From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thu Jul 12 20:29:03 2001 Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 07:39:52 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0002D" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 08:27:54 -0600 Reply-To: quiltedpoetry@att.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Liz Bennefeld Subject: Re: Next Month's Selection In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000221134416.006b61b4@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I also have not located The Dazzle of Day, but I've got both A Door Into Ocean and the Starfarers series on my shelves. Consensus decision-making has always seemed improbable to me. Has there ever been a society that relied on true consensus of opinion for determining a course of action? Liz On 21 Feb 00, at 13:44, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > > The complexity of consensus decision-making (a major theme of *The > Dazzle of Day*) is dealt with in both *A Door Into Ocean* by Joan > Slonczewski and the *Starfarers* series by Vonda McIntyre. ... -- E. W. Bennefeld Freelance Writer, Editor, and Academic Style Editor Since 1984 d.b.a. The Written Word QuiltedPoetry@att.net http://home.att.net/~TheWrittenWord/ http://WordQuilts.home.att.net/ "The antithesis of altruism is nihilism." -- E. Wicker ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:13:36 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: Next Month's Selection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I also have not located The Dazzle of Day, but I've got both A Door > Into Ocean and the Starfarers series on my shelves. Consensus > decision-making has always seemed improbable to me. Has there > ever been a society that relied on true consensus of opinion for > determining a course of action? I believe that Slonczewski takes inspiration from the Quaker traditions of consensus decision-making. That's not a society in some senses, but it is the Society of Friends. ;-) There are a number of jokes within the Quaker community on the committees and the time consumed by making decisions by consensus... I haven't yet ready _The Dazzle of Day_ or the Starfarers series, but I find it somewhat interesting that Slonczewski ends up kind of skirting around the problems in both _Door Into Ocean_ and _Still Forms on Foxfield_. Of course, the worst problems occur when the society run by consensus runs into conflict with a society that is not run by consensus. -allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:15:54 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: Next Month's Selection Comments: To: quiltedpoetry@att.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dazzle of Day is on the shelf at my bookstore, so if you don't see it in a store, it can surely be ordered there or on line. For those who haven't read the book, the basis of the consensus-reaching in the text is Quakerism. I'm not a Quaker and haven't seen this actually work, but from reading this book I'm willing to believe that at least ONE form of consensus-based decision making MIGHT work, provided all the people involved agreed to the method and had similar temperaments. I agree with Liz, though, that in my own experience, it's a hair-tearing way to make decisions. Why? Well, I'm sure we'll all get into this once the discussion officially starts. Sheryl -----Original Message----- From: Liz Bennefeld To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 8:39 AM Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Next Month's Selection I also have not located The Dazzle of Day, but I've got both A Door Into Ocean and the Starfarers series on my shelves. Consensus decision-making has always seemed improbable to me. Has there ever been a society that relied on true consensus of opinion for determining a course of action? Liz On 21 Feb 00, at 13:44, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > > The complexity of consensus decision-making (a major theme of *The > Dazzle of Day*) is dealt with in both *A Door Into Ocean* by Joan > Slonczewski and the *Starfarers* series by Vonda McIntyre. ... -- E. W. Bennefeld Freelance Writer, Editor, and Academic Style Editor Since 1984 d.b.a. The Written Word QuiltedPoetry@att.net http://home.att.net/~TheWrittenWord/ http://WordQuilts.home.att.net/ "The antithesis of altruism is nihilism." -- E. Wicker ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:47:13 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Susan Hericks Subject: Re: looking for book title MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I ususally love Tepper, bu thave to add that I, for one, found _Six Moon Dance_ really disappointing and an almost total bore! Isn't reading strange.... Susan -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy H. Griffith To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 2:02 PM Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] looking for book title >On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:34:07 -0500, Misha Bernard wrote: > >> I just have to ask for help, since this has been driving me slowly >>nuts in the back of my mind. >> I need to have some leads on the title or author of a book that I >>stupidly read last summer, but can't for the life of me recall. >> >> Briefly, a planet is visited by a robot 'woman' judge of >>humanity. > >Sherri Tepper, _Six Moon Dance_, an excellent book. Tepper outdoes >herself with reversals of perception in this one... a Must Read. > > >--Jeremy H. Griffith > http://www.omsys.com/jeremy/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:54:53 -0600 Reply-To: quiltedpoetry@att.