From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:49:00 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:32 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0101D" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 11:34:44 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Nomination period CLOSED MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The nomination period is over. Thank you to all nominators for making these wonderful suggestions. The comments of the nominators can be looked up at http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/bdg_nom_0101.htm Concerning _Illicit Passage_: I left it in the list. It will be a bit more difficult than usual to get this book but Julieanne (and Maryelizabeth) have agreed to organize the supply. So, if a majority of people vote for it they know that it will take an extra effort and they are then obviously ready to take it. Voting will be handled by Terri Wakefield . She will send an email explaining the procedure. Please don't send your votes to the list. Have a nice time deciding Petra Final nominations (14): Dorothy Bryant: The Kin of Ata Are Waiting for You. List Price: $11.95, Paperback Reprint edition (April 1997), Random House (Paper); ISBN: 0679778438 Octavia Butler: Lilith's Brood. Published by Warner Books - ISBN: 0446676101, retail price: 13.95 Keith Hartman: The Gumshoe, the Witch, and the Virtual Corpse. Meisha Merlin Publishing; ISBN: 1892065053; List Price $16.00 Nancy Kress: Beggars in Spain. Mass Market Paperback Reprint edition (March 1994), Avon; ISBN: 0380718774, $6.99US, also available as audio cassette Ursula K. Le Guin, Todd Barton, Margaret Chodos-Irvine, geor Hersh: Always Coming Home (California Fiction). Amazon Price: $14.95, Paperback - 525 pages (February 5, 2001), Univ California Press; ISBN: 0520227352. This item will be published on February 5, 2001. Elizabeth A. Lynn: The Northern Girl. 470 pages, ISBN: 0441007279, List Price: $14 Louise Marley: The Terrorists of Irustan. List Price: $5.99, ISBN: 0441007430 Sharyn McCrumb: Bimbos of the Death Sun. List Price: $5.99, Mass Market Paperback - 212 pages, Reprint edition (February 1997), Ballantine Books; ISBN: 034541215X Maureen F. McHugh: Mission Child. List Price: $6.99, Mass Market Paperback - 370 pages (November 9, 1999), Eos (Mass MMarket); ISBN: 0380791226 (UK edition Orbit, ISBN 1- 85723-861- 3, paperback 6.99 GBP) Vonda N. McIntyre: The Moon and the Sun. List Price: $6.99, Mass Market Paperback - 496 pages (September 1998), Pocket Books; ISBN: 0671567667 Pat Murphy: The Falling Woman. List Price: $11.95, Paperback, Reprint edition (August 1993), Tor Books; ISBN: 0312854064. First published in 1986. Alice Nunn: Illicit Passage. Trade paperback, 250 pages. J. Neil Schulman: The Rainbow Cadenza. List Price: $27.50, Paperback - 394 pages (July 1999), Unknown; ISBN: 15884451238 Virginia Woolf: Orlando : A Biography. Paperback (December 1999), Wordsworth Edition; ISBN: 1853262390, $4.95 Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:07:25 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Terri Subject: BDG Voting Comments: cc: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi Everyone! Please send your votes for your FOUR (4) choices for the next BDG group read to me at...... not to the list!! You should receive a reply from me within 24 hours that I have received your votes. If you do not receive a confirmation from me, please let me know. We don't want anyone's votes to be lost in cyber space! :o) The voting period is from now until midnight, January 29th, USA, EST. The winners will be announced on Tues. Jan. 30th. Everyone please vote. Last selection period was so close it wasn't apparent until the very last moment which nominations were the winners! Your votes do count, (unlike in the USA presidential election ). The nominated books are listed below. Thanks! Terri Wakefield Final nominations (14): Dorothy Bryant: The Kin of Ata Are Waiting for You. List Price: $11.95, Paperback Reprint edition (April 1997), Random House (Paper); ISBN: 0679778438 Octavia Butler: Lilith's Brood. Published by Warner Books - ISBN: 0446676101, retail price: 13.95 Keith Hartman: The Gumshoe, the Witch, and the Virtual Corpse. Meisha Merlin Publishing; ISBN: 1892065053; List Price $16.00 Nancy Kress: Beggars in Spain. Mass Market Paperback Reprint edition (March 1994), Avon; ISBN: 0380718774, $6.99US, also available as audio cassette Ursula K. Le Guin, Todd Barton, Margaret Chodos-Irvine, George Hersh: Always Coming Home (California Fiction). Amazon Price: $14.95, Paperback - 525 pages (February 5, 2001), Univ California Press; ISBN: 0520227352. This item will be published on February 5, 2001. Elizabeth A. Lynn: The Northern Girl. 470 pages, ISBN: 0441007279, List Price: $14 Louise Marley: The Terrorists of Irustan. List Price: $5.99, ISBN: 0441007430 Sharyn McCrumb: Bimbos of the Death Sun. List Price: $5.99, Mass Market Paperback - 212 pages, Reprint edition (February 1997), Ballantine Books; ISBN: 034541215X Maureen F. McHugh: Mission Child. List Price: $6.99, Mass Market Paperback - 370 pages (November 9, 1999), Eos (Mass MMarket); ISBN: 0380791226 (UK edition Orbit, ISBN 1- 85723-861- 3, paperback 6.99 GBP) Vonda N. McIntyre: The Moon and the Sun. List Price: $6.99, Mass Market Paperback - 496 pages (September 1998), Pocket Books; ISBN: 0671567667 Pat Murphy: The Falling Woman. List Price: $11.95, Paperback, Reprint edition (August 1993), Tor Books; ISBN: 0312854064. First published in 1986. Alice Nunn: Illicit Passage. Trade paperback, 250 pages. J. Neil Schulman: The Rainbow Cadenza. List Price: $27.50, Paperback - 394 pages (July 1999), Unknown; ISBN: 15884451238 Virginia Woolf: Orlando : A Biography. Paperback (December 1999), Wordsworth Edition; ISBN: 1853262390, $4.95 ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:02:11 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: BIMBOS OF THE DEATH SUN: Hart In-Reply-To: <20010117233251.I23003@canolog.ninthwonder.com> from "Allen Briggs" at Jan 17, 2001 11:32:51 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Briggs writes: > >> focusing on stereotypes within the fannish community and then >> depicting those stereotypes at their very worst -- feels *mean* to me. > >This is, IMO, how stereotypes are often deconstructed. It seems >to me that much literature, perhaps especially some types of feminist >sf and other literature that struggles against the norm, is about >taking, exaggerating, and then dismantling stereotypes. In Bimbos, >the author is (obviously) very familiar with the fan community >(IIRC, she was part of the fan community), and so I saw a lot of >very accurate (but exaggerated) stereotypes. That's one of the >things that I found very funny--I recognised myself and people that >I know in some of the roles. I didn't feel that it was mean-spirited, >but I can certainly see how people might feel that way. > >How is this materially different from, say, Tepper deconstructing the >stereotypical testosterone-sloshed Guy in _Gate to Women's Country_? It's been almost ten years since I read _Gate_, and something like two or three since I read _Bimbos_, so this may be rather fuzzy around the edges. However, _Bimbos_ is so *tonally* different from _Gate_ that I have a hard time comparing the two. If every single man in _Gate_ was presented as being a Guy, then I might see it as being more like _Bimbos_ -- but I also probably wouldn't have found the novel as thought-provoking as I did. It was the fact that men were presented who weren't stereotypes, and that the men who *were* stereotypes could (rarely) be related to in other ways... that's what made _Gate_ work for me. _Bimbos_, OTOH, seemed to be much more about taking a set of stereotypes and talking about how stupid they were, without going into the sort of depth that _Gate_ did. I never got the sense that these were *real* people, or that the book was anything other than an exercise in nasty cleverness by the author. So. I don't know if a tonal difference is sufficiently material. Maybe I just don't like satire? -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:23:46 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: BIMBOS OF THE DEATH SUN: Hart Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I realize it's difficult to compare _Bimbos_ to _Gate_. It's been quite a while since I read either of them, and I don't know either of the authors (although I've seen McCrumb at a couple of local book signings). I don't recall _Bimbos_ criticising all of fandom, although different stereotypes are picked on. Just as Tepper has men who are not in the army life, McCrumb has fans who are not stereotypes. Of course, my memory might be faulty--I could easily have just assumed that they were there in the background... If so, I apologize. I need to go back and reread both of them now. I just sort of picked _Gate_ out because of its relatively clear division based on something. I seem to recall feeling many more negative vibes coming off of _Gate_ because I seem to recall there being very little choice about where you end up. In _Bimbos_, people are who they are. The author is taking potshots at stereotypes, but they are at least stereotypes of what people choose to be. In _Gate_, the division of people is based on an "accident" of birth, IIRC. I forget how we end up with the men who are not part of the army culture, though... > So. I don't know if a tonal difference is sufficiently material. Maybe > I just don't like satire? I don't know if I'd say that. I think _Gate_ is also satire. It's not comical satire, though, where I think _Bimbos_ is. FWIW, I think that most of what _Bimbos_ satirizes is behavior that is both OK and fun, but also silly and funny (which is part of what makes it fun ;-). Anyway, I'll go off and reread at least _Bimbos_ now and put _Gate_ on the stack for post-_Cryptonomicon_ reading... -allen ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 11:45:45 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: book suggestions? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My store book group is interested in doing some discussions of first contact type novels, and after 8 years I am having a hard time coming up with anything which is worthwhile, and we haven't already read. We just recently read REMNANT POPULATION, for example. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. We are hoping to extend this theme in fantasy and horror as well as SF .. so books with first encounters with magical critters and/or monsters are also useful. Thanks, y'all. Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:43:22 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: book suggestions?: M'e (first round) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" sf: HARD LANDING by Algis Budrys horror: the ANNO DRACULA series by Kim Newman fantasy: THE MOON'S WIFE (good luck finding it) or perhaps KINGDOM OF THE GRAIL (less difficult, but possibly OP) by A. A. Attanasio -----Original Message----- From: Maryelizabeth Hart [mailto:publicity@MYSTGALAXY.COM] My store book group is interested in doing some discussions of first contact type novels, and after 8 years I am having a hard time coming up with anything which is worthwhile, and we haven't already read. We just recently read REMNANT POPULATION, for example. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. We are hoping to extend this theme in fantasy and horror as well as SF .. so books with first encounters with magical critters and/or monsters are also useful. Thanks, y'all. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:13:39 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Frances Subject: Re: book suggestions? First contact Possibly "Fresco"? Frances ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:56:10 -0600 Reply-To: rudyleon@earthlink.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rudy Leon Subject: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello all! I haven't been following too much of the flurry of posts lately, but the one looking for male feminist writers which provoked a response of David Brin has left me thinking a lot about what makes a feminist book. I've been slow to respond, because I can't recall in detail why I so very much hated Glory Season, but that it struck me as anti-feminist -- I think there was something about the ending that I felt subverted any potential for feminism??? (Plus, maybe one should never interact with authors while reading their books....) Brin had said he wrote this one because he wanted to prove that a man could write a feminist utopia. Following that statement, he rejected anyone's criticism, on that particular list, which pointed out non-feminist and anti-feminist aspects of his book as flat wrong because he said so.... SO, I've been scratching my head over Brin and male Feminist SF, and reading Tiptree's _Brightness Falls from the Air_, which I've just finished. Really interesting book, although there's some stylistic pedanticism which reminds me _Herland_, and I love that the book has acknowledgments to Dr. Racoona Sheldon! So: to the point: I would have a very hard time calling this book feminist, or at least pointing specifically categorical feminist aspects to it. But I think it's a feminist book. There are details in this picture of the future that are compassionate and tolerant, and non-militaristic. Women have positions of power available to them. All the main actors are men. The women get to be more than beautiful (although, they are all beautiful). There are gay men, and powerful depictions of a variety of ages in really unusual ways. But what may be the deciding factor for me may be the decidedly unquantifiable quality of /I didn't cringe when I read it/. And on those grounds, Brin (at least, the only Brin I've read) doesn't even come close. And, if _Postman_ the book is anything akin to _Postman_ the movie (which I've not read, and which movie made my Never To Be Seen list when a 16 year old clerk at the video store described it as I Am Fertile Man, Let Me Impregnate You....) I have no desire to read the rest of his stuff... SO, I'm not saying no man can write feminist work ( I like DeLint and Guy Gavriel Kay and haven't read much else that might qualify), but I want to question the placement of Brin as such, even if based only my No Squerk response. And I'd love to talk about Brightness, it's my first Tiptree, and I was all OK with the pedantic style until just this second when I checked the copyright -- 1985??? I thought Tiptree went *wayyyy* further back than that.... Just $.02, I guess And, Mary Elizabeth, I think it might be interesting to look at Tiptree's Brightness with an eye towards first contact themes -- at least it deals with the negative fallout of very bad first contacts.... "A desire for knowledge for its own sake, a love of justice that borders on fanaticism, and a stirring for personal independence --these are the aspects of the Jewish people's tradition that allow me to regard my belonging to it as a gift of great fortune. Those who today rage against the ideas of reason and individual freedom and who seek by means of brutal force to bring about a vapid state-slavery are justified in perceiving us as their implacable enemies." --Albert Einstein from the Holocaust Memorial Museum, ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:41:16 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Deborah A. Oosterhouse" Subject: Re: BIMBOS OF THE DEATH SUN: Hart MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WARNING!!! Spoilers below for *Gate to Women's County* by Tepper!! (I hope I've included enough space here!) Allen Briggs wrote: > In _Gate_, the division of people is based on an "accident" of birth, > IIRC. I forget how we end up with the men who are not part of the army > culture, though... Perhaps this is what you had in mind when you put the quotation marks around "accident", but the births of the people in *Gate* are not an accident at all. The medical workers in the cities were doing deliberate genetic planning of the population while making the soldiers think that they were the ones fathering children. In reality, only the sperm cells of the empathic/telepathic men were being used to impregnate the women in the cities. The theory was that after many generations, the fighting men would be bred completely away. I haven't read anything by McCrumb, so I can't comment on that side of the question. Deborah ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:41:13 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:56:10 CST." <3A6C581A.15273.172B792@localhost> I too disliked _Glory Season_ tremendously, and I can remember a few of the reasons why. 1. The presentation of the matriarchal society was such that at the end, we saw the error of their ways. They were sexist and stereotyped and it made them foolish. It's common to set up a utopia and then write from the point of view of someone who doesn't fit in, perhaps because no one can truly imagine a feasible utopia (or we'd have done it by now!). But I felt that Brin wasn't, in the end, sympathetic to his characters, that he saw their world as a failed experiment. 