From LISTSERV@listserv.uic.edu Fri Aug 25 10:35:51 2000 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:34:06 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0004C" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:17:59 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: BDG: Remnant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I LOVED this book! I know that a lot of you prefer Octavia Butler, and the traffic on her books is a lot heavier, but i was very happy to read something that wasn't so depressing. Ofelia is a wonderful character. I started both this month's book and the one for last month sumultaneously. Since they both start out with old women who are trying to decide whether or not to leave a planet, at first I got the two characters mixed up. About the time I figured out who was who, I was much more interested in Remnant Population than last month's book. People have commented a lot on their disappointment that the other female characters are so badly drawn. Well, did you really like any of the male characters? Except for the very brief glimpse of the dynamics on the ship, most of the characcterization was drawn through Ofelia's eyes. And face it, folks. She's a crotchety old lady. So crotchety that she prefers her own company to that of anybody else. So crotchety that she goes to great pains to abandon/be abandoned by the rest of her society when they leave the planet. So, just which of the male characters was drawn as intelligent and sympathetic? Her son? ANY of the scientist or military crew? Even the memories of both her husbands are colored with great relief that such a period in her life is finally over. So, yes, the other females are drawn less than sympathetically. But so are the men. And to be fair, I don't think this is a flaw in the book. I think that from Ofelia's eyes, nearly everybody would come up wanting. (+)-(+) your bifocaled, bookish friend, | \____/ Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:15:59 -0500 Reply-To: quiltedpoetry@att.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Liz Bennefeld Subject: Re: BDG: Remnant In-Reply-To: <38F95B16.2CA6C8A5@cdsnet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT As I read your e-mail, Sharon, I realized who Ofelia reminds me of ... both of my grandmothers, but particularly my mother's mother. After she retired (at age 70?), she took a job as an undercover store detective in Des Moines, Iowa. Was still working there until the week she died -- age 84. Florence is the one I see and hear when I imagine Ofelia. I chuckled my way through Remnant Population, and I enjoyed seeing the world through Ofelia's eyes. I find myself being even more uncharitable in my own mind, sometimes, and I believe that I also would have chosen to remain when the others left. I must admit, but I've yet to make it past the first couple chapters of any of Octavia Butler's books. They lack, for one thing, the wonderful sense of humor or perspective or feeling of reality (or whatever it is) that's so thoroughly dished up in Elizabeth Moon's science fiction. Her Herris Serano (sp?) series has an abundance of older ladies who could serve as wondrous role models! Best regards, Elizabeth On 15 Apr 00, at 22:17, Sharon Anderson wrote: > I LOVED this book! > I know that a lot of you prefer Octavia Butler, and the > traffic > on her books > is a lot heavier, but i was very happy to read something that wasn't > so depressing. > -- E. W. Bennefeld Freelance Writer, Editor, and Academic Style Editor Since 1984 d.b.a. The Written Word QuiltedPoetry@att.net http://TheWrittenWord.home.att.net http://www.PatchworkProse.com "The antithesis of altruism is nihilism." -- E. Wicker ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 07:56:59 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Grete Subject: Remnant Population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I just finished Remnant Population, and have been browsing the posts made thus far. Although I agree that Ofelia as a likeable character, I left this story feeling dissatisfied. The one-dimensionality of virtually every other character in the book was a major factor, but not quite in the way that has been observed by others. Let's see if I can get to the meat of what bothered me so much about the resolution of RP.... We start of with Ofelia's son, the stereotypical machista male, and his wife, the stereotypical shrew. There is not enough interaction between Ofelia and her other villagemates to get much of a feel for them, so I will leave them out of the mix. Then we have the "indigenes", whom she views largely as demanding, inconsiderate children until Blue Cloak arrives. Finally, we meet the team of scientists - Team leader, Dr. Scientific-Inquiry-is-an-Extension-of-my-Phallus (Donna Haraway^Òs nightmare!), Sergeant Conquest and His Thick-Necked Goons, and the women: Drs. My-Ass-is-my-Passport and the marginally sympathetic Everyone-Around-Me-Is-A-Doofus-But-It-Would-All-Be-OK-If-Only-The-Anthropologist-Loved-Me-And-We-Could-Make-A-Baby. As I