From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thu Jul 12 20:24:51 2001 Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 07:40:04 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0011C" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:31:48 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: What Makes It Feminist? In-Reply-To: <200011150147.RAA04926@idiom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Cera writes: I am always so surprised when a book >is considered 'not feminist' because a female character does something >non-ideal. Cordelia, in choosing to go to Barrayar, is making a >crisis-mode decision; her home planet was going to put her in therapy >until she agreed with their version of reality. But in *staying* on >Barrayar, with Aral, she is making a deliberate and difficult decision, >and the repercussions of this continue to show up in her character -- >at one point in one of the later books she says "By Betan standards I'm >crazy" (not in those exact words but I recall it being explicit). >Staying with the man she loves has been a very expensive decision for >her, but she chose to do it. Does choosing to make personally expensive >decisions for love of a man make a book non-feminist? Would it suddenly >become feminist if she was making these decisions out of love for a >woman? > >I have never been able to codify my view of feminism, but whatever it >is, it allows for people to do things with their lives that I would not >myself do, so long as they are doing it from free choice. Amazing how "simple" that concept is to express and how hard it is to actually carry out. The sad thing today is how many women have been encouraged to attack other women (the working outside the house/working inside the house) as if there's only one "right" way to go! >And Cordelia, >with her hyper-liberal Betan background, can hardly be said to have been >conditioned to 'sacrifice herself for love' -- indeed, a key aspect of >her character when she is first introduced is that she did so and dislikes >herself for it. Great comments on Cordelia! I also remember a hilarious but pointed comment Miles later made about his mother when he noted that someone from an egalitarian culture does fine in a hierarchical culture as long as they can be on top. In the second book (forget the title) that goes more into what happens after Cordelia moves to Barrayar, she talks about how she is changing because of being on Barrayar and not always liking it -- although the scene when she arrives at the conference of top military types and empties the shopping bag which contains Vorrutyer's head causes me great delight to this day! -- and later on, when she is given responsibility for raising the child Emperor, she's amazed that the male hierarchy considers this job not an important one politically. Throughout the later stories and the most recent novels set on Barrayar, the issue of how cultures change becomes more and more prominent. With more contact with the rest of the cultures in the Galactic area, with more desire for technology, and with changing generations, the patriarchal/hierarchical culture on Barrayar is changing, and that change is traced through, among other things, "personal" relationships! Reminds me of how my students always claim that America is the superior culture becuase "we have the freedom to choose what we do" while the statistics show that most people marry within their same race/ethnic group, class, age range, etc. What do those individual relationships, when looked at as a group, say about our culture? Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 09:39:43 +1300 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jenny Rankine Subject: What Makes It Feminist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C04F44.2F508BF0" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C04F44.2F508BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" As one of the women who posted about Cordelia's choices in Bujold's Barrayar novels, I want to plead misrepresentation. What I was questioning was not the way Bujold's had her deciding to follow her love and go to Barrayar (although Bujold's description of how the Betans hounded her when she got back to the planet, thereby leaving her no choice, didn't quite ring true for me). I was questioning Cordelia's lack of active involvement in public politics during her time on Barrayar, especially after Miles and Gregor hit their teens. In other words, what did she *do* with all that trenchant criticism of the society? I remember one mention of new backcountry health services which owed their existance to her, but I just find it impossible to believe that someone with such strong views and character would stay out of public politics and let the masculinist cultural mores go publicly unchallenged. I couldn't believe Bujold's description of her exerting her influence only through her husband. However, besides the minor role she plays in the later books, that's my only major criticism of the series and I love the quality of the writing and characterisation. It's my best light reading. Cera says - >I have never been able to codify my view of feminism, but whatever it >is, it allows for people to do things with their lives that I would not >myself do, so long as they are doing it from free choice. The question, of course, is what is free choice. I might have a different definition of that from other people. For example, I don't believe heterosexuality, marriage or childbearing are free choices for women in contemporary Western societies. When there is no unstigmatised or equally valued alternative, there is little free choice. I have changed my mind about the uterine replicator, by the way. Jenny Rankine Aotearoa New Zealand ------_=_NextPart_001_01C04F44.2F508BF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [*FSF-L*] What Makes It Feminist?

As one of the women who posted about Cordelia's = choices in Bujold's Barrayar novels, I want to plead = misrepresentation.  What I was questioning was not the way = Bujold's had her deciding to follow her love and go to Barrayar = (although Bujold's description of how the Betans hounded her when she = got back to the planet, thereby leaving her no choice, didn't quite = ring true for me). 

I was questioning Cordelia's lack of active = involvement in public politics during her time on Barrayar, especially = after Miles and Gregor hit their teens.  In other words, what did = she *do* with all that trenchant criticism of the society?  I = remember one mention of new backcountry health services which owed = their existance to her, but I just find it impossible to believe that = someone with such strong views and character would stay out of public = politics and let the masculinist cultural mores go publicly = unchallenged.   I couldn't believe Bujold's description of = her exerting her influence only through her husband.  However, = besides the minor role she plays in the later books, that's my only = major criticism of the series and I love the quality of the writing and = characterisation.  It's my best light reading.

Cera says -
>I have never been able to codify my view of = feminism, but whatever it
>is, it allows for people to do things with their = lives that I would not
>myself do, so long as they are doing it from = free choice.

The question, of course, is what is free = choice.  I might have a different definition of that from other = people.  For example, I don't believe heterosexuality, marriage or = childbearing are free choices for women in contemporary Western = societies.  When there is no unstigmatised or equally valued = alternative, there is little free choice. 

I have changed my mind about the uterine replicator, = by the way.

