From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:49:27 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:33 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0102A" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 01:09:31 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Nights at the Circus OK, this is very late, but what a hard book. It took me almost the whole month to read less than 300 pages. If it weren't for the book club I certainly wouldn't have finished, and now I wish more did because it's certainly a book worth discussing. Is it a book about the nature of good versus evil with the Colonel playing the role of the devil? "The Escapee, who believed in man's inborn innocence and innate goodwill, had no defenses whatsoever against the Colonel because, of course, the Colonel believed in both those self-same things, although the Colonel had quite a different angle on them." I just finished reading _Mutant Message from Forever_ in which the Australian aborigines are depicted as the least violent people in touch with nature, able to communicate telepathically. They should be the highest, most respected culture on earth, if it weren't for people like the Colonel who take good and innocence and use it to exploit those good people for their own advantage. So do the good and innocent people invent religion to allow themselves to continue to be moral in spite of the power of the Colonels of the world by creating a higher force that rewards their goodness and punishes the Colonels'? Is this a feminist or an anti-feminist book? Fevvers, in spite of her attraction to the journalist is horrified at the idea of marrying him. "'But it is not possible that I should give myself,' said Fevvers. Her diction was exceedingly precise. 'My being, my me-ness, is unique and indivisible. To sell the use of myself for the enjoyment of another is one thing; I might even offer freely, out of gratitude or in the expectation of pleasure -- and pleasure alone is my expectation from the young American. But the essence of myself may not be given or taken, or what would there be left of me?' 'Besides,' added Fevvers urgently, 'here we are far away from churches and priests, who'll speak of marriage --' 'Oh, I daresay you'll find these woodsmen amongst whom your young man has found refuge uphold the institution of marriage as enthusiastically as other men do, although they may celebrate it differently. The harder the bargain men must strike with nature to survive, the more rules they're likely to have amongst themselves to keep them all in order. They'll have churches, here; and vicars, too, even if the vicars have weird cassocks and perform outrageous sacraments.'" So Fevvers says she'll steel him away and mould him, make "'a new man of him. I'll make him into the New Man , in fact, fitting mate for the New Woman, and onward we'll march hand in hand into the New Century --'" So what happens? She finds him and grows beautiful. She cooks for him, pampers him, and laughs and laughs a laugh heard around the world. Was the laugh because she really couldn't literally fly or because she realized she didn't want to fly, didn't want to be the fiercely independent woman she had pretended to be? Was the joke that she just wanted to be a wife? This book just begged for more controversy, but its style (never use a 25 cent word when a $25 one would suffice) I think pushed many of us away. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:47:21 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: BDG Nights at the Circus In-Reply-To: <004201c08c2e$b0ff9ce0$2aaaea18@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I am glad you wrote in even though it took a while for you to read the book. I found it hard to get into, and only finished it a little over a week ago, just before the other list got soooo busy. I really didn't enjoy the book until I finally got to the part in Petersburg, Russia, where they really were at the circus. I found the part about the monkey's classroom to be really interesting, and I suppose it was supposed to be a statement about humanity also. It just seemed as if things livened up at that point. Then the rest of the book moved fairly quickly. I think I have difficulties with what must be magical realism - I was puzzled by and had to read over several times the part where Fevvers is alone with the grand duke, seemingly in mortal danger, only to suddenly have the train from his collection become the train she needed to catch to move on to their next planned stop. I guess it reminds me of the part at the end of the movie, _ Men In Black_ where the marble is is our universe in a game of marbles played by other beings. Microcosms and Macrocosms. I don't know - it was wierd and I had to reread it several times before I was able to continue reading. I think your idea of the Colonel as the devil is really interesting. I hadn't seen it that way at all, but then I didn't really give him much thought either. I guess if I had to think something specifically about the colonel it would be that he suffered from hubris. Actually though, I think you are closer to the truth - in a way he is like one of those preachers who purport to perform healings etc. when in actuality they are dishonest and only want to separate the gullible from their assets, which is not too far a cry from the work of the devil. The colonel ( like the devil ?) takes advantage of anyone who will let him. I do think the novel was feminist or at least had distinctly feminist elements, some of which you pointed out by mentioning Fevver's feelings about givcing herself to anyone, and Lizzie's comments regarding men's ideas on marriage. Also the whole section in which the Countess's prisoners work up to their escape - the writing in blood etc. reminds me of the views of feminist literary criticism - and that Olga Alexandrovna drew a heart on her cell wall in the same substance, after she answered the note form her warden. A heart is like a circle - continuous, with an open center... And then the whole romance / soul conncection between Mignon and the Princess. One thing that puzzled me though was that there was a place where Carter makes a mistake - she says that Lizzie loses her pocketbook in the train wreck, and thus with the loss of that and their magical clock she is renedered unable to manipulate their circumstances to their benefit. "'Prepare yourself for the worst, gel; we've lost the bloody clock haven't we. Burnt to a crisp in the wreck most likely. First your sword, now my clock. We'll soon lose all track of time, and then what will become of us. Nelson's clock. Gone. And that's not all. My handbag. That's gone too.' This was a disaster so great I scarcely dare think of the distress it would cause us." Then, just 2 pages later, Carter writes " ...the clowns grew restive and were all for getting the fire-boy to open the door and shove her out in the snow but Lizzie found a pack of cards in her handbag and they settled down resentfully but quietly, while the Princess's passion wore itself out..." And then later when they are at the Conservatory and they are concerned about Fevvers roots showing and her feathers turning brown, they again bemoan the loss of Lizzie's handbag in the train wreck, "Lizzie's handbag might have contained peroxide to assist with the one growth and, perhaps a bottle of red ink to aid in the other - elementary household magic! - but the handbag was gone, irretrievably lost in the wreck of the train" As for the ending - that she fooled him and her infectious laughter - I confess I didn't get it. I imagine that that has something to do with the magical realism. - or perhaps just that I am obtuse, but I don't think that it is supposed to be that she sacrifices her self to become the perfect little wife, because a grwat deal is made of how he has been changed by his experiences in Petersburg, and in the Transbaikal. He is not the same Walser who was just going to send stories back to his american readership. As I was just rereading it I found myself thinking that it - the whole section from Petersburg to the end - was all a set-up created by Lizzie and Fevvers to convert him into the kind of man she wanted him to be. I can't really explain it, but it's just a feeling I got from the story - especially considering how much happened - how much hair growing, feather moulting, saving and love, found and lost etc... in what was really only about one week's worth of time. Rose Reith >OK, this is very late, but what a hard book. It took me almost the whole >month to read less than 300 pages. If it weren't for the book club I >certainly wouldn't have finished, and now I wish more did because it's >certainly a book worth discussing. > >Is it a book about the nature of good versus evil with the Colonel playing >the role of the devil? > >"The Escapee, who believed in man's inborn innocence and innate goodwill, >had no defenses whatsoever against the Colonel because, of course, the >Colonel believed in both those self-same things, although the Colonel had >quite a different angle on them." > >I just finished reading _Mutant Message from Forever_ in which the >Australian aborigines are depicted as the least violent people in touch with >nature, able to communicate telepathically. They should be the highest, >most respected culture on earth, if it weren't for people like the Colonel >who take good and innocence and use it to exploit those good people for >their own advantage. So do the good and innocent people invent religion to >allow themselves to continue to be moral in spite of the power of the >Colonels of the world by creating a higher force that rewards their goodness >and punishes the Colonels'? > >Is this a feminist or an anti-feminist book? Fevvers, in spite of her >attraction to the journalist is horrified at the idea of marrying him. > >"'But it is not possible that I should give myself,' said Fevvers. Her >diction was exceedingly precise. 'My being, my me-ness, is unique and >indivisible. To sell the use of myself for the enjoyment of another is one >thing; I might even offer freely, out of gratitude or in the expectation of >pleasure -- and pleasure alone is my expectation from the young American. >But the essence of myself may not be given or taken, or what would there be >left of me?' > >'Besides,' added Fevvers urgently, 'here we are far away from churches and >priests, who'll speak of marriage --' > >'Oh, I daresay you'll find these woodsmen amongst whom your young man has >found refuge uphold the institution of marriage as enthusiastically as other >men do, although they may celebrate it differently. The harder the bargain >men must strike with nature to survive, the more rules they're likely to >have amongst themselves to keep them all in order. They'll have churches, >here; and vicars, too, even if the vicars have weird cassocks and perform >outrageous sacraments.'" > >So Fevvers says she'll steel him away and mould him, make "'a new man of >him. I'll make him into the New Man , in fact, fitting mate for the New >Woman, and onward we'll march hand in hand into the New Century --'" > >So what happens? She finds him and grows beautiful. She cooks for him, >pampers him, and laughs and laughs a laugh heard around the world. Was the >laugh because she really couldn't literally fly or because she realized she >didn't want to fly, didn't want to be the fiercely independent woman she had >pretended to be? Was the joke that she just wanted to be a wife? > >This book just begged for more controversy, but its style (never use a 25 >cent word when a $25 one would suffice) I think pushed many of us away. > >Joyce > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:38:05 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: stories about menses Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I was recently reading a lot online about menstruation and the story "Even the Queen" by Connie Willis was mentioned on The Museum of Menstruation, so I read it. I was a little disappointed in the story because I wanted to read something more "menstrual positive." I couldn't tell if Willis was making fun of her characters or if she was agreeing with them (this was my first experience with reading Willis, so I'm not sure what her usual tone is). So I was wondering if there are any other SFF stories or novels about menstruation and if any of them might celebrate it. Thank you. Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:03:21 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: stories about menses In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010201223329.00b642b0@mail.superior.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jennifer: > I was recently reading a lot online about menstruation and the > story "Even the Queen" by Connie Willis was mentioned on The Museum > of Menstruation, so I read it. I was a little disappointed in the > story because I wanted to read something more "menstrual positive." > I couldn't tell if Willis was making fun of her characters or if > she was agreeing with them (this was my first experience with > reading Willis, so I'm not sure what her usual tone is). So I was > wondering if there are any other SFF stories or novels about > menstruation and if any of them might celebrate it. Thank you. I wish I could suggest one, but I'm only replying order to say that the mockingly anti-feminist "Even the Queen" put me off Willis forever! Women's inequality is just down to our cantankerous bodies; when someone invents a wonderdrug to stop our periods (like they haven't already), which are totally incapacitating, *then* we'll be equal with men. Except for the eco-feminist loonies. Argh! Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 05:19:57 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Connie Willis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Well, "Even the Queen" turned me on to Connie Willis forever. I thought it was hilarious. And I didn't think it was at all anti-feminist: taking one side of a debate WITHIN feminism, sure. Marge Piercy and Shulamith Firestone also argue that technology as a way out of the biological specifics of femininity is a positive step for women - are you going to call them anti-feminist too? I mean really, what is there to *celebrate* about menstruation? Sure, if you are revolted at the idea of tasting your own menstrual blood, you've got a long way to go, baby - but that doesn't mean you have to quaff the stuff down whenever you get the opportunity. kate (frankly glad she has the technology to turn her periods on and off at will) >From: Kate Orman >Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] stories about menses >Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:03:21 +1100 > >Jennifer: > > > I was recently reading a lot online about menstruation and the > > story "Even the Queen" by Connie Willis was mentioned on The Museum > > of Menstruation, so I read it. I was a little disappointed in the > > story because I wanted to read something more "menstrual positive." > > I couldn't tell if Willis was making fun of her characters or if > > she was agreeing with them (this was my first experience with > > reading Willis, so I'm not sure what her usual tone is). So I was > > wondering if there are any other SFF stories or novels about > > menstruation and if any of them might celebrate it. Thank you. > >I wish I could suggest one, but I'm only replying order to say that >the mockingly anti-feminist "Even the Queen" put me off Willis >forever! Women's inequality is just down to our cantankerous >bodies; when someone invents a wonderdrug to stop our periods >(like they haven't already), which are totally incapacitating, *then* >we'll be equal with men. Except for the eco-feminist loonies. Argh! > > >Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ >"I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 00:26:05 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: stories about menses In-Reply-To: <3A7ADA49.30435.1401BA7@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:03 PM 2/2/01 +1100, you wrote: >I wish I could suggest one, but I'm only replying order to say that >the mockingly anti-feminist "Even the Queen" put me off Willis >forever! Women's inequality is just down to our cantankerous >bodies; when someone invents a wonderdrug to stop our periods >(like they haven't already), which are totally incapacitating, *then* >we'll be equal with men. Except for the eco-feminist loonies. Argh! >Kate Orman I got the same anti- feminist feeling from it. I guess I expected it to be in support of menstruation and to have it be making fun of it instead really bothered me- especially after reading so many women's comments on The Museum of Menstruation about how much they hated menstruating and an article on there about the drugs you mention above. I hadn't really thought of the aspect in the story that women only need to get rid of their periods to be equal to men. Thanks for bringing that up. I definitely related more to the "eco-feminist loonies." : ) Oh, one more thing, in the intro to the story, Willis said she often gets criticized for not dealing with women's issues and she seemed sarcastic about it. That put me off a bit before I even read the story. Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 00:38:04 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:19 AM 2/2/01 +0000, you wrote: >Well, "Even the Queen" turned me on to Connie Willis forever. I thought it >was hilarious. And I didn't think it was at all anti-feminist: taking one >side of a debate WITHIN feminism, sure. Marge Piercy and Shulamith Firestone >also argue that technology as a way out of the biological specifics of >femininity is a positive step for women - are you going to call them >anti-feminist too? But why should we have to get rid of something that is totally feminine to become equal to men? To me that's making women more like men instead of accepting the differences between us. I don't see turning off our periods as a positive step, I see it as a step toward being female men. I would see an acceptance of our periods with less embarrassment and disgust as being a more positive step for women. >I mean really, what is there to *celebrate* about menstruation? Sure, if you >are revolted at the idea of tasting your own menstrual blood, you've got a >long way to go, baby - but that doesn't mean you have to quaff the stuff >down whenever you get the opportunity. >kate (frankly glad she has the technology to turn her periods on and off at >will) Obviously, I'm coming at it from the totally opposite direction. I think maybe if we celebrated menstruation more, maybe girls would feel better about their bodies and wouldn't feel so ashamed. Well, I don't trust the technology at all, personally. Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:59:06 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Obviously, I'm coming at it from the totally opposite direction. I > think maybe if we celebrated menstruation more, maybe girls would feel > better about their bodies and wouldn't feel so ashamed. > Well, I don't trust the technology at all, personally. > Jennifer Huh? Ashamed? I'm FAR from ashamed of my body, or of menstruation, or of the fact that I'm female, but I also am glad I have the option to not have my period if I don't want to; as someone with no plans to procreate, it's nothing but a messy painful hassle. I see it as similar to the choice to wear a bra; technology allows me to bind my breasts comfortably; if I go without for a day, I HURT, so I'm grateful I have the option. I don't think wearing a jogbra makes me any more "manlike" because it makes me flatter than choosing not to have my period does. As an aside, I've loved every single thing Willis has published, myself; some of it's a little weird, but it's all GOOD (IMHO, of course!). -Sandy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:26:51 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010202002653.00b73720@mail.superior.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:38 AM 2/02/01 -0500, you wrote: >At 05:19 AM 2/2/01 +0000, you wrote: >>Well, "Even the Queen" turned me on to Connie Willis forever. I thought it >>was hilarious. And I didn't think it was at all anti-feminist: taking one >>side of a debate WITHIN feminism, sure. Marge Piercy and Shulamith Firestone >>also argue that technology as a way out of the biological specifics of >>femininity is a positive step for women - are you going to call them >>anti-feminist too? I thought Firestone rethought later? Partly because she missed issues of control & power of things like reprotech - remember she wrote "pregnancy is barbaric" over a decade before there was even a hint of reprotech becoming a reality - and later writings started to question just *who* has control & power over such things? Sure isnt women. In some machine tech artificial reproductive future - I wonder whether there will be 'equal' access to it? As for Marge Piercy I thought it was the one aspect of her utopia in 'Woman on the Edge of Time' that didn't quite gel for me - a character says "we all had to give up our power bases"... like this totally mythical "power" of having babies is a one-to-one "equal" exchange for the huge powerbases of men? Like they don't have enough already? Ahahahahahahaha... but my immediate reaction was - "How much *power* have mothers ever had anyway?"... men have always controlled reproduction, by controlling individual women, and mothers (as a social group) remain the most controlled, vulnerable and least powerful of all women. Methinx these authors have personal issues surrounding dislike of their own biology to deal with - rather than work for a world in which women's biology can "fit" comfortably and equally alongside men's - (it is after all - human biology) we have to get rid of it, or reconstruct women's lives and bodies to "fit" the male biological norms, or alternatively masculine fantasies of "ideal" women - who have huge boobs, (that never lactate), no body hair, no smells, no sweats, no secretions, no stretch-marks, ... > But why should we have to get rid of something that is totally feminine >to become equal to men? To me that's making women more like men instead of >accepting the differences between us. I don't see turning off our periods >as a positive step, I see it as a step toward being female men. I would >see an acceptance of our periods with less embarrassment and disgust as >being a more positive step for women. Yes, I see it as a step toward being female men too:) when people yadda, yadda about 'Biology is Destiny" - I like to stir them up by asking - , yeah - but *WHOSE* biology? Are we all destined to adopt male biology, along with male sexuality, male heirarchies, male power-trips etc? Doing that still says female is inferior, male is superior, so lets just get rid of all the inferior female bits, and become superiors too - and hey presto - everybody is magically equal? Blaming biology also takes all responsibility off men to do any changing of themselves, ie. male is normal, female is abnormal, and therefore only females need to be "fixed" because men are already born perfect and dont need any changes. As Greer also said ' No amount of EEO Legislation will allow me to feel comfortable in my woman's body until men and women accept that my body is human, and its the world that needs changing, not our bodies" Julieanne ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 03:42:18 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <3A7A5ABA.DF488BFB@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:59 PM 2/1/01 -0800, you wrote: >Huh? Ashamed? I'm FAR from ashamed of my body, or of menstruation, or of the >fact that I'm female, but I also am glad I have the option to not have my >period >if I don't want to; as someone with no plans to procreate, it's nothing but a >messy painful hassle. I see it as similar to the choice to wear a bra; >technology allows me to bind my breasts comfortably; if I go without for a >day, I >HURT, so I'm grateful I have the option. I don't think wearing a jogbra >makes me >any more "manlike" because it makes me flatter than choosing not to have my >period does. >As an aside, I've loved every single thing Willis has published, myself; >some of >it's a little weird, but it's all GOOD (IMHO, of course!). > -Sandy I didn't mean that all women who dislike their periods and would prefer to be rid of it are ashamed of their bodies. What I mean is that in general, women are made to be ashamed of their bodies and I feel like the way periods are treated in the U.S. helps contribute to this (and many of the women on the web site I mentioned who wanted to be rid of their periods WERE ashamed of their bodies and their periods). We are taught to hate a biological function that sets us apart from men. I read this great article by Gloria Steinem in which she went on about what the world would be like if men menstruated. It was quite funny, but also quite true. I'm not saying that you are more manlike if you chose not to have your period, but if society *expected* that of women like in the Willis story, wouldn't society really be seeing us as more manlike since men don't menstruate? Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 03:56:15 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010202182651.00aac100@pop.ozemail.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:26 PM 2/2/01 +1100, you wrote: >rather than work for a world in which women's >biology can "fit" comfortably and equally alongside men's - (it is after >all - human biology) we have to get rid of it, or reconstruct women's lives >and bodies to "fit" the male biological norms, or alternatively masculine >fantasies of "ideal" women - who have huge boobs, (that never lactate), no >body hair, no smells, no sweats, no secretions, no stretch-marks, ... >Yes, I see it as a step toward being female men too:) >when people yadda, yadda about 'Biology is Destiny" - I like to stir them >up by asking - , yeah - but *WHOSE* biology? Are we all destined to adopt >male biology, along with male sexuality, male heirarchies, male power-trips >etc? Doing that still says female is inferior, male is superior, so lets >just get rid of all the inferior female bits, and become superiors too - >and hey presto - everybody is magically equal? >Blaming biology also takes all responsibility off men to do any changing of >themselves, ie. male is normal, female is abnormal, and therefore only >females need to be "fixed" because men are already born perfect and dont >need any changes. >As Greer also said ' No amount of EEO Legislation will allow me to feel >comfortable in my woman's body until men and women accept that my body is >human, and its the world that needs changing, not our bodies" >Julieanne You said it much better than I tried to. I've read a lot in the past few years about women who object to women characters in movies and books who are basically men with boobs, and it's made me think a lot about that concept in both fiction and in real life. The Willis story and this conversation have made me evaluate it even more. I agree with what you said about blaming biology taking the blame away from men. I get the feeling often that society does see men as the ideal and if women just become more manlike, then they can be equals. I hope it's not just clueless idealism on my part to hope that women can be accepted as equals to men and that things like different biological functions can be disregarded, or even better: embraced. I swear I will scream that next time I hear a man say he wouldn't trust a woman president because she might start a nuclear war due to her PMS! What is the title of the book by Firestone? I'd like to read as much as I can about this topic. Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 21:13:32 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010202034419.00bdca90@mail.superior.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:56 AM 2/02/01 -0500, Jennifer R. J. wrote: > You said it much better than I tried to. I've read a lot in the past >few years about women who object to women characters in movies and books >who are basically men with boobs, and it's made me think a lot about that >concept in both fiction and in real life. The Willis story and this >conversation have made me evaluate it even more. > What is the title of the book by Firestone? I'd like to read as much >as I can about this topic. Hi Jennifer - Shulamith Firestone wrote 'The Dialectic of Sex' in the 70s, I think. The most famous quote is "Pregnancy is Barbaric!.... Childbirth hurts!" - which is in a chapter concerned with reproduction etc - and Firestone speculates that technology might prove beneficial to women in removing the "tyranny of reproduction" - but its only a small part of the whole book which looks at various areas of sexual politics. I suspect it is out-of-print by now - but it still appears on University/College reading lists as a standard text, so I would think most libraries would have it. Juliet Mitchell's 'Sexual Politics' written around the same time is also worthwhile - I see these theories/analyses as very early developments in feminist theory, by the early 1980s this development and growth of thinking had continued to expand by feminists in other areas of femininity and biology etc: "Of Woman Born : Motherhood as Institution & Experience" - Adrienne Rich " Gyn / Ecology " - Mary Daly (warning: these 2 books are, in places, emotionally painful to read) "The Transsexual Empire" - Janice Raymond ( I *think* it was her:) - which focusses on the "men with boobs" issues. "Sex & Destiny: The Politics of Human Fertility" - Germaine Greer (my personal favourite of all of Greer's works, better than Female Eunuch, and I think her latest book 'The Whole Woman' may not make a lot of sense unless the reader is familiar with 'Sex & Destiny') There's another Greer book as sort-of sequel: "The Change: Women, Ageing & Menopause" By the late 80s and 90s when Reprotech was on the rise - analyses started to expand even more, and lots of scholarship went into looking at the history of the Pill, hormonal contraception, IVF etc. But thats enough to start with huh?:) Cheers - Julieanne:) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:52:20 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG schedule February to June MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT In a very close race your votes determined the next BDG books. The winners are: Nancy Kress: Beggars in Spain Elizabeth A. Lynn: The Northern Girl Louise Marley: The Terrorists of Irustan Vonda N. McIntyre: The Moon and the Sun The BDG schedule for the next months is as follows: 5 February: Suzy McKee Charnas: The Conquerer's Child 5 March: Louise Marley: The Terrorists of Irustan 2 April: Elizabeth A. Lynn: The Northern Girl 7 May: Vonda N. McIntyre: The Moon and the Sun 4 June: Nancy Kress: Beggars in Spain We will update the BDG website accordingly in the next days. By the way, _Illicit Passage_ came close (lots of books came close, we're thinking about ways to break ties). That to those who'd like to organize ordering this book. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:21:59 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I didn't mean that all women who dislike their periods and would > prefer to be rid of it are ashamed of their bodies. What I mean is that in > general, women are made to be ashamed of their bodies and I feel like the > way periods are treated in the U.S. helps contribute to this (and many of > the women on the web site I mentioned who wanted to be rid of their periods > WERE ashamed of their bodies and their periods). We are taught to hate a > biological function that sets us apart from men. I read this great article > by Gloria Steinem in which she went on about what the world would be like > if men menstruated. It was quite funny, but also quite true. > I'm not saying that you are more manlike if you chose not to have your > period, but if society *expected* that of women like in the Willis story, > wouldn't society really be seeing us as more manlike since men don't > menstruate? > Jennifer Ah....this does clarify a bit. I guess I've never really deep-down understood the idea that a female ought to be ashamed of being female...I was raised by a very much in-charge mother and a more passive father, with no brothers to compare to, and was NEVER limited in what I could do or dream, or told that I was anything less than fully capable because of my gender....so coming from that space, and also being a person who values personal comfort above almost everything else, I see menstruation as a hassle not because it's something that sets me apart from the boys, but simply because it hurts me personally. I haven't read "even the queen" in quite a few years; I'll have to find it and read it again more critically to see if I can get what you're saying. -Sandy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:29:22 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I didn't mean that all women who dislike their periods and would > prefer to be rid of it are ashamed of their bodies. What I mean is that in > general, women are made to be ashamed of their bodies and I feel like the > way periods are treated in the U.S. helps contribute to this (and many of > the women on the web site I mentioned who wanted to be rid of their periods > WERE ashamed of their bodies and their periods). We are taught to hate a > biological function that sets us apart from men. I read this great article > by Gloria Steinem in which she went on about what the world would be like > if men menstruated. It was quite funny, but also quite true. > I'm not saying that you are more manlike if you chose not to have your > period, but if society *expected* that of women like in the Willis story, > wouldn't society really be seeing us as more manlike since men don't > menstruate? > Jennifer Ah..that does clarify for me a bit; I've never really understood the concept of being ashamed of being female...I was raised by a very much in-charge mother and a father who preferred to let her make most of the decisions, and no brothers to compare to; I was NEVER limited in what I could attempt, and never told there was ANYTHING I couldn't do because of my gender. Coming from that space, and also as a peron who values personal comfort above almost all else, I have trouble grasping the idea of disliking menstruation for any other reason than becuase it hurts. It's been years since I read "even the queen"; I'll have to find it and read it again more critically to see if I can get what you're saying. -Sandy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:56:04 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: menstruation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <3A7AD097.44C25EB@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:21 AM 2/2/01 -0800, you wrote: >Ah....this does clarify a bit. I guess I've never really deep-down >understood the >idea that a female ought to be ashamed of being female...I was raised by a >very >much in-charge mother and a more passive father, with no brothers to >compare to, >and was NEVER limited in what I could do or dream, or told that I was >anything less >than fully capable because of my gender....so coming from that space, and also >being a person who values personal comfort above almost everything else, I see >menstruation as a hassle not because it's something that sets me apart >from the >boys, but simply because it hurts me personally. >I haven't read "even the queen" in quite a few years; I'll have to find it >and read >it again more critically to see if I can get what you're saying. > -Sandy I knew I would probably have to clarify a bit because my writing last night just wasn't working. I didn't feel like I was able to make my points clearly and I was mistyping left and right- as evidenced by my (previously) misspelled subject line. I just couldn't write effectively last night. I grew up in the same situation, except my father was mostly absent rather than being passive. But they both had something to do with me being unashamed to be female. I see menstruation is a hassle sometimes too, especially because I have a chronic illness and they make each other worse, but I don't think I'd get rid of it. For one, it would mean taking more drugs than I already take and I'm paranoid about how they would affect each other. I wouldn't mind just being able to get rid of the pain aspect though. Like I said, I think maybe the reason I was so critical of it was that I had just gotten rather down by reading so many women's comments about how disgusting their periods are and I really wanted to read something that was more period positive. If I had read it at a different time, I might have had a totally different perspective. And I do plan to read more of Connie Willis's works. Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:02:17 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Subject: On the topic of Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010201223329.00b642b0@mail.superior.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hey gang! I just thought I would let you all know that Connie Willis is the guest of honour at a sci-fi literary convention at the end of this month in Toronto. Check out http://www.ad-astra.org/ to find out more. I am to be one of several panelists at the convention. I had a great time last year. I'm hoping it will be a blast again. Lyla Miklos __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:28:27 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: menses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, wasn't there a recent article about the increased number of years spent with a menstrual cycle (due to extended life spans and postponement of child birth) causing some health problems for women? Our bodies haven't caught up to our choices yet, in some ways. The article said some women are using birth control pills, etc. to only menstruate a few times a year, with some positive results. Maybe that's why we so seldom hear about it in SF novels? Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:25:27 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Misha Bernard Subject: menstruation book citation & Connie Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi all because Maryelizabeth mention ideas about how unusual regular menses might be for the 'average' or 'normal' woman, I thought I would pass along at the bottom of this message a citation for a book (thin, I got it through Interlibrary Loan, but didn't have time to finish it last year and haven't got back to it). There are the reviews/responses that were also forwarded to me by a classmate. As for the Connie Willis story, what stands-out more in my memory of that story than any anti-female (rather than anti-feminist I would say) take is a story of rebellion/family and the power of convincing. I saw Willis idea as a society of choice (to have a shunt put in to eliminate menstrual evacuation... what I imagined I wanted at some points- a spigot that I could turn on and off, rather than deal with tampons/pads/etc) dealing with comfort versus 'authenticity' of the female body. HOWever, what I mostly think about is how the mother (or was it grandmother) was ignored in her 'wisdom' and the (great)grandmother managed to diffuse the situation (and come out ahead) by seeming permissive AND the fact that the daughter who was interested in the shunt really hadn't thought it all through. I thought Willis was commenting on how some aspects of women's movement AND SF suggested ideas that were not necessarily practicable or desirable for lots of women/people. Misha Bernard Cultural Studies PhD student mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason University ------------------------- -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- Ursula K. Le Guin "World Making" (1981) Here's info on that book on menstruation--plus a couple of reviews to give you an idea of the content (and reactions!) Is Menstruation Obsolete? by Elsimar M. Coutinho, Sheldon J. Segal (Contributor) Oxford UP, 1999. From Booklist, September 15, 1999 If your first reaction to the title is to wonder what idiocy the next offbeat author will write about, pinch yourself hard and read carefully. Coutinho, a recognized authority on fallopian tube physiology and pharmacology, is absolutely serious. He approaches his subject historically and scientifically (Segal prepared this English-language edition of the originally Brazilian Portuguese work). Down through the centuries, he points out, most women did not menstruate regularly. Either they were pregnant most of the time or they succumbed early to the many dangers and diseases that preyed on them. Menstruation has become regular and long-term for the typical woman only quite recently. Coutinho explores the purposes of this physiological function, its potential dangers, and its safe suppression (he has done pioneering work with Depo-Provera). His arguments are scientifically based, and his conclusions are thoroughly worked out in a definitely provocative but eminently worthwhile book that well may spend most of its prospective library shelf-life off the shelf. From Kirkus Reviews Women have evolved past the need for menstruation, goes this questionable argument, and now should be relieved of the problem of an unnecessary monthly loss of blood. Coutinho (Gynecology, Obstetrics and Human Reproduction/Federal University of Bahia School of Medicine in Brazil) first advanced this startling opinion in a 1996 Portuguese edition of this work. Here he teams up with Segal (Distinguished Scientist at the Population Council in New York) to make the case that ``recurrent menstruation is unnecessary and can be harmful to women. It is a needless loss of blood.'' Biologically, the authors contend, women were designed to live shorter lives and to spend most of their reproductive lives pregnant or lactating, and so not ovulating. Longer human life spans and many fewer children mean more menstrual cycles, more cycle-related illnesses, an increased risk of such dangerous diseases as ovarian and endometrial cancers, and a serious worldwide problem of female anemia. ``The attitude that menstruation is a `natural event' and therefore beneficial to women has no basis in scientific fact,'' conclude Coutinho and Segal, who therefore advise using long-acting contraceptives or continuously using oral contraceptives (with no monthly break to allow pointless bleeding) to achieve ``freedom from menstruation.'' ``Under proper medical supervision,'' they further suggest, ``it can also be attained through natural means such as a conscientious regimen of rigorous exercise.'' It's difficult to imagine a world in which women would have the time for an exercise regimen of the level required to stop menstruation (literally hours each day), more difficult still to imagine this entire argument holding much appeal or even interest for readers of either sex. ### ======================================================================== Lynne M. Constantine Cultural Studies Program George Mason University lconstan@osf1.gmu.edu (703) 379-4855 ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:53:23 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: stories about menses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I knew there was a reason I can't stand Connie Willis! Amy > > I wish I could suggest one, but I'm only replying order to say that > the mockingly anti-feminist "Even the Queen" put me off Willis > forever! Women's inequality is just down to our cantankerous > bodies; when someone invents a wonderdrug to stop our periods > (like they haven't already), which are totally incapacitating, *then* > we'll be equal with men. Except for the eco-feminist loonies. Argh! > > > Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ > "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:55:31 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Couldn't agree with you more Jennifer! Amy > But why should we have to get rid of something that is totally feminine > to become equal to men? To me that's making women more like men instead of > accepting the differences between us. I don't see turning off our periods > as a positive step, I see it as a step toward being female men. I would > see an acceptance of our periods with less embarrassment and disgust as > being a more positive step for women. > > > >I mean really, what is there to *celebrate* about menstruation? Sure, if you > >are revolted at the idea of tasting your own menstrual blood, you've got a > >long way to go, baby - but that doesn't mean you have to quaff the stuff > >down whenever you get the opportunity. > >kate (frankly glad she has the technology to turn her periods on and off at > >will) > > Obviously, I'm coming at it from the totally opposite direction. I > think maybe if we celebrated menstruation more, maybe girls would feel > better about their bodies and wouldn't feel so ashamed. > Well, I don't trust the technology at all, personally. > Jennifer > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:04:16 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: menses In-Reply-To: <3A7AEE3B.8FF5F03F@mystgalaxy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Not to mention articles about girls hitting puberty at age 9 and 10 and earlier (breasts, periods, etc.) possibly because of the level of hormones in beef, etc. And the problems that causes.... I'm just rereading Tepper's _Gibbon's Decline and Fall_ in which a "virus" has been spread over the earth reducing male and female secondary sexual attributes and appetites in order to help create equality for men and women, heh heh heh.... Robin At 09:28 AM 02/02/2001 -0800, you wrote: >Actually, wasn't there a recent article about the increased number of >years spent with a menstrual cycle (due to extended life spans and >postponement of child birth) causing some health problems for women? Our >bodies haven't caught up to our choices yet, in some ways. The article >said some women are using birth control pills, etc. to only menstruate a >few times a year, with some positive results. > >Maybe that's why we so seldom hear about it in SF novels? > >Maryelizabeth > > >-- >******************************************************************* >Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 >7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 >San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 >http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: >mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com > >******************************************************************* > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 21:22:33 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Heather Stark Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alternative reproduction technology is widely available... (e.g. Cherryh (Cyteen et cetera). Bujold. Many others to numerous to spotlight....) but most treatments don't go into the nitty gritty that much - they mostly avoid the infrastructure implications. My opinion on the current design is very similar to my views on the human backbone...as in: if you were designing it from scratch, for optimal performance in current circumstances....you'd do it differently (and, for a quiet life, don't get me started on the subject of the horrible mishmash of stuff that lives in human knees...) As to whether pregnancy and childbirth is a reasonable compensation for the hassle of menstruation...I can't say from personal experience. But I think there is reason for pride, more than shame. Doesn't the yearning for physical connection stem from all our origins, of being physically connected to our mothers? Placenta, then breast. I speak of intimacy. quietly, Heather ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:12:32 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: menses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If it was the article I read, the most bizarre part was there seems to be some validity to the cause and effect of cultural/peer pressure. Look at Brittany Spears, develop breasts earlier... Robin Reid wrote: > Not to mention articles about girls hitting puberty at age 9 and 10 and > earlier (breasts, periods, etc.) possibly because of the level of hormones > in beef, etc. > > And the problems that causes.... > > I'm just rereading Tepper's _Gibbon's Decline and Fall_ in which a "virus" > has been spread over the earth reducing male and female secondary sexual > attributes and appetites in order to help create equality for men and > women, heh heh heh.... > > Robin > > At 09:28 AM 02/02/2001 -0800, you wrote: > >Actually, wasn't there a recent article about the increased number of > >years spent with a menstrual cycle (due to extended life spans and > >postponement of child birth) causing some health problems for women? Our > >bodies haven't caught up to our choices yet, in some ways. The article > >said some women are using birth control pills, etc. to only menstruate a > >few times a year, with some positive results. > > > >Maybe that's why we so seldom hear about it in SF novels? > > > >Maryelizabeth > > > > > >-- > >******************************************************************* > >Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 > >7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 > >San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 > >http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: > >mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com > > > >******************************************************************* > > > >------------------------------------------------------ > >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:29:11 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: menses In-Reply-To: <3A7B30D0.22362931@mystgalaxy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:12 PM 2/02/01 -0800, you wrote: >If it was the article I read, the most bizarre part was there