From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thu Jul 12 20:27:37 2001 Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 07:40:06 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0012A" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:31:48 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Wicked Wow, it's Dec. 4 already and time to discuss Wicked. I would say I hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did, but Robin has already said she hated, hated, hated it. Amazing. I don't see anything here to hate. Usually I don't read books by men, but this was one that for the most part I don't think you could tell was written by a man. The only clue was that childbirth was handled, or not handled, in a very masculine fashion. Elphaba's mother chews some pinlobble leaves, goes to sleep and the baby slides out. Elphaba goes into a convent and comes out with a child having no memory of having birthed him. I don't think a woman would have written either of births, but she could have written everything else. She certainly have written of an activist woman with no maternal feelings. It seemed quite in character for Elphaba not to express personal feelings after her lover is probably tortured and killed because of her activism. I hate books in which all the good women are beautiful and you can tell the bad ones by their lack of beauty, but I also hate books in which the bad women are good and the beautiful ones are bad or at least dumb. Glinda the beauty started out a pampered social climber but grew morally and intellectually from her association with Elphaba, she had potential. Yes she went back to the pursuit of status after Elphaba's departure, but was that because of Madame Morrible's curse? I liked the ambiguity of the book, that we never know why Elphaba is green, that we can never pin down the symbolism of the Animals - animals (at least I could see them in a few different ways), her father and his great whatever religion. I liked that her father and mother both loved Turtle Heart though they didn't seem to be able to love Elphaba. I liked the fact that Elphaba seemed to think of herself as unlovable and didn't care about that but that she was able to share love with Fiyero. I liked the mysticism of the Clock of the Time Dragon - could it tell the future? Was it the personification of evil? I guess if it was supposed to be Satan then it would make sense for it to be able to foretell the future and have all it's little machine minions to do its dirty deeds. Dorothy was made to be Elphaba's enemy, but Elphaba saw her as another version of herself. Was there a Kumbric Witch? What happened to the Ozmina? Should Fiyero's determinedly self deluded wife have had all the power and prestige while her more intellectual sisters in law were dependent upon her hospitality? This was not a black and white book. People, and Animals, picked a direction and went that way, but we're never sure if it's the right way. Here's a quote: "To the grim poor there need be no pour quoi tale about where evil arises; it just arises; it always is. One never learns how the witch became wicked, or whether that was the right choice for her -- is it ever the right choice? Does the devil ever struggle to be good again, or if so is he not a devil? It is at the very least a question of definitions." Elphaba was so obviously a hero, but not to most of the characters in the book. She was briefly happy though conflicted even at that time. Her whole life was a struggle, and the book even hesitates to say she fought the good fight. I saw Billy Elliot today. In it minors are on strike and sacrificing a great deal for their good fight, but non minors look at them and know it's a lost cause. Elphaba was Oz's Mother Jones out to face the boss's big guns. This is a fairy tale I can welcome into my yellow dog democrat union house. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:02:51 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: BDG Wicked In-Reply-To: <000c01c05e85$0c20a060$2aaaea18@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I too really enjoyed reading _Wicked_. I was surprised because I had been led to believe that it wouldn't be an enjoyable read by a good friend who shares much of my taste in books. I wonder if the greatest difference between us is that she has read and loved all of the original Oz books - so much so that she doesn't like the movie version because it doesn't always concur with the book. I haven't read the Oz books at all so I only know about the story from the movie and from bits and pieces I have read that refer to the differences between the book and the movie. Anyway I found this exploration of how become the three women of the story become the three witches thought provoking and funny. I thought it was a very sympathetic portrayal of someone who previously has been portrayed as a terrible individual. I like Elphaba as a character, and for the most part I understood her feelings and motivations. A question for others who may have read the Oz books also. Does _Wicked_ actually work as a prequel/precursor to that story ? How much extra detail did Maguire create to describe Oz? Does what he created actually conflict with the original story? Elphaba is an interesting character because she insists on forging her own path in her world rather than conforming to her world's expectations for her, and perhaps the reason she works so hard for Animal rights is because she identifies more with them because like herself they are "other". I am puzzled by the idea that the Wizard is her father though. Why would that have made her green? And why was she allergic to water? Maybe I need to reread it? Rose >Wow, it's Dec. 4 already and time to discuss Wicked. I would say I hope you >all enjoyed it as much as I did, but Robin has already said she hated, >hated, hated it. Amazing. I don't see anything here to hate. Usually I >don't read books by men, but this was one that for the most part I don't >think you could tell was written by a man. The only clue was that >childbirth was handled, or not handled, in a very masculine fashion. >Elphaba's mother chews some pinlobble leaves, goes to sleep and the baby >slides out. Elphaba goes into a convent and comes out with a child having >no memory of having birthed him. I don't think a woman would have written >either of births, but she could have written everything else. She certainly >have written of an activist woman with no maternal feelings. It seemed >quite in character for Elphaba not to express personal feelings after her >lover is probably tortured