From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thu Jul 12 20:27:41 2001 Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 07:40:07 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0012C" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:30:27 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: one more on OZ (the original, sorta) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recommend OZ: THE HUNDREDTH ANNIVERSARY CELEBRATION to fans of the original. Essays and art by some of the best contemporary children's authors and artists. Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 14:59:39 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: BDG: Wicked Well, I've recovered from my initial reaction to *Wicked*. Though discussion seems to have died down, I thought I would take some time to respond more thoughtfully to the book. Despite my deep reservations, I didn't have any difficulty maintaining interest in it until the end. The prose was full of life and the imagery was at times very poetic. I will not forget the scene in which Elphaba was brought to the Princess Nastoya across the prairie, "a great flickering surface" of grass that she takes to be the origin of the "myth" of the ocean. I also enjoyed the depiction of student life at Shiz University. Though the students' dialogue was incredibly pretentious and their chumminess was a bit off-putting, this section still captured a sense of the exploration and change that I felt as a college undergraduate. I enjoyed Pamela Dean's *Tam Lin* for the same reason. The "Gillikin" section also gave me the impression that Maguire had been reading up on the Bloomsbury group, which famously sprang from the halls of Cambridge. The homosexuals Crope and Tibbett (from Three *Queens* college -- ha ha) and Elphaba's sister Nessarose, whom she dotes on, call to mind, respectively, the various "buggers" of the group and Virginia Woolf's sister, Vanessa (also nicknamed "Nessa"). Elphaba at times reminded me of Virginia Woolf -- attached to the world, but uncompromising in her evaluation of it. Woolf's great feminist work, *Three Guineas*, was disapproved of, not only by the world at large, but by her closest friends, just as Elphaba's opinions about Animal rights fall on largely deaf ears even amongst her "charmed circle." And, even as the Bloomsbury group loved to talk about the nature of Good and Beauty, so Elphaba's friends discuss the nature of Evil. Sadly, I found these discussions hopelessly abstract and frustrating. If part of Maguire's point was that such talk is reserved for the privileged and bored, and has nothing to do with righting wrongs, all I can say is, not necessarily. Of course, if we take the main characters of *Wicked* as our sample of humanity, morality is simply not an issue. Lyla Miklos commented, "I love how no one is really evil or good or right or wrong." On the contrary, by the end of the book, I felt as if I had seen the ten thousand faces of Evil and had been left with nothing Good. Just because Glinda, Boq, et. al. are not mustache-twirlers like Morrible or the Wizard doesn't mean that their cooperation with the police state is forgivable. There is an obvious parallel here between Oz and Nazi Germany. Even Elphaba, who went so far as to join a resistance cell, lost all ethical credibility for me when her self-absorption kept her from noticing that her son had been missing for *two days*. Regardless of maternal feelings, she was in some way responsible for this child, and her neglect nearly meant his death. Killing Manek afterward hardly made up for it. This sense of pervasive badness, with no workable alternatives offered, was my major problem with the book. Joyce Jones wrote, "I liked the fact that Elphaba seemed to think of herself as unlovable and didn't care about that but that she was able to share love with Fiyero." I think this section of the book was where the "point of view" problem that Jane Fletcher pointed out really began to impinge on me. On the one hand, I appreciated that we got an extended experience of one, fairly sympathetic, person's life. I remember particularly the moment when Fiyero sees the Bear cub smashed on the head in the yard next door and seems to realize for the first time the enormity of the horror in Oz. Though he never gets the chance to involve himself in a resistance movement the way Elphaba does, and perhaps would never choose to, at least he seems to have grown in the course of this section. What I didn't like about it is that we never get to see the relationship from Elphaba's side. This is the center of the book, both physically and emotionally. Its events are shattering enough to make Elphaba seclude herself for *seven years*, and she only comes out of seclusion to travel across Oz and apologize to Fiyero's wife. Since it is so important, I very much wanted to see the events from Elphaba's side, to understand how much Fiyero meant to her, to feel with her. But it never happens. Even in the "Vinkus" and "Murder" sections of the book, which give us Elphaba's viewpoint at last, there are no flashbacks, no real investigation of what makes this woman tick. If she really thought of herself as unlovable, for example, I'm sure she would have experienced some powerfully confused feelings about Fiyero's attraction to her. But all we see is her masochistic and self-involved focus on confessing to Sarima and her later disintegration into what seems to me like madness. How else to explain her mission to sew wings onto monkeys? Well, I guess another obvious explanation is that Maguire wanted to tie her story into the events of *The Wonderful Wizard of Oz* and he was running out of time. In either case, I thought it made no sense in light of Elphaba's previous concern for both Animals and animals. The point of view problem prevents me from viewing the book as feminist. Elphaba is the object of this story, not its subject. It is not enough to give an alternate view of the Wicked Witch of the West if she *still* comes across as a cypher, an "other". Which is how she seemed to me. