From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thu Jul 12 20:27:13 2001 Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 07:39:58 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0009B" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 16:59:31 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Organization: Microsoft Corporation Subject: BDG Singer From The Sea I was surprised at Danny's reaction to the political comments in SFTS. This must be your first Tepper, Danny. My favorite part of her writing is the way she takes misogyny to its ultimate endpoint. She usually has the bad guys showing their disbelief in the personhood of women by using and abusing women in various ways. I think her books are directed at the women-five-steps-behind-men group to show them just how damaging to human beings this sort of thinking is. The idea of women being of secondary importance to men is so prevalent in most literature that Tepper's highlighting it is a necessary and refreshing turn. Unfortunately in SFTS I found the style to be so simplistic I was almost embarrassed to read it. It seemed to be directed toward the Harry Potter audience, and required no greater effort to follow than do those books -- pure escapism if it weren't for the political comments. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:51:49 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Nomination Period Opened MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Once again we are overdue in selecting the books to discuss in the BDG in the next months. We will have another one month break in October. I explain the nomination process (attention: we have a new policy) and the BDG below, especially for the newcomers, but first I want to address an issue that has bothered the organizing team for some time now: the lack of discussion of the BDG selections lately (so far only in the actual discussions, not in the nomination process or number of votes (which have risen)). How do other list member experience this? What do you think is the reason for the low participation? What suggestions do you have to enliven the discussions? The organizing team has also discussed the issue, our only idea so far was to ascertain that there is a kick-off message. Thus, our new policy (see below). We think that will help but we are afraid it is enough. We also would like to broaden the organizing team. Further volunteers are very welcome, not so much because of the work involved but to bring in new ideas. On to the nomination process: List members are invited to nominate books from now on until Monday, 18 September (incl.). Next Tuesday I will post the final nomination list and then there'll be one week in which you can send in your votes. Terri Wakefield is in charge of the votes. 4 books will be selected to be discussed from November to February. Books can be nominated that fulfill the following criteria: - speculative fiction (science fiction, fantasy, horror, etc.) - feminist (loose definition, nominators do _not_ have to have read the book already, it is enough if the story outline, reviews, or general reputation indicate that the book might be of interest from a feminist perspective) - currently available in the US (in English ;-) ) as mass market or trade paperback. Nominated books can be novels, collections and anthologies. If you nominate a collection or an anthology please specify which stories in particular you think the group should discuss (especially if it's a large one). During the nomination period, you can nominate one book per person, by sending email to the FeministSF-Lit list with "BDG Nomination" in the subject line. Please confirm the availability of any title before nominating it by contacting Maryelizabeth at Mysterious Galaxy (http://www.mystgalaxy.com/), by looking it up on Amazon.com or by enquiring at a near-by bookstore. With the nomination members should provide the following information: - author - title - publisher - list price - ISBN For example: Nalo Hopkinson: Brown Girl in the Ring. (July 1998). Warner Books; ISBN: 0446674338, List Price: $12.99 Nominations without this information are returned to the nominator. If somebody has for any reason difficulties confirming availability (e.g. non-US residents without full internet access) I am very ready to help them (please contact me off-list). Books are nominated ATTENTION: new policy Nominators of books finally selected are expected to kick-off the discussion when their books are due for discussion. Nominators can do this any way they want but it should be more than the sentence 'the BDG discussion on book XYZ is opened'. Tell us what you liked or disliked about the book, list and/or quote on- and offline reviews, list similarities to other books, say which character you impressed you most, etc. We will contact successful nominators before we fix the BDG schedule for November to February so that we can take your time constraints into account. I handle the nominations and continuously update the nomination webpage (see http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/bdg_nom_0900.htm ). Especially for the newcomers I want to stress: The BDG is one (and only one) feature of the feministsf-lit. It's purpose is to focus discussion on a particular book at a particular time. Other books can be discussed in parallel to the BDG, of course, and past and future BDG books can be discussed at any time on the list. The only difference to a 'normal' list discussion is that in BDG messages spoilers (for the BDG book under discussion) have not to be pointed out (the 'BDG' in the subject line is the actual spoiler warning). I recommend that newcomers look up the selection procedure, old nomination lists, the archives and the purpose of the BDG at the BDG website http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 13:32:17 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Nomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I nominate The Books of Great Alta by Jane Yolen List Price: $16.95, 448 pages (April 1997), St. Martin's Press; ISBN: 031286258X This book contains _Sister Light, Sister Dark_ (1988) and the sequel _The White Jenna_ (1989). I've got interested in this book because Jessica Salmonson mentions it in an essay on amazons (http://www.violetbooks.com/amazon.html) as a positive example in which the Amazon/swordswoman is _not_ presented as an anomaly in her society. There are apparently no online reviews out there, but Amazon readers gave it a 5 star rating (8 votes). A selection of their comments: Reviewer: Buichiro@aol.com from Swannanoa, NC Jane Yolen has created a world and a story reminiscent of some old celtic myth. In fact you may wonder as you read whether or not there exists somewhere a legend much like this one sometime in our own world's past. The story centers around a central character named White Jenna who is raised by a community of women warriors similar to the Amazons. White Jenna is prophecied of and will reunite the (Sisters) with the world. She will bring change that some Sisters embrace and some resist to the bitter end. White Jenna is rescued as a baby in the forest and raised by a Light and Dark Sister. If you want to know what a light and dark sister are you'll have to read the book. Jane Yolen explains that concept much better than I can. The first part of the book is about the early life of White Jenna and her friends growing up in the community of sisters. The book really takes off after all this when Jenna and her friends have to go out on their missions. This is similar to young american indians going out into the wild and proving their manhood, having visions, and getting their spirit names. Alot of the happenings in this book parallel legends and myths from many sources. Once Jenna sets out on her mission things start to happen and the pace of the story really takes off and seldom slows until the end. Oh but don't worry about the ending. The ending is very satisfying and unlike many books, appropriate. This book has romance, fight scenes, adventure, war, fantasy, myth, quests, and all the elements one looks for in a really great fantasy. I was enchanted and spellbound as I sacrificed sleep to find out what happens next. Jane Yolen writes mostly children's books and you get a sense of that by the way this book reads but don't let that fool you into thinking it was written for children only. This book is definitely for kids of all