progressed through the book, I recognized that Ofelia saw virtually everyone around her as some archetype of human frailty, but I did not mind so much. I didn^Òt mind because I was certain that the author was setting Ofelia up to realize that although her remaining behind was the final act of rebellion against a society that refused to see her as a fully realized human rather than a body filling the roles proscribed to women in her culture, she herself was unable to escape the same patterns of categorization that had been inflicted upon her since birth. I fully expected Ofelia^Òs growth to stem from the recognition of her own hypocrisy, and the damage that her preconceived notions could do to herself, her peers, and the newly discovered indigenes. You can imagine my surprise when I discovered during the uninspired wrap-up of events that the take-home message was, in fact, that Ofelia was right. I^Òm sure that the author succeeded in what she intended to say ^Ö I was simply surprised at what a limited view she took of humanity and its potential. After such a long buildup to what I considered the most important aspect of the story, Ofelia^Òs role as an intermediary between the familiar and the foreign, I just couldn^Òt get over the abundance of things unsaid. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:03:44 -0500 Reply-To: quiltedpoetry@att.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Liz Bennefeld Subject: Re: Remnant Population In-Reply-To: <20000416145659.18539.qmail@web3902.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This may be a critical point that you've hit, here! I do believe that Ofelia was right. Also, I believe that the viability of our current societies/social structure is extremely limited. While Ofelia viewed the people around her (and herself) in terms of stereotypes (and voices of people from her past who gradually ceased to outshout her own inner voice), her stereotypes were, I believe, fairly accurate -- or at least utilitarian and self-empowering. Best regads, Elizabeth On 16 Apr 00, at 7:56, Grete wrote: > > You can imagine my surprise when I discovered during > the uninspired wrap-up of events that the take-home > message was, in fact, that Ofelia was right. I^Òm sure > that the author succeeded in what she intended to say > ^Ö I was simply surprised at what a limited view she > took of humanity and its potential. After such a long > buildup to what I considered the most important aspect > of the story, Ofelia^Òs role as an intermediary between > the familiar and the foreign, I just couldn^Òt get over > the abundance of things unsaid. -- E. W. Bennefeld Freelance Writer, Editor, and Academic Style Editor Since 1984 d.b.a. The Written Word QuiltedPoetry@att.net http://TheWrittenWord.home.att.net http://www.PatchworkProse.com "The antithesis of altruism is nihilism." -- E. Wicker ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:33:04 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Margaret McBride Subject: BDG-Remnant Population MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am interested in the topic of older people in SF--non-enhanced normally aging people. I appreciate the references to some examples that have been mentioned. Why do you think older people are infrequent in SF--are we still caught up in our past-- SF as adventure? Are editors and authors still thinking of the audience as the younger more predominatly male as was once thought (even though that is being questioned not even for the pulp mags)? At the 20th anniversary of WISCON (feminist SF con), Lois Bujold said she had been turned down by a publisher of big print books with the line that older people didn't read SF. Someone in the audience asked for a show of hands of those who wore bifocals and it looked to me that close to 1/2 of a fairly big room had their hands up. What are other books that use older people (esp.women) convincingly? 2) What difference do you think having an older woman made to the traditional tropes of first contact stories? I'm thinking of LeGuin's essay back in the 70s when she suggested that the best envoy of the human race to go with a ship of aliens was a post-menopausal woman. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:30:28 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Roxanne Korpal Subject: Re: BDG-Remnant Population In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000417123304.007dc210@oregon.uoregon.