Jenny Rankine
Aotearoa New Zealand

------_=_NextPart_001_01C04F44.2F508BF0-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:48:14 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: What Makes It Feminist? In-Reply-To: <1168B489A818D411AD7F00508B2E33500EA43C@HRC02> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > In other words, what did she *do* with all that trenchant criticism of > the society? I remember one mention of new backcountry health services > which owed their existance to her, but I just find it impossible to > believe that someone with such strong views and character would stay out > of public politics and let the masculinist cultural mores go publicly > unchallenged. I couldn't believe Bujold's description of her exerting > her influence only through her husband. However, besides the minor role > she plays in the later books, that's my only major criticism of the > series and I love the quality of the writing and characterisation. It's > my best light reading. Good points all though Barrayar culture, as described throughout, would not allow a woman to hold public office (not to mention they exclude men not of the nobility for many offices) -- and given all the hoo hah over women running for office today, I'm not sure I'd put American culture in the "doing a good job there" category! she says snidely....that is, the whole conflict is that she cannot hold office or get any official role.. >The question, of course, is what is free choice. I might have a different >definition of that from other people. For example, I don't believe >heterosexuality, marriage or childbearing are free choices for women in >contemporary Western societies. When there is no unstigmatised or equally >valued alternative, there is little free choice. Excellent point! However, Cordelia comes from Beta where she could have totally free choice (and as her memories/stories of her early life makes clear, just because you're born into a fairly egalitarian society doesn't necessarily guarantee personal happiness!), including whether or not to have children, how to have them (uterine replicator or natural way), etc. And on another level, Bujold had to support her children -- and the fact that writing was available as a means is one fact, but the fact is she wanted to sell lots of books. It's hard enough for writers in America to break out of the poverty-level (in terms of earnings), even harder for writers in marginalized fields (like science fiction), and even harder for major experimental forms (like THE FEMALE MAN) or books that totally overturn conventions (and overturning gender conventions often requires overturning narrative conventions which are so implicated with gender roles) -- I still am impressed at her achievements in terms of succeeding.....which some feminists would not applaud me for since a strong philosophical bent was to say individual success is a masculinist/capitalist sell-out.....but I don't live in utopia.... >I have changed my mind about the uterine replicator, by the way. Yay? Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 12:15:50 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Nicola Griffith's "Ammonite" (Possible SPOILERS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi folks, As part of my goal to read all of the Tiptree winners, I've just finished Nicola Griffith's "Ammonite". Just in case of SPOILERS, here are some spaces: The novel is set on a world called Jeep. Colonists crashlanded there long ago; a virus killed all the men and many of the women. It also bestowed what are effectively psychic powers, including the ability of two women to fertilise one another. What struck me was that there's no discussion of the absence of men in the novel whatsoever. No-one even seems to miss them! Rather than telling us "girls can do anything", Griffith shows us a society in which they do everything. The women's psychic powers reminded me of Starhawk's "The Fifth Sacred Thing". In that novel, the quasi-utopian community have developed their magic powers for various uses. As in "Ammonite", their mental powers are natural and scientific rather than supernatural. It's irksome to think that, to pursue equality, women might need superhuman abilities! OTOH, perhaps these can be seen as an analogy for the potential of technology to even things up between the sexes. Cheers, Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:59:51 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: Nicola Griffith's "Ammonite" (Possible SPOILERS) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 12:15:50PM +1100, Kate Orman wrote: > What struck me was that there's no discussion of the absence of > men in the novel whatsoever. No-one even seems to miss them! That was pretty cool. Excellent use of "show, don't tell." I loved _Ammonite_, but not nearly as much as my wife did. > It's irksome to think that, to pursue equality, women might need > superhuman abilities! I don't think it was so much to pursue equality. At least, not with respect to the fertilization. I think it's more to show that women on Jeep can survive, even prosper, without men. Much more easily than men can without women, in fact. > the potential of technology to even things up between the sexes. IMO... Inequality is a human problem. Until both women and men get over "it," there will be inequality. What exactly constitutes "it" seems to be the focus of at least some branches of feminist sf. Butler is the most open that I can think of, off-hand. She claims that the basis is hierarchy. She goes a little further and suggests that hierarchy is inherent in humans and that perhaps it's the source of many of our problems (i.e., not just the male/female struggle). The more that I experience (I-am-only-an-egg), the more I tend to agree with at least part of her argument. Pax, -allen ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:48:55 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Nike Bourke Organization: Griffith University Subject: Re: Priestess of Avalon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maire Shanahan wrote: > I was delighted to find, in the book-stores, a new book in the Marion Dimmer > Bradley's Avalon series- 'Priestess of Avalon' published posthumously > (obviously). Last night I saw, in the new releases list sent out by the > listserve, that the series is being rereleased, but no mention of the new > book. I didn't find it at amazon either. Has it not been released in the US > yet? Mists of Avalon was very influential on me as a teenager, so I can't > wait to read the new book. this may be way off track, but i nearly bought a book for my daughter which, i think, was called 'Priestess of Avalon', only to find that it was a renamed/rereleased version of 'The Forest House'. This may be because I am in Australia - I have a feeling there was some deal with the title rights outside the US. nike ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 02:41:14 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: Priestess of Avalon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Nike, I think that the Forest House, (which I have also read) has, as you say, also been released under another name, but Priestess of Avalon is definitely an entirely new book. After reading your email, I was worried that I might have mistakenly bought another copy of the same book, but on rereading the back, and intro, reassured me it is a new book. Its actually written with MZB's friend Diana Paxson, and is about 'Helena' a figure in mythology said to be a British princess who married an emperor- the authors have linked her with the Avalon mythology. Maire Sydney, Australia ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 04:18:44 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Bujold's Works- where to start for a first-timer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love in Australia, and although Bujold's last book- the Miles Vorkosigan (?) adventure which attracted the awards- has recently appeared in book-shops- I haven't seen many others (if any) on the shelves. I am rather intrigued by your arguments ie. re PCness of Cordelia's behaviour etc. So, which is the first book? Maire Syd, Aust. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 05:21:24 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: BDG Ash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/00 4:41:59 AM AUS Eastern Daylight Time, Robin_Reid@TAMU-COMMERCE.EDU writes: << I use the term "woman-centered" for the books you say catalog with feminist sf but don't consider feminist sf. >> I liked your post- and the term 'women centred' . I have a 'book collection ' program- and, as I said, I put books ie the Sparrow, Slonczewski, with the feminist sf, and just categorise it 'women sf'- well... I know what I mean! And so I agree with your term 'women centred'; sometimes, although a book might not be all I might like in terms of feminism- it is about a woman, probably by a woman, dealing with women's lives, dealing with women's issues- However- I guess there is more to it than that, as both the Sparrow, and Children Star, have male protagonists- AS I said, I guess it's also if a book, although it doesn't explore gender, is exploring some other issue, whether of relationships, social structure, character, balance of power- in the culture the author creates in the book, and uses those exploration to comment on our own culture. And it's also necessary that the book, although it may not make any feminist points, it at least doesn't make any anti-feminist points (!). By this I mean, A book which doesn't have some aspect which makes it impossible for me to relate to it- ie male chauvinism; by that I don't just mean sexism- I mean the sexual equivalent of the white chauvinism that, for example, calls a beige stocking 'flesh coloured'. I liked what one of the judges in the Tiptree Award lists said about Slomczewski's work-the Children Star- ' gender is not explored nor expanded: It's resolved. ' That statement is exactly what I mean, though I guess that is a quality which is very rare in fiction, and probably pretty hard for the author to do. But it's a quality that I particularly love, perhaps just as much as gender exploration or feminism, though in a different way; I suppose it's heartening to see that at least one person can envision a future where gender has ceased to become an issue. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:41:10 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Emma Ferri Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C04FB9.BBD4BF80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C04FB9.BBD4BF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Heather,=20 In my opinion, Atwood is critiquing feminism. However, do you feel she = is FOR or AGAINST the movement?? Is she critiquing the feminist movement or warning us about the backlash = may result in? I'm actually writing an essay for my first year english course, and your = opinions will help greatly. This is a wide topic, and is really only a = short essay, so I was just going to foucs in on the LAWS that are = imposed upon the women in order to discuss my position. Any help or = opinions you may have would be awesome. 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=00w=00a=00r=00n=00i=00n=00g=00 =00u=00s=00 =00a=00b=00o=00u=00t=00 = =00t=00h=00e=00 =00b=00a=00c=00k=00l=00a=00s=00h=00 =00m=00a=00y=00 = =00r=00e=00s=00u=00l=00t=00 =00=0D=00=0A= =00i=00n=00?=00<=00/=00S=00T=00R=00O=00N=00G=00>=00<=00/=00F=00O=00N=00T=00= >=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00F=00O=00N=00T=00 = =00c=00o=00l=00o=00r=00=3D=00#=000=000=000=000=008=000=00 = =00f=00a=00c=00e=00=3D=00"=00C=00o=00m=00i=00c=00 =00S=00a=00n=00s=00 = =00M=00S=00"=00 = =00s=00i=00z=00e=00=3D=002=00>=00<=00S=00T=00R=00O=00N=00G=00>=00I=00'=00= m=00 =00a=00c=00t=00u=00a=00l=00l=00y=00 =00=0D=00=0A= =00w=00r=00i=00t=00i=00n=00g=00 =00a=00n=00 =00e=00s=00s=00a=00y=00 = =00f=00o=00r=00 =00m=00y=00 =00f=00i=00r=00s=00t=00 =00y=00e=00a=00r=00 = =00e=00n=00g=00l=00i=00s=00h=00 =00c=00o=00u=00r=00s=00e=00,=00 = =00a=00n=00d=00 =00y=00o=00u=00r=00 =00o=00p=00i=00n=00i=00o=00n=00s=00 = =00w=00i=00l=00l=00 =00h=00e=00l=00p=00 =00=0D=00=0A= =00g=00r=00e=00a=00t=00l=00y=00.=00 =00T=00h=00i=00s=00 =00i=00s=00 = =00a=00 =00w=00i=00d=00e=00 =00t=00o=00p=00i=00c=00,=00 =00a=00n=00d=00 = =00i=00s=00 =00r=00e=00a=00l=00l=00y=00 =00o=00n=00l=00y=00 =00a=00 = =00s=00h=00o=00r=00t=00 =00e=00s=00s=00a=00y=00,=00 =00s=00o=00 =00I=00 = =00w=00a=00s=00 =00j=00u=00s=00t=00 =00=0D=00=0A= =00g=00o=00i=00n=00g=00 =00t=00o=00 =00f=00o=00u=00c=00s=00 =00i=00n=00 = =00o=00n=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 =00L=00A=00W=00S=00 =00t=00h=00a=00t=00 = =00a=00r=00e=00 =00i=00m=00p=00o=00s=00e=00d=00 =00u=00p=00o=00n=00 = =00t=00h=00e=00 =00w=00o=00m=00e=00n=00 =00i=00n=00 = =00o=00r=00d=00e=00r=00 =00t=00o=00 =00=0D=00=0A= =00d=00i=00s=00c=00u=00s=00s=00 =00m=00y=00 = =00p=00o=00s=00i=00t=00i=00o=00n=00.=00 =00A=00n=00y=00 = =00h=00e=00l=00p=00 =00o=00r=00 =00o=00p=00i=00n=00i=00o=00n=00s=00 = =00y=00o=00u=00 =00m=00a=00y=00 =00h=00a=00v=00e=00 = =00w=00o=00u=00l=00d=00 =00b=00e=00 =00=0D=00=0A= =00a=00w=00e=00s=00o=00m=00e=00.