ages. Enjoy! Elizabeth Kerner (ekerner@aol.com) from Edinburgh, Scotland Part of Yolen's genius lies in her skillful weaving of reality and fantasy, the melding of myth and pseudo-history (with some quiet digs at modern historians along the way - but that's just an added extra) to form a convincing whole. The book is full of strong, memorable characters, most especially her central heroine, Jenna. Jenna is human enough both to want to be the Anna, the chosen one, and at the same time to want to reject that destiny. Fantasy and reality, blended and woven, but not like a piece of cloth, flat and two-dimensional - Jane's work is more like a fine basket, with height, width and depth, filled with brilliant writing and replete with original ideas that for all their newness still resonate at a deep level. Her concept of the dark sisters has introduced a new archetype to modern myth, and it is so powerful and rings so true that from this time forth we will wonder how we did not know it before. In an interview in 1988 Yolen herself said about the book (http://www.ub.rug.nl/camelot/intrvws/yolen.htm): Raymond Thompson: When you're writing within the Arthurian tradition, of course, you know that certain things are going to happen. Jane Yolen: Maybe. RT: Arthur is going to die? JY: Maybe. RT: Might you try to write a story in which he doesn't? JY: Well, let me put it this way: in the second book of two linked novels, Sister Light, Sister Dark and White Jenna, I wrestle with that sort of thing. They are not Arthurian, but they speak to this particular point. The books look like Amazonian sword and sorcery, but they are really about the nexxus point of legend, history, balladry, myth. What I do is start with "The Story," then suddenly move to "The Legend," which has something to do with what we've been listening to, but does not fit exactly. There are some odd points, as if someone four hundred years later had made up a tale about what had been passed along for those four hundred years. And then I have a section called "The Ballad," which again is like both the legend and the story, and yet it doesn't quite fit exactly either. And then I have a section called "The History," in which a historian two thousand years later tries to recreate the Amazonian society from various fragments of information: a dig, or a book, or a poem that's been left, or pieces of a poem. Of course, he is one hundred and eighty degrees wrong. In the two books women--when they reach puberty--learn how to call up their shadow side, so that the shadow, the dark sister, can live side by side with them when the moon is shining, or when there's a strong light source. And at the end of the second book our hero knows that she can take one person back into the goddess grove, where she will live young forever until she's needed in the world again. And she has to make the choice whether to take her dark sister or her husband, the king. She reaches a decision, and the last line is something like, "She opened her arms." Now, you don't know which she's done: whether she's taken her husband into the grove to live forever with him until need is greatest again, or whether she's gone off with the dark sister. According to legend two stories are told. One is the story the men tell: and the men say that years later, when they discovered the cave that led into the grove, they found the long bones of a man tied to a sled; and they say that still, on moonlit nights, you can see two women, running naked through the woods, come and leap over the long bones and go off. The women tell the story that Jenna and her king are waiting in the grove until they are needed again. So it's the story of Arthur, and it's telling it both ways. I'm saying, yes, he died; no, he didn't. So in a sense that story I wrote would have been written very differently if I hadn't known Arthurian legend. Because the ending is purely Avalon and the Sleepers. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 08:52:25 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Re: BDG Nomination Period Opened In-Reply-To: <200009120952.LAA02440@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 9/12/0006:51 AM, you wrote: >How do other list member experience this? What do you think is >the reason for the low participation? What suggestions do you have >to enliven the discussions? Perhaps someone could re-post each book's information about two or three weeks before the discussion. It would perhaps remind some of us to buy the book or order it via interlibrary loan. I often find that the discussion is interesting, but by the time I remember to fill out an ILL for it, the discussion is over. ----- "When I'm afraid I listen to the silence of the fieldmouse. When I'm fearless I listen to the silence of the mousing cat." --Ursula K. Le Guin Chris Shaffer http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ chris@bsinc.net AIM:ChrisShaff ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:35:46 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Li Subject: Re: BDG Nomination Period Opened In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000912085049.00afc8d0@209.116.117.80> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:52 AM 9/12/00 -0500, you wrote: >At 9/12/0006:51 AM, you wrote: >>How do other list member experience this? What do you think is >>the reason for the low participation? What suggestions do you have >>to enliven the discussions? > >Perhaps someone could re-post each book's information about two or three >weeks before the discussion. It would perhaps remind some of us to buy the >book or order it via interlibrary loan. I often find that the discussion >is interesting, but by the time I remember to fill out an ILL for it, the >discussion is over. Speaking of which.... I'm pretty new to the list and have been lurking to get a feel for things. Since its been quiet, so have I. I see that _Singer from the Sea_ is the Sept. book and the nomination period is for Nov.-Feb. Is there a book for Oct. or is that a book-free month while we do voting and stuff? I don't see a book listed on the website. As for _Singer from the Sea_, I fall in with the people that didn't like it very much because the main character seemed a bit silly. I was also reminded a lot of Frank Herbert's plot devices--the life giving red power was similar to _Dune_, and the sentient sea from _The Jesus Inicident_ and _The Lazaraus Effect_. Li ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:26:28 +1200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jenny Rankine Subject: Mary Gentle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C01CF7.BB19A230" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C01CF7.BB19A230 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been trying to get into some Mary Gentle novels recently, but = cannot make myself interested. I was trying one (I can't remember the title) = with the couple from her early books - swordfighting woman and deviously = plotting fat male partner. In this latest one, where they are somehow in a = slightly future world from like ours, she teaches swordfighting to actors and develops software, while he is on the run and develops hardware = interfaces. One thing which really puts me off is her allocating him a set of = revolting personal hygeine habits. He picks his nose and wipes it down his = trousers. She refers constantly to his copious sweat, his massive thighs and = general hugeness. She wants us to see him as gross. I find this editorial = urging gross, myself - I detest fat hatred and that's what it feels like. The = plot was promising, but I can't stand the characterisation and description. = I got Grunts and the first (enormous) Ash book out of the library but = haven't even opened them due to these responses from her earlier book. One of her books with this couple which I read earlier involved a plot = which used a lesbian relationship and character as a scapegoat in a way which = came across as anti-lesbian - I can't remember the details but I did manage = to finish that one despite my amazement at the direction she was heading. Anyone out there read these or any other Mary Gentle? What do you = think? Jenny Rankine =A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA= =B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0= =BA=A4 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C01CF7.BB19A230 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mary Gentle