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 18:03:23 +0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Angela Barclay Subject: reading response survey Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3059834606_1725563_MIME_Part" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3059834606_1725563_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Happy holiday season, everyone: I have been a longtime fan of fantasy and science fiction (particularly the work of Angela Carter, Guy Gavriel Kay, Tanith Lee and Sherri S. Tepper) an= d a member of this mailing list since last October. Since then I have enjoye= d being introduced to new authors and ideas and to the rich and diverse discussion of this group. I have chosen to study the listserve for my Masters in Communications (MCS) final project, which is much like a Thesis. I am interested in how the opportunities created by the mailing list affect the reading, writing and publication/marketing of feminist fantasy and science fiction. Members who have been around since April may recall that I already introduced conducted a mini-survey. Thank-you very much to those who replied. Your detailed and personable responses are greatly appreciated, and will be used in my final analysis. (Feel free to also answer the expanded survey below.) I am reintroducing myself and my project because I=B9d like to add some questions to my initial survey and because membership of an electronic mailing list is never static. If you have some time I=B9d appreciate your responses to any or all of the questions listed below. Just insert your answer after the applicable questions. **Please email the entire survey back to me, by January 19, at barclaya@telusplanet.net and not to the listserve.** A. The List 1. How did you find out about this mailing list? 2. Why did you join this mailing list? 3. How long have you been a member of this mailing list? 4. Did you experience any difficulties joining this list? 5. How do you benefit personally and/or professionally from being a member of this list? 6. What do you most enjoy about being a member of this list? 7. What elements of list membership or discussion do you least enjoy? 8. To what extent do you participate in online discussion? Explain, if possible, your level of participation. 9. Do you participate in the book nomination and/or voting processes? If yes, which processes and why? If no, why not? 10. Are you or have you been a member of other mailing lists and if so how have they differed from this list in terms of purpose, function and dynamics? 11. What elements of this list make it female-friendly? Are there element= s that are =B3unfriendly=B2? 12. Do you participate in off-line discussion with other list members? Ho= w frequently? For what purpose? 13. Has joining the listserve led to any positive personal or professional contacts or experiences? 14. Do you think our discussions have political or social or other impacts that extend beyond our =B3community=B2? If so, what are they and how do they occur? B. The Literature 1. Reading Preferences: a. What about feminist fantasy and science fiction is particularly appealing or meaningful to you? b. Has joining the listserve altered what literature, aspects of literatur= e or authors you find appealing or meaningful? Please explain. c. Has participating in or observing listserve discussion altered how you make meaning or sense of what you read? If so, how? 2. Reading Practices: a. Approximately how many works of fiction do you read for pleasure each month? b. What approximate percentage of the works of fiction you read are feminist science fiction, fantasy or utopian/dystopian? c. What other types of fiction do you read? d. Before you joined the listserve did you discuss the feminist science fiction you read with others? With whom? How frequently? e. In addition to following listserve discussion, do you currently discuss what you read with others not on the list? With whom? How frequently? f. Where do you acquire most of the novels you read? g. Has joining the listserve altered your reading practices in any way I have failed to mention? C. You, the Reader a. If you don=B9t find this an invasion of privacy, briefly describe yourself. The reason I ask for a some personal information is so that I might be able to =B3take a snapshot=B2 of our community at this time. Aside from being a group of feminist science fiction aficionados, who are we? (For example, I am a 37 year old woman who hopes to move beyond the stresse= s of teaching in the public school system by completing my Masters degree- hence this survey. My dream is ultimately to teach science fiction, communication and cultural studies at the university level. When I am not working or studying I can be found curled up with a couple of cats and a book, or hacking hopelessly about on the golf course.) I appreciate your participation very much, Angela Barclay University of Calgary Calgary, Alberta, Canada --MS_Mac_OE_3059834606_1725563_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable reading response survey Happy holiday season, everyone:  

I have been a longtime fan of fantasy and science fiction (particularly the= work of Angela Carter, Guy Gavriel Kay, Tanith Lee and Sherri S. Tepper) an= d a member of this mailing list since last October.  Since then I have = enjoyed being introduced to new authors and ideas and to the rich and divers= e discussion of this group.

I have chosen to study the listserve for my Masters in Communications (MCS)= final project, which is much like a Thesis.  I am interested in how th= e opportunities created by the mailing list affect the reading, writing and = publication/marketing of feminist fantasy and science fiction.

Members who have been around since April may recall that I already introduc= ed conducted a mini-survey.  Thank-you very much to those who replied. =  Your detailed and personable responses are greatly appreciated, and wi= ll be used in my final analysis.  (Feel free to also answer the expande= d survey below.)