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am a big fan of Tara K. Harper and Anne McCaffrey. While the early Pern books (9th pass series) has young people, near the end they are still major characters, if not the main characters. One of the most beloved characters of all the Pern books, Master Robinton, was seen as 'old' throughout much of the series, until his own book was published not 2 years ago. In Tara K. Harper's Wolfwalker series, a very big side character, who plays a prominent role in all three of the first three original books, is 'old'. Gamon is his name. Look for him if you read the series. Now i'm sure side characters wasn't quite what you were looking for. I'm sure that's not all you'll be able to find out there. But it is a natural role, one of many that older people take up. I hope you are successful in your search. I can't wait to learn what else is out there to answer your question. Roxanne http://www.its.ilstu.edu/rmkorpa > I am interested in the topic of older people in SF--non-enhanced normally > aging people. I appreciate the references to some examples that have been > mentioned. Why do you think older people are infrequent in SF--are we > still caught up in our past-- > SF as adventure? Are editors and authors still thinking of the audience as > the younger more predominatly male as was once thought (even though that is > being questioned not even for the pulp mags)? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:10:52 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Next round of selected books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Thanks to all who nominated and voted in this selection round, and especially to Terri and Petra for counting votes and maintaining the nominations list, respectively. Since we got a late start on this round, we will skip next month and resume in June. Here are the selections for June through September, with the date that discussion begins. These are in alpha order by title. June 5: Jewelle Gomez: The Gilda Stories. July 3: Emma Donoghue: Kissing the Witch August 7: Constance Ash (Editor): Not of Woman Born September 4: Sheri S. Tepper: Singer from the Sea If you need ordering info such as ISBN etc, please refer to the nomination list at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/bdg_nom_0400.htm It's interesting and gratifying to see such continuing interest in these discussions. We had almost fifty people vote this time around, and many of the names were familiar. Since the discussions have been a little sparse lately, I was worried that there was not as much interest... since you are all still around, hopefully these next books will encourage you to stay around and even join in the discussion. Note that of course this list is for more than just these organized discussions! If you want to do something organized next month, please feel free to suggest books to discuss. One possibility is the book that tied for fourth place and lost out on this round in the coin toss: Nicola Griffith and Stephen Pagel (eds.): Bending the Landscape. Of course, it's relatively new so it might be better to give more people a chance to read it. Other books with significant interest that have been out awhile are Glory Season and Bite the Sun. Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:50:54 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: BDG selected books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Once we finish unpacking and settling in to the new store, these should all be available at the usual FEMSF discount. I don't think MG has any signed GILDA STORIES remaining from Jewelle's visit, but I could be wrong... June 5: Jewelle Gomez: The Gilda Stories. July 3: Emma Donoghue: Kissing the Witch August 7: Constance Ash (Editor): Not of Woman Born September 4: Sheri S. Tepper: Singer from the Sea Pax, Maryelizabeth -- Maryelizabeth Hart Publicity Manager ****************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd., #302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ****************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:23:42 -0400 Reply-To: Amy Harlib Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: Stiffed by Susan Faludi book review Comments: cc: "WomensFantasyScifi-owner@egroups.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is a review that, although it is of a non-fiction book, has content which I hope will be of interest to this listgroup. Thank you for your attention. Amy -- Amy Harlib aharlib@worldnet.att.net Stiffed: The Betrayal of the American Man by Susan Faludi (William Morrow Co., NY, Oct. 99, $26.00, hardcover, ISBN# B-688-12299-X ) In this ground-breaking sudy of the contemporary 'male crisis', award-winning journalist and author Faludi cements her reputation first gained in Backlash (1991), as a most astute analyst of gender relations. Her goal is to find out why men in today's USA are unhappy, angry, bewildered, and all too often violent. The author skewers conventional wisdom that suggests that either men must change their individual natures to overcome this crisis or that men are the victims of the undeserving, scheming feminists, affirmative action proponents, and job-grabbing illegal aliens. Faludi arrives at a different conclusion by dint of spending time with men---laid-off industrial workers, bewildered Vietnam vets, sports fans, media executives, Promise Keepers, porn stars, ex-cons, movie stars, and others---chronicling their thoughts, aspirations, explanations, and exasperations, finding that men are not to blame for their current predicament, nor on the whole is some sinister other. Rather, culture and society has betrayed