I have been trying = to get into some Mary Gentle novels recently, but cannot make myself = interested.  I was trying one (I can't remember the title) with = the couple from her early books - swordfighting woman and deviously = plotting fat male partner.  In this latest one, where they are = somehow in a slightly future world from like ours, she teaches = swordfighting to actors and develops software, while he is on the run = and develops hardware interfaces. 

One thing which = really puts me off is her allocating him a set of revolting personal = hygeine habits.  He picks his nose and wipes it down his = trousers.  She refers constantly to his copious sweat, his massive = thighs and general hugeness.  She wants us to see him as = gross.  I find this editorial urging gross, myself - I detest fat = hatred and that's what it feels like.  The plot was promising, but = I can't stand the characterisation and description.  I got Grunts = and the first (enormous) Ash book out of the library but haven't even = opened them due to these responses from her earlier book.

One of her books = with this couple which I read earlier involved a plot which used a = lesbian relationship and character as a scapegoat in a way which came = across as anti-lesbian - I can't remember the details but I did manage = to finish that one despite my amazement at the direction she was = heading.

Anyone out there = read these or any other Mary Gentle?  What do you think?

Jenny Rankine

=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8= =B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8= =A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4

------_=_NextPart_001_01C01CF7.BB19A230-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:31:12 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Re: BDG Nominations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You asked why participation is so low. Personally, I am put off by the amount of research which seems to be required in order to nominate a book. I don't mean the publishing info, but rather the detailed reviews by two or three different people, and the websites, justifying the choice of the book. I don't wanna research it, I just want to read it. I want to hear what the other plebes like me have to say about it. I don' t really care what all the high muckety-mucks at such-and-such a website have to say. At least....not before I've read it, I don't. ---s ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:53:02 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: BDG Nominations In-Reply-To: <39BF2D3E.F97E8F78@cdsnet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 12 Sep 00, Sharon Anderson wrote: > You asked why participation is so low. > Personally, I am put off by the amount of research which seems to be required > in order to nominate a book. I don't mean the publishing info, but rather the > detailed reviews by two or three different people, and the websites, > justifying the choice of the book. I don't wanna research it, I just want to > read it. I want to hear what the other plebes like me have to say about it. > I don' t really care what all the high muckety-mucks at such-and-such a > website have to say. At least....not before I've read it, I don't. But you don't need to do that! The only thing _requested_ is the publishing info. I will try to make this more clear in my opening comments next time. On the other hand, what follows the nominations is a popular vote and if you want a book to win it is sometimes (not always) necessary to campaign for it. But there's no reason that you have to do research for that (I have a website on feminist sf with lots of links to reviews so most times when I nominate a book I simply rely on that). Simply stating why you are interested in reading the book could do the trick as well - and sometimes better. In the past there have been all sorts of comments with which people accompanied their nominations (as can be seen in the old nomination pages, although it is true that the nomination pages are 'fuller' than the first). From lots of quotes of reviews to simple statements. It is true that I can give you only one example in which a book nominated with no specific comments has won: in February last year _Slow River_ by Nicola Griffith was nominated with the words 'Reviews: Oh my, need I say more?' and was promptly selected. Some books are so well known they are self-runners, the more obscure often need some advertisement. But it is _your_ choice how you want to do it - or at all. On 12 Sep 00, Li wrote: > I'm pretty new to the list and have been lurking to get a feel for > things. Since its been quiet, so have I. I see that _Singer from the > Sea_ is the Sept. book and the nomination period is for Nov.- Feb. Is there > a book for Oct. or is that a book-free month while we do voting and > stuff? I don't see a book listed on the website. There is no book selected for October, the BDG discussion will have a break of one month. 'Normally' the nomination period is two months in advance of a batch of 4 books to be discussed. That gives list members 6 weeks after the selection to organize and read the first book selected. That may seem a long time but we want to give oversea list members (all these Australians ;-) ) a chance to participate. I was away this summer in the crucial period and no one stepped in. Furthermore, we were a bit uncertain how to proceed in the present circumstances. That's why we are one month late with the nomination and selection process. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:57:43 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: Mary Gentle In-Reply-To: <1168B489A818D411AD7F00508B2E33500EA2CF@HRC02> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 13 Sep 00, Jenny Rankine wrote: "I have been trying to get into some Mary Gentle novels recently, but cannot make myself interested. I was trying one (I can't remember the title) with the couple from her early books - swordfighting woman and deviously plotting fat male partner. In this latest one, where they are somehow in a slightly future world from like ours, she teaches swordfighting to actors and develops software, while he is on the run and develops hardware interfaces." The first part sounds like _Rats and Gargoyles_ but I haven't finished that book. "Anyone out there read these or any other Mary Gentle? What do you think?" I've read _Golden Witchbred_ some years back, which I found marvelous. I liked the major character, her trip across the foreign planet, the various cultures, the storyline. I bought the sequel to that but did not read more than one chapter. The reason for that was simple that it plays 20 (?) years after the first book and a lot of things happened to the characters and the planet inbetween. I like to think that the character live 'happily ever after' and it is hard to hear that it was not so. A very immature attitude, I know but I also read for fun. Some months ago I tried _Rats and Gargoyles_ but couldn't 'get into it'. I've read several reviews of _Ash_. In some of them it was said that Gentle is an uneven writer but _Ash_ is highly recommended. Like you I don't know whether I should start on it. According to the reviews all the Ash books are one story (although the American publisher divided the story up) and the length of the books (and the associated costs, no chance to get it from a library here) hold me back. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:47:19 -0600 Reply-To: rudileon@earthlink.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rudy Leon Subject: BDG Nom: Confessions of an ugly stepsister In-Reply-To: <200009131258.OAA24955@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT So, here's my Nomination: Gregory Maguire, _Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister_ Paperback - 384 pages (October 2000) Regan Books; ISBN: 0060987529 List Price: $15.00 Paperback next month.... One of my all time surprise favorite books is his first novel, _Wicked_ which is the tale of the Wicked Witch of the West of Oz fame. Unbelievably fantastic! And I'd nominate it, but we're limited to one now, and I've already read that one! So, here's a review from The GreenMan review , and one form Amazon (there's bunches of reviews at Amazon) from http://www.greenmanreview.com/confessions.html When Iris Fisher's English father is suddenly murdered by his neighbors, Iris's Dutch mother Margarethe gathers up her daughters (Iris has an elder sister, Ruth) and flees back to her homeland. She hopes to take sanctuary with her father, but arrives to find that her father has died some time ago. Penniless, the trio is taken in by the Master, a painter, who agrees to house and feed them if Iris will sit for a portrait. One of the first people that Iris notices in her new home is a child of her own age, the ethereally lovely Clara van den Meer, whom the citizens of Haarlem call a changeling. Iris has no idea that her life is going to be inextricably bound up with this beautiful child. Eventually, Margarethe's manipulations land her and her daughters in the van den Meer household. Iris is to be an English tutor and companion to Clara while Margarethe becomes cook and cleaner. While Iris is enjoying having a new friend and exploring her new world, Margarethe's manipulations continue, until after Dame van den Meer's death in childbirth, she becomes the new Dame van den Meer. And still her manipulations continue. Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister is, of course, a variation on the age-old tale of Cinderella, the fair young maid whose evil stepmother and stepsisters keep her in the kitchen and keep her covered in dirt and ashes so that her beauty is hidden. But here, the stepsisters are not evil. Nor is Iris truly ugly. She is plain to look upon, certainly, but she has a kind and loving heart and sticks up for Clara against her mother. Ruth, the elder sister, is also not evil; she cannot be, for she has no more wit than a five year old and must be taken care of by Iris. This version is much closer to the recently released screen version of the tale, Ever After, starring Drew Barrymore as Cinderella (if you'll recall, one of the stepsisters was considered ugly by her mother and was much more sympathetic to Cinderella's plight) than the Disney version where the sisters were both ugly and spiteful. Maguire has set the story against the backdrop of seventeenth- century Holland; Rembrandt is mentioned as being a young fellow using surprising techniques. Much of the detail is told in painterly metaphor, light and color, especially when Iris herself becomes interested in painting. The story does have all of the time-honored motifs of the tale, including Cinderella visiting the ball and being unrecognized, the lost slipper, the visit of the Prince to the household, but it is how they are mixed up and changed that makes the story fresh and new, and although we know that Cinderella will end up with the Prince, what happens after that is something of a surprise. I have not read Maguire's first novel, Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West, but having read Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister, I have moved it to the top of my reading list. I am also anxiously awaiting his next novel. Editorial Reviews Amazon.com Gregory Maguire's chilling, wonderful retelling of Cinderella is a study in contrasts. Love and hate, beauty and ugliness, cruelty and charity--each idea is stripped of its ethical trappings, smashed up against its opposite number, and laid bare for our examination. Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister begins in 17th-century Holland, where the two Fisher sisters and their mother have fled to escape a hostile England. Maguire's characters are at once more human and more fanciful than their fairy-tale originals. Plain but smart Iris and her sister, Ruth, a hulking simpleton, are dazed and terrified as their mother, Margarethe, urges them into the strange Dutch streets. Within days, purposeful Margarethe has secured the family a place in the home of an aspiring painter, where for a short time, they find happiness. But this is Cinderella, after all, and tragedy is inevitable. When a wealthy tulip speculator commissions the painter to capture his blindingly lovely daughter, Clara, on canvas, Margarethe jumps at the chance to better their lot. "Give me room to cast my eel spear, and let follow what may," she crows, and the Fisher family abandons the artist for the upper- crust Van den Meers. When Van den Meer's wife dies during childbirth, the stage is set for Margarethe to take over the household and for Clara to adopt the role of "Cinderling" in order to survive. What follows is a changeling adventure, and of course a ball, a handsome prince, a lost slipper, and what might even be a fairy godmother. In a single magic night, the exquisite and the ugly swirl around in a heated mix: Everything about this moment hovers, trembles, all their sweet, unreasonable hopes on view before anything has had the chance to go wrong. A stepsister spins on black and white tiles, in glass slippers and a gold gown, and two stepsisters watch with unrelieved admiration. The light pours in, strengthening in its golden hue as the sun sinks and the evening approaches. Clara is as otherworldly as the Donkeywoman, the Girl-Boy. Extreme beauty is an affliction... But beyond these