From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thu Jul 12 20:28:31 2001 Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 07:39:50 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0001C" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:52:03 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Diane Severson Organization: iVillage Free Email (http://fe-mail.ivillage.com:80) Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF-LIT Digest - 5 Jan 2000 to 6 Jan 2000 (#2000-3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I finished Briar Rose a few days ago and must say I really enjoyed it. I breezed right through it. >Yolen also says that the Jewish Community and >holocaust groups completely ignored her book, but the >queer community welcomed it with open arms and gave it >a lot of press. It doesn't really surprise me though that the Jewish community has ignored it and the Gay community has embraced it. Speaking strictly from an outsider's perspective (I'm neither Jewish nor Gay) I would say that for Jews there's not much new in this story. That Gemma forgot or denied (to a certain extent) her past and her connection to WWII is something that a lot of people have done. I personally found it interesting that she should dress her experience in a rather harmless fairy tale. It might have been more interesting to Jews had Yolen gone more deeply into Gemma's own feelings in relation to ttelling her granddaughters this fairy tale over and over. But that would have been another book entirely. The part about gays in the war was if not new at least interesting and fleshed out more that the Jewish aspect. I thought Jewishness played a minor role in this story. Diane Severson Moerfelder Landstr. 108 60598 Frankfurt am Main (49)69-613371 (49)69-624595 (+Fax and answering machine) -- Join the most exciting community of women on the web! iVillage.com's FREE membership gets you private email, your own home page, special discounts and sweepstakes, and dozens of problem-solving tools. http://www.ivillage.com/frame/join_email.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:31:36 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Briar Rose In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I've read _Briar Rose_ last weekend but one in one rush, I could not put it down. I had expected something else from the book. From the descriptions I thought it would be a retelling of the fairy tale in the 'magic realism' mode but it is a completely realistic novel. I do not complain, however. This was the first Yolen book I've read. I liked it so much I ordered _The Book of Alta_. Like others on this list I like retellings of fairy tales but _Sleeping Beauty_ never especially appealed to me (there are others which strike closer to home). I have to look up the original Grimm version. By the way, if anybody's interested, Briar Rose is Dornroschen in German (the second o is an Umlaut, the syllables are Dorn-ros- chen). What's remarkable (but not unbelievable) is that in 50 years the daughter never asked her mother any further questions. It's only one of the granddaughters who really wants to know after they've found the box. As somebody already said the love story is a bit too cute and facile (if icky means that) and IMO rather unnecessary for the whole story. I will remember the book for the second part of it (i.e. the story of the old Polish man) but without the first part I probably wouldn't have read it. This part of the story especially got to me because the activities of the resistance group was shown as so futile, so hopeless. Both groups that we are shown end their existence by a risky campaign, their actual goal being to be killed. The only difference is that after what we've followed the activities of the second group for some time we can understand their decision. So far I had only heard stories about the French resistance which is usually presented in a very different light, e.g. in Marge Piercy's _Gone to Soldiers_. I was a bit surprised about how the hierarchy of jews and gays in the concentration camp was presented because so far I've thought it the opposite. 20 years ago I've seen a play (_Bent_) about gays in Nazi Germany who are deported to concentration camps. An important aspect of the plot was that gays were treated worse than jews in the camp (I don't think that I remember it wrong because of what one of the gay man did to get a yellow triangle instead of a pink one). According to the background information distributed at that time judicial rulings of Nazi courts against gays were not cancelled after the war because they were not seen as unlawful and gay survivors of concentration camp were not recompensed. As I assume that Jane Yolen has carried out research on this I wonder now what's true (perhaps both in different circumstances). Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:52:55 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Re: BDG Briar Rose MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Petra M. wrote: >>What's remarkable (but not unbelievable) is that in 50 years the daughter never asked her mother any further questions. It's only one of the granddaughters who really wants to know after they've found the box.