American men of the post-World War II world, this being documented in meticulous detail with extensive notes and bibliography. Faludi shows how, taught by fathers to assume inheritance of a world they would firmly control, it turns out they don't control it at all and there is an overwhelming sense of parental abandonment. Meaningful work that both established and existed within a wider social purpose is gone for all but a few. The virtues of trust and loyalty are now laughable anachronisms, all that is left of masculinity being an ornamental facade of what Faludi terms individual male 'superdominance'. The author depicts how we have changed fundamentally from a society that produced a culture to a culture rooted in no real society at all, global corporatism sweeping away institutions on which men felt some sense of belonging and replacing them with visual spectacles that they can only watch while constantly being bombarded by advertisements to buy consumer goods to fill the void. Loss of economic authority, devaluation of loyalty, their father's silence and the elevation of the ornamental as the standard of personal worth lie at the heart of men's discontent and men have not rebelled because no simple enemy is responsible. But that, for Faludi, offers hope in a conclusion that men and women have an opportunity to move beyond an adversarial relationship to create change together, to create a new paradigm for human progress that will open doors for both sexes as they fight the dilemma of mutually being powerless in a modern, corporate-dominated society. Stiffed is a major reassessment of what it is to be a man in modern America. Lucidly, compassionately written, this is brilliant stuff, cutting through nonsense, allowing men to speak for themselves and taking from their words original and sympathetic insights. Provocative, sure to stimulate important dialogues, Stiffed is, despite its monumental size, enthralling to read, brimming with edifying content---essential reading for people of all sexes. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:23:01 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marcie McCauley Organization: @Home Network Subject: BDG: Remnant Population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! Petra writes: "IMO the best part is when Ofelia is alone on the planet and has to adjust, it reminded my of _The Wall_ by Marlen Haushofer (which interestingly Elizabeth Moon cites in a preface), but I think the inner thoughts and development of the woman cut off from all other people was told much better there (in _The Wall_ I mean)." That was the part of the book that I most enjoyed as well. Stories about women adapting to challenging circumstances, surviving and thriving, are tremendously inspiring. Like Hegland's _Into the Forest_, Harpman's _I Who Have Never Known Men_, later chapters of Gearhart's _Wanderground_, though of course Ofelia is completely alone. I'm not familiar with the Haushofer novel but having read the description of it on-line I shall have to track it down (through my favourite independent bookseller of course). Stacey writes: "I agree. Ofelia's adjustment to living alone and slowly rediscovering her true self is by far the best part of the book. Even though the "aliens" turned out to be interesting, I think I would have liked the book a lot more if the author had left out the alien encounter and the return to the planet by humans." While I enjoyed the chronicle of Ofelia's adjustment, I also found the aliens fascinating and appreciated Moon's brief attempt to get inside their heads to reveal their intelligence and impressions of Ofelia, their wondering whether she is actually communicating with them or simply making noises, debating over whether she has something to teach them, exactly what Ofelia herself is wondering about them. I was going to say that I wish the story hadn't included the humans returning to the planet but then again all the characters would have wished that too even though Ofelia knew it was inevitable once they discovered that a human presence remained with the creatures in the Company's abandoned settlement. So perhaps this section was intentionally discomfiting. I haven't read anything else of Moon's to know whether she would have been painting in broad strokes to wrap up a runaway plot or whether she was reminding the reader that this is Ofelia's story, Ofelia's annoyance, Ofelia's disappointment, Ofelia's dismissal. As Sharon writes, "I think that from Ofelia's eyes, nearly everybody would come up wanting", and Liz, in saying that she feels she's becoming more like Ofelia, "I'm less inclined to think that I've missed something, and more inclined to think "they" have missed the essentials." Jane recommends Delaney's 'The tale of Old Venn' which "has as it's major character an old woman, who is both dynamic and intelligent." I'll have to make a point of finding this one as well. In trying to come up with older women in the specfic I've read, I can only think of Maya in _The Fifth Sacred Thing_, the older