From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thu Jul 12 20:27:26 2001 Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 07:39:54 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0005C" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:33:37 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Glenda Alexander Subject: Imago, Octavia Butler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been lurking to see what sort of things are discussed here before I post anything, but so far it seems that very little is posted at all. So I am going to plunge on in, and see what happens. I just finished reading Imago, by Octavia Butler. I have not read any of her other works. This is a fascinating and creepy book. I like the premise that humans have a genetic defect that leads them to arrange one another in hierarchies and use the hierarchies to justify destructive behavior. I have often wondered about that myself. Then there's the pathetic hope that people sometimes express that humankind will be saved from ourselves by benevolent invaders from outer space. Unlike the invaders in the film Independence Day, Butler's Oankali are just such benevolent invaders, but are they benign? The Oankali are loving and nurturing and I found myself as involved with the main character, a human-Oankali combination, as a reader should be with a main character. But occasionally, when Jodahs was lusting after the humans Jesusa and Tomas, I had a creepy feeling that for all the benefits it--called "it" as a third gender person--offered them, they were giving away more self-determination than anyone ever should. The author is really skillful in getting the reader to accept the Oankali behavior and at the same time wonder whether it is right. Like, how can you not love someone who feeds you, gives you pleasure, protects you, heals you and loves you unconditionally, who always seems to do what is best for you? Like the best mother, lover, and hero combined. It could make you wonder if the human insistence on self-dominance is somehow as wrong as the insistence on dominating other people. Humans are not allowed to reproduce with the genetic defect that leads them to kill other people--is this a bad thing? They are allowed to live independently of the Oankali--on another planet on which they cannot live outside protective structures, while the Oankali suck the Earth's resources dry. Or they can mate with the Oankali and produce offspring that are a blend of the two peoples, while living without disease or permanent injury for centuries. If you look for metaphors here, you don't find simple ones. Human beings have suffered a lot of invasions by other humans who consider themselves benevolent and who bring some real benefits to the people they invade. Would I like to live the way my Native American ancestors lived--as nearly as I can figure out how that was? No. Do I think that my European ancestors who came and took their culture as well as their land from them did the right thing? No. And you don't have to be invaded to be dominated--having experienced the "benevolent" dominance of adults as a child, I would not go back to childhood for anything, even if it was possible. God forbid. There is a lot of food for thought in Imago, but the flavors are complex. Another theme I enjoyed was the idea of a third gender, or a non-gender, and the revealing havoc it creates with language. Can anyone recommend a Butler book to read next? The other parts of the trilogy, or something newer? Glenda ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:54:26 -0700 Reply-To: Jo Ann Rangel Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Imago, Octavia Butler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry this took so long to get back with you, I was resorting my stacks of paperbacks I have in my frontroom...I clipped the reviews link from Laura's webpage to paste here: http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/authorsa.html#butler This link is her reviews of the works by Butler, a very good introduction to anyone who has not read her work before. I did my summer research on Butler's Parable back in 1997, and part of my introduction to her was reading what I could get my hands on...now the most exciting book for me to read was Wild Seed, because of the structure and the characters, in particular, the creation of a female character that has her own sense of power to be totally free of any constraints society of her time may place upon her(as in she can change into any form of animal she desires, and the one person who holds the perverbial "leash" over her realizes he would need to do something drastic to keep control over her). Although I enjoyed reading her triology, am trying to remember one of the endings of the books left me with a sense of despair that the character did not survive, but then maybe that was my mood that day...I remember reading Rand's Anthem and throwing it across the room when the main character gets within reach of her freedom then dies, end of book---that made me react so negatively I was rooting for her to make it so badly then when she didnt it was like dang that really sucked...of course am sure I am missing an important lesson about giving your life up as long as in the end you possess your freedom, at