From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thu Jul 12 20:24:44 2001 Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 07:40:03 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0011B" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 08:10:38 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Heather Stark Subject: Re: BDG Ash also SPOILERS from The Sparrow [Was: What Makes It Feminist?] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So many threads... First...let me run my colours up the mast: * I enjoyed and would recommend The Sparrow. * Also Bujold. * Not Ash. (*I also like Patrick O'Brian...but that's *really* off-topic ;-) (1) The Sparrow Nutshell: I enjoyed the book.. but didn't think of it as feminist. More specifically: I was not angred (as Jessie was) because I felt the trauma of the main character was taken too seriously. The trauma was a serious one - I thought the big point about the trauma was that it was spiritual - although there was torture involved, too (some mixed evidence for JulieAnne's theory about religious leanings: I didn't have a conventially religious upbringing - but I did have one 'hit' in recommending the book to a friend who is a catholic mystic...). But...let's say I agreed with Jessie that the society devoted too much attention to his trauma. That could be just plain annoying to me (as in: 'throw this book at the wall NOW' - which does happen...). Or it could be something the author is doing, in order to tell me something -about the characters in the story, and their expectations, or about what the society in the book is like. This latter is harder for an author to pull off successfully, I think. I make a strong disctinction between portrayals of: 'things I like and would like to be true'- which I think forms a lot of the appeal of the sf genre in general (and fsf is no exception) and 'things which stretch my ideas of how society does or could work even if they portray situations which are unjust or horrible or frustrating'. For me, if a work doesn't hit the spot with wish fulfilment (or fantasy, or whatever), and it *just* portrays things which are unjust or horrible or frustrating, with no Redeeming Mind Expanding Quotient (RMEQ) then it's Throw At Wall Time. (Which is how a lot of people took Sparrow, it seems. And, incidentally...why I didn't like Angela's Ashes.) (2) Bujold I enjoy the Vor series in a chocolate covered cherries kind of way. Not very nutritious, but very more-ish. Feminist? Mildly, perhaps, with the wind in a favourable direction. As in: feminist in that it is not conventionally sexist. Exploring how *different* forms of sexism work - which the Vor books do, to some extent - *can* be a way of sneaking in doses of RMEQ, as other readers have pointed out. But for me, Bujold isn't about RMEQ - it's about adventure, set against background which is pleasantly backlit with with a light dose of alternative sexism. (3) Ash Not much in the way of 'things I like and would like to be true'. Nor much RMEQ. (Though later volumes try for this very hard.) Result: Throw at wall. I am uneasy about the divergence between my Reader-Rxns and BDG-normal. A certain level of disagreement is fun - and essential - on a list. (But I also know there are limits to what works well...) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:47:41 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: What Makes It Feminist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There >is scope for more feminist speculation in that Genry Ai has to come to terms >with losing his status as a man. He has far more soul searching to do than >would a female envoy. Isn't this precisely what makes a book feminist irrespective of the assigned gender of the protagonist - querying accepted ideas about masculinity/femininity/gender/sexual orientation? I.e. a book entirely about males could be feminist if it was actually making people think about their assumptions. (I'm sure there are examples I could think of but I haven't had my second cup of coffee yet!) Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:52:10 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: BDG Ash also SPOILERS from The Sparrow [Was: What Makes It Feminist?] In-Reply-To: <000801c0495b$620c51c0$7a48fd3e@has-home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:10 AM 8/11/00 -0000, Heather Stark wrote: >(3) Ash > >Not much in the way of 'things I like and would like to be true'. >Nor much RMEQ. (Though later volumes try for this very hard.) > >Result: Throw at wall. After finally finishing the marathon Journey of Ash in the UK edition (which makes no distinction between the 4 'Parts') I have come to a similar viewpoint - except it is so large, it may very well damage the wall if I threw it! On the negatives - firstly, the unnecessary verbiage detracts from what might have been a romping good fun adventure story with some intriguing ideas, twists & plot devices. On one level, it reminded me of Titanic - (which must have been the first movie I have ever walked out of in my life, as I kept fidgeting through those interminably long drawn-out scenes grimacing in frustration thinking "Is there a point to all this verbiage?") Similarly with Ash, although it started off OK, the detailed descriptions of the mercenary camps & Ash's childhood, discovery of the "voices" etc were important to an understanding of the character I guess - but by midway, I was skimming several pages at a time without losing anything of the very slow-moving plot - by the end, I could not have cared less "Why Burgundy?" - all those long loving details of how medieval latrines & garderobes were designed etc - left me bored - it certainly helped me sleep these last weeks! Secondly, I felt little empathy with any of the characters, particularly Ash. For a start, she kept making a lot of mistakes, personally, politically, socially and most importantly militarily. I'm surprised she was able to command the loyalty of her men - but on the other hand, this would have helped make her appear more real, more plausible, if the writing style didnt have her sputtering repetitive expletives for 9 out of every 10 lines of the script, or asking dumb questions, going off at tangents, freaking out for no reason, never getting to the point etc. And blaming it on the vagaries of translating medieval dog-latin, being a "Fisrt Draft", or the "poetic licence" of the translator (the historian, Pierce) seems to me a bit of a cop-out. As for other characters, the priest Godfrey in particular, but even Florian/Floria never quite 'ring true' for me - they were too sugary, too flawless, upstanding and Disney-like in their high moral ground (despite loving Ash). Nonetheless I did enjoy the historical scholarship which went into the book (Hey? I'm trying to find something positive here - to justify the enormous effort of reading it and NOT throwing it against the wall - OK?) - but unfortunately, there was just way too much of it, and a lot of it repetitive - and some wise pruning & editing would have improved the readability & enjoyability of the book enormously IMHO. On the positive side, I *loved* the framing device MG uses - it was probably the only thing which kept me plodding on through - I found myself rushing through in places, scanning a paragraph here, a footnote there, a half-page conversation 2 pages later.... just so I could get to the next series of the e-mails! Gentle does have fun with academia here - and it comes through well. Not much of a feminist theme in it either - although I didn't mind the descriptions of the grossness and inhumanity of medieval daily life, and appreciated the lack of emotion in those descriptions as being realistic & plausible. This is the "way it is" type of attitude, one of acceptance - no moral judgements are made by the characters, or the author (or her alter-ego Pierce) But despite the almost pornographic, and overly detailed & scholarly descriptions of war, famine, disease, Ash taking dumps etc - the relatively brief glimpses of sociopolitical/sexual/women's themes, or even of medieval women's lives eg. the witch-burnings, the lives of the women of the baggage-trains, or the brief scenes of Ash confronting Florian's identity, or the Faris etc - were very disappointing in contrast. Some of these 'glimpses' appear to have been thrown in as an afterthought. Given the scholarship which obviously went into the book, I would have liked to learn more about women in that time-period, instead of the dimensions & designs of sallets & arquebuses, how granite crushes pauldrons (was 4 pages *really* necessary? ) , or the range of a siege-engine...and that list goes on, and on, and on - ad infinitum, ad nauseum... Initially, this 'brief glimpse' technique reminded me of the first book of the Holdfast Chronicles - where almost 3/4 of the book details the male characters' lives, thoughts etc, but with occasional, unemotional 'brief glimpses' of the horror & brutality of the fem's lives. It makes a feminist statement, by using understatement, so to speak. Unfortunately, Gentle doesn't attempt this at all. Overall - not one of Gentle's better works IMHO - I did like Golden Witchbreed I recall from some years ago, and Rats & Gargoyles more recently was so-so - but although I feel an enormous sense of achievement at actually finishing it (perhaps in 4 "bite-size" chunks it may read better?) - I wouldn't recommend it to others, and rather than smash the wall - it will top my pile to go for exchange/sale at the 2nd-hand bookstore next trip:) Cheers - Julieanne:) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:07:17 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Ash In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sharon Anderson wrote: ^ÓShe accepts women as figures who act in traditional roles as long as they are overt and have the cojones to get away with it. She is totally freaked out when she finds Florian is really Floria, and comes completely undone when she catches her with another woman. Although she remarks that it is perfectly all right for Angelotti to be with other men.