I am reintroducing myself and my project because I=B9d like to add some quest= ions to my initial survey and because membership of an electronic mailing li= st is never static.  If you have some time I=B9d appreciate your response= s to any or all of the questions listed below.  Just insert your answer= after the applicable questions.  **Please email the entire survey back= to me, by January 19, at barclaya@telusplanet.net and not to the listserve.= **
    
A.  The List
1.  How did you find out about this mailing list?
2.  Why did you join this mailing list?
3.  How long have you been a member of this mailing list?
4.  Did you experience any difficulties joining this list?
5.  How do you benefit personally and/or professionally from being a m= ember of this list?
6.  What do you most enjoy about being a member of this list?
7.  What elements of list membership or discussion do you least enjoy?=
8.  To what extent do you participate in online discussion?  Expl= ain, if possible, your level of participation.
9. Do you participate in the book nomination and/or voting processes?  = ;If yes, which processes and why?  If no, why not?
10.  Are you or have you been a member of other mailing lists and if s= o how have they differed from this list in terms of purpose, function and dy= namics?
11.  What elements of this list make it female-friendly?  Are the= re elements that are =B3unfriendly=B2?
12.  Do you participate in off-line discussion with other list members= ?  How frequently?  For what purpose?
13.  Has joining the listserve led to any positive personal or profess= ional contacts or experiences?

14.  Do you think our discussions have political or social or other im= pacts that extend beyond our =B3community=B2?  If so, what are they and how= do they occur?

B.  The Literature
1.  Reading Preferences:
a.  What about feminist fantasy and science fiction is particularly ap= pealing or meaningful to you?
b.  Has joining the listserve altered what literature, aspects of lite= rature or authors you find appealing or meaningful?  Please explain. c.  Has participating in or observing listserve discussion altered how= you make meaning or sense of what you read?  If so, how?  
 
2.  Reading Practices:
a.  Approximately how many works of fiction do you read for pleasure e= ach month?   
b.  What approximate percentage of the works of fiction you read are f= eminist science fiction, fantasy or utopian/dystopian?
c.  What other types of fiction do you read?
d.  Before you joined the listserve did you discuss the feminist scien= ce fiction you read with others?  With whom?  How frequently?
e.  In addition to following listserve discussion, do you currently di= scuss what you read with others not on the list?  With whom?  How = frequently?
f.  Where do you acquire most of the novels you read?  
g.  Has joining the listserve altered your reading practices in any wa= y I have failed to mention?  

C.  You, the Reader
a.  If you don=B9t find this an invasion of privacy, briefly describ= e yourself.  The reason I ask for a some personal information is so tha= t I might be able to =B3take a snapshot=B2 of our community at this time.  = Aside from being a group of feminist science fiction aficionados, who are we= ?  (For example, I am a 37 year old woman who hopes to move beyond the = stresses of teaching in the public school system by completing my Masters de= gree- hence this survey.  My dream is ultimately to teach science ficti= on, communication and cultural studies at the university level.  When I= am not working or studying I can be found curled up with a couple of cats a= nd a book, or hacking hopelessly about on the golf course.)

I appreciate your participation very much,
Angela Barclay
University of Calgary
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
  


--MS_Mac_OE_3059834606_1725563_MIME_Part-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 06:30:29 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: BDG: Wicked MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Despite my deep reservations, I didn't have any > How else to explain her mission to sew wings onto > monkeys? Well, I guess another obvious explanation > is that Maguire wanted to tie her story into the > events of *The Wonderful Wizard of Oz* and he was > running out of time. In either case, I thought it > made no sense in light of Elphaba's previous concern > for both Animals and animals. I too felt the ending was rushed and didn't fit with the tone and pace of the rest of the book. Elphaba's obsessive need to get her sister's shoes back and the wing thing were all misplaced and out of character from what we had seen before. Now about Elphaba's "son". I never truly believed he was actually her "son". People had commented on someone giving birth and not knowing about it to be highly improbable. I felt he was someone she had projected a lot of stuff on to, but never did I think he was really her kid. Although I've never been a mother, I have been a babysitter and I was the oldest of four kids. When kids go missing you look for them right away. I remember going into an absolute panic when I couldn't find my baby brother in downtown Toronto one summer and that was only for a couple of minutes. You don't wait for days. I guess Elphaba wasn't going to win the mother of the year award. Although it does sound horrible there are people like that around. To be polite, lets call them self-absorbed. The people in Wicked reminded me of people I meet everyday. There are very few people I know who are truly heroes that rise above it all and go against the grain. Most people plod along and follow the norm. There is a reason the Nazis rose to power and most of Germany barely raised an eyebrow at what was going on. Let alone object or rise up against them. Unfortunately I think that reason mostly stems from human nature. Lyla __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:54:55 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: BDG: Wicked In-Reply-To: <20001218143029.12806.qmail@web1201.