and killed because of her activism. > >I hate books in which all the good women are beautiful and you can tell the >bad ones by their lack of beauty, but I also hate books in which the bad >women are good and the beautiful ones are bad or at least dumb. Glinda the >beauty started out a pampered social climber but grew morally and >intellectually from her association with Elphaba, she had potential. Yes >she went back to the pursuit of status after Elphaba's departure, but was >that because of Madame Morrible's curse? > >I liked the ambiguity of the book, that we never know why Elphaba is green, >that we can never pin down the symbolism of the Animals - animals (at least >I could see them in a few different ways), her father and his great whatever >religion. I liked that her father and mother both loved Turtle Heart though >they didn't seem to be able to love Elphaba. I liked the fact that Elphaba >seemed to think of herself as unlovable and didn't care about that but that >she was able to share love with Fiyero. I liked the mysticism of the Clock >of the Time Dragon - could it tell the future? Was it the personification >of evil? I guess if it was supposed to be Satan then it would make sense >for it to be able to foretell the future and have all it's little machine >minions to do its dirty deeds. Dorothy was made to be Elphaba's enemy, but >Elphaba saw her as another version of herself. Was there a Kumbric Witch? >What happened to the Ozmina? Should Fiyero's determinedly self deluded wife >have had all the power and prestige while her more intellectual sisters in >law were dependent upon her hospitality? This was not a black and white >book. People, and Animals, picked a direction and went that way, but we're >never sure if it's the right way. > >Here's a quote: "To the grim poor there need be no pour quoi tale about >where evil arises; it just arises; it always is. One never learns how the >witch became wicked, or whether that was the right choice for her -- is it >ever the right choice? Does the devil ever struggle to be good again, or if >so is he not a devil? It is at the very least a question of definitions." > >Elphaba was so obviously a hero, but not to most of the characters in the >book. She was briefly happy though conflicted even at that time. Her whole >life was a struggle, and the book even hesitates to say she fought the good >fight. I saw Billy Elliot today. In it minors are on strike and >sacrificing a great deal for their good fight, but non minors look at them >and know it's a lost cause. Elphaba was Oz's Mother Jones out to face the >boss's big guns. This is a fairy tale I can welcome into my yellow dog >democrat union house. > >Joyce > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:30:40 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: BDG Wicked MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Bookwomen! Long time no posting. I've been up to my eyeballs with life and haven't been able to really be a part of the discussions for a while. I first discovered "Wicked:The Life and Time of The Wicked Witch of The West" over a year ago when I was waiting for some keys to be made for my former employer's new office. I decided to kill some time by browsing the neighbouring book store. Sitting on the shelf with a little recommend read card next to it was McGuire's book. I read the back cover flap and the first couple of pages and bought it immediately. I gobbled this book up. It so rich and full and original. I love how no one is really evil or good or right or wrong. I love the whole new take on the tale and the twists and turns along the way. I was thrilled to read it again. I'm not really big on reading male authors. Except for a select few. Robertson Davies comes to mind, still I felt that despite the book being written by a man it was very much a feminist book. If anything I would say that because it was written by a man it might have a certain kind of bite that a female perspective may not have had. It may have even helped with the otherworldliness of many of the characters found within Wicked's pages. I definately give McGuire Kudous for writing several interesting and multifaceted female characters. There are far too many male writers who royaly suck in that department. (For example I just read Hannibal, the sequel to Silence of The Lambs, and I don't know what Harris was smoking when he wrote it, but Clarice was done a real diservice.) So some guys get it, others get and lose it, and more just don't get it and never will. What was perhaps the most fun was the cultural and religious histories that McGuire creates for the people of OZ. One of my pet peeves are sci-fi and fantasy books/shows/films where everyone has the same beliefs. A whole planet that all believe in the same God and practice the same faith. That's a rather Utopian ideal (Star Trek is notorious for that.). In OZ - that happy land over the rainbow - there is sexism, oppression, classism, racism, religious diferences, and wars and all those other conflicts and prejudices that make up any society (unfortunately). It helped to make the place real and gritty and tangible. > Elphaba's mother chews some pinlobble leaves, goes > to sleep and the baby slides out. Elphaba goes into > a convent and comes out with a child having no > memory of having birthed him. I never noticed that particular nuance until you pointed it out. I too found Elphaba not knowing for sure if she had a baby or not a little hard to swallow, but then I tried to believe she was so deeply mired in depression that she was only half alive. I really enjoyed Wicked. It gave all the characters from OZ some flesh and bone and soul, despite Elphaba's belief that she didn't have one. Everyone rose above charicature and became whole. I'd like to hear from some people who disliked the book. It's far more interesting to read critism rather than praise. I would like to hear why some people didn't like it. LL&P Lyla __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:25:53 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: BDG Wicked In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Re OZ/WICKET At 11:02 AM 12/05/2000 -0500, you wrote: >I wonder if the greatest >difference between us is that she has read and loved all of the >original Oz books - so much so that she doesn't like the movie >version because it doesn't always concur with the book. > A question for others who may have read the Oz books also. Does >_Wicked_ actually work as a prequel/precursor to that story ? How >much extra detail did Maguire create to describe Oz? Does what he >created actually conflict with the original story? In fact, I think my knowledge of and feelings for the original Oz novels (written by different writers after Baum stopped) is the reason why I dislike WICKED. I'd probably have enjoyed it OK if it hadn't done the OZ revision: in fact, there's no way I can see Maguire's novel as a prequel; it's a major REVISION, a turning over, a deconstructing, a re/vision. Intellectually, I can see that yes, bringing class issues in and telling the story from the "bottom" up MIGHT be a good idea (although the same strategy would have worked for just about any fantasy which, as critics and scholars have pointed out, uncritically presents a class system in which the noble/elite are always good/beautiful, etc. I loved Mary Gentle's _Grunts_ which did a similar sort of bottoms/up revision to Tolkien (and I loved Tolkien's LOTR as well, but not as much as Oz). When I started first grade (unfortunately at age 5 and far too socially immature), I almost immediately got into trouble because I was reading at a 4th grade level and I'd learned through word recognition (being read to, memorizing my favorite stories, learning to puzzle out what the words meant by "reading" over the stories on my own, at about age three). Unfortunately, phonics and the post-war demand for being average or the same was in full fledge in Idaho in 1960, and the teachers at the school got very upset with me for reading wrong. So I stopped reading. What saved me was my best friend introducing me to an Oz book; it was so cool I had to start reading again. (A second thing that saved me was my father being a university professor who could, oh, shame, pull gender privilege and professional status over female elementary teachers!) Cody, my friend, and I read all the Oz books (I still remember them, big fat books, bound in green, with gold letters on the covers) for years and years and years -- we probably had them memorized-- and yes, I don't much like the movies either. Growing up in a male-dominated conservative environment (northern Idaho in the fifties and sixties), those books provided a major escape for me and a vision of a life and literature that implied one didn't have to get married (Ozma and Dorothy didn't!), and a sense of empowerment (which would horrify some feminists, I know!). Those books are tied up in a major way and are, for me, sacred texts in a way I cannot defend rationally, only emotionally......and as a result I hated Maguire (I also hated Piers Anthony's novel _Barn Burners in Oz_ that had a stunt pilot, adult male, end up in Oz and have sex with Glenda!). Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:16:32 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Saille Warner Norton Subject: Wicked news Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Well, since Wicked is the current discussion, though this might be of interest. **** http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2000-12/05/11.00.tv Moore Mulled For Witch Demi Moore is under consideration to star in a four-hour ABC miniseries based on Gregory Maguire's fantasy novel Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West, based on the character created by The Wizard of Oz author L. Frank Baum, according to The Hollywood Reporter. Alliance Atlantis will produce the miniseries. The novel tells the life story of the witch of Oz, while also examining the effects of evil, the trade paper reported. Moore and her producing partner Suzanne Todd originally held the option for the book, but those rights lapsed. Alliance is interested in talking to Moore about starring in the miniseries, though she is reportedly more interested in producing the project as a feature rather than starring in it, the trade paper reported. **** A brief intro from me. I've been lurking for a couple of weeks now. I've been a fan of feminist SF lit ever since I can remember, but I've never had anyone to discuss what I've been reading before. I'm ashamed to admit that I've fallen out of practice. I couldn't find the book list anywhere, though. Would appreciate it if someone could send it to me privately. Anyway, I read Wicked when it was first published, and enjoyed it so much. I haven't read any of the Baum books, but it seemed to my uneducated self that Wicked was in keeping with those books, insofar as the use of characters as symbols for societal elements go. For those of you who didn't like Wicked because of its differences to Baum, I'm curious. I've always thought of the Oz books as social commentary on the industrial age, rather than children's books. Is not Wicked along these same lines? Saille ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 03:55:49 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Wicked I feel so much better, Robin, to find that you hated Wicked only because you liked the Oz books so much. I was afraid there were some glaring literary errors that completely went over my head. I didn't think Wicked had much to do with the original Oz. I know the story only from the movie, but I really liked this alternate view of it. I like the alternate views of fairy tales that the list has read: The Snow Queen and Kiss the Witch. We get accustomed to reading the same old good = beautiful, submissive and obedient, bad = ugly, headstrong, and unsatisfied that it's refreshing to me to see a more accurate or healthier version of human potential. I think that's a major component of feminist literature, to show characters who react to the status quo by questioning who benefits from the rules, who is harmed, who has choices and who is supposed to be content merely to be "good". From the movie it appeared that Dorothy was such a character, but what other female got to be both self directed and a positive character? Oh, you said Ozma did, but she didn't figure at all in the movie, so I missed that emphasis. I recently read that Baum based his feminism on his activist, feminist mother in law. He was both a feminist and a racist (as far as Native Americans were concerned). You wouldn't think the two world views could coincide, but I guess they can. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 05:21:22 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: BDG Wicked MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did anyone else find WICKED hard going because of the language/author's voice/whatever? I gave up not too far in because while I was interested in the concept, the writing wasn't holding my attention. Also, has anyone read WAS by Geoff Ryman? How did it compare to WICKED? Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:21:57 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG Wicked MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/6/00 6:59:43 AM, hoop5@LVCM.COM writes: << I didn't think Wicked had much to do with the original Oz. I know the story only from the movie, but I really liked this alternate view of it. >> I read this when it first came out. It was recommended by a book-seller who watched me browse with a frown. My strongest memory of it was that at the end, I started slowing down my reading as the juggernaut that was Dorothy came ever nearer to Elphaba. I didn't want her destroyed. best, phoebe w ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:53:01 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: BDG Wicked In-Reply-To: <3A2E3D52.186D4872@mystgalaxy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi, Wow, I didn't have any trouble reading _Wicked_ at all, actually I had trouble putting it down! There was something about it, I guess because I kept looking for places where it went with the bits and pieces of the story I remember from the movie, but also because I really liked Elphaba despite the fact that she was definitely a prickly person. It's funny too because I guess we all know the ending since it had to match the existing story, but I was still disappointed when it finally came, for I knew that that meant we wouldn't be able to find out more about the parts of the story that hadn't already told. I guess I really enjoyed that alternative perspective. Six or so years a go I read _The Child Garden_ by Geoff Ryman and really enjoyed it, but I've never seen anything else by him. Is _Was_ also about OZ? It also must be newer than _The Child Garden_ because it's not mentioned in the endpapers. Rose >Did anyone else find WICKED hard going because of the language/author's >voice/whatever? I gave up not too far in because while I was interested >in the concept, the writing wasn't holding my attention. > >Also, has anyone read WAS by Geoff Ryman? How did it compare to WICKED? > >Maryelizabeth > > >-- >******************************************************************* >Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 >7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 >San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 >http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: >mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com > >******************************************************************* > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:54:27 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: BDG Wicked In-Reply-To: <3A2E3D52.186D4872@mystgalaxy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >Also, has anyone read WAS by Geoff Ryman? How did it compare to WICKED? > >Maryelizabeth I just went out to Amazon to find a description of _Was_. I am really surprised after reading the review from Kirkus that the folks who wrote recommendations all seemed to agree that they liked the book. They all use the word "haunting" , and I 'll agree that it certainly sounded haunting, only to me the description made it seem as if it would be disturbing. Yet everyone who commented seemed to say that it was memorable in a good way. Thanks for mentioning it, Maryelizabeth, perhaps I'll try to find a copy at a library - I am not sure that it is one I would want to own. Rose ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:35:15 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Margaret McBride Subject: Re: BDG Wicked MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Maryelizabeth wrote: >Did anyone else find WICKED hard going because of the language/author's voice/whatever? When I thought of questions I might ask about WICKED, my first reaction was to ask about the voice. I can't quite decide how to label what seems slightly off to me about the voice--some sort of ironic, distancing tone that bothers me. The way Estie's parents are described and Glinda at first puts a little too much emphasis on their foibles? >Also, has anyone read WAS by Geoff Ryman? How did it compare to WICKED? I put WAS on my "read again because there's a lot going on here that I've missed on first reading" list. Rereading WICKED may be the impetus to pull WAS off the shelf again. I quite liked it but it's very different. It has three threads: the real Dorothy who is an abused school girl taught by Baum, Judy Garland's childhood, and a man dieing of AIDS who is intrigued by Judy and the Wizard of Oz story and is going to Kansas to see if he can find the real Dorothy still alive. Margaret M. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:38:48 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: BDG Wicked MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rose: Seems like it's been forever since I read WAS, and I'm not likely to reread it, but it definitely stuck with me, especially its combination of Oz characters and "real" people who helped create the Oz that is part of our cultural consciousness. Pax, Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:07:54 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Catherine Asaro Event at Mysterious Galaxy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Late Breaking News! SF Author: Catherine Asaro Titles: QUANTUM ROSE and THE PHOENIX CODE QUANTUM ROSE is the latest in the tales of the Skolian Empire, and THE PHOENIX CODE divides one woman's loyalty between man and machine. Event Time: Saturday, December 23, 2:30 PM -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:07:13 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: BDG Wicked In-Reply-To: <001e01c05f7b$7a460840$2aaaea18@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:55 AM 12/06/2000 -0800, you wrote: >I feel so much better, Robin, to find that you hated Wicked only because you >liked the Oz books so much. I was afraid there were some glaring literary >errors that completely went over my head. Nope! It's just that issue of reader response, how much we as readers respond to a text based on our own history. I teach creative writing, and this term a student asked me what she could do to make absolutely sure her readers understood her intent. I told her, nothing! Since the students workshop in groups, they soon find out that different readers see very different things. >I recently read that Baum based his >feminism on his activist, feminist mother in law. He was both a feminist >and a racist (as far as Native Americans were concerned). You wouldn't >think the two world views could coincide, but I guess they can. Ive heard that