=00<=00/=00S=00T=00R=00O=00N=00G=00>=00<=00= /=00F=00O=00N=00T=00>=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00F=00O=00N=00T=00 = =00c=00o=00l=00o=00r=00=3D=00#=000=000=000=000=008=000=00 = =00f=00a=00c=00e=00=3D=00"=00C=00o=00m=00i=00c=00 =00S=00a=00n=00s=00 = =00M=00S=00"=00 =00=0D=00=0A= =00s=00i=00z=00e=00=3D=002=00>=00<=00S=00T=00R=00O=00N=00G=00>=00E=00m=00= m=00a=00<=00/=00S=00T=00R=00O=00N=00G=00>=00<=00/=00F=00O=00N=00T=00>=00<= =00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00/=00B=00O=00D=00Y=00>=00<=00/=00H=00T=00M=00L=00= >=00=0D=00=0A= =00 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C04FB9.BBD4BF80-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:36:59 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Priestess of Avalon In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:41 AM 11/16/00 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, Nike, >I think that the Forest House, (which I have also read) has, as you say, also >been released under another name, but Priestess of Avalon is definitely an >entirely new book. After reading your email, I was worried that I might have >mistakenly bought another copy of the same book, but on rereading the back, >and intro, reassured me it is a new book. Its actually written with MZB's >friend Diana Paxson, and is about 'Helena' a figure in mythology said to be a >British princess who married an emperor- the authors have linked her with the >Avalon mythology. >Maire >Sydney, Australia I heard about this book back around the time MZB died. I had heard it was finished by her and already submitted to Del Rey, but then I got conflicting stories later on so I had no clue if it was ever coming out. I'm glad to hear that it's been released somewhere, but I haven't seen or heard anything about it again until you mentioned buying it. I just went to Borders and Barnes & Noble the other night too. I'll keep my eye out for it, but I haven't even read the other two prequels yet. Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:48:49 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Steve & Carol Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: <002001c04db2$2699b960$33f26883@uoguelph.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Where do you want to start? That's a wide open question. I've not read Handmaid's Tale for a few years, but I would say it is definitely feminist. I will try and give this some thought and get back to you Carol Ann Hull, UK > Does anyone have any ideas regarding The Handmaid's Tale and feminism?? > Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:43:10 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Emma Ferri Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to specifically address the idea that the book is a crituique of feminism - whereas Atwood is giving us a kind of warning about what effects a backlash can have. I would like to focus especially on the laws that are enforced upon the women, and how they relate to feminism. Thanks ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:10:24 -0600 Reply-To: rudyleon@earthlink.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: <001301c0500d$d7469d20$33f26883@uoguelph.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Emma, there is so very much to say about this topic, and the archives of this list and FSFFU should be of use to you. For the record, when polling a list for research purposes, it is generally more helpful to not appear that you want us, the list members, to write the paper for you. Tell us more about what you are thinking, and what is hanging up your thinking process. Why, for example, do you think HT is a critique of feminism, so on and so forth.... On 16 Nov 2000, at 15:43, Emma Ferri wrote: > I would like to specifically address the idea that the book is a crituique > of feminism - whereas Atwood is giving us a kind of warning about what > effects a backlash can have. I would like to focus especially on the laws > that are enforced upon the women, and how they relate to feminism. > Thanks > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > Rudy Leon Syracuse University Department of Religion rudileon@earthlink.net ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:50:17 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read the Handmaid's Tale years ago, as a teenager (I'm 25 now), and loved it. There was a part of the book that has always stuck in my mind- When the protagonist is thinking back over how the new regime took over, first the coup then the freezing of female- owned back accounts, so women had to depend on others ie their men, for money. And she comments that although her husband commiserated with her that it was terrible etc, she knows that secretly, some part of him enjoyed her being dependant on him. Just thinking..... ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 18:24:22 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: [BDG] - December's Selection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Discussion Groupies; Should you choose to accept it, your literary mission for November will be; "Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West, by Gregory Maguire. Discussion will be officially started by the nominator on (or about) the first Monday of December. Enjoy! Mellen For the BDG Volunteers Upcoming Books- Jan. 2, 2001 Nights at the Circus, by Angela Carter Feb. 5, 2001 The Conqueror's Child, by Suzy Mc Kee Charnas Note: The next round of selection will be in December 2000/January 2001 *************************************************************************** The BDG provides a forum for focusing discussion on a particular book during a one month period. The books discussed are nominated and chosen in advance by a vote of all members of the FSFFU-L list serve who choose to vote. Start thinking about your nominations now. To quote our list-mistress, "This does not prohibit discussion of the BDG books at other times; nor does it prohibit discussion of non-BDG books." If you have any other questions about the Book Discussion Group (BDG), it's selections, previous discussions or the Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy and Utopias Literature List Serve (FSFFU-L), you can start with the BDG website at; http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/, or the FSFFU-L website at; http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/fsflit/. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:29:14 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: Bujold's Works- where to start for a first-timer In-Reply-To: <47.3902c21.27450074@aol.com> from "Maire Shanahan" at Nov 16, 2000 04:18:44 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maire Shanahan writes: > >I love in Australia, and although Bujold's last book- the Miles Vorkosigan >(?) adventure which attracted the awards- has recently appeared in >book-shops- I haven't seen many others (if any) on the shelves. >I am rather intrigued by your arguments ie. re PCness of Cordelia's behaviour >etc. So, which is the first book? > >Maire >Syd, Aust. If you can stand some unevenness in writing, I would read them in series-chronological order, rather than the order they were written in. This would make the first book _Shards of Honor_ and the second one _Barrayar_, both books which feature Cordelia as the main character. In the US they were recently rereleased together as a trade paperback called _Cordelia's Honour_, but I don't know how helpful that will be in Australia. After that the order goes: The Warrior's Apprentice The Vor Game Cetaganda Brothers in Arms Borders of Infinity (short stories) * Mirror Dance Memory Komarr A Civil Campaign They are desperately, desperately worth being read in order; Miles' growth as a character is stunning. -- Cera [*] Borders of Infinity is tricky, as the stories take place at different points along the timeline, with a 'frame' story that takes place after the end of Brothers in Arms. -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:18:45 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: What Makes It Feminist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I usually find novels (in any genre) that set out to be feminist, disappointing. They are often far too simplistic in their analysis. There can be the premise that most men are bastards, and most women are faultless. When I was 20 I might have accepted this, but at the age of 44 I can say (thankfully in the former case, and regretfully in the later) that neither is true. Somewhere in the last 25 years I've lost any interest in the black/white contrast sort of story. It was the grey tones of Ash that I liked. Probably my favourite SF work that I would classify as deliberately feminist is Samual Delany's _Triton_ (subtitled _An Ambiguous Heterotopia_) What I see as SF's best contribution to feminist debate, is the ability to take a cliché, strip it of it's familiar context, turn it upside down, shove it under the spotlight, and then see if you still feel the same about it. For example. I found C J Cherryh^Òs Chanur saga enlightening. She creates a matriarchy not by reversing human sex-role stereotypes, but by exaggerating them. The hani aliens who are the main focus of the books have a social set-up closely based on lions. Female relatives form the family. Male offspring leave when they reach puberty and live alone, until they can oust an older male in combat and take over his harem. This means there is enforced polygamy. The violent males fight for sexual possession of the females who get no say in the matter. To a first look this might not seem like a matriarchy; except the males are so driven by their biology to compete for females that is impossible for two adult males to meet without bloodshed resulting. Therefore they are incapable of engaging in affairs outside the family - commerce, politics, education, spaceflight etc. Their time in a family is limited. As soon as they start to age they will be replaced by a younger, stronger male. All real power is in the hands of females, the core family members. The males are aggressive, competitive, highly sexually driven, unromantic and physical. They see the family is a possession. It^Òs the sort of thing often said of human males. I said that I found the books enlightening. As I read them it struck me that if half the sweeping statements made about men were true we^Òd be living in a society like the hani^Òs Jane ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:15:22 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: XLibris MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone was looking for an XLibris book? Try this... (got it off an Inklings Newsletter) Publish today! XLIBRIS exists to help YOU publish in both printed and e-books, sell through stores and the Internet, and connect with writing resources. Plus, you keep your rights--forever. To learn more, call 888-795-4274, write to info@xlibris.com, or visit http://xlibris.com/pubservices/ps_pubkit.asp, Xlibris. Where writers become authors. best, phoebe w ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:19:11 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: XLibris MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can also get any Xlibris book from Amazon.com, Borders.com, or BarnesandNoble.com - or you can just order it from a local bookstore by its ISBN. I know this because I've got an Xlibris book coming out next month, and it's already listed on two of the above sites for pre-orders. Nina M. Osier New release: "Rough Rider" (http://www.puzzlesbyshar.com/adventurebooks/bookselection/scifi.html) >From http://www.ebooksonthe.net/horrorscifi.html: "Regs," "Silent Service," "Exile's End," "Matushka" Soon from Xlibris: "Tabitha June Is a Shoulder Cat" ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:00:46 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Heather Stark Subject: Re: What Makes It Feminist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I recall that the list etiquette has an admonition against postings that just say 'yes, I agree'... -----Original Message----- Jane Fletcher wrote: > >What I see as SF's best contribution to feminist debate, is the ability to >take a cliché, strip it of it's familiar context, turn it upside down, shove >it under the spotlight, and then see if you still feel the same about it. > So instead I'll say: that's what I was trying to say but didn't say it so well. cheers, Heather p.s. re: Cherryh - I don't know *why* I like Cherryh's 'space opera' and 'culture clash' works so much - compared to, say, Tepper's culture clash works, or Ash (xref Cherryh's Cyteen). There are many similar elements, but one works for me, and the other doesn't. If I figure it out any better I'll comment further.... ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:38:01 GMT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Bujold's Works- where to start for a first-timer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Try Galaxy bookshop in the city. Clarence St, behind (and part of) Abbey's. Last time I was there, it had most of the series, as well as heaps of other hard to find stuff. Kate also in Sydney >From: Maire Shanahan >Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: [*FSF-L*] Bujold's Works- where to start for a first-timer >Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 04:18:44 EST > >I love in Australia, and although Bujold's last book- the Miles Vorkosigan >(?) adventure which attracted the awards- has recently appeared in >book-shops- I haven't seen many others (if any) on the shelves. >I am rather intrigued by your arguments ie. re PCness of Cordelia's >behaviour >etc. So, which is the first book? > >Maire >Syd, Aust. > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 00:14:30 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Emma Ferri Subject: Handmaid's Tale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0049_01C05286.DA64AC60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C05286.DA64AC60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Regarding the HANDMAID'S TALE, I am hugn up on whether Atwood is = critiquing the feminist movement in a positive or a negative manner. I = think that she is critiquing the fact thatthe feminists at the time were = so militant - with the burning of the books etc. At this time in the = 80's there was a major backlash, and I feel this had something to do = wiht the way the women were going about expressing their feelings - = burning bras, books etc. Inmy opinion they wer almost going to far, and = I feel that Margaret Atwood is trying to tell us that this may be waht = happens when you go too far - you'll get EXACTLY what you were asking = for. The women of the feminist movement were asking for more choice, but = in essence they weren't giving other women, who weren't so militant, = choices. THEY decided for all of us that bras and porno were = innappropriate. As they were fighting for choice, they were also taking = it away... Does anyone have any feedback?? Especially regarding the laws that were imposed - as that is what I'd = like to focus in on... Thanks Emma ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C05286.DA64AC60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,