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:30 AM 12/18/00 -0800, Lyla Miklos wrote: >Now about Elphaba's "son". I never truly believed he >was actually her "son". People had commented on >someone giving birth and not knowing about it to be >highly improbable. I felt he was someone she had >projected a lot of stuff on to, but never did I think >he was really her kid. Huh... I didn't see any indications that Elphaba wasn't Liir's mother. If she were obsessed with him as a "possible" child of her beloved Fiyero or some such thing I might begin to suspect the same plot twist, but she's completely indifferent to the kid, at least until his brush with death. At that point she becomes slightly more interested, but not enough to make much of an impression. Am I missing something? >The people in Wicked reminded me of people I meet >everyday. There are very few people I know who are >truly heroes that rise above it all and go against the >grain. Most people plod along and follow the norm. >There is a reason the Nazis rose to power and most of >Germany barely raised an eyebrow at what was going on. >Let alone object or rise up against them. >Unfortunately I think that reason mostly stems from >human nature. Oz as dystopia could have been very effective, but where it faltered for me was in the lack of 1) a victim's viewpoint and 2) a credible resistance. None of the (very few) Animal characters get their own point of view section; neither do the Quadlings. It makes the atrocities committed against them feel very distant, almost like a backdrop. Now, it's my feeling that if an author makes so clear an analogy to the Holocaust, he ought to deal with it face on. And Maguire didn't. Elphaba's involvement with the resistance seems, once again, like backdrop material, since we never learn anything about the other people involved, and they are so ineffective as to seem almost a joke. Even the oppressed Cow in the "Vinkus" section responds with weary irony to Elphaba's crusading attitude. The overall feeling I get from the book is that Horrible Things Happen and There's Nothing You Can Do About It. To echo Joyce Jones's comments about *Ash*: what is the point of such a book? ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Coldplay -- Parachutes "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:50:13 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Oz (Was Wicked) In-Reply-To: <3A304605.66DA49C6@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Marcie wrote: >I've seen these editions - lovely, really - but the ones I read growing >up were reissues from Ballantine in softcover; they released one every >few months and I used to check the book racks at Towers (think Stedmans, >Woolco, Target, for those who weren't blessed with a Towers store >downtown ;)) religiously, every Saturday, waiting for the next one to >arrive. > >Looking back, I've no idea why I didn't just borrow them from the >library but I guess it was more magical to be allowed to spend $2 for my >own copy and read and re-read ad nauseum. Or, as Robin said, to memorize >my favourite scenes and act them out. Judging by the shape of them now, >it seems my favourites were The Emerald City of Oz and Ozma of Oz. Of >course my copy of Wicked looks worse than either of these, having picked >it up second-hand, so perhaps that's not the best criterion. Wow, do you remember what year this was? I know I started reading them in the library editions in 1960 or 61, but it was almost impossible to find them in the bookstores; they were out of print a while. I seem to remember being told and cannot vouch for the authority that librarians and educators did not like them much and they were suspected of being communist during the witch-hunt fifties and dropped from publication. So for some years they weren't available. I wish they'd do new hard back editions! I have filled out my collection with various soft cover, and they have the illos, but it's not the same. I also don't limit myself just to the 14 published by Baum; I also like Ruth Plumley THompson's as welL! I have over 30......so many people think it's just the ONE novel. Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:35:41 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG: Wicked Janice Dawley wrote: "The overall feeling I get from the book is that Horrible Things Happen and There's Nothing You Can Do About It." I do think that's the overwhelming feeling, so why did I like it so much when I didn't like Dawn, by Octavia Butler or Ash? My objections to them were the same, or almost the same. I can't really talk about Ash because it so disgusted me that I could read very little of it. I remember my objection to Dawn was that the main female character was so gifted and interesting yet she stayed subjugated by the "creator" figure in the story. The message seemed to be that she could continue to care for him and work for him in spite of his uncontrollable need to kill. I am not a "love your enemies" kind of person. No, I will not embrace the presidency of George Bush because he's a "likeable" guy and has been handed the election. I don't care if he's all we've got, to me he is not the president. So, I guess the reason I can still like Wicked and still respect Elphaba is that she continued to fight even though we know, and she surmised, that she can't win. Yes, this hopeless fight drove her a little crazy, thus the flying monkeys perhaps, but she continued to fight. Now, I can't get all misty eyed and patriotic when men rush to certain death trying to take another hill in another battle. To me that's just mindless lemurism. Elphaba wasn't trying to take a meaningless hill. She was fighting alone, after becoming lost from her cohorts, for freedom. If she were a French resistance fighter we'd applaud her. Germany eventually lost the war, but that outcome certainly wasn't certain to many of the people who lost their lives fighting them. Winning doesn't make you a hero, fighting does. We never see inside Elphaba. We don't feel her pain and we don't feel her love. She says she doesn't have a soul, maybe that's why we're not allowed in. Does that point of view bother me? Again I have to say, not in this book. Ghandi espoused the love of all humanity, yet he didn't seem to involve himself in the little loves that are so important to most of us. Ralph Nadar is a man fighting for all of humanity, yet there seems to be little personal depth to him. You've heard the old joke life is too important to become personally involved? Well, I think some people live it. Elphaba didn't look for the boy who was probably her son for two days. You might call that self absorption or you may call that relating to a larger view of life. I see it as something an actual person might do -- not a run of the mill person, but a believable person nevertheless. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 04:47:36 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Dawn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Joyce Jones wrote: >I remember my >objection to Dawn was that the main female character was so gifted and >interesting yet she stayed subjugated by the "creator" figure in the story. >The message seemed to be that she could continue to care for him and work >for him in spite of his uncontrollable need to kill. I am not a "love your >enemies" kind of person. I have to admit it's a fair while since I read _Xenogenesis_, but frankly, this sounds nothing like my recollection of the story. Except for Lilith being a fascinating character, of course. Who is the "creator" figure? Are we talking about the Ooloi character? If so, what uncontrollable need to kill? Genetic assimilation is not the same as extermination, except on a species wide basis. For me, the tension between these two perspectives was kind of the point of the whole thing. Butler can protest she isn't talking about slavery all she likes - the parallels between aliens who kidnap you and breed out the purity of your race/species are just too strong to ignore. I think _Dawn_ is a fascinating exploration of how individual people cope in such a situation, not a "love your enemies" parable. I mean, its not like she was ever given an alternative. And once she has a child, whom she loves, and who is also part alien, how can she even wish for an alternative without denying her own child's life? No, I will not embrace the presidency of George >Bush because he's a "likeable" guy and has been handed the election. I >don't care if he's all we've got, to me he is not the president. Looks like we need to send in the UN to ensure democratic elections in the United States. Kate. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:37:43 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: January Book Selection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Discussion Groupies; Should you choose to accept it, your literary mission for January will be; Nights at the Circus, by Angela Carter. Discussion will be officially started by the nominator on (or about) the first Monday of January. Enjoy! Mellen For the BDG Volunteers Upcoming Books- Feb. 5, 2001 The Conqueror's Child, by Suzy Mc Kee Charnas Note: The next round of selection will be in December 2000/January 2001 *************************************************************************** The BDG provides a forum for focusing discussion on a particular book during a one month period. The books discussed are nominated and chosen in advance by a vote of all members of the FSFFU-L list serve who choose to vote. Start thinking about your nominations now. To quote our list-mistress, "This does not prohibit discussion of the BDG books at other times; nor does it prohibit discussion of non-BDG books." If you have any other questions about the Book Discussion Group (BDG), it's selections, previous discussions or the Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy and Utopias Literature List Serve (FSFFU-L), you can start with the BDG website at; http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/, or the FSFFU-L website at; http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/fsflit/. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:02:29 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: Dawn - Wild Seed I'm sorry, I didn't mean Dawn. I loved the Xenogenesis series. I meant to refer to Wild Seed and the dominant - submissive relationship between Doro and Anyanwu. We discussed the fact that Butler was saying that compromises have to be made for some people to be able to survive. While that is an understandable, and realistic, view, I thought the way it was represented in Wild Seed with Anyanwu being so fascinating yet willingly connected to a being who bred her people like cattle and killed them at will was off-putting to say the least. I found Wild Seed overwhelmingly depressing, but I felt uplifted by Elphaba's struggle in Wicked. Anyanwu lives, Elphaba dies. So it would seem that Anyanwu makes the right choice -- better to fight the system from within. Perhaps it's the romantic in me who can't accept that choice. I honor those who sacrifice, remain true to their ideals and fight overtly, even if they loose. Perhaps the individual sacrifice is more effective in establishing the ideal than the one who allows herself to be used by the system. Perhaps not. Who had the greatest role in ending the Vietnam war, the nuns who immolated themselves or the Young Republicans and Democrats who did everything they could think of to save face politically while devising a way to pull out? Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 05:26:46 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: Dawn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think perhaps Joyce was referring to a different book, not Dawn, when she talked about the creator figure, and his need to kill. I have read Xenogenesis and Kindred, and her comments appear unrelated to those books. Perhaps she intended comparison to another of Butler's books? Does anyone recognise which book it is? ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 05:27:11 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: Dawn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whoops- sorry, that was from Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 06:34:07 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Dawn - Wild Seed, and further comment on Wicked MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi again, thanks Joyce, for clearing that up. I was intrigued as to which book you actually were referring to! As I read the further comments on Wicked, it spurs me on to develop my own opinion of the book further. People have commented on it seeming rushed at the end, or that some e events ie Elphaba's operations on the monkeys, and losing her son etc are not in keeping with her character earlier in the book. To me, this was in keeping with the message of the book. Which to my mind, was to examine the motivation of a figure whose actions are clearly evil. I suppose it is a measure of Maguire's success, that the things we would have