the time though that didn't register, grin. Jo Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenda Alexander" To: Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 9:33 AM Subject: [*FSF-L*] Imago, Octavia Butler > I have been lurking to see what sort of things are discussed here before I > post anything, but so far it seems that very little is posted at all. So I > am going to plunge on in, and see what happens. I just finished reading > Imago, by Octavia Butler. I have not read any of her other works. > > This is a fascinating and creepy book. I like the premise that humans have a > genetic defect that leads them to arrange one another in hierarchies and use > the hierarchies to justify destructive behavior. I have often wondered about > that myself. Then there's the pathetic hope that people sometimes express > that humankind will be saved from ourselves by benevolent invaders from outer > space. Unlike the invaders in the film Independence Day, Butler's Oankali > are just such benevolent invaders, but are they benign? The Oankali are > loving and nurturing and I found myself as involved with the main character, > a human-Oankali combination, as a reader should be with a main character. > But occasionally, when Jodahs was lusting after the humans Jesusa and Tomas, > I had a creepy feeling that for all the benefits it--called "it" as a third > gender person--offered them, they were giving away more self-determination > than anyone ever should. The author is really skillful in getting the reader > to accept the Oankali behavior and at the same time wonder whether it is > right. Like, how can you not love someone who feeds you, gives you pleasure, > protects you, heals you and loves you unconditionally, who always seems to do > what is best for you? Like the best mother, lover, and hero combined. It > could make you wonder if the human insistence on self-dominance is somehow as > wrong as the insistence on dominating other people. Humans are not allowed > to reproduce with the genetic defect that leads them to kill other people--is > this a bad thing? They are allowed to live independently of the Oankali--on > another planet on which they cannot live outside protective structures, while > the Oankali suck the Earth's resources dry. Or they can mate with the > Oankali and produce offspring that are a blend of the two peoples, while > living without disease or permanent injury for centuries. > > If you look for metaphors here, you don't find simple ones. Human beings > have suffered a lot of invasions by other humans who consider themselves > benevolent and who bring some real benefits to the people they invade. Would > I like to live the way my Native American ancestors lived--as nearly as I can > figure out how that was? No. Do I think that my European ancestors who came > and took their culture as well as their land from them did the right thing? > No. And you don't have to be invaded to be dominated--having experienced the > "benevolent" dominance of adults as a child, I would not go back to childhood > for anything, even if it was possible. God forbid. There is a lot of food > for thought in Imago, but the flavors are complex. Another theme I enjoyed > was the idea of a third gender, or a non-gender, and the revealing havoc it > creates with language. > > Can anyone recommend a Butler book to read next? The other parts of the > trilogy, or something newer? > > Glenda > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:00:39 -0400 Reply-To: Amy Harlib Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Imago, Octavia Butler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Butler is a BRILLIANT writer! And a rarity---an African-American woman SF author who also is the only SF writer to win a MacArthur Fellowship Genius Award. Please read the rest of the Xenogenesis trilogy, then go on to the Patternist series, the short stories collected in Bloodchild, then the near future-extrapolations, Parable of the Sower and Parable of the Talents. Patternist books: Clay's Ark (a prequel to the rest), Patternmaster, Mind of My Mind, Wild Seed. Also a standalone, Survivor (hard to find). Butler is one of my favorite writers. Amy > I have been lurking to see what sort of things are discussed here before I > post anything, but so far it seems that very little is posted at all. So I > am going to plunge on in, and see what happens. I just finished reading > Imago, by Octavia Butler. I have not read any of her other works. > > This is a fascinating and creepy book. I like the premise that humans have a > genetic defect that leads them to arrange one another in hierarchies and use > the hierarchies to justify destructive behavior. I have often wondered about > that myself. Then there's the pathetic hope that people sometimes express > that humankind will be saved from ourselves by benevolent invaders from outer > space. Unlike the invaders in the film Independence Day, Butler's Oankali > are just such benevolent invaders, but are they benign? The Oankali are > loving and nurturing and I found myself as involved with the main character, > a human-Oankali combination, as a reader should be with a main character. > But occasionally, when Jodahs was lusting after the humans Jesusa and Tomas, > I had a creepy feeling that for all the