<< I am not Jewish, nor do I have any Jewish friends I feel close enough to to ask, so what I am about to say may be all wet. But from everything I've ever heard on holocaust documentaries, etc., in real life, the survivors usually actively discouraged their children from asking any questions, laying a heavy guilt trip on the kids so that they didn't even WANT to think about asking. Yes? NO? This is a good question, and I'd really like to know the answer. ---s ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:52:36 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: NYT Interview with Octavia Butler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In the present issue of Science Fiction Weekly they quote a recent interview of the New York Times with Octavia Butler. They write: (http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue143/news.html) Butler Not Sanguine About Future Octavia E. Butler, author of a dozen SF novels and winner of a prestigious MacArthur "genius grant," doesn't believe the new century will see an improvement in racial or sexual attitudes. In a rare interview, Butler told The New York Times, "I don't mean that it's going to get worse. I just mean that we human beings are such naturally contentious creatures. "The only way the two issues could disappear is under a regime so totalitarian that we are not permitted to talk about it," said Butler, one of the few African-American women writing SF. "In countries where there are no racial differences or no religious differences, people find other reasons to set aside one certain group of people and generally spit in their direction. ... It delights people to find a reason to be able to kick other people." Butler's latest novels, Parable of the Sower and Parable of the Talents, are stories about a dystopian American future. "We are a naturally hierarchical species," she said. "When I say these things in my novels, sure I make up the aliens and all of that, but I don't make up the essential human character, the way we are." I looked it up at the NYT website. It should be the following article: January 1, 2000, Saturday VISIONS: IDENTITY; 'We Tend to Do the Right Thing When We Get Scared' IN Octavia E. Butler's latest novels, ''Parable of the Sower'' and ''Parable of the Talents,'' the near future is grim and dangerous. Americans have been devastated by an economic meltdown that makes water too expensive to bathe in. A religious right ... Unfortunately they don't offer it online. Petra P.S.: _Dawn_ by Butler is our BDG book in February. Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:43:57 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Danamarie Hough Subject: BDG Briar Rose MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D2B76056163E1AA6D6700B3F" --------------D2B76056163E1AA6D6700B3F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First off, I'm new here and just wanted to say hello. I have been a feminist for most of my life and am just starting to get into SF/Fantasy, so I thought I'd like it here. Unfortunately, I have not read Briar Rose (although I plan to now), so I can't speak directly about the book. However, although I am by no means an expert, I have done some work with the Holocaust and wanted to address Sharon's comment regarding the silence surrounding it. Your guess is right on from what I've studied, but the guilt goes even deeper. According to Art Spiegelman, author of Maus and (obviously) child of a survivor (COS), his father was plagued with angst over having survived. A former shoemaker, he'd repaired shoes for German soldiers--how many more people were killed because a Nazi had a good pair of shoes? He was a frail man and probably would not have lived had he not had a skill--should he have lived? Other survivors have similar stories: they were women who lived in the 'puffs' (free brothels for German soldiers located on camp premises), or children who ran messages. And when they truly hadn't done anything but manual labor, survivors had even more difficulty coming to grips with their lives, because there was no single event or action to explain it. They worried that they had worked too well, gotten a slightly larger chunk of bread, or a more nourishing bit of broth. In any case, the guilt starts with surviving and turns to anger and hostility toward the next generation. Not only is all talk of "the events" suddenly taboo, but now the very natural selfishness of childhood becomes a platform to rant about how easy the new generation has it. It's not a pretty picture, and most COSes will admit to very strained, uncommunicative relationships with their parents. Sorry to make such a long first post, but I hope this help to clarify aspects of the novel. It sounds like you're all really enjoying it and I can't wait to join you for the next one. -D --------------D2B76056163E1AA6D6700B3F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First off, I'm new here and just wanted to say hello.  I have been a feminist for most of my life and am just starting to get into SF/Fantasy, so I thought I'd like it here.  Unfortunately, I have not read Briar Rose (although I plan to now), so I can't speak directly about the book.