2. The insemination as necessary part of parthenogenesis. Brin explains at length that scientific evidence required him to introduce this feature, because otherwise his science would be inaccurate. This is a fine line to walk in science fiction, I know, but surely one could postulate a few more advances that would render men unnecessary, as he had originally planned? Suzy McKee Charnas managed. High squick factor for me; it seemed to undercut all the ideas of female self-sustainability. 3. The ending strongly implies that the matriarchal, basically all-female society can exist only by refusing innovative thought and forward progress; it's a stale, restrictive, infertile society. 4. The whiny, whiny afterword (or was it actually a foreword in my edition?), in which he complained at length about how those feminists wouldn't think anything was feminist if it was written by a man, damn them. And those mean repressive people wouldn't let him be considered for a Tiptree, either, because he was a man. Looking back at all of this, I think it could be summarized as: Brin decided to write a feminist utopia, came up with an idea, and let it unfold. In the process, the idea became more and more interesting and the feminism sort of fell out the bottom, became negative, became secondary, didn't tell the story he wanted to tell. It feels like he didn't have feminist ideas to write about; he just wanted to write a feminist book (TM). I'd be interested in hearing other views; I thought the book was very interesting in many ways, but my gut reaction in the end was that all the feminist ideals were painfully subverted. I've liked some of his other books much more. Jessie >>>> Hello all! I haven't been following too much of the flurry of posts lately, but the one looking for male feminist writers which provoked a response of David Brin has left me thinking a lot about what makes a feminist book. I've been slow to respond, because I can't recall in detail why I so very much hated Glory Season, but that it struck me as anti-feminist -- I think there was something about the ending that I felt subverted any potential for feminism??? (Plus, maybe one should never interact with authors while reading their books....) Brin had said he wrote this one because he wanted to prove that a man could write a feminist utopia. Following that statement, he rejected anyone's criticism, on that particular list, which pointed out non-feminist and anti-feminist aspects of his book as flat wrong because he said so.... ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:16:38 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Susan Hericks Subject: Re: book suggestions? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _The Word for World is Forest_ by Leguin comes to mind. Susan -----Original Message----- From: Maryelizabeth Hart To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Monday, January 22, 2001 1:44 PM Subject: [*FSF-L*] book suggestions? >My store book group is interested in doing some discussions of first >contact type novels, and after 8 years I am having a hard time coming up >with anything which is worthwhile, and we haven't already read. We just >recently read REMNANT POPULATION, for example. Any help or suggestions >would be appreciated. We are hoping to extend this theme in fantasy and >horror as well as SF .. so books with first encounters with magical >critters and/or monsters are also useful. > >Thanks, y'all. > >Maryelizabeth > > >-- >******************************************************************* >Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 >7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 >San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 >http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: >mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com > >******************************************************************* > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:39:27 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Margaret McBride Subject: Re: book suggestions? In-Reply-To: <3A6C8DE9.B073F00D@mystgalaxy.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:45 AM 1/22/01 -0800, you wrote: >My store book group is interested in doing some discussions of first >contact type novels, and after 8 years I am having a hard time coming up I don't know what you've read but I like Amy Thomson's Color of Distance very much. Others that would seem to fit your description are A Woman of the Iron People and Ring of Swords by Arnason(unfortunately not in print)and The Sparrow by Russell. An interesting short story is "Face Value" in Karen Fowler's Artificial Things. An interesting side aspect is Brunner's Total Eclipse where the humans are trying to figure out the aliens through anthropology. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:01:48 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin In-Reply-To: <3A6C581A.15273.172B792@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Rudy Leon wrote: >SO, I've been scratching my head over Brin and male Feminist SF, >and reading Tiptree's _Brightness Falls from the Air_, which I've >just finished. Really interesting book, although there's some >stylistic pedanticism which reminds me _Herland_, and I love that >the book has acknowledgments to Dr. Racoona Sheldon! Have you ever read the Silverberg introduction to UP THE WALLS OF THE WORLD in which he calls Tiptree's writing "ineluctably masculine"? I don't know how many people on this list will remember the major debates that took place over Tiptree before HER gender was revealed; Alice Sheldon published several pieces on the whole hoo-hah over her gender, her pseudonym, and the downfall. Lots of people at the time, as I recall, claimed that Tiptree was sexist (when they thought he was a man), and anti-feminist (when they found out she was a woman). Interesting stuff to look at. I remember liking all of Tiptree AND Sheldon's (her other pseudonym) work at the time...but she was a very controversial figure. Her fiction is still extremely disturbing, so dark in so many ways, with no sense of any way out. Powerful stuff, and she's a brilliant stylist, but dark. >So: to the point: I would have a very hard time calling this book >feminist, or at least pointing specifically categorical feminist >aspects to it....I didn't cringe when I read it/. What I keep saying: there is no such thing as a "feminist book" (unless you think you can reduce something as complex as feminist movements to a formula); different readers will react very differently to the same work. As the debate over Tiptree showed. >And on those grounds, Brin (at least, the only Brin I've read) >doesn't even come close. And, if _Postman_ the book is anything >akin to _Postman_ the movie (which I've not read, and which movie I doubt seriously the book is like the film (which I haven't seen and won't see), but I can categorically state that I think the POSTMAN is Brin's weakest novel (except maybe his first one), it's not one I bother to reread ever, nor would I recommend it. His UPLIFT series novels are much more interesting and worth the read and have (as far as I'm concerned) some strong portrayals of female characters (if that is "feminist," then I'd consider Brin's work has some feminist elements -- I'll talk about GLORY SEASON when I respond to the later post). >made my Never To Be Seen list when a 16 year old clerk at the >video store described it as I Am Fertile Man, Let Me Impregnate >You....) I have no desire to read the rest of his stuff... > >SO, I'm not saying no man can write feminist work ( I like DeLint >and Guy Gavriel Kay Love de Lint, hate, loathe, despise and got rid of the Kay novels and never tried another one. The rape scenes, woman impregnanted, child of dark god, love of said child, blecch. Made me ill. And somehow his other elements just seemed too derivative. >and haven't read much else that might >qualify), but I want to question the placement of Brin as such, even >if based only my No Squerk response. And I'd love to talk about >Brightness, it's my first Tiptree, and I was all OK with the pedantic >style until just this second when I checked the copyright -- >1985??? I thought Tiptree went *wayyyy* further back than that.... She does. Check whether it's the first printing or not. I haven't read BRIGHTNESS in some years (ditto for a lot of Tiptree), so I cannot really speak to it. Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:20:29 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: thoughts on Tiptree: Reid after Leon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Also good, if less embarrassing in retrospect, is Harlan Ellison's introduction to "Tiptree"'s item in AGAIN, DANGEROUS VISIONS (as I recall, he suggests Kate Wilhelm is the woman to watch in the near future, Tiptree the man). "Racoona" was Alice Sheldon's nickname, apparently, more than her penname per se. Sheldon first published as Tiptree in the latter '60s, I'd guess w/o looking it up ca. '67 in GALAXY or WORLDS OF IF magazines. But BRIGHTNESS FALLS FROM THE AIR was one of the last books of hers to appear before her suicide, iinm, in the mid '80s. TM -----Original Message----- From: Robin Reid [mailto:Robin_Reid@TAMU-COMMERCE.EDU] >Rudy Leon wrote: >SO, I've been scratching my head over Brin and male Feminist SF, >and reading Tiptree's _Brightness Falls from the Air_, which I've >just finished. Really interesting book, although there's some >stylistic pedanticism which reminds me _Herland_, and I love that >the book has acknowledgments to Dr. Racoona Sheldon! Have you ever read the Silverberg introduction to UP THE WALLS OF THE WORLD in which he calls Tiptree's writing "ineluctably masculine"? Interesting stuff to look at. I remember liking all of Tiptree AND Sheldon's (her other pseudonym) work at the time...but she was a very controversial figure. Her fiction is still extremely disturbing, so dark in so many ways, with no sense of any way out. Powerful stuff, and she's a brilliant stylist, but dark. And I'd love to talk about >Brightness, it's my first Tiptree, and I was all OK with the pedantic >style until just this second when I checked the copyright -- >1985??? I thought Tiptree went *wayyyy* further back than that.... She does. Check whether it's the first printing or not. I haven't read BRIGHTNESS in some years (ditto for a lot of Tiptree), so I cannot really speak to it. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:40:45 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin In-Reply-To: <200101222241.RAA00270@dragon.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I picked up GLORY SEASON when it was first out, read it, and then did a presentation on it for an academic conference -- while the book is complex and may have some problematic areas, I did not dislike it and was rather intrigued with what Brin was doing. One reason I responded as I did is that I don't see it as a utopia although it is obviously drawing on some of the conventions of the seventies feminist utopias and critiquing some feminist ideas/philosophies that were embedded in those earlier works. Another is that by the time the novel came out (my presentation is dated 96, which means i probably got ahold of it in 95 or so), I'd been spending a lot of years reading feminist/womanist works by women of color which contain, among other things, a good deal of criticism of certain assumptions/constructions of seventies feminism which these women saw as racist and classist in nature. The seventies feminist utopias are not necessarily all "perfect," nor do all of them present women or cultures created by women as perfect. For one thing, with only one exception or perhaps two, all the seventies feminist utopias were peopled by, basically, white (middle class) women, often lesbian (not all feminist utopias are lesbian separatist, but quite a few are). A lot were trying to embed a certain approach to "power" (no hierarchy, go by consensus building) that was connected to feminist theory and approaches. A number of seventies feminists have written about some of the problems of trying to work under that system -- sort of yeah, it's great if it works but it always takes a hellacious amount of time, and even then, the people who talk fastest/best can "overrule" the others even if everybody is trying to be equal. Look at the seventies feminist utopias, and you don't see very much information on how society/government is structured. In terms of "race," the major exception to all-white futures (sometimes no mention is made of skin color or anything else which means it kind of defaults to 'white') is Marge Piercy's WOMAN ON THE EDGE OF TIME with a Chicana protagonist and a possible future in which "race" is no longer tied to culture; another possible exception is Dorothy Bryant's THE KIN OF ATA ARE WAITING FOR YOU, a novel which I've never seen as feminist or utopian -- in it, a white man is catapulted--car accident--into a primitive culture, coded as other than white even if skin color is never mentioned, and shown the error of his ways--I thought a major element of the text was exploitative and racist (basically, "white man taught better ways by tribal culture.") Joanna Russ' THE FEMALE MAN (far and away my total favorite) has a revelation in the middle where the assassin-self (Jael/Sweet Alice) tells the Whileaway self (Janet) that