From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thu Jul 12 20:25:30 2001 Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 07:40:05 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0011D" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:01:33 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: My gentleman correspondent In-Reply-To: <3A1BC08C.10746.D60F69@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:48 PM 22/11/00 +1100, you wrote: >I'm currently halfway through Suzie McKee Charnas' "Walk to the >End of the World", in which the "fems" are loathed as the >corrupting influence that destroyed the world. Coincidentally, this >morning I received one of those crackpot emails that occasionally >turn up when you maintain a feminist Web site, informing me >(amongst other things): > >"Women, generally, are a very dehumanising element in society... I >think it is a credit to men that more women are not violently >attacked." > >Do you think I should send him a copy of the novel? :-) LOL Kate! Now thats what I call a coincidence:) Why not? Most of the first book is from the male characters POV anyway:) I have just finished re-reading the entire 4-book series after finally receiving my long-awaited mail-ordered copy of the last book 'Conqueror's Child' - (it took a long time to be released in Australia) ...I had read the earlier ones many years ago, when they were first published - but, it was so refreshing to read them all again in sequence! As there is little or no time-lapse or break in the story between any of the 4 (or now 3) books - its amazing that the books were written over 30 years between 1st and last. Although I noticed in Conqueror's Child that there is a long sequence over several pages near the beginning, a 'tale' told by one of the main characters, which summarises the story up to the end of the 3rd book - 'The Furies' for the benefit of readers who haven't read the early parts. When I finally finished Conqueror's Child, I then went to Laura's archives and re-read all the previous FSFFU posts on the books (about this time last year I think) - which was great value too, as Suzy McKee Charnas was invited on list to speak, and answer questions about the books:) Cheers - Julieanne:) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 09:03:58 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: My gentleman correspondent In-Reply-To: <3A1BC08C.10746.D60F69@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:48 PM 11/22/2000 +1100, you wrote: >I'm currently halfway through Suzie McKee Charnas' "Walk to the >End of the World", in which the "fems" are loathed as the >corrupting influence that destroyed the world. Coincidentally, this >morning I received one of those crackpot emails that occasionally >turn up when you maintain a feminist Web site, informing me >(amongst other things): > >"Women, generally, are a very dehumanising element in society... I >think it is a credit to men that more women are not violently >attacked." > >Do you think I should send him a copy of the novel? :-) > > >Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ >"I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist As long as you include Joanna Russ' THE FEMALE MAN! >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:26:47 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: development over time Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed This probably won't be much help, since I don't have the reference with me at work, but one of my textbooks from undergrad days springs to mind. It's called "Eighteenth Century Women's Poetry" or something similar. I can't remember the name of the editor,Roy someone, I think. Anyway, it's chock full of hilarious satirical poetry, both in the mode of, and parodying, the men of the time (such as Pope and Swift). There is one particularly memorable poem, "A Gentleman's Study" which is an extremely savage, and very crude (in humour, not execution)parody, of a Swift poem about a lady's dressing room. Very much worth a look, if you can find it. There's a lot of other good stuff in the collection too. Eighteenth century women seem a lot more outspoken than those of the nineteenth century, which I must admit, surprised me greatly at the time. I'd been considering novelists such as Austen, Eliot and Shelley as pioneers of women's writing as well as of the novel - I was pleased to discover that I couldn't have been more wrong. Kate. >From: Marcella Smith >Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: [*FSF-L*] development over time >Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:42:45 -0500 > >I have a question. I would like to know about everyone else's opinion on >the development of feminist satire over time. (Especially SF but not >exclusive) By satire I mean it doesn't have to be funny, but more along >the >lines of pointing out human folly. > >From Chaucer's Wife of Bath, to Salome doing the dance of the seven veils >to >_The Handmaid's Tail_. > >Sorry, I'm not explaining myself. Obviously, satiric feminist writers >didn't evolve out of nothing in the mid-sixties. Who are their >predecessors? Who started it? This field of literature is somewhat new to >me and I have no frame of reference earlier than the 60's. > >Where should I begin? > >Thanks! >Marcella >_____________________________________________________________________________________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:57:56 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: development over time Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed What a little research can do... Eighteenth Century Women Poets: An Oxford Anthology Edited by Roger Lonsdale, $14.95 from amazon.com. >From: Kate Dall >Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] development over time >Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:26:47 -0000 > >This probably won't be much help, since I don't have the reference with me >at work, but one of my textbooks from undergrad days springs to mind. It's >called "Eighteenth Century Women's Poetry" or something similar. I can't >remember the name of the editor,Roy someone, I think. Anyway, it's chock >full of hilarious satirical poetry, both in the mode of, and parodying, the >men of the time (such