benefits it--called "it" as a third > gender person--offered them, they were giving away more self-determination > than anyone ever should. The author is really skillful in getting the reader > to accept the Oankali behavior and at the same time wonder whether it is > right. Like, how can you not love someone who feeds you, gives you pleasure, > protects you, heals you and loves you unconditionally, who always seems to do > what is best for you? Like the best mother, lover, and hero combined. It > could make you wonder if the human insistence on self-dominance is somehow as > wrong as the insistence on dominating other people. Humans are not allowed > to reproduce with the genetic defect that leads them to kill other people--is > this a bad thing? They are allowed to live independently of the Oankali--on > another planet on which they cannot live outside protective structures, while > the Oankali suck the Earth's resources dry. Or they can mate with the > Oankali and produce offspring that are a blend of the two peoples, while > living without disease or permanent injury for centuries. > > If you look for metaphors here, you don't find simple ones. Human beings > have suffered a lot of invasions by other humans who consider themselves > benevolent and who bring some real benefits to the people they invade. Would > I like to live the way my Native American ancestors lived--as nearly as I can > figure out how that was? No. Do I think that my European ancestors who came > and took their culture as well as their land from them did the right thing? > No. And you don't have to be invaded to be dominated--having experienced the > "benevolent" dominance of adults as a child, I would not go back to childhood > for anything, even if it was possible. God forbid. There is a lot of food > for thought in Imago, but the flavors are complex. Another theme I enjoyed > was the idea of a third gender, or a non-gender, and the revealing havoc it > creates with language. > > Can anyone recommend a Butler book to read next? The other parts of the > trilogy, or something newer? > > Glenda > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:58:54 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: Imago, Octavia Butler Comments: To: Amy Harlib MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What about _Kindred_? I have this one but haven't read it yet. What do the list members think about it? Although some bookstores keep in the SF section, others are treating it as "literature," and it seems like the book that more traditionally-inclined audiences are willing to accept as "good writing." I love her writing, too, and have so far read the Xenogenesis trilogy and Parable of the Sower (which is my favorite so far). Sheryl - >Butler is a BRILLIANT writer! And a rarity---an African-American woman SF >author who also is the only SF writer to win a MacArthur Fellowship Genius >Award. Please read the rest of the Xenogenesis trilogy, then go on to the >Patternist series, the short stories collected in Bloodchild, then the near >future-extrapolations, Parable of the Sower and Parable of the Talents. >Patternist books: Clay's Ark (a prequel to the rest), Patternmaster, Mind of >My Mind, Wild Seed. >Also a standalone, Survivor (hard to find). >Butler is one of my favorite writers. Amy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:47:42 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: Imago, Octavia Butler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > What about _Kindred_? I just read this a couple of weeks ago. I've also read her Patternist and Xenogenesis series, and _Kindred_ is definitely different. I enjoy all of her work that I've read. _Kindred_ is powerful. It could be much more graphic, I think, but it certainly doesn't need to be, and I think I wouldn't have enjoyed it as much. Hmm.. "enjoy" is an interesting word choice on my part. I love a good story, and _Kindred_ is definitely that. It bothered me, though, and made me sad, angry, upset and a whole host of things that I wouldn't exactly describe as "enjoy"... As a WASP-ish male, I greatly appreciated the main character's husband being there and being drawn the way that he was. I would have appreciated a character like him (one that I could at least partially identify with) in Xenogenesis. -allen ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:02:42 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: Imago, Octavia Butler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, I would agree that Butler doesn't spend a whole lot of time drawing sympathetic male characters. In Xenogenesis, though, you could look at the combination of Akin and Joseph as male savior/hero figures. I don't know if a person could "identify" with them as such, though, since Akin is not fully human. And I guess Joseph tends to hang back and follow Lilith's lead. > >As a WASP-ish male, I greatly appreciated the main character's husband >being there and being drawn the way that he was. I would have >appreciated a character like him (one that I could at least partially >identify with) in Xenogenesis. > >-allen > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:32:35 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: Imago, Octavia Butler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Yeah, I