too -- Matilda Gage? I've forgotten her name, but yes. Unfortunately, the 19th and 20th century show that white feminists, as products of their society, are quite capable of being racist (and homophobic). After African American men were granted the vote, white suffragists campaigned for white women to receive the vote with explicitly racist propaganda (claiming that white women's votes were needed to offset the black male vote); 19th century white women's groups specifically excluded black women as members; and, in the 20th century, a large number of books by women of color published in the 1980's pointed out racist assumptions on the part of white middle class feminists. Suffering oppression does not necessarily mean one cannot be bigoted or inflict oppression, or be a part of institutionalized oppression. A really good book to read is "invisible privilege: a memoir about race, class & gender" by paula rothenberg (lack of capitals in the title and name on the book). This memoir is rothenberg's deconstruction of her own white and class privilege; I plan to use it in my graduate seminar on multicultural literature this summer. Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 22:58:47 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: BDG Wicked Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Unfortunately, I couldn't find _Wicked_ at my local SF bookshop, so I can't make any comparisons, but _Was_ is terrific. I certainly found it haunting, and disturbing - it's one of those books that stays with you for a long time. I do recommend buying a copy - I'll certainly be reading mine again. In fact, I might nominate it for a future BDG discussion, since it deals with a whole lot of really interesting ideas. It's a very difficult book to describe in any way that does it justice, but I really love the way it treats the intertwining of the Baum novels, the Judy Garland movie and "real people" into an Oz mythology. It embodies a lot of ideas within literary and cultural theory about how stories interact with each other and how they are created by and impact on various people in very different ways. All three strands of the novel are powerful - Ryman's writing is deeply emotionally affective, without ever lapsing into sentimental manipulation of the reader. I recommend it highly. Changing threads, on the topic of the interlinking of feminism and racism, Kathleen M. Blee's _Women of the Klan_ is definitely worth a look. Surprised - and disturbed - the hell out of me with the information that the KKK was a major campaigner for votes for women. Not to mention a lot of other very weird stuff. Kate. Rose wrote: >I just went out to Amazon to find a description of _Was_. I am really >surprised after reading the review from Kirkus that the folks who >wrote recommendations all seemed to agree that they liked the book. >They all use the word "haunting" , and I 'll agree that it certainly >sounded haunting, only to me the description made it seem as if it >would be disturbing. Yet everyone who commented seemed to say that it >was memorable in a good way. >Thanks for mentioning it, Maryelizabeth, perhaps I'll try to find a >copy at a library - I am not sure that it is one I would want to own. > >Rose > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:24:36 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: Dune Did any of you watch the new Dune? I thought it was just horrible, the acting was insipid, those neon blue eyes were ridiculous, the Bene Gesserit were just a nasty group of women with a breeding program, the program to conserve water - so emphasized in the first movie and book - was not well developed. I was surprised to hear so many people on another list who thought it was marvelous. I admit, I was so disappointed with it that I didn't pay it much attention. Did I miss all the good parts. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:25:40 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Dune In-Reply-To: <001401c05fdb$b3883aa0$2aaaea18@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:24 PM 12/6/00 -0800, you wrote: >Did any of you watch the new Dune? I thought it was just horrible, the >acting was insipid, those neon blue eyes were ridiculous, the Bene Gesserit >were just a nasty group of women with a breeding program, the program to >conserve water - so emphasized in the first movie and book - was not well >developed. I was surprised to hear so many people on another list who >thought it was marvelous. I admit, I was so disappointed with it that I >didn't pay it much attention. Did I miss all the good parts. > >Joyce Wow! What other lists are you on that are praising the Dune miniseries? I've hear almost all negative comments about it around the net. My boyfriend and I both didn't like it very much either, and a friend of his thought it was just okay. I, of course, like the book best, but I still like the David Lynch version of the movie- perhaps because that's what got me to read Dune at age 12. I agree about the Bene Gesserit. Lady Jessica wasn't very strong in the miniseries like she was in the book- and even in the Lynch version. The only strong woman in the whole miniseries seemed to be Irulan, but she was a schemer and she was all seductive (which really bugged me). Jennifer- needing to reread Dune and continue on with the series ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:50:03 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Saira Ramasastry Subject: Re: Hello! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Kate, I just wanted to introduce myself - I'm a new fan of your work. I saw you on the FSF-L list and investigated some of your writing. :) I've just read Walking to Babylon and found it absolutely spectacular! Your writing style is breathtaking, and I'm hoping to re-read the novel over the holidays to soak in some of the descriptions. I've been lurking on the list for a long time, but am extremely shy about posting. I think I've only sent out one email and it was two sentences long. :) I'm a new author myself, and just published my debut novel entitled "Heir to Govandhara". It's a fantasy novel that borrows themes from South Asian culture. The story focuses on a young woman named Sri, who was born into the ruling class of her Kingdom and intended to be the wife of the next King. She must define herself within the confines of a rigid culture -- to be a true Queen as expected by her people, while remaining the very picture of a traditional Kasimian woman. I am very excited about the story, as it is personal to me. I grew up in a very traditional Indian home, and pursued a life that is outside the expectations of my family's culture. If you have a chance, I'd be honored if you would check out the book website: http://www.heirtogovandhara.com. Take care! Saira Ramasastry sairama@earthlink.net www.heirtogovandhara.