However, although I am by no means an expert, I have done some work with the Holocaust and wanted to address Sharon's comment regarding the silence surrounding it.  Your guess is right on from what I've studied, but the guilt goes even deeper.  According to Art Spiegelman, author of Maus and (obviously) child of a survivor (COS), his father was plagued with angst over having survived.  A former shoemaker, he'd repaired shoes for German soldiers--how many more people were killed because a Nazi had a good pair of shoes?  He was a frail man and probably would not have lived had he not had a skill--should he have lived?

Other survivors have similar stories: they were women who lived in the 'puffs' (free brothels for German soldiers located on camp premises), or children who ran messages.  And when they truly hadn't done anything but manual labor, survivors had even more difficulty coming to grips with their lives, because there was no single event or action to explain it.  They worried that they had worked too well, gotten a slightly larger chunk of bread, or a more nourishing bit of broth.

In any case, the guilt starts with surviving and turns to anger and hostility toward the next generation.  Not only is all talk of "the events" suddenly taboo, but now the very natural selfishness of childhood becomes a platform to rant about how easy the new generation has it.  It's not a pretty picture, and most COSes will admit to very strained, uncommunicative relationships with their parents.

Sorry to make such a long first post, but I hope this help to clarify aspects of the novel.  It sounds like you're all really enjoying it and I can't wait to join you for the next one.

-D --------------D2B76056163E1AA6D6700B3F-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:11:59 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Diane Severson Organization: iVillage Free Email (http://fe-mail.ivillage.com:80) Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF-LIT Digest - 15 Jan 2000 to 17 Jan 2000 (#2000-11) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Petra M. wrote: >I was a bit surprised about how the hierarchy of jews and gays in >the concentration camp was presented because so far I've thought >it the opposite. I really have no authority on this subject matter at all. I imagine that treatment in a concentration camp was pretty horrible for anyone regardless of why you were there. It is possible that certain people hated gays more than Jews and treated them accordingly and vice versa. It's probably a matter of circumstance and perspective. Sharon Anderson wrote: But from everything I've ever >heard on holocaust documentaries, etc., in real life, the survivors usually >actively discouraged their children from asking any questions... I think that Yolen made this pretty clear in the book that this was the case. NOne of the granddaughters really asked about her past while she was alive either. Diane --- Diane Severson Moerfelder Landstr. 108 60598 Frankfurt am Main (49)69-613371 (49)69-624595 (+Fax and answering machine) -- Join the most exciting community of women on the web! iVillage.com's FREE membership gets you private email, your own home page, special discounts and sweepstakes, and dozens of problem-solving tools. http://www.ivillage.com/frame/join_email.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:43:38 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: BDG Briar Rose MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I have to look up the > original Grimm version. > By the way, if anybody's interested, Briar Rose is > Dornroschen in > German (the second o is an Umlaut, the syllables are > Dorn-ros- > chen). In the original version of the tale Sleeping Beauty is not awakened by a kiss but rather by the birth of twins after the Prince who got threw the the dnagers of the castle impregnates her. > I will remember the book for the second part > of it (i.e. the > story of the old Polish man) but without the first > part I probably > wouldn't have read it. I hadn't read Briar Rose in a number of years and I had completely forgotten all the parts leading up to meeting the gay holocaust surviour. I only remembered his tale. It was the part that stuck with me and really it is a story within a story in the novel. The tone and pacing of his entire retelling is very different from the rest of the book. Lyla __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 17:47:48 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: NYT Interview with Octavia Butler In-Reply-To: <200001180852.JAA03721@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I said: > I looked it up at the NYT website. It should be the following article: > January 1, 2000, Saturday VISIONS: IDENTITY; 'We Tend to Do the Right > Thing When We Get Scared' > Unfortunately they don't offer it online. Wrong. Excerpts can be found at http://www.nytimes.com/specials/010100mil-identity-octa.html Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:41:20 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: BDG BRIAR ROSE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry about that empty message-- hit the send button too soon! I've really enjoyed reading everyone's comments on Briar Rose, and I'm looking forward to being introduced to new books like this one, books I probably wouldn't read on my own. I agree with others about the love story being too facile, but I thought that wooden quality also spilled into the book as a whole, with the interjections of the fairy tale being somewhat predictable until the end where the true subject and heart of the novel is introduced-- the gay resistance fighter's narrative. It's a powerful attempt at creating specific vision of the holocaust, which can so easily turn to cliché. Yolen avoids this, yet that section is overwritten in parts-- similes and metaphors like "a devil's rainbow", etc. tip the scales towards sentimentality, which must be avoided always, but especially where the holocaust is concerned. I'm sorry to be so hard on the book, I was glad to be introduced to it and would be interested in hearing about the other books in the Fairy Tale series. --Allyson Lyla Miklos wrote: > > Behind as usual, I just read this one today...I've > > always been fond of Jane > > Yolen, and I liked this one too. For some reason the > > writing seemed a bit > > clunky, > > All the bits with the editor at her local nespaper and > them getting to know eachother better were rather icky > and reminded me of the time when I used to read Sweet > Valley High books. > > I found the most engaging part of the tale the bit > where the gay survivor recounts his story. The images > from that sequence have always stuck with me. > > Lyla > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:15:34 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: BDG BRIAR ROSE In-Reply-To: <3884A5B4.BC03C198@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >I'm sorry to be so hard on the book, I was glad to be introduced to it >and would be interested in hearing about the other books in the Fairy >Tale series. I've been thinking a lot lately about why this book seems so flawed in its telling, when I'm so fond of many of her other books. I think the key is that Jane Yolen really is a fabulous fairy tale teller, and when she moves into more modern styles something is lost. I think she changes the language and makes it a little less formal, and loses something in the doing. I haven't read anything else by her in quite a while, though, so I'd be interested in hearing from people who've read Briar Rose and one of her fantasy novels recently. I've read several of the other Fairy Tale books. Mostly they're more fantastical. I believe that Stephen Brust's _The Sun, the Moon and the Stars_ uses the same fairy-tale-as-framing device, but I read it something like ten years ago. I remember liking it at the time. Patricia Wrede's _Snow White, Rose Red_ is a retelling of the story set in Elizabethan England, also not a recent read. Pamela Dean's _Tam Lin_ is a favorite of mine; it's set in a college in the 70s. There's not a lot of explicit magic, but if you know the story of Tam Lin you can see a lot of it peeking through. My second time through it seemed obvious. I haven't read any of the others. Jessie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:07:07 -0600 Reply-To: quiltedpoetry@att.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Liz Bennefeld Subject: Re: BDG BRIAR ROSE In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000118110731.0099a100@mail1.pa.bell-labs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I also enjoyed Wrede's _Snow White, Rose Red_, but the first Fairy Tale book I read was Pamela Dean's Tam Lin. I've reread that one several times, now; no other book has really been equal to it. Liz On 18 Jan 00, at 11:15, Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: >> I've read several of the other Fairy Tale books. Mostly they're more fantastical. I believe that Stephen Brust's _The Sun, the Moon and the Stars_ uses the same fairy-tale-as-framing device, but I read it something like ten years ago. I remember liking it at the time. Patricia Wrede's _Snow White, Rose Red_ is a retelling of the story set in Elizabethan England, also not a recent read. Pamela Dean's _Tam Lin_ is a favorite of mine; it's set in a college in the 70s. There's not a lot of explicit magic, but if you know the story of Tam Lin you can see a lot of it peeking through. My second time through it seemed obvious. I haven't read any of the others. > > Jessie -- Elizabeth W. Bennefeld Managing Editor, Dark Star Publications http://www.darkstarpublications.com Freelance Writer/Editor d.b.a. The Written Word http://home.att.net/~thewrittenword/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:23:48 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: BDG BRIAR ROSE Comments: To: quiltedpoetry@att.