the utopian culture of Whileaway comes about NOT because a convenient plague killed all the men but because Jael's women in her timeline were able to win the war and kill off all the men. Janet does not deny it. There's also the fact that in Janet's WHileaway she has to track down anybody who wants to leave/not work and either bring them back or shoot them.....compared to Joanna's timeline or Jeannine's Whileaway has some great aspects, but it's not perfect in the sense that everybody's happy and supports the status quo. LeGuin's LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS has been critiqued by feminists and others on her use of the masculine pronoun and the fact that her protagonist, again, is a man -- her exploration of a society in which all individuals are neuter and become either functioning male or functioning female is still a fascinating one. She's often criticized for not completely dealing with what homosexuality might mean in her future society. Charnas -- I have to admit I only read the earlier two, need to read the latest two, and think more about it. I do know that her novels scared me -- I don't deny their power, but whoosh. "Like" is not a word I'd use. Admire, yes. However, as I remember her Riding Women needed horses to spark pregnancy, so "women" are not completely self-sufficient there -- although I guess an argument could be made that horses are better to have around than men! I think in some ways the "feminist utopia" (especially the lesbian utopia) concept did have major problems -- why did feminists quit writing utopias? This is a question I've asked elsewhere and really wonder about and haven't figured it out. In the eighties, the only two I know of are by Joan Sloaniciwiecz and Sheri Tepper (and Tepper's GATE has been roundly criticized because of her exclusion of lesbianism -- of course earlier lesbian separatist utopias excluded heterosexuality -- and everybody ignored the idea/concept of bisexuality). The other thing is: as far as I know, not a single utopia has ever been written that can truly show a "perfect" society. PLato's utopia has "slaves" so that the lucky intellectuals could sit around and think and not have to worry about washing the dishes.....the seventies feminist utopias addressed some issues important to seventies feminism in some fascinating ways, but could not include all women and all choices. And while seventies feminism was not as bad as some current and past critics paint it, it's true that ideals of sisterhood and equality among women could not be easily worked out in a society where racism (institutional and systemic racism, not just one person's bad feelings about another person) is so prevalent. I'm not sure these issues have been completely worked out today. I agree--the whole response to Tiptree, the stuff he wrote (and is still writing), and all that is depressing and yeah, whiny. But that's Brin the person. I read and liked GLORY SEASON before all that happened....and I do think the Tiptree group has its own focus/agenda, just as I think Brin does, and they're probably different. An on-going problem is people thinking that there's just ONE way to define feminist, or feminist sf (and amazingly enough it's usually their own personal definition). Sorry for the length--your post really got me thinking about my original reactions to this post, and my responses to the novel! Robin At 05:41 PM 01/22/2001 -0500, you wrote: >I too disliked _Glory Season_ tremendously, and I can remember a few of >the reasons why. > >1. The presentation of the matriarchal society was such that at the end, > we saw the error of their ways. They were sexist and stereotyped and > it made them foolish. It's common to set up a utopia and then write > from the point of view of someone who doesn't fit in, perhaps because > no one can truly imagine a feasible utopia (or we'd have done it by > now!). But I felt that Brin wasn't, in the end, sympathetic to his > characters, that he saw their world as a failed experiment. > >2. The insemination as necessary part of parthenogenesis. Brin explains > at length that scientific evidence required him to introduce this > feature, because otherwise his science would be inaccurate. This is a > fine line to walk in science fiction, I know, but surely one could > postulate a few more advances that would render men unnecessary, as > he had originally planned? Suzy McKee Charnas managed. High squick > factor for me; it seemed to undercut all the ideas of female > self-sustainability. > >3. The ending strongly implies that the matriarchal, basically > all-female society can exist only by refusing innovative thought and > forward progress; it's a stale, restrictive, infertile society. > >4. The whiny, whiny afterword (or was it actually a foreword in my > edition?), in which he complained at length about how those feminists > wouldn't think anything was feminist if it was written by a man, damn > them. And those mean repressive people wouldn't let him be considered > for a Tiptree, either, because he was a man. > >Looking back at all of this, I think it could be summarized as: > >Brin decided to write a feminist utopia, came up with an idea, and let >it unfold. In the process, the idea became more and more interesting and >the feminism sort of fell out the bottom, became negative, became >secondary, didn't tell the story he wanted to tell. It feels like he >didn't have feminist ideas to write about; he just wanted to write a >feminist book (TM). > >I'd be interested in hearing other views; I thought the book was very >interesting in many ways, but my gut reaction in the end was that all >the feminist ideals were painfully subverted. I've liked some of his >other books much more. > >Jessie > > > >>>> >Hello all! I haven't been following too much of the flurry of posts >lately, but the one looking for male feminist writers which provoked >a response of David Brin has left me thinking a lot about what >makes a feminist book. I've been slow to respond, because I can't >recall in detail why I so very much hated Glory Season, but that it >struck me as anti-feminist -- I think there was something about the >ending that I felt subverted any potential for feminism??? (Plus, >maybe one should never interact with authors while reading their >books....) Brin had said he wrote this one because he wanted to >prove that a man could write a feminist utopia. Following that >statement, he rejected anyone's criticism, on that particular list, >which pointed out non-feminist and anti-feminist aspects of his >book as flat wrong because he said so.... > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:29:41 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:40:45 CST." <4.2.0.58.20010122180155.00958700@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu> I won't quote all of Robin Reid's thoughtful post, but wanted to respond to a couple of points: Brin's response vs. the book. Yes, they're two different things, but the edition I read included several pages of his arguments; I know I read it before I read the book itself, and that probably colored my views. His complaints were mostly along the lines of "I am feminist, and therefore the so-called feminists who say I'm not are just power-hungry man-haters". I exaggerate, but if my memory's accurate I'm not distorting his message. It seemed so disrespectful--like a white American writing an American Indian utopia and then claiming the local tribe was bigoted and racist when they didn't approve of it. So I was not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. I was unclear about my objections to his protrayal of the utopia as incomplete, I think (running out of time this afternoon). The utopias or pseudo-utopias I've seen do generally show the utopia as flawed. Perhaps it's because that makes a better story, perhaps because it gives more freedom to explore the related issues, perhaps because if we could imagine a perfect world we'd be out there trying to make it. However, by and large I found Brin's utopia to be far less sympathetic than, say, Charnas or Tepper's flawed societies. I'm not sure how well I can pinpoint this, having lost a lot of details since I read the book, but it seemed that the people trying to maintain the status quo came across very negatively, concerned with their own power and prestige, and weren't working towards any greater goal. Tepper's ruling women, though they lied and tricked their people and deliberately caused the deaths of many, many men, were at least working towards a time when men and women could live peacefully and equally together. In the utopias I've found most thought-provoking, it's a member of the utopian society who realizes what's wrong. In _Glory Season_, much of the ending's impact comes from a man from outside who reveals the truth. Made me a little itchy. I suppose much of my problem with the story is that I didn't feel like we learned very much about gender, although the whole book seemed to be about it. Some straightforward role reversal (the bit about the sidesaddle was hilarious, don't get me wrong) and, I suppose, the implication that both men and women could be both violent and gentle. But I just didn't feel like there was much exploration. Perhaps I was predisposed to feel that way--but he did put his explanations into the book, so in some ways I think we can't separate the novel from the afterword, at least in terms of intention. So the whole of the book I read seemed very negative to me, but there was a great deal that I found interesting and well-thought out. This does bring up a question I've been thinking about with regard to Anne McCaffrey, of feminist intention vs. feminist effect. McCaffrey's said forcefully that she is not a feminist and does not write feminist novels. Yet many people, myself included, have found strong messages of feminist empowerment in her books at one time or another. I still like _Dragonsong_ and _Dragonsinger_ very much, in fact; but _Dragonflight_, which I used to love, now looks like nothing but a traditional, woman-in-her-place romance. (Warning: some spoilers for the early books ahead.) The best explanation I've been able to come up with is this. When McCaffrey writes about relationships between adult men and women she often puts them into the model of the stereotypical romance, bringing in many traditional ideas about strong women ruling the home and strong men ruling the strong women. Most of the models of the Weyrs look that way to me now: the queen dragon tells the other dragons what to do, the queen rider tells the queen dragon what to do, and the weyrleader tells the queen rider what to do. As someone pointed out on this list, I think, women are punished for "bad" sex in a way that's built right into the whole system. I can't ever think of Kylara now without realizing that she suffers the greatest loss possible, and it's literally because she's improperly promiscuous. Yet when I first read these books I focussed on the woman who rode the biggest, strongest dragon in the whole damn world, who *saved* the world, who did whatever she wanted to. My eyes skipped right over the bits where Her Man told her not to do it and she was glad he cared enough to be mad at her. It had no impact on me. As a child, I read that world as matriarchal, and figured that sooner or later they'd get a grip and let women ride all the dragons. So there was a strong feminist effect on me, without the author meaning it at all, and through the medium of books that I now see as profoundly unfeminist. I still re-read them for comfort sometimes, and I skip over the bits that I can't accept. Where would we place *that* in the lineup of feminist literature? Jessie ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:50:46 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010122180155.00958700@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:40 PM 1/22/01 -0600, Robin Reid wrote: >In terms of "race," the major exception to all-white futures (sometimes no >mention is made of skin color or anything else which means it kind of >defaults to 'white') is Marge Piercy's WOMAN ON THE EDGE OF TIME with a >Chicana protagonist and a possible future in which "race" is no longer tied >to culture; another possible exception is Dorothy Bryant's THE KIN OF ATA >ARE WAITING FOR YOU, a novel which I've never seen as feminist or utopian You do mention Charnas later in a different context, but I want to point out that her Holdfast series is conscious of race from the beginning. The intro to *Walk to the End of the World* (1974) says: "What else do [the men of the Holdfast] remember? They remember the evil races whose red skins, brown skins, yellow skins, black skins, skins all the colors of fresh-turned earth marked them as mere treacherous imitations of men, who are white [...] Of all the unmen, only females and their young remain, still the enemies of men." This introduction sets the scene of a society obsessively based on scarcity and scapegoating. And of course it turns out that the Holdfast idea of reality is far from complete. Just across the mountains live the Riding Women, whose "motherlines" represent several different races. Nenisi Connor, the abiding love of Alldera's life, is a black woman. And in *The Conqueror's Child*, another mixed-race society is discovered. Whether or not either of these latter societies counts as a utopia is a matter of debate, though. >LeGuin's LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS has been critiqued by feminists and others >on her use of the masculine pronoun and the fact that her protagonist, >again, is a man -- her exploration of a society in which all individuals >are neuter and become either functioning male or functioning female is >still a fascinating one. She's often criticized for not completely dealing >with what homosexuality might mean in her future society. Her short story "Coming of Age in Karhide" (1995) attempts to fill this gap. >I think in some ways the "feminist utopia" (especially the lesbian utopia) >concept did have major problems -- why did feminists quit writing >utopias? This is a question I've asked elsewhere and really wonder about >and haven't figured it out. In the eighties, the only two I know of are by >Joan [Slonczewski] and Sheri Tepper (and Tepper's GATE has been roundly >criticized because of her exclusion of lesbianism -- of course earlier >lesbian separatist utopias excluded heterosexuality -- and everybody >ignored the idea/concept of bisexuality). What about Nicola Griffith's *Ammonite*, Eleanor Arnason's *Ring of Swords* or Molly Gloss's *The Dazzle of Day*?They were published in the 1990s and are perhaps questionable as utopias, once again. Maybe this is really the evolution of feminist science fiction -- that the earlier, largely positive, works were absorbed and reworked in a more psychologically realistic way to acknowledge that, though it is worthwhile to work toward a better society, no single way of living will work for all people. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT Feminist SF Posting Archive at: http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/femsf-index.htm Listening to: Badly Drawn Boy -- The Hour of Bewilderbeast "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:08:29 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin In-Reply-To: <200101230129.UAA00754@dragon.