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 17:11:30 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Saira Ramasastry Subject: Sorry! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello there! Sorry about that post! It was meant for a user not for the whole list. I'm terrible when it comes to user-list protocol! Forgive an ignorant soul! :( ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 05:34:52 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: BDG Wicked MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi- I also enjoyed Wicked. I have read the original Oz book by Baum, and seen the movie. In relation to whether Wicked could be a prequel/ wether it contradicts Baum etc, I would say that while, in a manner of speaking I guess it could be a prequel, and , nothing DOES contradict Baum, they are such completely different books, with very different purposes, that the question os really besides the point. Maguire has turned a children's story, into an adults' basically, which means including a lot of info as to the whys and wherefores. Anyway, as I said I very much enjoyed the book. I loved the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe as a child, and I think Wicked kind of evoked a similar response in me- just the richness and imagination of the setting. Quibbles- there was a lot of discussion as to the meaning of evil etc, which I had to stop myself sliding past. I couldn't quite see the point of it- it didn't seem to be intended to be taken seriously, but wasn't funny- and one things for sure, it didn't enlighten this reader any as to the nature of evil. That is, apart from the main message of the book, anyway- which you pretty much get fro reading the title- ie that there are 2 sides to every story- a history or tale with an evil character may have had a very different reality. Women in particular are vulnerable to the evil witch syndrome, which id why I loved mists of Avalon by MZB. I loved the way she retold the Arthurian story from the perspective of one traditionally considered the villain of the peace, and was both sympathetic and convincing, and so when I saw Wicked, I immediately loved the concept. (As for WAS by Geoff Ryman, I believe it is a sort of 'realism- based' retelling of Oz, from the point f view of a woman in an insane asylum- I THINK! That's based on my hazy recollection of reviews of it anyway. ) I loved the idea of the motivations and thought processes of one whose actions are considered evil, being revealed. So we can see the chain of events leading up to the fateful decision, the incidents that formed the character etc. I suppose the most influential event in Elphaba's life was the death of her lover- in such a way that she would have felt responsible- and perhaps the juxtaposition of Dr DIllamond and Madame Morrible- Dr DIllamond. The Animal activist on the side of good, contrasting with the sinister Madame Morrible- as well as the effect of their respective fates- his violent demise, whilst Madame Morrible became increasingly powerful- rather disillusioning to the youthful Elphaba As someone commented, it would have been nice to know what Elphaba WAS exactly. ie why was she green. Why was she important to the Clock, the dwarf, Yackle etc. But, as s to the greenness, I think that mystery really helped to understand Oz's atmosphere. or society. A world where, a human girl could be born green, and it would be bizarre, it would be remarked upon, and certainly a social disadvantage- but it COULD happen and people would ultimately accept it Something I found interesting was the suggestion that , had not Elphaba abandons her friends at Oz, and gone underground, they would perhaps have turned out rather better. ie that it was the devastating effect of her abandoning them, that was responsible for Glinda's regression into superficial social climber, Nessarose's into fanatical and cruel religion etc Something else I found mildly irritating was the sort of boarding school 'chummy', 'Jenning's School days' tone in the period Elphaba was at university- ie 'the friends sat down and had tea' etc- (the friends, mind you, being as unlikely a group as you could find' And I can only wish that childbearing had left as little mark on me as it did on Elphaba! Even if Elphaba was in a COMA for the period during and after her pregnancy- surely there would have been at least a stretch mark about as a memorial of her 'journey into motherhood'? Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:13:35 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: BDG Wicked In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi, Actually, I understand what you mean about the different purposes of the books, but thankyou for the comment that "nothing does contradict Baum" - I think that is really what I was seeking to know. Also I seem to recall reading somewhere about the other issues Maguire touched upon and supposedly there are things in his story that are supposed to be able to be read as political commentary about the Nixon era etc. I was looking for that as I read it, but I guess I missed it because I couldn't see naything that was a parody / allegory or whatever related to what I vaguely remember of those years. Was the wizard supposed to represent the president? As I was reading I assumed that it had something to do with silencing the Animals, but I am not sure what that stands for in our world. Also, just to continue playing dumb for a while (since I am still trying to come to terms with a comprehensible, readily-reproducible-in-my-mind meaning of feminism / feminist) , would _Wicked_ be considered feminist, and why? I think it is simply because it offers a perspective on a woman's life that differs from the standard socially acceptable one. Elphaba is a complex character who chooses to try to make a difference in her world. But there is also the issue of her sewing the wings on the monkeys - that makes her more of a monster - except that it also is reminiscent of Mary Shelly and Frankenstein. Somehow I think that all the discussion of evil somehow fits in with these ideas and with her need to know what the relationship is between the acts of the Wizard, Madame Morrible, and the other characters who also do things that we most likely saw as reprehensible. Or is the discussion of evil supposed to be