From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thu Jul 12 20:20:43 2001 Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 07:39:54 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0004D" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 08:22:25 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Older people in SF Comments: To: feldsipe@erols.com Comments: cc: ocls@madisoncounty.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/20/0 1:28:28 PM, feldsipe@EROLS.COM writes: << I think the 'adventures of the elderly' are often percieved/presented as 'cuter' or more poigniant than younger folk who can breeze through dragon slaying or whatever without breaking a hip. >> Oh, pooh! The attitude of the writer would come to bear here, yes? Suzette Haden Elgin argued persuasively, nay passionately, at WisCon in 1999 for more elders in sff. Where are the wise women, she asked? And she has a good point. I don't agree with whomever said it on this list (sorry, can't find the email) that younger people "grow" and older people are "already there," or words to that effect. The interesting characters are always growing -- responding to circumstances and adapting. Elgin further made the point that she'd like to see some elders with their wrinkles described lovingly. Well, good old Honor Harrington is, in fact, old by normal standards, but then she's been on life-extension stuff and LOOKS young. But that's a cop-out. We hope that sff digs under the surface of mere appearance. Point is, older people figure things out differently, bring some wisdom (and one hopes, a dash of folly) to bear. That IS missing from sff in large measure. And these days, even in the real world, the person at the gym sitting next to you could be your grandmother. Sff is behind the times. Elgin said her piece last year -- sitting on a panel with Suzy Charnas and others -- saying older people ought to act their age, and sff writers ought to give older characters something to do. She looked sensational -- with her snowy hair, eyes alternately sparkling and glittering, a smile that lit up the room -- a beautiful woman who was wise and over sixty and gorgeous and articulate. I would trust her with a sword any day and wouldn't worry a bit about her hips. best wishes, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 10:24:13 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Bucci, Elizabeth" Subject: Vonarburg Mother's Country: Fertility as slavery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I recently finished Vonarburg's «In the Mother's Country » (which has been in my to-read pile for two years) and would like to post some thoughts on the novel. For me, this was a very thought-provoking novel...I can't stop thinking about it....and I hope to stimulate some discussion as I strive to understand the many interesting messages and themes in this novel. I was as fascinated by this fictional society as I was with Tepper's Woman's Country, which, even though I read four or five years ago, still haunts me. In both cases, I found the societies to be dystopic...ie, I wouldn't want to live in either Woman's Country or in Mother's Country. These, for me, were not ideal societies...far from it...What I found most poignant about Vonarburg's Mother's Country was the plight of the men. I found it sad that these men could not participate in the raising of their children, especially when they wanted to. However, before you think : « ah, the women are in control »...this too, is far from the truth. Lisbei's friend Freida at one point complains that, as a Red, she has no control over her feritility. She is forced to bear children, children which repeatedly do not survive or whose pregnancies do not come to term, even though, had she a choice, she would prefer not to. In fact, her best friend Ysande dies in childbirth, which only exacerbates her fears. It angered me that these women, simply because they were fertile, had only one purpose : walking wombs. This is a similar theme in Atwood's A Handmaid's Tale, which also awoke a similar emotion when I read this novel some 15 years ago : the Handmaid's one and only purpose in life is to bear children. And nothing more. As a mother of two children, it was during my pregnancy, which I found difficult (though it was a perfectly normal pregnancy), that I first developed a strong affinity for Pro-Choice stance on abortion (not that I want to get into this debate) simply because I found that being pregnant is...difficult, if not dangerous for some women. (You know, even today with modern medical technology, things go wrong and women die in childbirth.) In my case, I was pregnant by choice, it was planned, it was my decision, so everything I went through was all the more bearable because of this. I can only imagine how horrible it must be for women like the Atwood's Handmaids and Vonarburg's Ysande and Freida who are forced to go through this difficult experience against their will. In both novels, women are « walking wombs » and their desires/choices/needs are secondary to the primary function of reproduction. This is what makes Vonarburg's and Tepper's societies dystopic. Another thing that saddened me about Vonarburg's Mother's Country was the loss of the family unit. While I am more liberal than Dan Quayle in terms of the definition of the « family unit », I