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have greatly enjoyed the anthologies put out by Terri Windling and Ellen Datlow. They contain retellings of classic fairytales by famous sci-fi and fantasy writers. Right now I am enjoying Angela Carter's "The Bloody Chamber". Her stuff is very very dark. Lyla __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:20:16 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: Carter's Bloody Chamber MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angela Carter is one of my favorite authors-- I'm teaching The Bloody Chamber to my freshman writing class, it's the first time I've used this text in the classroom. I'm afraid it might be too dark for them, but maybe they will go for it. I hope so. I'll have to check out the Datlow anthology-- what's the title? Any thoughts on Carter so far? --Allyson Lyla Miklos wrote: > I have greatly enjoyed the anthologies put out by > Terri Windling and Ellen Datlow. They contain > retellings of classic fairytales by famous sci-fi and > fantasy writers. > > Right now I am enjoying Angela Carter's "The Bloody > Chamber". Her stuff is very very dark. > > Lyla > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:16:26 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Nike Organization: Griffith University Subject: Re: Carter's Bloody Chamber In-Reply-To: <3885033E.B948556B@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'm also a big fan of Carter's work. I'll be teaching one of her longer texts - Wise Children - in a course for 2nd year uni this semester. > Angela Carter is one of my favorite authors-- I'm teaching The > Bloody Chamber to my freshman writing class, it's the first time > I've used this text in the classroom. I'm afraid it might be too > dark for them, but maybe they will go for it. I hope so. > > I'll have to check out the Datlow anthology-- what's the title? > > Any thoughts on Carter so far? > --Allyson > > Lyla Miklos wrote: > > > I have greatly enjoyed the anthologies put out by > > Terri Windling and Ellen Datlow. They contain > > retellings of classic fairytales by famous sci-fi and > > fantasy writers. > > > > Right now I am enjoying Angela Carter's "The Bloody > > Chamber". Her stuff is very very dark. > > > > Lyla > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:24:27 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Nike Organization: Griffith University Subject: not really Briar Rose In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000118110731.0099a100@mail1.pa.bell-labs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I've been trying to get hold of some of these books for a while. I have Kara Dalkey's The Nightingale, which I really enjoyed, as did my teenage daughter, who is intrigued by all things Japanese. I haven't finished Briar Rose yet, but I do agree w/ below - it's not as strong as her more strictly fantastical work - a little falsely didactic? I get the feeling its reaching a little too hard to make an important point, sometimes at the cost of a good story. Nike > > I've been thinking a lot lately about why this book seems so flawed > in its telling, when I'm so fond of many of her other books. I think > the key is that Jane Yolen really is a fabulous fairy tale teller, > and when she moves into more modern styles something is lost. I > think she changes the language and makes it a little less formal, > and loses something in the doing. I haven't read anything else by > her in quite a while, though, so I'd be interested in hearing from > people who've read Briar Rose and one of her fantasy novels > recently. > > I've read several of the other Fairy Tale books. Mostly they're more > fantastical. I believe that Stephen Brust's _The Sun, the Moon and > the Stars_ uses the same fairy-tale-as-framing device, but I read it > something like ten years ago. I remember liking it at the time. > Patricia Wrede's _Snow White, Rose Red_ is a retelling of the story > set in Elizabethan England, also not a recent read. Pamela Dean's > _Tam Lin_ is a favorite of mine; it's set in a college in the 70s. > There's not a lot of explicit magic, but if you know the story of > Tam Lin you can see a