^Ô I read Ash response to Floria/n completely differently. She^Òs astounded surprised when Floria reveals her true sex but mostly because she has been misled everybody for such a long time. Ash never suspected. But she unhesitantly backs Floria and if anything the surgeon becomes more important for her than before. She^Òs stunned when she finds that Floria has sex with a woman but for me that^Òs realistic. As far as I know female homosexuality was always more hidden/not thought possible than male homosexuality. It^Òs reasonable to assume that Ash has encountered many gay men (the term seems very inappropriate for mercenaries) in the camp but never any lesbians. And weren^Òt some of her customers when she prostituted herself at 10 or so mostly interested in her because they imagined her to be a boy? But I wouldn^Òt describe Ash^Òs reaction as ^Ótotally freaked out^Ô or ^Ócompletely undone^Ô in both situation. If anything she becomes very protective of Floria. By the way, some time ago there was an article in Emma (the German equivalent to Ms.) about women from ca. 1500 to 1800 or so masquerading as men (soldiers, sailors, etc.). Apparently it was not uncommon (the author concluded it from the many instances in which women were (repeatedly) sentenced for pretending to be men and for marrying other women.) There were various motivations for these women, some simply wanted to be close to their men, others because they preferred male occupations/habits. For us it might be surprising (at least I wondered when I read the article) that these women could successfully hide their sex for so long (sometimes years, and these were only the discovered cases), but according to the author in a society in which men and women wear very different clothes, hairstyles, etc. people simply don^Òt see the broad hips, the breasts, etc. if a woman wears male clothes. Have to run. More tomorrow. Petra ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 17:56:32 GMT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joell Smith Subject: Re: BDG Ash Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >I read Ash response to Floria/n completely differently. She^Òs >astounded surprised when Floria reveals her true sex but mostly >because she has been misled everybody for such a long time. Ash >never suspected. But she unhesitantly backs Floria and if anything >the surgeon becomes more important for her than before. I found the way Ash dealt with Floria/Florian to be kind of disturbing. One of the big things that made it hard for me to like Ash was the way that her whole attitude and perception of Florian changed when she found out he was female-bodied, and the way that she suddenly started messing up his name and pronouns. I mean, calling him "her" in front of the wrong people could've gotten him killed, or at the least cost him his place in the camp. I am of course completely biased as I am very active and personally involved in the FTM transgender community, but it amazed me that 5 years (is that right?) of habitually calling him Florian and using masculine pronouns would be completely undone in one night. Maybe on some level Ash did feel more protective of Florian, but her behavior and insensitivity put him at a great deal of risk. And it provided an example to the other person who knew the secret--I can't remember who it was off the top of my head--but if Ash had pet her foot down, said for Florian's safety, we can't screw this up, then he would've followed. Instead they are both constantly covering up mistakes and kind of commiserating about how weird the whole thing is. >By the way, some time ago there was an article in Emma (the >German equivalent to Ms.) about women from ca. 1500 to 1800 or >so masquerading as men (soldiers, sailors, etc.). Apparently it was >not uncommon (the author concluded it from the many instances in >which women were (repeatedly) sentenced for pretending to be >men and for marrying other women.) There were various motivations >for these women, some simply wanted to be close to their men, >others because they preferred male occupations/habits. For us it >might be surprising (at least I wondered when I read the article) that >these women could successfully hide their sex for so long >(sometimes years, and these were only the discovered cases), but >according to the author in a society in which men and women wear >very different clothes, hairstyles, etc. people simply don^Òt see the >broad hips, the breasts, etc. if a woman wears male clothes. I'm going to have to see if I can't find a copy of that article. Sounds very interesting. And it is true that's it's not terrifically hard to pass as male, and it's even easier in places with stricter definitions of masculine and feminine signifiers. I have heard transgendered folks say that San Francisco is a great place to transition but a terrible place to pass--people there don't have the same assumptions about gender signifiers that people in places like the midwest do. I had no trouble whatsoever believing that a person like Florian would exist. I would've liked a little more info about what being able to pass as a man really meant for him, though. Was it really just a way to be a doctor and be able to have female sexual partners, or was there more to it? Interesting stuff. Take it easy, Joell _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:20:27 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: different BDG recommendations? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone have any ideas (I think my brain is presently numbed by too late a night waiting on the election non-results) of books for my store book discussion group to read dealing with politics and /or disillusioned idealism on the part of the protagonist? TIA, Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:43:56 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Frances Subject: Re: different BDG recommendations? Is this limited to SF? If not, I find this aspect is an interesting added dimension to Lia Matera's mysteries. Frances (with apologies if I've breached topic) >Anyone have any ideas (I think my brain is presently numbed by too late >a night waiting on the election non-results) of books for my store book >discussion group to read dealing with politics and /or disillusioned >idealism on the part of the protagonist? Maryelizabeth ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:54:55 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: different BDG recommendations? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, because MG does SF, mystery and suspense, Matera is a great suggestion! :) Thanks, Frances! If anyone would prefer to send non-SF suggestions off list, feel free. :) M'e Frances wrote: > Is this limited to SF? If not, I find this aspect is an interesting added > dimension to Lia Matera's mysteries. > > Frances (with apologies if I've breached topic) > > >Anyone have any ideas (I think my brain is presently numbed by too late > >a night waiting on the election non-results) of books for my store book > >discussion group to read dealing with politics and /or disillusioned > >idealism on the part of the protagonist? > > Maryelizabeth > -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 14:37:29 -0600 Reply-To: rudileon@earthlink.