am a fan of some sort of parent/child family structure. Whether the parent is a single mother / father, a gay or a heterosexual couple is secondary : any or all of these models are more beneficial to the child, I feel, than the structure in Mother's Country, where children are sent to daycares to be raised by Greens, because it is too painful for mothers to watch ... is it 6 out of 8? of their children die in early childhood. So, after going through nine difficult months of watching your body being taken over by another entity, these mothers did not even get the pleasure of holding their newborn babies, nursing them, and watching them grow into children and adults. (This joy is the only thing that makes pregnancy worth it!) I feel that any of the family units that I have indicated earlier would be preferable to a permanent daycare where the child does not have a parental bond with any one particular adult, as is the case in Mother's Country. I felt a similar sadness in Tepper's Women's Country, although in this case there was some sort of a family unit (single mother / male servitor)...except that each mother had to give up their boys at five years old to hope that they would return at 16 through the Gateway to Women's Country. As a mother, I felt so much pain as I relived this horrible ritual with the main characters of Women's Country. In summary, the theme here is interesting. Fertility is a source of power...and yet a source of slavery. Lisbei, the main character in Mother's Country, is free because she is declared sterile at 16...lucky her! She gets to pursue an education, a career, a life, travels, whatever she wants. Had she been a Red (ie fertile) she would have been doomed to spend her life at Bethely, bearing one child every one or two years until she couldn't anymore. (I say « doomed » not because I have anything against childbirth...what angers/saddens me is being forced to bear children when it is not the woman's decision to do so.) In fact, Lisbei is secretly grateful that she is sterile, as this leaves her free to pursue a life. It is interesting that, in being sterile, Lisbei loses her status as the Mother of Bethely (ie the « mayor », if you will) but being the Mother is not necessarily a source of power...as it means that the Mother must stay at Bethely all of her life, mate with Males, and produce as many children as she can. Is this power...or slavery? Both Tepper and Vonarburg made me grateful for my life as it is today : I have two children (and only two, mine and my husband's choice, no one else's) and I have a career. Compared to the women of Bethely and of Women's Country, I have it all! My fertility has benefited me and my partner (and no one else) and has been controlled exclusively by me, and no one else. I am not a slave to my womb...my womb is mine, and I get to use it as I desire. Lucky lucky me... I have more thoughts on these novels...Vonarburg's was a very thought-provoking and fascinating novel, as was Tepper's Gateway to Women's Country. I just can't stop thinking about them (which is what literature is all about...)I would like to hear other's thoughts on this and explore other themes...in fact, I am only beginning... Looking forward to your comments, --Elisabeth. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:26:15 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: Vonarburg Mother's Country: Fertility as slavery In-Reply-To: <50886FDEDD99D31194F000508B55421A08A790@DDO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Elisabeth, I too am intrigued by both of these novels, and the others that are of the same pattern such as Pamela Sargent's _Shore of Women_. I also see other works such as Suzy McKee Charnas's four novels starting with _Walk to the End of the World_ through the most recent _The Conqueror's Child, and Joanna Russ's "When It Changed", and even Octavia Butler's _Xenogenisis_ Trilogy as being related to these because they all seem to be searching for answers related to how to preserve humanity from extinction, often it seems, of a self inflicted nature. I think one of the important things we need to remember as we are reading these books is that reproduction - childbearing - is a very important, serious issue for the characters in these books because in their worlds it is no longer easy to get pregnant and have a healthy child. Fertitlity is an issue and is controlled because most of the people who live in that world are not fertile. I also find these books interesting because most of them deal with women in leadership positions, women who are struggling to remake the world into a safe place for their descendants. I think that's one of the reasons why the plight of the men is important in Vonarburg's Book (mine is entitled _ The Maerland Chronicles_, but I know it is the same book, because I first read a different copy of it entitled _In the Mother's Land_ ). How to reintegrate men into productive life within the community is a difficult task for these women who have created their whole social structure in such a way as to prevent men from having any power. And I have gotten the impression as I have read the book that the premise is that men are held responsible for the existence of the badlands. The badlands are the result of the decisions men made when they were in power in the time before & during the decline, and