From LISTSERV@listserv.uic.edu Fri Aug 25 10:30:41 2000 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:28:55 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0002B" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:08:22 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Ines Lassnig Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF-LIT Digest - 6 Feb 2000 to 7 Feb 2000 (#2000-22) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Lyla wrote: >One attitude that was very prevelant from the humans >was a "Who do these aliens think they are? How dare >they?" stance that really irked me. I kind of felt >that these humans had no right to complain. Here are >these aliens giving you a second chance after you >completely destroyed your own planet. Who do you guys >think YOU are? > >Even in the sequel to DAWN the resistance movement and >all that jazz. It really bothered me. Perhaps working >with them would be best since you would be DEAD >otherwise!?! To my mind, this is a question Butler frequently raises in her novels: Whether to co-operate with alien forces or cling uncompromisingly to one's humanity/dignity. The question in itself is justified in a feminist context more than in any other, as I see it. What I've found so irritating about how Butler finally resolves this is that she offers not models for co-operation, where both parties contribute equally as far as this is possible, but models for collaboration at times. Some of you might recall Anyanwu's succumbing to Doro, and of course Lilith is doing nothing else. She collaborates with oppressive (even raping) forces. And what for? To preserve the lives of humans and their half-human children. But what's the price? She ultimately sacrifices herself and many others and humanity. And why is it always women having to make the self-sacrifice at all? Is Butler saying that compromising and partially giving up one's ideals (also speaking for a feminist objective) is ok? I am reminded of Joanna Russ' fervent pladoyer for uncompromising attitudes in What Are We Fighting For, and I must say I'd rather agree with Russ than with Butler in this. Because if one is to regard feminist SF as didactic at least in some ways, what's the message Butler gives us in depicting self-sacrificing women? I'm not saying that compromise per se is bad but there *is* a difference between compromise and collaboration. Self-sacrifice also seems to be made for some higher purpose or a highe r Self, such as the species or the community. I'd like to raise the question whether this is *always* worth it? I agree that to survive it will be necessary even to collaborate at times, but to make it such a fundamental and pragmatic strategy as Butler does in her *feminist* fiction really irritates me, to say the least. Does anyone know of a SF novel where some humans carrying a deadly disease aboard a space ship rather commit suicide than infecting humans on earth? I forget the author. Or any other novels where this is resolved differently? On another note, Patrice Caldwell has something interesting to say on how Butler differs from mainstream SF in her depiction of the First Contact topos: http://www.enmu.edu/~mehaffym/gradweb/pc3.html Thank you for bearing with me, Ines ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 06:09:28 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF-LIT Digest - 6 Feb 2000 to 7 Feb 2000 (#2000-22) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems to me that a lot of the upset and irritation over Butler's novels (ALL of Butler's novels) is that most of us don't agree with her impression of The Way Things Are. One recurring theme in her work, for instance, is the idea that humans will never achieve any real communication with each other without some major biological modification. It may show up as telepathy (Parable of the Sower) or as genetic alteration (Xenogenesis), but she holds little hope that we will come to it naturally. Her views of race and gender relations are no more pleasant. But she has a right to these views, doesn't she? If you all will allow me a little biographical crit here, Butler is a black woman from the South of the U.S. who was raised by Baptists--I don't know what her economic class was. Her race, gender, regional affiliation, and religion would all likely have conspired against the kind of rosy "we can all get along if we only try" attitude that many of the respondents to this point have been searching for in her book(s). I would just suggest that we all stay with her. We may not agree with her views, but so what? In my own experience, I've found that it is the views of the people who upset me the most that I learn the most from. WHY do those views upset us? Is it because they remove hope? Because we fear she might be right? Because she's goring a few sacred cows? Because we've heard it all before, but from male writers and in a slightly different context? There are many, many possibilities, and some of them cause us to question some of our ideologies. As for her views on xenophobia...are there any anthropologists on the list? Are there any ethnographic studies which would illuminate typical human behavior amongst a group which has been so isolated that it was unaware of the existence of the outside world? Penguins may have blithely approached the first European explorers, but penguins are not humans. And finally, before criticising the book(s) too much, let's all be sure to have our facts straight. The humans do not all speak English, for instance. In fact most of them (this is explicitly stated in _Imago_) are survivors from Australia, South America, and Africa. The Oankali may be percieved as malevolent, but Butler's point--constantly reinforced--is that they are no less biologically determined than are the humans. They HAVE to trade for genetic material, just as humans HAVE to arrange themselves into heirarchies (in the scheme of the book). As a reader, one has to grant these two points before making arguments about the characters' motivations. Anyway, I look forward to more of this discussion. Sheryl ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 07:32:37 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF-LIT Digest - 6 Feb 2000 to 7 Feb 2000 (#2000-22) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > One recurring theme in her > work, for instance, is > the idea that humans will never achieve any real > communication with each > other without some major biological modification. Butler strongly believes that the human race is on the road to complete and utter destruction. A few weeks back on sci-fi wire she stated that we as a species are destroying ourselves and our planet with the polution we create day in and night out. She doesn't have much hope for us and I believe this lack of hope comes across very clearly in her writing. > Her views of race > and gender relations are no more pleasant. But she > has a right to these > views, doesn't she? I find Octavia cool and something of an anomaly because she is one of the few and I mean very few black women out there who writes sci-fi. She has a differnt perscpective on things and I like the chance to try on a new set of skin, to coin a phrase. > WHY do those views upset us? Is it because they > remove hope? Because we fear she might be right? > Because she's goring a few sacred cows? Because > we've heard it all before, but from male writers and > in a slightly different context? I don't know that I have read this view on things from male writers per se, but then again I don't read a lot of male wriiten sci-fi. There is something lacking I usually find. I just finished Canticle for Leibowitz, another story about how humans are rather pathetic and fated to never rise above it all, but rather repeat the same mistakes over and over again. I guess I had a hard time getting into the book mostly because there was no female presence to be found. I don't agree with Butler's views per se, but I do like the fact that her books affect me in a viseral way. Being disturbed can be just as effective as being enlightened. > Penguins may have blithely approached > the first European explorers, but penguins are not > humans. And check out human