From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thu Jul 12 20:24:59 2001 Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 07:39:58 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0009C" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 04:50:37 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: What I just read: The Invisible Ring Book Review Comments: To: fsf-list@egroups.com Comments: cc: WomensFantasySciFi@egroups.com, amazons@egroups.com, fantasy@egroups.com, fantasybookclub@onelist.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought I'd share before this review got posted at The SF Site for which I review regularly. Thanks. Amy aharlib@worldnet.att.net The Invisible Ring by Anne Bishop (ROC/Penguin, NY, Oct. 2000, $6.99, mass market paperback, ISBN#: 0-451-45802-8). Anne Bishop, author of the award-winning Black Jewels Trilogy, returns to the Realms for this standalone prequel, the setting being a pre-industrial world where magic equals power and social status is pre-eminent, the course of a person's life determined by the color of the jewel one wears as revealed in an occult birthright ritual. The Realm of Hayll is under the rule of the ruthless, sadistic Queen Dorothea who seeks to increase her territory, to do this she controls (just barely) the dangerous but irresistably attractive Daemon Sadi who plays a small but significant role in the plot (fans of the previously written books will be glad to know). The male protagonist is Jared, a youthful Red-Jeweled Warlord who, captured at 18 and forced to serve 9 torturous years as a pleasure slave, murders his owner-queen and escapes, only to be caught and auctioned off into slavery again. A formidable Gray-Jeweled Queen, the female protagonist, shows up at the last minute and purchases him, ostensibly to add to her stable of idiosyncratically selected slaves---but Jared's new mistress and her entourage are not what they seem. Their true nature is gradually revealed on the way home as Dorothea's forces attack the group, forcing them to take a desperate trip cross-country. The 'Gray Lady' turns out to be Lia, a leader of the resistance against Dorothea's domination, a movement centered in the Territory of Dena Nehele where Lia plans to give her now-liberated saves a chance to live in freedom. Their inevitable gratitude virtually guarantees participation in aiding the fight to be independent. Along the way to the literally gut-wrenching and suspenseful climax of the story, there is plenty of adventure; romance (between Jared and Lia); dazzling wizardly pyrotechnics and internal workings of Bishop's unique and fascinating hierarchical magic system; and plenty of highly-charged, emotional character development often shown in scenes of totally non-gratuitous explicit eroticism sometimes quite sadistic on the part of the antagonists. The narrative shifts point of view at intervals from the heroic Lia, Jared and their colorful, distinctive supporters to Dorothea and Lord Krelis, Master of the Queen's guard, equally vivid, fully-fleshed out and believable villains. The plot strands' convergence is skillfully handled, building tension and suspense right up until the end when Lord Krelis and his forces confront Lia, Jared and their intrepid band bolstered by citizens of Dena Nehele, an inevitable encounter after the pursuit/evasion scenarios that provided much of the momentum of the tale. What makes Bishop's books transcend the formulas of the otherworld fantasy-adventure sub-genre to which they belong, are her distinctively conceived, intricate societal and magic structure rich in strongly dark elements balanced by the firm belief in ideals like loyalty and love; and particularly the stories' intriguing, cleverly conceived often amusingly inverted gender roles as exemplified in the eponymous artifact---an invisible version of the cock-ring used by powerful witches to control their males. The characters are also especially interesting, Bishop being superb at depicting their essence through dialogue which can often be quite witty or emotionally heartwarming or chilling at the right moments. Then there's the author's overall sublime skill as a writer blending the darkly macabre with spine-tingling emotional intensity, mesmerizing magic, lush sensuality, and exciting action all set in a thoroughly detailed invented world of cultures in conflict based on ingeniously reversed genre cliches. 'The Invisible Ring', for newcomers to Bishop's work, will serve as an enticement, whetting the appetite to explore more of the Realms in The Black Jewels Trilogy, while those who have already been entranced by the trio of titles will find herein a satisfying supplement. Either way one approaches this book, it and it's predecessors are genuine gems of fantasy much to be prized! ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:54:04 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Nominiation Period Intermediate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I don't have access to email over the weekend, so here's the present state of the nominations, 3 so far (listed below). I encourage you to add to that (remember, we will select 4 books). Books can be nominated until Monday, 18 September (incl.). -- Gregory Maguire: Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister. Paperback - 384 pages (October 2000) Regan Books; ISBN: 0060987529; List Price: $15.00 Gregory Maguire: Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West. Douglas Smith (Illustrator), Retail Price: $14.00, Paperback, 406pp., ISBN: 0060987103, Publisher: HarperCollins Publishers, Incorporated, Pub. Date: September 1996 Jane Yolen: The Books of Great Alta. List Price: $16.95, 448 pages (April 1997), St. Martin's Press; ISBN: 031286258X -- The comments of the reviewers can be looked up at http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/bdg_nom_0900.htm Have a nice weekend, Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:16:51 -0600 Reply-To: rudileon@earthlink.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rudy Leon Subject: BDG: Singer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I've been thinking about that lack of discussion problem, and I'm wondering if it isn't because we always seem to dislike so much the books being read for BDG -- Tepper certainly included! There's no doubt that she ahs certain priorities, and that these have become more and more prevalent over the years, or maybe, and here's a point for discussion, they haven't become more prevalent, they've just become her standard, and are therefore more visible. For the sake of my discussion here, it doesn't really matter which is the case. Let's just say out front that Tepper has certain concerns, and those concerns will always be so present in her work as to form the template around which she writes. Divergence would be discussion-worthy, but conformity, not so much. So, pointing out that she did it again doesn't really foster much discussion. These concerns: strong women living in worlds that have been utterly destroyed in some way by the actions of men as society; a harsh environmental situation which plays a large role in the plot; there's usually A Good Man; religion is important to the destruction of the world *and also* to it's potential for re-creation/re- construction. Usually, some sort of biological determinism in the heroine. Most of this stuff is present in a very heavy-handed way after the 4th Tepper book. So, given the template, how's Singer from the Sea? I thought it was pretty OK. The rules of the world are very clear in the author's mind as she builds her story. Women are allowed to be strong in certain ways (household, usually) in the upper classs -- I like that one of the ways the ineptitude and socially out-of-place-ness of Genevieve's father is shown is by his assumptions that women are useless pretty containers, and all the problems he would have had in court society without her help. I like that Genevieve was the sort of strong woman who realized that necessity was more important than making it on your own, and that asking for help was important and rewarded. I like that I was somehow able to buy that folks in this world had never picked up on the fact that all their elder statesmen never seemed to die. I disliked that everything that happened fed into the plot -- the slave in the archives (who reminds me know terribly of that freed house- elf in harry potter 3 & 4), the existence of the underground cache... I like that I was surprised when they showed up to save the day! Tepper went one step past the expected, and was able to surprise me. Someone asked a few days (weeks?) back about how women came to be so complacent about the way their lifes were being misused. I started thinking about it, and realized that steps might have been taken in the past of the book, and that Tepper states the rule, and doesn't play it up (subtlety? she didn't even get what she was doing? you pick). If lots and lots of women were dying in childbirth (not so unusual), and significantly more were dying off the homestead, someone might assert a tradition that said that pregnant women shouldn't travel. But wait, the men are callous, and make the women travel anyway. Revision: children born *not on the homestead* can't be declared legitimate heirs! that should work, men want legitimate heirs, women secure their futures by producing legitimate heirs, and viola! no one should want to or be able to make pregnant women travel! So the rule serves two purposes: most women don't want to take the risk and won't go. Willful, independent- and reform- minded women (uppity!) *will* go. Those who go, die. Evil men rid the world of uppity women.... (thought so much more articulately in my head, much less sarcastic, the beauty of the subversion of the rule laid out so crystal clear.... a writer I am not! but a very good thinker...) More thoughts about Tepper? Rudy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 13:27:36 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Mary Gentle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As a Mary Gentle fan, (see my e-address) this pushes > me out of lurkdom. :-) > I loved Rats and Gargoyles and Golden Witchbreed and Ancient Light because of the complexity and realism amidst the fantastic in them. I have all the rest of her books waiting for me to get around to them. Looking forward to it. Amy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 14:10:31 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: responses to list/Singer In-Reply-To: <39C20523.21449.4B9BCC@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I thought that