would agree that Butler doesn't spend a whole lot of time drawing > sympathetic male characters. "Male" isn't really important, per se. In _Kindred_, "white" was. Perhaps "white" only because "white" was the outsider to the slaves. I really wanted some reassurance that: 1) "White" does not mean evil/abuser/etc., and 2) People outside the system can empathize to at least some extent (acknowledging that they can't fully) and be appreciated for that. "Male" would probably be important to me if all men were being colored as evil with broad strokes. "Female" would be important to me if all women were being colored as evil with broad strokes. Admittedly, it would probably not be quite so personal. ;-) Probably one of the reasons that I like Butler's work is that she (at least her writing persona ;-) and I seem to be very different and it's interesting to see what choices she makes. I remember being very frustrated with Lilith's choices... -allen ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:58:50 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: KINDRED In-Reply-To: <20000516104741.A25305@canolog.ninthwonder.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A note regarding Butler's KINDRED I've taught the book in the last two semesters in my multiethnic American (popular culture) literature class: student response is about 99% positive, unlike ANY other work I've ever taught, I think. Students read it early, before it's due, read it several times, cannot put it down, report with amazement staying up all night reading becuase they CANNOT put it down and want to know what's happening, generally react in a way TOTALLY unlike most student react in a sophomore level literature class (that's a general requirement, not made up of all English majors). Not only do I love it, I can say that probably forty or more students would highly recommend it based on what they posted on the class listserv! Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:31:59 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: Imago, Octavia Butler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glenda It would seem that, as a newcomer, you have unknowingly hit on the topic most likely to spark this list into overdrive. One of Butler's books was discussed in the BDG a few months back, and it got people going - in one of two opposite directions. I'm afraid I fall into the other party to the views expressed so far. Her work irritates me to the point that I am yet to get beyond chapter three of any of her books; but I do feel that I should, if only to be able to criticise from a position of knowledge. 'Bloodchild' has been mentioned as a collection of her short stories; perhaps I should try reading this. If I can get to the end of something she has written, maybe the payback will be enough to motivate me through her longer works. Jane ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:40:11 +1200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jenny Rankine Subject: Butler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFBF76.EE482220" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFBF76.EE482220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" One of the interesting things in the Bloodchild story collection, which I bought recently, was that in one of her accompanying essays Butler explicity rejects biological determinist approaches to human behaviour. However, along with many people on this list, I get strong messages from her Imago trilogy books in particular that humanity is hard-wired into hierarchy and dominance patterns of interaction. Has anyone else who's read the Bloodchild stories noticed this? Someone else may have said this, but I just thought of a similarity between Tepper and Butler's Imago trilogy. An alien or supernatural entity has to rescue humanity from our self-induced planet-wide destruction because of this constant impulse in us to fight each other and destroy the environment. If a story's premise is built on some sort of biological template which always leads us in destructive directions, then a god in the machine is the only way out. Jenny Rankine (who doesn't believe in biological hardwiring of any sort) ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFBF76.EE482220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Butler

One of the = interesting things in the Bloodchild story collection, which I bought = recently, was that in one of her accompanying essays Butler explicity = rejects biological determinist approaches to human behaviour.  =

However, along with = many people on this list, I get strong messages from her Imago trilogy = books in particular that humanity is hard-wired into hierarchy and = dominance patterns of interaction.

Has anyone else = who's read the Bloodchild stories noticed this?  Someone else may = have said this, but I just thought of a similarity between Tepper and = Butler's Imago trilogy.  An alien or supernatural entity has to = rescue humanity from our self-induced planet-wide destruction because = of this constant impulse in us to fight each other and destroy the = environment.  If a story's premise is built on some sort of = biological template which always leads us in destructive directions, = then a god in the machine is the only way out.