Morgaine in Bradley's _Mists of Avalon_, the elder in Yolen's _Sister Light, Sister Dark_, and the woman in the cage in _Black Wine_. Moon's narrative is refreshing in affording Ofelia centre stage but these other characters are pivotal characters even if they're not in every scene. Marcie, game for _Bending the Landscape_ for May, or whatever else is agreed upon for that matter ;) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:13:18 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: Older people in SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Margaret McBride wrote: >I am interested in the topic of older people in SF--non-enhanced normally >aging people. I appreciate the references to some examples that have been >mentioned. Why do you think older people are infrequent in SF--are we >still caught up in our past SF as adventure? Just some vague thoughts the subject: There are problems with older people as the central character in fiction generally; but I don't think it is for ageist reasons - if anything it is exactly the opposite. In a story, ideally, the hero/heroine develops during the course of the book, and finishes as a more mature personality than the one who started. Of course, older people in real life still have internal problems to resolve, but if a fictional character is seen to be a slow developer it will be hard to stop the reader losing their respect for the character, and usually a writer wants the central character to be admired and/or liked by the reader. Therefore, if you have an older protagonist you have to explain how they reached mature years without overcoming the internal conflicts long before. In Remnant Population, Moon has to go to some length to explain the repressive family structure that held Ofelia back. This is why older characters are usually restricted to the role of 'wise councillor to the developing hero'. It is significant that the main genre I can think of where the main character does not develop during the course of the book is the murder-mystery. In this an author can keep a detective fundamentally unchanged through dozens of sequels. And this is where you find Agatha Christie's Miss Marple - probably the most successful older female lead in all fiction. Jane ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:44:54 +1200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jenny Rankine Subject: Men as feminist authors #2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I forgot to reply to Michael Morrison in my first post on this topic. Michael uses the words "propagandistic", "tract", "lecture" and "polemicize" to refer to additional meanings for feminist authorship beyoung the inclusion of a fully human female protagonist. Those terms are derogatory and belong to a stereotype of feminist writers as shrill hacks who can only write cardboard characters who mouth their author's pet ideology. I would have thought the books and writers we have been discussing for several years would have demolished that stereotype well and truly. Jenny Rankine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:49:19 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kathleen Friello Subject: Re: Older people in SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/19/00 2:14:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jane.fletcher@VIRGIN.NET writes: << There are problems with older people as the central character in fiction generally; but I don't think it is for ageist reasons - if anything it is exactly the opposite. In a story, ideally, the hero/heroine develops during the course of the book, and finishes as a more mature personality than the one who started. >> But if a good writer presents a well-developed and communicative character, the wonderful flavors and results of internal brewing over time can come through with a minimum of step-by-step development-- Stephen Maturin in Patrick O'Brian's novels comes to mind. And development and change continues throughout life. Sylvia Townsend Warner's Lolly Willows didn't really bloom until middle age, when she left her stuffy brother's house and moved into the wilds. And Charnas in Dorthea Dreams has an older woman and man as main characters, and (as I remember it) with some tension in using what they've learned vs. what they're learning. The "journey" through early experience does seem to be a (by now, grindingly trite) trope in sf/f -- all those damned 17-year-olds learning social skills in Cherryh novels -- I don't know if this is due more to marketing strategies or lack of imagination. I think it might be both: but defying these limitations as recurring older main characters in commercially successful sf/f are Terry Pratchett's witches. And Death. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:10:53 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kathleen Friello Subject: Re: Older people in SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/19/00 2:14:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jane.fletcher@VIRGIN.NET writes: << e. I appreciate the references to some examples that have been >mentioned. Why do you think older people are infrequent in SF--are we >still caught up in our past SF as adventure? >> [In addition to my other mess.] Even the elderly can still adventure (in their final exploits, the Musketeers were in their sixties; and Don Quixote was no spring chicken). But these are books from another time and, although fantastic, not sf. Is it a general ick factor shared by this audience and the authors? Action and sex, sex especially, for older characters and most most especially for older women seem to be tough to make appealing. [sociocultural & aesthetic conditioning?] But you'd think that in a field traditionally driven by problem-solving and wish fulfillment we'd find more exploration here. Where are the cyberspace Miss Marples and Mae Wests, the Waldo troopers, Viagra, for chrissakes (reality seems to have jumped the gun on sf there)? Don't we want to think about that part of our lives? Or has our idea of the "limitations" and even the definition of old age changed, too, so we're still seeing ourselves/the writers are still seeing themselves in youngish to middle-aged heros? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:41:38 -0500 Reply-To: quiltedpoetry@att.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Liz Bennefeld Subject: Re: Older people in SF In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I read a nice (genre classification: paranormal mystery) book with older characters that I thought were realistically portrayed. It's an e- book by Marilyn Dalla Valle called Murder in Mystic (available at http://www.zeus-publications.com -- I think that's them). I believe that it almost always takes an older author to write realistically from that perspective. Perhaps, in a youth-oriented culture, older people are indulging in more denial than previously. Elizabeth On 20 Apr 00, at 12:10, Kathleen Friello wrote: >. . . > Action and sex, sex especially, for older characters and most most > especially for older women seem to be tough to make appealing. > [sociocultural & aesthetic conditioning?] But you'd think that in a > field traditionally driven by problem-solving and wish fulfillment > we'd find more exploration here. Where are the cyberspace Miss Marples > and Mae Wests, the Waldo troopers, Viagra, for chrissakes (reality > seems to have jumped the gun on sf there)? Don't we want to think > about that part of our lives? Or has our idea of the "limitations" > and even the definition of old age changed, too, so we're still seeing > ourselves/the writers are still seeing themselves in youngish to > middle-aged heros? -- E. W. Bennefeld Freelance Writer, Editor, and Academic Style Editor Since 1984 d.b.a. The Written Word QuiltedPoetry@att.net http://TheWrittenWord.home.att.net http://www.PatchworkProse.com "The antithesis of altruism is nihilism." -- E. Wicker ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:48:41 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Frances Subject: Re: Older people in SF One of the pleasures of Sheri Tepper is the old women. Frances ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:23:21 -0400 Reply-To: feldsipe@erols.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: feldsipe Organization: or Lack Thereof Subject: Re: Older people in SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think the 'adventures of the elderly' are often percieved/presented as 'cuter' or more poigniant than younger folk who can breeze through dragon slaying or whatever without breaking a hip. It's tough to be a hero when you're all rickety and cranky. ;> Hoping to see a LOT of folks at Balticon this weekend! Suze/Severna Kathleen Friello wrote: > In a message dated 4/19/00 2:14:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jane.fletcher@VIRGIN.NET writes: > > << e. I appreciate the references to some examples that have been > >mentioned. Why do you think older people are infrequent in SF--are we > >still caught up in our past SF as adventure? >> > > [In addition to my other mess.] > > Even the elderly can still adventure (in their final exploits, the Musketeers > were in their sixties; and Don Quixote was no spring chicken). But these are > books from another time and, although fantastic, not sf. > > Is it a general ick factor shared by this audience and the authors? > > Action and sex, sex especially, for older characters and most most especially > for older women seem to be tough to make appealing. [sociocultural & > aesthetic conditioning?] But you'd think that in a field traditionally driven > by problem-solving and wish fulfillment we'd find more exploration here. > Where are the cyberspace Miss Marples and Mae Wests, the Waldo troopers, > Viagra, for chrissakes (reality seems to have jumped the gun on sf there)? > Don't we want to think about that part of our lives? Or has our idea of the > "limitations" and even the definition of old age changed, too, so we're > still seeing ourselves/the writers are still seeing themselves in youngish to > middle-aged heros?