seems to be some >validity to the cause and effect of cultural/peer pressure. Look at Brittany >Spears, develop breasts earlier... There's also evidence that stress impacts on precocious puberty, abused children often enter puberty early etc - its certainly well-known in other mammals with population stress - Hormones in animal meats are the least likely, (that issue is a trade issue which has nothing to do with health) - but after World War 2 with improved public health standards in the Western world at least - eg. the eradication of many childhood diseases, introduction of flouridated water supplies (along with chlorine amongst other things) and improved nutrition have had a huge impact on children's and adolescent health, particularly on bone growth and density, thryoid & parathyroid function leading to increased average height & weight, and earlier onset of puberty in both sexes. Because so little data has ever been collected on women's menstrual health it is difficult to make any firm conclusions over time - but there is also evidence that women's menstrual cycles have changed dramatically over the centuries, more prolonged, more frequent and heavier bleeding - due to differences in fat:muscle ratios, inadequate physical exercise, changing work patterns, increased stress levels and inappropriate diets. The best example to illustrate this is sportswomen, who tend to have light periods, and of shorter duration than average, or lose them altogether for varying periods of time. This is similar to the cycles of nomadic women in traditional cultures who are walking great distances and have higher muscle:fat ratios - this is one of the reasons women's health workers are trying to promote sports for girls in schools and for women throughout life - obesity on the other hand, is correlated with heavier, more painful, more frequent and more prolonged periods - leading to other health problems like iron deficiency, renal, adrenal and thryoid imbalances. Sedentary life-styles eg. sitting for long periods at office computer terminals doesn't help either - and nor does stress levels. Uterine disease in women over 35 is correlated with incidence of heart disease in men - which again, supports the stress hypothesis. In the Western world, 1 in 4 white women over the age of 35 have uterine disease - approximately half, or 1 in 8 will have debilitating symptoms, and its the leading cause of hysterectomy in older women, eg - fibroids, polyps, endometriosis etc. In African-American women this is higher still at 1 in 3..and similar in some Asian groups and central/south American groups it is also higher than white women, though it is much lower in some other cultures - which also tends to support the stress-illness factors in dysfunctional menstrual bleeding patterns - As for hormonal contraceptives such as the Pill, and injectables such as Depo - these have never been useful for a large majority of women anyway - so consider yourself lucky if it works without problems. Thousands of women died or suffered massive cerebral strokes over a 10-15 year period in at least 8 countries - took a lot of experimentation, & a lot of tragic mistakes to "get it right" with the 3rd and 4th generation Pills on the market today. And you can thank some of these women who became disabled for life, for lobbying govts & pharmaceutical companies to provide things like Patient Information leaflets describing risks etc, and 'ethical informed consent' legislation etc. as women do vary enormously - eg. two sisters can both take Depo, and one loses her periods for months, and the other starts haemorrhaging etc. This is one of the many reasons women's health activists are opposed to Norplant, particularly in very young women who may not have completed bone development. Females are different to males in bone-setting processes in adolescence - females lower spines & pelvises do not finish 'fusing' until late adolescence or even well into the 20s. Using hormones before the bones have finished fusing has been partly blamed for pregnancy problems, spinal problems, arthritis and osteoporosis in later life. Oestrogen-based preps are also often contraindicated in women over 35 due to the increased incidence of uterine diseases mentioned above - even more so if they smoke, or are overweight etc. progestogen-only pills are usually prescribed instead - but these have an increased incidence of 'break-through spotting' and other side-effects, as well as reduced efficacy. Cheers - Julieanne:) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:41:15 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kate: > Well, "Even the Queen" turned me on to Connie Willis forever. I > thought it was hilarious. I would have found it funnier if I hadn't guessed in .5 s what the "Cyclists" were. :-) > And I didn't think it was at all anti-feminist: taking one side of > a debate WITHIN feminism, sure. Marge Piercy and Shulamith > Firestone also argue that technology as a way out of the biological > specifics of femininity is a positive step for women - are you > going to call them anti-feminist too? Sure, if they put across the idea that women's oppression is the fault of our own hopelessly malfunctioning bodies. > I mean really, what is there to *celebrate* about menstruation? > Sure, if you are revolted at the idea of tasting your own menstrual > blood, you've got a long way to go, baby - but that doesn't mean > you have to quaff the stuff down whenever you get the opportunity. I doubt many women celebrate their menstruation - though some do, and we should certainly be honouring both menarche and menopause instead of treating them like embarrassing malfunctions. But that's completely irrelevant. The implication of Willis' story is that once we kill our periods, we get equality; *that's* what's been holding us back. The chat about the awfulness of periods is amusing, but it also conveys the idea that periods cripple women. For some women, they are severely debilitating; for most women, they're just a nuisance. We can kill our periods *right now* if we want to, and in fact, many of us do - and yet, I suspect Ashcroft (and in Australia, Howard) pose a greater threat to our equality than the rags do. Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 14:18:05 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010202182651.00aac100@pop.ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Julieanne: > I thought Firestone rethought later? Partly because she missed > issues of control & power of things like reprotech - remember she > wrote "pregnancy is barbaric" over a decade before there was even a > hint of reprotech becoming a reality - and later writings started > to question just *who* has control & power over such things? > Sure isnt women. In some machine tech artificial reproductive > future - I wonder whether there will be 'equal' access to it? The Australian government is moving to limit access to assisted reproduction - usually AI, though IVF too - for lesbian couples and single women. While a lot of technology has obvious benefits for women, technology by itself guarantees us nothing. [snipped lots of excellent thoughts] Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 14:18:05 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Edmund Cooper? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Not quite sure if this is strictly on topic! But from the latest Ansible (issue 163, Feb 2001): "EDMUND COOPER was mentioned in _A161_, provoking a rant from _Ian Covell_ about the fading of this author's reputation. Apparently his publishers Hodder & Stoughton held grimly on to book rights for decades, refusing either to revert or reprint, so that `gradually he slipped from the current crop; commentary by the feminist mafia didn't help.' [...] " I just wondered what the "feminist mafia" had to say about Cooper's writing... :-) Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:53:44 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: stories about menses In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010201223329.00b642b0@mail.superior.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:38 PM 2/1/01 -0500, you wrote: > I was recently reading a lot online about menstruation and the story >"Even the Queen" by Connie Willis was mentioned on The Museum of >Menstruation, so I read it. I was a little disappointed in the story >because I wanted to read something more "menstrual positive." I couldn't >tell if Willis was making fun of her characters or if she was agreeing with >them (this was my first experience with reading Willis, so I'm not sure >what her usual tone is). So I was wondering if there are any other SFF >stories or novels about menstruation and if any of them might celebrate >it. It will probably take you a while to find a copy, but get hold of Sturgeon's _Some of Your Blood_, a sympathetic vampire story not decades but generations ahead of its time. Given the over-the-top characters in "Even the Queen", it's hard not to see it as, in large part, burlesque. I don't recall the exact phrasing, but Connie has said that she wrote it because she was getting hasled for not writing enough about "women's issues". She barely _has_ a "usual tone". Her writing is all over the map. Much of it, arguably, isn't science fiction at all, but she's so beyond category that we get her ("hooray!" says I). Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:54:02 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <004e01c08d5e$42a00740$7769ff3e@has-home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:22 PM 2/2/01 -0000, Heather Stark wrote: > >My opinion on the current design is very similar to my views on the human >backbone...as in: > > if you were designing it from scratch, for optimal performance in >current circumstances....you'd do it differently (and, for a quiet life, >don't get me started on the subject of the horrible mishmash of stuff that >lives in human knees...) > >As to whether pregnancy and childbirth is a reasonable compensation for the >hassle of menstruation...I can't say from personal experience. But I think >there is reason for pride, more than shame. > Upright posture is still a rough draft, evolutionarily: fallen arches; varicose veins; hip problems; the combinations of problems of babies with larger heads and people (most importantly here, female people!) with narrower pelvises, those pelvises holding the internal organs instead of slinging them from the spine, leading to hernias; myriad varieties of back prolems; . . . I'm not up-to-the-minute on it, but human sexuality, including the menstrual cycle, is very distinct from that of other great apes. How it fits into the evolution is still not really understood. Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 17:57:33 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: stories about menses In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010202235344.00ff79d0@pop.enteract.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT To answer the original question :-), see if you can find a copy of Stephen Dedman's "From Whom All Blessings Flow" (it's in "Centaurus: The best of Australian science fiction"). Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 01:36:38 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: menstruation Ever since I first heard of the book Is Menstruation Obsolete by Elsimar M. Coutinho I thought this was another attempt by a man to show that in the ways a woman's body differs from a man's it is pathological. It is a normal part of life to menstruate. In fact, since women outnumber men, I would say that not to menstruate, gestate or lactate between the years of 10 -16 to 40 or 60 is abnormal. Perhaps the inability of men to do so is the cause of their shorter life span. Perhaps our hormonal cycles linking us with the cycles of the moon, the cycles of life are the cause of the extension of our lives. He says women spend much of their lives anemic. We do have a lower amount of hemoglobin than men, but perhaps rather than our being anemic, they spend their lives being polycythemic leading to increased rates of hypertension and heart disease. He states that in the past women did not menstruate regularly. They either spent their lives pregnant or died young. As a proponent of artificial chemical contraception perhaps he is unaware of the fact that women throughout history have used herbs both to prevent pregnancy and to promote abortion. Yes, menstruation can be uncomfortable but so can life. Perhaps the source of much of the discomfort is our insistence on continuing life as usual - pretending we don't menstruate. After reading The Red Tent by Anita Diamant I think most women wish they could partake in a monthly ritual of rest and retreat, reflection, meditation, and sharing with other women. Such a ritual surrounding menstruation would make it, I think, a time of celebration rather than agony. It's not our physiologies that need to be changed to make us better able to deal with life. Rather changing our response to our physiologies can make us realize that we are life, our bodies are life, our cycles are life. Working 9 to 5, 5 days a week with 2 weeks vacation a year is not life, it's just what we've learned to accept as normal. Whew, sounding preachy, but it's a topic of importance to me. This site was posted on another list. http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/scripts/article.asp?mador=19&datee=2/2/01&id=1 09065> This is an article about Rabbi Shira Israel Title of article: "Menstruation is not a dirty word. Period." Amazing that the topic of menstruation is being discussed now on 3 lists I belong to. Synchronicity again. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 02:10:44 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Gordon Dickson In-Reply-To: <200102030601.AAA55824@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi- I just found out that SF author Gordon R. Dickson died yesterday. I remember reading everything of his when I was young... In any case, while he was IMO an excellent SF author, he had many of the typical blindspots about gender that common among SF authors of his generation. The most fascinating incidence of this was when I was reading his novel _Timestorm_. This book was written in 1977, and Dickson attempted to include several important 3-dimensional female characters. The odd thing was that in my estimation he failed utterly in that task. The book was interesting and reasonably well-written, but the female characters were very slightly more fleshed examples of typical adventure fiction female sterotypes of the 50s and 60s. I do find it odd that a writer would attempt to avoid sexist writing and fail. Has anyone seen examples of this sort of problem in any other authors' work?. Also, has anyone here found any examples of reasonably non-sexist SF from the 50s or 60s? Blessings- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 02:23:55 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <200102030601.AAA55824@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Julieanne wrote: > Shulamith Firestone wrote 'The Dialectic of Sex' in the 70s, I think. > The most famous quote is "Pregnancy is Barbaric!.... Childbirth > hurts!" - which is in a chapter concerned with reproduction etc - and > Firestone speculates that technology might prove beneficial to women > in removing the "tyranny of reproduction" - but its only a small part > of the whole book which looks at various areas of sexual politics. I > suspect it is out-of-print by now - but it still appears on > University/College reading lists as a standard text, so I would think > most libraries would have it. > > Juliet Mitchell's 'Sexual Politics' written around the same time is > also worthwhile - I see these theories/analyses as very early > developments in feminist theory, by the early 1980s this development > and growth of thinking had continued to expand by feminists in other > areas of femininity and biology etc: > > "Of Woman Born : Motherhood as Institution & Experience" - Adrienne > Rich " Gyn / Ecology " - Mary Daly (warning: these 2 books are, in > places, emotionally painful to read) > > "The Transsexual Empire" - Janice Raymond ( I *think* it was her:) - > which focusses on the "men with boobs" issues. _The Dialetic of Sex_ is interesting, & I'm unfamiliar with the three books listed below it. However, I've heard much comment about The _Transsexual Empire_ from my various transsexual friends (I know a number of both Female to Male and Male to Female transsexuals). I took a look at it to see if the comments were justified, and IMHO they very much were. I very much hope you are not recommending that book for serious reading, it is a vile, hurtful, and bigoted book that should rightly be shelved with neo- nazi tracts and other forms of hate literature. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 09:09:42 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: menstruation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joyce, with respect: I can't agree that I am abnormal because I haven't chosen to gestate and lactate. Nina ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:10:47 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Deborah A. Oosterhouse" Subject: Re: menstruation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A non-fiction book on the subject (partly anyway) is Natalie Angier's *Woman: An Intimate Geography*. This book received fabulous reviews when it first came out and, although I haven't read through the entire volume yet, I have found them justly deserved. While not really coming to any conclusions on anything, she does an incredible job of pulling together various perspectives and bits of information on female biology. Very interesting. Deborah ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 15:06:42 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Edmund Cooper? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kate Orman asked >I just wondered what the "feminist mafia" had to say about >Cooper's writing... :-) 'Transparently misogynistic' are the words that spring to mind, from what I recall of reading one or two of them in the 70s, plus an interview he gave to some SF magazine of the time Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:54:00 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Gordon Dickson In-Reply-To: <200102031010.FAA23987@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:10 AM 2/3/01 -0800, John Snead wrote: >Hi- > >I just found out that SF author Gordon R. Dickson died yesterday. >I remember reading everything of his when I was young... In any >case, while he was IMO an excellent SF author, he had many of >the typical blindspots about gender that common among SF >authors of his generation. The most fascinating incidence of this >was when I was reading his novel _Timestorm_. This book was >written in 1977, and Dickson attempted to include several important >3-dimensional female characters. The odd thing was that in my >estimation he failed utterly in that task. The two female characters I especially recall from _Time Storm_ are the young woman who was very disturbed, and the woman with the dogs. By definition, someone who is extremely emotionally disturbed is not typical, but I thought that the woman with the kennel, while she was slightly off the focus of the story, was prety strong and realistic. She dealt with hard situations and made hard choices. I don't know if it was ever published, but Gordy complained that there is no female equivalent to the word "hero". ("Heroine" certainly isn't!) He pointed to Pilar in _For Whom the Bell Tolls_ as an example of what he meant. Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:02:28 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: menstruation In-Reply-To: <003301c08dc4$d0cee3e0$2aaaea18@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:36 AM 2/3/01 -0800, Joyce Jones wrote: > >Yes, menstruation can be uncomfortable but so can life. Perhaps the source >of much of the discomfort is our insistence on continuing life as usual - >pretending we don't menstruate. After reading The Red Tent by Anita Diamant >I think most women wish they could partake in a monthly ritual of rest and >retreat, reflection, meditation, and sharing with other women. Such a >ritual surrounding menstruation would make it, I think, a time of >celebration rather than agony. > >Whew, sounding preachy, but it's a topic of importance to me. > Hmmm . . . I wonder how the mikvah ocunts? In Jewish law, a woman is separate while she's menstruating, and must bathe at the end of the prescribed time. A "mikvah" is a communal bath for ritual bathings. (And to head off a red herring tangent (sorry about mixing my metaphores), please dont' go off on the word "unclean" in "the Bible". "Unclean" is the word in the King James Version; the original doesn't ahve an English equivalent.) >http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/scripts/article.asp?mador=19&datee=2/2/01&id= 109065> > >This is an article about Rabbi Shira Israel >Title of article: "Menstruation is not a dirty word. Period." > Years ago (decades, actually), there was a Sunday morning talking heads show on Sex Education with a priest, a minister, and a rabbi. The priest and the minister had their turns, followed by the rabbi, who said, "I don't know what you're talking about. Our education is study of Talmud. The Talmud has six divisions, one of which is 'Women'. We've been doing this for thousands of years, and it doesn't seem to have hurt us!" Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 14:07:48 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: stories about menses: after Rest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Along with SOME OF YOUR BLOOD, the most "positive" relevant text I recall was not exclusively text, but a WIMMEN'S COMIX #13 (Supernatural Issue) story-strip entitled "Claire de Lune" by Barb Lakey, iirc. A deft fantasy. And probably harder to locate than the Sturgeon novel... TM -----Original Message----- From: Neil Rest [mailto:NeilRest@ENTERACT.COM] It will probably take you a while to find a copy, but get hold of Sturgeon's _Some of Your Blood_, a sympathetic vampire story not decades but generations ahead of its time. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 10:52:15 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: Edmund Cooper? In-Reply-To: <00c801c08df6$9a4d43c0$5283a5d5@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Date sent: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 15:06:42 -0000 Send reply to: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Edmund Cooper? To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Kate Orman asked > >I just wondered what the "feminist mafia" had to say about > >Cooper's writing... :-) Lesley: > 'Transparently misogynistic' are the words that spring to mind, > from what I recall of reading one or two of them in the 70s, plus > an interview he gave to some SF magazine of the time Oh my gods - the answer to my own question has been staring me in the face at the local book exchange for months. Cooper wrote "Who Needs Men?". Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 23:11:20 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: menstruation Nina M. Osier wrote: "Joyce, with respect: I can't agree that I am abnormal because I haven't chosen to gestate and lactate." Ah but Nina, that's not what I wrote. I wrote "since women outnumber men, I would say that not to menstruate, gestate or lactate between the years of 10 -16 to 40 or 60 is abnormal." I believe women throughout history have had means to choose whether or not to gestate and/or lactate. By choosing not to do either of the other they continue to menstruate regularly. My argument is that if more than half the population does something then it cannot be considered abnormal. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 00:00:53 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: Gordon Dickson In-Reply-To: <200102040600.AAA25118@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Neil Rest wrote: > > At 02:10 AM 2/3/01 -0800, John Snead wrote: > >Hi- > >I just found out that SF author Gordon R. Dickson died > yesterday. >I remember reading everything of his when I was young... > In any >case, while he was IMO an excellent SF author, he had many of > >the typical blindspots about gender that common among SF >authors of > his generation. The most fascinating incidence of this >was when I > was reading his novel _Timestorm_. This book was >written in 1977, > and Dickson attempted to include several important >3-dimensional > female characters. The odd thing was that in my >estimation he failed > utterly in that task. > > The two female characters I especially recall from _Time Storm_ are > the young woman who was very disturbed, and the woman with the dogs. > By definition, someone who is extremely emotionally disturbed is not > typical, but I thought that the woman with the kennel, while she was > slightly off the focus of the story, was prety strong and realistic. > She dealt with hard situations and made hard choices. The worst example I remember was the woman who was the leader of Hawaii. She seemed to supposed to be a strong (if not necessarily incredibly sympathetic) female leader, and she came across far more as a stereotypical domineering woman from a TV sitcom. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 05:12:56 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: In response to Deborah Oosterhouse: Woman: An Intimate Geography Book Review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a book review I wrote (posted at rambles.net), of the work you mentioned. thought it would interest you and the rest of the list. I loved the book too! Amy aharlib@worldnet.att.net Woman: An Intimate Geography by Natalie Angier (Anchor Books, NY, March 2000, $15.00, trade paperback, ISBN#: 0-385-49841-1). The 'geography' that Pulitzer Prize-winning science writer Angier refers to in the title of her book ranges from the southernmost clitoris and associated vulval landmarks to the high summits of the brain in her exploration of new theories of female anatomy, physiology, psychology, biology and various permutations of these topics across the life span. In gorgeous prose displaying high style and metaphor, wit and verve, Angier by turns is serious, angry, joyous,and loving; at times didactic and hortatory; at other times confessional, the result being a book brimming in information. Topics discussed in this "scientific fantasia of womanhood" include: ovulation, conception and birth; the social and physiological function of breasts; orgasm, mate selection and child-rearing behaviour; the complex workings of estrogen; hysterectomy; muscle strength and female aggression and bonding. Particularly interesting are: a chapter on love in which Angier observes that at least one hormone, oxytocin, may in part subserve the emotion; the interludes where the author speaks frankly of her own sexuality, pregnancy and childbirth; the passages about the war between mothers and daughters and about aggression as the other side of love; and the discourse on the importance of older women in early cultural/societal evolution. Angier, by analyzing current scientific theories and providing her own interpretations of gender studies and evolutionary psychology, has produced a creative, thought-provoking book unlike any other. It is replete with original material that is utterly fascinating. Her wide-ranging celebration of the female body not only engages the intellect, it also more significantly, offers a rigorous challenge to male-oriented theories of biology. This treasure trove of knowledge, beautifully conveyed, as well as of questions that have yet to be answered, deserves to be widely read by men as well as by women. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 09:08:31 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: menstruation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you for clarifying, Joyce. I have found much of this thread difficult to relate to, since menstruation recently did its level best to kill me and I'm not feeling at all warm and fuzzy about it just now. :-) So perhaps it's not surprising that I misread. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 14:19:42 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: menstruation stories MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C08EB5.8421B440" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C08EB5.8421B440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a very distant memory of Jody Scott's _Passing for Human_ and _I = Vampire_ being about a female alien/vampire nourished by menstrual = blood, but as I don't think I ever finished either of them and it was = years ago, I can't be absolutely sure. They were very much non-generic = sf/vampire fiction. Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C08EB5.8421B440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a very distant memory of Jody = Scott's=20 _Passing for Human_ and _I Vampire_ being about a female alien/vampire = nourished=20 by menstrual blood, but as I don't think I ever finished either of them = and it=20 was years ago, I can't be absolutely sure. They were very much = non-generic=20 sf/vampire fiction.
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
websit= e http://homepages.primex.= co.uk/~lesleyah
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C08EB5.8421B440-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:24:01 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Men with boobs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer wrote: <> I'm obviously not watching the right movies. From what I can see the cinema is still full of the old standards - woman as two-dimensional secondary character - woman as game prize for the successful hero - woman as neurotic mill-stone, and my own personal least favourite - woman as moronic quick-fix plot saver. To explain what I mean by the last standard female role I have a mental vision that goes something like this... ================= scene: scriptwriter's office for the next Hollywood SF blockbuster. Scriptwriter A: OK. So the monster's outside the base. How does it get in without raising the alarm? Scriptwriter B (thinks a moment): One of the characters could open the door for some fresh air, see the monster coming then run away and hide. Scriptwriter A (shakes head): The audience won't buy it. With monsters around the person would have to be totally stupid. Plus everyone in the base is armed - any normal person would let off a few shots just out of reflex. Just hiding would be pathetic. Scriptwriter B: No problem, we can make the character a woman. ================= This scenario is more common in the later stages of a film. In the earlier parts the role of moronic quick-fix plot saver is often given to the 'weedy guy', however this character type has a very limited life-expectancy and rarely makes it to the second half of a film. Jane ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:12:47 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Some of Your Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil wrote <> I've never read the book but about 25 years back I saw a stage-play based on it. There were just two actors and the only props were two chairs and an overhead projector. I don't know who did the adaptation, but it was utterly riveting - one of the best bits of theatre I've seen. Doubtless the play is vastly more difficult to come across than the book but I would recommend it wholeheartedly. Jane ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:19:35 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: menstruation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joyce wrote: <> Do you have any more information - which plants, where and when used, and, most importantly, percentage success rate? I must admit, from my knowledge of history, I find your claim slightly surprising. Jane ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:47:47 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: menstruation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Joyce wrote: > ><of the fact that women throughout history have used herbs both to prevent >pregnancy and to promote abortion.>> Jane: >Do you have any more information - which plants, where and when used, and, >most importantly, percentage success rate? I must admit, from my knowledge >of history, I find your claim slightly surprising. > This is argued by John Riddle in _Eve's Herbs_ - a lot of people are very convinced by this book, but as a historian of birth control (among other things) I'm not - see my review posted at http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/riddlerv.htm I would be inclined to say that women have used various herbal preparations (and other devices, of greater or lesser efficacy - amulets just don't do the job, unfortunately, but for centuries were believed in) with the _intention_ of preventing or terminating pregnancy. Let us not forget that a significant proportion of pregnancies spontaneously terminate very soon after conception. Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah -----Original Message----- From: Jane Fletcher To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: 04 February 2001 16:31 Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] menstruation >Jane > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 12:50:40 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Frances Subject: Herbal contraception MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Flora Thompson in "Lark Rise to Candleford" mentions that the women of the village had a private use for pennyroyal, but judging from the size of their families it wasn't remarkably effective. Joyce wrote: <> >Do you have any more information - which plants, where and when used, and, >most importantly, percentage success rate? I must admit, from my knowledge >of history, I find your claim slightly surprising. Jane ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 13:37:29 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Frances Subject: Re: Herbal contraception MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try a search on google.com under "herbal contraception" : no shortage of information. Frances ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 22:00:33 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: menstruation In-Reply-To: <004801c08ec8$14ec2e80$f424fc3e@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:19 PM 2/4/01 -0000, Jane Fletcher wrote: ><of the fact that women throughout history have used herbs both to prevent >pregnancy and to promote abortion.>> > >Do you have any more information - which plants, where and when used, and, >most importantly, percentage success rate? I must admit, from my knowledge >of history, I find your claim slightly surprising. > I recall a crystal of salt dipped in olive oil as a vaginal suppository being Roman, but have no citation. However, read chapter 5 of the book of Numbers carefully (with your filters for several-thousand-year-old attitudes!). Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 01:44:21 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: herbal contraceptives Below is some information posted on a pagan midwifery list. Also the google search site was excellent. I'm not an historian, but I've read other references to the topic. Some statistics I've read say 20 to 80% effective. My mother used post coital douching for 10 years as a contraceptive and conceived only once (when circumstances didn't allow her to douche) Would I recommend such a method, NO. But it worked for her. Contraception is easier for some than for others, alas. Joyce -------------------- As John Riddle wrote in an article in Archaeology magazine in 1994, "In ancient times, contrary to what historians have been telling us for the past several centuries, many women practiced birth-control with little interference from religious or political authorities. The knowledge of the plants that allowed them to do so and the lapse of that knowledge by the time of the Renaissance is a story that is only now emerging with clarity." a book that gives lots of information about many, many herbs used traditionally in various cultures as emmenagogues, abortifacients, and for sterilization-either short term or permanently. It's called "Herbal Abortion- The Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge", by Uni M. Tiamat. It isn't apparently in print ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 03:03:15 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: Men with boobs In-Reply-To: <200102050601.AAA15998@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jane Fletcher wrote: > Jennifer wrote: > > < women characters in movies and books who are basically men with boobs, > and it's made me think a lot about that concept in both fiction and in > real life. >> > > I'm obviously not watching the right movies. From what I can see the > cinema is still full of the old standards - woman as two-dimensional > secondary character - woman as game prize for the successful hero - > woman as neurotic mill-stone, and my own personal least favourite - > woman as moronic quick-fix plot saver. Agreed, I'm also not terribly certain the "men with boobs" thing is to much of a problem both because I haven't seen much of it, and because it does seem *far* better than the current attitude in almost all mainstream movies and many TV shows where women are at best sidekicks and at worst toys or decorations. My least favorite niche for female characters are in male buddy or rival pictures, where the mandatory women there for the two men to lust after to prove that they aren't gay and interested in each other. The only virtue of such stereotypical shows and movies is that at least they lend themselves easily to slash fiction. I do find it interesting that TV is slowly getting better. I can think of a number of recent shows with interesting, detailed female characters (Buffy & Farscape now and to a lesser extent the prior shows Deep Space 9 & Babylon 5). OTOH, Hollywood movies are quite terrible wrt having strong or even non-trivial female characters. I guess that the financial pressures involved in movies vs TV or the relative structures of the two industries make movies far more conservative than television. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 03:17:33 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: menstruation In-Reply-To: <200102050601.AAA15998@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jane Fletcher > Joyce wrote: > > < unaware of the fact that women throughout history have used herbs both > to prevent pregnancy and to promote abortion.>> > > Do you have any more information - which plants, where and when used, > and, most importantly, percentage success rate? I must admit, from my > knowledge of history, I find your claim slightly surprising. They exist, I've studied herbalism a bit. However, almost all fall into two categories, the often ineffective ones, or the often dangerous ones (some are unfortunately both). While there are some plants from the Amazon which may have be highly effective contraceptives (my last info was a few years back and studies were still going on), there was nothing in the whole of Europe which was anything more than a desperation measure. Certainly many of the safe contraceptive methods reduced the risk of conception, but nothing like modern ones do. Most modern methods have at most 1-3% chance of failure. I know of no traditional European method that can do anything better than maybe reduce the risk of conception by a factor of 2 or possibly 3. Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation about herbalism out there (especially on the net). Many physicians say all herbal remedies all useless, while many herbalists vastly overstate the effectiveness of their products while also stating that "natural products are always superior". Most of the more objective data I've seen on any of this has been in the field of medical anthropology. Then again, since I did grad work in anthro, I could easily have missed useful info in other fields. One source I will recommend for further information is Therapeutic Herbalism: A correspondence course in Phytotherapy by David L. Hoffmann. I've no idea where to get this book having received a xerox of it 5 years ago, as a gift from the High Priestess of the coven I was in. The author is an herbalist, but impressed me with his medical knowledge and the fact that he actually checked his data carefully. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:06:15 -0500 Reply-To: scolling@uwo.ca Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Collingwood Subject: Re: menstruation stories MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For me, the ultimate menstruation story is by Suzy McKee Charnas. "Boobs" first published in Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine 1989 revised for THE SKIN OF THE SOUL: NEW HORROR STORIES BY WOMEN (ed Lisa Tuttle, Women's Press, 1990) Can also be found in THE PENGUIN BOOK OF MODERN FANTASY BY WOMEN, ed Susan Williams, 1995. A great story from a wonderful writer. Sharon Collingwood ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:52:43 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: ILLICIT PASSAGE -- Feminist SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have made contact with Alice Nunn, who is just back from a two week bush walk evidently (lucky duck!). We are working out the details for a bulk shipment of ILLICIT PASSAGE to Mysterious Galaxy. We are using the slower, cheaper method of shipping. When the books arrive, MG will sell them for a cost of $6.50 US plus shipping -- a total of about $10 US for US addresses, more for shipping out of the US. At this point I am ordering very conservatively, just a couple of copies more than have already been spoken for, so if you are interested and have not already done so, please contact me off list immediately. Will let everyone know when they arrive! Pax, Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:16:11 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: Broad Universe listserve (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII fyi y'all Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- BROAD UNIVERSE HAS A LISTSERVE! It's an open listserve and fans of women's writing and artwork in science fiction, fantasy and horror are welcomed to join. Women, men, transgendered -- anyone interested in the works of women in the field is welcome. As a founding member of the listserve, you can help get the fun started -- to begin discussing books by your favorite women authors, to appreciate the work of women artists, to brainstorm fun panels for upcoming conventions, to laugh about weird cover art and in general, meet others with the same interest as you. Authors can use the listserve to coordinate joint book tours, to announce upcoming readings and signings, and in general to let readers know what you're doing. If you'd like to join the listserve, send a message to listmother Sarah Palmero at broaduniverse_subscribe@yahoogroups.com. Let Sarah know if you want to receive posts all together once the compilation reaches a certain size (digest mode) -- otherwise you'll get them individually as they're sent. At this point, our only rule is No Flames. With the added exhortation that if you don't understand the need for this endeavor, it's probably not the right place for you. If you want to ask nicely, we'll reply. If you only want to berate the effort, Sarah will remove you from the list. Other than that, we'll work out the details as we go along. And keep your eye on our website, www.broaduniverse.org. We've got a book catalog in the works and a newsletter coming out in a few months. See you there! Amy Hanson ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/0/_/_/_/981410628/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 21:47:22 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Men with boobs/Women in flicks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/5/2001 6:11:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, sneadj@MINDSPRING.COM writes: << I do find it interesting that TV is slowly getting better. I can think of a number of recent shows with interesting, detailed female characters (Buffy & Farscape now and to a lesser extent the prior shows Deep Space 9 & Babylon 5). OTOH, Hollywood movies are quite terrible wrt having strong or even non-trivial female characters. I guess that the financial pressures involved in movies vs TV or the relative structures of the two industries make movies far more conservative than television. >> But at least it has changed a little in regards to movies. Take a look at Woman of the Year with TRacey and Hepburn. She has to change, not him. Hopefully, that would not happen if they did a remake. But you are right about the difference between two medias. I would hesitate to add Deep Space Nine, and even STar Trek (which some of my friends mention, not you), for the simple reason that the women wear a one piece uniform while the men wear what looks to be a far more comfortable two piece. Nice to see another Farscape watcher on the list. Chris ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 03:22:56 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Connie Willis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Kate O on "Even the Queen" : >I would have found it funnier if I hadn't guessed in .5 s what the >"Cyclists" were. :-) So did I. So did most readers, I would think. I didn't think the humour relied on that being a surprise. If it did, I assume she would have given them a less obvious name. > > And I didn't think it was at all anti-feminist: taking one side of > > a debate WITHIN feminism, sure. Marge Piercy and Shulamith > > Firestone also argue that technology as a way out of the biological > > specifics of femininity is a positive step for women - are you > > going to call them anti-feminist too? > >Sure, if they put across the idea that women's oppression is the >fault of our own hopelessly malfunctioning bodies. They don't. Neither do I. Neither does Connie Willis. > > I mean really, what is there to *celebrate* about menstruation? > > Sure, if you are revolted at the idea of tasting your own menstrual > > blood, you've got a long way to go, baby - but that doesn't mean > > you have to quaff the stuff down whenever you get the opportunity. > >I doubt many women celebrate their menstruation - though some >do, and we should certainly be honouring both menarche and >menopause instead of treating them like embarrassing >malfunctions. Who is suggesting we should treat menstruation as an embarrassing malfunction? Apart from the fact that the characters in "Even the Queen" spend 30 pages loudly discussing the subject in a public place (doesn't sound too cowed by shame to me), Willis's Traci describes having a period as "inconvenient, unpleasant, unbalancing and painful". I must say I agree with her. This does not make me ashamed of and/or disgusted by my bodily functions. >But that's completely irrelevant. The implication of Willis' story is >that once we kill our periods, we get equality; *that's* what's been >holding us back. I quote: "In the first fine flush of freedom after the Liberation, I had entertained hoped that it would change everything - that it would somehow do away with inequality...Of course it didn't. Men still make more money..." The chat about the awfulness of periods is >amusing, but it also conveys the idea that periods cripple women. >For some women, they are severely debilitating; for most women, >they're just a nuisance. Yes, precisely. What's to celebrate? We can kill our periods *right now* if we >want to, and in fact, many of us do - and yet, I suspect Ashcroft >(and in Australia, Howard) pose a greater threat to our equality than >the rags do. You bet we can. My ordinary little birth control pills take away the pain as well as the uncertainty about when I'm going to start bleeding in an inconvenient manner. They also allow me to choose to miss a month if I want (If I'm going camping that weekend, this is a VERY GOOD THING, let me tell you :). This all makes a significant difference to my personal comfort. I am under no illusions that it affects my ability to change government decisions. Neither, as far as I can tell, is Willis. Her point, in fact, seems to be that control of one's own body is the one truly universal issue capable of uniting women of all classes, generations and political affiliations in political action. It is clear that the ammenerol drug was something women _fought_ for. A political gain for the feminist movement, in fact. Such as access to IVF technology for unmarried women and lesbians. I think we have to be careful not to confuse arguments between different strands of feminism with feminist vs anti-feminist arguments. Both cyborg and eco-feminists have interesting arguments. But whether you want to control your own body or get decent social recognition for it, you are still taking a feminist position. Kate. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 21:30:35 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Melnjo Subject: Re: ILLICIT PASSAGE -- Feminist SF In-Reply-To: <3A7EF67B.2BD742A1@mystgalaxy.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Maryelizabeth; I'd like to order a copy of Illicit Passage, please. How do you prefer payment? Would a personal check for $10 for shipment to CO do, and is that a final number? Thanks for doing this. Mellen ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:13:18 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Broad Universe listserve (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laura this url doesn't work. I cut and pasted, too. (Don't always trust my typing.) phoebe w ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:15:37 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Broad Universe listserve (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/6/01 9:14:12 AM, Zozie@AOL.COM writes: << Laura this url doesn't work. >> Disregard... bear of little brain this morning. Maybe that 16 inches of snow we got last night! It's beautiful! xx phoebe w ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 06:59:10 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: ILLICIT PASSAGE -- Feminist SF Comments: To: melnjo@BWN.