lot of it peeking through. My second time > through it seemed obvious. I haven't read any of the others. > > Jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:53:31 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: Carter's Bloody Chamber MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I'll have to check out the Datlow anthology-- > what's the title? Datlow and Windling have been putting together for over a decade The Best of Horror and Fantasy collections that come out every year. The fairy tale anthologies they have put out so far include. . . . Black Swan, White Raven Snow White, Blood Red Silver Birch, Blood Moon Ruby Slippers, Golden Tears Blck Thorn, White Rose and Black Swan, White Raven I checked out the Amazon.com site and it looks like two new ones are coming out this year. Black Heart, Ivory Bones and A Wolf At The Door and Other Retold Fairy Tales > > Any thoughts on Carter so far? > > --Allyson I enjoyed the Bloody Chamber, although it reminded me a lot of Daphne's and Hitchcock's "Rebecca". I find Angela tends to drift a bit in her narrative structure. I'm read la la la la and then I go what?!? What's going on? and I have to go back to where it kinda took a turn into some weird abstract rather than direct telling of the tale. I remembering watching Neil Jordan's "The company of Wolves" and finding the film really lacked a tight narrative structure so I grabbed the short story from the shelf at a super big bookstore and read it right there on the spot and realized the original story was more about themes and symbolism than plot. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:56:42 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marge Simpson Subject: EOS CON III MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii EOS, the sf imprint of Avon books, is having it's 3rd online Science Fiction Convention, January 29, 2000, 4-8pm EST http://www.eoscon3.com The eoscon3.com site will be available after January 23 SCHEDULE OF EVENTS > > 4-5pm ROOM A > Worldbuilding From The Ground Up > DAVE DUNCAN, DENNIS JONES, ANNE McCAFFREY, and > JULIET MCKENNA discuss what > it takes to build a world and bring it alive with > characters and story. > 4-5pm ROOM B > Technological Access: The New Caste System > KAGE BAKER, DENNIS DANVERS, KATHLEEN ANN GOONAN, and > SEVERNA PARK talk about > how access to technology and information will create > new class distinctions. > 5-6pm ROOM A > History of the Alternate > DAVE DUNCAN, ELIZABETH HAND, GUY GAVRIEL KAY, and > MARTHA WELLS know how to > make history suit their needs. Find out how they do > it in this panel > discussion. > 5-6pm ROOM B > The Science of Disaster > Things will always go wrong-it's just a matter of > time. GREGORY > BENFORD, ELIZABETH HAND, JACK MCDEVITT, and WALTER > JON WILLIAMS explain how > scientific fact plays a role in their novels. > 6-7pm ROOM A > Military Maneuvers in SF and Fantasy > We have a wealth of military history and theory at > our disposal. Join TRACY > HICKMAN, SUSAN R. MATTHEWS, and KRISTINE SMITH as > they discuss how they put > this knowledge to use. > 6-7pm ROOM B > Fantasy Outside the Box > JEFFREY FORD, SHARON GREEN, JANE ROUTLEY, and > MAGARET WEIS don't write your > typical fantasy novels. Find out what drives them > toward redefining the > genre and making it truly their own. > 7-8pm ROOM A > How to Get Published > Get the facts straight from acquiring editors and > published authors. Eos > Editors CAITLIN BLASDELL, JENNIFER BREHL and DIANA > GILL team up with authors > JAMES ALAN GARDNER, VICTORIA STRAUSS, and MAGARET > WEIS and explain what to > do in order to get published. > 7-8pm ROOM B > How To Promote Yourself: Spec Fiction and the Media > A publicist can't do everything. Publicists Andy > Heidel and Lindsay Lifrieri > team up with authors SUSAN R. MATTHEWS and JANNY > WURTS to explain how to > promote yourself once you've been published. ===== http://www.angelfire.com/ab2/midgeworld/ :: midgeworld :: __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:09:12 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: April Goodwin Smith Subject: Re: EOS CON III MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cool. Thank you for sharing! April. (long time lurker) --- Marge Simpson wrote: > EOS, the sf imprint of Avon books, is having it's > 3rd > online Science Fiction Convention, January 29, 2000, > 4-8pm EST > http://www.eoscon3.com > The eoscon3.com site will be available after > January 23 > > > SCHEDULE OF EVENTS ===== "Things that try to look like things often do look more like things than things. Well-known fact." Esmerelda Weatherwax. (Pratchett, 1988) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com