familiar elements, Maguire's second novel becomes something else altogether--a morality play, a psychological study, a feminist manifesto, or perhaps a plain explanation of what it is to be human. Villains turn out to be heroes, and heroes disappoint. The story's narrator wryly observes, "In the lives of children, pumpkins can turn into coaches, mice and rats into human beings. When we grow up, we learn that it's far more common for human beings to turn into rats." --Therese Littleton Rudy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 19:33:06 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Mary Gentle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've read _Golden Witchbred_ some years back, which I found > marvelous. I liked the major character, her trip across the foreign > planet, the various cultures, the storyline. I bought the sequel to > that but did not read more than one chapter. The reason for that > was simple that it plays 20 (?) years after the first book and a lot > of things happened to the characters and the planet inbetween. What REALLY annoyed me about this was that MG set it up that her viewpoint character was suffering from sporadic amnesia by the time of the sequel, as the result of some kind of treatment (?speeded-up language learning) undertaken in the course of her professional duties. If she hadn't forgotten huge chunks of what had happened in _Golden Witchbreed_ there wouldn't have been much story. Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:53:14 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Heather Hacker Subject: Re: BDG Nom: Confessions of an ugly stepsister Comments: To: rudileon@EARTHLINK.NET In-Reply-To: <2145D9E65368D211996300104B3302F249F150@exchange.dtechdirect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all- I agree with Rudy - Wicked is one of the greates novels ever. So, I would love to have a discussion about Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister. I second that vote. Heather ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:48:59 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: sc Subject: Re: Mary Gentle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01C01DCC.6C3C5100" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C01DCC.6C3C5100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mary GentleIf you don't like your hero's (and I use the term loosely) = with a full compliment of standard human (and Orc) foibles, vices and = personal hygiene problems then Mary Gentle is not for you. I personally = find it reassuring that in Mary's world people do such mundane things as = wipe their fingers on their clothes when they've eaten greasy food, = swear freely because that's the only form of expression they know, or = shit themselves in fear when they go into battle. It seems to bring = everything back to a human level when so much fantasy is so highly = wrought and rarefied that it becomes clich=E9d. I've read a couple of = her White Crow and Casaubon books and enjoyed them, _Rays_and_Gargoyles = is particularly atmospheric. The descriptions of Casaubon didn't come = across as "fat hatred" to me, he just seemed human, an individual. I = don't remember the anti-lesbian story you mention, but for something = more positive try _Ash_. I loved _Ash:_A_Secret_History_ and could hardly put it down (even tried = to read it while soaking in the bath after a hard day in the garden, = which if you've seen the size of the book is no mean feat). It starts = out like the life story of a medieval woman mercenary, and shifts into = alternate history, magic, strange sentient beings, without losing any of = the grittiness of the soldiers' lives. Yet again, if you don't like = blood, guts, and unpleasant odours stay away from it. _Grunts_ is just sheer raucous, bad-taste. Great! SC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jenny Rankine=20 To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU=20 Sent: 12 September 2000 21:26 Subject: [*FSF-L*] Mary Gentle I have been trying to get into some Mary Gentle novels recently, but = cannot make myself interested. I was trying one (I can't remember the = title) with the couple from her early books - swordfighting woman and = deviously plotting fat male partner. In this latest one, where they are = somehow in a slightly future world from like ours, she teaches = swordfighting to actors and develops software, while he is on the run = and develops hardware interfaces. =20 One thing which really puts me off is her allocating him a set of = revolting personal hygeine habits. He picks his nose and wipes it down = his trousers. She refers constantly to his copious sweat, his massive = thighs and general hugeness. She wants us to see him as gross. I find = this editorial urging gross, myself - I detest fat hatred and that's = what it feels like. The plot was promising, but I can't stand the = characterisation and description. I got Grunts and the first (enormous) = Ash book out of the library but haven't even opened them due to these = responses from her earlier book. One of her books with this couple which I read earlier involved a plot = which used a lesbian relationship and character as a scapegoat in a way = which came across as anti-lesbian - I can't remember the details but I = did manage to finish that one despite my amazement at the direction she = was heading. Anyone out there read these or any other Mary Gentle? What do you = think?=20 Jenny Rankine=20 = =A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0= `=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA= =A4=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C01DCC.6C3C5100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mary Gentle
If you don't like your hero's (and I use the term = loosely)=20 with a full compliment of standard human (and Orc) foibles, vices and = personal=20 hygiene problems then Mary Gentle is not for you. I personally find it=20 reassuring that in Mary's world people do such mundane things as wipe = their=20 fingers on their clothes when they've eaten greasy food, swear freely = because=20 that's the only form of expression they know, or shit themselves in fear = when=20 they go into battle. It seems to bring everything back to a human level = when so=20 much fantasy is so highly wrought and rarefied that it becomes = clich=E9d. I've=20 read a couple of her White Crow and Casaubon books and enjoyed them,=20 _Rays_and_Gargoyles is particularly atmospheric. The descriptions of = Casaubon=20 didn't come across as "fat hatred" to me, he just seemed human, an = individual. I=20 don't remember the anti-lesbian story you mention, but for something = more=20 positive try _Ash_.
 