Jenny Rankine
(who doesn't = believe in biological hardwiring of any sort)

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFBF76.EE482220-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 14:06:44 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: Butler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jenny wrote <> Maybe this is where I start to have trouble with Butler - her believing that it is valid to criticise the human mind as something that is outside nature. Most canines are hard-wired into hierarchical structures - far more so than humans. Would it be possible to present aliens as benign if they wanted to genetically alter wolves to act like pumas? Jane (who is happy to put 95% of human behaviour down to biological hardwiring) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:02:54 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Glenda Alexander Subject: Octavia Butler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just went to the library and checked out Dawn and Bloodchild. I had read a shorter version of the story Bloodchild in Women of Wonder, and noticed the similar theme to Imago, superior aliens saving self-destructive human-kind, enslaving as well as seducing them. In Butler's notes in the short story collection, she said she was amazed that people think the story is about slavery. I'm sure it isn't _about_ slavery itself, but when I read it I can't help thinking about any relationship in which one member is clearly dominant, even if there is real affection and attraction between the two. Parent and child is probably the primary one, the first unequal relationship we experience. The Tlic obviously need humans to reproduce themselves, but they are obviously more powerful, too. Butler said it was meant to be a "pregnant man" story. If men were less physically strong, on the average, than women, and women had a greater share of economic power, and a man witnessed a childbirth complete with blood, tearing flesh, labor pains and all, how would he feel about a woman asking him to have her baby? How loved would he feel? How would he have to feel about her to say yes? Or to do it without being forced in some way? What I love most about speculative fiction is that it makes you see real situations more clearly by creating fantastic ones. Perhaps truth is really stranger than fiction, and perhaps that is why it is harder to talk--or write--about. Glenda ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:28:49 +1200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jenny Rankine Subject: [FSSF-L] Butler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFC03E.82AAA480" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFC03E.82AAA480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jane Fletcher wrote- Maybe this is where I start to have trouble with Butler - her believing that it is valid to criticise the human mind as something that is outside nature. Most canines are hard-wired into hierarchical structures - far more so than humans. Would it be possible to present aliens as benign if they wanted to genetically alter wolves to act like pumas? The way I see it, "nature" is a cultural construct, which has been = perceived very differently by scientists and lay people even during the last 100 years, let alone the previous several hundred. Primates express a wide range of hierarchical and non-hierarchical societies, about which = other people on this list know much more than I. I don't think I agree with Jane that Butler criticises the human mind = as outside nature. I guess it's because I take her assumptions of human hardwiring as a background assumption for her universe. My I focus in = my reading on on the ways her characters and groups maintain as much = autonomy as possible when they have less power than the other character or = group. Jenny Rankine =A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA= =B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0` ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFC03E.82AAA480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [FSSF-L] Butler

Jane Fletcher = wrote-

    Maybe this is where = I start to have trouble with Butler - her believing that
    it is valid to = criticise the human mind as something that is outside nature.

    Most canines are = hard-wired into hierarchical structures - far more so than
    humans. Would it be = possible to present aliens as benign if they wanted to
    genetically alter = wolves to act like pumas?

The way I see it, = "nature" is a cultural construct, which has been perceived = very differently by scientists and lay people even during the last 100 = years, let alone the previous several hundred.  Primates express a = wide range of hierarchical  and non-hierarchical societies, about = which other people on this list know much more than I.

I don't think I = agree with Jane that Butler criticises the human mind as outside = nature.  I guess it's because I take her assumptions of human = hardwiring as a background assumption for her universe. My I focus in = my reading on on the ways her characters and groups maintain as much = autonomy as possible when they have less power than the other character = or group.

Jenny Rankine