the reason I didn't respond to the posting about lack of postings a few days ago was that I was so busy, but this posting makes me think there are other reasons.... >I've been thinking about that lack of discussion problem, and I'm >wondering if it isn't because we always seem to dislike so much >the books being read for BDG -- (Rudy Leon) And now I realize that I wasn't posting because of my frustration with the nature of the postings. I haven't made many postings recently -- I don't always have time to read the BDG selection and while, in theory, that's not supposed to limit discussion, it does seem to. My sense of things is that quite a few postings are critical of books -- and whether postings are critical or not, no real discussion seems to emerge, more just a set of isolated postings. I don't know if there's any way to solve this problem. I don't want 100% marshmallow postings, all sugary sweetness either, but the tone sometimes seems to be not only critical but presented as the only way to read a book. If there's any value to this sort of forum, surely it's hearing/understanding how different readers can respond so differently to books, to learn from other readers what we might have missed (and that can include good things and problematic things) in a book, get ideas for more reading, and overall just enjoy all the different approaches and ideas that can go into various kinds of feminist science fiction. And, I emphasize, learning how many books are out there to read. I happen to love Tepper's work for the most part (some of the books strike me as weaker than the others -- some stronger), and think that while she (as do most writers) certainly has her points to make, she's also able to diverge at times in interesting ways. I love how, at the end of SIX MOON DANCE, I and I think other readers were fooled into thinking that the culture was killing their girl children which was not at all the case, showing how our own ideologies can fool us! My favorite Tepper......coming down to the trilogies these days. The Jinian, Marianne, and the series that's not quite a trilogy by traditional definitions, Grass/Stones/Sideshow (as an academic, I LOVE the view Tepper presents of university faculty thinking they can create a superior society and refusing to listen to the "engineer" technician) are incredible. Part of how we respond to books is what we bring as readers--and one of the reasons I so find her work compelling is that I was born in 1955, raised in a small town in Idaho, informed from birth that I was supposed to marry as soon as possible and have children, immersed in an anti-intellectual environment, with all or any knowledge of various sexualities suppressed so successfully that I was in college before I even learned that there was such a thing as "homosexuality," so suppressed that I was not able to come to an understanding of my own sexuality until I was nearly thirty -- and all this even though I was raised in a family that was well off for the time/place (my father was a university professor, Dean, at the land-grant university), expected to go to college (to meet a better class of men?????), and included both race and class privilege (being white and middle class). Even after I escaped (well, my parents' divorce sure freed things up for me), and went to a school and in a degree of my own choice (English -- my father said he wouldn't pay for me to take English, so I took History, then Classical Studies) -- I remember years of college where I read numerous male writers, but no female writers in my courses (in the late seventies/early eighties). The "world" Tepper creates is familiar to me because I inhabited a version of it during my childhood. Even with regard to ecological issues/pollution linked to patriarchy...well, I live in Texas at the moment where all the oldest/most polluting factories have been excused from current standards and grandfathered in. Doesn't seem all that far-fetched to me to equate male-dominated/industrial societies with pollution and destruction of the ecology. So while some might question how women decided to "give up" their rights or (on this plane of reality) decided not to push for rights (and all my doctoral work involved how class, ethnicity, and "race" are involved with any questions of gender, and I know how complex that is and keep looking for science fiction that deals with it), I'm not surprised. I know from experience how difficult it is to go against everything around you and question what is expected of you since I spent a good part of my life thinking I was crazy. One of the most important validations I had was science fiction, including STAR TREK (ok, now looking back, the original series looks sexist, but it was pretty amazing at the time), Andre Norton, Joanna Russ (who I found when I was 14 and was one of the writers who convinced me I was NOT insane), and a few others... During those earlier years, only a handful of women were publishing science fiction (or much of anything else) -- it's wonderful to look around these days and see how that has changed, along with everything else. So much great stuff out there, and I used to get names and ideas for reading from this list, but that doesn't seem to be happening any more. I've been sort of hanging on out of loyalty or habit or something, but I just don't know anymore. Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 22:01:32 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Heather Stark Subject: BDG SINGER FROM THE SEA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm a new lurker - but I suspect, along with others, that the reason why there hasn't been a roaring trade in remarks about Singer from the Sea is that there ain't a lot to be said about it. Here's my not a lot. The book is a blend of three elements: (1) an action-danger/romance/fairy tale plot, which gallops along, and dragged me along despite myself. [the romance element in SFTS reminds me of Kate Elliot - also my embarassed reaction to liking it. as in: ooh! press those buttons! yes! oooh, there's a hero! loverly! and gosh it's all idealogically correct! even more loverly! uh, whoops, you're pressing my buttons a bit *too hard*! but it's loverly! and it's OK 'cause it correct. ennit....] (2) black and white goodies and baddies entangled in this good ole fashioned plot [the characters aren't interesting. instead, they're emblematic. no time left over from their signalling function for any ambiguities or conflicts.] (3) the plot is used to illustrate a radical and yet highly sentimental polemic [saved by cetaceans...yeah, right. next please. gaia. how nice.] Inspection of my bookcase reveals six other Teppers. And you might well ask: why buy Tepper, only to whine about what she writes? Like...what's my problem? My problem is that I read Grass, and was entirely impressed. Ever since, I've been buying Tepper hoping to find something that I liked as much. (I'd stopped - having found it unrewarding- but was inspired to have another go by BDG.) So...what did I like better about Grass, compared to Singer from the Sea? (and compared to the other Teppers sitting there on my shelf waiting for a better life with a less grumpy owner...) Let me just quote lazily from the cover blurb of the UK Corgi edition - 'Marjorie Yrarier is one of the most interseting and likeable heroines in modern science fiction' NY Times Book Review This isn't something I can say about whatserface. I remembered Majorie's name, after nine years. And I can't remember whatserface's. That's the problem. cheers, Heather ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:38:47 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG SINGER FROM THE SEA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/16/00 5:07:13 PM, heather.stark@VIRGIN.NET writes: << (3) the plot is used to illustrate a radical and yet highly sentimental polemic [saved by cetaceans...yeah, right. next please. gaia. how nice.] >> Oooh, golly. "Sentimental"??? Just at the time when whales are once more under the guns. I didn't think it sentimental. I continue to like Tepper's work, even though I know there will be a message punched pretty hard. Well, hell! the message is needed and she does it well. I like the tidiness of her work, although I could imagine someone else would not. You mention "romance" and Kate Elliott in the same breath with -- what? -- a bit of dismissal? Elliott is one of my favorites. She's a wonderful story-teller, and, really, that's why I read fiction -- for the story. I have a rule of thumb for Elliott's books: Do not start to read a new Kate Elliott book after 11 o'clock. I'll stick by my guns that Maguire's Wicked is a better, more complicated, richer book than Ugly Stepsister. best, phoebe wray ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 09:06:51 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: BDG SINGER FROM THE SEA In-Reply-To: <011101c02021$4b6e3fe0$1a49fd3e@has-home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:01 PM 16/09/00 +0100, Heather Stark wrote: >I'm a new lurker - but I suspect, along with others, that the >reason why there hasn't been a roaring trade in remarks about >Singer from the Sea is that there ain't a lot to be said about it. I have to agree Heather:) Besides I didn't bother reading it! I also have several Tepper books on my shelves, but I must have overdosed at one time, as I can't really dredge up any more interest in what has become a "formula". Gate to Women's Country is a classic, and for me, Grass & Six Moon Dance stand out a little as they had some good characterisation, but generally her themes have become repetitive and formulaic, and her characters increasingly cardboard cut-outs. Don't get me wrong, I still like Tepper - and I hope her hammering her message home, in her admittedly very prolific output, grabs new readers with every new book. Julieanne:) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 18:08:23 +0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Angela Barclay Subject: Re: What I just read: The Invisible Ring Book Review Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ---------- >From: Amy Harlib >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: [*FSF-L*] What I just read: The Invisible Ring Book Review >Date: Thu, Sep 14, 2000, 8:50 AM > >Thought I'd share before this review got posted at The SF Site for which I >review regularly. Thanks. Amy >aharlib@worldnet.att.net >The Invisible Ring by Anne Bishop (ROC/Penguin, NY, Oct. 2000, $6.99, mass >market paperback, ISBN#: 0-451-45802-8). >Anne Bishop, author of the award-winning Black Jewels Trilogy, returns to >the Realms for this standalone