part of what makes the book political commentary? Rose >Hi- >I also enjoyed Wicked. I have read the original Oz book by Baum, and seen the >movie. In relation to whether Wicked could be a prequel/ wether it >contradicts Baum etc, I would say that while, in a manner of speaking I guess >it could be a prequel, and , nothing DOES contradict Baum, they are such >completely different books, with very different purposes, that the question >os really besides the point. Maguire has turned a children's story, into an >adults' basically, which means including a lot of info as to the whys and >wherefores. >Anyway, as I said I very much enjoyed the book. I loved the Lion, the Witch >and the Wardrobe as a child, and I think Wicked kind of evoked a similar >response in me- just the richness and imagination of the setting. >Quibbles- there was a lot of discussion as to the meaning of evil etc, which >I had to stop myself sliding past. I couldn't quite see the point of it- it >didn't seem to be intended to be taken seriously, but wasn't funny- and one >things for sure, it didn't enlighten this reader any as to the nature of >evil. >That is, apart from the main message of the book, anyway- which you pretty >much get fro reading the title- ie that there are 2 sides to every story- a >history or tale with an evil character may have had a very different >reality. Women in particular are vulnerable to the evil witch syndrome, which >id why I loved mists of Avalon by MZB. I loved the way she retold the >Arthurian story from the perspective of one traditionally considered the >villain of the peace, and was both sympathetic and convincing, and so when I >saw Wicked, I immediately loved the concept. >(As for WAS by Geoff Ryman, I believe it is a sort of 'realism- based' >retelling of Oz, from the point f view of a woman in an insane asylum- I >THINK! That's based on my hazy recollection of reviews of it anyway. ) >I loved the idea of the motivations and thought processes of one whose >actions are considered evil, being revealed. So we can see the chain of >events leading up to the fateful decision, the incidents that formed the >character etc. I suppose the most influential event in Elphaba's life was the >death of her lover- in such a way that she would have felt responsible- and >perhaps the juxtaposition of Dr DIllamond and Madame Morrible- Dr DIllamond. >The Animal activist on the side of good, contrasting with the sinister >Madame Morrible- as well as the effect of their respective fates- his violent >demise, whilst Madame Morrible became increasingly powerful- rather >disillusioning to the youthful Elphaba >As someone commented, it would have been nice to know what Elphaba WAS >exactly. ie why was she green. Why was she important to the Clock, the dwarf, >Yackle etc. But, as s to the greenness, I think that mystery really >helped to understand Oz's atmosphere. or society. A world where, a human girl >could be born green, and it would be bizarre, it would be remarked upon, and >certainly a social disadvantage- but it COULD happen and people would >ultimately accept it >Something I found interesting was the suggestion that , had not Elphaba >abandons her friends at Oz, and gone underground, they would perhaps have >turned out rather better. ie that it was the devastating effect of her >abandoning them, that was responsible for Glinda's regression into >superficial social climber, Nessarose's into fanatical and cruel religion etc >Something else I found mildly irritating was the sort of boarding school >'chummy', 'Jenning's School days' tone in the period Elphaba was at >university- ie 'the friends sat down and had tea' etc- (the friends, mind >you, being as unlikely a group as you could find' >And I can only wish that childbearing had left as little mark on me as it did >on Elphaba! >Even if Elphaba was in a COMA for the period during and after her pregnancy- >surely there would have been at least a stretch mark about as a memorial of >her 'journey into motherhood'? >Maire > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:54:33 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: BDG Wicked In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" This is just a facetious reply, but perhaps she had used so much oil to bathe /clean up that she was not subject to stretch marks as the rest of us are. Actually there's a bit of a hitch too in that if she were unconcious during much of that whole time how did she ever manage not to be destroyed much sooner - wouldn't you think that the maunts would have tried to bathe her etc. ? > >Even if Elphaba was in a COMA for the period during and after her pregnancy- >surely there would have been at least a stretch mark about as a memorial of >her 'journey into motherhood'? >Maire > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:01:42 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: Dune In-Reply-To: <001401c05fdb$b3883aa0$2aaaea18@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I watched the first evening's version and was not at all impressed, didn't bother watching any more. BUt then I was pretty disappointed with the D. Lynch version as well! It would be a hard book to adapt to film, I'd think. My housemate who hadn't read it though they did a pretty good job with the sandworms! R At 03:24 PM 12/06/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Did any of you watch the new Dune? I thought it was just horrible, the >acting was insipid, those neon blue eyes were ridiculous, the Bene Gesserit >were just a nasty group of women with a breeding program, the program to >conserve water - so emphasized in the first movie and book - was not well >developed. I was surprised to hear so many people on another list who >thought it was marvelous. I admit, I was so disappointed with it that I >didn't pay it much attention. Did I miss all the good parts. > >Joyce > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:43:23 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Patricia P. Lillquist" Subject: Re: BDG Wicked Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Wasn't one of the maunts a character that kept popping up in her life? Maybe she knew about the water and also was able to affect her memory of the birth. I found the book impossible to put down, and I had expected not to like it at all, because the whole premise seemed hokey. Rose Reith on 12/07/2000 08:54:33 AM Please respond to "Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC" To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU cc: (bcc: Patricia