babies, our natural inclination is towards curiosity, not revulsion. They will apopraoch anything and to every mother's horror, put anything in their mouths. I believe we are taught to fear things that are different I don't believe that we are genetically encoded with that fear. Sharing some more Lyla __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 07:45:51 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF-LIT Digest - 6 Feb 2000 to 7 Feb 2000 (#2000-22) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > And why is > it always women having to make the self-sacrifice at > all? Is Butler > saying that compromising and partially giving up > one's ideals (also > speaking for a feminist objective) is ok? Yes, I wonder how the novel would have been different if the first person they integrated to their cause was male and if the male was to impregnate one of the Oankali. There are things about Lilith that almost remind me of an abused wife in the way she reacts to things and kind of negotiates with her true feelings. > Does anyone know of an sf novel where some humans > carrying a deadly disease aboard a space ship > rather commit suicide than infecting humans on > earth? I forget the author. Or any other novels > where this is resolved differently? Now there is an interesting take on things. I remeber one day talking with my fellow commuters on the GO train from Hamilton to Toronto about how there are far too many humans on the planet and we need to thin out the ranks so to speak with a nice plague or something. I guess they were pretty horrified with what I was propossing. Humans are like giant termites eating away at every single resource on this planet and we are an infestation. We are everywhere! And we are also very hard to kill off. . .look at all these drugs we have to prolong our lives. But we believe we are morally entitled to everything on this planet and when other species get in our way we kill them off to make more room for us. As a species we are so unbelievably arrogant. I can just imagine when we start maiking colonies in outer space and we encounter the native lifeforms of that planet and try to convince them we are more superior and rape them of their identies and land. Go planet EARTH! Hmmmmmmmm. . . .maybe I do agree with Butler's views after all. Sounding off yet again Lyla __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:28:53 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: BDG: Dawn/Xenophobia In-Reply-To: <002e01bf722d$59b08a60$34cf8ad1@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:09 AM 2/8/2000 -0600, Sheryl wrote: >If you all will allow me a little biographical crit >here, Butler is a black woman from the South of the U.S. who was raised by >Baptists--I don't know what her economic class was. Her race, gender, >regional affiliation, and religion would all likely have conspired against >the kind of rosy "we can all get along if we only try" attitude that many of >the respondents to this point have been searching for in her book(s). I haven't gotten this message out of the discussion. I and several others have just been pointing out that there is a strange uniformity to the humans' reactions in *Dawn*. I don't doubt that some people would react extremely negatively to the Oankali. What I doubt is that they would all react as similarly as they do. I'm not looking for a happy ending or warm fuzzies, just a little more subtlety. An author who seems to feel much the same pessimism about human nature, but handles it in a more rewarding (to me) way is James Tiptree Jr. In her stories, humans are almost invariably doomed, but at least the doom takes on a wide array of forms! Her story "The Women Men Don't See" makes an interesting companion piece to *Dawn*, actually. >I would just suggest that we all stay with her. We may not agree with her >views, but so what? In my own experience, I've found that it is the views >of the people who upset me the most that I learn the most from. WHY do >those views upset us? Is it because they remove hope? Because we fear she >might be right? Because she's goring a few sacred cows? Because we've >heard it all before, but from male writers and in a slightly different >context? There are many, many possibilities, and some of them cause us to >question some of our ideologies. Has Butler's fiction challenged *your* views? How has it rewarded you? >As for her views on xenophobia...are there any anthropologists on the list? >Are there any ethnographic studies which would illuminate typical human >behavior amongst a group which has been so isolated that it was unaware of >the existence of the outside world? Penguins may have blithely approached >the first European explorers, but penguins are not humans. I have a BA in Anthropology. And as far as I know, there is no "typical human behavior" when it comes to first contact with another group of humans. Some react violently, some are interested in trade, some are friendly. The pre-existing culture has a lot to do with the group's reaction, as does the behavior of the people meeting them. The cargo cults in Melanesia post-World War II present a fairly obvious alternative to the xenophobia Butler takes as a given. During the war, Allied troops stationed on the islands bestowed great wealth (supplies, otherwise known as "cargo") upon some of the indigenous peoples. Though somewhat disorienting to the affected cultures, this was viewed as a good thing. At the end of the war the troops left, and various groups began to engage in (and are still engaging in, in some areas) a wide variety of ritual behavior intended to magic into being the much-desired cargo and usher in a new era of prosperity. Cargo is something they would much rather have than not. And the Oankali's ability to increase strength, cure disease and improve memory is something I imagine I would rather have than not if I were Awakened by Lilith. On the other hand, I *wouldn't* like to be forced to have babies. Other women wouldn't mind that so much. The pros and cons of the Oankali presence would likely be tallied differently by different people. The point I am making is that I find Butler's emphasis on a very limited palette of human behaviors to be tiresome and a serious limitation of her work. I can accept, for the sake of the story, her axiom that all humans are hierarchical; what I can't accept is that "hierarchical behavior" boils down to resentful looks, insults and fights. It's more complex than that. >And finally, before criticising the book(s) too much, let's all be sure to >have our facts straight. The humans do not all speak English, for instance. This seems to be a response to my last post (at least I don't remember anyone else mentioning it). I was making this point specifically about *Dawn*, since it is the book being discussed. All of the humans that Lilith is given to Awaken are English speakers. Nikanj specifically mentions it. Of course there are other groups of humans being Awakened elsewhere in the ship, but we never meet them. I may seem contrary, but I am enjoying the discussion. It's really picked up with this book! ----- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Lo Fidelity Allstars -- How to Operate with a Blown Mind "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:52:37 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: BDG: Dawn/Contact MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I read fiction partly to learn how people can do > and be things I've never imagined; Butler's novels > leave me with a rather empty feeling on this front, I believe that Butler's works may leave readers feeling empty because her books do not contain a lot of hope. Her view of the world tends to be that all humans are inherintly eveil. Another post-apocalyptic book - Starhawk's The Fifth Sacred Thing also acknowledges that eveil exists, but she also believes in the power of good and ultimately that good will prevail. I suppose both viewpoints are needed to keep us in check, but I walked away from 5th Sacred Thing feeling a lot better about myself and others and also a tad enlightened about various ideas I hadn't opened myself up to before. Dawn left me feeling depressed. > Sheryl mentioned that the > Xenogenesis trilogy should be > discussed as a whole. Has anyone read the last book in the trilogy? I haven't yet. Would you recommed it? Lyla __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:09:24 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: Dawn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Men are seen as on the whole less adaptable to a > situation where they are > no longer in control. I would say that this is a > true characterisation. The > human men in the later books in the trilogy are more > interesting. Okay, perhaps there is a reason to read the last chapter afterall. Overall the series was leaving me feeling rather grim :( > There is no knight in silver armor. True. True. Lyla __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:35:39 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Nancy Phillips Subject: Re: BDG: Dawn/Contact (SPOILER) In-Reply-To: <20000208165237.5211.qmail@web1206.