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: different BDG recommendations? In-Reply-To: <3A09996B.A32BC65D@mystgalaxy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT An argument could be made for _Gate to Women's Country_, but the reason wouldn't be clear 'til they finished the book.... That's a tough one! Oooh, maybe Slow River? rudy On 8 Nov 2000, at 10:20, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > Anyone have any ideas (I think my brain is presently numbed by too late > a night waiting on the election non-results) of books for my store book > discussion group to read dealing with politics and /or disillusioned > idealism on the part of the protagonist? > > TIA, > > Maryelizabeth > > > -- > ******************************************************************* > Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 > 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 > San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 > http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: > mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com > > ******************************************************************* > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 17:20:21 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dale Marshall Subject: Re: different BDG recommendations? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 11/8/00 1:20 PM, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: >Anyone have any ideas (I think my brain is presently numbed by too late >a night waiting on the election non-results) of books for my store book >discussion group to read dealing with politics and /or disillusioned >idealism on the part of the protagonist? _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ is quite political, as well as providing a provocative twist on how to institute marriage. Dasha ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 17:40:29 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: different BDG recommendations? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 05:20:21PM -0500, Dale Marshall wrote: > _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ is quite political, as well as providing a > provocative twist on how to institute marriage. Actually, it just occurred to me that I think that "Mike" (Mycroft Holmes) was the only "male" self-aware computer that Heinlein created. All others were "female"--none were genderless, IIRC. Perhaps because Mike was organizing the Lunar revolution? -allen ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:22:24 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Frances Subject: Heinlein >Actually, it just occurred to me that I think that "Mike" (Mycroft >Holmes) was the only "male" self-aware computer that Heinlein created. >All others were "female"--none were genderless, IIRC. And as I recall he downloaded at least one into a female body, though I don't remember where he got it. A clone, probably. I have mixed feelings about Heinlein's females: on the one hand he tended to empower them; on the other they were all so damned eager to produce babies at the drop of a space helmet. The only one I remember who wasn't enthusiastic was the unsympathetic wife in Farnham's Freehold. But Heinlein came up with so many concepts that were new and mind-opening to me at the time that I am willing to forgive a great deal (squirming uneasily, though). Frances ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:15:17 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Nike Bourke Organization: Griffith University Subject: Re: What Makes It Feminist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jenny Rankine wrote: > Women's control of their reproduction has been a core plank of > feminist demands since at least last century, with struggles to get > access to contraception and abortion (but not forced on any women); > access to health services and the choice of women practitioners, etc > etc. The uterine replicator fits right in with this feminist goal. > It's not the only goal, of course. > Unfortnately, I don't have the time to respond to this as thoroughly as I'd like to today. Suffice to say that I strongly disagree that the concept of uterine replicators are on a continuum of freedom/feminism with such things as access to health services etc. While not wishing to mount an essentialist argument about the importance of womb-bred babies I have serious doubts about whether the implementation of alternative methods of being born would be/is beneficial to Women as a group, rather than particular (wealthy) women, who are permitted to make 'choices'. Issues of access mark the technology as classist (much as in vitro is now), and almost certainly controlled by the (patriarchal) society - if not overtly, then covertly or unconsciously. I would not argue, however, that the promotion of NRT (new reproductive technologies) is necessarily non-feminist, its just not my personal idea of feminism. > > I also don't agree with Julieanne about the rapes of those women. One > of the raped women kills her rapist, a key character, in a later > novel. She is shown as traumatised by that experience - it is not > trivialised. I do agree with Julieanne about Cordelia just throwing > away her job and position to join her lover on a backward planet. One > thing missing in the later Vorkosigan books for me is any idea of what > Cordelia *does* with her time. She's personally assertive and > feminist, yet she is depicted as resolutely non-political, that is not > involved in Barrayaran political processes. That doesn't gel for me > with her character as presented in the earlier books. I think a woman > like her, with her resolute criticisms of Barrayaran society and > sexism, would get her hands dirty working the political machine. > However, I think Bujold shows Cordelia and her lover regularly > questioning Barrayaran sexism and society - every book set on the > planet has at least one telling example. > RE: these things ... It's been a long time since I read these books but reading this made me wonder whether the definition of a feminist text we are appealing is too narrow. Do the characters need to be likeable? politically correct? heroic? Is it necessary, for a book to be called feminist, for the characters to be consistent? If Cordelia says one thing and does another - isn't she just human like the rest of us? I was looking through my bookshelves this morning, wondering about all of this, and thinking about how we seem to be leaning towards two definitions of what constitutes a feminist text according to whether the novel is largely dystopian or utopian - with obvious differences. I'd actually like to suggest that the notion of a feminist text is not that simple - although the notion of a womanist text might be. It all depends on what notions of feminism/s you appeal to. Although its probably not strictly speaking a sf book I was thinking, in this regard, about the book 'Written on the Body' by Jeanette Winterson. In this text the first person narrator does not declare their sex throughout the text. They have a relationship with a (married) woman. When I first read this astonishingly well-written book I was over the moon. It was exciting, radical, appealed to the dyke in me as a (potentially) lesbian romance, etc, etc. Now I find myself going back to it with more doubt. Perhaps, as someone once suggested to me, the gimmicky sleight of hand of not declaring the M.c's gender is a cop out. A gimmick in the worst sense of the word. I no longer think of this book as unproblematic, but I still consider it feminist. It still challenges me to ask questions about the status and implications of sex and gender. In many ways, this would probably be my own way of categorising a book as feminist. Something that challenges my/a readers assumptions about the status of the feminine (or even of the masculine, perhaps?) not only in the culture depicted in the text, but also in my own. Reading through this I realise that, as usual, I have gotten on my soapbox and it all sounds a bit strident - my apologies if this offends, it wasn't my intention. Nike Australia ___________________ You say I am mysterious Let me explain myself In a land of apples I am faithful to oranges ___________________ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:34:49 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: Heinlein Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 06:22:24PM -0500, Frances wrote: > And as I recall he downloaded at least one into a female body, though I don't > remember where he got it. A clone, probably. If I recall correctly, she created her own body and then downloaded herself. > I have mixed feelings about Heinlein's females Gee... [tongue implanted firmly in cheek] I can't imagine why... ;-) -allen ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:45:12 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Frances Subject: Re: What Makes It Feminist? Jenny Rankine wrote: > Women's control of their reproduction has been a core plank of > feminist demands since at least last century, with struggles to get > access to contraception and abortion (but not forced on any women); > access to health services and the choice of women practitioners, etc > etc. The uterine replicator fits right in with this