prequel, the setting being a pre-industrial >world where magic equals power and social status is pre-eminent, the course >of a person's life determined by the color of the jewel one wears as >revealed in an occult birthright ritual. The Realm of Hayll is under the >rule of the ruthless, sadistic Queen Dorothea who seeks to increase her >territory, to do this she controls (just barely) the dangerous but >irresistably attractive Daemon Sadi who plays a small but significant role >in the plot (fans of the previously written books will be glad to know). >The male protagonist is Jared, a youthful Red-Jeweled Warlord who, captured >at 18 and forced to serve 9 torturous years as a pleasure slave, murders his >owner-queen and escapes, only to be caught and auctioned off into slavery >again. A formidable Gray-Jeweled Queen, the female protagonist, shows up >at the last minute and purchases him, ostensibly to add to her stable of >idiosyncratically selected slaves---but Jared's new mistress and her >entourage are not what they seem. Their true nature is gradually revealed >on the way home as Dorothea's forces attack the group, forcing them to take >a desperate trip cross-country. The 'Gray Lady' turns out to be Lia, a >leader of the resistance against Dorothea's domination, a movement centered >in the Territory of Dena Nehele where Lia plans to give her now-liberated >saves a chance to live in freedom. Their inevitable gratitude virtually >guarantees participation in aiding the fight to be independent. >Along the way to the literally gut-wrenching and suspenseful climax of the >story, there is plenty of adventure; romance (between Jared and Lia); >dazzling wizardly pyrotechnics and internal workings of Bishop's unique and >fascinating hierarchical magic system; and plenty of highly-charged, >emotional character development often shown in scenes of totally >non-gratuitous explicit eroticism sometimes quite sadistic on the part of >the antagonists. >The narrative shifts point of view at intervals from the heroic Lia, Jared >and their colorful, distinctive supporters to Dorothea and Lord Krelis, >Master of the Queen's guard, equally vivid, fully-fleshed out and believable >villains. The plot strands' convergence is skillfully handled, building >tension and suspense right up until the end when Lord Krelis and his forces >confront Lia, Jared and their intrepid band bolstered by citizens of Dena >Nehele, an inevitable encounter after the pursuit/evasion scenarios that >provided much of the momentum of the tale. >What makes Bishop's books transcend the formulas of the otherworld >fantasy-adventure sub-genre to which they belong, are her distinctively >conceived, intricate societal and magic structure rich in strongly dark >elements balanced by the firm belief in ideals like loyalty and love; and >particularly the stories' intriguing, cleverly conceived often amusingly >inverted gender roles as exemplified in the eponymous artifact---an >invisible version of the cock-ring used by powerful witches to control their >males. >The characters are also especially interesting, Bishop being superb at >depicting their essence through dialogue which can often be quite witty or >emotionally heartwarming or chilling at the right moments. Then there's the >author's overall sublime skill as a writer blending the darkly macabre with >spine-tingling emotional intensity, mesmerizing magic, lush sensuality, and >exciting action all set in a thoroughly detailed invented world of cultures >in conflict based on ingeniously reversed genre cliches. 'The Invisible >Ring', for newcomers to Bishop's work, will serve as an enticement, whetting >the appetite to explore more of the Realms in The Black Jewels Trilogy, >while those who have already been entranced by the trio of titles will find >herein a satisfying supplement. Either way one approaches this book, it and >it's predecessors are genuine gems of fantasy much to be prized! > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 22:53:01 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Re: BDG Tepper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I LIKED Singer from the Sea. I agree that Grass is a more memorable book, but Tepper is welcome to push my buttons anytime. ---s ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 11:14:52 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jane Fletcher Subject: BDG Nomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would like to nominate _Ash: A Secret History_ by Mary Gentle. Reviews etc can be found on amazon. I am nominating this book for several reasons, some of which relate to recent threads in the list. The thread on Mary Gentle has finally pushed me into the decision to read the book (I^Òve been putting it off for a while). From past experience with her work I know I will be shocked, confused and enlightened, and possibly all three simultaneously, before I^Òm a third of the way through. It is exactly the sort of situation where I would benefit from having a group to share my impressions and reactions. The thread concerning the lack of discussion has set me thinking. I suspect the reason is partly that the selected books are too uncontroversial for a feminist discussion group. Many of the books selected would probably raise a long and heated debate on a white male supremacist list, but a book with the central thrust that ^Ñwomen aren^Òt always treated well by society and should have equal rights^Ò isn^Òt going to produce anything more than a shrug of agreement on this list. Most of the debate I have seen here could be summarised as ^ÑI agree with the ideas in the book but I felt the author was too simplistic in presenting the argument^Ò. >From what I can see in the reviews of Ash there is something in there to offend everyone. I said above that in reading the book I expect to be enlightened. I would like to offer my first thoughts on the book before I even get as far as ordering it. It has already been said that the description of Casaubon is an antidote to the over-glamorising of the human body which is far more degrading to people who don^Òt fit the prescribed shape. From reading the reviews of Ash it has really struck me how much war is over-glamorising in all forms of fiction. Even books which are anti-war tend to strike the pose of suffering protagonists shedding tortured tears over clean dead bodies. Ash appears to be deliberately offensive. War should be offensive. I am hoping to be offended, and to be offended in ways I am not expecting. Availability UK List Price: £14.99 Paperback - 1113 pages (15 June, 2000) Victor Gollancz Science Fiction; ISBN: 0575069015 US List Price: £6.99 Mass Market Paperback - 424 pages (October 5, 1999) Eos (Mass Market); ISBN: 0380788691 I understand that the book is sold complete in the UK but in sections in the US. I would propose that, since 1113 pages might be a bit on the long side, the discussion should be limited to what forms the first book in the US. I^Òm not sure if it will be obvious to anyone buying the book in the UK where the division is, but I^Òm sure someone over there can tell us in the UK so we will know to put out spoiler warnings if we stray to later chapters in our comments. Jane ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 14:36:57 +0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Angela Barclay Subject: BDG Nomination Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3052046219_675368_MIME_Part" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3052046219_675368_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable >With the nomination members should provide the following information: >- author: Angela Carter >- title:_Nights at the Circus_ >- publisher: Random House, Viking and Penguin >- list price: $14.00 Canadian (Random House); 4.51 Pounds (?) >- ISBN: 009 938 8618 Carter, Angela. Nights at the Circus. (1985.) London: Chatto & Windus, 1984; New York: Viking, 1985; New York: Penguin, 1986. I would like to nominate Angela Carter=B9s _Nights at the Circus_ which I discovered and was very delighted by last summer. I would describe it as sumptous, satirical, baroque and bawdy. On a very basic level it is about the adventures of a mysterious trapeeze artist who grew up in a brothel; bu= t under the surface lies an interesting commentary on self, sexuality and the nature of storytelling itself. I would love to re-read it and discuss it with the group. Here are some other reviews: 1. This was located @ http://mot.cprost.sfu.ca/~visible/susan/acarter.html I have to confess that I have written my share of verbose papers on Angela Carter-- perhaps I have written even more than my share of them! But, I decided to refrain from sharing those little works with you--boring you to tears with my little theories about what a great writer she was. Instead, I should like to pack these pages with anecdotes, fun facts and general tributary prose... Angela Carter managed to create a remarkable combination of the serious and the Carnivalesque in her work. Her later writing in particular is bawdy and humorous for all its complex allusions and structural myths. My two favorites are Wise Chidren and Nights at the Circus, the latter of which could be said to tie into the whole notion of Scheherazade telling a skeptical Sultan fascinating stories in the course of a long night. 2. This is the description of Carter=B9s work which appears in the FSF alphabetized bibliographies: Carter wrote many novels and short stories before her death in 1992. Her short stories often contained a re-telling of fables, myths and fairy tales from a gender-oriented perspective. Sometimes criticized by people who thought she offered negative depictions of women, she nevertheless created new and thought-provoking versions of many traditional stories. Me, I like her work a lot; especially her short fiction. For instance, "Wolf-Alice" in The Bloody Chamber, or her retelling of the Lizzie Borden story which I think was in Saints and Sinners. Carter could take those old fairy tales an= d retell them, twisting the Disney-fied versions back to their original gruesomeness and simultaneously revealing the horror and humor of the world= . Like a British Flannery O'Connor on a twisted concoction of speed and acid.= --lq, 5/26/95; rev. 9/7/97. --MS_Mac_OE_3052046219_675368_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable BDG Nomination
>With the nomination members should provide the following informatio= n:
>- author: Angela Carter
>- title:_Nights at the Circus_
>- publisher: Random House, Viking and Penguin
>- list price: $14.00 Canadian (Random House); 4.51 Pounds (?)
>- ISBN: 009 938 8618

