From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thu Jul 12 20:26:44 2001 Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 07:39:56 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0008A" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 18:17:14 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: Emma Donoghue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just wanted to thank whoever nominated the Donoghue book-- I loved it. I wished I had that book when I was a teenager. I think it would have really given me some valuable information. It was celebratory without being didactic. And it was lovely. I tried to read The Gilda Stories, but couldn't get past the passive scenes and wooden prose. I really wanted to like it, because the premise was brilliant. Looking forward to future discussions. --Allyson ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:09:26 -0400 Reply-To: rudileon@earthlink.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: OT: Librarians In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello there. I'm very sorry for the OT on this strictly on-topic list, but it's been very quiet, and I hope i'll be forgiven :) I am considering pursuing an MLS, and if memory serves, there are an enormous number of librarians on this list -- but that may have been before the lists split. I'm hoping that some of us who are librarians would be willing to contact me off-list, to discuss the field, the education, career info, etc... Thanks! and back to your regularly scheduled on-topic discussions ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Rudy Leon PhD student Dept. of Religion Syracuse University rudileon@earthlink.net ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:30:28 -0400 Reply-To: rudileon@earthlink.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: feminism in harry potter and pern MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT and just to make up for my breach of topicality, I'll throw in an on- topic question as well! (May contain spoilers for Pern, far below) I have recently finished my first foray into Pern, via the Dragonriders of Pern trilogy (Dragonflight, Dragonquest, and The White Dragon). I've also just finished the 4th Potter book. I've heard conversations in other forums about the feminism of the Potter-verse -- about which I have strong feelings, but am willing to listen to other views! - - but I've never heard much about Pern and feminism. Of course, I never paid much attention before, since I had never read McCaffrey, and never thought I would. I'd love to discuss Potter here, if someone wants to pick this up, but I'll leave that open. I get the feeling many folks feel Potter'ed out, and would hate to inflict that further if no one wants to play! On to Pern: Since folks talk about Anne McCaffrey (AM) on this list, my assumption had been that her work would be considered feminist. I found it to be considerably not the case. In fact, the faint patina of a pro-feminist overlay (The Power of Lessa in the first book) on such a patently anti-feminist universe is really bothersome to me. The people of Pern are descended from very modern Us, with women on board and supposedly of equal status, yet the world declines to a feudal medievalism, replete with misogyny and the degradations of women abound. Why does AM make this choice? and why does she fail to recognize the position women on Pern are in? Their absence of power, reverse mirrored by the power of The DragonMen and GuildMen and Lords, and the powerlessness of women in the Weyrs, just continues further underlines the absence of feminism on Pern. And then we have all the truly unpleasant women on Pern, although there are perhaps an equal number of unpleasant men. However, Lessa is the only Queen rider of decency. The rest are just selfish and/or evil. In the White Dragon, the bard and the two nursesfolk are good women, but mostly we see this though their housekeeping and caretaking skill, although there is an assumption of intelligence because the Harpermaster finds them worthy of special tasks. Am I just being overharsh? Is there a reason to keep reading the series? I find the universe compelling, but being constantly polarized by enjoyment/distaste is pretty tough after a while! I hate being sucked into something I find distasteful, so I'd loved to be talked out of seeing Pern this way! ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Rudy Leon PhD student Dept. of Religion Syracuse University rudileon@earthlink.net ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 14:00:43 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Re: OT: Librarians In-Reply-To: <200008041709.KAA09019@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Note from listowner - All off-topic messages should be posted on FEMINISTSF. The FEMINISTSF-LIT list is for on-topic messages only. See http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/ for more information. ----- You see, I don't believe that libraries should be drab places where people sit in silence and that's been the main reason for our policy of employing wild animals as librarians. --Monty Python Chris Shaffer http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ chris@bsinc.net AIM:ChrisShaff ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 13:24:50 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: feminism in harry potter and pern Comments: To: rudileon@EARTHLINK.NET In-Reply-To: <200008041730.KAA11059@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "Rudy Leon" at Aug 04, 2000 11:30:28 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rudy Leon writes: > >(May contain spoilers for Pern, far below) At this point it almost certainly contains Pern spoilers, not so far below anymore. >And then we have all the truly unpleasant women on Pern, although there >are perhaps an equal number of unpleasant men. However, Lessa is the >only Queen rider of decency. The rest are just selfish and/or evil. >In the White Dragon, the bard and the two nursesfolk are good women, >but mostly we see this though their housekeeping and caretaking skill, >although there is an assumption of intelligence because the Harpermaster >finds them worthy of special tasks. I wouldn't call Brekke (the queen rider who ends up paired with F'nor) evil, but certainly all her goodness is shown through her typically 'feminine' skill of caretaking and her strong maternal instincts. In later books there a character named Menolly takes center stage; she is a woman who wants to be a Harper, which is considered a 'man's job'. Her story is the most feminist of McCaffery's Pern writings in my mind, but it doesn't hold up in the long run -- I'm not going into details here in case you decide you want to read the trilogy focused on her (Dragonsong, Dragonsinger, Dragondrums). >Am I just being overharsh? Is there a reason to keep reading the >series? I find the universe compelling, but being constantly >polarized by enjoyment/distaste is pretty tough after a while! I hate >being sucked into something I find distasteful, so I'd loved to be >talked out of seeing Pern this way! I don't think you're being overly harsh at all, unfortunately. When I was thirteen I absolutely adored the Pern books, but now (at twenty-four) I find them fairly distasteful as well. McCaffery has stated in several different online interviews that she is not a feminist and does not consider her work feminist, and what she's shared about the cosmology (I'm not sure that's the correct word) of Pern just reinforces her non-feminist stance. For instance: In order to become a queen rider a woman must be "fully female" (McCaffery's words), which is to say she must be heterosexual. Dragon-rider pairs are sex linked, and most women don't ride the green fighting dragons for a combination of historical reasons and because they don't have the temperaments to handle it. (Note that the one woman in the books who ends up on a green dragon is portrayed as very harsh towards others, although she is a sympathetic character.) Another example: Queen riders also tend to have strong caretaking instincts, as their role is to take care of the Weyr while their male partner handles the fighting aspects. There's something to be said for the glorification of 'women's work', but I don't think it really balances out. -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 17:25:41 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: feminism in harry potter and pern MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that McCaffrey believes it's inevitable for Pern's women to lose their power, as the settlers lose their technology and forget their origins. She does, after all, belong to my mother's generation; and in the earlier Pern books, she was writing decades ago before there were such people as women fighter pilots and women sword boat captains. With that said, though - my generation hasn't proved her wrong. In 1998 an ice storm took out the entire power grid in my state, naturally at mid-winter. I didn't see a single female worker among the crews who reconstructed that grid, setting poles in solid-frozen ground and replacing 100,000 miles of power lines over a period of about two weeks. Is it easier for men to do that work than for women, physically speaking? Sure. But think about it. How long would it take, if a life-threatening emergency affected an entire society as "Thread" did on Pern, for traditional gender roles to make the kind of comeback that they do in McCaffrey's fiction? After watching what happened around me during the Ice Storm of '98, I have a lot more trouble calling her wrong than I used to have. (Excuse me, Rudy - I'm getting used to new e-mail software, and I meant to send this to the list in the first place.) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 18:17:48 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: feminism in pern Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cera Kruger wrote: > I don't think you're being overly harsh at all, unfortunately. I think, as with any book, you have to look at the author's spatial-temporal-cultural position. The first pern books/stories were written more than a quarter century ago. If I'm not mistaken, McCaffery is from the UK--which (as a society) has rather different views on gender roles and feminism than, say, the average (if there is such a thing) north-american. Also, I don't think one can take the author's POV on whether or not she (or he ;-) is a feminist--the word carries so much baggage and extra meaning that the interviewer and the interviewee could have entirely different notions of what a "feminist" is. One must also, I think, talk about which aspects of feminism the books portray (or not). Feminism is complex (and sometimes self-contradictory), so it's hard to label a book entirely "feminist". I think that feminism is also on a sliding scale. What I mean is that I think that if a book or story pushes the reader outside of the norm toward some unknown "pure" feminist state of consciousness or understanding, then you could say that the aspect of the story that does this is feminist in nature. The distance that the reader is derailed from the norm toward the "pure" is how I would gauge the "radicalness"(?) of the feminism. This means that how feminist some aspect of a story is (if it's written well and persuasively, and the reader integrates the philosophy into her (or his) "psyche" (for lack of a better word)), will change on further readings--presumably being "less radical". So, I think you could label aspects of the pern series mildly feminist for the average reader of right now or perhaps somewhat more feminist for the average reader in the times and places in which they were published. I'm sorry if this is obvious (or nonsensical) to everyone else, but it kinda usually works for me. :-) -allen ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 23:28:26 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: feminism in pern MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . If I'm not mistaken, >McCaffery is from the UK--which (as a society) has rather different >views on gender roles and feminism than, say, the average (if there >is such a thing) north-american. You are mistaken. McCaffery's bio notes in her books place her as American, or at least was largely educated and spent most of the earlier part of her life there, though I believe she now lives in Ireland. I find your statement about UK views on gender roles and feminism curious.... Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 20:19:04 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: feminism in harry potter and pern In-Reply-To: <200008041730.KAA11059@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Rudy posted: On to Pern: Since folks talk about Anne McCaffrey (AM) on this >list, my assumption had been that her work would be considered >feminist. By some readers perhaps --there's no single consensus on what makes a work 'feminist' or not. Many readers who find empowerment in reading books that I consider NOT feminist at all could make an argument for the work to be feminist. I don't consider McCaffrey's work particularly feminist in any regard. However, for years, before more and more women began publishing, I read what she wrote. For one thing, she did have more female characters than a lot of the SF writers back then (I remember reading the short story that began the whole Lessa story at a fairly early age -- 12 maybe?). I've had students who love her work for its' powerful women. I particularly love her sense of the bonding between rider and dragon in the Pern series; I LOVE the dragons. I wanted one. I like her character Menolly in the Harper Hall trilogy. I finally gave up somewhat in disgust when undercurrents in the earlier works became blatant in the Crystal Singers series: specifically, what I consider to be the author's overwhelming elitism. The reason I don't consider AM feminist (while admitting other readers may find her work vastly different) is that she seems to be imbued by the Exceptional Woman bug, something not uncommon for women who made it in male-dominated fields in earlier decades (as McCaffrey herself did, I suppose). So you'll have one woman in a book who is totally Powerful, Top of the Line, OutBrilliants everyone else -- and she's the Queen Bee. However, that female character rarely has female friends (do ANY of her female characters have female friends?), and there's no consideration of women in "lesser positions." The position of women on Pern generally -- perhaps somewhat worse in the Holds but not all that great if you're one of the serving women in the Weyrs it seems to me -- isn't Lessa's concern (or the author's). The one book where she seemed to TRY to deal with class issues ("Outsiders of Pern") was, I thought, dreadful. To be fair, I've heard a paper or two (ICFA I think) that argued that McCaffrey, in showing what happens to women when the technologically advanced colonists regress to 'medieval' situations, is making a feminist argument. But I doubt that was her intention from the start -- I don't know just how much of the "lost colony" stuff she had in mind when she started writing what looked like a fantasy. But the problems with her female characters remain for me no matter what the technological issue. The Exceptional Woman in real life (and there are a number in academia, my field) seems to often hold the opinion that Talent is what got her there -- and anyone who is talented enough will suceed -- but in practice often makes sure other women do not succeed. Her heterosexism (given that she sets up the idea that riders mate when dragons mate, but there's only one dragon queen rider per Weyr and LOTS of male riders (and why can't more women than the one impress a Green or Brown???) is a problem. As is the prose describing some of the sexual intercourse scenes (reek of the romance rape approach -- McCaffrey has also published romances under another name) -- that is, the Woman is Overpowered by the Man without her consent, but she ends up loving it. Sorry, I don't know why so many capitals are sneaking into the message. Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 08:49:10 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: feminism in harry potter and pern MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good point about the "exceptional woman" in McCaffrey's work. A thought: as an SF writer 25 years ago, perhaps she was concerned (consciously or not) with making her books accessible to readers who wouldn't have wanted to see powerful women unless their presence was explained? To take away the threat they would otherwise represent? Much as those "romantic rape" scenes you mention irritate me, I still grabbed a copy of "Damia's Children" off a used book cart recently. Now if I could only get time to read it! ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 18:57:22 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Thought inspired by listening to X MINUS ONE at scifi.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Just listened to the X MINUS ONE version of "The Snowball Effect" by Katherine MacLean, which also featured an ad for an NBC music program featuring the Claude Thornhill and Lionel Hampton bands. Would that any broadcast service aside from some college radio would keep up, so to speak, as well as that today. The adaptation of Evelyn E. Smith's "Competition" features such a naked misogyny on the part of its characters that one wonders exactly how to take it (the condescension toward the women in "Snowball" is gives way to biters bit). Wow...Smith knew how to revel in that uncomfortable space around gender-power issues, to judge from this and some of her fiction unmediated (except by Gold's editorial pen) I've read. Reminiscent of what Thomas Disch was quoting (in HUDSON REVIEW), iirc, in his recent review of a Mary McCarthy bio...the alienation that McCarthy and her contemporary women writers in the circles around PARTISAN REVIEW et alles felt from resurgent feminism, as if treating with the abuse they suffered was their necessary lot or the price they should have to pay for daring to have intellectual lives, at very least public ones. And, of course, the sufferings of women characters in their fiction and some of the other fiction of the time, very much including some of the romance fiction...oh, well, it's always sobering to go back and see the rage. Back when expressing it openly wasn't fashionable at all. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.