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Re: Lyla, and comment on general depressing nature of Butler novels. Yep, they are largely depressing, though there is some resolution in most of her work. Never is there an unalloyed "happy ever after". Things do get more hopeful at the end of the trilogy, SPOILER******************************************************************** which focuses on the maturing of a hybrid ooloi, who itself makes first contact with an isolated human community. It is clear to a large proportion (not all) of the resisters that their community is failing and that the Oankali can offer them survival. Many foresee their lovingly built houses falling into dust for lack of progeny, and start to lose the will to do anything. A few humans from remote locales have been missed by the Oankali, and rare individuals still retain the ability to procreate. The colony is highly inbred and debilitated with neurofibromatosis type I (autosomal dominant, present in 50% of offspring), since one of the founding parents, the sole founding female or the stranger rapist, had it. The community breeds this founding mother to her own fertile son, since there are no other fertile men in the community (rapist long gone), with predictable genetic results. The founding mother is eventually worshipped as a new Eve, a symbol of hope, by the sterile larger community. It becomes apparent to most that the fertile line is too sickly to make it longterm. Given this, the Oankali offer of healing and reproduction now looks good to this human colony. And the young ooloi, being part human, is not quite as alien as the original Oankali. Dawn left me feeling depressed. > >> Sheryl mentioned that the >> Xenogenesis trilogy should be >> discussed as a whole. > >Has anyone read the last book in the trilogy? >I haven't yet. >Would you recommed it? > >Lyla Nancy Phillips, M.D. phone:(314)577-8782 Pathology fax:(314)268-5120 St. Louis University Hospital email: phillinj@slu.edu 3635 Vista Ave. St. Louis, MO, 63110, USA aacgccaattgctatccccatattctgctaatcccgagcatggac ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:22:32 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: BDG: Dawn/Contact MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I don't know why but apparently I have spelling issues with the word evil! That's E-V-I-L! Yeesh! My only excuse is that yahoo doesn't have spell check okay. Lyla __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:57:10 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Susan Hericks Subject: FEMINISTSF-LIT BDG-Dawn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ines wrote: >To my mind, this is a question Butler frequently raises in her novels: >Whether to co-operate with alien forces or cling uncompromisingly to >one's humanity/dignity. The question in itself is justified in a >feminist context more than in any other, as I see it. > On page 199 of Dawn Butler writes: "Curt and Gabriel were still drugged along with a few others. Lilith worried about these. Oddly, she admired them for being able to resist conditioning. Were they strong then? Or simply unable to adapt?" This question really stood out to me as I read the book, because for me it was at the heart of the discomfort the book causes. Is Lilith "adaptable" or is she a "collaborator" as Ines has suggested? I was actually frustrated by the resistance of the humans because it seemed to me that human faults, not to mention diseases, would be mitigated by the "trade" with the Oankali. The question of whether or not it is a "trade" seems to be part of the feeling of exploitation that many of the humans have. The relationship between the humans and the Oankali is significantly different than the relationship of Doro to "his people" in the Wild Seed books. While both stories deal with interbreeding for certain traits, Doro is clearly cruel and unashamedly uses threats and punishments to control people. The Oankali seemed very different to me, even though there is no question that they have the power to do as they please. The view of the Oankali as "masters" along with things like the human men feeling "like women" etc. made me wonder how much of the conflict is due to the humans' inability or unwillingness to accept that the Oankali power paradigm (and gender role set-up) is TOTALLY UNLIKE the human one. They (and we?) interpret the Oankali behavior through the gendered human hierarchy. For example, when Lilith meets Paul Titus, he asks if she perceives her ooloi as male. She says "I've taken their work for what they are." Then he says, "When they woke me up, I thought the ooloi acted like men and women while the males and females acted like eunuchs. I never lost the habit of thinking of ooloi as male or female." Lilith thinks this is "a foolish way for someone who had decided to spend his life among the Oankali to think--a kind of deliberate, persistent ignorance" (page 90). Consider: It seems to me that many of the humans refuse to broaden their perception of gender and power and, as a result, cannot feel other than exploited. This is why the Oankali won't allow the "resisters" to reproduce--because this inability to adapt and grow will result in the destruction of each other and the planet, as before. I could never fully buy Butler's portrayal of Lilith's ambivalence about her relationship to the Oankali. From the actual evidence, I could not really understand why Lilith was not even more fully allied with them. That is not to say that I don't see some of the exploitive potential of what is going on, but I actually wanted to believe what the Oankali said about their need to trade and, even moreso, that their willingness to give humans quite a bit of freedom and a hell of a lot of other help proved that they were not malevolent, but genuinely operating with another power paradigm that was hard for humans to understand. However, I have to really agree with what has been said about Nikanj making Lilith pregnant without her knowledge. In the second book, Nikanj's explanation that this was only against "part " of Lilith's will made it even worse (Adulthood Rites). He says that she really wanted it (Joseph's child) but wouldn't ask for it. How awful! One other random thought that I had was in light of Arnason's _Ring of Swords_. In that book, the aliens are trying to determine if humans are really "people" based on our terrible behavior. It seems that in _Dawn_ the Oankali have made a sort of similar judgement in which humans, as is, are not really worth saving as a people, if we even are people, but we are well worth saving for our good qualities. Considering Butler's pessimism and the idea that we have to be genetically altered to see any improvement, which I don't ordinarily agree with, this argument seems pretty convincing in the context of the book. It's great that we have found a book that we actually want to talk about!! Susan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:15:09 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF-LIT Digest - 6 Feb 2000 to 7 Feb 2000 (#2000-22) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If any of you have the time or the resources, please check out Butler's short story "Bloodchild" (in the collection of the