=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8= =B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFC03E.82AAA480-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:44:58 +0200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Castiello=20Restituta?= Subject: Re: Butler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Jenny Rankine wrote One of the interesting things in the Bloodchild > story collection, which I > bought recently, was that in one of her accompanying > essays Butler explicity > rejects biological determinist approaches to human > behaviour. Well, I don't know if Ms Butler affirms such a thing in one of her essays. Surely I think she demonstrates to believe in biological determinism in Xenogenesis. In Dawn humans are explicitly said to have a "fatal flaw" i.e. two mismatched genes that make them dangerously intelligent and hierarchical. What I think is very disrupting in her thaught is that she leads us to realise that this world is not "the best of the possible worlds". In a sense she is saying that God makes mistakes and that anything "natural" is not necessarily "good" Sorry for my awful English... Restituta ______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:37:41 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Glenda Alexander Subject: Re: Butler on the human mind MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jenny wrote: << I don't think I agree with Jane that Butler criticises the human mind = as outside nature. I guess it's because I take her assumptions of human hardwiring as a background assumption for her universe. My I focus in = my reading on on the ways her characters and groups maintain as much = autonomy as possible when they have less power than the other character or = group.>> I also don't see Butler as placing the human mind outside nature--in fact, the first thing I noticed in Imago was that she makes a genetic excuse for what I consider the most troubling aspect of human behavior, our attempts to dominate other human beings as well as other forms of life by naming some as superior and others inferior. If that's not a mind game, then what is? Glenda ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 06:42:16 PDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: Octavia Butler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:02:54 EDT >From: Glenda Alexander >Subject: Octavia Butler > >I just went to the library and checked out Dawn and Bloodchild. I had read >a >shorter version of the story Bloodchild in Women of Wonder, and noticed the >similar theme to Imago, superior aliens saving self-destructive human-kind, >enslaving as well as seducing them. In Butler's notes in the short story >collection, she said she was amazed that people think the story is about >slavery. I'm sure it isn't _about_ slavery itself, but when I read it I >can't help thinking about any relationship in which one member is clearly >dominant, even if there is real affection and attraction between the two. >Parent and child is probably the primary one, the first unequal >relationship >we experience. The Tlic obviously need humans to reproduce themselves, but >they are obviously more powerful, too. Butler said it was meant to be a >"pregnant man" story. If men were less physically strong, on the average, >than women, and women had a greater share of economic power, and a man >witnessed a childbirth complete with blood, tearing flesh, labor pains and >all, how would he feel about a woman asking him to have her baby? How >loved >would he feel? How would he have to feel about her to say yes? Or to do >it >without being forced in some way? Of course, the wormy-looking aliens don't have a million years of biological and cultural evolution on their side. Danny ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:34:02 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: Octavia Butler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If men were less physically strong, on the average, >>than women, and women had a greater share of economic power, and a man >>witnessed a childbirth complete with blood, tearing flesh, labor pains and >>all, how would he feel about a woman asking him to have her baby? How >>loved >>would he feel? How would he have to feel about her to say yes? Or to do >>it >>without being forced in some way? >Of course, the wormy-looking aliens don't have a million years of >biological and cultural evolution on their side. > >Danny > Also, consider that in "Bloodchild," the babies don't belong to the humans and don't carry any human genetic material. The human males do nothing but incubate them. I think the analogy to pregnancy in human women falls down a bit here. (of course, Aristotle would disagree, but hey. He's dead) Sheryl ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:34:48 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: eva piccininni Subject: salon article on gorean online role-playing In-Reply-To: <20000516104741.A25305@canolog.ninthwonder.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2000/05/18/gor/index.html i've heard of them before, but i've never read any of the gor books, and i was totally unaware of their plot. how utterly ridiculous...and sad. -> eva ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:39:12 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Octavia Butler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed If you're in the Bay Area, I heard this morning that there'll be an interview with Octavia Butler on KQED, 88.5FM, at noon PDT (that is, in about two hours). They may broadcast it on their website, too. I couldn't find anything there, but maybe you'll have better luck. Also, browsing around on the site I found "Beyond 2000", http://www.kqed.com/fm/programs/beyond2000.html, which is a series of audio plays based on science fiction stories. (Maybe they're just read aloud? I don't know.) They have already broadcast stories by Ursula K. LeGuin and Connie Willis, but you might be able to get tapes or hear them on their website if you're interested. Jessie ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:13:27 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Gor stuff: Piccininni MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've noted this before, but...several booksellers have told me most of the audience they've sold the GOR novels to is female. (Those seeking purer sexual sadism can find less self-censored stuff, including at least some of the bodice-busting romances aimed presumably at women readers and more in vogue a decade ago than now.) -----Original Message----- From: eva piccininni [mailto:epiccini@EECS.UMICH.EDU] http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2000/05/18/gor/index.html