From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thu Jul 12 20:28:14 2001 Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 07:40:07 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0012B" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:28:40 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Heather Stark Subject: Re: [*FSF-L] BDG Wicked MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting discussion. Two themes I'd like to pick up on: Tone, Determinism & Character Messages & The Lion the Witch & the Wardrobe I haven't read Wicked from cover to cover, instead I've started skipping around, kind of enjoying bits, a bit, but hoping to find something that really engages me and pulls me in and along. No joy. Wondering about WHY - I think I can puzzle an answer out of what people have already said. Margaret McBride: The book is also too deterministic in a way that doesn't add to my understanding of humans. The characters are either so shaped by their relationships with their parents and/or some conniving character/Fate that they seem to lose too much free will. Maryelizabeth Hart: Did anyone else find WICKED hard going because of the language/author's voice/whatever? I gave up not too far in because while I was interested in the concept, the writing wasn't holding my attention. I'm not sure whether it's the tone, or the determinism of the characters, or some combination of both, that I'm reacting to. (More like..not reacting to.... ;-). Revisionism can be a wonderful lens (e.g. Flush...). I'd be interested in any recommendations for re-tellings of fairy stories, that have a BDG slant. But here, I'm not sure what I'm seeing with it. Marie Shanahan (who liked the book anyway): I couldn't quite see the point of it- it didn't seem to be intended to be taken seriously, but wasn't funny- and one things for sure, it didn't enlighten this reader any as to the nature of evil. Marie's comparison with The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe is thought provoking for me.... With The Lion WW, I've gone through multiple phases, as I've read it every five years or so since I was 8. First time round I was oblivious to the Christian message - next time round it stuck out so I couldn't see the story! I didn't like it and thought 'ugh how *dare* he sneak that in and make me digest it when I was too young to know different...not FAIR'. Subsequent re-readings have got these elements more in balance - and I've come to appreciate the Christian message more than the first time I saw it. But what I really like about the book, when I'm in a phrase where I'm not narked by the emblems, etc, are the characters, and how they play out in plot, and how they relate to the themes of choice and redemption. With Wicked, I'm kind of interested in Elphaba, in a distant kind of way. But I don't turn the page thinking 'what next?', or 'oh, no! say it ain't so!'. I'm skipping around in another book right now, Viriconium, which I picked up in a SF Masterworks re-issue. For richness of language, and setting, I've seldom read anything to beat it. But the characters don't reach out to me. So, as with Wicked, I'm skipping around in it, thinking, hm, yeah, that's interesting. But I don't forget I'm reading. cheers, Heather ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:30:13 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: [*FSF-L] BDG Wicked - Tone, Determinism & Character MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Like many others I am currently half way through the book and finding it hard going. I wanted to come in on this thread because I think I know the answer. It's to do with the technical issue of the author's handling of viewpoint. For non-writers on the list, Point-of-View (POV) is something that writers get terribly excited about, and which readers only notice when they find that the story 'isn't working'. Even when writing in third person a writer is wisest to stick with one character per scene. Only the things that character sees are described. Only that character's thoughts are given as quotes. Jumping from character to character (known as head-hopping) is most often seen in the work of novice writers. I've read scenes where the POV changes with each paragraph. It is very bad practice and leaves the reader feeling like a tennis ball. However sometimes a writer needs to give more than one POV. For example if the plot contains a heated argument, and the writer wants to show both sides. One technique for this would be to give the argument from one of the antagonists POV, and then in the next section (with a line space to mark the switch) go to the second character a short while later and have them brooding over what they should have said. There is another option for the writer, and this is what Maguire has done, which is to go for the 'god's eye viewpoint'. The author, Nigel Watts, describes it: "A truly omniscient viewpoint hovers above the story, the reader listening to character's thoughts like a telepathic eavesdropper" He then goes on to say, "The disadvantage of a god's eye view is significant: the reader, like the narrator, can float above the scene, passing through walls like a ghost, never really getting involved. If your intention is to produce a cool, perhaps ironic tone, this distance may be in your favour. If you have an emotional tale to tell you may find the effect is the opposite of intense." Briefly. in the section 'Boq' we were allowed inside Boq's head, and I started to connect with the story. However the POV has drifted outwards again and I am left feeling that the characters are all at the other end of a very long barge-pole. If this is Elphaba's story then I would like it told from her POV. Jane ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:51:53 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: BDG: Wicked Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I just finished *Wicked* on my lunch break at work. I feel a little sick. I'm surprised that no one else has mentioned how *nasty* this book is! It seemed that every time I turned the page I came across another stomach-turning example of hypocrisy, blinkered prejudice, oppression. That is, when the more obvious lynchings, war crimes and torture weren't taking center stage. I know that's a bit of an exaggeration, but it captures my impression of the book -- a snapshot of life in a despotic and decadent society. I've never read any of the Oz books, but I can easily see why you hated it, Robin. As it is, I'm hovering on the line between queasy and outraged. It's not that I generally object to bad things happening in fiction. But the way that Maguire offhandedly tossed them in, heaping worse upon bad, then never resolved any of the outrage, made me feel as if there was no higher purpose beyond trying to shock. As an example -- why on earth include the scene in the Philosopher's Club? It is mentioned a couple of times later on in the book, but with never an explanation of why it might be significant. Elphaba wasn't even there. But I guess the trashing of Oz wouldn't have been complete without a little live porn thrown in to show just how degenerate these wretches really are. I do have more to say about this book, but I just had to get this off my chest first. Consider me unburdened. ;) ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Coldplay -- Parachutes "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 23:06:23 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Heather Stark Subject: Re: [*FSF-L] BDG Wicked - Tone, Determinism & Character MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: POV Interesting diagnosis... POV is a bit of a chicken and egg thingy: - what you feel, as a reader, in the way of empathy/suspense -various stylistic mechanisms for conveying POV - both direct and indirect. and it's also possible to feel a strong POV and yet not feel empathy/immersion. and all this is hard to unscramble... ;-) Heather ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:02:18 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Ursula K. Le Guin on ALL THINGS CONSIDERED this afternoon (12/13) Comments: To: fictionmags@egroups.com, TTALKBACK@egroups.com Comments: cc: SCIENCEFICTION-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU, TIMEBINDERS@SFLOVERS.RUTGERS.EDU, SF-LIT@sun8.loc.gov, Multiple recipients of list , Mary Green , Virginia Ely , Fred K Ollinger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" She will apparently be on briefly, maybe Very Briefly, being interviewed? by Alan Cheuse, NPR's professional softie as book reviewer (personally, one of the more irritable people I've ever met, fwthat'sw), in the course of his recommendation of gift books. Those without radio access may find live or archive files as www.NPR.org. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.