P. Lillquist/BCDES/DCDPAH/CCH/OPH/DOH) Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Wicked This is just a facetious reply, but perhaps she had used so much oil to bathe /clean up that she was not subject to stretch marks as the rest of us are. Actually there's a bit of a hitch too in that if she were unconcious during much of that whole time how did she ever manage not to be destroyed much sooner - wouldn't you think that the maunts would have tried to bathe her etc. ? > >Even if Elphaba was in a COMA for the period during and after her pregnancy- >surely there would have been at least a stretch mark about as a memorial of >her 'journey into motherhood'? >Maire > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:23:01 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: M McCauley Organization: @Home Network Subject: BDG: Wicked MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin writes: "Cody, my friend, and I read all the Oz books (I still remember them, big fat books, bound in green, with gold letters on the covers) for years and years and years -- we probably had them memorized-- " I've seen these editions - lovely, really - but the ones I read growing up were reissues from Ballantine in softcover; they released one every few months and I used to check the book racks at Towers (think Stedmans, Woolco, Target, for those who weren't blessed with a Towers store downtown ;)) religiously, every Saturday, waiting for the next one to arrive. Looking back, I've no idea why I didn't just borrow them from the library but I guess it was more magical to be allowed to spend $2 for my own copy and read and re-read ad nauseum. Or, as Robin said, to memorize my favourite scenes and act them out. Judging by the shape of them now, it seems my favourites were The Emerald City of Oz and Ozma of Oz. Of course my copy of Wicked looks worse than either of these, having picked it up second-hand, so perhaps that's not the best criterion. Lyla writes: "If anything I would say that because it was written by a man it might have a certain kind of bite that a female perspective may not have had." Perhaps; a few times I caught myself snorting at a sentence and thinking that it would be received very differently if the author were female. "Where's my SELF, anyway? Where'd I leave that tired old thing?" "Ah, we're slow learners, Nanny countered. But THEY [men] can't learn at all." Joyce writes: "The only clue was that childbirth was handled, or not handled, in a very masculine fashion. Elphaba's mother chews some pinlobble leaves, goes to sleep and the baby slides out." Maybe the birth would have been described differently, or at greater length; however, at least there was *some* acknowledgement of the pain. I've heard that this is a fairly common request in delivery rooms even outside of Oz, actually. "No, I cannot be moved, thought Melena, and if the peasants find Frex tell them to kill him good and hard for me, for I never knew a pain so extraordinary that it made me see the blood behind my own eyes. Kill him for doing this to me." As for why she was green? Maybe there was something to Nanny's idea about the giggling elves. Melena recalls "...when a tinker with a funny accent gave me a draft of some heady brew from a green glass bottle": the "miracle elixir". However, I'm only in Part Two, so maybe I should keep my mouth shut until I've read further. But given that my copy of Tepper's Fresco has just arrived from the library, I might just have to set Wicked aside briefly with duedates in mind, so I'll pipe up now and then settle back with a cup of tea. Why is it that all the good books arrive at once, just when you have the least amount of time to indulge? Marcie, enjoying the discussion as much as the book ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:49:57 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Frances Subject: Gibbon's Decline and Fall: the choice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've just finished re-reading (4th time, I think) Sheri Tepper's "Gibbon's Decline and Fall". Those who have read it and remember the choices Carolyn was offered at the end: what would you have chosen? (Can this be discussed without "spoiling", assuming anyone is interested?) I've been trying to consider the pros and cons of each path. Frances ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 19:01:59 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Margaret McBride Subject: BDG: WICKED MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I finished WICKED this morning and remember why I kept it the first time I read it and also why it didn't go on my "this one is worth rereading" list. I like the complexity of description and the making of a world that is not mono-cultural. I like the revisionism (I'm drawn to and teach a class about older stories in modern retellings). I actually like about some things are hinted at and left fuzzy (I don't want my SF to always explain all the details just as I don't need a contemporary book to explain microwaves and I allow my sf authors to use made-up slang just as I let mundane authors talk about "zapping" or "nuking" food. However (and this is a reader response criticism as Robin described not a more general comment about style, author technique, etc.) the ending doesn't work for me. I don't end with that satisfied sigh. One of the final messages is that we need a belief in some kind of god, soul and afterlife to be happy?? The book is also too deterministic in a way that doesn't add to my understanding of humans. The characters are either so shaped by their relationships with their parents and/or some conniving character/Fate that they seem to lose too much free will. I know that question can be debated ad infinitum but that is my reaction. I think that's part of why the book doesn't fit my typical definition of feminist. I think it's a book that has been shaped by the recent years of feminism--that is, I doubt it would have been written without the recent changes in our society. I think of feminism as being more hopeful somehow--with some hint that activism, that striving can change things. Yes, I know lots of very dark books have been labeled feminist and I accept those labels for dystopian books like Handmaid's Tale, Walk to the End of the World, etc. They seem to be protesting customs by their darkness. WICKED doesn't feel that way to me--the activism to help the Animals, to improve the economics, and environmental problems all come to nothing. I am enjoying the discussion and, yes, I'm another one who read all the OZ books multiple times. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.