Carter, Angela.  Nights at the Circus. (1985.) London: Chatto &am= p; Windus, 1984; New York: Viking, 1985; New York: Penguin, 1986.

I would like to nominate Angela Carter=B9s _Nights at the Circus_ which I dis= covered and was very delighted by last summer.  I would describe it as = sumptous, satirical, baroque and bawdy.  On a very basic level it is ab= out the adventures of a mysterious trapeeze artist who grew up in a brothel;= but under the surface lies an interesting commentary on self, sexuality and= the nature of storytelling itself.  I would love to re-read it and dis= cuss it with the group.

Here are some other reviews:

1.  This was located @ http://mot.cprost.sfu.ca/~visible/susan/acarter= .html

I have to confess that I have written my share of verbose papers on Angela = Carter-- perhaps I have written even more than my share of them! But, I deci= ded to refrain from sharing those little works with you--boring you to tears= with my little theories about what a great writer she was. Instead, I shoul= d like to pack these pages with anecdotes, fun facts and general tributary p= rose...

Angela Carter managed to create a remarkable combination of the serious and= the Carnivalesque in her work. Her later writing in particular is bawdy and= humorous for all its complex allusions and structural myths.

My two favorites are Wise Chidren and Nights at the Circus, the latter of w= hich could be said to tie into the whole notion of Scheherazade telling a sk= eptical Sultan fascinating stories in the course of a long night.

2.  This is the description of Carter=B9s work which appears in the FSF = alphabetized bibliographies:

Carter wrote many novels and short stories before her death in 1992. Her sh= ort stories often contained a re-telling of fables, myths and fairy tales fr= om a gender-oriented perspective.  Sometimes criticized by people who t= hought she offered negative depictions of women, she nevertheless created ne= w and thought-provoking versions of many traditional stories. Me, I like her= work a lot; especially her short fiction. For instance, "Wolf-Alice&qu= ot; in The Bloody Chamber, or her retelling of the Lizzie Borden story which= I think was in Saints and Sinners. Carter could take those old fairy tales = and retell them, twisting the Disney-fied versions back to their original gr= uesomeness and simultaneously revealing the horror and humor of the world. L= ike a British Flannery O'Connor on a twisted concoction of speed and acid. &= nbsp;--lq, 5/26/95; rev. 9/7/97.


        