 Regarding the=20 HANDMAID'S TALE, I am hugn up on whether Atwood is critiquing the = feminist=20 movement in a positive or a negative manner. I think that she is = critiquing the=20 fact thatthe feminists at the time were so militant - with the burning = of the=20 books etc. At this time in the 80's there was a major backlash, and I = feel this=20 had something to do wiht the way the women were going about expressing = their=20 feelings - burning bras, books etc. Inmy opinion they wer almost going = to far,=20 and I feel that Margaret Atwood is trying to tell us that this may be = waht=20 happens when you go too far - you'll get EXACTLY what you were asking = for. The=20 women of the feminist movement were asking for more choice, but in = essence they=20 weren't giving other women, who weren't so militant, choices. THEY = decided for=20 all of us that bras and porno were innappropriate. As they were fighting = for=20 choice, they were also taking it away...
Does = anyone have=20 any feedback??
Especially=20 regarding the laws that were imposed - as that is what I'd like to focus = in=20 on...
Thanks=20 Emma
------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C05286.DA64AC60-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 00:16:21 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Emma Ferri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0069_01C05287.1C2938A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0069_01C05287.1C2938A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How do I get to the archives for this list??/ ------=_NextPart_000_0069_01C05287.1C2938A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
How = do I get to the=20 archives for this list??/
------=_NextPart_000_0069_01C05287.1C2938A0-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:25:12 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: In-Reply-To: <006c01c052b1$053ac300$33f26883@uoguelph.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII more info about the archives is at: www.exo.net/~lquilter/femsf/listserv/ they are all online now at the server's web page -- www.uic.edu -- but it's easier to use the links from the above page. On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Emma Ferri wrote: > How do I get to the archives for this list??/ > Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:28:49 GMT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale > Hello, > Regarding the HANDMAID'S TALE, I am hugn up on whether Atwood is > critiquing the feminist movement in a positive or a negative manner. I wouldn't read this work as a critique of the feminist movement - my take is that it's about the fragility of the gains of the 70s in the face of the entrenched forces ranged against feminism (there are a number of other works from around the same time which I'd characterise as 'fear of backlash' fictions). Also, it's problematic to see 'the feminist movement' as something monolithic, even if the expression 'feminisms' was not current (when did this come in? ?Mid 80s?) in the earlier phases of the second wave. Possibly the critique, if any, is of the lack of unity and degree of infighting that distracted feminists from the real enemies? Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:40:57 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit um, Laura, I couldn't get the link to work... Maryelizabeth who just happens to want to peek at our REMNANT POPULATION discussion Laura Quilter wrote: > more info about the archives is at: > www.exo.net/~lquilter/femsf/listserv/ > > they are all online now at the server's web page -- www.uic.edu -- but > it's easier to use the links from the above page. > > On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Emma Ferri wrote: > > > How do I get to the archives for this list??/ > > > > Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:53:34 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i'm on such an automatic pilot these days that i miss things like TYPING IN THE WRONG URL FOR MY OWN WEB PAGES! try: www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/ On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Laura Quilter wrote: > more info about the archives is at: > www.exo.net/~lquilter/femsf/listserv/ > > they are all online now at the server's web page -- www.uic.edu -- but > it's easier to use the links from the above page. > > On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Emma Ferri wrote: > > > How do I get to the archives for this list??/ > > > > Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:01:12 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: eva Subject: Re: list archives In-Reply-To: <3A196229.4F58F380@mystgalaxy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > um, Laura, I couldn't get the link to work... try http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/ instead. -> eva -- http://mrow.net ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 16:42:51 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dale Marshall Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 11/20/00 12:14 AM, Emma Ferri wrote: >...the feminists at the time were >so militant - with the burning of the books etc. At this time in the 80's >there was a major backlash, and I feel this had something to do wiht the >way the women were going about expressing their feelings - burning bras, >books etc. Burning bras went on in the 80s? And what books were burned, where, by whom? Burning bras barely went on in the early 70s, iirc, and the "militant feminism" so loudly touted in the 80s and 90s seems to have been almost invisible outside academia -- with the exception of scare-mongering by Rush Limbaugh and his ilk. I recommend you read Susan Faludi's _Backlash_ for a good overview. > Inmy opinion they wer almost going to far, and I feel that >Margaret Atwood is trying to tell us that this may be waht happens when >you go too far - you'll get EXACTLY what you were asking for. Sounds like you've bought into the Limbaugh line -- but what's going too far? Actually making some strides in opening up jobs formerly classified "men only" for no good reason? Achieving management levels in business? Finally being able to get business loans without your husband or dad signing for them and set up independent, female-owned businesses that weren't out of the home and in traditionally female areas? Getting funding for girls' sports teams at schools, and athletic scholarships and tournament prizes to a slightly higher level? Getting legal recognition that it's not okay to caress, fondle, or pat female employees nor refer to them as "sweetheart", "honey", and "babe"? Yes, there are and have been some radical feminists. But the majority of women have done nothing more than ask to be treated like human beings, capable of rising to various levels of achievement, giving up dependence on men for financial stability, and arriving at whatever level of social and professional standing because of who they are and what they do, not because of who they married. > The women of >the feminist movement were asking for more choice, but in essence they >weren't giving other women, who weren't so militant, choices. THEY decided >for all of us that bras and porno were innappropriate. Wrong. Who is "they"? Neither I nor any of my female friends and colleagues cared what choice another made about bras or porn. We cared that we had the opportunity to make our *own* choices about them and about many other things, as well. It was all about choice, and it still is. Yes, there are voices who claim to speak for feminism. There are voices who claim to speak for all of humanity as well, but surely you can see how foolish an idea that is? >As they were >fighting for choice, they were also taking it away... Right. That's why when you applied to uni, you were unable to get into your first picks of schools because the seats were reserved for men. That's why when you look at a newspaper to find a job, you have to go past all the interesting, better-paying ones listed under "male only" and turn to the "female only" ads, where you find mostly teachers, nurses, and child care providers. That's why you barely have a chance to get into med school or law school or pharmacy or engineering. That's why you smile when people joke with you about attending college to get your "Mrs" degree. Oh, you don't do those things? Guess why... Dasha "I'll be post-feminist in the post-patriarchy." ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:18:09 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Emma Ferri Subject: Dress Code - Handmaid's Tale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C05315.DA9CC660" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C05315.DA9CC660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone think that the dress codes enforced in the book are relevant = to a critique of the Feminist Movement?? Do they symbolize something being taken away? Or What do the colors mean = in referance to the delegation of the women into certain "jobs", how = does this 'rule' relate to feminism.. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C05315.DA9CC660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does = anyone think=20 that the dress codes enforced in the book are relevant to a critique of = the=20 Feminist Movement??
Do = they symbolize=20 something being taken away? Or What do the colors mean in referance to = the=20 delegation of the women into certain "jobs", how does this 'rule' relate = to feminism..
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C05315.DA9CC660-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:42:45 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marcella Smith Subject: development over time Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I have a question. I would like to know about everyone else's opinion on the development of feminist satire over time. (Especially SF but not exclusive) By satire I mean it doesn't have to be funny, but more along the lines of pointing out human folly. >From Chaucer's Wife of Bath, to Salome doing the dance of the seven veils to _The Handmaid's Tail_. Sorry, I'm not explaining myself. Obviously, satiric feminist writers didn't evolve out of nothing in the mid-sixties. Who are their predecessors? Who started it? This field of literature is somewhat new to me and I have no frame of reference earlier than the 60's. Where should I begin? Thanks! Marcella _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:34:33 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: development over time: Smith MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Women writers, as among the "outsiders" most intimate with the "insiders" in most circumstances, have tended to produce higher percentages of satire than their male counterparts, I suspect. Jane Austen is not close to the starting point, but in English she's one of the most obvious and influential examples, as is (hello SF) MW Shelley...their influence on the likes of Eliot, Woolf, and in their turn as well on Russ, Le Guin, Sheldon, and presumably on C. L. Moore and Leigh Brackett before them and Atwood, Erdrich, and Piercy along with them (again, to stick with the obvious)...Big Whomping Question, that. -----Original Message----- From: Marcella Smith [mailto:marcellasmith@HOTMAIL.COM] Obviously, satiric feminist writers didn't evolve out of nothing in the mid-sixties. Who are their predecessors? Who started it? This field of literature is somewhat new to me and I have no frame of reference earlier than the 60's. Where should I begin? ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:17:23 +1300 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jenny Rankine Subject: Handmaid's Tale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C05350.6EFA14A0" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C05350.6EFA14A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I second Dale Marshall's response to Emma's post. I get really, really tired of the bra-burning stereotype. As far as I am aware, no bras were burnt at any feminist action. At one early 70s US action, women threw their bras into a trash can in protest at the industry's attempts to make our breasts into a more acceptable or sexy shape. It was the media that beat it up into women burning them. Feminists in my neck of the woods (where radical feminist actions continued into the late 80s) never said no women should wear bras, lipstick, high heels, etc etc, or that all women should burn their bras. They pointed out the ways in which the fashion industry creates unattainable ideals of beauty, making us dissatisfied with our bodies so we buy their products. I'm still a radical feminist and it was never about "more choices" for women (that is more what liberal feminism aimed at). Radfems challenged the control of male-dominated institutions over women's lives. To bring this back on topic, I don't think Atwood is showing us what happens when feminists "go too far" in Handmaid's Tale. I agree with Lesley that she was commenting on the "fragility of the gains of the 70s in the face of the entrenched forces ranged against feminism". Also on the infighting within feminism. There was no single feminist line on pornography - the US feminist 'pornography wars' certainly made an impact over here. Jenny Rankine Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand (getting a little hot under the collar) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C05350.6EFA14A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [*FSF-L*] Handmaid's Tale