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I totally agree with you and this was what I was trying to say when I first joined the list and ranted about McCaffrey. I too love Dragonsong and Dragonsinger, but get very angry when I reread Dragonflight and Dragonquest. I had an argument recently with someone who reads McCaffrey for the SF elements, not the romance and she didn't see the romance as being McCaffrey's ultimate focus in a novel. I disagree. In most of her adult novels, the end is pretty much a given- hero and heroine end up together and have lots of babies, thus rendering the woman to a domestic servant type role. The man is still free to save the universe, but the woman has more important things to do at home. I was the one who mentioned that women who are promiscuous are bad. And I believe I used Kylara as an example. I didn't see it as built into the system, in fact with characters like Kylara getting punished, I think it goes directly against the system McCaffrey set up. She says over and over again that women are more free in the Weyrs and can have sexual relationships with as many men as possible without fear of reproach. In fact, in dragonriders, this is encouraged because gold and green riders may end up with many different partners due to their dragons' mating flights. But then she makes Kylara seem evil for being promiscuous and makes all of her heroines virginal and once they do have sex with a man they are monogamous- except Moreta. Moreta the book stands out to me as being not the typical McCaffrey story. I know exactly what you mean about how you read it as a child. I did the same thing. I just saw powerful women doing things I had never before experienced in SF books. But then I reread them when I was older and I saw the patriarchal Pernese society, I saw that there were gay characters (another thing my 13 year old brain skipped right over), and I even began to feel that Lessa and Brekke were abused and raped by the "heroes." If I ever reread them again, I will be skipping over parts too. I've been thinking a lot lately about where does McCaffrey fit in? I see her books as un-feminist too, but I didn't when I was 13 and impressionable (no pun intended!). Her books did have a profound affect on me and I wouldn't be on this list today without my early forays into women written SF. Jennifer At 08:29 PM 1/22/01 -0500, you wrote: >This does bring up a question I've been thinking about with regard to >Anne McCaffrey, of feminist intention vs. feminist effect. McCaffrey's >said forcefully that she is not a feminist and does not write feminist >novels. Yet many people, myself included, have found strong messages of >feminist empowerment in her books at one time or another. I still like >_Dragonsong_ and _Dragonsinger_ very much, in fact; but _Dragonflight_, >which I used to love, now looks like nothing but a traditional, >woman-in-her-place romance. (Warning: some spoilers for the early books >ahead.) >The best explanation I've been able to come up with is this. When >McCaffrey writes about relationships between adult men and women she >often puts them into the model of the stereotypical romance, bringing in >many traditional ideas about strong women ruling the home and strong men >ruling the strong women. Most of the models of the Weyrs look that way >to me now: the queen dragon tells the other dragons what to do, the >queen rider tells the queen dragon what to do, and the weyrleader tells >the queen rider what to do. As someone pointed out on this list, I >think, women are punished for "bad" sex in a way that's built right into >the whole system. I can't ever think of Kylara now without realizing >that she suffers the greatest loss possible, and it's literally because >she's improperly promiscuous. >Yet when I first read these books I focussed on the woman who rode the >biggest, strongest dragon in the whole damn world, who *saved* the >world, who did whatever she wanted to. My eyes skipped right over the >bits where Her Man told her not to do it and she was glad he cared >enough to be mad at her. It had no impact on me. As a child, I read that >world as matriarchal, and figured that sooner or later they'd get a grip >and let women ride all the dragons. >So there was a strong feminist effect on me, without the author meaning >it at all, and through the medium of books that I now see as profoundly >unfeminist. I still re-read them for comfort sometimes, and I skip over >the bits that I can't accept. Where would we place *that* in the lineup >of feminist literature? >Jessie ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:15:55 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Gate to Women's Country (was BIMBOS OF THE DEATH SUN: Hart) In-Reply-To: <3A6CB70B.53DE558B@wmis.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:41 PM 1/22/01 -0500, Deborah A. Oosterhouse wrote: >WARNING!!! Spoilers below for *Gate to Women's County* by Tepper!! > > > > >(I hope I've included enough space here!) > > > > > >Allen Briggs wrote: > > > In _Gate_, the division of people is based on an "accident" of birth, > > IIRC. I forget how we end up with the men who are not part of the army > > culture, though... > >Perhaps this is what you had in mind when you put the quotation marks around >"accident", but the births of the people in *Gate* are not an accident at all. >The medical workers in the cities were doing deliberate genetic planning of >the population while making the soldiers think that they were the ones >fathering children. In reality, only the sperm cells of the >empathic/telepathic men were being used to impregnate the women in the cities. >The theory was that after many generations, the fighting men would be bred >completely away. There was also an element of choice for the men, though they weren't aware of the consequences until after they made the "right" decision. Those who remained in the city, rather than returning to the macho camps outside the walls, were the ones who fathered the coming generations. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT Feminist SF Posting Archive at: http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/femsf-index.htm Listening to: Badly Drawn Boy -- The Hour of Bewilderbeast "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:27:14 -0600 Reply-To: rudyleon@earthlink.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Gate to Women's Country In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010122210804.00a6ddd0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Someone on this list, or perhaps before the lists split, had pulled out and separated the Iphigenia material, and had offered to share it with interested folks. Can anyone remember who it was, and if she (I think it was she) is still onlist? ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "A desire for knowledge for its own sake, a love of justice that borders on fanaticism, and a stirring for personal independence --these are the aspects of the Jewish people's tradition that allow me to regard my belonging to it as a gift of great fortune. Those who today rage against the ideas of reason and individual freedom and who seek by means of brutal force to bring about a vapid state-slavery are justified in perceiving us as their implacable enemies." --Albert Einstein from the Holocaust Memorial Museum, Rudy Leon ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:54:54 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin In-Reply-To: <200101230129.UAA00754@dragon.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Several people have referred to _Glory Season_ as a "utopia". Why? It didn't strike me that way at all. It _was_ a society of long-standing stability and reasonable contentment; and any society will contain people who see it as the pinnacle pf possibility; but what is there in the book which led a large fraction of those who have discussed it to see it as any sort of presentation of a "perfect society"? (This is a query. It is not an editorial wearing a mask.) Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:45:17 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010122205454.00ee0100@pop.enteract.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed That's where I was going with my doubts about the novel as being a utopia although I suspect that one gap or problem may be in the English teacher's tendency (I'm an English teacher) to look for formal or structural elements while other people look at other aspects (including their response to it). I fell into a bad argument once with a friend over "tragedy" and whether it referrred to a novel -- she thought it wasn't a tragedy because she didn't like the character who died -- I thougth it was because of the "tragic flaw" (not necessary to LIKE a character) -- so, two definitions of "tragedy" at odds. I don't see GS as a utopia. I don't do utopian studies though, just sf. One good definition of utopia that I like comes from Jennifer Burwell's NOTES ON NOWHERE: FEMINISM, UTOPIAN LOGIC, AND SOCIAL TRANSFORMATION. She says that utopias are characterized by two poles: the image or idea of "something other and better than our existing conditions" along with "a set of conservative logics" (she lists a bunch of them including emphasis on unity, harmony, and self-consistency) -- a utopia "stands as a figure for the self-containment and inaccessibility that protects the imager of the ideal society from being contaminated by the historical conditions of its production" -- this "ideal" is already achieved; the "story" of how a society gets from here to there is not told. Burwell spends a lot of time on how feminist utopias break the conventions of the traditional utopia. I guess I think there's too much 'critique' in Brin's novel for it to be a feminist utopia. Robin At 08:54 PM 01/22/2001 -0600, you wrote: >Several people have referred to _Glory Season_ as a "utopia". Why? > >It didn't strike me that way at all. It _was_ a society of long-standing >stability and reasonable contentment; and any society will contain people >who see it as the pinnacle pf possibility; but what is there in the book >which led a large fraction of those who have discussed it to see it as any >sort of presentation of a "perfect society"? > >(This is a query. It is not an editorial wearing a mask.) > > >Neil Rest > >-- >NeilRest@enteract.com > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:46:06 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: book suggestions?: M'e (first round) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/22/2001 3:44:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, Todd.Mason@TVGUIDE.COM writes: << or perhaps KINGDOM OF THE GRAIL (less difficult, but possibly OP) by A. A. Attanasio >> You also might want to try UK online stores. It is an excellent book (and I've tried some of his other stuff and didn't like it). But the edition I got is UK. Chris ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:04:20 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: BDG: Nights at the Circus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Like you, Margaret, I have been quite behind in reading this month's BDG selection -- I just finished it today. I guess it took me so long to finish because the narrative didn't have an overall arc that pulled me along. It did have what I think of as "riffs" that absorbed me in spurts, and it made me chuckle aloud more than once. (Particularly when the clowns were involved, its farcical humor reminded me of *A Confederacy of Dunces*). But I had a hard time investing myself in the fates of Fevvers or Walser. Maybe the structure was too unbalanced, the initial section in London overwhelmingly mannered and compressed in time compared to the Petersburg and Siberia sections. Maybe the book had too much the aura of a romp on the part of the author. Maybe the postmodern touches were too obtrusive. I don't know. Like Angela, I don't think the book can accurately be called utopian. In fact, I wonder how Gasiorek supported that argument. So much that happens in the novel is ugly and depressing. Towards the end there are hopeful signs, at least for a few: the murderesses escape to their self-described Utopia; Mignon and the Princess settle down at the Conservatory. And Fevvers and Walser are at last reunited. But I am troubled by the end of the book. I'm not sure exactly what Fevvers means when she exclaims "To think I fooled you!" I don't think she means that her wings are a colossal fake. Is she referring to the "intacta" part of the statement? (i.e. she's not a virgin) Or is she talking about some more general ruse? In any case, the fact that she is so happy about having fooled Walser doesn't make me feel good about their relationship. The lead in to this scene, in which Fevvers regains her confidence as she impresses her audience, reminds me of a line in Virginia Woolf's *A Room of One's Own*: "Women have served all these centuries as looking-glasses possessing the magic and delicious power of reflecting the figure of man at twice its natural size." What kind of new woman is Fevvers if she needs such a looking glass to feel whole? ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT Feminist SF Posting Archive at: http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/femsf-index.htm Listening to: Badly Drawn Boy -- The Hour of Bewilderbeast "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT Feminist SF Posting Archive at: http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/femsf-index.htm Listening to: Badly Drawn Boy -- The Hour of Bewilderbeast "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:07:58 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: speaking of Wilhelm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit for those who read her non-SF works, I was tremendously impressed by the latest Barbara Holloway mystery, NO DEFENSE. No Defense by Kate Wilhelm It's been a while since I read a book, and found myself unable to immediately move on to the next one, because I was still contemplating the events of the book I just finished. No Defense, by the immensely talented Kate Wilhelm, falls into the ^Óstay on one's mind^Ô category. On the surface, Oregon lawyer Barbara Holloway^Òs client seems to have asked her to do the impossible: defend her against a murder charge for which she has no defense, and the witnesses against her are modern robber barons and their staff. Underneath, the story is about families, especially parents and children, and the extremes to which they will go to protect their own. In addition to this, the book has small commentaries on everything from the treatment of land in the West to the state of publishing, pointed out in incisive language and images. If you aren't reading Kate Wilhelm, you are denying yourself a real treat. Mira paperback, $5.99. --MeH Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:16:41 +0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dale Edmonds Subject: Re: book suggestions? Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Maryelizabeth, I'm sure you've got The Sparrow and its sequel, Children of God, on the list (Maria Doria Russell the books are sf, about a Jesuit priest making first contact and the disasters that follow. Very well written.) Some of LeGuin's Hainish stories are first contact and the Left Hand of Darkness is first contact (Hainish Envoy to the world Winter). There's Carl Sagan's Contact of course. For fantasy, I'd suggest The Mistress of Lilliput by Alison Fell - Gulliver's Travels from his wife's POV. Funny and full of discoveries. A really lovely book. I would very much appreciate it if you could forward me your bookgroups list of first contact books. I'm working on a novel from the alien POV about first contact, and have tried to track down more but haven't found many - there are probably lots but it's not a category as such in sf. Thanks! ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dale Edmonds dale@oggham.com ---------- >From: Maryelizabeth Hart >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: [*FSF-L*] book suggestions? >Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 3:45 AM > > My store book group is interested in doing some discussions of first > contact type novels, and after 8 years I am having a hard time coming up > with anything which is worthwhile, and we haven't already read. We just > recently read REMNANT POPULATION, for example. Any help or suggestions > would be appreciated. We are hoping to extend this theme in fantasy and > horror as well as SF .. so books with first encounters with magical > critters and/or monsters are also useful. > > Thanks, y'all. > > Maryelizabeth > > > -- > ******************************************************************* > Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 > 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 > San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 > http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: > mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com > > ******************************************************************* > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:35:14 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > And on those grounds, Brin (at least, the only Brin I've read) > doesn't even come close. And, if _Postman_ the book is anything > akin to _Postman_ the movie (which I've not read, and which movie > made my Never To Be Seen list when a 16 year old clerk at the > video store described it as I Am Fertile Man, Let Me Impregnate > You....) I have no desire to read the rest of his stuff... *snort*. I never watched the movie, but I did read the book. IIRC (it's been several years), it's split into two pretty distinct halves, and the first half I liked a lot; it made me cry. I don't think "is this feminist" ever crossed my mind; it's a postapocolypic male quest story, for pete's sake, but as far as that goes, I was quite affected by the first half, despite the machismo - this could have just been because it brought things up that I hadn't really considered before; I have fond memories of some pretty terrible books because they broadened my horizons significantly; for all I know, this could be one of them). The second half, however, TOTALLY fell apart, and wasn't really worth reading. BTW, I might have been on the list you're talking about with Brin defending "Glory Season" as feminist; was it several years ago? I wasn't buying it, on the basis of the review UKLeGuin wrote of it when it short-listed for a Tiptree award; you can find it on the tiptree website (can't remember what year). She was pretty unimpressed with it as "feminist", and that was good enough for me. His posts defending himself and attacking another list member (was it Charnas?) turned me off of reading anything more by him at all; my fiance likes some of his stuff, though *shrug*. -Sandy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:25:48 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Bill Sansbury Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin In-Reply-To: <200101230129.UAA00754@dragon.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7695685==_.ALT" --=====================_7695685==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Thanks for your message at 08:29 PM 1/22/2001, Jessie Stickgold-Sarah. Your message was: >Tepper's ruling women, though >they lied and tricked their people and deliberately caused the deaths of >many, many men, were at least working towards a time when men and women >could live peacefully and equally together. So the end really does justify the means? Bill --=====================_7695685==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Thanks for your message at 08:29 PM 1/22/2001, Jessie Stickgold-Sarah. Your message was:
Tepper's ruling women, though
they lied and tricked their people and deliberately caused the deaths of
many, many men, were at least working towards a time when men and women
could live peacefully and equally together.
So the end really does justify the means?
Bill --=====================_7695685==_.ALT-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:04:18 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Tepper's ruling women, though >> they lied and tricked their people and deliberately caused the >> deaths of >> many, many men, were at least working towards a time when men and >> women >> could live peacefully and equally together. > > So the end really does justify the means? > Bill My impression from the post you quoted wasn't that the ends justify the means, but that given the same means, not even having an end in mind is worse than at least having one. -Sandy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:38:34 +0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dale Edmonds Subject: Re: book suggestions? Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Right, I didn't mean that to go to the list *smacks forehead*, so in apology, here's a link to Salon's feature on Ursula Le Guin in today's edition (Brilliant Careers): http://www.salon.com/people/bc/2001/01/23/le_guin/index.html -Dale ---------- >From: Dale Edmonds >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] book suggestions? >Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 1:16 PM > > Hi Maryelizabeth, > > I'm sure you've got The Sparrow and its sequel, Children of God, on the list > (Maria Doria Russell the books are sf, about a Jesuit priest making first > contact and the disasters that follow. Very well written.) Some of LeGuin's > Hainish stories are first contact and the Left Hand of Darkness is first > contact (Hainish Envoy to the world Winter). There's Carl Sagan's Contact of > course. For fantasy, I'd suggest The Mistress of Lilliput by Alison Fell - > Gulliver's Travels from his wife's POV. Funny and full of discoveries. A > really lovely book. > > I would very much appreciate it if you could forward me your bookgroups list > of first contact books. I'm working on a novel from the alien POV about > first contact, and have tried to track down more but haven't found many - > there are probably lots but it's not a category as such in sf. > > Thanks! > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Dale Edmonds > dale@oggham.com > > > > ---------- >>From: Maryelizabeth Hart >>To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >>Subject: [*FSF-L*] book suggestions? >>Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 3:45 AM >> > >> My store book group is interested in doing some discussions of first >> contact type novels, and after 8 years I am having a hard time coming up >> with anything which is worthwhile, and we haven't already read. We just >> recently read REMNANT POPULATION, for example. Any help or suggestions >> would be appreciated. We are hoping to extend this theme in fantasy and >> horror as well as SF .. so books with first encounters with magical >> critters and/or monsters are also useful. >> >> Thanks, y'all. >> >> Maryelizabeth >> >> >> -- >> ******************************************************************* >> Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 >> 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 >> San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 >> http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: >> mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com >> >> ******************************************************************* >> >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >> discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >> unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >> LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: >> unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT >> >> Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. >> > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:14:20 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010122213718.00968d40@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:45 PM 22/01/01 -0600, you wrote: >I don't see GS as a utopia. >I guess I think there's too much 'critique' in Brin's novel for it to be a >feminist utopia. I agree Robin - I never saw it as a 'utopia' - but a critique or possibly an opportunity for Brin to make a series of nasty 'put-downs' - it didn't explore gender issues, but some of the issues/ideas surrounding stagnation/stability of societies who don't seek/adapt to change etc were interesting - if you ignore the sex of the protagonists its OK. But otherwise, to me it read like a bunch of men in drag. I didn't read his arrogant post-publication throughts until much later - and all they did was reinforce my original impression - the guy doesn't like feminism anyway, and GS was an opportunity to slam it. It turned me off Brin for years, tho' I did try him again with 'Earth' which just bored me. Until just recently, I've picked up the 'Uplift' series - I'm currently on number 4 (or No 1 in the 2nd trilogy) and love it, as rollicking space-opera & good fun:) As for 'feminist' or 'pro-feminist' male authors - the only one I can think off-the-top-of-my-head is Stephen Leigh. Even then, I was suspicious that Leigh might have appropriated input from unacknowledged women - but in giving the benefit of the doubt, I'd like to think Leigh is one of those incredibly rare men who has actually *listened* to women in his life and seriously made an attempt to cross the gender-gap. It reminds me of something Virgina Woolf (I *think*) wrote once about women writing men characters, and also how black authors are far better at writing white characters than in reverse. She discussed how oppressed peoples *know* their oppressors far better than oppressors can ever *know* the oppressed. I'm often reminded of this when I see films written by men with women protagonists like 'Thelma & Louise' - there always seems to be something 'missing' - it doesn't quite 'ring true' to me. A black friend of mine said to me recently something similar about black characters in films & books written by white authors. They keep coming across to me as men in drag - as if the author said to themselves "How would I react if I was a woman?" and all they can do is just reverse the sex of the character - but they are still behaving as men would. I'm not explaining it very well, I know - so I'll leave it there!! Cheers - Julieanne:) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:16:49 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: book suggestions? In-Reply-To: <3A6C8DE9.B073F00D@mystgalaxy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 22 Jan 01, at 11:45, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > My store book group is interested in doing some discussions of first > contact type novels, and after 8 years I am having a hard time coming > up with anything which is worthwhile, and we haven't already read. We > just recently read REMNANT POPULATION, for example. Any help or > suggestions would be appreciated. We are hoping to extend this theme > in fantasy and horror as well as SF .. so books with first encounters > with magical critters and/or monsters are also useful. Here are a few ones that are somewhat unusual and off the beaten track: Angel Station by Walter Jon Williams (fluffy but fun) Vast by Linda Nagata (first contact is not the only focus and is pretty odd, but it is there). This is the sequel to Deception Well, which has no first contact. Crescent City Rhapsody by Kathleen Ann Goonan (by radio contact only, more effects by rather than contact with aliens). The Monitor, the Miners and the Shree by Lee Killough (classic first contact) Golden Witchbreed and it's sequel Ancient Light by Mary Gentle (first ambassador to a newly found world). Gregory Benford's Center of the Galaxy novels have loads of first contact. They are: In the Ocean of Night, Across the Sea of Suns, Great Sky River, Tides of Light, Furious Gulf, Sailing Bright Eternity. Freemaster, Mentor, & Healer by Kris Jensen. Very much science fantasy, but interesting first contact with unusual psychic aliens. I hope these help. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 07:01:04 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Gagging and Rights: Mixon-Gould Comments: To: "Jennifer R. J." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just can't understand the mentality of women like Cindy------how can a woman support such an attitude? It's so self-destructive! I agree with your views entirely------makes so much common plain sense! Read Suzette Haden Elgin's Native Tongue trilogy for SF about extreme oppression of women and Terrorists of Irulan by Louise Marley. Amy > At 02:11 PM 1/22/01 -0500, you wrote: > >I hope and pray that Bush appoints strict constructionist justices to > >the Supreme Court who will overturn Roe v Wade. > >Cindy Smith > > And I hope that he doesn't. Personally, I hope he doesn't because I > believe women should have the right to chose and that a bunch of men > shouldn't be the ones making decisions about women's reproductive rights > (or lack thereof). And for the nation, I hope he doesn't because it would > probably get him killed, or at the very least, get him into a lot of > trouble with the people he represents. I have heard that about 70 percent > of people in the US believe that women should have the right to choose an > abortion in some cases- such as rape, incest, and the pregnancy causing > danger to the mother. I am not sure what the percentage is of people who > believe that women have a right to chose in any case though. If Roe V. > Wade were overturned there would be many angry people and the President's > job is to follow the will of the people to a certain extent, otherwise > things start to look like a dictatorship. > To keep this in topic to the list, I'm pretty new to feminist SF, and I > was wondering if there are any books out there about women having no > reproductive rights like things were in the past. I do know a little bit > about The Handmaid's Tale and own it but have not read it yet. Are there > other similar books anyone can point me toward? I'd really love to explore > this issue further and maybe even write something of my own about it. > Jennifer- wishing Lois McMaster Bujold's uterine replicators were an > actuality > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:32:59 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin In-Reply-To: <3A6D1812.856B3C01@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >BTW, I might have been on the list you're talking about with Brin defending >"Glory Season" as feminist; was it several years ago? I've never been on a list with Brin (was that in Rudy Leon's post originally?) -- but I have corresponded with him shortly after the big Tiptree hoohah -- and he sent me stuff, and I noticed he's still talking about it in some recently published stuff. I also met the Tiptree group a couple of years ago at the Fort Lauderdale Fantastic conference (mixed group of academics, writers, editors), and they are simply delightful! But so was Brin in our correspondance. *sigh* > I wasn't buying it, >on the basis of the review UKLeGuin wrote of it when it short-listed for a >Tiptree award; you can find it on the tiptree website (can't remember what >year). She was pretty unimpressed with it as "feminist", and that was good >enough for me. His posts defending himself and attacking another list >member (was it Charnas?) turned me off of reading anything more by him at >all; my fiance likes some of his stuff, though *shrug*. > > -Sandy > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:02:42 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Karen Brighton Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin In-Reply-To: <3A6D1812.856B3C01@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed About Brin's "The Postman" 09:35 PM 1/22/2001 -0800, you wrote: >*snort*. I never watched the movie, but I did read the book. IIRC (it's >been several years), it's split into two pretty distinct halves, and the >first half I liked a lot; it made me cry. Before it was a novel it was a short story. I remember reading it (In Asimov's I think) and loving it. It was an inspiring glimpse of the power of modern myths and hope to rebuild a society. I found the book disappointing, and the movie even more so. Karen ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:20:25 -0500 Reply-To: feldsipe@erols.