feminist goal. > It's not the only goal, of course. > Ouch! Um ... I hope this doesn't act as a spoiler for anyone, but see Tepper's "Gibbon's Decline and Fall". Frances ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:08:10 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Trudy Mercer Subject: Re: New Tepper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > Etc. I love Tepper's books because they make such nice fantasies. > However, I get depressed because the idea of alien intervention into > destructive abhorrent human nature is just a fantasy, and I get > pessimistic about our ability to improve ourselves. I find it depressing as well, but I think of Tepper's use of fantastic solutions as a metaphor for ideas and solutions that we are unable to think of now because of the way we are socially constructed. The "intervention" of aliens is the intervention of concepts that are "alien" to us but which may one day appear as a paradigm shift in our thinking. Trudy Mercer tmercer00@yahoo.com ===== Trudy Mercer tmercer00@yahoo.com http://drizzle.com/~tmercer/ Naturally we would prefer seven epiphanies a day and an earth not so apparently devoid of angels. Jim Harrison __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:07:21 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Nike Bourke Organization: Griffith University Subject: Re: What Makes It Feminist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: > > On the > other hand, I still hate Heinlein's _Friday_, whose hero is a > super-strong, super-competent, sexually liberated woman. > couldn't agree more! this book frustrated me so much. Perhaps its just that my politics developed well after the sexual revolution, but I can't help feeling that this kind of character seeks to make us believe that being 'more like a man': strong(emopionally and physically), competent (coz aint we all, at heart, naturally more incompetent than rational men), and sexually 'liberated' (read 'available/promiscuous') will mean we are somehow liberated as women. How simplistic can you get! Still, perhaps it really is just a work of its time and place. Can we really expect radical or innovative feminism from a middle american man during the hey-days of science and capitalism? For me, these kinds of female characters aren't very interesting or enlightening or whatever, they're acts of literary transvestism. nike ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:39:07 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Contacting Shani Mootoo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I was asked by a visitor of my (German) website on feminist sf whether I know the email address of Shani Mootoo. S/he wrote that it was very important for her/him to reach Mootoo. Of course, I don't know it but does anybody know Mootoo's email address or knows her agent's address or such things? Thank you for your help. Petra ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 08:46:47 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: different BDG recommendations? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rudy: Thanks for the suggestions. We read GATE TO WOMEN'S COUNTRY ages ago. Now I can't wait for THE FRESCO to be out in paperback so I can choose that! :) SLOW RIVER is a possibility. We read BLUE PLACE, but it was a while back, and I am not against repeating good authors. Dasha: MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS is a great suggestion -- we haven't done Heinlein in ages. Thanks, all! Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:30:17 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: different BDG recommendations? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's only a short story, but if you want political disillusionment try William Tenn's _The Liberation of Earth_ Jane ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 05:49:46 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: BDG Ash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all- In regards to the what makes it feminist question: IMO, the Sparrow is not feminist, neither I have to say, is books ie The Children Star by Joan Slonczewski. However, when I catalogue my books, I put them with the feminist sf. I think it's because, while they are not specifically sf, they also incorporate many of the elements of feminist works ie character analysis, examination of the society. IMO, a book is feminist, if- well, first of all, I feel more comfortable if it is a woman writer. And then, I would say- a book is feminist if the author analyses the role of each sex, the relationship between them, and the balance of power between them- in the culture of the book- and often uses that analysis to comment on those elements of our own culture. I loved Singer from the Sea, because I felt Tepper did these things excellently in the book-- the way the women were groomed to accept their own fate, the use of religion to control the noble women. It was made impossible for a woman to find out what was going on or complain etc, because women must not 'spout, or be strident' etc. I think a book is feminist if it has a female protagonist who has experiences which are specifically female ie motherhood, rape- an author can say a lot about a culture by it's reactions to such events. Also, I guess writing about female experiences helps to validate them- often specifically female experiences are dismissed, trivialised. I don't really think a book like the Sparrow or the Children Star is feminist. Although the Sparrow has many of the same elements as a feminist book, ie the character analysis, the cultural analysis, the book doesn't really make any comments about the relationship between the sexes, or role of either sex. There is the sort-of role- reversal of the sexes in the alien culture the humans first meet, which is nice, but it is not what the book is about . To completely change topic- has anyone read 'The Honour of the Ken'- I just read it, and loved it. Another example of a book I put with my feminist sf, but that isn't really feminist. Its written buy a woman, has a female protagonist, many of her experiences are female specific ie childbirth and rape, in fact everything that happens to her in the book is related to her being female- in that, if she was male, her experiences would be different. However, the author is not making any feminist points. I found it an incredibly powerful book, I would really recommend it. Its set in a far future, where humans have settled on a distant planet, on which a substance that enables FTL travel exists naturally, (before finding the planet, the substance had to be manufactured.) The planet is also inhabited by the Ken, I assume human relatives as interbreeding is possible. Anyway, basically, the humans (Terrans) behave in typical colonial fashion- dismissing the ancient Ken culture because of their low tech, etc- they become a completely oppressed under-class, and eventually enslaved- the humans claim this is necessary for the economic survival of the planet. The protagonist is an extremely rare half-Ken half human woman, who has battled against prejudice to graduate from university and be a successful author, only to be thrown into slavery with the rest of the Ken when it is legalised. I would be very interested in other opinions of the book ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:40:46 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: BDG Ash In-Reply-To: <5f.c9f5fbb.273d2cca@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:49 AM 11/10/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Marie wrote: >In regards to the what makes it feminist question: >IMO, the Sparrow is not feminist, neither I have to say, is books ie The >Children Star by Joan Slonczewski. However, when I catalogue my books, I put >them with the feminist sf. Very interesting and well thought out distinction in your posting! I use the term "woman-centered" for the books you say catalog with feminist sf but don't consider feminist sf. Perhaps the distinction is the extent to which a patriarchal focus is critiqued or questioned. That is, it's perfectly possible to write a woman-centered text (female author, female protagonist, focus on events of women's lives) about a character in a patriarchal society (and the protagonist may even be a strong woman) without questioning the patriarchal/heterosexist norm. Feminism, with its desire to CHANGE patriarchy, is going to be involved with some process of questioning that norm. Building on that thought, I'm interested by the way we tend to go feminist/not feminist (I know I've said something like this before but what the heck) in a simple binary construction. Isn't it more likely there is a spectrum of feminism in fictions (and we are, after all, talking about well-crafted lies here, no matter how we are sucked into believing them)? Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:01:26 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: April Goodwin-Smith Subject: Re: different BDG recommendations? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: "Anyone have any ideas of books for my store book discussion group to read dealing with politics and /or disillusioned idealism on the part of the protagonist?" Yes. It is probably hard to get, but _Rite of Passage_ Alexei Panshin 1968, ACE books Sorry, no ISBN, my copy is too old to have one. :) Especially good about the nature of power and the complacency having power generates. This one deserves to be reissued. A more sophisticated Podkayne story. Ciao for now, April. ===== "Things that try to look like things often do look more like things than things. Well-known fact." Esmerelda Weatherwax. (Pratchett, 1988) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:06:09 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: RITE OF PASSAGE: Goodwin-Smith MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'm glad you mentioned this one. I'd picked it up, finally, about fifteen years ago and found the opening pages very stiff, that the narrative rang false for me. Did you find any such difficulty at the beginning? (I got a serious "since I'm merely a girl" vibe off the opening pages, when I expected precisely the opposite.) Of course, compared to most Heinlein characterizations of women I've read it's as Alice Sheldon compared to R. Bretnor...well, I wouldn't go that far. -----Original Message----- From: April Goodwin-Smith [mailto:aprilgoodwinsmith@YAHOO.COM] Yes. It is probably hard to get, but _Rite of Passage_ Alexei Panshin 1968, ACE books Sorry, no ISBN, my copy is too old to have one. :) Especially good about the nature of power and the complacency having power generates. This one deserves to be reissued. A more sophisticated Podkayne story. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:18:42 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: RITE OF PASSAGE and (inevitably!) THE FEMALE MAN MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Btw, I had the Timescape (Pocket Books) reprint from the early-mid '80s. And, as I didn't quite say in the last post, I put it down after those first few pages, and never have picked it up again. You know, the blithe acceptance of murder as just deserts for leaving the collective in the Janet/Whileaway passages of THE FEMALE MAN are a good example of the abuse of power, as is nearly every aspect of the continuing Depression scenario...but disillusion isn't perhaps the strong suit there, except perhaps (just perhaps) in the war passages... -----Original Message----- From: April Goodwin-Smith [mailto:aprilgoodwinsmith@YAHOO.COM] _Rite of Passage_ Alexei Panshin 1968, ACE books Sorry, no ISBN, my copy is too old to have one. :) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:54:37 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: BDG Ash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 'The Honour of the Ken' sounds very interesting. Could you please say who the author, publisher is, etc? Thank you very much. Amy (mostly lurking---very busy). > . > To completely change topic- has anyone read 'The Honour of the Ken'- I just > read it, and loved it. Another example of a book I put with my feminist sf, > but that isn't really feminist. Its written buy a woman, has a female > protagonist, many of her experiences are female specific ie childbirth and > rape, in fact everything that happens to her in the book is related to her > being female- in that, if she was male, her experiences would be different. > However, the author is not making any feminist points. I found it an > incredibly powerful book, I would really recommend it. Its set in a far > future, where humans have settled on a distant planet, on which a substance > that enables FTL travel exists naturally, (before finding the planet, the > substance had to be manufactured.) The planet is also inhabited by the Ken, I > assume human relatives as interbreeding is possible. Anyway, basically, the > humans (Terrans) behave in typical colonial fashion- dismissing the ancient > Ken culture because of their low tech, etc- they become a completely > oppressed under-class, and eventually enslaved- the humans claim this is > necessary for the economic survival of the planet. The protagonist is an > extremely rare half-Ken half human woman, who has battled against prejudice > to graduate from university and be a successful author, only to be thrown > into slavery with the rest of the Ken when it is legalised. > I would be very interested in other opinions of the book > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:16:36 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: BDG Ash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Amy, I'm very happy to give you those details- The Honor (sic- US spelling?) of the Ken Laura W. Haywood (who I believe may have coedited some fem.sf anthologies?) ISBN (softcover) 0 7388 0511 4 The book has, on the inside page the following info.- To order additional copies of this book, contact: Xlibris Corporation (publishers, I assume) 1-888-7-XLIBRIS www.Xlibris.com Orders@Xlibris.com See you later, Maire (also busy- should be getting ready) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 13:10:24 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: BDG Ash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Found it listed at Amazon.com but not at XLibris. Do you have an e-mail address for the author? I'd love to contact her directly if possible. Thanks---the book sounds very intriguing. Amy > Hi Amy, > I'm very happy to give you those details- > > The Honor (sic- US spelling?) of the Ken > Laura W. Haywood (who I believe may have coedited some fem.sf anthologies?) > ISBN (softcover) > 0 7388 0511 4 > > The book has, on the inside page the following info.- > To order additional copies of this book, contact: > Xlibris Corporation (publishers, I assume) > 1-888-7-XLIBRIS > www.Xlibris.com > Orders@Xlibris.com > > See you later, Maire (also busy- should be getting ready) > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:15:45 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: April Goodwin-Smith Subject: Re: RITE OF PASSAGE: Goodwin-Smith MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Todd Mason wrote: > I'm glad you mentioned this one. I'd picked it > up, finally, about fifteen years ago and found > the opening pages very stiff, that the narrative > rang false for me. Did you find any such > difficulty at the beginning? No, in fact, I opened up my copy after reading the above last night, and was immediately sucked back into the narrative. :) I didn't read RofP until about three years ago when I finally found a copy. I had been watching for it for a while, since I really enjoy Panshin's Star Well series. Panshin has an easy-to-read style, similar to Heinlein without being very much like Heinlein at all. Mia's narrative struck me as very "natural" - but what that means is that the writing style is one that I like, and the defensive, outsider tone is one that is appropriate to adolescence, and one that is also appropriate to someone that has decided that one part of the status quo needs changing while still being emotionally attached to portions of the status quo and worried that pulling one thread may unravel the whole. And she *is* comfortable with most of the system. I think the style of Mia's narrative is dated, but, indeed, I think it is one that was reflective of how adolescence was viewed at the time it was written. Or, at least, considered "natural" at that time because, while I didn't read RofP in that era, I was an adolescent then, and I recall many throw-away books (I was a voracious but uncritical reader) which had an adolescent narrator (either male or female) which adopted the same type of defensive, outsider tone. It's not meant as an "I'm just a girl" tone but rather as an "I'm just a kid and nobody *understands*" tone. > (I got a serious "since I'm merely a girl" vibe > off the opening pages, when I expected precisely > the opposite.) Of course, compared to most > Heinlein characterizations of women I've read > it's as Alice Sheldon compared to R. Bretnor > ...well, I wouldn't go that far. Well, I think that Panshin is a product of the era as well, and he holds the same basic assumption that Male=active innovator while Female=passive conservator as most of his SF generation (see his Star Well series, sadly, much as I love it), but in RofP that attitude is at least examined by the characters' actions, choices, attitudes. As a metaphor I would say that Heinlein, while very readable and enjoyable and valuable in many ways, has the emotional depth of a raindrop, whereas Panshin paddles at the edge of an ocean he knows to be huge. He doesn't explore it himself, but he also doesn't pretend it's not there. Anyways. Panshin is another author that I regret didn't write /hasn't written more. (In spite of his & Cory P's tome on the history of early SF - that work is valuable, but not as valuable as his fiction.) ooooo....end of rant. :) April. > > -----Original Message----- > From: April Goodwin-Smith > [mailto:aprilgoodwinsmith@YAHOO.COM] > > Yes. It is probably hard to get, but > _Rite of Passage_ > Alexei Panshin > 1968, ACE books > Sorry, no ISBN, my copy is too old to have one. > :) > > Especially good about the nature of power and > the > complacency having power generates. This one > deserves to be reissued. A more sophisticated > Podkayne story. > > ===== "Things that try to look like things often do look more like things than things. Well-known fact." Esmerelda Weatherwax. (Pratchett, 1988) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 03:32:32 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: BDG Ash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Amy, Sorry I can't help you- no I don't have any other email addresses for the Laura Haywood. I hope you enjoy the book, if you do end up reading it! Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:06:06 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marcie McCauley Organization: @Home Network Subject: BDG: Ash - General MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "I made it through the rape and face slashing, I got through the explicit slaughter of the cow as it screamed in pain and closed the book in disgust." I shared Joyce's initial reaction to the text and was particularly frustrated and disappointed having spent $32 on it as only the British edition was available to me. My bookmark sat at that point for a few weeks and I was sure that it would be removed completely before it progressed. Having never had such a negative reaction to a BDG text before, indeed having always enjoyed the selections to some extent, I was shocked. But one night I picked it up again, expecting dissatisfaction to slap me in the face a few paragraphs later, and I was surprised to find myself reacting very differently. A couple of days later I was even considering carrying it to work with me, despite the 1200 heavy pages and my 30-minute walk there and back, because I was so wrapped up in the story! I don't know if the novel's tone changed when Ash grew up to command her own company, or whether it was my own frame of mind which changed or my expectations which adjusted, but either way I was pleasantly surprised. "What did people think of the "frame"? I loved these emails. (Anna to Pierce: "*GOLEMS*???!!! In mediaeval Europe?!") I'm so curious how it will end." Like Petra and Julieanne, I loved the emails. The ever-shifting line between fiction and fact has always fascinated me and I'm excited to think of discovering secrets and new-truths in manuscripts which have been lost or forgotten. Although we know very little of these characters, I responded warmly to Pierce's faith in his subject, his fear and confusion when the veracity of his scholarship is thrown into question, and Anna's uncertainty and anxiety in reconsidering the traditional teachings of history. "Truth can be carried down to us through STORY." (stealing from the fifth part, but hey, no spoiler there ;)) "I am mesmerised by the character of Ash...simultaneously so charismatic while being so unprincipled" Like Jane, I am oddly fascinated by this woman. What troubles me, however, is not Ash as mercenary (for if I had to be a mercenary, I'd opt for her company!) but the issues surrounding the hiring of people to kill other people. "That's what we DO. We kill people we know, and we get killed. And don't tell me it's bloody stupid. There aren't any ways to get killed that are sensible." Ash's words to Anselm brush against my abhorence of the mere idea of it. But I'm not as bothered by Ash's working for one side and then fighting the same side later as by the fact that this is a practice accepted and endorsed by society. However, I think I am expected to react to this. And the fact that it is possible to work for both sides certainly acts as a reminder that the line between two sides is much harder to find than wartime propaganda would have you believe. Maybe making it about "profit" brings you closer to an understanding of such atrocities than modern day rhetoric about intangible ideas and beliefs. I don't know. I don't like all aspects of Ash's character. Like Floria/n, I'm bored by the specifics of weapon-making and would gladly fetch the wine rather than feign interest in such a discussion. I wish she wasn't so drawn to Ferdinand despite his nastiness. And her lack of self-confidence and assurance is frustrating at times. But what of it? So she's not perfect. (Good thing - that wouldn't make for exciting reading at all!) And she lacks some of the values that are, in my modern mind, feminist. But somehow Gentle has managed to engage me in her narrative and provoke an emotional reaction, forcing me to think about the source of my irritation. And that, in my opinion, is a good thing. Despite my initial reaction to the book, I'm now engrossed in what translates to the second volume in the mass market editions with not a thought of giving up and no substantial complaints, except that there are not enough hours in the day for reading for pleasure. But that's nothing new to be sure! Marcie ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:06:35 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marcie McCauley Organization: @Home Network Subject: BDG: Ash - Floria/n MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I too am fascinated by Gentle's character Floria/n. It reminded me of two other novels: Jackie Kay's _Trumpet_ (the story of Joss Moody, jazz musician who masqueraded as a man) and Patricia Duncker's _The Doctor_ (a fictionalized account of James Miranda Barry's life). It was her revelation that contributed to my increased interest in the novel. I was intrigued by fleeting hints of her earlier life and found Ash's struggle to re-frame her understanding of her surgeon with this new knowledge interesting. I'm glad the issue wasn't portrayed as cut-and-dry, fading into the background as the plot progressed. And I can understand how it could be difficult for Ash and Godfrey, even knowing the stakes for Floria/n, to keep their pronouns straight given the extent to which gender shapes us all. I think it would be especially difficult given that it wasn't a secret strictly between Ash and Floria/n, but one shared with Godfrey. Ash, in discussing the situation with him could refer to the surgeon as 'she' aloud which I think makes it much harder to guard against mistakes than if she was simply dealing with the information internally and it was something she could never articulate. Her friendship also adds another dimension to Ash's character, a softer and more personable one I think. Although Ash does seem to feel some connection with the other women in the company, and is particularly intrigued by her conversations with the Faris and Ornorata Rodiani, she is rather a solitary figure. I did find it interesting, however, that the Earl of Oxford remarked that she had many women in her camp. And her reply: "Of course I do. I execute for rape." That might not fit everybody's personal definition of a feminist perspective but it surely fits some! Marcie ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:08:30 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marcie McCauley Organization: @Home Network Subject: What Makes It Feminist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Admittedly, a part of me yearns for a definitive answer to the question of whether a novel is a feminist text; everything would be easier with a check-list. But the larger part of me nods furiously at Robin's discussion of "reader response theory", a term I've not heard before but which articulates principles I've talked willing ears off with for quite some time. Robin writes: "The approach is called reader response theory, and argues that different readers, based on their background, experiences, values, etc., can construct different "meanings" for the same text, or book." I find it much more interesting to explore why specific aspects of a novel provoke emotional responses (be they positive or negative) from readers than whether a book is objectively (assuming, for a moment, that there is such a state) 'good' or 'bad'. I'm always very intrigued by opinions that differ widely from my own because they force me (particularly if I know or respect their holder) to reconsider my own position and the source of my differing reaction. However, I am also often saddened by statements that denounce a book as being "of poor literary quality" as though such a statement can be made unequivocably, with the writer's ownself seemingly disconnected from their criticism. Nike writes: "... this would probably be my