i've heard of them before, but i've never read any of the gor books, and i was totally unaware of their plot. how utterly ridiculous...and sad. -> eva ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:05:33 -0700 Reply-To: Jo Ann Rangel Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Gor stuff: Piccininni MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I briefly worked for an online bulletin board, I befriended a woman who was an avid collector of this series. She told me they are the choice series for people in her chosen lifestyle, that being S & M. This was back in 1996. It was my first exposure to people who willingly choose to fully activate that lifestyle into their personal lives, fufilling the roles of master to slave and so forth. What surprised me as she explained how things worked in her world, was the idea that couples managed "owning" several women in the lifestyle, women willing to be "owned" by another person or in this case, a married couple invested into the lifestyle. The ultimate mark of ownership was to be branded in public among her closest slave friends in a display that said to everyone that the one being marked really belongs to the master who owns her. After learning about this lifestyle, I learned there are levels to it that people perform, in the case my friend told me about, that is where consenting adults accept certain limitations or accept every bit of the lifestyle. Yes it saddens me greatly that someone with the freedom to be anything she desires chooses to be "owned" by another human being, and I used to struggle with the issue that this person cannot possibly be happy given her circumstances. I have not seen her in over a year now, our lives have drifted onto other avenues of life that no longer converge, and I wonder if she is allright. She no longer lives where I last knew her to be, and she doesn't call like she used to. To tell you the truth, I limit what to think in this area as I have an active imagination and I can't help thinking someday a woman being beaten to death out of being "punished" for some minor breaking of her master's rules. Out of all the folks in my life I have met, this woman and the life she leads never fails to bring worry to my heart. Jo Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Mason" To: Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Gor stuff: Piccininni > I've noted this before, but...several booksellers have told me most of the > audience they've sold the GOR novels to is female. (Those seeking purer > sexual sadism can find less self-censored stuff, including at least some of > the bodice-busting romances aimed presumably at women readers and more in > vogue a decade ago than now.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: eva piccininni [mailto:epiccini@EECS.UMICH.EDU] > > http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2000/05/18/gor/index.html > > i've heard of them before, but i've never read any of the gor books, and i > was totally unaware of their plot. how utterly ridiculous...and sad. > > -> eva > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:46:50 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kathleen Friello Subject: Fwd: big NYC book signing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_55.616d532.2655daea_boundary" --part1_55.616d532.2655daea_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In case you missed the ads-- more information through the URL at the bottom of this notice --part1_55.616d532.2655daea_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: From: Kmfriello@aol.com Full-name: Kmfriello Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:41:58 EDT Subject: sfwa To: Unovissf@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 100 Ground Zero: New York City Friday, May 19. 7:30 to 8:30 PM Note revised time Location: Barnes & Noble at 33 East 17th Street (the north end of Union Square). A really beautiful store with the feel of a book cathedral. Authors signing in NYC: (This year's finalists and special awards in bold) Brian Aldiss (Grand Master), Daniel Keyes (Author Emeritus), Roger MacBride Allen, Catherine Asaro, Constance Ash, Terry Bisson, Richard Bowes, Michael A. Burstein, Octavia Butler, Ed Carmien, Jeff Carver, Adam-Troy Castro, Jack L. Chalker, Suzy Charnas, B. A. Chepaitis, Brenda Clough, Greg Cox, Tony Daniel, Ellen Datlow, Russell Davis, Keith De Candido, Debra Doyle, Gardner Dozois, Carol Emshwiller, Jeffrey Ford, Esther Friesner, Laura Anne Gilman, Kathleen Goonan, Eric Griffin, Anne Lesley Groell, Gordon Gross, James Gunn, Joe Haldeman, Glenn Hauman, Laurell Hamilton, David Hartwell, Howard Hendrix, David W. Hill, Brian A. Hopkins, James Patrick Kelly, John Kessel, Barbara Krasnoff, Nancy Kress, Steve Lazarowitz, Paul Levinson, James D. Macdonald, Ken MacLeod, Louise Marley, David Marusek, Terry McGarry, Dustin Moon, John Moore, James Morrow, Jerry Oltion, Kathy Oltion, Severna Park, John Peel, Mark Rich, Madeleine E. Robins, Bruce Holland Rogers, Pamela Sargent, Steve Sawicki, Lawrence Schimel, Stanley Schmidt, Mark Shepherd, Josepha Sherman, Frances Sherwood, Bill Shunn, Susan Shwartz, A. L. Sirois, Kristine Smith, Stephanie Smith, Stephanie Spinner, John Steele, Allison Stein, Ian Randal Strock, Barbara J. Thrower, Shane Tourtellotte, Soma Vira, K. D. Wentworth, Scott Westerfeld, Rick Wilber, Sheila Williams, Laurel Winter, Paul Witcover, George Zebrowski, Sarah Zettel. http://www.sfwa.org/awards/2000/signings.htm --part1_55.616d532.2655daea_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:46:21 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Glenda Alexander Subject: Re: kqed interview with Octavia Butler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I found the interview here: http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/totn/20000518.totn.02.ram Glenda ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.