as Pope and Swift). There is one particularly >memorable poem, "A Gentleman's Study" which is an extremely savage, and >very >crude (in humour, not execution)parody, of a Swift poem about a lady's >dressing room. Very much worth a look, if you can find it. There's a lot of >other good stuff in the collection too. Eighteenth century women seem a lot >more outspoken than those of the nineteenth century, which I must admit, >surprised me greatly at the time. I'd been considering novelists such as >Austen, Eliot and Shelley as pioneers of women's writing as well as of the >novel - I was pleased to discover that I couldn't have been more wrong. > >Kate. > >>From: Marcella Smith >>Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC >> >>To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >>Subject: [*FSF-L*] development over time >>Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:42:45 -0500 >> >>I have a question. I would like to know about everyone else's opinion on >>the development of feminist satire over time. (Especially SF but not >>exclusive) By satire I mean it doesn't have to be funny, but more along >>the >>lines of pointing out human folly. >> >>From Chaucer's Wife of Bath, to Salome doing the dance of the seven veils >>to >>_The Handmaid's Tail_. >> >>Sorry, I'm not explaining myself. Obviously, satiric feminist writers >>didn't evolve out of nothing in the mid-sixties. Who are their >>predecessors? Who started it? This field of literature is somewhat new >>to >>me and I have no frame of reference earlier than the 60's. >> >>Where should I begin? >> >>Thanks! >>Marcella >>_____________________________________________________________________________________ >>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >>http://explorer.msn.com >> >>------------------------------------------------------ >>This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >>discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >>unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >>LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: >> unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT >> >>Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >_____________________________________________________________________________________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:32:20 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: development over time In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:57 AM 23/11/00 -0000, Kate Dall wrote: >>This probably won't be much help, since I don't have the reference with me >>at work, but one of my textbooks from undergrad days springs to mind. It's >>called "Eighteenth Century Women's Poetry" or something similar. I can't >>remember the name of the editor,Roy someone, I think. Anyway, it's chock >>full of hilarious satirical poetry, both in the mode of, and parodying, the >>men of the time (such as Pope and Swift). There is one particularly >>memorable poem, "A Gentleman's Study" which is an extremely savage, and >>very >>crude (in humour, not execution)parody, of a Swift poem about a lady's >>dressing room. Very much worth a look, if you can find it. There's a lot of >>other good stuff in the collection too. Eighteenth century women seem a lot >>more outspoken than those of the nineteenth century, which I must admit, >>surprised me greatly at the time. I'd been considering novelists such as >>Austen, Eliot and Shelley as pioneers of women's writing as well as of the >>novel - I was pleased to discover that I couldn't have been more wrong. Ahhh..the 18th century towards the end was quite raunchy! I was surprised when reading Henry Fielding's classics - like Tom Jones & Moll Flanders:) End of an era I guess, the Industrial Revolution was just beginning to *bite* - there was the fall of monarchies, (eg. the French Revolution) feudalism was in its death-throes with massive power-shifts, from "old money" to "new money", as well as shifting populations etc - wars between the English & French etc - was quite a time:) >>>From: Marcella Smith >>>I have a question. I would like to know about everyone else's opinion on >>>the development of feminist satire over time. (Especially SF but not >>>exclusive) By satire I mean it doesn't have to be funny, but more along >>>the >>>lines of pointing out human folly. >>> >>>From Chaucer's Wife of Bath, to Salome doing the dance of the seven veils >>>to >>>_The Handmaid's Tail_. >>> >>>Sorry, I'm not explaining myself. Obviously, satiric feminist writers >>>didn't evolve out of nothing in the mid-sixties. Who are their >>>predecessors? Who started it? This field of literature is somewhat new >>>to >>>me and I have no frame of reference earlier than the 60's. >>> >>>Where should I begin? There is 'City of Women' by Christine Di Pisan, 1399 - was originally in medieval French & Church Latin, but both French & English vernacular translations existed until the 1500s when it disappeared. It wasn't republished until 1982, and it may be out-of-print again now. Its not so much satire, except in that she did use the 'style' of ancient Greeks, and contemporary 'learned men' with very witty dialogue & discourse to highlight the stupidity, and total lack of reason or logic, of the 14th century arguments about women being such witless creatures, without souls, minds capable of learning, and so on. By today's standards it may be very mild in terms of its feminist arguments, she is mainly calling for increased educational opportunities for women - but considering the times in which she was writing - (this was witch-burning times) - it must have been like a long cool drink for very thirsty women (and men) of the time, as is illustrated by its constant re-printing, translations into the vernacular etc across Europe for over 200 years:) Christine di Pisan is also hailed as the first authenticated 'professional' woman writer, who made a paid living from her writing throughout the last quarter of the 14th Century. Although she published several other works in her life, and at least one other after 'City of Women' - she disappears from the records within a few years, and her time, place etc of death is not known. Jane Austen's 'Northanger Abbey' is delightful satire - consciously written as a witty send-up of