same name). In that story, it is the male humans who are impregnated by an alien species. The narrator is a young man who has to face the prospect of becoming pregnant with the grubs of his mother figure/lover/protector, who is a slug-like or insect-like creature (I'm not quite sure--I had a hard time picturing her). He loves his alien person, in a sense (maybe a Stockholm Syndrome sense), but he is understandably terrified at the prospect of being the host for her young. What makes it all worse is that a man who is hosting these alien grubs MUST have them taken out of his abdomen at the proper time, or they will eat him alive. The story is a good example of why we shouldn't necessarily assume that it is only women who must, in Butler's universe, make horrible sacrifices. She expects it of our whole species. Sheryl >> And why is >> it always women having to make the self-sacrifice at >> all? Is Butler >> saying that compromising and partially giving up >> one's ideals (also >> speaking for a feminist objective) is ok? > >Yes, I wonder how the novel would have been different >if the first person they integrated to their cause was >male and if the male was to impregnate one of the >Oankali. There are things about Lilith that almost >remind me of an abused wife in the way she reacts to >things and kind of negotiates with her true feelings. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:30:30 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: BDG: Dawn/Xenophobia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Has Butler's fiction challenged *your* views? How has it rewarded you? > Not a fair question at the moment. I'm just finishing my master's thesis, comparing her Xenogenesis to Samuel Delany's Tales of Neveryon. I'm a little sick of both of them right now. Ask me again in six months. OK, I'm kind of kidding. To be honest, I've been reading Butler mostly for her religious opinions. My thesis is a discussion of her twisting take on the traditional tropes (oh my--just reread that. Stop me before I alliterate again!) of biblical mythology and gender relations. Lilith HAS to be the first person awakened in the narrative, and she HAS to be named Lilith--she will always be a spoiler for one group or another. She has to be the first "mother." She has to make the "gods" rethink their position in re humanity. Since this does seem to be a trilogy which travels along a similar track as the Bible (both old and new testaments), humanity must be basically doomed (can I find 10 honest men? No? One honest man? No? OK, then, Sodom is toast!). Today I'm off into the New Testament parallels, in the third book, between Jodahs and Judas. IS he/it really a betrayer, and if so, of what? Humanity, or just of humanity's conception of itself? Jodahs' mates are named (doubting) Tomas and Jesusa. Didactic? You bet. Transparently allegorical? Sure. I was only partly kidding when I said I was a little bit tired of this writer. But I like anyone who is hard-headed and unrelenting in her pessimism. It gives me something to argue with. Someone mentioned Tiptree--I've only read one of her stories, but I loved it (Houston Houston Do You Read). And I like Joanna Russ, but I find her depressing in the extreme if I read more than one or two of her books too close together. For some reason, I can take more of Butler's pessimism than of Russ'. Good discussion, this. Sheryl ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:55:08 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: BDG: Dawn/Contact In-Reply-To: <20000208165237.5211.qmail@web1206.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed SPOILER ALERT (TRILOGY) >Has anyone read the last book in the trilogy? >I haven't yet. >Would you recommed it? > >Lyla I've read the whole trilogy and heartily recommend it because the issue of cooperation and the hope that some people mention are addressed in the complete trilogy--it's still fairly bleak,and the focus shifts from Lilith as a point of view character to her children. Since DAWN is part of a trilogy, it seems a bit unfair to make certain generalizations based on only the first novel........ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:54:59 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF-LIT Digest - 6 Feb 2000 to 7 Feb 2000 (#2000-22) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > If any of you have the time or the resources, please > check out Butler's > short story "Bloodchild" (in the collection of the > same name). Thank you. That was the title of the short story collection. Bloodchild was my first encounter with Octavia's work. It is pretty creepy stuff. > The story is a good example of > why we shouldn't > necessarily assume that it is only women who must, > in Butler's universe, > make horrible sacrifices. She expects it of our > whole species. I'm going to have to hunt down that collection again, because I do not remember that story at all. I remember one that explained how telepathic humans came into being and how they are segregated and another about people who can't talk and people who can't see or something like that and everyone due to some catastrophe has one ability or the other. It creates a really screwed up society. There is another story that reminded me of Connie Willis' "the last of the winnebagos" too. I'll definately have to scour the bookshelves and read it again. Thanks for passing on the title Lyla __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:44:15 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Fifth Sacred Thing (was Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Dawn/Contact In-Reply-To: <20000208165237.5211.qmail@web1206.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >I believe that Butler's works may leave readers >feeling empty because her books do not contain a lot >of hope. Her view of the world tends to be that all >humans are inherintly eveil. Another post-apocalyptic >book - Starhawk's The Fifth Sacred Thing also >acknowledges that eveil exists, but she also believes >in the power of good and ultimately that good will >prevail. I suppose both viewpoints are needed to keep >us in check, but I walked away from 5th Sacred Thing >feeling a lot better about myself and others and also >a tad enlightened about various ideas I hadn't opened >myself up to before. Dawn left me feeling depressed. Spoiler warning --- I did not have the same reaction to The Fifth Sacred Thing. It's been a while since I read it, so my memory is a bit sketchy. I was very disappointed when the protagonists resorted to the violence of the southern culture, especially after the entire book focused on the power of spirit and community to change societies. With only a thin veneer of "sacredness," the characters suddenly accepted the values (killing, military action, violence) they purported to be working against. The end of the book was an utter disappointment. I'm all for good prevailing, but not at the cost of adopting evil's methods. ----- A man walked into the room today, and said: "The world is ending!" And some of us....believed him. Chris Shaffer http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ chris@bsinc.net AIM:ChrisShaff ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:28:23 +0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG: Dawn, and our reaction to aliens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed It's so great to see the discussion picking up again! And for one of my favorite books, too. I just love the idea of turning cancer into something positive. A few folks have mentioned doubt that humans would have such a visceral negative reaction to the aliens. I think this is actually probably more likely than not, and rooted in the "alien" seeming in many ways to be human. If they looked radically different from us, then it might be easier. But if they can walk and talk and even somewhat resemble humans (the "eyes" that weren't really eyes, the "hair" that was more like snakes), then that just computes to WRONG and the reaction is at that point instinctive. Consider how most people who don't fit society's "norm" are often shunned to a greater or lesser degree, from the physically disabled to the gender outlaws. Ask any very butch dyke for example how comfortable she is in women's restrooms, and she'll probably tell you that people can be outright hostile if you don't look like their idea of a woman. For an extreme case consider the case of Brandon Teena (there's an excellent movie playing now in the US about his life, called Boys Don't Cry.) If you are different enough, you are killed. So if you were awakened in a strange place and then confronted by this person who was so WRONG, I think that extreme response is believable. It's been a long time since I first read the trilogy and I'm now just partway through Dawn again. One thing I remember being surprised at the last time was why it was always assumed that merging with the Oankali was not human destiny. We as humans already have the basic idea of creating the next generation by two adults merging their genes, and how is this so different? Why is it more wrong than staying the same? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:36:54 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: BDG: Dawn, and our reaction to aliens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I just love the idea of turning cancer into something positive. Certainly an interesting twist. I'm not sure that I like the implication (which I didn't get from the book) that cancer is a positive thing. > A few folks have mentioned doubt that humans would have such a visceral > negative reaction to the aliens. I think this is actually probably more > likely than not, and rooted in the "alien" seeming in many ways to be > human. I expect there would be such a violent reaction from some people. Like others have said, though, I expect that this reaction wouldn't be across the board. Some people might have such a strong reaction. Others might have much less strong a reaction. On the other hand, living in a totally alien culture would probably put a heavy stress on just about everyone and the addition of that constant stress would probably push people closer to a dangerous/violent edge. I don't recall this being mentioned as a contributing factor in the book, though. > Why is it more wrong than staying the same? That's a point that I found kind of driven into the ground. Humans don't stay the same--we evolve over time. However, this is very different from the kind of changes that the Oankali are "offerring". -allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:01:15 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Fifth Sacred Thing (was Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Dawn/Contact In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000208183409.00b09440@bsinc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII spoilers --- chris, are you sure you're remembering THE FIFTH SACRED THING? the whole thing was about passive resistance -- they resisted while many many good people were killed, until the bad guys basically went insane from their evilness, had nervous breakdowns, and then came over to the good side. On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Chris Shaffer wrote: > >I believe that Butler's works may leave readers > >feeling empty because her books do not contain a lot > >of hope. Her view of the world tends to be that all > >humans are inherintly eveil. Another post-apocalyptic > >book - Starhawk's The Fifth Sacred Thing also > >acknowledges that eveil exists, but she also believes > >in the power of good and ultimately that good will > >prevail. I suppose both viewpoints are needed to keep > >us in check, but I walked away from 5th Sacred Thing > >feeling a lot better about myself and others and also > >a tad enlightened about various ideas I hadn't opened > >myself up to before. Dawn left me feeling depressed. > > Spoiler warning --- > > I did not have the same reaction to The Fifth Sacred Thing. It's been a > while since I read it, so my memory is a bit sketchy. I was very > disappointed when the protagonists resorted to the violence of the southern > culture, especially after the entire book focused on the power of spirit > and community to change societies. With only a thin veneer of > "sacredness," the characters suddenly accepted the values (killing, > military action, violence) they purported to be working against. The end > of the book was an utter disappointment. I'm all for good prevailing, but > not at the cost of adopting evil's methods. > > ----- > A man walked into the room today, and said: > "The world is ending!" > And some of us....believed him. > Chris Shaffer http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ > chris@bsinc.net AIM:ChrisShaff > Laura Quilter lauraq@exploratorium.edu ph: 415.353.0465 / 415.561.0343 Learning Center Facilities Manager Exploratorium, San Francisco ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:48:55 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: BDG: Dawn, and our reaction to aliens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I just love the idea of turning cancer into something positive. > >Certainly an interesting twist. I'm not sure that I like the >implication (which I didn't get from the book) that cancer is >a positive thing. > Maybe the first book isn't explicit--it's been awhile since I read it--but the Oankali are able, because of studying human cancer cells and learning how they grow, to regenerate _any_ damaged or wrongly-grown tissue, human or Oankali. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:00:27 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Susan Hericks Subject: Re: Fifth Sacred Thing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>I believe that Butler's works may leave readers >>feeling empty because her books do not contain a lot >>of hope. Her view of the world tends to be that all >>humans are inherintly eveil. Another post-apocalyptic >>book - Starhawk's The Fifth Sacred Thing also >>acknowledges that eveil exists, but she also believes >>in the power of good and ultimately that good will >>prevail. I suppose both viewpoints are needed to keep >>us in check, but I walked away from 5th Sacred Thing >>feeling a lot better about myself and others and also >>a tad enlightened about various ideas I hadn't opened >>myself up to before. Dawn left me feeling depressed. Chris wrote, responding to the above: >Spoiler warning --- > >I did not have the same reaction to The Fifth Sacred Thing. It's been a >while since I read it, so my memory is a bit sketchy. I was very >disappointed when the protagonists resorted to the violence of the southern >culture, especially after the entire book focused on the power of spirit >and community to change societies. With only a thin veneer of >"sacredness," the characters suddenly accepted the values (killing, >military action, violence) they purported to be working against. The end >of the book was an utter disappointment. I'm all for good prevailing, but >not at the cost of adopting evil's methods. > I have to disagree with both these readings of _The Fifth Sacred Thing_. While Starhawk is a far sight more optomistic than Butler, I don't think she ever argues that good will inevitably prevail. I think that, rather, the jist of the book is that every action we take is important, but that our survival is never assured. And so we have all the more responsibility to make constructive choices, even in the face of inevitable failures that should not discourage us completely. Spolier I don't know how a reader can conclude that the people of the city in the North revert to the violent tactics of the South. By that I simply mean that the contents of the book never indicate that. One faction does not agree to use non-cooperation against the invaders and blows up the dam they build repeatedly. As a result some of the people from the city are executed, but there is no attempt to kill the invading soldiers. The most aggressive tactic that the people use is approaching the killers of their relatives and telling them about the person they murdered. At the end of the book, some soldiers do take arms against others, but there is no indication that the city people ever do. I loved this book, but have read it perhaps too many times now, due to writing a chapter in my dissertation on it! Phew! Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:07:14 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Susan Hericks Subject: Re: BDG: Dawn, and our reaction to aliens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer wrote: We as humans already have the basic idea of creating >the next generation by two adults merging their genes, and how is this so >different? Why is it more wrong than staying the same? I understood that the changes due to interbreeding with the Oankali would be a lot more dramatic than ordinary human evolution, as it were, but I also thought that the rage for human purity was extreme. I believe that some of the humans would feel that way, but not all. I am now reading _Adulthood Rites_ and I find Akin, Lilith's part Oankali son, the most interesting character in the series so far. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 05:33:03 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Re: Fifth Sacred Thing (was Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Dawn/Contact In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Spoiler warning--- But then, after they had their nervous breakdowns and came over to the good side, they proceeded to use violence to further the good cause. Rather than adopting non-violent means, the coverts "saved the day" by attacking and killing the "bad guys" - with the full encouragement and support of the non-violent good guys. Chris chris@bsinc.net >chris, are you sure you're remembering THE FIFTH SACRED THING? the whole >thing was about passive resistance -- they resisted while many many good >people were killed, until the bad guys basically went insane from their >evilness, had nervous breakdowns, and then came over to the good side. > >On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Chris Shaffer wrote: > > > >I believe that Butler's works may leave readers > > >feeling empty because her books do not contain a lot > > >of hope. Her view of the world tends to be that all > > >humans are inherintly eveil. Another post-apocalyptic > > >book - Starhawk's The Fifth Sacred Thing also > > >acknowledges that eveil exists, but she also believes > > >in the power of good and ultimately that good will > > >prevail. I suppose both viewpoints are needed to keep > > >us in check, but I walked away from 5th Sacred Thing > > >feeling a lot better about myself and others and also > > >a tad enlightened about various ideas I hadn't opened > > >myself up to before. Dawn left me feeling depressed. > > > > Spoiler warning --- > > > > I did not have the same reaction to The Fifth Sacred Thing. It's been a > > while since I read it, so my memory is a bit sketchy. I was very > > disappointed when the protagonists resorted to the violence of the southern > > culture, especially after the entire book focused on the power of spirit > > and community to change societies. With only a thin veneer of > > "sacredness," the characters suddenly accepted the values (killing, > > military action, violence) they purported to be working against. The end > > of the book was an utter disappointment. I'm all for good prevailing, but > > not at the cost of adopting evil's methods. > > > > ----- > > A man walked into the room today, and said: > > "The world is ending!" > > And some of us....believed him. > > Chris Shaffer http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ > > chris@bsinc.net AIM:ChrisShaff > > > >Laura Quilter lauraq@exploratorium.edu > ph: 415.353.0465 / 415.561.0343 >Learning Center Facilities Manager >Exploratorium, San Francisco ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 0100 08:24:53 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Annalise Subject: Re: Fifth Sacred Thing (was Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: In-Reply-To: from "Laura Quilter" at Feb 8, 0 07:01:15 pm Content-Type: text > > spoilers --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > chris, are you sure you're remembering THE FIFTH SACRED THING? the whole > thing was about passive resistance -- they resisted while many many good > people were killed, until the bad guys basically went insane from their > evilness, had nervous breakdowns, and then came over to the good side. > I remember it the same as as Chris, while the military from the South did join up with the town, they still battled the military that didn't. The soldiers became the army for the town, effectively. The ending completely destroyed the message that Starhawk was trying to convey, IMHO. Edie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:24:29 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: Fifth Sacred Thing (was Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Dawn/Contact MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I was very > disappointed when the protagonists resorted to the > violence of the southern > culture, especially after the entire book focused on > the power of spirit > and community to change societies. Ummmm. . .I think I need to read it again. I thought that the people living in the "ideal" community debate about whether to fight back or not, but in the end they choose peace. Hmmmmm. . .all this re-reading I must do :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:56:22 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rowena Alberga Subject: Oonkali morality and culture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone, I just joined this list and I was quite pleased to see that the first discussion would be about DAWN, a book I read some years ago and remember liking. Rereading it (and it two sequels) I was troubeled by it much more than I remember from the first time. Strangely enough, I had a sort of positive impression from last time (OK humanity as it now is was doomed but strange and loving aliens would come and rescue us - I must have read it with a sort of big eyed litle girl's love of wonder). Butler's description of humanity is quite grim and compared to this the Oonkali seem to be presented as morally superior. Some things allready discussed make clear that his is not so simple (most notebly the unasked for impregnation of Lillith) but what about the Oonkali's treatment of other animals, plants (and planets), they use and adapt plants and animals to fulfil their own needs, genetic manipulalition in optima forma. Is any bothered by this? Lyla Miklos wrote: > One attitude that was very prevelant from the humans > was a "Who do these aliens think they are? How dare > they?" stance that really irked me. I kind of felt > that these humans had no right to complain. Here are > these aliens giving you a second chance after you > completely destroyed your own planet. Who do you guys > think YOU are? ++++++++++++++++SPOILER ALERT++++++++++++++++ But that is exactly what they have done ! Their ships need to eat a whole planet before they can travel through space.The Oonkali *need* to travel through space (a biological need) just as they *need* the trade. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This 'need' is also a bit of a problem for me. Do the Oonkali have culture ? They are very interested in human culture (remember Ninkaj explaining why the original human being is more valuable than its genetic print) but I haven't seen any sign of Oonkali culture. In part 3 we can read that they don't have any stories that are not based on reality. So, Oonkali need trade, humans will destroy themselves. Is anyone disturbed by this strong BIOLOLY IS DESTINY message this seems to be ? My apologies that my first contribution is such a long one, Rowena Alberga ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:04:06 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Nancy Phillips Subject: Re: BDG: Dawn, and our reaction to aliens In-Reply-To: <003501bf72cc$6f1f99a0$583f45cf@oemcomputer> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am not so sure that most humans would be thrilled to have slate-grey children with tentacles. Many or most humans aren't too thrilled to have biracial grandchildren, after all. And there the changes are minor and have nothing to do with major abilities, unlike the Oankali-human hybrids, who can do things by virtue of Oankali-ness that their