seen to be clearly evil in a book such as the original Oz book, ie sending her animals to kill Dorothy, sewing the wings on to the monkeys; we are able to some degree to excuse her in Wicked. I sort of think that Maguire put those bits in, ie Elphaba's operations on the monkeys, so that we would have to realise by the end of the book, that her actions were finally evil- just as her public persona is ie 'The Wicked Witch of the West'. He wasn't trying to show that Elphaba was not really bad, just misunderstood, he was trying to ask- if someone starts of good, but has terrible things happen to them, and finally, with the best of intentions, commits evil acts, are they themselves evil? I felt that the tone of the book, like the 'finishing too quickly' people spoke of et , conveyed the way Elphaba was basically sinking into madness- or bitter and twistedness! She would have felt responsible for her lover's death, and then, when she finally travelled to his wife's to ease her burden of guilt, the wife wouldn't let her confess, and instead gave her a safe haven. However, then, Elphaba's presence in the home attracted the military, so she was responsible for their deaths also. After the encounter with Madame Morrible, in which she told the three girls about her plans to place them in powerful positions etc Elphaba struggled to ensure she was not under Madame Morrible's influence- ie she ran away to the Animal activist underground etc . However, although this and everything else she did was intended to thwart Madame e Morrible, what Madame Morrible had planned did become reality- and in fact- Elphaba's resistance had HELPED Morrible's manoeuvring's ie by Nessarose becoming a religious fanatic after Elphaba left, Glinda regressing into social climber. (By the way- someone said that they didn't believe that the boy (can't remember his name) was Elphaba's son. IN fact, Maguire confirms that he is Elphaba's son- he comments somewhere on him being in the house of his father, and on the other children being his siblings) Anyway, my point is, for someone so idealistic and well- meaning, Elphaba has a lot that she can , albeit indirectly, feel responsible for. After all- the road to hell, is lined with good intentions. So after collapsing after her lovers death, she finally makes the big effort to seek out his wife- The instead of anger etc she is given a home, but is then not only partly responsible for the wife \, her sisters and children's sticky ends- she ends up with their home! Everything she attempts, with the best intentions, turns sour- and it is here that she begins to decline into madness - and badness. (In regards to the side plot of Yackle etc- Yackle was one of the maunts at the convent where Elphaba stayed for the years after her lover's death. Also, Elphaba found that amazing book from the other world at the wife's house (sorry I've forgotten all the names) Is there a suggestion that Yackle steered Elphaba towards seeking out eh wife?) So, is Elphaba evil? Objectively, her actions at the end of the book are clearly pretty bad. Her neglect of her child. Her vivisection and abuse of the monkeys and birds. Her obsession with Dorothy, attempts to kill her as Dorothy arrives, and careless throwing away of her animals lives in pursuit of Dorothy's death. But when you've been there from the start, through her childhood as a lonely green child with difficult parents, the blossoming at college, the idealism, the horror at the oppression and prejudice she sees about her, the crushing loss of her only real love- I suppose it is hard to condemn. But... does that mean you wouldn't condemn Hitler if he was your brother- or son? Is it fair to Elphaba's son to excuse her appalling neglect of him? Anyway- thanks very much to anyone who managed to read through all this- its wonderful how this group makes you think further about your reading Maire (late at night!) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:18:39 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: The Is it feminist Question? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been thinking a fair bit (as you do) in the last few days about how much the issue of whether a book is feminist or not, or whether it is feminist enough, etc is discussed. The thing is, people seem to mostly decide that whichever book it is they are discussing, it is not, in fact, feminist. But, surely, the very fact that it is being discussed at this listserve , or with the BDG on the reading list, mean s it must have some feminist element! I guess it just seem ironic that, at a feminist listserv, people seem so reluctant to declare a book feminist. It's one thing when I'm trying to get my Dad to read a book, and I know he will skip it if he thinks it's 'feminist' so I say, no it's not feminist. So you'd think things would be different a t a feminist listserve, where people actually WANT to read feminist books, and actively seek them out! Anyway, my humble conclusion is that, at least in the context of a feminist sf website, readers apply very strenuous standards when categorising books as feminist or not. I think, often when a reader says- a good book- but feminist? No. etc they actually mean that it is not PERFECTLY feminist. I guess because we are critiquing feminist books on feminist listserve, and feminism is one of the qualities sought for o a book, we are hyper critical when deciding if it is there or not. But the thing is- if all these books that we conclude to be insufficiently feminist were altered so as to be satisfactorily feminist ie the Sparrow the Children Star, wouldn't it become a little boring? I don't know, I'm just wondering- and I'm not suggesting that anyone else was suggesting the books be altered, either! What is a book that the consensus is that it is feminist? Walk to the End of the World? Or maybe everyone would think a book feminist if it was one of those books that either opens your eyes to the inequality in the world- or if you are already feminist- it 'restokes your fires'? But I think I really like books where (from the Tiptree judges comment on the Children Star' gender is not explored, but resolved- Another thing that strikes me , is that although many readers complain of not liking a book on the BDG list, I have liked them all. Because I think that, for me, just that a fact a book is feminist is enough for me to like it ! I