own way of categorising a book as feminist. Something that challenges my/a readers assumptions about the status of the feminine (or even of the masculine, perhaps?) not only in the culture depicted in the text, but also in my own." Lesley writes: "Isn't this precisely what makes a book feminist irrespective of the assigned gender of the protagonist - querying accepted ideas about masculinity / femininity / gender / sexual orientation?" Nike's and Lesley's comments echo my own opinion on the matter, both specifically in regards to what makes a text feminist and, more generally, what makes a book 'good'. This discussion has worked in the same way, demanding that I consider the elements of _Ash_ that fit my idea of a feminist novel and urging me to decide whether I would shelve her with Slonczewski, Tepper, or Russell. Fortunately I have all my fiction alphabetized: Tepper next to Thackeray, MZ Bradley next to Bronte and Boccaccio, and Griffith next to Barbara Gowdy and The Wind in the Willows. LOL - I suppose that might be the easy way out but so be it. If Robin or other list members could recommend some resources which explore "reader response theory", I'd be very interested. And if that's considered off-topic, please direct your suggestions to me offlist. Thanks in advance for any direction. Marcie, writing a mental note to search the M shelves for Maguire given the rapid approach of December ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:30:01 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: Reader Response examples In-Reply-To: <3A10200E.9E0E520E@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:08 PM 11/13/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Admittedly, a part of me yearns for a definitive answer to the question >of whether a novel is a feminist text; everything would be easier with >a check-list. Ah, yes, I admit to the same sort of yearning myself as a teacher and a reader at times because the other way (critical thinking, reader response, etc.) is so darned hard at times! But the "easy" way is the traditional way: the Authority (teacher) tells the students the MEANING (singular) of the text, period. No way out. And the tendency of Teachers to use that method so often is what contributes, I argue, to so many people disliking reading when they come out of our educational system. >to decide whether I would shelve >her with Slonczewski, Tepper, or Russell. Fortunately I have all my >fiction alphabetized: Tepper next to Thackeray, MZ Bradley next to >Bronte and Boccaccio, and Griffith next to Barbara Gowdy and The Wind in >the Willows. LOL - I suppose that might be the easy way out but so be >it. Heh heh heh, I keep changing "books categories" especially at work although I suppose an alpha org. makes sense, when one has so many books, and a bad memory for names, it sometimes helps to go to the categories... >If Robin or other list members could recommend some resources which >explore "reader response theory", I'd be very interested. Well, you don't want to heavier duty composition theory stuff, but the one place to start is Stanley Fish's work _Is There a Text in this Class_? If you're interested in the WIDE variety of ways to approach literature, a book I can recommend (and used in an earlier class) is _Falling into Theory: Conflicting Views on Reading Literature_ edited by David H. Richter (which has an excerpt from Fish's longer work and many other essays and editorials on the complicated process we call "reading"), and the implications for teaching and thus for society at large... Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:41:50 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Emma Ferri Subject: Handmaid's Tale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C04D88.3D4E3340" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C04D88.3D4E3340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone have any ideas regarding The Handmaid's Tale and feminism??=20 Thanks. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C04D88.3D4E3340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does = anyone have=20 any ideas regarding The Handmaid's Tale and feminism?? =
Thanks.
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C04D88.3D4E3340-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:01:15 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Freddie Baer Subject: fyi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII SCI FICTION: "THE FLYERS OF GY" - A NEW STORY by URSULA K. LE GUIN http://www.scifi.com/scifiction ************************************************************************ A sociologist from Earth studies the people of Gy, a small percentage of whom can fly, and learns how painful the rift is between those who can fly and those who can't in this moving tale about alienation and taking risks by acclaimed author URSULA K. LE GUIN. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:10:31 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Heather Hacker Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: <2145D9E65368D211996300104B3302F2563707@exchange.dtechdirect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0080_01C04D91.E66A80B0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0080_01C04D91.E66A80B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WOW! This is a GREAT question... The Handmaid's Tale is my absolute Bible of Feminism - I've written paper after paper on the feminist themes in this book... of course, I don't have them with me at work... but if you're looking for some information I would love to share. I've written on everything from the use of the names Offred - representing women taking a man's name in marriage (She's of fred - Offred... just like Mrs. Fred....) to the small amounts of power women are assigned in the society as teachers of the Handmaids - to the passivity of Feminism in today's society leading up to a dystopia of this nature, etc... down to the use of bible imagery with the story of Rachel, etc... and, of course, themes of reproduction and the objectification of a woman's body into a baby-making machine... For instance.... The Handmaid's Tale is not only a reaction to the Fundamentalist New Right, it is also a reaction to women and their non-involvment in the feminist movement. Atwood offers Offred up as a willing victim who's passivity in the feminist movement is as much to blame for the perpetuation of these gender roles as the New Right's takeover. The use of names like "Offred, Ofglen and Ofwarren" is a comment on modern women's willingness to take their husband's last name when they enter in to marriage. The name Offred indicates that Offred is a possession of Fred, she is Of Fred. When the handmaids are shipped to a new house they become the possession of the new male head of the house, taking on a new name, the way women do in today's marriage. To take the last name of a man in marriage is really to reduce one's identity to the possession of that man. In marriage, a man maintains his identity as Mr. So and So and his identity is never dependant on his marital status since it is not revealed in his surname. A woman, however, takes on a new identity from Miss So and So to Mrs. So and So. Her identity becomes dependant on the man she marries and her marital status, which is revealed to everyone by the surname Mrs.____ While women's willingness to accept their husband's name in marriage may be more influenced by tradition and the ignorance of it's implication, Margaret Atwood warns that this type of passivity and ignorance is exactly what the New Right depends on to implement their gender roles into society. -----Original Message----- From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Emma Ferri Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 3:42 PM To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSF-L*] Handmaid's Tale Does anyone have any ideas regarding The Handmaid's Tale and feminism?? Thanks. ------=_NextPart_000_0080_01C04D91.E66A80B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
WOW!  = This is a=20 GREAT question... The Handmaid's Tale is my absolute Bible of Feminism - = I've=20 written paper after paper on the feminist themes in this book... of = course, I=20 don't have them with me at work... but if you're looking for = some=20 information I would love to share.  I've written on everything from = the use=20 of the names Offred - representing women taking a man's name in marriage = (She's=20 of fred - Offred... just like Mrs. Fred....) to the small amounts of = power women=20 are assigned in the society as teachers of the Handmaids - to the = passivity of=20 Feminism in today's society leading up to a dystopia of this nature,=20 etc...  down to the use of bible imagery with the story of Rachel, = etc...=20 and, of course, themes of reproduction and the objectification of a = woman's body=20 into a baby-making machine...