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Liz Bennefeld Subject: Harper (was Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Archives Updated) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Harper is the one who wrote Lightwing! She did some other stuff, too --- fantasy, I think --- which I couldn't get through, but Lightwing was top-notch science fiction! Liz On 21 Feb 00, at 13:41, Roxanne Korpal wrote: > > Also.. how do we suggest > authors/books. I'm curious if anyone here has read or heard of Tara K. > Harper, an author out of Oregon, US. I personally love her books, but > haven't found anyone else who has heard of her beyond what I've shared > from my own readings. > > Again, apologies for the clutter. Won't happen twice. > > Roxanne -- E. W. Bennefeld Freelance Writer, Editor, and Academic Style Editor Since 1984 d.b.a. The Written Word QuiltedPoetry@att.net http://home.att.net/~TheWrittenWord/ http://WordQuilts.home.att.net/ "The antithesis of altruism is nihilism." -- E. Wicker ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:37:07 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Valerie Eakes-Kann Subject: Re: Next Month's Selection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I actually used a consensus process in college in the student coop system. Consensus was an arduous process that required much discussion to make any kind of decision. Often they were long discussions about things that I more than once thought were completely trivial. It definitely wasn't efficient, but you certainly heard from all sides. It is important to have similar temperaments or the process tends towards the filibuster. One thing that I thought was interesting and changed the dynamic of consensus was the ability for one person to 'major object' to a decision that seemed very close to consensus. It's a lot of power, but everyone has it. Anyone can decide they can't live with a decision and major object. Sometimes, however, the decisions seemed to be decisions by attrition. Not attrition of people in the discussion (because we also had a rule of quorum where anyone could say we didn't have a quorum and we'd have to save discussion for the next meeting) but attrition of attention spans. Believe you, me, on your 10-15 meal in a row spent discussing the merits and horrors of white flour, it's hard to take it seriously. And there were a couple of times things came to a straight vote because we couldn't take it any longer. It was a great experience for seeing a decision making body use a system other than Robert's Rules. Val ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 05:21:05 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: SIX MOON DANCE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan: I really enjoyed it, especially at the end when spoiler sex saves the planet! end spoiler. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Did you have a better experience with SINGER FROM THE SEA? Maryelizabeth Susan Hericks wrote: > I ususally love Tepper, bu thave to add that I, for one, found _Six Moon > Dance_ really disappointing and an almost total bore! Isn't reading > strange.... > > Susan -- Maryelizabeth Hart Publicity Manager ****************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 858.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ****************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:03:52 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: looking for book title In-Reply-To: <000001bf7dac$23a18ca0$263e45cf@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:47 PM 2/21/00 -0600, you wrote: >I ususally love Tepper, bu thave to add that I, for one, found _Six Moon >Dance_ really disappointing and an almost total bore! Isn't reading >strange.... > >Susan Interesting--I had been rather disappointed with some of her recent novels (which I went back and reread after SIX MOON and found a bit more in than I'd thought), the ones set more on Earth, but I found this novel completely re-invigorating and fantastic and loved how it played such a trick on me at the end. This just shows the vital role "readers" play in the process: that is, readers actively participate in the process of reading, not all reading the "same" story, and our own backgrounds, interests, personal experiences, responses, etc. play a major role in why we do or do not "like" a book...I loved DANCE. Robin >----- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:22:01 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: Next Month's Selection In-Reply-To: <38B30F93.BB392ABC@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Sometimes, however, the decisions seemed to be decisions by attrition. Not >attrition of people in the discussion (because we also had a rule of quorum >where anyone could say we didn't have a quorum and we'd have to save >discussion >for the next meeting) but attrition of attention spans. I worked on a student newspaper which governed by consensus, and we used the terms "hard consensus" and "soft consensus", meaning "everyone agrees" and "no one cares enough to prevent this proposal". Some decisions could be made by soft consensus; others had to have everyone actively behind them. It worked fairly well, although sometimes people would be unwilling to say they honestly agreed but also unwilling to let the process drag out any longer. Jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:41:50 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: slightly OT -- consensus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone else hear about the 26 anarchists who met with the mayor of an Oregon town, but then spent all their meeting time arguing about who, if any of them, represented the other anarchists in the area? True story, AFAIK. Maryelizabeth -- Maryelizabeth Hart Publicity Manager ****************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 858.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ****************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:52:42 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: slightly OT -- consensus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hell, as an anarchosymp of long standing, I've been present at not a few would-be "anarchist" representatives' attempts to assert their bona fides (bone fidid?)... -----Original Message----- From: Maryelizabeth Hart [mailto:publicity@MYSTGALAXY.COM] Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 3:42 PM To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSF-L*] slightly OT -- consensus Anyone else hear about the 26 anarchists who met with the mayor of an Oregon town, but then spent all their meeting time arguing about who, if any of them, represented the other anarchists in the area? True story, AFAIK. Maryelizabeth -- Maryelizabeth Hart Publicity Manager ****************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 858.