have read so many, many books- and when I read one that it is feminist, it is like a blast of refreshing water. And in this context, what I mean by feminist- is actually just 'not sexist'! Maire- (probably spouting mindless drivel but too tired to tell the difference) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:41:43 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: BDG: Wicked On 19 Dec 2000 at 18:35:41 -0800, Joyce Jones wrote: >So, I guess the reason I can still like Wicked and still respect Elphaba is >that she continued to fight even though we know, and she surmised, that she >can't win. Yes, this hopeless fight drove her a little crazy, thus the >flying monkeys perhaps, but she continued to fight. Now, I can't get all >misty eyed and patriotic when men rush to certain death trying to take >another hill in another battle. To me that's just mindless lemurism. >Elphaba wasn't trying to take a meaningless hill. She was fighting alone, >after becoming lost from her cohorts, for freedom. If she were a French >resistance fighter we'd applaud her. Germany eventually lost the war, but >that outcome certainly wasn't certain to many of the people who lost their >lives fighting them. Winning doesn't make you a hero, fighting does. I agree to some extent, but I'm not sure I understand the distinction you are making. Leaving Gallipoli aside, I think that military commanders most often have a good reason to "take another hill" that relates to winning the overall war. And though I don't think it's often true, the soldiers who follow their orders often believe that the war is being fought on moral grounds. How is this any different from Elphaba's involvement with the Animal rights cause? I'm not saying that the masterminds of that cause *weren't* acting on moral grounds, but the fact is that Elphaba had very little knowledge of what the other "cells" were doing or how her actions might relate to the overall plan. That sort of structure, it seems to me, invites the making of terrible mistakes, and I can't really view Elphaba's involvement with it as a positive thing, no matter how much I agree with her motives. Now, if she had been part of an Animal "underground railroad" or some other resistance activity that attempted to directly improve the lives of even a few Animals, I might feel differently. But she wasn't, at least as far as I remember. She does rescue Chistery, but the later wing experiments make that act a mockery. In short, I found it very hard to identify with or care about Elphaba, realistic or not. But I'm glad that you were able to get something out of the book that I couldn't, and do enjoy discussing it! ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:18:38 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Octavia Butler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Joyce Jones wrote: >I'm sorry, I didn't mean Dawn. I loved the Xenogenesis series. I >meant >to refer to Wild Seed and the dominant - submissive relationship >between >Doro and Anyanwu. Fair enough. I should have realised you were talking about something else. I haven't read Wild Seed, so I can't comment on the relationships in it, although I have been rather disappointed by that particular series, if that's what it is. I've only read _Clay's Ark_, which read like a practice run for Xenogenesis, and _Patternmaster_, which was merely competent. Am I right in guessing that _Wild Seed_ and _Mind of My Mind_ are set in the same universe, somewhere between the two in time? I read _Patternmaster_ last week, and although it was reasonably entertaining, I was disappointed at its rather conventional nature. I suppose it's a bit much to expect any writer to blow your mind with every book, but Butler had lived up to that in the past (Xenogenesis, Kindred, Parables of the Sower and the Talents). >Perhaps the individual sacrifice is more effective in establishing the > >ideal than the one who allows herself to be used by the system. >Perhaps >not. Who had the greatest role in ending the Vietnam war, the >nuns who >immolated themselves or the Young Republicans and Democrats >who did >everything they could think of to save face politically while >devising a >way to pull out? On this topic, I'd be interested in people's opinions of Lauren Olamina's character development between _Parable of the Sower_ and _Parable of the Talents_. Does she sacrifice her 'purity' of character to establish her goal of interstellar colonisation? And does this affect the nature of the achieved goal itself? Kate. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:03:37 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Le Comte Subject: Re: Octavia Butler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ============================================================ From: Kate Dall Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:18:38 -0000 >I've only read _Clay's Ark_, which read like a >practice run for Xenogenesis, and >_Patternmaster_, which was merely competent. Am I >right in guessing that _Wild Seed_ and _Mind of >My Mind_ are set in the same >universe, somewhere between the two in time? I don't believe so,but then I have never read _Patternmaster_, and I believe that _Clay's Ark_ was a prequel written some time after _Patternmaster_. I always thought they were 2 different sets of 2-book series. >On this topic, I'd be interested in people's >opinions of Lauren Olamina's >character development between _Parable of the >Sower_ and _Parable of the >Talents_. Does she sacrifice her 'purity' of >character to establish her goal >of interstellar colonisation? And does this >affect the nature of the >achieved goal itself? I just finished re-reading these two books, but I'm not sure what you mean by Lauren's 'purity' of character? Or how it is "sacrificed"? What stood out for me, is Lauren becomes much stronger, and far more dedicated & determined to achieve the Earthseed goals, after the loss of her husband, daughter and community. If anything, she became more 'pure' in the second book, and was able to see the first ships depart before her own death - something she believed in her youth, would not happen in her own lifetime. I did find interesting, if somewhat puzzling, the reactions of the narrator, ie. Lauren's daughter, in the Talents - she seemed to have little desire to know her mother after the first awkward meetings, but then