I loved _Ash:_A_Secret_History_ and could hardly put = it down=20 (even tried to read it while soaking in the bath after a hard day in the = garden,=20 which if you've seen the size of the book is no mean feat). It starts = out like=20 the life story of a medieval woman mercenary, and shifts into alternate = history,=20 magic, strange sentient beings, without losing any of the grittiness of = the=20 soldiers' lives. Yet again, if you don't like blood, = guts, and=20 unpleasant odours stay away from it.
 
_Grunts_ is just sheer raucous, bad-taste. = Great!
 
SC
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jenny=20 Rankine
To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU=20
Sent: 12 September 2000 = 21:26
Subject: [*FSF-L*] Mary = Gentle

I have been trying to = get into some=20 Mary Gentle novels recently, but cannot make myself interested.  = I was=20 trying one (I can't remember the title) with the couple from her early = books -=20 swordfighting woman and deviously plotting fat male partner.  In = this=20 latest one, where they are somehow in a slightly future world from = like ours,=20 she teaches swordfighting to actors and develops software, while he is = on the=20 run and develops hardware interfaces. 

One thing which really = puts me off is=20 her allocating him a set of revolting personal hygeine habits.  = He picks=20 his nose and wipes it down his trousers.  She refers constantly = to his=20 copious sweat, his massive thighs and general hugeness.  She = wants us to=20 see him as gross.  I find this editorial urging gross, myself - I = detest=20 fat hatred and that's what it feels like.  The plot was = promising, but I=20 can't stand the characterisation and description.  I got Grunts = and the=20 first (enormous) Ash book out of the library but haven't even opened = them due=20 to these responses from her earlier book.

One of her books with = this couple=20 which I read earlier involved a plot which used a lesbian relationship = and=20 character as a scapegoat in a way which came across as anti-lesbian - = I can't=20 remember the details but I did manage to finish that one despite my = amazement=20 at the direction she was heading.

Anyone out there read = these or any=20 other Mary Gentle?  What do you think?