contemporary, and very popular "pulp fiction" of the early 19th-C 'Gothic' novels - of the 'ghosts in the dungeon in creepy cobwebbed castle' variety:) Cheers - Julieanne:) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 15:51:57 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: BDG: Ash, with some spoilers for the other volumes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I finished *Ash* some time ago but didn't have time to post on it until now. Having read the entire British edition, I find it hard to say anything substantial about the book without including spoilers, so be warned. What a monumental tome! I am not used to reading for such lengths of time and making so little progress. The tightly packed pages and serious heft of the book gave me a physical sense of reading an epic story even when the text itself didn't. For the first volume, at least, the spell held. Like Jane Fletcher, I thought I was reading an alternate history until certain events made me realize that something much stranger was going on. Once the literal truth of the Eternal Twilight and the reality of the golems was established I became very curious about how things were going to turn out. It's unusual for me to be more interested in a book's plot than its characters or written style, but this was definitely the case with *Ash*. Even after finishing the book I'm not certain whether I would categorize it as science fiction or fantasy. The present-day scientists do their damnedest to explain it all away in terms of quantum physics and the many-worlds hypothesis. Having read some basic quantum theory, I recognize the science in *Ash* to be a series of junk interpretations of the real thing, but does that necessarily make it fantasy rather than just bad science fiction? Dunno. As far as Ash, the character, goes... I found her irritating. I agree entirely with Julieanne's comments regarding Ash's mistakes and abrasive personality and second her doubts about how Ash maintained the respect of her troops. Looking back on the entire book, I can remember only a single battle in which Ash prevailed, but I can't count how many times she engaged in hearty cursing and bravado. Gentle seems to be saying that what counts in a leader is an aggressive, posturing personality, not results. For some, that may be true, but it would sure drive me crazy. The second book, when Ash was brought to Carthage and imprisoned, was the only time I felt real sympathy for her. I was shocked and moved when she was beaten by the guards and miscarried in her cell. And her reaction to the death of Godfrey was unexpectedly profound. But that was it. Once she was free again, she returned to her flippant ways for the duration. There was some hint near the end of the siege of Dijon that she was losing her taste for war and beginning to fear the loss of friends, but the epilogue tells us that the alternate Asche is just as enthusiastic about battle and the military life as the original Ash was. Is Ash a role model? Sharon Anderson remarked that maybe the reverse is true, that Gentle intended Ash as a negative role model. Others have commented that her imperfections make her realistic. My feeling is that the character's changelessness, along with the occasional valedictory comments from the narrator ("She was quite genuinely not afraid of injury." "She is keen, uncomplicated as a blade; with that frightening smile that she wears when she goes into a fight..."), indicate that Ash is, indeed, a hero in the frame of the story, and that her heroism is closely tied to her warrior nature. Almost the last thing she says before the transformation of Burgundy is "I don't lose." When I read that, I thought "arrogant", not "heroic". I would never throw a book, but by the end of *Ash*, I was definitely exasperated. I found some of the other characters more intriguing than Ash herself. Floria/n, in particular, was a great opportunity for some exploration of gender roles. And Fernando, such a cad in the first book, does transform into a much more likeable person later on. I was frustrated, though, by the thinness of their development. I can only wish that Gentle had spent more time on character and less on the minutiae of point arrangement and the disposition of sallets. As it is, I have to imagine what I would have liked to have happened. Did anyone else hope that Ash and Florian would get together? Or, failing that, Ash and John de Vere? My feelings about the book's feminism are mixed. On the one hand, it makes an effort to show that Ash was not alone in achieving a leadership position as a woman. Joan of Arc is repeatedly mentioned as a predecessor; Ash gains special pleasure in meeting Onorata Rodiani; her main opponent is the Faris; Charles the Bold's wife Margaret is known as a formidable military commander; women soldiers are offhandedly mentioned many times over the course of the novel. So Ash is not a queen bee. And the problem of rape is clearly an important one -- both Ash and Onorata Rodiani kill for the first time in reaction to actual or attempted rapes, and Ash's policy of punishing rape with death leads more than the usual number of women to join her camp. On the other hand, the only solution the book proposes is reactive, not proactive: if you want to avoid being raped, you'd better learn to defend yourself. Apart from Floria/n, nearly all of the civilian women are portrayed as fussy, status-conscious weaklings. Of course, so are the civilian men. The division of the world into soldiers/non-soldiers is very explicit. One of the least plausible scenes in the book hinges on it: Ash's defusing of the situation in Carthage when a band of guards are about to rape her. She appeals to them as one soldier to another and somehow their resolve is broken. I didn't believe it for a moment. In that situation, the fact of her being a woman would never be less important than her military experience. That sums up my reaction to the book, I suppose. It is a romance of the military. And as such it fails for me, as a general reader and as a feminist. But at least I can say I read it, which with a book this long is saying something. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Coldplay -- Parachutes "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.