even back before the Hives in the Harem period. These books are an example of possible ways women can recreate some kind of social order once they claim that responsibility for themselves. If anyone has read on through my ramblings to this point I have a question related to Vonarburg's book - does anyone know of a source through which I could get a copy of it in the original french? I believe the title is _Chroniques du pays des meres_ . I'd like to see the original french so I can compare some of the language / descriptions. That's one of the main things that struck me about the book the first time I read it. I really like all the feminine endings for all the nouns, and I am interested in seeing how it was done in the original. I did a search for the french title on Advanced Book Exchange, and through some of the other internet book sources, but I haven't found anything yet. Thank-you Elisabeth for starting this discussion. I too am looking forward to more comments from others and hope that others are interested. Rose Reith ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:55:48 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sheryl Curtis Subject: Re: Vonarburg Mother's Country: Fertility as slavery In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello: The French version of the book is indeed "Chroniques du Pays des mères" and it has been re-published by Alire. You can contact Alire at http://www.alire.com. I believe that cost of the book is about $17.00 Cdn. Sheryl Curtis Montreal > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Rose Reith > Sent: April 26, 2000 11:26 AM > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Vonarburg Mother's Country: Fertility as slavery > > > Elisabeth, > > I too am intrigued by both of these novels, and the others that are of the > same pattern such as Pamela Sargent's _Shore of Women_. I also see other > works such as Suzy McKee Charnas's four novels starting with _Walk to the > End of the World_ through the most recent _The Conqueror's Child, and > Joanna Russ's "When It Changed", and even Octavia Butler's _Xenogenisis_ > Trilogy as being related to these because they all seem to be > searching for > answers related to how to preserve humanity from extinction, often it > seems, of a self inflicted nature. I think one of the important things we > need to remember as we are reading these books is that reproduction - > childbearing - is a very important, serious issue for the characters in > these books because in their worlds it is no longer easy to get pregnant > and have a healthy child. Fertitlity is an issue and is controlled because > most of the people who live in that world are not fertile. > > I also find these books interesting because most of them deal > with women in > leadership positions, women who are struggling to remake the world into a > safe place for their descendants. I think that's one of the > reasons why the > plight of the men is important in Vonarburg's Book (mine is entitled _ The > Maerland Chronicles_, but I know it is the same book, because I first read > a different copy of it entitled _In the Mother's Land_ ). How to > reintegrate men into productive life within the community is a difficult > task for these women who have created their whole social structure in such > a way as to prevent men from having any power. And I have gotten the > impression as I have read the book that the premise is that men are held > responsible for the existence of the badlands. The badlands are the result > of the decisions men made when they were in power in the time before & > during the decline, and even back before the Hives in the Harem period. > These books are an example of possible ways women can recreate > some kind of > social order once they claim that responsibility for themselves. > > If anyone has read on through my ramblings to this point I have a question > related to Vonarburg's book - does anyone know of a source through which I > could get a copy of it in the original french? I believe the title is > _Chroniques du pays des meres_ . I'd like to see the original french so I > can compare some of the language / descriptions. That's one of the main > things that struck me about the book the first time I read it. I really > like all the feminine endings for all the nouns, and I am interested in > seeing how it was done in the original. I did a search for the > french title > on Advanced Book Exchange, and through some of the other internet book > sources, but I haven't found anything yet. > > Thank-you Elisabeth for starting this discussion. I too am looking forward > to more comments from others and hope that others are interested. > > Rose Reith > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:23:00 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: Vonarburg Mother's Country: Fertility as slavery In-Reply-To: <000101bfaf97$e4094b00$0bedfea9@sher> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Sheryl, Thank-you for that information. I'm going to see if I can order the book right now. Rose 8-) >Hello: > >The French version of the book is indeed "Chroniques du Pays des mères" and >it has been re-published by Alire. You can contact Alire at >http://www.alire.com. I believe that cost of the book is about $17.00 Cdn. > >Sheryl Curtis >Montreal > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC >> [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Rose Reith >> Sent: April 26, 2000 11:26 AM >> To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >> Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Vonarburg Mother's Country: Fertility as slavery >> >> >> Elisabeth, >> >> I too am intrigued by both of these novels, and the others that are of the >> same pattern such as Pamela Sargent's _Shore of Women_. I also see other >> works such as Suzy McKee Charnas's four novels starting with _Walk to the >> End of the World_ through the most recent _The Conqueror's Child, and >> Joanna Russ's "When It Changed", and even Octavia Butler's _Xenogenisis_ >> Trilogy as being related to these because they all seem to be >> searching for >> answers related to how to preserve humanity from extinction, often it >> seems, of a self inflicted nature. I think one of the important things we >> need to remember as we are reading these books is that reproduction - >> childbearing - is a very important, serious issue for the characters in >> these books because in their worlds it is no longer easy to get pregnant >> and have a healthy child. Fertitlity is an issue and is controlled because >> most of the people who live in that world are not fertile. >> >> I also find these books interesting because most of them deal >> with women in >> leadership positions, women who are struggling to remake the world into a >> safe place for their descendants. I think that's one of the >> reasons why the >> plight of the men is important in Vonarburg's Book (mine is entitled _ The >> Maerland Chronicles_, but I know it is the same book, because I first read >> a different copy of it entitled _In the Mother's Land_ ). How to >> reintegrate men into productive life within the community is a difficult >> task for these women who have created their whole social structure in such >> a way as to prevent men from having any power. And I have gotten the >> impression as I have read the book that the premise is that men are held >> responsible for the existence of the badlands. The badlands are the result >> of the decisions men made when they were in power in the time before & >> during the decline, and even back before the Hives in the Harem period. >> These books are an example of possible ways women can recreate >> some kind of >> social order once they claim that responsibility for themselves. >> >> If anyone has read on through my ramblings to this point I have a question >> related to Vonarburg's book - does anyone know of a source through which I >> could get a copy of it in the original french? I believe the title is >> _Chroniques du pays des meres_ . I'd like to see the original french so I >> can compare some of the language / descriptions. That's one of the main >> things that struck me about the book the first time I read it. I really >> like all the feminine endings for all the nouns, and I am interested in >> seeing how it was done in the original. I did a search for the >> french title >> on Advanced Book Exchange, and through some of the other internet book >> sources, but I haven't found anything yet. >> >> Thank-you Elisabeth for starting this discussion. I too am looking forward >> to more comments from others and hope that others are interested. >> >> Rose Reith >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:48:06 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Bucci, Elizabeth" Subject: Vonarburg Mother's Country French version MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In response to Rose's post, the version I read was the original French language version. It was interesting to note that all nouns were « feminized », for example, « child » in French is « enfant », which is masculine, while Vonarburg wrote « enfante », a feminine version of the noun that she invented. Furthermore, certain grammatical conventions were deliberately not followed by Vonarburg. For example, the third person plural was « elles » for a large group of both men and women (and even men), while in current French « ils » or the maculine form is used for a group containing both sexes. When the agreement was done between the subject and verb (done for verbs conjugated with « être », the feminine form was always used, even if a man was speaking. I found it awkward to read at times...it challenged my command of the French language. However, it was one of the things that delighted me the most about the book : Vonarburg use of language and grammar communicates her vision of this futuristic society as being dominated by women. (It also pointed out how sexist the French language is...which I already knew anyway! :-)) It was for this reason that I went out of my way to read the French copy...I am curious to know how such a technique could be translated into English, a language for which gender (of nouns) is not a grammatical issue...! Any comments regarding the English version? --Elisabeth. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:29:39 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: HScott/PAronoff Subject: Re: Vonarburg Mother's Country: Fertility as slavery In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sheryl beat to the punch on _Chroniques du pays des mères_ It was republished in 1999 by Éditions Alire: http://www.alire.com but I want to mention that there's a volume of her short fiction scheduled to come out soon from Tesseract Books in Edmonton, Alberta, much of it translated by yours truly. I'm also currently working on the first volume of her (five-book) Tyranaël series. It's also available in French from Alire. Howard Scott At 11:26 AM 26/04/2000 -0400, you wrote: >If anyone has read on through my ramblings to this point I have a question >related to Vonarburg's book - does anyone know of a source through which I >could get a copy of it in the original french? I believe the title is >_Chroniques du pays des meres_ . I'd like to see the original french so I > >Rose Reith > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:50:23 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: Vonarburg Mother's Country French version In-Reply-To: <50886FDEDD99D31194F000508B55421A08A792@DDO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Elisabeth, That's exactly what I noticed and was referring to at the end of my first post. I figured that it would be easier to do in french where the articles correspond to the gender of the word. In english the translator, Jane Brierley, had most of the nouns end in -a to signify that they referred primarily to women, so for example the small children were "mostas" (for that _almost_ but not quite counted as people yet feeling) or they were "babies" "childreen" or an individual one was a "childe", even the boys like Garrec and Turri were mostas except when the gardianas called them boys. I especially like the names of the various workers - actually "workas" such as gardianas - who work with the children - the mostas, and the doctor is a "medicina", the Mother of Betheley is a "capta", and people who go out to search the various ruins were "exploras" and "researchas", close friends/ lovers are "compagnas", etc... Horses are "cavalas", sheep are "ovinas" All the names of the seasons and the months were changed to have feminine endings "sprinna", "wintra", "decemra" "septemra" Also she used the -ie ending for words to make them feminine - for example Bethely was a "capterie". There are lots more examples, but I am sure you get the idea. Because english uses "they" for the third person plural she isn't able to show a whole group as being viewed as primarily female, rather than primarily male, which must have presented a bit of a stumbling block reading it in French. I can see where that would have come up quite a bit in the sections where Lisbei is studying in Wardenburg in a mixed group, and when they are out exploring. I think that feminizing the language is very important in this book because that would be one of the significant ways this novel is written and positioned differently from most science fiction by male authors. Anyway, the use of language was what made the book stand out for me also when I first read it. I am just finishing it again for the second time after a lapse of a few years, and this time I am seeing more of the thought that went into the issues concerning the men and their place in Maerlande. Rose >In response to Rose's post, the version I read was the original French >language version. It was interesting to note that all nouns were « >feminized », for example, « child » in French is « enfant », which is >masculine, while Vonarburg wrote « enfante », a feminine version of the noun >that she invented. Furthermore, certain grammatical conventions were >deliberately not followed by Vonarburg. For example, the third person >plural was « elles » for a large group of both men and women (and even men), >while in current French « ils » or the maculine form is used for a group >containing both sexes. When the agreement was done between the subject and >verb (done for verbs conjugated with « être », the feminine form was always >used, even if a man was speaking. I found it awkward to read at times...it >challenged my command of the French language. However, it was one of the >things that delighted me the most about the book : Vonarburg use of >language and grammar communicates her vision of this futuristic society as >being dominated by women. (It also pointed out how sexist the French >language is...which I already knew anyway! :-)) > >It was for this reason that I went out of my way to read the French copy...I >am curious to know how such a technique could be translated into English, a >language for which gender (of nouns) is not a grammatical issue...! Any >comments regarding the English version? > >--Elisabeth. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:19:37 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Cynthia Gonsalves Subject: Re: Older people in SF In-Reply-To: <4.2bef512.2632f381@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:22 AM 4/22/2000 -0400, Phoebe wrote: >Suzette Haden Elgin argued persuasively, nay passionately, at WisCon in 1999 >for more elders in sff. Where are the wise women, she asked? And she has a >good point. Ah, you were there too! That was a fabulous talk. We get lots of images of the Maiden and the Mother and even the Warrior, but the Crones seem to be hiding. >Elgin further made the point that she'd like to see some elders with their >wrinkles described lovingly. Well, good old Honor Harrington is, in fact, >old by normal standards, but then she's been on life-extension stuff and >LOOKS young. But that's a