Jenny Rankine =

=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8= =A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0= `=B0=BA=A4=20

------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C01DCC.6C3C5100-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:41:04 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Organization: Microsoft Corporation Subject: BDG nomination My nomination for the BDG (information from Barnes and Noble): Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West Gregory Maguire Douglas Smith (Illustrator) Our Price: $12.60 Retail Price: $14.00 You Save: $1.40 (10%) In Stock: 24 hours (Same Day) Format: Paperback, 406pp. ISBN: 0060987103 Publisher: HarperCollins Publishers, Incorporated Pub. Date: September 1996 sales rank: 1,056 Synopsis An astonishingly rich re-creation of the land of Oz, this book retells the story of Elphaba, the Wicked Witch of the West, who wasn't so wicked after all. Taking readers past the yellow brick road and into a phantasmagoric world rich with imagination and allegory, Wicked just might change the reputation of one of the most sinister characters in literature. Annotation A fable for adults on the subject of destiny and free will by a writer of children's books. It tells the story of Elphaba before she became the Wicked Witch of the West in the land of Oz. The novel traces her career as nun, nurse, pro-democracy activist and animal rights defender. Synopsis copyright Fiction Digest >From the Publisher When Dorothy triumphed over the Wicked Witch of the West in L. Frank Baum's classic tale, we heard only her side of the story. But what about her arch-nemesis, the mysterious witch? Where did she come from? How did she become so wicked? And what is the true nature of evil? Gregory Maguire creates a fantasy world so rich and vivid that we will never look at Oz the same way again. Wicked is about a land where animals talk and strive to be treated like first-class citizens, Munchkinlanders seek the comfort of middle-class stability and the Tin Man becomes a victim of domestic violence. And then there is the little green-skinned girl named Elphaba, who will grow up to be the infamous Wicked Witch of the West, a smart, prickly and misunderstood creature who challenges all our preconceived notions about the nature of good and evil. What People Are Saying Starting with the Wizard of Oz material, Gregory Maguire has added greater depth and different facets, creating something altogether different and unique. A magnificent work, a genuine tour de force. ^× (Lloyd Alexander, author of The Chronicles of Prydain) ^×Lloyd Alexander This book is a glorious frolic, a feast of language, a study of good and evil, and a massive history of the fabulous land of Oz. ^× (Jane Langton, author of The Diamond in the Window) ^×Jane Langton I'm halfway through this book now and would love to start off the discussion. I'm always amazed and pleased to find a quality feminist book written by a man. This one has everything: feminism, animal rights, the nature of good and evil, Christianity Vs paganism, racism, classism, religion as a tool of the despot. I'm looking forward to a chance to discuss it. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:59:53 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: Mary Gentle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ^Ö spoiler warning - I have very mixed feelings about Mary Gentle. I find her work continually challenges my expectations ^Ö these are not always the expectations I am happy to see challenged, but I keep reading because I^Òm sure it does me good. The first thing I read was ^ÑGolden Witchbred^Ò. Which was all rather straightforward and fun, although maybe a bit conventional. Then I got the sequel ^ÑAncient Lights^Ò. Like Petra I found the central female character of the first book engaging. I also liked the secondary female character. In the sequel these two are reunited after 20 years, and the hints are there that they will be *more than friends*. At heart I am a lesbian romantic. I read the book with a slowly broadening grin as the two manoeuvred their way through the plot to save the world. I reached the last few chapters. I thought I knew where it was going. The main character was reviewing her feelings about the other woman. I knew something was about to happen ^Ö and I was right. The secondary character was killed and the world was destroyed. I don^Òt think I have ever read anything that has hit me with quite the same impact. For the next month I felt cheated every time I thought about it ^Ö it wasn^Òt the ending I wanted, but somewhere at the back of my head was a grudging admiration that Mary Gentle had succeeded in producing such a strong reaction in me. I realised that I might before have said blithely ^ÑI like books to challenge my preconceptions^Ò, whereas I discovered I only like preconceived ideas about plot structure being challenged if the author flags it well in advanced so I don^Òt conceive the wrong idea to start with. I read ^ÑRats and Gargoyles^Ò which is a touch long-winded but still fascinating in its depiction of a fantasy renaissance style city. Again Mary Gentle throws in elements I was not expecting, except this time I was a bit more ready for it. However here I reached my biggest problem with her work. There is another couple of women teetering towards a lesbian relationship, and again one of them dies. The book described by Jenny sounds more like ^ÑThe Architecture of Desire^Ò, in which there is yet another dead lesbian, at which point it all starts to get a bit predictable. Mary Gentle is not alone in this. In both The Paksenarrion and Serrano trilogies Elizabeth Moon has a lesbian couple, one partner nice/sensible and the other nasty/stupid which, as I^Òve pointed out before, at least made it easy to guess which one of the couple was going to die. As a last point to Jenny, the character of Casaubon is physically gross, although mentally both witty and intelligent, whereas Valentine is a traditionally attractive female. In ^ÑRats and Gargoyles^Ò she could have a traditionally attractive male, but instead she chooses Casaubon. Mary Gentle doesn^Òt go in for hitting the reader over the head with a message, but she does seem to enjoy tearing up old scripts. Jane ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 19:38:21 +0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Katharine Woods Subject: Re: Mary Gentle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a Mary Gentle fan, (see my e-address) this pushes me out of