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: feldsipe Organization: or Lack Thereof Subject: Re: book suggestions? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You might try my latest novel, The Annunciate. It deals with first contact from a Feminist perspective, and I've been told the alien is very, very alien. yours, Suze Feldman (Severna Park) Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > My store book group is interested in doing some discussions of first > contact type novels, and after 8 years I am having a hard time coming up > with anything which is worthwhile, and we haven't already read. We just > recently read REMNANT POPULATION, for example. Any help or suggestions > would be appreciated. We are hoping to extend this theme in fantasy and > horror as well as SF .. so books with first encounters with magical > critters and/or monsters are also useful. > > Thanks, y'all. > > Maryelizabeth > > -- > ******************************************************************* > Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 > 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 > San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 > http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: > mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com > > ******************************************************************* > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Severna Park, author of The Annunciate, Lambda Literary Award Finalist for Science Fiction. See the website! http://users.erols.com/feldsipe See The Cure For Everything on SciFi.com! http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/originals/originals_archive/s_park/ See flying monkeys perform amazing tricks! (RealMonkey required) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:29:43 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin Reid wrote: > > > >BTW, I might have been on the list you're talking about with Brin defending > >"Glory Season" as feminist; was it several years ago? > > I've never been on a list with Brin (was that in Rudy Leon's post > originally?) -- but I have corresponded with him shortly after the big > Tiptree hoohah -- and he sent me stuff, and I noticed he's still talking > about it in some recently published stuff. I also met the Tiptree group a > couple of years ago at the Fort Lauderdale Fantastic conference (mixed > group of academics, writers, editors), and they are simply delightful! But > so was Brin in our correspondance. > > *sigh* Yes, that was Rudy's post I was responding to, and he reminded me that it was on the SFUF list (which is pretty much just call for paper announcements, at this point), and it was SM Charnas that he was ripping into (to be fair, she was ripping back, too). -Sandy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:44:44 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin In-Reply-To: Sandy Candioglos 's message of Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:29:43 -0800 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) I want to thank all my friends on the list who supported me when I considerd leaving. John ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:48:50 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: thougts on feminism, via Tiptree and Brin In-Reply-To: Sandy Candioglos 's message of Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:29:43 -0800 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Does anyone out there know of a discussion group and/or list dedicated to dominant women/submissive men? John ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:17:43 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: lquilter Subject: help identifying a novel Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII seems like this was british sf; a novel, not a short story. i'm pretty sure it is NOT Frank Herbert's THE WHITE PLAGUE. but, biological warfare (something in the water?) causes almost all women to be sterile. story takes place in england. an up & coming guy comes up with a plan to solve the crisis, at least for england; round up the fertile women & put them in camps where they have babies over & over again. it turns out his wife is one of them but for the good of the country he sends her in anyway. fast forward 15 years or so. the guy has hooked up with his wife's twin sister, a sterile woman he had previously hated; the wife is miserable (or dead, maybe, i don't remember; certainly forgotten by the characters); the children of the forced-to-bear women are now of reproductive age themselves. horror of horrors, they turn out to be sterile ... it's the end and all this awful mistreatment of people is for naught. now, does this ring any bells for anyone? Laura Quilter / lquilter@feministsf.org ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:34:32 +0100 Reply-To: diane.severson@musician.org Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Diane Severson Subject: Re: book suggestions? In-Reply-To: <3A6C8DE9.B073F00D@mystgalaxy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Hi Maryelizabeth, THE PRIDE OF CHANUR, C.J. Cherryh I figure since no one else mentioned this one I would do so. I suppose your group has already read this. It's about several alien races' first contact with humans far from Earth. Diane Severson Mörfelder Landstr. 108 60598 Frankfurt am Main Germany +49/(0)69/613371 +49/(0)178/602-7124 (mobile) "scents of not known musics in whose careful eyes are dinned..." e.e.cummings ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:23:46 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "McKay, Tarryn" Subject: Re: help identifying a novel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain This sounds remarkably like a book called Ark Baby by Liz Jensen (a British author), published by Bloomsbury. There is no camp, but all the women in Britain are sterile. Not sure if this is a 'Feminist' book, but it is a damn good read! Taz > -----Original Message----- > From: lquilter [SMTP:lquilter@FEMINISTSF.ORG] > Sent: 24 January 2001 04:18 > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSF-L*] help identifying a novel > > seems like this was british sf; a novel, not a short story. i'm > pretty > sure it is NOT Frank Herbert's THE WHITE PLAGUE. > > but, biological warfare (something in the water?) causes almost all > women > to be sterile. story takes place in england. an up & coming guy > comes up > with a plan to solve the crisis, at least for england; round up the > fertile women & put them in camps where they have babies over & over > again. it turns out his wife is one of them but for the good of the > country he sends her in anyway. fast forward 15 years or so. the guy > has > hooked up with his wife's twin sister, a sterile woman he had > previously > hated; the wife is miserable (or dead, maybe, i don't remember; > certainly > forgotten by the characters); the children of the forced-to-bear women > are > now of reproductive age themselves. horror of horrors, they turn out > to > be sterile ... it's the end and all this awful mistreatment of people > is > for naught. > > now, does this ring any bells for anyone? > > Laura Quilter / lquilter@feministsf.org > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 06:40:50 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jeanne Thomas Subject: Re: help identifying a novel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/24/01 4:18:56 AM, lquilter@FEMINISTSF.ORG writes: << seems like this was british sf; a novel, not a short story. i'm pretty sure it is NOT Frank Herbert's THE WHITE PLAGUE. but, biological warfare (something in the water?) causes almost all women to be sterile.... >> Maybe PD James' THE CHILDREN OF MEN? ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:34:31 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: book suggestions? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to those who continue to suggest first contact novels. I'm keeping a file. Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:07:25 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: book suggestions? In-Reply-To: Maryelizabeth Hart 's message of Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:34:31 -0800 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) What kind of novels do you like?? John ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:45:34 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: help identifying a novel In-Reply-To: "McKay, Tarryn" 's message of Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:23:46 -0000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) I'm looking for a book or series that deals with a world and/or exixtence where men are the subservient sex and serve as slaves to a tyrannical woman society . Preferably somethin hardcore like Le Marquis De Sade. I know Califia comes close, but Im especially iterested in an epic literature. The "Torture Garden" is a good example. I would greatly appreciat e any suggestions Thank you so much. John ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:50:48 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: book suggestions? In-Reply-To: John Vazquez 's message of Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:07:25 -0500 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Does anyone know of hitorical novels based on Elizabeth Bathory? John ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 21:09:29 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: sc Subject: Re: help identifying a novel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Similar theme _Benefits_ by Zoe Fairbairns. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: McKay, Tarryn To: Sent: 24 January 2001 10:23 Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] help identifying a novel > This sounds remarkably like a book called Ark Baby by Liz Jensen (a > British author), published by Bloomsbury. There is no camp, but all the > women in Britain are sterile. Not sure if this is a 'Feminist' book, > but it is a damn good read! > > Taz > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: lquilter [SMTP:lquilter@FEMINISTSF.ORG] > > Sent: 24 January 2001 04:18 > > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > Subject: [*FSF-L*] help identifying a novel > > > > seems like this was british sf; a novel, not a short story. i'm > > pretty > > sure it is NOT Frank Herbert's THE WHITE PLAGUE. > > > > but, biological warfare (something in the water?) causes almost all > > women > > to be sterile. story takes place in england. an up & coming guy > > comes up > > with a plan to solve the crisis, at least for england; round up the > > fertile women & put them in camps where they have babies over & over > > again. it turns out his wife is one of them but for the good of the > > country he sends her in anyway. fast forward 15 years or so. the guy > > has > > hooked up with his wife's twin sister, a sterile woman he had > > previously > > hated; the wife is miserable (or dead, maybe, i don't remember; > > certainly > > forgotten by the characters); the children of the forced-to-bear women > > are > > now of reproductive age themselves. horror of horrors, they turn out > > to > > be sterile ... it's the end and all this awful mistreatment of people > > is > > for naught. > > > > now, does this ring any bells for anyone? > > > > Laura Quilter / lquilter@feministsf.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:23:24 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Bathory book: Vasquez MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Andrei Codrescu's THE BLOOD COUNTESS. -----Original Message----- From: John Vazquez [mailto:BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET] Does anyone know of hitorical novels based on Elizabeth Bathory? John ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:29:24 -0600 Reply-To: rudyleon@earthlink.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: gender correction In-Reply-To: <3A6E3E17.5D04DC7E@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On some lists, I enjoy a little gender invisibility, but here... She She She! I'm a She! I guess I can't have my cake and eat it too (be known female when I want, and leave to people's wondering when I choose to...), but on feminist lists, where I know my words will be judged as I write them, I guess I prefer to 'come out' as myself! > Yes, that was Rudy's post I was responding to, and he reminded me that ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "A desire for knowledge for its own sake, a love of justice that borders on fanaticism, and a stirring for personal independence --these are the aspects of the Jewish people's tradition that allow me to regard my belonging to it as a gift of great fortune. Those who today rage against the ideas of reason and individual freedom and who seek by means of brutal force to bring about a vapid state-slavery are justified in perceiving us as their implacable enemies." --Albert Einstein from the Holocaust Memorial Museum, Rudy Leon ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 18:57:05 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: speaking of Wilhelm: Hart MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Does Wilhelm strike you as rather similar to Joyce Carol Oates? Their similarity has seemed to me obvious by the time I'd read a couple books of each. I have confidently recommended each to fans of the other over the years. For your first contact list, I assume WHERE LATE THE SWEET BIRDS SANG has long since been group fodder? Less directly FC, though the case could be made, would be CITY OF CAIN and the wonderful DEATH QUALIFIED. Several of her horror novels might qualify as well. Availability, cursed spite, may make all but DQ difficult. Thanks for the tip on NO DEFENSE. I guess her publishers have Taught her A Lesson, retitling MALICE PREPENSE for paperback as FOR THE DEFENSE...hope this title doesn't confuse the issue for buyers... TM -----Original Message----- From: Maryelizabeth Hart [mailto:publicity@MYSTGALAXY.COM] for those who read her non-SF works, I was tremendously impressed by the latest Barbara Holloway mystery, NO DEFENSE. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 18:00:43 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: lquilter Subject: Re: help identifying a novel Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, feministsf-lit@uic.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hey y'all. none of the titles you suggested were there yet. thanks for helping. (if you come up with others let me know.) one key point: it was written AT LEAST before the late 1980s, eliminating several of people's suggestions. so, any other ideas? fyi, i'll summarize the titles listed here for your interest: PD James' THE CHILDREN OF MEN. yes, a sudden sterility sweeps the world. but as i recollect there were no forced "labor" camps. focuses in part on the lives of the last generation, right? Zoe Fairbairns BENEFITS. don't remember any sudden sterility. however, takes place in england. really reflects a lot of the author's experiences doing political struggle for welfare, housing, peace. specifically, the "benefit" is a benefit for stay-at-home moms; a salary, basically. but it's used by a conservative government ultimately to harm women's rights. Liz Jensen ARK BABY. Haven't read it. However, it's not the right story -- too recent, for one thing. It *looks* really good, though. Laura Quilter / lquilter@feministsf.org On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, lquilter wrote: > seems like this was british sf; a novel, not a short story. i'm pretty > sure it is NOT Frank Herbert's THE WHITE PLAGUE. > > but, biological warfare (something in the water?) causes almost all women > to be sterile. story takes place in england. an up & coming guy comes up > with a plan to solve the crisis, at least for england; round up the > fertile women & put them in camps where they have babies over & over > again. it turns out his wife is one of them but for the good of the > country he sends her in anyway. fast forward 15 years or so. the guy has > hooked up with his wife's twin sister, a sterile woman he had previously > hated; the wife is miserable (or dead, maybe, i don't remember; certainly > forgotten by the characters); the children of the forced-to-bear women are > now of reproductive age themselves. horror of horrors, they turn out to > be sterile ... it's the end and all this awful mistreatment of people is > for naught. > > now, does this ring any bells for anyone? > > Laura Quilter / lquilter@feministsf.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:16:30 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: speaking of Wilhelm: Hart MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Todd: I hadn't thought to compare Oates and Wilhelm. Hmmmm. And FWIW, over the 8 years the group has read both DEATH QUALIFIED and WHERE LATE THE SWEET BIRDS SANG. :) M'e who works her favorite authors into the discussions as often as possible -- amazing ;) -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:17:30 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Mellen Maynard Subject: BDG for Feb. Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yikes; Iım late, hereıs your next assignment--- Dear Discussion Groupies; Should you choose to accept it, your literary mission for February will be; Nights at the Circus, by Angela Carter. Discussion will be officially started by the nominator on (or about) the first Monday of February. Enjoy! Mellen For the BDG Volunteers Upcoming Books- Feb. 5, 2001 The Conqueror's Child, by Suzy Mc Kee Charnas Donıt forget to vote *************************************************************************** The BDG provides a forum for focusing discussion on a particular book during a one month period. The books discussed are nominated and chosen in advance by a vote of all members of the FSFFU-L list serve who choose to vote. Start thinking about your nominations now. To quote our list-mistress, "This does not prohibit discussion of the BDG books at other times; nor does it prohibit discussion of non-BDG books." If you have any other questions about the Book Discussion Group (BDG), it's selections, previous discussions or the Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy and Utopias Literature List Serve (FSFFU-L), you can start with the BDG website at; http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304, or the FSFFU-L website at; http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/fsflit/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:33:46 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Terri Subject: Voting Reminder Comments: cc: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi Everyone! Just a reminder, voting ends Monday Jan. 29th at midnight EST. Instructions for voting and the nominated books are listed below............. THANKS!! Terri Please send your votes for your FOUR (4) choices for the next BDG group read to me at...... not to the list!! You should receive a reply from me within 24 hours that I have received your votes. If you do not receive a confirmation from me, please let me know. We don't want anyone's votes to be lost in cyber space! :o) The voting period is from now until midnight, January 29th, USA, EST. The winners will be announced on Tues. Jan. 30th. Everyone please vote. Last selection period was so close it wasn't apparent until the very last moment which nominations were the winners! Your votes do count. Final nominations (14): Dorothy Bryant: The Kin of Ata Are Waiting for You. List Price: $11.95, Paperback Reprint edition (April 1997), Random House (Paper); ISBN: 0679778438 Octavia Butler: Lilith's Brood. Published by Warner Books - ISBN: 0446676101, retail price: 13.95 Keith Hartman: The Gumshoe, the Witch, and the Virtual Corpse. Meisha Merlin Publishing; ISBN: 1892065053; List Price $16.00 Nancy Kress: Beggars in Spain. Mass Market Paperback Reprint edition (March 1994), Avon; ISBN: 0380718774, $6.99US, also available as audio cassette Ursula K. Le Guin, Todd Barton, Margaret Chodos-Irvine, George Hersh: Always Coming Home (California Fiction). Amazon Price: $14.95, Paperback - 525 pages (February 5, 2001), Univ California Press; ISBN: 0520227352. This item will be published on February 5, 2001. Elizabeth A. Lynn: The Northern Girl. 470 pages, ISBN: 0441007279, List Price: $14 Louise Marley: The Terrorists of Irustan. List Price: $5.99, ISBN: 0441007430 Sharyn McCrumb: Bimbos of the Death Sun. List Price: $5.99, Mass Market Paperback - 212 pages, Reprint edition (February 1997), Ballantine Books; ISBN: 034541215X Maureen F. McHugh: Mission Child. List Price: $6.99, Mass Market Paperback - 370 pages (November 9, 1999), Eos (Mass MMarket); ISBN: 0380791226 (UK edition Orbit, ISBN 1- 85723-861- 3, paperback 6.99 GBP) Vonda N. McIntyre: The Moon and the Sun. List Price: $6.99, Mass Market Paperback - 496 pages (September 1998), Pocket Books; ISBN: 0671567667 Pat Murphy: The Falling Woman. List Price: $11.95, Paperback, Reprint edition (August 1993), Tor Books; ISBN: 0312854064. First published in 1986. Alice Nunn: Illicit Passage. Trade paperback, 250 pages. J. Neil Schulman: The Rainbow Cadenza. List Price: $27.50, Paperback - 394 pages (July 1999), Unknown; ISBN: 15884451238 Virginia Woolf: Orlando : A Biography. Paperback (December 1999), Wordsworth Edition; ISBN: 1853262390, $4.95 ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:50:56 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: help identifying a novel In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:00 PM 1/24/01 -0800, lquilter wrote: > >> seems like this was british sf; a novel, not a short story. i'm pretty >> sure it is NOT Frank Herbert's THE WHITE PLAGUE. >> >> but, biological warfare (something in the water?) causes almost all women >> to be sterile. story takes place in england. an up & coming guy comes up >> with a plan to solve the crisis, at least for england; round up the >> fertile women & put them in camps where they have babies over & over >> again. So far, that pretty exactly describes my recollection of _The White Plague_. >> it turns out his wife is one of them but for the good of the >> country he sends her in anyway. fast forward 15 years or so. the guy has >> hooked up with his wife's twin sister, a sterile woman he had previously >> hated; the wife is miserable (or dead, maybe, i don't remember; certainly >> forgotten by the characters); the children of the forced-to-bear women are >> now of reproductive age themselves. horror of horrors, they turn out to >> be sterile ... it's the end and all this awful mistreatment of people is >> for naught. >> But I don't recollect that it went like that. In Herbert's book, the guy built the plague after seeing his wife and child get wiped out by an IRA car bomb. Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 03:22:55 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: book suggestions? In-Reply-To: Maryelizabeth Hart 's message of Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:34:31 -0800 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) can anyone suggest where I can look for a woman interested in dominating a slave ? ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:48:31 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: (Fwd) [*FSFFU*] Oops - BDG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Mellen has problems getting posts through at the moment, therefore I forward this message for her. Petra ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Date sent: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:47:49 -0700 Send reply to: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mellen Maynard Subject: [*FSFFU*] Oops - BDG To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU OK, let's try this again; I plead flu brain in my defense. The correct book for February is: The Conqueror's Child. Apologies to all. > Yikes; > Iım late, hereıs your next assignment--- > > Dear Discussion Groupies; > > Should you choose to accept it, your literary mission for February will be; > Nights at the Circus, by Angela Carter. Discussion will be officially started > by the nominator on (or about) the first Monday of February. Enjoy! > > Mellen > For the BDG Volunteers > > Upcoming Books- > Feb. 5, 2001 The Conqueror's Child, by Suzy Mc Kee Charnas > Donıt forget to vote > *************************************************************************** > > The BDG provides a forum for focusing discussion on a particular book during a > one month period. The books discussed are nominated and chosen in advance by a > vote of all members of the FSFFU-L list serve who choose to vote. Start > thinking about your nominations now. To quote our list-mistress, "This does > not prohibit discussion of the BDG books at other times; nor does it prohibit > discussion of non-BDG books." > > If you have any other questions about the Book Discussion Group (BDG), it's > selections, previous discussions or the Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy and > Utopias Literature List Serve (FSFFU-L), you can start with the BDG website > at; http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304, or the FSFFU-L website at; > http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/fsflit/ -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------- End of forwarded message ------- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:11:37 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: help identifying a novel In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010125195056.01397560@pop.enteract.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I don't think it's _The White Plague_ - according to the back of the book the "American scientist whose wife and children are killed ...unleashes a synthesized plague that kills only women", and as I remember it he transmits it on money - paper bills that he laces with the plague virus. It's been years since I read it, but I don't think they use camps for breeding - that I remember from a Kate Wilhelm novel set down in the south and the children were all linked mentally or they were clones or something of that nature. Actually I have just skimmed ovewr the last few pages of _Plague_ and I am appalled at how non feminist it is - the fertile women are all required to take on second husbands - "Secondarys" they call them. There's this creepy admiral, Stonar, who starts the idea - he's acting head of the UN, and he wants to make sure his "line doesn't die out"(495). So he asks a woman who has a baby and is therefore proven fertile to have a child for him. Essentially all the military men are going to be guaranteed the right to have children by these fertile women, and women are even going to be shared with (sent to) other countries as breeding stock. Anyway Yech! but I really don't think it's the book Laura is describing, because the breding stock part is actually not a part of the story - it's just mentioned as what's to come in the future at the end of the book. Rose >At 06:00 PM 1/24/01 -0800, lquilter wrote: > >> >>> seems like this was british sf; a novel, not a short story. i'm pretty >>> sure it is NOT Frank Herbert's THE WHITE PLAGUE. >>> >>> but, biological warfare (something in the water?) causes almost all women >>> to be sterile. story takes place in england. an up & coming guy comes up >>> with a plan to solve the crisis, at least for england; round up the >>> fertile women & put them in camps where they have babies over & over >>> again. > >So far, that pretty exactly describes my recollection of _The White Plague_. > >>> it turns out his wife is one of them but for the good of the >>> country he sends her in anyway. fast forward 15 years or so. the guy has >>> hooked up with his wife's twin sister, a sterile woman he had previously >>> hated; the wife is miserable (or dead, maybe, i don't remember; certainly >>> forgotten by the characters); the children of the forced-to-bear women are >>> now of reproductive age themselves. horror of horrors, they turn out to >>> be sterile ... it's the end and all this awful mistreatment of people is >>> for naught. >>> > >But I don't recollect that it went like that. In Herbert's book, the guy >built the plague after seeing his wife and child get wiped out by an IRA >car bomb. > > >Neil > >-- >NeilRest@enteract.com > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:55:16 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marga <428476@FILOZ.UNIZAR.ES> Subject: help needed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hello there, a message to those mentioning Joyce Carol Oates. I'm currently working on Haunted, tales of the grotesque by J.C. Oates and any kind of information would be very welcome as I am not very sure on the aspect I want to focus on. Thanks a lot in advance. Marga. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:48:48 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: help needed: Marga MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" What kind of stations do you have, Marga? -----Original Message----- From: Marga [mailto:428476@FILOZ.UNIZAR.ES] hello there, a message to those mentioning Joyce Carol Oates. I'm currently working on Haunted, tales of the grotesque by J.C. Oates and any kind of information would be very welcome as I am not very sure on the aspect I want to focus on. Thanks a lot in advance. Marga. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:59:06 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: help needed: Marga MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Pardon, me, please...an occupational hazard. I meant to ask, "What kind of questions do you have?" -----Original Message----- From: Todd Mason What kind of stations do you have, Marga? -----Original Message----- From: Marga [mailto:428476@FILOZ.UNIZAR.ES] hello there, a message to those mentioning Joyce Carol Oates. I'm currently working on Haunted, tales of the grotesque by J.C. Oates and any kind of information would be very welcome as I am not very sure on the aspect I want to focus on. Thanks a lot in advance. Marga. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:12:42 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Margaret Poore Subject: Re: Pamela Sargent book? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I have been following various discussion threads I keep remembering a book by, I believe, Pamela Sargent. All the women live in high-tech enclaves and all the men are primitives wandering in the wilderness, which is dotted by shrines in which the men go to dream of women. These dreams are actually sent to them by the women who then choose specific men to come to the enclaves to "donate" sperm. The protagonist is a woman who is punished by being thrown out of the enclave and who then manages to survive among the men. I can't remember the title, tho. In following the discussions I have come to realize that when I started to read SF & F I was doing so to escape the hard realities of my every day life and so was quite unconscious as to themes and why I liked some books and not others. So when I read all these comments about books I have read I want to go back and read them again with my "feminist radar" turned on;-) Some of the books I have read and enjoyed before coming to this list include "The Healer's War" by Elizabeth Scarborough (I think; recently moved and all my books are still in boxes). I very much enjoyed "Remnant Population" and all the Heris Serrano books by Elizabeth Moon. Also, Kay's "Sailing to Sarantium", and Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Shadow". I just finished the last of the four Mary Gentle books about Ash, and have also read "Ancient Light" and "Golden Witchcraft". Generally I tend to read women-authored books, but I always read whatever Kay and Card publish. I find their realities quite fascinating. But I find myself unsure as to where these all fall on the feminist continuum. I am going to have to start paying attention to see if there is a positive correlation between feminist themes and my level of enjoyment. Margaret ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:31:07 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Patricia P. Lillquist" Subject: Re: Pamela Sargent book? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I believe the title is The Shore of Women. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:35:14 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: john vasquez Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu In-Reply-To: <12272-3A7133DF-4308@storefull-164.iap.bryant.webtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have removed John Vasquez from both lists, by his request. This is the only time, I think, I have had to do this in -- what, 5 years? -- of maintaining feministsf listserves. And I regretted it. But I had given him a serious warning about his general behavior on the list during the recent discussion on Ashcroft, conservative feminism, etc. And then he followed it up with an extremely inappropriate post on feministsf-lit. I warned him again, and told him that after another similar post I would remove him from the list. He responded & asked to be removed (rudely, of course). So I've taken him off. Anyway, I regret both his inappropriate behavior, and that I thereby needed to exercise power & discretion to handle it. But there it is. I guess I've been spoiled by the willingness to cooperate from all of you. Although the list(s) have had their disagreements etc. people have generally -- and especially lately -- been willing to respond to guidance about appropriate list conduct. So, thanks to all of you who've been around during the last week or so. I would appreciate any comments & feedback on this, umm, incident, that any of you have. Probably off-list is best. Depressed, Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net list-mistress, feministsf & feministsf-lit ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:54:14 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dave Samuelson Subject: Re: john vasquez MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm relieved. Laura Quilter wrote: > I have removed John Vasquez from both lists, by his request. This is the > only time, I think, I have had to do this in -- what, 5 years? -- of > maintaining feministsf listserves. And I regretted it. But I had given > him a serious warning about his general behavior on the list during the > recent discussion on Ashcroft, conservative feminism, etc. And then he > followed it up with an extremely inappropriate post on feministsf-lit. I > warned him again, and told him that after another similar post I would > remove him from the list. He responded & asked to be removed (rudely, of > course). So I've taken him off. > > Anyway, I regret both his inappropriate behavior, and that I thereby > needed to exercise power & discretion to handle it. But there it is. > > I guess I've been spoiled by the willingness to cooperate from all of you. > Although the list(s) have had their disagreements etc. people have > generally -- and especially lately -- been willing to respond to guidance > about appropriate list conduct. So, thanks to all of you who've been > around during the last week or so. > > I would appreciate any comments & feedback on this, umm, incident, that > any of you have. Probably off-list is best. > > Depressed, > > Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net > list-mistress, feministsf & feministsf-lit > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:35:43 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: john vasquez MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/26/01 3:35:45 PM, lquilter@EXPLORATORIUM.EDU writes: << I would appreciate any comments & feedback on this, umm, incident, that any of you have. Probably off-list is best. Depressed, >> Don't be depressed, Laura. He was inappropriate; you were not. best, phoebe w ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:03:14 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Margaret McBride Subject: Re: Pamela Sargent book? In-Reply-To: <58.666ff11.27a3343a@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:12 PM 1/26/01 -0500, you wrote: >As I have been following various discussion threads I keep remembering a book >by, I believe, Pamela Sargent. All the women live in high-tech enclaves and >all the men are primitives wandering in the wilderness, which is dotted by Shore of Women ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 02:22:10 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: john vasquez In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:35 PM 1/26/01 -0800, you wrote: >I have removed John Vasquez from both lists, by his request. This is the >only time, I think, I have had to do this in -- what, 5 years? . . . giving you a hell of a good average. Sorry something like that became necessary, but don't lose any sleep! Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:19:43 +0100 Reply-To: diane.severson@musician.org Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Diane Severson Subject: Native Tongue, Suzette Haden Elgin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT There is a good review of NATIVE TONGUE by Nalo Hopkinson at SciFi Weekly: http://www.scifiweekly.com/issue196/classic.html Was this book ever read On-List? I read it before I joined the list and would be interested what you all had to say. Briefly coming out of the woodwork, Diane Diane Severson Mörfelder Landstr. 108 60598 Frankfurt am Main Germany +49/(0)69/613371 +49/(0)178/602-7124 (mobile) "scents of not known musics in whose careful eyes are dinned..." e.e.cummings ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:32:18 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marga <428476@FILOZ.UNIZAR.ES> Subject: Re: help needed: Marga Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Todd, I have to write a 50 page long essay on her book : Haunted, tales of the grotesque and I don't know how to start, what to read and I am desperately looking for articles on her work that I can get for cheap. I would like any kind of advice on her work. Thanks a lot. marga. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:13:09 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: help needed: Marga MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First thing I would do is go to my university library and use any databases that have Humanities articles, sometimes the social studies has a blended databank but most of the time you can find the humanities indexes. Nexis-Lexis puts out articles, the John Hopkins one I forgot the name of but it is a databank of all their publications you can look up by article...first I would look under her name and the title of the work together to see if anything has been written, there are probably a few articles but moreso reviews of the book when it came out because it is recent...my other step is to use the library catalog to locate anything critical written as to themes in her work as background, sometimes you find connections between what has been written and what she is producing now in a thematic sense...sometimes by using her name as the subject you find critical works by scholars especially since she wrote the classic short story "Where are you going, where have you been?" (I might have that title backwards)In fact when I was considering doing research on her work, I found two books dedicated to that story alone in my own college library. Oh and there is Frances' on this list who told me about using Google.com for websites, am pretty sure there are sites dedicated to essays or references to her works in general. Very cool way to look for things you do not have an idea what turns up, grin. Jo Ann ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:47:40 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Walk to the End of the World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi folks, Having finally got my paws on Suzy McKee Charnas' series of "Wasting" novels, I promptly devoured "Walk to the End of the World", and was impressed. One thing that struck me was that although the novel is a dire prediction of the future, what Asimov called an "If this goes on..." story, it works just as well as an exaggerated parody of modern relationships between the sexes, with the women constantly required to pamper the men's egos - even answering questions in such a way as to avoid implying they know something the men don't. Anyway, I'm looking forward to the rest of the books in the series! Cheers, Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 22:15:02 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: Walk to the End of the World In-Reply-To: <3A754A4C.23370.18A71F@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi Kate, Yes! That's one of the things I noticed about it too - actually I saw it as even more exaggerated because of the way the men are so worried about being seen as manly men. The first time I read it I was very disturbed, but upon rereading it just got to be too much. Those men were afraid of everything including their own shadows. They had done such a good job of brainwashing themselves about all their enemies. Much of it is truly emotionally disturbing, but at the same time with multiple readings it is not so disturbing. Rose >Hi folks, > >Having finally got my paws on Suzy McKee Charnas' series of >"Wasting" novels, I promptly devoured "Walk to the End of the >World", and was impressed. > >One thing that struck me was that although the novel is a dire >prediction of the future, what Asimov called an "If this goes on..." >story, it works just as well as an exaggerated parody of modern >relationships between the sexes, with the women constantly >required to pamper the men's egos - even answering questions in >such a way as to avoid implying they know something the men >don't. > >Anyway, I'm looking forward to the rest of the books in the series! > >Cheers, > > >Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ >"I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:50:52 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Walk to the End of the World In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:15 PM 28/01/01 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Kate, >Yes! That's one of the things I noticed about it too - actually I saw >it as even more exaggerated because of the way the men are so worried >about being seen as manly men. The first time I read it I was very >disturbed, but upon rereading it just got to be too much. Those men >were afraid of everything including their own shadows. They had done >such a good job of brainwashing themselves about all their enemies. >Much of it is truly emotionally disturbing, but at the same time with >multiple readings it is not so disturbing. Yes Kate - you better move though, or BDG discussion of Conqueror's Child will give too many 'spoilers'! What I liked about 'Walk to the End of the World' was the technique of using the men character's eyes/thoughts as the primary story-telling vehicle - it is quite near the end before we find out all that much about the fems lives from their POV. Very much a statement made by 'understatement'. From the men's POV, and even the fems - the atrocities are so "normalised" - totally unquestioned, while the men constantly discuss manly things like the nature of the universe, life-after-death etc - analogous to 'how many angels can fit on the head of a pin', or lengthy discourses of whether women have souls etc. And Eykar Bek's conversations with Alldera stand out for me, as he tries to 'understand' - and at one point he cries "There can never be anything between us but rape!" Oh, Duh! Julieanne:) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.