer novels). One story I absolutely HATED because it had no logic or why or wherefore and made no sense to me whatsoever---Food Man Still, I'm glad I read it for the provocative ideas and feelings concerning such an important topic as gender issues contained therein. The le Guin and Arnason stories were worth the price of admission alone---can't get enough of those particular authors. Amy (avid lifelong reader of SF & F literature in NYC) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:14:27 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Motherhood, Etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT by L. Timmel Duchamp Pat is an intriguing character. She is surprisingly strong in a very difficult situation. In the beginning I could not quite understand why she insisted so much on her privacy but when I saw how she was treated I could understand perfectly. The officials (especially the first 2) were surprisingly dumb. It reminds me of one comment in the BDG on _Ring of Swords_ about the dumbness of the military people in that novel. Could it be that it is a sort of cliché nowadays that secret service and military people, even those which are actually intelligent, are dumb (and completely paranoid) in the organizational context? Or is it true? The scene in which Pat has an erection is hilarious but would (such) men really be so discomposed by it? The end (when Pat is rescued by her lover) was too pat in my opinion. I found it important that Pat's transformation is triggered by blood contact due to an accidental (little) wound and not by sex, especially as the 2 interrogators are so fixated on the latter. Don Webb in his Tangent Online Review: 'Hermaphrodites seem to have a fascination for Notkin, since they show up in three other tales as well. The best of them being "Motherhood, Etc." by L. Timmel Duchamp in which an alien alters a woman so that she can impregnate him. This is likewise a good anti-authoritarian tale, that follows the heroism of the woman Pat as she deals with the medical reaction to her growing a penis. It is a very good meditation on loving partners who are difficult.' Anti-authoritarian tale yes, but otherwise IMO this summary does not fit the story. L. Timmel Duchamp's Homepage http://www.halcyon.com/ltimmel/index.html Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:22:03 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Venus Rising MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT by Carol Emshwiller This story I've read some months ago and my memory is not very clear on it. I wondered about the woman who tells the story. What exactly is her motivation to follow the stranger? The story was interesting in that sense that the woman (and her people) are much stronger and more capable (especially in that environment) as the new-comer. But because they don't know rape and exploitation they do not defend themselves. I think only the teller of the story really develops the concept of 'rape'. Are the others raped when they do not know what rape is? The stranger got a glimpse sometimes that what he does is wrong and that he could be much happier in another way but his pre- conceptions inhibit that he realizes it fully. Tiptree jury member (not specified) on the story: http://www.tiptree.org/1992/short.html '"Liked the alien sense of Emshwiller's amphibious people. An explicitly feminist story which also has an underlying, rationalized yet subtle science-fictional rationale. I like the way Venus Rising can be read both metaphorically and as a 'pure' science fiction story." ' Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:38:01 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: BDG Flying Cups In-Reply-To: <033b01bf4156$e58a4420$c0034f0c@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 8 Dec 99, Amy Harlib wrote: > I got a very similar impression to yours. I tended to favor the more > 'exotic' world-building stories of le Guin and Arnason and such ilk. > Most of the stories were too frustratingly short and ended just when I > wanted to know what would happen next (a problem I have with nearly > ALL short stories which is why I much prefer novels). One story I > absolutely HATED because it had no logic or why or wherefore and made > no sense to me whatsoever---Food Man > Still, I'm glad I read it for the provocative ideas and feelings > concerning such an important topic as gender issues contained therein. One year ago I would have agreed that I prefer novels to short stories and that the latters are too short (I always need some time to get into the story and when I'm finally there then it's already at the end). But this year I read the Women of Wonder: Classic Years anthology (and part of the Contemporary Years one), then read the Tiptree collection 'Her Smoke Rose Up Forever', _Flying Cups_ and some single stories on the internet and I noticed that by now I somehow 'learnt' how to read a short story. What I mean, I am better 'conditioned' for short stories now. The Food Man story also puzzled me. You said (I paraphrase) that you liked the Arnason and the LeGuin stories best. My favourites in _Flying Cups_ are _The Lovers_, _The Matter of Seggri_ (I somehow do not like _Forgiveness Day_), _Young Woman in a Garden_ and _The Other Magpie_ (that does not mean that I dislike the remaining stories). What favourites do other readers have? To spur the discussion a bit. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:40:01 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: BDG Flying Cups In-Reply-To: <199912091238.NAA21438@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:38 PM 12/9/99, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: >What favourites do other readers have? To spur the >discussion a bit. I plan to write plenty more on this anthology (as well as the past two BDG books, which I have been too crazy lately to comment on), but this is a question that is easy to answer quickly. "The Matter of Seggri" is a story I have reread several times and still find heartbreaking. I found the way in which Le Guin reverses some elements of sex roles and not others to be very interesting. And I very much enjoyed her technique of beginning with distanced 19th century-style travel narrative and in stages arriving at the very personal, detailed account of Ardar Dez. I felt drawn in inexorably. I think it is one of the best stories Le Guin has ever written. "Grownups" by Ian R. MacLeod gets my vote as the weirdest tale in this anthology. And I mean that in a good way. I am still not sure if the main characters are aliens and futilely resisting their normal developmental process or if some unnatural change is supposed to have occurred to the human race (the necessity of the bitter milk and all that bleeding upon "growing up" seemed to indicate this). Whichever is the case, the story seemed stranger for the suburban setting -- it was really quite creepy. I'm interested to read some other stories by this author. Others that I liked are "The Lovers" and "Forgiveness Day". Perhaps I need to reread stories individually, because when I read the anthology for the first time I became overloaded on the hermaphrodites and felt that some other themes were old hat. I look forward to talking about them more... -- Janice ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 03:41:51 -0500 Reply-To: Amy Harlib Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: BDG Flying Cups MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > You said (I paraphrase) that you liked the Arnason and the LeGuin > stories best. My favourites in _Flying Cups_ are _The Lovers_, > _The Matter of Seggri_ (I somehow do not like _Forgiveness Day_), > _Young Woman in a Garden_ and _The Other Magpie_ (that does > not mean that I dislike the remaining stories). What favourites do > other readers have? To spur the discussion a bit. > > Petra > > Young Woman in a Garden was exceedingly well-written but it was purely 'mundane' mainsteam INMHO. Where was the speculative/sf content in the story? So the invented 19th century Impressionist painter turned out to be living with lesbian lovers (his wife and his mistress) which is a reversal of the standard hetero-threesome stereotypes where the two women would revolve around the man (the man revolves around the two women in the story). What is fantastical about that? It's a good story but what has it got to do with F & SF? > > I adored The Other Magpie which I should have mentioned as my favorite along with the le Guins and the Arnason. It was a wonderful blend of detailed history from a deliciously detailed Native American POV with the added fantastical frisson of ghosts and spirits which were (to the Native Americans) as real as anything in 'ordinary' reality. Not to mention the contrast in attitudes the white men and the natives had towards cross-dressing, gender role expectations and homosexuality! GREAT STUFF! Amy > > Petra Mayerhofer > mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de > -- > BDG website > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:29:41 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: BDG Flying Cups I think it was Amy who said she didn't like to read short stories because just as she gets into them they're over. Maybe that's why I stopped reading them. If it hadn't been for this group I never would have read Flying Cups, what a loss that would have been. Yes, I would have enjoyed having the characters and ideas more fully explored in novels, but these stories are delicious as they stand. I couldn't really go right from one to the next, had to take a day or so and ruminate on each on, and oh, the food for thought they give. Someone asked something to the effect of now that there's equality between males and females in literature is there still a need for the Tiptree. Too funny. I sure don't see the equality. There are so many more male than female characters in everything I read, unless it is specifically feminist, or radical feminist, that I don't see equality anywhere in the foreseeable future. Even the Harry Potter books, written by a woman, willing to explore and validate the magical world of childhood. The main character is male, most of his friends and enemies are male, there are a few ancillary females, one sort of main character who's female but so far, I've read only the first two books, she doesn't have near the development of the males. In almost everything I read that has male and female characters, even if the female is the pivotal character, most of the story goes to the men and their culture. I'm thinking of Jaran and Ring of Swords. In Jaran the woman rides with men and so gets to go on adventures. In Ring of Swords everyone complains that Anna just isn't a fully developed character. Even if one day we get to the point that most books are written with equal emphasis on men and women, will there still be room for the other, ambiguous or just differently expressed genders? I don't see it happening any time soon. I imagine we'll need these Tiptrees just to point out work that can stretch our concept of equality or full expression of personhood. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:46:26 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Flying Cups, The Lovers I read The Lovers before Ring of Swords. Arnason can just draw me in. I liked this better than Ring of Swords, I think, because it took place on the home planet, and I liked the development of that culture. Would I have made the decision of Eyes of Crystal to fight to protect my friend-lover even though a fundamental concept of my whole society was that a woman would not fight? I think it took Ring of Swords to make me understand what a tremendous step that violence was for her. Her planet was safe because women didn't fight. Women could build a planet and men could be exiled to space because women didn't fight. I can't think of any such fundamental concept on this world that I would be willing to disregard. Well, there is no such concept, is there? Though sexual equality does not exist, women still may bear or not bear children, work inside and outside the home, love men or women, worship one or many or no gods or goddesses, fight or not fight, be celibate or promiscuous, study physics and/or bake brownies. We may have to face ridicule, ostracism or punishment for our choices, but I can't think of a choice we could make that would destroy our world. And if there were such a choice, I don't know that I'd be willing to make it. By the way, what an intriguing idea that Anna was the translator of the story. It makes sense, but it hadn't occurred to me. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 00:33:17 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Flying Cups Venus Rising This was my favorite of all the stories. It fits in well with a recurrent discussion on women's spirituality lists. If once there was a goddess honoring culture: matriarchal, egalitarian, life affirming, valuing joy, leisure, self expression and interaction; how did it become buried by the god fearing culture: patriarchal, hierarchical, anhedonic, linear, goal oriented and warlike? I think this story expresses a possible scenario. Venus, who has just come into her good fat (who wouldn't love the honoring of that state?) follows That One around because she loves to learn and he is so different, she wants to see what he will do. She's so open and loving that she thinks she can teach him to feel joy and she wants to experience the different places he goes. He rapes her and he rapes others but it almost feels to them as if he's done nothing there's so little to the act. The others find him boring but Venus is more adventuresome than they and is willing to give him way beyond the benefit of the doubt if he can help her find new things in life to enjoy. So she represents the gatherer hunter society just enjoying life. That One represents the god fearing hordes. He wants to plant his little seed everywhere he can. He wants single handedly (or single penilely) to create a whole new race of red headed tree-ocean dwellers. He apparently has no sense of the value of life, he rapes and kills whomever he needs to get his job done. He is so foreign to Venus that in spite of seeing over and over again the injury he can inflict on her people, she takes almost the whole story to see the extent of the damage he plans. As she says, "It's as if he wants the opposite of fun. Could such a person be?" She doesn't recognize him as evil because evil is foreign to her. In this tale of The Mists of Avalon, the dolphin-hippopotamus Ladies of Avalon win over the orangutan Christians. But there was only one of him this time. When a peace loving people is confronted by a whole tribe of warriors the island recedes into the mist. Three cheers for Venus and her laughing family that they won this round. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 00:53:23 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Flying Cups, the Lovers Well, this is more Ring of Swords than the Lovers, but it's the same culture. Last night I saw Soldier with Kurt Russell, and it reminded me so much of Arnason. In it boys are raised from birth to be soldiers. There comes a time when colonists have to decide whether or not it is safe to have in their midst a man who has been trained to do nothing but fight. It was kind of a strange movie. All the soldiers were gorgeous, Kurt Russell, Jason Scott Lee, these were the average looking soldier. The colonist men, besides being really wussy, were mostly unattractive too. A big vote for the strong silent type. Remember when Mr. Spock was the ultimate strong, silent man? Well the soldiers made him look downright garrulous. Unless absolutely necessary to speak, they communicated with a slight nod or shrug. Some were very slight, almost imperceptible. I think Russell did a great job with the material, but what is it telling people? These are the desirable men, the ones who can't talk, can't relate to others, can't even feel or understand their feelings but live only to protect. Best be finding them their own satellites to live on away from us womenfolk. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:01:45 GMT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marianne Reddin Aldrich Subject: Re: BDG Flying Cups Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Joyce Jones wrote: >There are so many more male than female characters in everything I >read, >unless it is specifically feminist, or radical feminist, that I >don't see >equality anywhere in the foreseeable future. Even the >Harry Potter books, >written by a woman, willing to explore and >validate the magical world of >childhood. The main character is male, >most of his friends and enemies are >male, there are a few ancillary >females, one sort of main character who's >female but so far, I've >read only the first two books, she doesn't have >near the development >of the males. >In almost everything I read that has male and female characters, even >if >the female is the pivotal character, most of the story goes to the >men and >their culture. I'm thinking of Jaran and Ring of Swords. In >Jaran the >woman rides with men and so gets to go on adventures. In >Ring of Swords >everyone complains that Anna just isn't a fully >developed character. Hrrrrm. Well, I was going to suggest Phillip Pullman's _The Golden Compass_ and C.S. Lewis' _The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe_, since both are very good children's fantasy with a strong, central female character, but then I realized they both took place in such a way that 'most of the story goes to the men and their culture'. Offhand, the only non-male-centred books I can think of are Joan D. Vinge's _The Snow Queen_ and _The Summer Queen_ ... Marianne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 11:22:57 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: BDG Flying Cups, the Lovers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joyce Jones wrote, >.... Last night I saw Soldier with Kurt Russell, and it reminded me so >much of Arnason. In it boys are raised from birth to be soldiers. There >comes a time when colonists have to decide whether or not it is safe to have >in their midst a man who has been trained to do nothing but fight. It was >kind of a strange movie. All the soldiers were gorgeous, Kurt Russell, >Jason Scott Lee, these were the average looking soldier. The colonist men, >besides being really wussy, were mostly unattractive too. A big vote for the >strong silent type. Remember when Mr. Spock was the ultimate strong, silent >man? Well the soldiers made him look downright garrulous. Unless >absolutely necessary to speak, they communicated with a slight nod or shrug. >Some were very slight, almost imperceptible. I think Russell did a great >job with the material, but what is it telling people? These are the >desirable men, the ones who can't talk, can't relate to others, can't even >feel or understand their feelings but live only to protect. Best be finding >them their own satellites to live on away from us womenfolk. Yeah, that movie stuck in my mind, too. I think that it was a male-p.o.v. fantasy, depicting an extreme version of the way some men believe they are supposed to act, and the prison this can become. I have been a soldier, was once married to one, and spent about 12 years surrounded by them, and to me this rings true. I have never encountered a group of people with a more well-developed fantasy life, who see themselves as martyrs, in a way, for having voluntarily (as opposed to the forced role Russell's character had to fulfill) accepted both the responsibility for protecting the wimminfolk back home (their pov, not mine) and the rejection of the greater society for the things they have to do to accomplish this. Soldiers--especially in wartime, but also, to some extent, in peacetime--often believe (rightly, imho) that civilians have no understanding of the problems they face and thus are unlikely to be willing to discuss their true feelings and beliefs with anyone who is not or hasn't been in the military. This type of reticent selfprotection can become extreme, although--of course--not as extreme as in the film. But still, some soldiers get a sense of perverse satisfaction out of dwelling on these sacrifices they see themselves as having made and wear their emotional wounds as badges of honor. Incidentally, I believe Kurt Russell's character knows full well what kind of emotional life has been denied him, and this adds to the poignancy of his situation. He knows the civilians have no reason to trust him and he doesn't blame them. All he can do is try to prove himself not a monster. Sheryl ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:57:45 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: BDG Flying Cups MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/12/1999 7:02:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, marseillaise@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << Offhand, the only non-male-centred books >> There is a book called Into the painted bear's lair with a woman knight who has silver armor. Wonderful story.... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:44:00 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Barbara Wolf Subject: Re: BDG Flying Cups MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On no books with central women characters: what about CJ Cherryh, Robin McKinley, Ursula Le Guin's Tehanu, Tepper's Grass and Beauty.....short stories by Joanna Russ and Charnas' books? Bobbi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 17:44:30 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Female Characters in Harry Potter & Diana Wynne Jones In-Reply-To: <001501bf4472$a8633e20$67c9193f@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:29 PM 12/11/99 -0800, Joyce Jones wrote: >There are so many more male than female characters in everything >I read, unless it is specifically feminist, or radical feminist, that I >don't see equality anywhere in the foreseeable future. Even the >Harry Potter books, written by a woman, willing to explore and >validate the magical world of childhood. The main character is >male, most of his friends and enemies are male, there are a few >ancillary females, one sort of main character who's female but so >far, I've read only the first two books, she doesn't have near the >development of the males. I agree with your assessment, Joyce. This is one of several things that bothered me about the first Harry Potter book (the only one I have read). What makes it worse is that the author knows better. She takes care to name quite a few female students in the admittance ceremony -- I didn't count but it seemed like about a 50/50 balance with the male names -- but she couldn't be bothered to feature any of them as characters. Most are mentioned that one time and never heard from again. And the one female friend of Harry's is only allowed to become his friend after she changes her personality to be more like his. UGH. One author who does much better with similar material is Diana Wynne Jones. I wouldn't call her feminist exactly (at least from the evidence of the books I have read), but women are often protagonists in her books and her writing is often delightfully funny. So far my favorite of her books is *Hexwood*, a brilliant fantasy / science fiction hybrid with a female main character. The only others I have read are *Archer's Goon*, *Cart and Cwidder*, and *Deep Secret*. Has anyone else read her books? If so, do you have any recommendations as to what I should read next? She's got so many! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: The *Velvet Goldmine* Soundtrack "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 22:49:20 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laurel Lamme Subject: Re: Female Characters in Harry Potter & Diana Wynne Jones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Janice E. Dawley" wrote: > One author who does much better with similar material is Diana Wynne Jones. > I wouldn't call her feminist exactly (at least from the evidence of the > books I have read), but women are often protagonists in her books and her > writing is often delightfully funny. So far my favorite of her books is > *Hexwood*, a brilliant fantasy / science fiction hybrid with a female main > character. The only others I have read are *Archer's Goon*, *Cart and > Cwidder*, and *Deep Secret*. Has anyone else read her books? If so, do you > have any recommendations as to what I should read next? She's got so many! Diana Wynne Jones is a favorite of mine, and I would agree that several of her books which I have read would compare favorably to the Harry Potter novels. I am thinking in particular of *Witch Week*, which also features a school with children who have magical powers, although in a world which forbids them. Rather than mysterious enemies and black magic, Jones makes it clear that danger comes from the twisted social structure of both the students and their superiors. Although the book ends with a magical solution which I found unsatisfying, on the whole I found the imperfect feats of magic and the students' limited and cruel world more interesting than a clear good vs. evil plot. I have not noticed much overt feminism in her writing, but her female characters are usually strong, funny, and get into just as much trouble as the males do, if not more. She plays with gender in *Aunt Maria*, which describes a town where the old women rule and the men are "zombies" - not one of her best efforts, in my opinion. I consider several of her books classics for young adults, including *A Tale of Time City* and *Dogsbody*, but would recommend them to fantasy readers of any age. Laurel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 03:45:54 -0500 Reply-To: Amy Harlib Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Female Characters in Harry Potter & Diana Wynne Jones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Diana Wynne Jones is one of my #1 favorite writers! She was doing the same thing as Rowley but much better and more sophisticated and for far longer---she's too good, and thus never achieved the kind of mass popularity that the H. Potter books have. So many of her books have strong female protagonists or female characters sharing equal time with the males: Cart and Cwidder is the first book of a quartet all highly recommended (Drowned Ammet, The Spellcoats, The Crown of Dalemark); Howl's Moving Castle and its sequel Castle In the Air; A Sudden Wild Magic; Dark Lord of Derkholm; The Power of Three; A Tale of Time City; Fire and Hemlock; Time of the Ghost, Aunt Maria; Witch Week; Homeward Bounders; Charmed Life; The Lives of Christopher Chant; The Magicians of Caprona; The Ogre Downstairs; Wilkin's Tooth. There's an excellent website devoted to this writer: http://suberic.net/dwj/#flowershop ENJOY!!! Amy > > One author who does much better with similar material is Diana Wynne Jones. > I wouldn't call her feminist exactly (at least from the evidence of the > books I have read), but women are often protagonists in her books and her > writing is often delightfully funny. So far my favorite of her books is > *Hexwood*, a brilliant fantasy / science fiction hybrid with a female main > character. The only others I have read are *Archer's Goon*, *Cart and > Cwidder*, and *Deep Secret*. Has anyone else read her books? If so, do you > have any recommendations as to what I should read next? She's got so many! > > ----- > Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT > http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ > Listening to: The *Velvet Goldmine* Soundtrack > "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; > the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and > servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:28:58 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=FCrr,_Melitta?