I second Dale Marshall's response to Emma's = post.  I get really, really tired of the bra-burning = stereotype.  As far as I am aware, no bras were burnt at any = feminist action.  At one early 70s US action, women threw their = bras into a trash can in protest at the industry's attempts to make our = breasts into a more acceptable or sexy shape.  It was the media = that beat it up into women burning them.

Feminists in my neck of the woods (where radical = feminist actions continued into the late 80s) never said no women = should wear bras, lipstick, high heels, etc etc, or that all women = should burn their bras.  They pointed out the ways in which the = fashion industry creates unattainable ideals of beauty, making us = dissatisfied with our bodies so we buy their products.  I'm still = a radical feminist and it was never about "more choices" for = women (that is more what liberal feminism aimed at).  Radfems = challenged the control of male-dominated institutions over women's = lives.

To bring this back on topic, I don't think Atwood is = showing us what happens when feminists "go too far" in = Handmaid's Tale.  I agree with Lesley that she was commenting on = the "fragility of the gains of the 70s in the face of the = entrenched forces ranged against feminism".  Also on the = infighting within feminism.  There was no single feminist line on = pornography - the US feminist 'pornography wars' certainly made an = impact over here.

Jenny Rankine
Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
(getting a little hot under the collar)

------_=_NextPart_001_01C05350.6EFA14A0-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 20:26:28 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: KSL Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: <1168B489A818D411AD7F00508B2E33500EA464@HRC02> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3057596788_416598_MIME_Part" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3057596788_416598_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit What a distressing turn of the conversation--I don't see Atwood at all as most of you seem to. She's not attacking feminism, but rather those right-wing, patriarchal organizations of women who appeal to power-hungry women. The Aunts in The Handmaid's Tale are not allegorized feminists, but rather representatives of the anti-choice movement, who tap into a deep need for female togetherness and autonomy that we all have, but especially those nasty women who finally are too timid to challenge the sexist hierarchy. These are women who don't really want to govern, but rather to bully other women in service to a patriarchal institution. They're not unlike conservative Protestant nuns, who whose uniforms are habits that signify not woman power, but rather male rule. I used to work in politics and you know what? Conservative women, the laced-up ones who lobby against choice, are the nicest ladies. They're really huggy and sweet and they're so glad to meet you. I have been a radical feminist since the 1970s and I have always worn extremely feminine clothes. Long skirts, short skirts, low-cut blouses, tight shirts, scarves, earrings, make-up, sometimes. I also go round in jeans and tee-shirts. I've never policed my clothing in order to demonstrate my commitment to women. Right-thinking feminists don't put other women down for being sexual--why would we join the misogynist movement to restrict female desire? In desire there is a kind of subjectivity. That's the point that Atwood is trying to make. Kimberly on 11/20/00 7:17 PM, Jenny Rankine at JRankine@HRC.GOVT.NZ wrote: I second Dale Marshall's response to Emma's post. I get really, really tired of the bra-burning stereotype. As far as I am aware, no bras were burnt at any feminist action. At one early 70s US action, women threw their bras into a trash can in protest at the industry's attempts to make our breasts into a more acceptable or sexy shape. It was the media that beat it up into women burning them. Feminists in my neck of the woods (where radical feminist actions continued into the late 80s) never said no women should wear bras, lipstick, high heels, etc etc, or that all women should burn their bras. They pointed out the ways in which the fashion industry creates unattainable ideals of beauty, making us dissatisfied with our bodies so we buy their products. I'm still a radical feminist and it was never about "more choices" for women (that is more what liberal feminism aimed at). Radfems challenged the control of male-dominated institutions over women's lives. To bring this back on topic, I don't think Atwood is showing us what happens when feminists "go too far" in Handmaid's Tale. I agree with Lesley that she was commenting on the "fragility of the gains of the 70s in the face of the entrenched forces ranged against feminism". Also on the infighting within feminism. There was no single feminist line on pornography - the US feminist 'pornography wars' certainly made an impact over here. Jenny Rankine Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand (getting a little hot under the collar) --MS_Mac_OE_3057596788_416598_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [*FSF-L*] Handmaid's Tale What a distressing turn of the conversation--I don't see Atwood at all as m= ost of you seem to.  She's not attacking feminism, but rather those rig= ht-wing, patriarchal organizations of women who appeal to power-hungry women= .  The Aunts in The Handmaid's Tale are not allegorized feminist= s, but rather representatives of the anti-choice movement, who tap into a de= ep need for female togetherness and autonomy that we all have, but especiall= y those nasty women who finally are too timid to challenge the sexist hierar= chy.  These are women who don't really want to govern, but rather to bu= lly other women in service to a patriarchal institution.  They're not u= nlike conservative Protestant nuns, who whose uniforms are habits that signi= fy not woman power, but rather male rule.  I used to work in politics a= nd you know what?  Conservative women, the laced-up ones who lobby agai= nst choice, are the nicest ladies.  They're really huggy and sweet and = they're so glad to meet you.

I have been a radical feminist since the 1970s and I have always worn extre= mely feminine clothes.  Long skirts, short skirts, low-cut blouses, tig= ht shirts, scarves, earrings, make-up, sometimes. I also go round in jeans a= nd tee-shirts. I've never policed my clothing in order to demonstrate my com= mitment to women.  Right-thinking feminists don't put other women down = for being sexual--why would we join the misogynist movement to restrict fema= le desire?  In desire there is a kind of subjectivity.  That's the= point that Atwood is trying to make.

Kimberly



on 11/20/00 7:17 PM, Jenny Rankine at JRankine@HRC.GOVT.NZ wrote:


I second Dale Marshall's response to Emma's post.  I ge= t really, really tired of the bra-burning stereotype.  As far as I am a= ware, no bras were burnt at any feminist action.  At one early 70s US a= ction, women threw their bras into a trash can in protest at the industry's = attempts to make our breasts into a more acceptable or sexy shape.  It = was the media that beat it up into women burning them.

Feminists in my neck of the woods (where radical feminist ac= tions continued into the late 80s) never said no women should wear bras, lip= stick, high heels, etc etc, or that all women should burn their bras.  = They pointed out the ways in which the fashion industry creates unattainable= ideals of beauty, making us dissatisfied with our bodies so we buy their pr= oducts.  I'm still a radical feminist and it was never about "more= choices" for women (that is more what liberal feminism aimed at). &nbs= p;Radfems challenged the control of male-dominated institutions over women's= lives.

To bring this back on topic, I don't think Atwood is showing= us what happens when feminists "go too far" in Handmaid's Tale. &= nbsp;I agree with Lesley that she was commenting on the "fragility of t= he gains of the 70s in the face of the entrenched forces ranged against femi= nism".  Also on the infighting within feminism.  There was no= single feminist line on pornography - the US feminist 'pornography wars' ce= rtainly made an impact over here.