human parents could never do. Some people adapt to "different" children, but deep down most would rather have a child that strongly resembles them. I do believe that human cloning, if ever made practicable, would be hugely popular even without corrective or aesthetic enhancements. At 01:07 AM 2/9/00 -0600, you wrote: >Jennifer wrote: > >We as humans already have the basic idea of creating >>the next generation by two adults merging their genes, and how is this so >>different? Why is it more wrong than staying the same? > > >I understood that the changes due to interbreeding with the Oankali would be >a lot more dramatic than ordinary human evolution, as it were, but I also >thought that the rage for human purity was extreme. I believe that some of >the humans would feel that way, but not all. I am now reading _Adulthood >Rites_ and I find Akin, Lilith's part Oankali son, the most interesting >character in the series so far. > >Susan > Nancy Phillips, M.D. phone:(314)577-8782 Pathology fax:(314)268-5120 St. Louis University Hospital email: phillinj@slu.edu 3635 Vista Ave. St. Louis, MO, 63110, USA aacgccaattgctatccccatattctgctaatcccgagcatggac ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:12:48 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: BDG: Dawn, and our reaction to aliens: Phillips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In my experience, some, rather than many or most, and most of them only until such time as the grandchildren are a reality as opposed to a "scary" concept. -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Phillips [mailto:phillinj@SLU.EDU] Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Dawn, and our reaction to aliens I am not so sure that most humans would be thrilled to have slate-grey children with tentacles. Many or most humans aren't too thrilled to have biracial grandchildren, after all. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 06:33:38 PST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: Oonkali morality and culture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:56:22 +0100 >From: Rowena Alberga >Subject: Oonkali morality and culture > >Hi everyone, > >I just joined this list and I was quite pleased to see that the first >discussion would be about DAWN, a book I read some years ago and remember >liking. Rereading it (and it two sequels) I was troubeled by it much more >than I remember from the first time. Strangely enough, I had a sort of >positive impression from last time (OK humanity as it now is was doomed but >strange and loving aliens would come and rescue us - I must have read it >with a sort of big eyed litle girl's love of wonder). Butler's description >of humanity is quite grim and compared to this the Oonkali seem to be >presented as morally superior. Some things allready discussed make clear >that his is not so simple (most notebly the unasked for impregnation of >Lillith) but what about the Oonkali's treatment of other animals, plants >(and planets), they use and adapt plants and animals to fulfil their own >needs, genetic manipulalition in optima forma. Is any bothered by this? Well, yeah. To me the Oonkali seemed like genetic imperialists: they come with their superior technology to other worlds and assimilate their genetic material. Sort of like a kinder, gentler Borg. Moreover, the aliens seem very comfortable with their role and lifestyle, at least in the first book of the trilogy. Even though they are masters of genetic alteration and might be able to change their own life cycle, they don't seem to see any need to do so. A lot of the biological determinism that runs through this series (the Ooloi *must* manipulate other races, humans *must* destroy themselves) comes from the Ooloi perspective. Dan Krashin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 06:38:41 PST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Daniel Krashin Subject: OSC interview in Salon.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I hadn't seen anything on the list, so I thought I'd mention it: there's a Orson Scott Card interview by a Jewish feminist lesbian in Salon, at: http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2000/02/03/card/index.html To be honest, it's a crummy interview, but still interesting for OSC's readers. It certainly clears up the question of OSC's homophobia... Dan Krashin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:02:42 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: OSC interview in Salon.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This one has been thoroughly discussed on ScienceFiction-L at IU and on IAFA's list...consensus seems to be that Minkowitz is rude, naive, and self-dramatizing, and Card is baiting and nuts. Actually, they use each other quite conveniently, and a pox on all. While I share Minkowitz's political sentiments (perhaps except for when she strives a little too hard to show us how iconoclastic she is), her self-absorbtion is as trying as Card's martyr act. -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Krashin [mailto:dkrashin@HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 9:39 AM To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSF-L*] OSC interview in Salon.com I hadn't seen anything on the list, so I thought I'd mention it: there's a Orson Scott Card interview by a Jewish feminist lesbian in Salon, at: http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2000/02/03/card/index.html To be honest, it's a crummy interview, but still interesting for OSC's readers. It certainly clears up the question of OSC's homophobia... Dan Krashin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:24:10 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dave Samuelson Subject: Re: Oonkali morality and culture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel Krashin wrote: > >Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:56:22 +0100 > >From: Rowena Alberga > >Subject: Oonkali morality and culture > > > >Hi everyone, > > > >I just joined this list and I was quite pleased to see that the first > >discussion would be about DAWN, a book I read some years ago and remember > >liking. Rereading it (and it two sequels) I was troubeled by it much more > >than I remember from the first time. Strangely enough, I had a sort of > >positive impression from last time (OK humanity as it now is was doomed but > >strange and loving aliens would come and rescue us - I must have read it > >with a sort of big eyed litle girl's love of wonder). Butler's description > >of humanity is quite grim and compared to this the Oonkali seem to be > >presented as morally superior. Some things allready discussed make clear > >that his is not so simple (most notebly the unasked for impregnation of > >Lillith) but what about the Oonkali's treatment of other animals, plants > >(and planets), they use and adapt plants and animals to fulfil their own > >needs, genetic manipulalition in optima forma. Is any bothered by this? > > Well, yeah. To me the Oonkali seemed like genetic imperialists: > they come with their superior technology to other worlds and > assimilate their genetic material. Sort of like a kinder, gentler > Borg. > > Moreover, the aliens seem very comfortable with their role and > lifestyle, at least in the first book of the trilogy. Even > though they are masters of genetic alteration and might be able > to change their own life cycle, they don't seem to see any need > to do so. A lot of the biological determinism that runs through > this series (the Ooloi *must* manipulate other races, humans > *must* destroy themselves) comes from the Ooloi perspective. > > Dan Krashin > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com This categorical imperative resembles that of the superior aliens in Doris Lessing's space fantasies. Not the exclusive province of either left nor right, totalitarianism is personal. Auden got it right in "September 1, 1939": shared by all, "Nijinsky's wish" was "Not universal love,/But to be loved alone" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:12:54 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Susan Hericks Subject: Re: Oonkali morality and culture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan wrote: A lot of the biological determinism that runs through >> this series (the Ooloi *must* manipulate other races, humans >> *must* destroy themselves) comes from the Ooloi perspective. >> I may be repeating myself, but doesn't this raise the question of whose perception we concur with? Does perception=reality? If so, does the hierarchical human view of the Oankali as exploitive masters dictate their "reality" while the Oankali are not, as far as the text describes their culture and their own self-perception, NOT hierarchial? Things change in the 2nd book (and I presume third) when human-Oankali children begin to mediate the species' perceptions of one another. It seems like some of us are saying that the Oankali are "really" just "genetic imperialists" or totalitarians. From one perspective they are and I can relate to that). BUT isn't the fact that it's not so simple one of the reasons why this book pushes our buttons? Susan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 06:37:48 PST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF-LIT Digest - 9 Feb 2000 to 10 Feb 2000 (#2000-25) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:02:42 -0600 >From: Todd Mason >Subject: Re: OSC interview in Salon.com > >This one has been thoroughly discussed on ScienceFiction-L at IU and >on >IAFA's list...consensus seems to be that Minkowitz is rude, naive,and >self-dramatizing, and Card is baiting and nuts. Actually, they use >each >other quite conveniently, and a pox on all. While I share >Minkowitz's >political sentiments (perhaps except for when she strives a little >too >hard >to show us how iconoclastic she is), her self-absorbtion is as >trying as >Card's martyr act. Hmm, I saw another dynamic at work in the interview: the age-old confrontation of the author with his/her World's Greatest Fan, who knows What You're Trying To Say and will accept no assurances to the contrary. It made me wonder if Minkowitz has attended any cons? Dan Krashin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:00:39 +0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: BDG: Dawn, and our reaction to aliens In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000209150406.00bc9c30@POP3.SLU.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed After I sent my earlier posting wondering what was so wrong with evolving toward the Oankali, I realized what I think the answer is. Yes, evolution is natural, and yes, the changes that the Oankali represent are "beneficial", at least many of them are. However, for me it comes down to a question of choice. The humans are not given the choice of merging or not merging, and on an individual level are only passive participants. In a sense we've always been passive participants, not able to choose which genes are passed along. But it's not equal because the Oankali are NOT passive. But then again, Butler doesn't strive for fair. If the humans almost destroyed themselves, perhaps the best they could hope for is passive transmission of some of their genes. Her works are grim and realistic rather than pretty. Jennifer At 03:04 PM 2/9/00 -0600, you wrote: >I am not so sure that most humans would be thrilled to have slate-grey >children with tentacles. Many or most humans aren't too thrilled to have >biracial grandchildren, after all. And there the changes are minor and have >nothing to do with major abilities, unlike the Oankali-human hybrids, who >can do things by virtue of Oankali-ness that their human parents could >never do. Some people adapt to "different" children, but deep down most >would rather have a child that strongly resembles them. I do believe that >human cloning, if ever made practicable, would be hugely popular even >without corrective or aesthetic enhancements. > >At 01:07 AM 2/9/00 -0600, you wrote: > >Jennifer wrote: > > > >We as humans already have the basic idea of creating > >>the next generation by two adults merging their genes, and how is this so > >>different? Why is it more wrong than staying the same? > > > > > >I understood that the changes due to interbreeding with the Oankali would be > >a lot more dramatic than ordinary human evolution, as it were, but I also > >thought that the rage for human purity was extreme. I believe that some of > >the humans would feel that way, but not all. I am now reading _Adulthood > >Rites_ and I find Akin, Lilith's part Oankali son, the most interesting > >character in the series so far. > > > >Susan > > >Nancy Phillips, M.D. phone:(314)577-8782 >Pathology fax:(314)268-5120 >St. Louis University Hospital email: phillinj@slu.edu >3635 Vista Ave. >St. Louis, MO, 63110, USA > >aacgccaattgctatccccatattctgctaatcccgagcatggac ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:40:41 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allyson Shaw Subject: BDG Dawn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've really been enjoying the discussion so far. I just finished the book last night and have been saving all the emails. After reading everybody's posts I have a much better sense of why this book fascinated me. I can forgive the wooden characterization because essentially, this is an allegory of co-optation. In most allegories, characters and things are symbolic-- represent something larger, and in doing so, become less distinct on their own. Jessie makes the point that humans are "invited to join the Oankali, but solely on their terms" Though the Oankali are "saviors," they drive a hard bargain-- making it impossible for humans to reproduce without them, destroying what was left of human culture and denying Lilith access to writing materials initially. This aspect of the book hasn't been tapped in discussion yet. If this is an allegory of colonial co-optation, then this destruction and denial of written language resembles the colonial take-over of a culture. Franz Fanon speaks of this process in The Wretched of the Earth-- that part of the colonial process is not just a claiming of land and labor, but of the colonized mind-- and all that fortified that mind-- i.e. culture. The Oankali want mind and body, and human intimacy-- the most precious elements of humanity. The fact that the Oankali are mostly sweet and rational, often moral and reasonable, makes their demands and their power even more insidious. Nancy pointed out that the heroes in Butler's books cut "morally ambiguous" bargains-- and if Dawn is and allegory of co-optation, of the process of colonization, then this makes sense. We can't look to the book for celebratory examples to follow-- the choices the oppressed make to survive are often compromised-- that's the nature of oppression. I've also read Kindred by Butler, and in this novel the protagonist is in terribly close proximity to her oppressor, and must make difficult decisions so that she can continue to exist. The most interesting aspect of Dawn was Lilith's alienation-- the more she sided with the Oankali, the more she lost what she really wanted-- to return to Earth, to try to be fully human again and be with other humans. It reminds me of Audre Lorde's words, "You can't dismantle the master's house with the master's tools" But Butler creates a more intricate scenario, it's not about rebellion or dismantling the Oankali's power over humans-- the human race must make a bargain or perish. Lilith's version of rebellion, "Learn and run" is interesting, and makes me want to read the other books to see how this plays out. Rowena asked, "Do the Oankali have a culture?" And I think this is an astute question-- I haven't read the other books in the series, so I can only discuss this one. But the Oankali's technology is intimately connected to their bodies and to chemical biology. They can't or won't understand the human need to write and keep records. I suppose one could ask, why should they? Humans themselves destroyed most of those things in the holocaust, but still, the Oankali don't seem to have any cultural integrity themselves, they need others to reinvent themselves. This is an interesting parallel to the insidious machine of colonialism. Daniel has pointed out that the Oankali are genetic imperialists, and I have to agree with this point of view.