--MS_Mac_OE_3052046219_675368_MIME_Part-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:01:55 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Nominiation Period Intermediate 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT So far 5 books are nominated (listed below). Any more suggestions for the next BDG round? Hurry, there's only one day left to nominate books. -- Angela Carter: Nights at the Circus. List Price: $12.95, Paperback - 294 pages (January 1993), Viking Pr; ISBN: 0140077030 Mary Gentle: A Secret History : The Book of Ash 1. US, List Price: £6.99, Mass Market Paperback - 424 pages (October 5, 1999), Eos (Mass Market); ISBN: 0380788691 (Ash: A Secret History. UK, List Price: £14.99, Paperback - 1113 pages (15 June, 2000), Victor Gollancz Science Fiction; ISBN: 0575069015. (contains books 1-3!)) Gregory Maguire: Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister. Paperback - 384 pages (October 2000) Regan Books; ISBN: 0060987529; List Price: $15.00 Gregory Maguire: Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West. Douglas Smith (Illustrator), Retail Price: $14.00, Paperback, 406pp., ISBN: 0060987103, Publisher: HarperCollins Publishers, Incorporated, Pub. Date: September 1996 Jane Yolen: The Books of Great Alta. List Price: $16.95, 448 pages (April 1997), St. Martin's Press; ISBN: 031286258X -- The comments of the reviewers can be looked up at http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/bdg_nom_0900.htm Petra Petra Mayerhofer - petra_x@geocities.com -- Feministische phantastisch-utopische Literatur http://www.fortunecity.de/tatooine/metropolis/100/feministische-science-fiction.html ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:02:20 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Heather Hacker Subject: Starhawk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01C0216E.CDDC2610" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C0216E.CDDC2610 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all- Since we have to choose four books and there are only five nominated, I thought I would add to the bunch. I recommend the book The Fifth Sacred Thing because it is a feminist utopia book by the author of The Spiral Dance. I bought the book years ago and have yet to read it - so, I guess I'm nominating it for an excuse to read it... but, I bought it because feminist utopia/dystopia literature has fascinated me ever since reading Memoirs of a Survivor and The Handmaid's Tale. Here's the information from Amazon... Heather The Fifth Sacred Thing Amazon's Price: $13.45 Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours. See larger photo Paperback Reprint edition (July 1994) Bantam Doubleday Dell Pub (Trd Pap); ISBN: 0553373803 Editorial Reviews Synopsis An epic tale of freedom and slavery, love and war, and the potential futures of humankind tells of a twenty-first century California clan caught between two clashing worlds, one based on tolerance, the other on repression. Reprint. Synopsis Here is an unforgettable epic that brilliantly dramatizes the choices we must make in order to insure the survial of our selves, our society, and our planet. This powerful novel of ideas and the future of human life itself is written by the bestselling author of The Spiral Dance. Customer Reviews Engaging story of eco-utopia against fascist state, November 4, 1997 Reviewer: marroni@hinckley.mhs.compuserve.com from Boston I, too had this book on my shelf for several years before I actually read it. Although it obviously sounded good enough at the time I bought it, I feared that it would be preachy and overbearing. It was nothing of the sort. The characters are complex; flawed at times, saintly at others. The story is compelling, combining plots about the personal growth of the various characters, adventure stories as Bird escapes from prison and Madrone ventures into the southern wilds to help the freedom fighters, and the ultimate show down between the San Franciscans and the Stewards. It is a bit simplistic, perhaps, but that didn't stop me from wishing things in reality were more like they are in Maya and Madrone's world. The attempts to portray this world as one free of any racial or sexual bigotry do get a bit heavy handed at times, but never so much that it interfered with my enjoyment of the story. I would recommend this book to anyone, and in fact immediately after I finished ran out and bought a copy to give as a gift this Christmas. This could change your life..., March 17, 1997 I've had this book on my shelf for three years, and finally decided to read it during my spring break. Wow. It's been too long since I loved a book so much that I found myself stopping between chapters to clasp it to my chest with a serene smile on my face. And, alternately, to have to put the book down because it was too intense, too painful to exist in the world she created. This has started me on a personal vision quest -- to find out more about living my life like Maya, Madrone, Bird and the rest. Thank you, Starhawk, I look forward to prequels and sequels... Heather Hacker Technical Writer Document Technologies (212) 619-4000 14 Wall St. 26th Floor New York, NY 10005 ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C0216E.CDDC2610 Content-Type: application/X-Microsoft-OLE-object; name="Picture" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Picture" 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAA EAAAAgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAAAAAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////9 ////BAAAAP7////+/////v////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////1IA bwBvAHQAIABFAG4AdAByAHkAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAWAAUA//////////8CAAAAFQMAAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABDG7VSQIcAB AwAAAIABAAAAAAAAAQBPAGwAZQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAoAAgH///////////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAFAAAAAAAAABDAE8ATgBUAEUATgBUAFMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEgACAQEAAAADAAAA/////wAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAAADAAAAAAAAAAAMATQBhAGkAbABTAHQAcgBl AGEAbQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYAAIB/////wQA AAD/////AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAwAAAAAAAAA/v// /wIAAAADAAAA/v////7////+//////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8BAAAC AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAA183GmgAAAAAAAH8BRwBAAgAAAABpVAEACQAAA0wAAAADABwAAAAAAAQAAAADAQYABQAAAAwC PQGdBgcAAAD8AgAAAAAAAAAABAAAAC0BAAAIAAAA+gIAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAC0BAQAcAAAA+wIM AAkAAAAAAJABAAAAAAACAgJNUyBTYW5zIFNlcmlmAIoBAAAKAA0AigENAIoBAAAKAAQAAAAtAQIA AwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAAAJ0GAAA+AQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAAEAAAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAFIAaQBj AGgARQBkAGkAdABGAGwAYQBnAHMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAcAAIA////////////////AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABQAA AAwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD///////////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP///////////////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA//////////// ////AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C0216E.CDDC2610-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:31:41 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Misha Bernard Subject: Re: BDG SINGER FROM THE SEA In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000916090651.00a4e7a0@pop.ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, this may not be fair to Julieanne, as she admitted she hasn't read _Singer_, but I have been thinking about it since the BDG started getting comments: How is the unbelievable naivete (as one person said) of the main character in SFTS different from the main character in _Gate to Women's Country_ and her lack of perception about what was really going on with the separate groups inside and outside the gate and manipulating selection? Is GTWC more of a 'classic' becase at that time (10 year difference, several books), we might not have been as sure of Tepper's ideas? I haven't figured it out. I would say that neither of those two books are my favorites, but that perhaps the one thing that would place SFTS higher in my list up with GTWC (there because it is a sex-segregated society with women in charge) is that in SFTS, the way that the subtleties of women forgoeing access to power/change (that's what I vote for, Rudy) is supposed to make the reader think (and counter) any ways that they may be doing it in their lives. misha On Sat, 16 Sep 2000, Julieanne wrote: > At 10:01 PM 16/09/00 +0100, Heather Stark wrote: > >I'm a new lurker - but I suspect, along with others, that the > >reason why there hasn't been a roaring trade in remarks about > >Singer from the Sea is that there ain't a lot to be said about it. > > I have to agree Heather:) > > Besides I didn't bother reading it! > > I also have several Tepper books on my shelves, but I must have overdosed > at one time, as I can't really dredge up any more interest in what has > become a "formula". > > Gate to Women's Country is a classic, and for me, Grass & Six Moon Dance > stand out a little as they had some good characterisation, but generally > her themes have become repetitive and formulaic, and her characters > increasingly cardboard cut-outs. > > Don't get me wrong, I still like Tepper - and I hope her hammering her > message home, in her admittedly very prolific output, grabs new readers > with every new book. > > Julieanne:) > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > Misha Bernard Cultural Studies PhD student mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason University ------------------------- -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- Ursula