=" Subject: Octavia Butler In-Reply-To: <199912121544_MC2-90C4-D30E@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Currently, I am reading Octavia Butler's "Kindred". This is a highly interesting book. Her style is, as always, really fascinating. I am studying American litrerature and linguistics at the University of Mannheim in Germany and I am doing some research on feminist science fiction, especially on Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis Trilogy as well as Kindred and on Ursula K. Le Guin's Left Hand of Darkness and The Lathe of Heaven. Is anyone interesting in discussing with me, in talking with me about these novels? I am 31 years old and just finishing my masters in these subjects. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:26:18 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: Octavia Butler In-Reply-To: <199912131529.QAA02085@rumms.uni-mannheim.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have read KINDRED a number of times, and just finished teaching it in a sophomore level multicultural American literature class. I'll be glad to talk about it , or some of her other books (though it's been a while since I read them, and I haven't read her two most recent ones). Butler and LeGuin are an interesting pairing. Robin At 04:28 PM 12/13/99 +0100, you wrote: >Currently, I am reading Octavia Butler's "Kindred". This is a highly >interesting book. Her style is, as always, really fascinating. >I am studying American litrerature and linguistics at the University >of Mannheim in Germany and I am doing some research on >feminist science fiction, especially on Octavia Butler's >Xenogenesis Trilogy as well as Kindred and on Ursula K. Le Guin's >Left Hand of Darkness and The Lathe of Heaven. >Is anyone interesting in discussing with me, in talking with me >about these novels? >I am 31 years old and just finishing my masters in these subjects. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:37:25 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: Octavia Butler In-Reply-To: <199912131529.QAA02085@rumms.uni-mannheim.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Welcome to the list. I hope you enjoy it. Octavia Butler and Ursula Le Guin are favourites of many people on the list. You may be interested to know that we had a BDG discussion (= book discussion group discussion) of _Wild Seed_ in August and of _A Fisherman of the Inland Sea_ in February which are archived at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/archives/bdg_wildsee d.txt and at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/archives/bdg_fisherm an.txt And _Dawn_ is scheduled for February for the BDG (further info on the BDG you can find at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ). But the BDG is only one feature of the list. You can start discussion on former and future BDG books anytime! Petra ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:50:11 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lassnig Subject: Octavia Butler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have also been doing some research on Octavia Butler's SF as well as on Nalo Hopkinson's debut novel "Brown Girl in the Ring" (I'm currently writing my dissertation on these), and obviously I'd love to discuss Butler's fiction. To set the ball rolling, I was wondering why you, Melitta, have chosen the Xenogenesis trilogy along with Kindred and Le Guin's novels? Do you see any parallels? Why not some of Butler's other novels, or Le Guin's for that case? Hope you enjoy the list and greetings to all, Ines ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:59:05 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Castiello=20Restituta?= Subject: Re: Octavia Butler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm writing my thesis for my B.A. at the University of Salerno on Octavia Butler Xenogenesis series and particularly on the first book, Down. The themes suggested by the book are manyfold but I'm particularly interested in the theme of monstruosity as related to the biblical charachter of Lilith. If you want I can send you a list of books and materials I've gathered so far and I'm glad to exchange opinions on the subject. Restituta --- "Dürr,_Melitta" scritto: > Currently, I am reading Octavia Butler's "Kindred". > This is a highly > interesting book. Her style is, as always, really > fascinating. > I am studying American litrerature and linguistics > at the University > of Mannheim in Germany and I am doing some research > on > feminist science fiction, especially on Octavia > Butler's > Xenogenesis Trilogy as well as Kindred and on Ursula > K. Le Guin's > Left Hand of Darkness and The Lathe of Heaven. > Is anyone interesting in discussing with me, in > talking with me > about these novels? > I am 31 years old and just finishing my masters in > these subjects. > ______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it