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ****************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:46:12 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Frances Subject: Re: slightly OT -- consensus I'd be tempted to join the anarchists if they would just get themselves organized. Does anyone remember Eric Frank Russell's novel, the title of which has slipped out of my mind (The Great Explosion??), which included a totally anarchic society which functioned on the MYOB principle, and repelled invaders by sheer passive resistance? I often wondered how they would have dealt with members who tried to impose their own viewpoint with violence. Frances (Just re-reading Singer From the Sea: subsequent readings of Tepper are always more rewarding than the first in my experience, since one knows what is going to happen and can concentrate on the details.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:06:33 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: slightly OT -- consensus: Frances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Anarchists have no problem getting organized...the problem remains in old habits of dominance and submission. Freedom brings responsibility, and not everyone is up for both. My fave anarcho-flavored skiffy stuff includes FREE ZONE by Charles Platt, the introductory passage of Damon Knight's A FOR ANYTHING (as depressing as it is) and the eventual society portrayed in the CV/THE OBSERVERS/A REASONABLE WORLD trilogy, and some of what UKLG has laid out for us, of course. Have yet to read John Shirley's contribution, but have read Donald Westlake's remarkably insane ANARCHAOS, which is as rabidly and ignorantly anti-anarchist as any McCarthyist screed against the Reds. Particularly odd given the libertarian (broad sense) tone of much of Westlake's other SF. Russell was one of Us, definitely. Damned if I can remember right now if "Jay Score" was relevant, as the years occlude. -----Original Message----- From: Frances [mailto:hagsrus@BANET.NET] Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 4:46 PM To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] slightly OT -- consensus I'd be tempted to join the anarchists if they would just get themselves organized. Does anyone remember Eric Frank Russell's novel, the title of which has slipped out of my mind (The Great Explosion??), which included a totally anarchic society which functioned on the MYOB principle, and repelled invaders by sheer passive resistance? I often wondered how they would have dealt with members who tried to impose their own viewpoint with violence. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:29:47 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Susan Hericks Subject: Re: SIX MOON DANCE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maryelizabeth asked> >Did you have a better experience with SINGER FROM THE SEA? > > Haven't read it yet. I usually enjoy Tepper alot but just found SMD mostly unengaging, with the possible exception of the judge character. Can't remember what she's called. Maybe I just read it at the wrong time. :) Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 07:44:30 +0000 Reply-To: edward.james@newscientist.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Edward James Subject: Re: slightly OT -- consensus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frances wrote: > I'd be tempted to join the anarchists if they would just get themselves > organized. > > Does anyone remember Eric Frank Russell's novel, the title of which has slipped > out of my mind (The Great Explosion??), which included a totally anarchic > society which functioned on the MYOB principle, and repelled invaders by sheer > passive resistance? I often wondered how they would have dealt with members who > tried to impose their own viewpoint with violence. > They ostracised them: refused to give them anything, and let them starve. The original short story was "...And Then There Were None", in Astounding 1954 sometime. [Warning: advert follows]. The British journal ANARCHIST STUDIES did a special Science Fiction issue at the end of 1999. I did the piece on Eric Frank Russell, using his papers (deposited with the Science Fiction Foundation Collection in Liverpool) as well as the stories. Edward James ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:16:46 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Ozark Trilogy (was: Good stuff coming out!) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Phoebe Wray wrote: > << Also, Suzette Haden Elgin's _Ozark Trilogy_ is being (re?)released in > March. >> > > THAT is good news. I found a copy at a used book store. I loved it. Is anyone interested in discussing the *Ozark Trilogy* or should I wait for the new edition to come out? The story is lots of fun with plenty of little touches that add something extra. > phoebe > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:16:56 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura M Quilter Subject: reading from THE ANNUNCIATE this weekend in philly Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:52:51 -0500 From: Suzanne Feldman To: FEMINISTSF-request@listserv.uic.edu Subject: request to post to list? Hi-- I get messages from the FFSF listserve (the BDG group), but I can't seem to post. If it's possible, could this message be put up today sometime? Thanks! Suze Feldman (Severna Park) Subject: Severna Park in Philly Hi folks, For those in the Philadelphia area, I'll be doing at reading from my Lammy-nominated novel, THE ANNUNCIATE on Saturday, Feb 26 at: Borders Book Shop, 1727 Walnut Street, Philadelphia The reading starts at 7:30 pm. In addition, I'd like to take this opportunity to ask those of you who are going to Worldcon to consider nominating the artist who did the painting for the cover of THE ANNUNCIATE, D.M. Bowers, for a Hugo Award. I think it would be wonderful for this artist to be recognized. If you haven't seen the cover, it's here. (thumbnail) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380977370/qid%3D951489507/104-4566343-0622026 (big picture) http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0380977370.01.LZZZZZZZ.gif Many thanks! Yours, Suze/Severna