lurkdom. :-) Jenny Rankine wrote: > In this latest one, where they > are somehow in a slightly future world from like ours, she teaches > swordfighting to actors and develops software, while he is on the run > and develops hardware interfaces. This one is "Left to His Own Devices" > One thing which really puts me off is her allocating him a set of > revolting personal hygeine habits. [...snip...]I find this editorial > urging gross, myself - I detest fat > hatred and that's what it feels like. I didn't see it as fat-hatred at all. SC made some good comments, which I'm not repeating here, about Mary Gentle's writing characters with a full set of human habits, even the ickiest. I also think it's actually more of a celebration of fat people since, as Jane Fletcher points out, Valentine chooses him above a more conventionally attractive male. But not only that, in whatever architectural guise he is, gardens, buildings or computers, he's always the best at it and at the top of his profession. How often is anyone fat ever portrayed in a positive light both as being talented and attractive to the opposite sex? I feel that both Valentine and Casaubon are an antidote to the long-limbed, super attractive, clean living heroes of, say, Anne McCaffrey's et al Sassinak trilogy? And, if I might mention some other media at this point, Roswell High just started on terrestrial TV in the UK and that, from the first episode, is stuffed full of shiny, plastic, glossy white-toothed, beautiful, according to current media ideas of beauty, adults playing kids. That's far more representative of a hatred of anyone who steps outside a very narrow definition of attractive, let alone fat. My copy of Scholars and Soldiers (Orbit paperback, 1995 reprint, ISBN 1-85723-263-1) has a picture of Valentine on the front, drawn by John Avon. I think this picture emphasises that while Valentine is attractive, she's not young. I've always pictured her as mid-thirties at the youngest and this illustration shows a face with enough lines to give it character, rather than being yet another forgettable plastic Barbie. As for the lesbian issue, I didn't really pick this up on my readings and haven't reread them recently. I do remember interpreting Valentine's relationship with Desire-of-the-Lord-Guillaime as not being bad because it was a lesbian relationship but because Valentine knew that what she was doing was wrong because of other ramifications (wasn't it political?) but she goes ahead anyway. I thought it was more about infatuation and that the person she is infatuated with is of the same sex wasn't the issue. Maybe, I'm just naive. :-) Although thinking about Ash (and I'm very impressed that SC read the weighty tome in the bath), there is another lesbian character who, as I recall, doesn't have a happy relationship either. Lesley Hall wrote: > What REALLY annoyed me about this was that MG set it up > that her viewpoint character was suffering from sporadic > amnesia by the time of the sequel, as the result of some > kind of treatment (?speeded-up language learning) > undertaken in the course of her professional duties. If she > hadn't forgotten huge chunks of what had happened in > _Golden Witchbreed_ there wouldn't have been much > story. SPOILERS follow for GW/AL: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I thought that the memory loss was a deliberate ploy by the Hexenmeister when Christie was in the Brown Tower. Her memory loss wasn't her being stupid and just forgetting what had happened but inflicted on her, partly to protect her. I find it part of the tragedy of the book that this memory loss/false memory was done for protection but it becomes the undoing of Orthe. Like Jane Fletcher I wanted a different ending to Ancient Light. I wanted them to be saved and I fought against it every step of the way and was disbelieving when the cavalry, in whatever form, didn't appear over the horizon when all appeared to be lost. But then I don't read Mary Gentle for the comfort of knowing that all is for the best in the best of all possible words. I read Anne McCaffrey and others for having everything sorted out and tidied up by the end. I read Mary Gentle to be challenged and to have some of my expectations upset. I didn't want Ruric to have betrayed Christie either in Golden Witchbreed and I cried for them both and the gulf separated them despite all they had shared. My feeling about these books is that they are tragedy in the Greek sense (if I'm interpreting that right) of an inescapable doom, caused not by malice but by misunderstanding and the acts of people who are trying their best. The doom is inescapable not because of a malign Fate (as in the Greek myths), but because people's actions come out of what they are and what they are forced into by their own ideas of what is right. As SC says (and I'm impressed you could read the weighty tome in the bath!), if you don't like lots of descriptions of gore and blood and endless use of the word "fuck", then you probably won't enjoy Ash. I've read it and there were times when I skimmed some of the bloody battle scenes and wished that a character could open his or her mouth without uttering an expletive. But that's just me and doesn't mean it's bad writing. Far from it, it creates an atmosphere that we aren't allowed to forget or gloss over. These people lived with this every day and Mary Gentle doesn't let us escape from the fact that their lives were full of odours that we avoid and are embarassed about today. Hope you all don't mind the long message. All IMHO of course. Kat W kjw@whitecrow.demon.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 18:51:49 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Organization: Microsoft Corporation Subject: Gregory Maguire How's that for bizarre, that Rudy would nominate Gregory Maguire's Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister at the same time I nominate Wicked. Does that constitute synchronicity or just a coincidence? What I like about Maguire's writing style is its complexity. I was so disappointed in the simplistic presentation of Singer From the Sea that it was a delight to immerse myself in the twists and turns and unforeseen sidestreets presented in Wicked. There are no cardboard characters, everyone has nuance. There are no white or black hats to emphasize the qualities of the characters. We find out more about each one as the book progresses. I know Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister will be one of the next books I read. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.