cop-out. We hope that sff digs under the surface >of mere appearance. Weber stretches my tolerance to the elastic breaking point when he makes Honor look like a teenager/twentysomething and emphasizes it many times in book after book after book (enough already!). It might be some wish-fulfillment on his part, but frankly, I would have been delighted to see her kick butt looking a bit older (like maybe thirty or fortysomething, but then I'm hitting 40 in August and am a bit biased). Besides the exaggerated youthfulness, I don't think we've truly gotten a good exploration of the impact of prolong in the HH series to date. Of course, that isn't the primary goal of those books, but still, a bit of thought stretching might go nicely with all those booms. >Point is, older people figure things out differently, bring some wisdom (and >one hopes, a dash of folly) to bear. That IS missing from sff in large >measure. And these days, even in the real world, the person at the gym >sitting next to you could be your grandmother. Sff is behind the times. As are many of the other media! >Elgin said her piece last year -- sitting on a panel with Suzy Charnas and >others -- saying older people ought to act their age, and sff writers ought >to give older characters something to do. She looked sensational -- with her >snowy hair, eyes alternately sparkling and glittering, a smile that lit up >the room -- a beautiful woman who was wise and over sixty and gorgeous and >articulate. I would trust her with a sword any day and wouldn't worry a bit >about her hips. I only hope that I can age as well as she has. Check with me in twenty-five years (goddess willing) and see if I pull it off. Cynthia -- "I had to be a bitch, they wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." -Joan Gant in Matt Ruff's Sewer, Gas, and Electric Sharks Bite!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 19:29:05 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: BDG Remnant Population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BAD0F2C8EC9541AEE0E247A2" --------------BAD0F2C8EC9541AEE0E247A2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just finished Remnant Population last week. Thank you to whoever nominated this book. I really enjoyed it. Like a lot of SF, the writing was a bit flat, and as others have pointed out, many of the characters are two dimensional. I've reconciled that by looking at the language and stereotypical characterization as part of the allegorical package. That said, I have to agree with everyone, Ofelia was terrific. I even had dreams about her. I love it when that happens with a book. I loved her clothes and necklaces-- the way she must have looked walking toward the spaceship when if first landed! I love that image. I also liked how she loved food and cooking and how important manners were to her-- common human decency, which seemed so little to ask, but was so lacking. (hey, I can relate.) I also thought the POV shifts between the indegenes and Ofelia's POV were very strange (good-strange) and effective. I thought that the stereotypical academics were drawn unkindly in order to heighten Moon's point-- that even among the "enlightened" an elderly woman is often seen as just a "grandma" and not really who she is at all. I also thought this background of multinational colonization-- as humans as commodities (being shipped in cryo like natural resources would be, etc.) was effective, and given this context the unenlightened scientists make sense. Moon seems to be harkening back to the beginnings of anthropological science-- which often served to expedite colonial endeavors. Thanks again, I loved the book. --Allyson --------------BAD0F2C8EC9541AEE0E247A2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just finished Remnant Population last week.  Thank you to whoever nominated this book.  I really enjoyed it.

Like a lot of SF, the writing was a bit flat, and as others have pointed out, many of the characters are two dimensional.  I've reconciled that by looking at the language and stereotypical characterization as part of the allegorical package.

That said, I have to agree with everyone, Ofelia was terrific.  I even had dreams about her.  I love it when that happens with a book. I loved her clothes and necklaces-- the way she must have looked walking toward the spaceship when if first landed!  I love that image.  I also liked how she loved food and cooking and how important manners were to her-- common human decency, which seemed so little to ask, but was so lacking.  (hey, I can relate.)

I also thought the POV shifts between the indegenes and Ofelia's POV were very strange (good-strange) and effective.

I thought that the stereotypical academics were drawn unkindly in order to heighten Moon's point-- that even among the "enlightened" an elderly woman is often seen as just a "grandma" and not really who she is at all.

I also thought this background of multinational colonization-- as humans as commodities (being shipped in cryo like natural resources would be, etc.) was effective, and given this context the unenlightened scientists make sense.  Moon seems to be harkening back to the beginnings of anthropological science-- which often served to expedite colonial endeavors.

Thanks again, I loved the book.
--Allyson
 
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