 
For = instance....=20
           =20 The Handmaid's Tale is not only a reaction to the Fundamentalist = New=20 Right, it is also a reaction to women and their non-involvment in the = feminist=20 movement.  Atwood offers = Offred up=20 as a willing victim who's passivity in the feminist movement is as much = to blame=20 for the perpetuation of these gender roles as the New Right's = takeover.  The use of names like "Offred, = Ofglen=20 and Ofwarren" is a comment on modern women's willingness to take their = husband's=20 last name when they enter in to marriage. =20 The name Offred indicates that Offred is a possession of Fred, = she is Of=20 Fred.  When the handmaids = are=20 shipped to a new house they become the possession of the new male head = of the=20 house, taking on a new name, the way women do in today's marriage.  To take the last name of a man = in=20 marriage is really to reduce one's identity to the possession of that = man.  In marriage, a man maintains = his=20 identity as Mr. So and So and his identity is never dependant on his = marital=20 status since it is not revealed in his surname.  A woman, however, takes on a = new=20 identity from Miss So and So to Mrs. So and So.  Her identity becomes dependant = on the=20 man she marries and her marital status, which is revealed to everyone by = the=20 surname Mrs.____ While women's willingness to accept their husband's = name in=20 marriage may be more influenced by tradition and the ignorance of it's=20 implication, Margaret Atwood warns that this type of passivity and = ignorance is=20 exactly what the New Right depends on to implement their gender roles = into=20 society.
-----Original Message-----
From: Feminist = SF/Fantasy and=20 Utopia Literature ON TOPIC = [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On=20 Behalf Of Emma Ferri
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 = 3:42=20 PM
To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU
Subject: = [*FSF-L*]=20 Handmaid's Tale

Does anyone have=20 any ideas regarding The Handmaid's Tale and feminism?? =
Thanks.
= ------=_NextPart_000_0080_01C04D91.E66A80B0-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:16:07 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Priestess of Avalon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was delighted to find, in the book-stores, a new book in the Marion Dimmer Bradley's Avalon series- 'Priestess of Avalon' published posthumously (obviously). Last night I saw, in the new releases list sent out by the listserve, that the series is being rereleased, but no mention of the new book. I didn't find it at amazon either. Has it not been released in the US yet? Mists of Avalon was very influential on me as a teenager, so I can't wait to read the new book. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:23:24 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: BDG: Ash - General In-Reply-To: <3A101F7E.E7DF23DC@home.com> from "Marcie McCauley" at Nov 13, 2000 12:06:06 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I have read all 1200 pages of this book, I put in a spoiler warning, since I cannot remember what character development was in the first book & what was in the rest of the book. I will not be mentioning specific examples of said character development... Marcie McCauley writes: > >But one night I picked it up again, expecting dissatisfaction to slap me >in the face a few paragraphs later, and I was surprised to find myself >reacting very differently. A couple of days later I was even considering >carrying it to work with me, despite the 1200 heavy pages and my >30-minute walk there and back, because I was so wrapped up in the story! >I don't know if the novel's tone changed when Ash grew up to command her >own company, or whether it was my own frame of mind which changed or my >expectations which adjusted, but either way I was pleasantly surprised. I found the first few chapters of the book (I've read all 1200 pages) very difficult -- Ash as a victim is not pleasant to read. But on the other hand, those few chapters give so much *perspective* on Ash the mercenary captain, Ash the woman who can't let people close to her, Ash the woman who is desperately loving and loyal to her troops while knowing that being loving might get them all killed and thus she constantly supresses that side of herself -- none of that would make sense for me without seeing her as a child. >But what of it? So she's not perfect. (Good thing - that wouldn't make >for exciting reading at all!) And she lacks some of the values that are, >in my modern mind, feminist. But somehow Gentle has managed to engage me >in her narrative and provoke an emotional reaction, forcing me to think >about the source of my irritation. And that, in my opinion, is a good >thing. I did find Ash a remarkably compelling and emotionally enjoyable character, despite realising that if I was cast into the world of the book I would have absolutely *nothing* to say to her. It's rare for me to love a character without a quiet wish that I could have them as a friend, but Ash belongs on that list. -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:26:31 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: BDG Ash In-Reply-To: <3A07E7D4.1458.561713A@localhost> from "Petra Mayerhofer" at Nov 07, 2000 11:30:29 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Petra Mayerhofer writes: > >About Ash's childhood. I cannot quite decide whether it is believable >that after running around uncared as a toddler (is it possible that a child >survives that in a mercenary camp?), being raped with 6 and then killing >the rapists, being punished for that, etc. a person would be so functional >and "untwisted". I would say that it's realistic, yes. People can be 'functional' despite enormous amounts of trauma. And it's not as though she doesn't show any effects from that -- it plays out in a lot of her relationships with people. -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:47:36 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: What Makes It Feminist? In-Reply-To: <3A09DE85.44A8F28E@mailbox.gu.edu.au> from "Nike Bourke" at Nov 09, 2000 09:15:17 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nike Bourke writes: > >RE: these things ... It's been a long time since I read these books but >reading this made me wonder whether the definition of a feminist text we >are appealing is too narrow. Do the characters need to be likeable? >politically correct? heroic? Is it necessary, for a book to be called >feminist, for the characters to be consistent? If Cordelia says one >thing and does another - isn't she just human like the rest of us? I was >looking through my bookshelves this morning, wondering about all of >this, and thinking about how we seem to be leaning towards two >definitions of what constitutes a feminist text according to whether the >novel is largely dystopian or utopian - with obvious differences. I agree with this very much, especially with regard to Cordelia, but also in the more general case -- I am always so surprised when a book is considered 'not feminist' because a female character does something non-ideal. Cordelia, in choosing to go to Barrayar, is making a crisis-mode decision; her home planet was going to put her in therapy until she agreed with their version of reality. But in *staying* on Barrayar, with Aral, she is making a deliberate and difficult decision, and the repercussions of this continue to show up in her character -- at one point in one of the later books she says "By Betan standards I'm crazy" (not in those exact words but I recall it being explicit). Staying with the man she loves has been a very expensive decision for her, but she chose to do it. Does choosing to make personally expensive decisions for love of a man make a book non-feminist? Would it suddenly become feminist if she was making these decisions out of love for a woman? I have never been able to codify my view of feminism, but whatever it is, it allows for people to do things with their lives that I would not myself do, so long as they are doing it from free choice. And Cordelia, with her hyper-liberal Betan background, can hardly be said to have been conditioned to 'sacrifice herself for love' -- indeed, a key aspect of her character when she is first introduced is that she did so and dislikes herself for it. -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.