K. Le Guin "World Making" (1981) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:24:09 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kimberly Latta Subject: Starhawk/Charnas Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear List Members: I'd like to second Heather's suggestion that we read Starhawk's The Fifth Sacred Thing for all the reasons she mentions. I originally bought to book to teach it in a course on Feminist SF that focused on distopias, but found it finally too long to assign. Still, I'd like to read and discuss it as a text that continues the traditions of Charnas and others. Finally, I'd like to suggest that we talk about Suzy McKee Charnas's _The Conqueror's Child_ (Tor Books, August 2000). I've read it and loved it--but also found it a bit disconcerting. Would love to talk to you all about it. Amazon.com describes the book this way: Conqueror's Child is the fourth book in Suzy McKee Charnas's futuristic series. Like a smith at the forge, Charnas hammers out a neorustic dystopia where males brutally dominate females through rape-torture, forced labor, and sadism. Previously in the series, the fem-slave Alldera escapes the men-cities into the grassland wilderness where she is adopted by the Riding Women. These genetically-altered nomads are devoid of males, reproducing without them and producing only female children. They are also deadly with the bow and lance. With their help, Alldera invades the men-cities and frees the fems. Conqueror's Child begins here, with Sorrel, Alldera's daughter. Rape-conceived during Alldera's slave-days but born and raised free among the Riding Women, Sorrel yearns for a relationship with her hero-mother. For years Alldera kept Sorrel safe, far way, while she built a new society in the former men-cities. Though safe, Sorrel feels herself a misfit--a conqueror's daughter ignorant of battle. She bonds with a fellow misfit, an orphaned child of another escaped slave--a male child. Because he is shunned by the unisex horsewomen, Sorrel adopts him, resolving to find him a better life. With the child, Sorrel rides out for the cities where fems now rule and men still live. But there's danger in reunions. Sorrel will not only meet her mother but also two of her rapists. Either could be Sorrel's father, and either could betray her. The appeal of Conqueror's Child spans genres. Readers of both science fiction and women's studies will find it a powerful read in which institutionalized violence is examined through its very personal effects. However, though Charnas's skill lies in crafting the epic, characterization sometimes falls short, especially with minor personas who seem somewhat interchangeable. Regardless, Charnas's works belong among the SF luminaries for her even-handed examination of relationships and sexuality--themes negligently ignored for much of SF's history -- Kimberly Latta Saint Louis University In residence until December 31, 2000 at: The Folger Shakespeare Library 201 E. Capitol Street, NE Washington, DC 20003 ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:51:17 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Deborah A. Oosterhouse" Subject: Nomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to nominate Charles de Lint's urban fantasy version of *Jack the Giant Killer*. The originally published book is out of print, but *Jack the Giant Killer* is available as part one of *Jack of Kinrowan*: List Price: $14.95 Paperback - 384 pages (June 1999), Tor Books ISBN: 0312869592 (5.5" x 8.25" size) (My copy of *Jack of Kinrowan*, also from Tor, is a 4" x 6.75" copy of 474 pages that I picked up for $5.99 a few years back: ISBN 0812538986; Amazon.com lists it as being out of stock at the publisher so I don't know how widely available the smaller-sized version is.) Recently, some acquaintances have told me that, although they enjoy Charles de Lint's short stories, they don't like his novels as well. I'd be interested to know what some members of this group think. I'd also like to share people's thoughts on de Lint's version of the "Jack" of numerous fairy tales. FWIW, here are copies of the reviews from Amazon: This one is the best!, November 17, 1999 - Reviewer: A reader from Houston, Texas This was the first Charles de Lint book that I read (several years ago) and it is still my favorite. I just finished re-reading it for the umpteenth time, and it never gets old! He is one of the most imaginative writers I've read. (I mean, a fiaina sidhe halfling who plays saxophone in a rock band!) His characters are so vivid and real, that you feel like you've stepped into Faerie yourself! This one's a must! Amazing Meld of Urban Fantasy and Traditional Folklore, October 15, 1999 - Reviewer: Julia (julia@post.harvard.edu) from Boston, MA This book is so amazingly good it kills me. I've re-read it many, many times and I still love it to bits. I studied folklore in college, which means I've been known to get insanely crabby when fantasy authors screw up in describing the known folklore of various cultures. DeLint blends important information such as how to hide from unseelie creatures with the excitement of living in the city. All must read this book. You can't put this one down, January 5, 1999 - Reviewer: A reader from Boston, Massachusetts This is a whole new level for urban fantasy. Fast-paced and hair-raising, "Jack" has twists and turns that will keep you reading long past your bedtime. Jackie is one of the livliest characters I've ever read, and she drags the rest of her world into all of her adventures. Many of the characters in this book are drawn from traditional folklore, but De Lint gives them fresh, human (or not) faces. He has the power to make you believe in his world; you won't want to leave it. I loved this book, October 27, 1998 - Reviewer: A reader from San Francisco, California This book made me fall in love with Charles de Lint. Somehow, it makes the fantasy seem more effective to be set against the real urban setting of Ottawa, rather than the generic "somewhere" city of Newford that de Lint likes to use in his later work. The chararcters of Jackie Rowan and Kate Crackernuts are easy to empathize with. The story is fast paced and exiting. And, the fantasy is delightful! Deborah ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:00:03 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: BDG Singer From The Sea MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8B6D1B14E863A17E98A4A897" --------------8B6D1B14E863A17E98A4A897 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have to agree with Joyce-- that the writing was what put me off this book. I liked the over-the-top plot formulations, the blood/breast milk/immortality thing, and the misogynist society all worked well to keep me reading. What I didn't like was the use of dialogue to convey information. Though this is can make for tedious reading, it happens sometimes in sci-fi, and can be OK. But here, dialogue was conveying information woodenly, sometimes saying things we already knew. And sometimes making a character a cardboard cutout is acceptable, but that happened in this book too many times. It was too easy. Someone said that the characters are two-dimensional on purpose, but I didn't get the feeling that this novel was operating as an allegory, where the characters would represent ideas, and therefore be simplistic. This novel struck me as attempting to build a world with real people in it-- I thought it was going for realism. So in that sense, the characters failed for me. If it were more of a fairy tale or a surrealistic narrative, maybe that kind of wooden characterization would have worked for me. I have some Tepper on my bookshelves, waiting in my to-be-read shelves. This was the first novel I read by Tepper, and I'm disappointed and reluctant to dive into the others. Any suggestions on better Tepper novels? I'm hearing two things from the discussion-- that Grass and Gate to Women's Country are better, and that all operate on a similar formula. I like the formula, but didn't like the execution. Sorry to be critical. It's strange, I haven't like several books we've read in the BDG-- but I loved Kissing the Witch, and I liked Remnant Population as well as others. I don't expect to like everything nominated. But when I don't like something, I really welcome the opportunity to complain a bit, and articulate why it didn't work. That's one of the reasons I'm on the list, is to get suggestions on what to read and to compare notes, good and bad, with other readers. --Allyson Joyce Jones wrote: > I was surprised at Danny's reaction to the political comments in SFTS. This > must be your first Tepper, Danny. My favorite part of her writing is the > way she takes misogyny to its ultimate endpoint. She usually has the bad > guys showing their disbelief in the personhood of women by using and abusing > women in various ways. I think her books are directed at the > women-five-steps-behind-men group to show them just how damaging to human > beings this sort of thinking is. The idea of women being of secondary > importance to men is so prevalent in most literature that Tepper's > highlighting it is a necessary and refreshing turn. > > Unfortunately in SFTS I found the style to be so simplistic I was almost > embarrassed to read it. It seemed to be directed toward the Harry Potter > audience, and required no greater effort to follow than do those books -- > pure escapism if it weren't for the political comments. > > Joyce > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. --------------8B6D1B14E863A17E98A4A897 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have to agree with Joyce-- that the writing was what put me off this book.  I liked the over-the-top plot formulations, the blood/breast milk/immortality thing, and the misogynist society all worked well to keep me reading.