scatters throughout the book all this angst, anger etc, that apparently arose after her mother's death when she pores through her mother's journals. Yet she shrugs off her uncle's role in cruelly keeping them apart. Julieanne This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:09:38 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: What I just saw: Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon Movie Review Comments: To: amazons@egroups.com Comments: cc: bayley@egroups.com, disenchantment@egroups.com, fantasy@egroups.com, fantasybookclub@onelist.com, FantasyDiscussion@egroups.com, Fantasy_Books@egroups.com, fsf-list@egroups.com, Paradys@egroups.com, sffbooks@egroups.com, WomensFantasySciFi@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hope this review also posted at scifidimensions.com will be of interest to this group. Thanks for letting me share. Solstice Greetings, Amy aharlib@worldnet.att.net Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, (SONY Pictures Classics Release, 2000), Director Ang Lee, PG-13, 119 mins., in Mandarin, Eng. subtitles. Taiwanese-born director Ang Lee, a well-known award-winner for his arty dramas with contemporary Taiwanese, American or European recent-past settings has finally returned to his roots in an homage to the beloved genre films of his boyhood---the Wu Xia Pian or martial arts, knight errant, fantasy adventure. The power and significance of family, a favorite theme of Ang Lee's, as explored in 'Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon', gives depth and emotional power to this dazzlingly beautiful martial arts fantasy adventure set in Manchu period China (early 19th Century). Based on a Wu Xia novel (a hugely popular genre in Chinese written fiction too), the plot focuses on the retiring Wudan martial arts adept Li Mu Bai (Chow Yun Fat, charismatic Hong Kong star in his first period movie), giving up his heirloom, magical sword of uncanny swiftness and sharpness, known as the Green Destiny, in order to devote the remainder of his life to meditation after failing to save his late master from the evil skills of the criminal villainess Jade Fox (Cheng Pei Pei, a famous martial arts star in her own right, now an 'elder stateswoman'). Li is called back into the fray when Jen, (young and nubile Zhang Zi Yi), an aristocratic young woman who longs to escape the confines of an impending marriage by becoming a freelance swordfighter, steals, (with the help of her teacher, none other than Jade Fox), the Green Destiny sword. To get his valued blade back, Li calls upon his comrade, another veteran warrior (with whom he is secretly in love), Yu Shu Lien, (Michelle Yeoh, the premiere female fighting star in Asia). The pair of pugilists spend the rest of the movie seeking to confront Jade Fox and set the talented but misguided Jen on the path of righteousness. An important subplot involves a doomed romance between Jen and a desert outlaw Lo, the Dark Cloud, (handsome Chang Chen), told in a lengthy, lyrical and feisty flashback to emphasize Jen's dilemma---being torn between her longing for Lo and her feminist yearning for freedom. 'Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon', the title referring to the heroic potential inside us all waiting for the right reason to appear, represents a heroic effort and success on every artistic front. Capturing the audience's interest is a stirring plot loaded with romance, passion, significant sacrifice and refreshing moments of genuine humor showing director Lee's expertise in narrative pacing and film-making form. The acting by all the leading performers is excellent as are their beautiful, balletic, graceful martial art skills with enough real, complex movement amidst the spectacular superheroic flying SPFX to please everyone, with aerial stunts of unprecedented verisimilitude on top of roofs and in the treetops. This glorious action is the work of no less than one of the top martial art choreographers with a huge, prestigious track record in Hong Kong, Yuen Wo Ping (a fine director in his own right), known in the West for his work in 'The Matrix'. The latest CGI technology is also put to good use---digitally removing the wires that made possible the flying sequences, thus making them unusually believable for they could then be shot from all angles and CGI rendered an awesome, realistic panoramic aerial establishing shot of Beijing in all its 19th Century glory. This movie has it all: a moving and universal theme; well drawn, well-acted characters, especially the inspiring amazon-like women warriors; beautiful sets and scenic Mainland China locations; gorgeous costumes; rich atmospheric moodiness and magnificent cinematography; breathtaking martial arts sequences; a surprising ending of great emotional power; and an exquisite score by symphony percussionist Tan Dun with cello solos by Yo Yo Ma. 'Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon', thanks to Ang Lee's proven track record in his previous Euroamerican oriented films, is being given history-making, never before in the annals of Hollywood cinema, wide distribution release---unheard of for a movie with English subtitles, with an all-Asian cast set in a non-Western, historical/cultural milieu. Of course, this cinematic offering's awesomely thrilling entertainment value and artistic excellence also made this possible for Ang Lee has herein elevated the Wu Xia genre picture to heights of production values never before seen. Let's hope the success of this film in the West will pave the way for lots more like it to be widely accepted here. Rating: 10+ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:56:24 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Peter Jaric Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF-LIT Digest - 19 Dec 2000 to 20 Dec 2000 (#2000-77) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:03:37 -0600 > From: Julieanne Le Comte > Subject: Re: Octavia Butler > I don't believe so,but then I have never read _Patternmaster_, and I believe that > _Clay's Ark_ was a prequel written some time after _Patternmaster_. I always > thought they were 2 different sets of 2-book series. As I understand it, this is the order of the books, by the story: Wild Seed (1980) Mind of my Mind (1977) Clay's Ark (1984) Patternmaster (1976) /Peter Jaric ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.