Jenny Rankine
Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
(getting a little hot under the collar)

--MS_Mac_OE_3057596788_416598_MIME_Part-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 20:51:48 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dale Marshall Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 11/20/00 8:26 PM, KSL wrote: >What a distressing turn of the conversation--I don't see Atwood at all as >most of you seem to. She's not attacking feminism, but rather those >right-wing, patriarchal organizations of women who appeal to power-hungry >women. AFAIK, the only one who suggested she might be attacking feminism is Emma. The rest of us seem to agree that she's pointing out the fragility of the situation and the anger and repression that male hatred of empowered females can unleash. The Taliban have reversed the gains women had made in Afghanistan, and it's prudent to point out that it could indeed happen here. Sheri Tepper went for the same type of story in _Gibbon's Decline and Fall_, aiming, I thought, for a wider audience than Atwood's, but her polemic was too unsubtle. Those of you who describe yourselves as "radical feminists" -- what does that mean? Jenny said "I'm still a radical feminist and it was never about "more choices" for women (that is more what liberal feminism aimed at). Radfems challenged the control of male-dominated institutions over women's lives." How else were choices achieved than by challenging both the control and the fundamental assumptions of institutions and societal customs? And if that doesn't result in more choices for women, then what does it achieve? Opting out? Naysaying? I don't see any disparity between what I would describe as a "classic" feminist (and I'm not an academic, so I have no idea what labels are current) and what you describe as a radical feminist. Dasha ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:56:22 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Li Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: <1168B489A818D411AD7F00508B2E33500EA464@HRC02> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1068868181==_.ALT" --=====================_1068868181==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jenny wrote: >To bring this back on topic, I don't think Atwood is showing us what >happens when feminists "go too far" in Handmaid's Tale. I agree with >Lesley that she was commenting on the "fragility of the gains of the 70s >in the face of the entrenched forces ranged against feminism". Its been awhile since I read this book, but if I'm remembering correctly I think the case of "getting what you ask for" actually runs the other way. I'm thinking of the Wife (can't remember her name). Doesn't Offred recognize her as formerly being a TV evangelist-type figure who was against the feminist movement? I seem to remember her making some commentary about the wife having cried before an audience and sung hymns etc only to become a basically a prisoner herself. The image sticks in my mind largely because Tammy Fae Baker was in the new around the time I read this book for the first time, so I may be misremembering. Li --=====================_1068868181==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Jenny wrote:


To bring this back on topic, I don't think Atwood is showing us what happens when feminists "go too far" in Handmaid's Tale.  I agree with Lesley that she was commenting on the "fragility of the gains of the 70s in the face of the entrenched forces ranged against feminism". 


Its been awhile since I read this book, but if I'm remembering correctly I think the case of "getting what you ask for" actually runs the other way.  I'm thinking of the Wife (can't remember her name).  Doesn't Offred recognize her as formerly being a TV evangelist-type figure who was against the feminist movement?  I seem to remember her making some commentary about the wife having cried  before an audience and sung hymns etc only to become a basically a prisoner herself.  The image sticks in my mind largely because Tammy Fae Baker was in the new around the time I read this book for the first time, so I may be misremembering.