What I didn't like was the use of dialogue to convey information.  Though this is can make for tedious reading, it happens sometimes in sci-fi, and can be OK.  But here, dialogue was conveying information woodenly, sometimes saying things we already knew.

And sometimes making a character a cardboard cutout is acceptable, but that happened in this book too many times.  It was too easy.  Someone said that the characters are two-dimensional on purpose, but I didn't get the feeling that this novel was operating as an allegory, where the characters would represent ideas, and therefore be simplistic.  This novel struck me as attempting to build a world with real people in it-- I thought it was going for realism.  So in that sense, the characters failed for me.  If it were more of a fairy tale or a surrealistic narrative, maybe that kind of wooden characterization would have worked for me.

I have some Tepper on my bookshelves, waiting in my to-be-read shelves.  This was the first novel I read by Tepper, and I'm disappointed and reluctant to dive into the others.

Any suggestions on better Tepper novels?  I'm hearing two things from the discussion-- that Grass and Gate to Women's Country are better, and that all operate on a similar formula.

I like the formula, but didn't like the execution.  Sorry to be critical.  It's strange, I haven't like several books we've read in the BDG-- but I loved Kissing the Witch, and I liked Remnant Population as well as others. I don't expect to like everything nominated.  But when I don't like something, I really welcome the opportunity to complain a bit, and articulate why it didn't work.  That's one of the reasons I'm on the list, is to get suggestions on what to read and to compare notes, good and bad, with other readers.

--Allyson

Joyce Jones wrote:

I was surprised at Danny's reaction to the political comments in SFTS.  This
must be your first Tepper, Danny.  My favorite part of her writing is the
way she takes misogyny to its ultimate endpoint.  She usually has the bad
guys showing their disbelief in the personhood of women by using and abusing
women in various ways.  I think her books are directed at the
women-five-steps-behind-men group to show them just how damaging to human
beings this sort of thinking is.  The idea of women being of secondary
importance to men is so prevalent in most literature that Tepper's
highlighting it is a necessary and refreshing turn.

Unfortunately in SFTS I found the style to be so simplistic I was almost
embarrassed to read it.  It seemed to be directed toward the Harry Potter
audience, and required no greater effort to follow than do those books --
pure escapism if it weren't for the political comments.

Joyce

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--------------8B6D1B14E863A17E98A4A897-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:54:30 GMT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joell Smith Subject: Nomination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'd like to nominate Commitment Hour, by James Alan Gardner. Commitment Hour by James Alan Gardner List Price: $5.99 Publisher: Avon Books Mass Market Paperback - 343 pages (April 1998) ISBN: 0380798271 ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.01 x 6.89 x 4.20 As a transgender activist, I am always on the lookout for books that push the limits of our gender boundaries, and this is an interesting one. I heard some discussion of Commitment Hour at WisCon last year, and seems to rouse strong opinions. I also recommended it to a friend of mine, for her Gender Studies classes to read, and she said that the students have enjoyed it, and that it has started some good discussions in the class. Reviews have been mixed, and I agree that the book has its flaws, but it's a fun, engrossing read, and there's certainly plenty to talk about in it. The book cover says: With most of Earth's population long since departed for other planets, Tober Cove is a wonderful place to be--especially for Fullin, a musician. But Fullin is 20, and at that age, each person must make the most important decision in life. As he finds his idyllic existence threatened by dark secrets that will upend his beliefs, the time has come for Fullin to take an irrevocable stand and seal his fate forever. Most of the reviews I've found give away way too much info, but here's one that's pretty good: Set in the same universe as Gardners's Expendable, Commitment Hour takes place in a small village on post-emigration Earth, where the inhabitants have one unique feature- they change sex each year until age twenty, when they must choose male, female or hermaphrodite. CH traces this most important day in two people's lives, and it turns out to be a bit more wild than they expected. There are enough surprises in the book that telling much more of the plot would involve spoilers. Overall, it's a pretty good effort- the world is nicely worked, and the two main characters seem fairly well realized. The book falls down a bit on the rest of the characters- the Spark Lord especially seems to be amazingly clueless/stupid for a scientist, and many of the others seem to be cardboard cutouts used only to move the plot along. One point I did appreciate- those who choose hermaphrodite are tremendously oppressed, usually driven from the village or killed. It would have been very easy to make the hermaphroditic characters saints, just to drive home the "Discrimination is bad" angle. Many other writers would have done this but Gardner wisely avoids this trap. Joell Smith _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:53:40 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Nominiation Period CLOSED MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT The nomination period is closed. 9 books were nominated (see list below). I thank all nominators for taking the time for this. Terri Wakefield handles the voting and she will explain the process in an extra email. Please don't send your votes to the list. The comments of the reviewers can be looked up at http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/bdg_nom_0900.htm -- Angela Carter: Nights at the Circus. List Price: $12.95, Paperback - 294 pages (January 1993), Viking Pr; ISBN: 0140077030 Suzy McKee Charnas: The Conqueror's Child (The Holdfast Chronicles, Book 4). List Price: $14.95, Paperback - 432 pages (August 2000), Tor Books; ISBN: 0312869460 Charles de Lint: Jack of Kinrowan. List Price: $14.95, Paperback - 384 pages (June 1999), Tor Books, ISBN: 0312869592 (5.5" x 8.25" size) James Alan Gardner: Commitment Hour. List Price: $5.99, Publisher: Avon Books, Mass Market Paperback - 343 pages (April 1998), ISBN: 0380798271 Mary Gentle: A Secret History : The Book of Ash 1. US, List Price: £6.99, Mass Market Paperback - 424 pages (October 5, 1999), Eos (Mass Market); ISBN: 0380788691 (Ash: A Secret History. UK, List Price: £14.99, Paperback - 1113 pages (15 June, 2000), Victor Gollancz Science Fiction; ISBN: 0575069015. (contains books 1-3!)) Gregory Maguire: Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister. Paperback - 384 pages (October 2000) Regan Books; ISBN: 0060987529; List Price: $15.00 Gregory Maguire: Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West. Douglas Smith (Illustrator), Retail Price: $14.00, Paperback, 406pp., ISBN: 0060987103, Publisher: HarperCollins Publishers, Incorporated, Pub. Date: September 1996 Starhawk: The Fifth Sacred Thing. List Price: $14.95, Paperback Reprint edition (July 1994), Bantam Doubleday Dell Pub (Trd Pap); ISBN: 0553373803 Jane Yolen: The Books of Great Alta. List Price: $16.95, 448 pages (April 1997), St. Martin's Press; ISBN: 031286258X -- Finally, I want to thank all who shared their opinions and suggestions concerning the BDG (which does not mean that you have to stop there, more, more ;-) ). We will discuss them further within the BDG group (on- and offlist I think). The only definite change suggested so far is to regurlarly announce the BDG schedule and the next BDG book. That sounds simple enough but from experience I know that we have difficulties even with that (we will certainly try). We are 4 people who have organized the BDG now for 2 years and - as we have found out - even small tasks are too much after a while if you have to do them again and again. That's one of the reasons we want to broaden the organizing group. Is somebody out there who's ready to take over the announcing part for - say - the next 4 months? Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:36:41 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Heather Stark Subject: Re: BDG Singer from the Sea MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0101_01C0228A.14DC7F80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0101_01C0228A.14DC7F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable there are some themes in the commentary I'd like to pick up on... to do with Romance, Sentiment and Ideas Phoebe's advice not to start a Kate Elliot at 11pm is sound! and...it's liberating to think that liking romance needn't be embarassing.=20 But my cringe-threshold hasn't receded very far away. Don't know what the cover art for Singer from the Sea is like in the US. The VG trade paperback in the UK features a naked lady who looks like the flower child on the Clairol HerbalEssence bottle (circa late 60s/early 70s). She is encircled by two dolphin-like = creatures=20 with multiple dorsal fins. The whole ensemble forms a yin-yang symbol. To me - this is still real 'plain brown wrapper' stuff.=20 So I call it 'sentiment' - and I intend the term perjoratively. Which brings me to the interesting diversity of views in BDG=20 on the sentiments, and ideas, of Tepper's work, and=20 the work *as a novel*. >Some people like the ideas, and like the book, too (e.g. Phoebe, Sharon, Allyson) >Some people like the ideas, but find the book lacking=20 (e.g Joyce, Allyson - double counting ;-) >Some people find the premise unrealistic, and don't much like the book (e.g. Danny, and to some extent myself) A propos of the ideas in Tepper, and her work as a novelist, Misha and Julieanne and Rudy have all wondered about the evolution of Tepper's work over time - whether she has changed - or -=20 perhaps more to the point - *not* changed over the years. I went back and picked up Grass again, to wonder about this. The scenario in Grass - of cultural misinterpretation and things which = are almost familiar but misleading - is still as engaging as ever for me. This cultural brew is richer in Grass - it has more stray elements, and things left unexplained. More like a real culture - with a = solarising rather than polarising filter, perhaps. It's this, as much as the characterisation of Majorie, that helped me enjoy Grass, I think. =20 I am not a whole-hearted believer in Tepper's ideas. So, for me, they go down more easily when they have a deep compost of this 'extra stuff' around them, in which my imagination can flounder around and put down its own roots. Dunno if this makes any sense to you... all the best, Heather >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ------=_NextPart_000_0101_01C0228A.14DC7F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
there are some themes in the commentary I'd like to pick up = on...
to do with Romance, Sentiment and Ideas
 