Li
--=====================_1068868181==_.ALT-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:06:48 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Archives In-Reply-To: <3A196229.4F58F380@mystgalaxy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:40 AM 11/20/00 -0800, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: >um, Laura, I couldn't get the link to work... > >Maryelizabeth >who just happens to want to peek at our REMNANT POPULATION discussion Laura has already posted the new, improved listserv archive link, but I thought I would also point out that edited archives of particular BDG discussions can be found at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/bdg_archives.html ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Coldplay -- Parachutes "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:13:17 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: lquilter Subject: forwarding femsf-announce #1 Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu, feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm forwarding the femsf-announce list for maybe the first three issues, and after that people should subscribe to it on their own -- to avoid list noise. But at this point I'm still seeking feedback & suggestions on the list. Sorry for the duplication to the femsf-announce subscribers. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:14:43 -0800 (PST) From: lquilter To: femsf-announce@egroups.com Subject: #1: welcome, new books, call for publications Hi. This is the first "issue" of the announcements list. Pass around as you see fit, and be sure to send your announcements (corrections, suggestions) to lquilter@feministsf.org. ------------------------------------------------------------ CONTENTS: (1) Forthcoming & New Books (2) Call for Publications: FEMSPEC issue on GIRL POWER (3) On the Net (4) Awards - World Fantasy Award Winners (5) Author Appearances (6) Direct From Publisher ============================================================ (1) Forthcoming & New Books ------------------------------------------------------------ (Which we encourage you to buy from your locally-owned feminist, queer, science fiction or niche bookstores.) Marion Zimmer Bradley's THE MISTS OF AVALON will be re-issued by Ballantine this fall / winter. Octavia Butler's XENOGENESIS series has been re-released as LILITH'S BROOD: DAWN, IMAGO, ADULTHOOD RITES. Classic. Storm Constantine's CROWN OF SILENCE (is this the second in her new series?) is coming out in March. Suzette Haden Elgin's THE OZARK TRILOGY finally came back into print this spring. And, Suzette Haden Elgin's NATIVE TONGUE, the first book in Elgin's classic Native Tongue Trilogy of feminist science fiction novels is once more available, thanks to The Feminist Press at The City University of New York. (See below, for the full announcement from the publisher.) Marie Jakober has published a novel for the first time in several years, THE BLACK CHALICE -- political fantasy. (Her earlier works are hard to get in the United States, so she is not as well known as she should be.) Tanith Lee has a new one from Tor, WHITE AS SNOW, in December. Ursula Le Guin's latest, THE TELLING, came out in September from Harcourt Brace. (And I'm not suggesting you buy it from Amazon.com, but check out the interview with Le Guin on Amazon's web pages.) Susan Matthews has a new novel, not part of the Andrej series: COLONY FLEET, also released in mass market paperback this fall. Pat Murphy's second in a new trilogy, WILD ANGEL, was released by Tor in August, and THERE AND BACK AGAIN has been released in its mass-market paperback edition in October. Rebecca Ore will be releasing OUTLAW SCHOOL in November. Diana Rivers' Hadra Series continues with THE CLOUDS OF WAR, available in November 2000. http://www.hadrabooks.com/ Melissa Scott's POINT OF DREAMS (co-authored with Lisa Barnett) will be re-released by Tor in February 2001. Delia Sherman's next, THE FREEDOM MAZE, will be coming out next spring. Joan Slonczewski has a new book: BRAIN PLAGUE, available from Tor as of August. This one takes place in the same universe as A DOOR INTO OCEAN. Sheri Tepper has a new book: THE FRESCO. Out in hardback from HarperCollins in November 2000. James Tiptree, Jr.'s shorter works were finally collected in MEET ME AT INFINITY, which has been out since April. (I know, it's not new, but you definitely want to pick it up if you haven't.) Elisabeth Vonarburg has a new collection of stories out from Alire (http://www.alire.com/): LA MAISON AU BORD DE LA MER. Parlez-vous francais? Sarah Waters' AFFINITY came out this summer in hardback, and TIPPING THE VELVET, which is not sf or even fantasy (except in the sense of wish-fulfillment) was released in trade paperback this summer. Jeanette Winterson's latest is a cyberspace novel entitled THE POWERBOOK. NEW ANTHOLOGIES Esther Friesner's Amazon comedy series continues, with THE CHICK IS IN THE MAIL (mass paperback, October 2000). Nalo Hopkinson has edited a collection of "Caribbean Fabulist Fictoin": WHISPERS FROM THE COTTON TREE ROOT. NEW BOOKS ABOUT FEMINIST SF: Doris Lessing has been biographed (!) by Carole Klein. Look for DORIS LESSING: A BIOGRAPHY in late October 2000. A new study on Joanna Russ is out: DEMAND MY WRITING: JOANNA RUSS, FEMINISM, SCIENCE FICTION, by Jeanne Cortiel in May 2000, from Liverpool University Press. ============================================================ (2) Call for Publications: FEMSPEC issue on GIRL POWER ------------------------------------------------------------ From: Wayne Harde Subject: CFP: Girlpower, FEMSPEC special issue, 01/04/2001 GIRLPOWER---FEMSPEC (Special Issue)---REVISED CALL FOR PAPERS Girl power is power that comes from within. Girl power comes from celebrating femininity in all its complexity. Girl power comes from girls breaking traditional molds and becoming who they want to be, taking control of themselves and extending that control to their environment. Currently media and texts celebrate girl power in varied and innovative ways. This special issue of FEMSPEC focuses on all aspects of girl power in media and texts, and we are calling for critical articles, creative writing, and art by young adults and professionals that address this topic. FEMSPEC is an interdisciplinary feminist journal dedicated to critical and creative works in the realms of sf, fantasy, magical realism, surrealism, myth, folklore, and other supernatural genres. Submissions on all aspects of girl power and speculative fiction are welcome. We are especially interested in submissions that focus on the following: -new developments in animations and television, such as Power Puff Girls, Sailor Moon, Charmed, Kiki's Delivery Service, Barbie and the Sensations - current television shows such as Charmed and Buffy the Vampire Slayer - speculative fiction novels/series of novels and comics featuring girl power - discussions about girls writing and publishing - submissions of writing by girls - girls' websites and home video games - female superheroes, such as Xena and the women in X-Men - anime - art or photographs Submissions should be accompanied by a cover letter, including name, address, and title of the work; submissions should include only the title of the work. Please submit 4 copies. If you are interested in writing a book review, or submitting art or photography, please contact Roxanne Harde at the address below. Deadline: 1 April 2001 Critical/analytical articles: 15 pages, MLA style Creative writing: Short fiction or plays (15 pages) and poetry (3 poems) Book reviews: 500-750 words, MLA style Send 4 copies of each submission to Donna Varga, Child & Youth Study, Mount Saint Vincent University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, B3M 2J6, DONNA.VARGA@MSVU.CA Send 2 copies of each book review to Roxanne Harde, Dept. of English, 411 Watson Hall, Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada K7L 3N6 8rh@qlink.queensu.ca ============================================================ (3) On the Net ------------------------------------------------------------ The Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy & Utopian web-site has finally moved to its very own home: www.feministsf.org Watch for lots of changes, including a forthcoming new & improved (maybe even rotating) look & feel. http://www.feministsf.org/ Heather Whipple's Research Guide to Feminist Science Fiction has relocated to: http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/crit/rg.html The Ekumen: An Ursula K. Le Guin reference page: http://www.ocelotfactory.com/leguin/ and it's run by the same person who runs a new Ursula Le Guin listserv on egroups: http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/the-ekumen Ursula Le Guin Webcast on November 15. Web Access: http://chat.iuniverse.com See AUTHOR APPEARANCES, below, for more information. ============================================================ (4) Awards: World Fantasy Award Winners ------------------------------------------------------------ Lifetime Achievement: Marion Zimmer Bradley Michael Moorcock Best Novella (Tie): "Sky Eyes" by Laurel Winter (F&SF Mar 99) & "The Transformation of Martin Lake" by Jeff VanderMeer (Palace Corbie 8) Best Anthology: Silver Birch, Blood Moon Ellen Datlow & Terri Windling, eds. (Avon) ============================================================ (5) Author Appearances ------------------------------------------------------------ November 11 (and archived afterwards), Jeanette Winterson on WEST COAST LIVE. Live Show at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art (SF MOMA) (you can buy tickets). West Coast Live is uplinked to the public radio satellite, so all public radio stations have an opportunity to broadcast the show. If you have your own satellite receiver, look for WCL Saturday mornings on the Galaxy IV satellite, transponder 3, channels 13 (73.1 MHz) and 14 (57.6 MHz) from 10:00 to 11:59 PST. WHYY-FM does a simucast on RealAudio during their Saturday evening broadcast every week, and within a few days WCL places the program in their RealAudio Archive. http://www.wcl.org/ --------------------------------------- November 15, Ursula Le Guin. WC iUniverse.com Special Event November 15, 2000 @ 10 p.m. ET Simulcast on AOL and the 'Net AOL Keyword: WCEVENTS Web Access: http://chat.iuniverse.com IRC/mIRC: chat.iuniverse.com She published her first novel more than 30 years ago. She has published dozens more since then. Hundreds of awards, including Hugos, Nebulas, National Book Award, a Pushcart Prize, the Harold D. Vursell Memorial Award from the American Academy of Arts and Letters, a Newberry Honor, and the World Fantasy Award for Life Achievement dot her resume and her mantel. Millions of devout fans read and cherish her every word. She is Ursula K. LeGuin. Her latest novel, THE TELLING -- the newest Hainish novel -- was released in August of this year. Ms. LeGuin will stop by iUniverse.com's chat forums from her Oregon home on Wednesday, November 15 for a rare discussion of her work. For a transcript or more information, contact KellyMilnerH@aol.com. ============================================================ (6) Direct From Publisher ------------------------------------------------------------ > From: "London, Lisa" > > Dear Feminist Science Fiction fans: > > Native Tongue, the first book in the classic Native Tongue Trilogy of > feminist science fiction novels by Suzette Haden Elgin is once more > available to its faithful fans and to readers everywhere, thanks to The > Feminist Press at The City University of New York. > > Called "fascinating" by the New York Times upon its initial publication in > 1984, Native Tongue won wide critical praise and cult status, and has > often been compared to the futuristic feminist fiction of Margaret Atwood > and James Tiptree, Jr. Like Atwood, she explores the institutionalization > of gender bias, and the effect of science and technology on women's power > in society; but she also adds to the debate about the effect of gendered > language on society. Such themes, as well as those of biotechnology and > trade, are relevant to today's social, economic, and political > environments. Set in the twenty-second and twenty-third centuries, the > novel tells of a world where women have been stripped of their rights and > are once again thought of as property. > > In this world, Earth's wealth depends on interplanetary commerce, for > which the population depends on linguists. As the only ones who can speak > to alien races, the linguists make up the ruling class and their women are > used to breed perfect translators for all the galaxies' languages. > Nazareth Chornyak, daughter of the head of one of the linguist households > and the most talented linguist, is exhausted by her constant work > translating for trade organizations, supervising the children's language > education, running the compound, and caring for the elderly men. She longs > to retire to the Barren House, where women past childbearing age knit, > chat, and wait to die. What Nazareth comes to discover is that a slow > revolution is going on in the Barren Houses: there, word by word, women > are creating a stockpile of language to free them from men's control. And > it is Nazareth who eventually convinces the women to use the language > they've been nurturing and so closely guarding so that their revolution > can begin.The women's language, Láadan, is only one of the brilliant > creations found in this stunningly original novel, which combines a > page-turning plot with challenging meditations on the tensions between > freedom and control, individuals and communities, thought and action. > > For more information, visit http://www.suzettehadenelgin.com/ntpage.html. > Or call 212-817-7920. > > Best, > > Lisa London > The Feminist Press > llondon@gc.cuny.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:27:34 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Regarding feminists getting what they asked for... a friend of mine wrote an essay in which he suggested that, in Gilead, feminists have got one of their demands: rape has been eliminated by completely controlling women's lives. When rape happens, it's taken seriously, even drawing the death penalty. To me, his argument made little sense. Offred may deny that her sexual slavery is rape, but a choice between being a handmaid (or a prostitute) and a lingering death on the toxic cleaning squads is no choice at all. The doctors who offer to unofficially impregnate their patients are taking advantage of the same threat - get pregnant, or find yourself on the squads. A handmaid is executed for accepting the offer. The only "rapist" we see being punished is actually a dissident. So rather than rape having been taken seriously at last, it's become the cornerstone of Gilead's society. I think Atwood has simply exaggerated rape as it exists in our real world society, where rape is widely tolerated, prostitution is not a free choice but a necessity of survival for many, and all too often rape victims rather than rapists are punished. Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 19:13:34 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: <3A1A7846.930.874734@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nice discussion. A few comments. On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Kate Orman wrote: > Regarding feminists getting what they asked for... a friend of mine > wrote an essay in which he suggested that, in Gilead, feminists > have got one of their demands: rape has been eliminated by > completely controlling women's lives. When rape happens, it's > taken seriously, even drawing the death penalty. Well, it's been a long time since I last read HT, but I seem to recall that one of the Aunts (or whatever they were called: the older women who acted as "trainers") lectured about "freedom from" and "freedom of". This, it seemed to me, was Atwood's critical commentary on the Xtian right's version of feminism. Insofar as the xtian right, and other rightwing patriarchal religions, admit to a "feminism," they suggest that "feminism" is best served by playing up differences, protecting women's "special needs," etc. For example, I have heard it said that the biblical / pauline line on marriage (that the husband is head of the wife as christ is head of the church) is truly "feminist"; the rationale being that the husband protects his wife (as christ protects the body of his followers). Resisting the temptation to make bitter & sarcastic comments about xtianity, I will merely note that it is this sort of double-speak that I believe Atwood was getting at when she brought in the "freedom from (rape)" line. It's a fine point, because there *is* a feminist line of thought that plays for more protection, more recognition of women's "special needs." (In fact I've just been wrestling with this in my criminal law class discussion on rape.) But the "freedom-from" people -- both in real politics & as portrayed in Handmaid's Tale -- identify a freedom that is so far from our ordinary conceptions of freedom that it truly deserves the name double-speak. > To me, his argument made little sense. Offred may deny that her > sexual slavery is rape, but a choice between being a handmaid (or > a prostitute) and a lingering death on the toxic cleaning squads is > no choice at all. The doctors who offer to unofficially impregnate > their patients are taking advantage of the same threat - get > pregnant, or find yourself on the squads. A handmaid is executed > for accepting the offer. The only "rapist" we see being punished is > actually a dissident. Yes, and I think Atwood did a good job of pointing out that although the freedom-from argument can sound persuasive, sometimes, the places it leads are not places we want to go -- e.g., extreme abuses of state power by corrupt regimes. I don't know the whole take of your friend's paper, but from the way you've described it I can see one way of reading it. That is, that "street crime" rape -- the kind that women are ostensibly very afraid of in present-day America -- is "taken seriously" by the new administration. But of course, sexual access & control of women is institutionalized in a much more totalitarian fashion than has been the case previously. Of course that's "rape," but it's not *RAPE* -- the way anti-feminists have always defined rape (forced intercourse by strangers). The rape-trials are also the circuses of the new regime, a way for the oppressed people (women) to blow off steam, and for the state to (mis)direct their hatred & frustration & rage in a way that simultaneously secretly profits the state (elimination & discrediting of opposition). > So rather than rape having been taken seriously at last, it's > become the cornerstone of Gilead's society. I think Atwood has > simply exaggerated rape as it exists in our real world society, > where rape is widely tolerated, prostitution is not a free choice but > a necessity of survival for many, and all too often rape victims > rather than rapists are punished. > > > Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ > "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:46:18 GMT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Dress Code - Handmaid's Tale > Does anyone think that the dress codes enforced in the book are relevant > to a critique of the Feminist Movement?? > Do they symbolize something being taken away? Or >What do the colors mean Aren't these precisely about what feminism was trying to _combat_ - the categorisation of women into restricted and impermeable groups (wives, whores, mothers, etc) and making them absolutely identifiable as such? Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:23:42 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: <1168B489A818D411AD7F00508B2E33500EA464@HRC02> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:17 PM 21/11/00 +1300, Jenny Rankine wrote: > second Dale Marshall's response to Emma's post. I get really, really tired of the bra-burning stereotype. As far as I am aware, no bras were burnt at any feminist action. At one early 70s US action, women threw their bras into a trash can in protest at the industry's attempts to make our breasts into a more acceptable or sexy shape. It was the media that beat it up into women burning them. > IIRC - I believe it was the 1968 protest rally against the Miss America beauty pageant. As part of the peaceful, non-violent protest actions - the protesters placed bras, girdles, high-heels, and other "feminine" paraphernalia, such as false eyelashes & cosmetics etc into garbage bins as a symbolic protest action - as in saying "I reject your definition of feminine beauty". According to the protestors who were present, the media asked the women to set it alight - when the women said No, the news crew set the garbage bin alight themselves, using one of their own women crew to pose for the famous camera-shot. The media took this to new heights of myth-making and a global urban legend was born. It really goes to show how powerful the media is, that this staged myth has circulated the globe, and every new generation seems to accept it as fact. >At 08:51 PM 20/11/00 -0500, Dale Marshall (Dasha) wrote: >> >>Those of you who describe yourselves as "radical feminists" -- what does >>that mean? Jenny said "I'm still a radical feminist and it was never >>about "more choices" for women (that is more what liberal feminism aimed >>at). Radfems challenged the control of male-dominated institutions over >>women's lives." Radical means as it does in radishes - the root, or going to the root - ie. to the 'root' causes of an issue or subject, such as sexism. Radicals have always been the minority of all feminists, but the most attacked, lied about, beatup by the media, and the most misrepresented & mis-quoted of all feminists. Its a bit like art - hard to explain, but you know it when you see it:) Basically, the rads posit that women are a social 'class' of their own, independent of other socio-economic classes, race, ethnicity, etc, and accordingly, all women suffer 'class' oppression on the basis of their gender to a greater or lesser degree. As such, they distinguish themselves from both liberal, or 'reformist' feminism, as well as from socialist/ Marxist feminists, in terms of analysis/theory etc - but in terms of practical day-to-day activism they tend to be more often on the same side, than not. However, they may be more focussed on 'getting to the root' and directly attacking the institutions, (or in establishing alternatives to those institutions), rather than focussing on *reforming* the institutions, as many of their liberal sister feminist activists do. They do not run around burning books, or bras, and never have done - I have always been surprised why rads are attacked so heavily, and widely presented as mythical stereotypes of Big Bad Witches, ( or 'man-hating' Femi-Nazis). They do speak out on issues such as pornography, prostitution, rape, violence, (as well as religion, the nuclear family, marriage, reproductive health issues etc) - as these institutions, are seen in rad analysis/theory as major tools of oppression/persecution of women as a 'class' - hence rads will use the term patriarchy, or patriarchal institution to describe such things - hence, pornography/prostitution is argued by radical feminists as being institutions which oppress all women as a 'class' (in their current form, at least) and hence, some rads are trying to fight it legally, on the grounds of infringement of civil liberties of a 'class' - as being analagous to racial hate-propaganda against blacks or Jews would be seen. As one rad feminist mentioned when commenting on the massacre of 14 women undergrad engineering students in Montreal some years ago - the guy who killed the women, blatantly & publicly admitted to hating women in general, and feminists in particular - but the media never reported this, or played it down. If however, the guy had hurled racial epithets while massacring 14 black men - everyone would have immediately recognised, acknowledged and condemned the act as racial hatred. Probably would have started riots. One of the age-old techniques of oppression by one group over another - is Divide & Conquer. Works every time. Hence the popular focus on 'choices' - its a brilliant tactic, and it works. ____________________________________________________________________________ Anyway, back to the Handmaid's Tale, I find it disappointing that there may be a wide acceptance of the concept that Atwood is attacking feminism which "goes too far" etc. Is this interpretation now being taught in schools/colleges etc? If so, then the backlash is worse than I thought.... Although its been several years since I last taught the book, (to Year 11/12 senior high students) ...perhaps I should apologise to all my ex-students if the accepted interpretations have changed so much? As I recall the book is a feminist dystopia, (as opposed to utopia). Atwood raises a large number of issues, but I would never have thought blaming feminism 'going too far' was one of them. I must have missed something. Maybe I should re-read it? One of the themes I interpret is a 'warning' against complacency, or apathy - to everyone, but particularly women in this particular case. When I taught it, we also looked at the development of discriminatory laws against Jews in Germany in the several years prior to WW2 - a little law here, a little law there, many of the earlier ones weren't so bad.... - and many German people, including Jews never saw what hit them until it was too late to do anything abut it. The early scenes of surprise & puzzlement in HT when the main character finds all these new laws in place about finances, the status of her daughter & 2nd marriage etc also illustrates this. By the time it *dawned* on them what was happening, it was too late to escape across the border - like many Jews in those last months before it got *really bad*. Scenes like the dissidents burning books, and other actions didn't really affect the 'normal' people - they didn't question anything - again, the 'warning' theme; like the old saying "first they came for the blacks, and I said nothing. Then they came for the Jews, and still I said nothing - by the time they came for me, there was no-one left to speak at all". Since the writing of HT (and the subsequent film) - there have been a number of reversals of women's rights around the globe, and not just in those "poor Third World countries" - but also in our Western liberal democratic societies. As an example off the top of my head, here in Australia, two States have reversed abortion laws in the last 5 years, introduced legal financial sanctions/punishments against single mothers, discrimination against pregnant women in the workplace, and currently a govt initiated attack to 'water-down' the federal *Sex Discrimination Act* (1984), amongst other things. Sheesh...and now Handmaid's Tale is being reinterpreted as an attack on feminism? I better send myself off to a re-education camp.... Julieanne:) ~~~ *I'll be a post-feminist in a post-patriarchal world* ~~~ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:56:25 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Handmaid's Tale and satire Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:28:49 GMT >From: Lesley Hall >Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale > > > Hello, > > Regarding the HANDMAID'S TALE, I am hugn up on >whether Atwood is > > critiquing the feminist movement in a positive or a >negative manner. > >I wouldn't read this work as a critique of the >feminist movement - my take is that it's about the >fragility of the gains of the 70s in the face of the >entrenched forces ranged against feminism (there are a >number of other works from around the same time which >I'd characterise as 'fear of backlash' fictions). >Also, it's problematic to see 'the feminist movement' >as something monolithic, even if the expression >'feminisms' was not current (when did this come in? >?Mid 80s?) in the earlier phases of the second wave. >Possibly the critique, if any, is of the lack of unity >and degree of infighting that distracted feminists >from the real enemies? Hmm. I think there was a certain element of critique-as-satire, but of *academic* feminist *theory*: placing a politically educated, clever woman in a position where "cultural subversion" (such as "There is a bomb in Gilead") means absolutely nothing, when confronting a horde of nutcases armed with nuclear weapons. Danny _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:35:22 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale and satire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Hmm. I think there was a certain element of critique-as-satire, but >of *academic* feminist *theory*: placing a politically educated, clever >woman in a position where "cultural subversion" (such as "There is a bomb in >Gilead") means absolutely nothing, Certainly, but I don't think it was 'critiquing feminism' in the somewhat simplistic terms originally posed. Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Krashin To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: 21 November 2000 18:00 Subject: [*FSF-L*] Handmaid's Tale and satire >>Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:28:49 GMT >>From: Lesley Hall >>Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale >> >> > Hello, >> > Regarding the HANDMAID'S TALE, I am hugn up on >>whether Atwood is >> > critiquing the feminist movement in a positive or a >>negative manner. >> >>I wouldn't read this work as a critique of the >>feminist movement - my take is that it's about the >>fragility of the gains of the 70s in the face of the >>entrenched forces ranged against feminism (there are a >>number of other works from around the same time which >>I'd characterise as 'fear of backlash' fictions). >>Also, it's problematic to see 'the feminist movement' >>as something monolithic, even if the expression >>'feminisms' was not current (when did this come in? >>?Mid 80s?) in the earlier phases of the second wave. >>Possibly the critique, if any, is of the lack of unity >>and degree of infighting that distracted feminists >>from the real enemies? > when confronting a horde of nutcases >armed with nuclear weapons. > >Danny > >___________________________________________________________________________ __________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:48:12 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: My gentleman correspondent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'm currently halfway through Suzie McKee Charnas' "Walk to the End of the World", in which the "fems" are loathed as the corrupting influence that destroyed the world. Coincidentally, this morning I received one of those crackpot emails that occasionally turn up when you maintain a feminist Web site, informing me (amongst other things): "Women, generally, are a very dehumanising element in society... I think it is a credit to men that more women are not violently attacked." Do you think I should send him a copy of the novel? :-) Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.