Phoebe's advice not to = start a Kate=20 Elliot at 11pm is sound!

and...it's = liberating to=20 think that liking
romance needn't be embarassing. 
 
But my cringe-threshold hasn't receded very far away.
Don't know what the cover art for Singer from the Sea is like in = the=20 US.
The VG trade paperback in the UK features a naked lady
who looks = like=20 the flower child on the Clairol HerbalEssence bottle
(circa late 60s/early 70s). She is encircled by two dolphin-like = creatures=20
with multiple dorsal fins.  The whole ensemble forms a = yin-yang=20 symbol.

To me - this is still real 'plain brown wrapper' = stuff. 
So I call it 'sentiment' - and I intend the term = perjoratively.
 
Which brings me to the interesting diversity of views in BDG
on the sentiments, and ideas, of Tepper's work, and
the work *as a novel*.
 
>Some people like the ideas, and like the book, too
    (e.g.   Phoebe, Sharon, Allyson)
>Some people like the ideas, but find the book lacking
    (e.g Joyce, Allyson - double counting ;-)
>Some people find the premise unrealistic, and don't much like = the=20 book
    (e.g. Danny, and=20 to some extent myself)
 
A propos of the ideas in = Tepper, and her=20 work as a novelist,
Misha and Julieanne and Rudy = have all=20 wondered about the evolution
of Tepper's work = over time -=20 whether she has changed - or -
perhaps more to the point  - *not* changed over the = years.
 
I went back and picked up Grass again, to wonder about this.
The scenario in Grass - of cultural misinterpretation and things = which=20 are
almost familiar but misleading - is still as engaging as ever for = me.
 
This cultural brew is richer in Grass - it has more stray = elements,
and things left unexplained.   More like a real culture - = with a=20 solarising
rather than polarising filter, perhaps.
 
It's this, as much as the characterisation of
Majorie, that helped me enjoy Grass, I think. 
 
I am not a whole-hearted believer in Tepper's ideas.
So, for me, they go down more easily when they have a deep
compost of this 'extra stuff' around them, in which
my imagination can flounder around and put down its own = roots.
 
Dunno if this makes any sense to you...
 
all the = best,
 
Heather
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 









>----------------------------= --------------------------
>This=20 is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for
>discussion of = feminism=20 and Speculative Fiction.  To
>unsubscribe from this = listserve, send a=20 message to
>LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU = and in the=20 body of the message = say:
>        =20 unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT
>
>Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-re= quest@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU=20 if there are problems.
>
------=_NextPart_000_0101_01C0228A.14DC7F80-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:02:34 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Terri Subject: BDG Voting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone! Here are instructions for voting; Please send your votes to me at Not to the list! Vote for the *FOUR* books of your choice. I will be accepting votes from now until Wednesday, Sept. 27th at midnight EST. Winners will be posted by Friday Sept. 29th. After you have sent your *FOUR* (4) votes you should receive a confirmation from me within 24 hours. If not, please repost or contact me. I want to make sure everyones' votes are received and counted. :o) Thanks Terri Wakefield The comments of the reviewers can be looked up at http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/bdg_nom_0900.htm -- Angela Carter: Nights at the Circus. List Price: $12.95, Paperback - 294 pages (January 1993), Viking Pr; ISBN: 0140077030 Suzy McKee Charnas: The Conqueror's Child (The Holdfast Chronicles, Book 4). List Price: $14.95, Paperback - 432 pages (August 2000), Tor Books; ISBN: 0312869460 Charles de Lint: Jack of Kinrowan. List Price: $14.95, Paperback - 384 pages (June 1999), Tor Books, ISBN: 0312869592 (5.5" x 8.25" size) James Alan Gardner: Commitment Hour. List Price: $5.99, Publisher: Avon Books, Mass Market Paperback - 343 pages (April 1998), ISBN: 0380798271 Mary Gentle: A Secret History : The Book of Ash 1. US, List Price: £6.99, Mass Market Paperback - 424 pages (October 5, 1999), Eos (Mass Market); ISBN: 0380788691 (Ash: A Secret History. UK, List Price: £14.99, Paperback - 1113 pages (15 June, 2000), Victor Gollancz Science Fiction; ISBN: 0575069015. (contains books 1-3!)) Gregory Maguire: Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister. Paperback - 384 pages (October 2000) Regan Books; ISBN: 0060987529; List Price: $15.00 Gregory Maguire: Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West. Douglas Smith (Illustrator), Retail Price: $14.00, Paperback, 406pp., ISBN: 0060987103, Publisher: HarperCollins Publishers, Incorporated, Pub. Date: September 1996 Starhawk: The Fifth Sacred Thing. List Price: $14.95, Paperback Reprint edition (July 1994), Bantam Doubleday Dell Pub (Trd Pap); ISBN: 0553373803 Jane Yolen: The Books of Great Alta. List Price: $16.95, 448 pages (April 1997), St. Martin's Press; ISBN: 031286258X ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.