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MG accepts personal checks, Discover, Visa, Mastercard, American Express, and of course cash, should we be so fortunate as to have someone who can actually make it into the store. The US$10 for ILLICIT PASSAGE for book and shipping is not a firm number yet, it will depend on the exact cost of books and shipping from OZ when I have a finite total. Very happy to see so much interest on the list! :) Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 01:41:53 +0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dale Edmonds Subject: Re: menstruation Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This evening I was reading some of Alfred Wallace's lovely account of the Malay Archipelago (he traveled the region in the 1850s, and was one of the scientists involved with evolution) In a passage on the Dayak tribes of North Borneo (Sarawak, Malaysia/Indonesia) he mentions the size of their families - four or five children. He specifically mentioned that he believed this from conversation with the Dayaks, to be of all births, not just surviving children, and noted the great difference in family size compared to the seven or more that a European woman might have in that time. Given that the Dayaks married young, live in a fairly good area with food and good health, he refers to Malthus (the population guy) and says it seems to be the fertility of the women. I have no idea of the medical accuracy of this, but it seems superficially at least a sensible idea (And herbally, there are the usual assortment of traditional abortificants here, but I've never heard of a contraceptive plant) that the women worked in the fields from the age of 9 or 10, traveled great distances on foot and were in general lean and slight, thus their fertility (like modern female athletes) was affected, and they would then have fewer children (breastfeeding might come into play as well). I'm paraphrasing, but I have seen elsewhere that the spacing between children was about 4 years pre-industrial, mostly due to breast-feeding. If you had a just-adaquate diet and were physically very fit, subfertility would result - later puberty, earlier menopause, so you'd be fertile from 16 to your early forties, with time for just 3 to 5 children, without needing herbs. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dale Edmonds dale@oggham.com ---------- >From: Neil Rest >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] menstruation >Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:00 PM > > At 04:19 PM 2/4/01 -0000, Jane Fletcher wrote: > >><>of the fact that women throughout history have used herbs both to prevent >>pregnancy and to promote abortion.>> >> >>Do you have any more information - which plants, where and when used, and, >>most importantly, percentage success rate? I must admit, from my knowledge >>of history, I find your claim slightly surprising. >> > > I recall a crystal of salt dipped in olive oil as a vaginal suppository > being Roman, but have no citation. > > However, read chapter 5 of the book of Numbers carefully (with your filters > for several-thousand-year-old attitudes!). > > > Neil > > -- > NeilRest@enteract.com > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 18:26:38 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: menstruation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >In a passage on the Dayak tribes of North Borneo (Sarawak, >Malaysia/Indonesia) he mentions the size of their families - four or five >children. He specifically mentioned that he believed this from conversation >with the Dayaks, to be of all births, not just surviving children, and noted >the great difference in family size compared to the seven or more that a >European woman might have in that time. Besides prolonged breastfeeding, which was mentioned, there may have been cultural taboos on conjugal intercourse while the child was being breastfed or for specific periods after childbirth. Abstinence as a method of b-c tends not to be discussed much, but for a lengthy analysis of its significance to the late C19th British population decline, see (if you can lift it - 700+ pages in hardback!) Simon Szreter's _Fertility, Class and Gender_ Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:34:55 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: broad universe listserve Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ummm ... it seems like the person that had a problem got on after all, but here's a correction to the original list subscription info. for more info go to: www.broaduniverse.org Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 12:12:40 -0500 From: Amy Hanson Oops! Already a glitch. To sign up for the Broad Universe listserve, send an email to: broaduniverse-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. The previous address was incorrect. Sorry for the inconvenience. Amy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:39:08 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT [lots snipped] Kate Orman: > >I doubt many women celebrate their menstruation - though some > >do, and we should certainly be honouring both menarche and > >menopause instead of treating them like embarrassing > >malfunctions. Kate Dall: > Who is suggesting we should treat menstruation as an embarrassing > malfunction? The entire advertising industry, last time I looked. :-) Again: the question of celebrating menstruation is completely irrelevant. Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 00:27:27 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: menstruation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I have heard rumours that green (unripe) pawpaw is a fairly effective contraceptive, but I have no idea how credible the information is. Have any of you historians heard anything about this? (The story I heard was that it was currently being investigated by biochemists to find out its active ingredient). It wouldn't have been much use in Europe, of course, but it would certainly have been around in Malaysia. Although, as you point out, it probably wouldn't have been necessary in most cases. Kate. >From: Dale Edmonds >Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] menstruation >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 01:41:53 +0800 > >This evening I was reading some of Alfred Wallace's lovely account of the >Malay Archipelago (he traveled the region in the 1850s, and was one of the >scientists involved with evolution) > >In a passage on the Dayak tribes of North Borneo (Sarawak, >Malaysia/Indonesia) he mentions the size of their families - four or five >children. He specifically mentioned that he believed this from conversation >with the Dayaks, to be of all births, not just surviving children, and >noted >the great difference in family size compared to the seven or more that a >European woman might have in that time. Given that the Dayaks married >young, >live in a fairly good area with food and good health, he refers to Malthus >(the population guy) and says it seems to be the fertility of the women. > >I have no idea of the medical accuracy of this, but it seems superficially >at least a sensible idea (And herbally, there are the usual assortment of >traditional abortificants here, but I've never heard of a contraceptive >plant) that the women worked in the fields from the age of 9 or 10, >traveled >great distances on foot and were in general lean and slight, thus their >fertility (like modern female athletes) was affected, and they would then >have fewer children (breastfeeding might come into play as well). > >I'm paraphrasing, but I have seen elsewhere that the spacing between >children was about 4 years pre-industrial, mostly due to breast-feeding. If >you had a just-adaquate diet and were physically very fit, subfertility >would result - later puberty, earlier menopause, so you'd be fertile from >16 >to your early forties, with time for just 3 to 5 children, without needing >herbs. > >---------------------------------------------------------------- >Dale Edmonds >dale@oggham.com > >---------- > >From: Neil Rest > >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > >Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] menstruation > >Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:00 PM > > > > > At 04:19 PM 2/4/01 -0000, Jane Fletcher >wrote: > > > >><unaware > >>of the fact that women throughout history have used herbs both to >prevent > >>pregnancy and to promote abortion.>> > >> > >>Do you have any more information - which plants, where and when used, >and, > >>most importantly, percentage success rate? I must admit, from my >knowledge > >>of history, I find your claim slightly surprising. > >> > > > > I recall a crystal of salt dipped in olive oil as a vaginal suppository > > being Roman, but have no citation. > > > > However, read chapter 5 of the book of Numbers carefully (with your >filters > > for several-thousand-year-old attitudes!). > > > > > > Neil > > > > -- > > NeilRest@enteract.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 00:43:03 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Connie Willis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >>Kate Orman: > > >I doubt many women celebrate their menstruation - though some > > >do, and we should certainly be honouring both menarche and > > >menopause instead of treating them like embarrassing > > >malfunctions. > >Kate Dall: > > > Who is suggesting we should treat menstruation as an embarrassing > > malfunction? Kate Orman: >The entire advertising industry, last time I looked. :-) Again: the >question of celebrating menstruation is completely irrelevant. So call the advertising industry anti-feminist, not Connie Willis. And what about that one with the dog, huh? ;) [Reference for Australians only, or at least I hope so...] But why is the question of celebrating menstruation irrelevant? It seems to be a major theme in your side of the argument. (the eco-feminist loonies, that is) Kate the cyber-feminist loony >Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ >"I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 01:32:27 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: menstruation was: Connie Willis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Julieanne wrote: (me): > >>Well, "Even the Queen" turned me on to Connie Willis forever. I thought >it > >>was hilarious. And I didn't think it was at all anti-feminist: taking >one > >>side of a debate WITHIN feminism, sure. Marge Piercy and Shulamith >Firestone > >>also argue that technology as a way out of the biological specifics of > >>femininity is a positive step for women - are you going to call them > >>anti-feminist too? >I thought Firestone rethought later? Probably. She was very young when she wrote _The Dialectic of Sex_, what 25? I'd still call it a feminist book, though. Whether or not she changed her alignment within feminism later is irrelevant. I am not arguing that either Firestone's book or a 30 page humorous satirical story have all the answers right, just that they shouldn't be called anti-feminist because they disagree with the bases of another strand of feminist thought. >later writings started to question just *who* has control & >power over such things? >Sure isnt women. In some machine tech artificial reproductive future - I >wonder whether there will be 'equal' access to it? A very good question, and one that is of great concern to cyber-feminists. However, instead of rejecting the technology totally, we fight to gain access to it. As did the women in "Even the Queen". >As for Marge Piercy I thought it was the one aspect of her utopia in 'Woman >on the Edge of Time' that didn't quite gel for me - a character says "we >all had to give up our power bases"... like this totally mythical "power" >of having babies is a one-to-one "equal" exchange for the huge powerbases >of men? Like they don't have enough already? Ahahahahahahaha... As I remember it was phrased more as if women had to give up their one tiny little power base in exchange for men giving up their really huge one, so that no one gender had total control of any social institution. Both men and women had access to all social roles, including motherhood. >>Methinx these authors have personal issues surrounding dislike of their >>own >biology to deal with - rather than work for a world in which women's >biology can "fit" comfortably and equally alongside men's - (it is after >all - human biology) we have to get rid of it, or reconstruct women's lives >and bodies to "fit" the male biological norms, or alternatively masculine >fantasies of "ideal" women - who have huge boobs, (that never lactate), no >body hair, no smells, no sweats, no secretions, no stretch-marks, ... Really? Have you read much of Piercy's work? There's an awful lot of it, and I'd have a tough time finding anything that fit that description. >when people yadda, yadda about 'Biology is Destiny" - I like to stir them >up by asking - , yeah - but *WHOSE* biology? Are we all destined to adopt >male biology, along with male sexuality, male heirarchies, male power-trips >etc? Doing that still says female is inferior, male is superior, so lets >just get rid of all the inferior female bits, and become superiors too - >and hey presto - everybody is magically equal? > >Blaming biology also takes all responsibility off men to do any changing of >themselves, ie. male is normal, female is abnormal, and therefore only >females need to be "fixed" because men are already born perfect and dont >need any changes. > >As Greer also said ' No amount of EEO Legislation will allow me to feel >comfortable in my woman's body until men and women accept that my body is >human, and its the world that needs changing, not our bodies" This is all a reasonable argument, Julieanne, but it's directed at the wrong target (if you are still talking about ideas espoused by either Willis or me) I don't like sociobiology either, and I have never and would never go on about "biology equals destiny" except to ridicule the argument of anyone trying to push it - which is very few people these days. As I pointed out in an earlier post, "Even the Queen" explicitly does not say that turning off our periods made us equal to men. It is set up as an issue of women's control over our own bodies. It satirises an extreme form of ecofeminism, which also isn't seen too much anymore, in academic circles at least, that argues women's bodies should be subject to something called "nature". If that isn't biology equals destiny, I don't know what is. Kate. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:46:25 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ... having consumed an excellent breakfast of pancakes, maple syrup, a mango, orange juice, and coffee, on to the relevant bits. :-) [lots snipped again] Kate Orman: > >But that's completely irrelevant. The implication of Willis' story is > >that once we kill our periods, we get equality; *that's* what's been > >holding us back. Kate Dell: > I quote: "In the first fine flush of freedom after the Liberation, > I had entertained hoped that it would change everything - that it > would somehow do away with inequality...Of course it didn't. Men > still make more money..." Here I am hampered by the lack of a copy of the story, mine having been dispatched to the book exchange shortly after reading. :-) Could you quote the rest of that bit, and/or any bits where Willis outlines how women's Liberation has changed their lives? > I think we have to be careful not to confuse arguments between different > strands of feminism with feminist vs anti-feminist arguments. Both cyborg > and eco-feminists have interesting arguments. But whether you want to > control your own body or get decent social recognition for it, you are still > taking a feminist position. I don't think Willis is not arguing for any variety of feminism, but for Libertarianism. It's the clownish caricature feminist who blares on about "the male patriarchy"; the real villain is the Big Bad Government, which (for obscure reasons) doesn't want women to have the shunt. (I suppose you could call this Libertarian feminism; but I don't think Willis is arguing for cyborg vs eco. :-) Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:56:24 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kate Dall: > But why is the question of celebrating menstruation irrelevant? It > seems to be a major theme in your side of the argument. (the > eco-feminist loonies, that is) Actually, you're the one who keeps bringing it up. :-) I'm afraid you're confusing a side issue - society's general attitude to menstruation - with the actual issue I'm trying to discuss: the implied msg in "Even that Queen" that women's biology makes us naturally inferior. Whether or not periods are nice or nasty has nothing whatsoever to do with that. Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 22:22:16 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Star Trek uniforms In-Reply-To: <51.712832f.27b0bfba@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:47 PM 2/5/01 -0500, you wrote: >But at least it has changed a little in regards to movies. Take a look at >Woman of the Year with TRacey and Hepburn. She has to change, not him. >Hopefully, that would not happen if they did a remake. > But you are right about the difference between two medias. I would >hesitate to add Deep Space Nine, and even STar Trek (which some of my friends >mention, not you), for the simple reason that the women wear a one piece >uniform while the men wear what looks to be a far more comfortable two piece. > Nice to see another Farscape watcher on the list. >Chris Actually, the old women's uniforms (before they got all tight and sexy for Kira and Seven) were much more comfortable than the men's uniforms. I've heard the men complain about how itchy and hot the wool two piece uniforms were. But I did hear Gates McFadden and Marina Sirtis complain about the "bullet proof" bras they had to wear. And the Deep Space Nine uniforms were all the same for men and women for a few years and I've heard those were the most comfortable. Jennifer- yes, I admit I'm a Star Trek geek ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 22:42:37 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Men with boobs In-Reply-To: <004901c08ec8$1b791f60$f424fc3e@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Well, there was Ripley in the Alien movies- a role originally intended to BE male! Then there's Trinity in the Matrix and Leia and Amidala in the Star Wars movies as well- although the later too don't quite qualify as men with boobs, they can take care of themselves to some extent . I'm not saying they are the perfect examples of feminist characters or anything, but they sure beat Denise Richards in Starship Troopers! But most of the women in movies are just the side-kick, a love interest, plot fixers, etc. It's rare for an SFF movie to have decent characters period, never mind decent women. Jennifer At 04:24 PM 2/4/01 +0000, you wrote: >I'm obviously not watching the right movies. From what I can see the cinema >is still full of the old standards - woman as two-dimensional secondary >character - woman as game prize for the successful hero - woman as neurotic >mill-stone, and my own personal least favourite - woman as moronic quick-fix >plot saver. >To explain what I mean by the last standard female role I have a mental >vision that goes something like this... >================= >scene: scriptwriter's office for the next Hollywood SF blockbuster. >Scriptwriter A: OK. So the monster's outside the base. How does it get in >without raising the alarm? >Scriptwriter B (thinks a moment): One of the characters could open the door >for some fresh air, see the monster coming then run away and hide. >Scriptwriter A (shakes head): The audience won't buy it. With monsters >around the person would have to be totally stupid. Plus everyone in the base >is armed - any normal person would let off a few shots just out of reflex. >Just hiding would be pathetic. >Scriptwriter B: No problem, we can make the character a woman. >================= >This scenario is more common in the later stages of a film. In the earlier >parts the role of moronic quick-fix plot saver is often given to the 'weedy >guy', however this character type has a very limited life-expectancy and >rarely makes it to the second half of a film. >Jane ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 22:53:13 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Men with boobs In-Reply-To: <200102051102.GAA20274@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Well, I did mention books in my original post on this topic too, in fact, I was thinking mostly of books when I mentioned it. But I haven't read many books with female characters I'd consider basically men with boobs. Or is that something that mostly happens in books written by men. I'm thinking of Friday by Heinlein (and the show Dark Angel, which Cameron based on Friday). I must agree that the men with boobs concept is an improvement over most of the current trash out there- I'm not a big fan of mainstream movies. I prefer independent films lately over big budget Hollywood films. I too have noticed that TV is changing a lot quicker than movies. An interesting thing happens when TV shows go to the big screen: the women disappear! The Star Trek: TNG movies and The X-Files movies are prefect examples. When TNG was a TV show, they had 26 episode per season, so they had time to have women-centered shows about Troi and Crusher, but when they went to movies, they were basically cameos and the films focused on Picard and Data. And Scully always seemed to be able to take care of herself pretty well and even rescued Mulder as often as he rescued her on the TV show. But in the film, of course Mulder has to rescue Scully. Jennifer At 03:03 AM 2/5/01 -0800, you wrote: >Agreed, I'm also not terribly certain the "men with boobs" thing is >to much of a problem both because I haven't seen much of it, and >because it does seem *far* better than the current attitude in >almost all mainstream movies and many TV shows where women >are at best sidekicks and at worst toys or decorations. My least >favorite niche for female characters are in male buddy or rival >pictures, where the mandatory women there for the two men to lust >after to prove that they aren't gay and interested in each other. The >only virtue of such stereotypical shows and movies is that at least >they lend themselves easily to slash fiction. >I do find it interesting that TV is slowly getting better. I can think of >a number of recent shows with interesting, detailed female >characters (Buffy & Farscape now and to a lesser extent the prior >shows Deep Space 9 & Babylon 5). OTOH, Hollywood movies are >quite terrible wrt having strong or even non-trivial female characters. >I guess that the financial pressures involved in movies vs TV or the >relative structures of the two industries make movies far more >conservative than television. >-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 04:06:30 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Connie Willis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Kate Orman: >I'm afraid >you're confusing a side issue - society's general attitude to >menstruation - with the actual issue I'm trying to discuss: the >implied msg in "Even that Queen" that women's biology makes us >naturally inferior. Whether or not periods are nice or nasty has >nothing whatsoever to do with that. Sorry Kate, I've probably been confusing your argument with those of other people on the list who have been taking what appears to me to be your side. But as I've said before, I really don't see that "Even the Queen" implies that women's biology makes us naturally inferior at all. >Kate Orman: >> >But that's completely irrelevant. The implication of Willis' story is >> >that once we kill our periods, we get equality; *that's* what's been >> >holding us back. >Kate Dall: >>I quote: "In the first fine flush of freedom after the Liberation, >>I had entertained hoped that it would change everything - that it >>would somehow do away with inequality...Of course it didn't. Men >>still make more money..." >Here I am hampered by the lack of a copy of the story, mine having >been dispatched to the book exchange shortly after reading. :-) It's in the collection _Uncharted Territory_, currently being sold for 3.95 or three for ten dollars all over Sydney. Just in case you're interested. >Could you quote the rest of that bit, and/or any bits where Willis >outlines how women's Liberation has changed their lives? Sure. <> <<'If Perdita wants to have her period, I say let her. Women functioned perfectly well without shunts for thousands of years.' Mother brought her fist down on the table. 'Women also functioned perfectly well with concubinage, cholera, and corsets,' she said, emphasizing each word with her fist. 'But that is no reason to take them on voluntarily, and I have no intention of allowing Perdita - >> <> Back to Kate O: >I don't think Willis is not arguing for any variety of feminism, but for >Libertarianism. It's the clownish caricature feminist who blares on >about "the male patriarchy"; the real villain is the Big Bad >Government, which (for obscure reasons) doesn't want women to >have the shunt. (I suppose you could call this Libertarian feminism; >but I don't think Willis is arguing for cyborg vs eco. :-) I can't agree with this, and I hope the above quotes show why. Yes, Willis is caricaturing a certain version of feminism, but from a position I see as fully within feminism. I don't think there is a villain in the story at all. The Big Bad Government is never mentioned, except for the one in power at the time of the Liberation, and it seemed to be affected successfully by political action on the part of women. The particular interest groups which lobbied against the Liberation have pretty obvious reasons for doing so. My main reason for seeing the story as part of an argument between different kinds of feminism is that these are the only voices which crop up in the story. There is only one male character, who is basically a lackey, and expresses no point of view of his own. All the female characters are strong, self-determining, and opinionated. It seems to me to be both a critique of radical ecofeminist views and a satirical look at matriarchal power relations within a family. I didn't see anything that implied that women had become equal with men after they got their periods turned off. In fact, it seemed the other way round - that being able to turn your periods off was a _consequence_ of women gaining greater power within the culture. Kate. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:25:40 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT [lots snipped once again] Kate Dell (many thanks!) provides the following quotes from "Even the Queen": > < hopes that it would change everything - that it would somehow do away with > inequality and matriarchal dominance and those humorless women determined to > eliminate the word "manhole" and third-person singular pronouns from the > language. > Of course it didn't. Men still make more money, 'herstory' is still a blight > on the semantic landscape, and my mother can still say, 'Oh, Traci!' in a > tone that reduces me to preadolescence.>> > > <<'If Perdita wants to have her period, I say let her. Women functioned > perfectly well without shunts for thousands of years.' > Mother brought her fist down on the table. 'Women also functioned > perfectly well with concubinage, cholera, and corsets,' she said, > emphasizing each word with her fist. 'But that is no reason to take them on > voluntarily, and I have no intention of allowing Perdita - >> > > < began long before the so-called "Liberation", with government regulation of > abortion and fetal rights, scientific control of fertility, and finally the > development of ammenerol, which eliminated the reproductive cycle > altogether. This was all part of a carefully planned takeover of women's > bodies, and by extension, their identities, by the male patriarchal regime.' > 'What an interesting point of view!' Karen said enthusiastically. > It certainly was. In point of fact, ammenerol hadn't been invented to > eliminate menstruation at all. It had been developed for shrinking malignant > tumors, and its uterine lining-absorbing properties had only been discovered > by accident. > 'Are you trying to tell us,' Mother said, 'that men _forced_ shunts on > women? We had to _fight_ everyone to get ammenerol approved by the FDA!' > It was true. What surrogate mothers and antiabortionists and the > fetal-rights issue had failed to do in uniting women, the prospect of not > having to menstruate did. Women had organised rallies, petitioned, elected > senators, passed amendments, been excommunicated, and gone to jail, all in > the name of Liberation. > 'Men were _against_ it,' Mother said, getting rather red in the face. 'And > the religious right, and the maxipad manufacturers, and the Catholic > Church-'>> Alas, I'm afraid these quotes only recall why I felt the story was so anti-feminist in the first place! Menstruation in the same category with "concubinage, cholera, and corsets"? Getting rid of it will get rid of those tedious Eeyore Amazons and their non-sexist language - as well as that minor inconvenience of inequality? And why *were* men against it - if not to help Willis make fun of her goofy feminist target? Men didn't oppose the Pill (or more recently the implant), which they know would increase their sexual freedom. (The drug's origins as an anti-cancer drug seems like a similar dodge to help Willis make her point.) > It seems to me to be both a critique of radical ecofeminist views > and a satirical look at matriarchal power relations within a > family. I didn't see anything that implied that women had become > equal with men after they got their periods turned off. In fact, > it seemed the other way round - that being able to turn your > periods off was a _consequence_ of women gaining greater power > within the culture. Reviewing the quotes, I can see where you're coming from. I know the author is dead, but it would be interesting to get Willis' own take on her story. Cheers, Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 04:39:22 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Connie Willis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Kate, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I still can't see anything within the story that suggests equality for women was a consequence of turning off the menstrual cycle (or even exists in the society it describes), but clearly you do. Good old reader response theory in action again. I didn't know Willis was dead though. Are you sure? Didn't someone on the list say a few days ago that she was going to be guest of honour at some upcoming event in America? I'm very sorry to hear it if it's true: she's one of my favourite authors (hence the impassioned defence). peace, Kate D. >From: Kate Orman >Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Connie Willis >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:25:40 +1100 > >[lots snipped once again] > >Kate Dell (many thanks!) provides the following quotes from "Even >the Queen": > > > <entertained > > hopes that it would change everything - that it would somehow do away >with > > inequality and matriarchal dominance and those humorless women >determined to > > eliminate the word "manhole" and third-person singular pronouns from the > > language. > > Of course it didn't. Men still make more money, 'herstory' is still a >blight > > on the semantic landscape, and my mother can still say, 'Oh, Traci!' in >a > > tone that reduces me to preadolescence.>> > > > > <<'If Perdita wants to have her period, I say let her. Women functioned > > perfectly well without shunts for thousands of years.' > > Mother brought her fist down on the table. 'Women also functioned > > perfectly well with concubinage, cholera, and corsets,' she said, > > emphasizing each word with her fist. 'But that is no reason to take them >on > > voluntarily, and I have no intention of allowing Perdita - >> > > > > < > began long before the so-called "Liberation", with government regulation >of > > abortion and fetal rights, scientific control of fertility, and finally >the > > development of ammenerol, which eliminated the reproductive cycle > > altogether. This was all part of a carefully planned takeover of women's > > bodies, and by extension, their identities, by the male patriarchal >regime.' > > 'What an interesting point of view!' Karen said enthusiastically. > > It certainly was. In point of fact, ammenerol hadn't been invented to > > eliminate menstruation at all. It had been developed for shrinking >malignant > > tumors, and its uterine lining-absorbing properties had only been >discovered > > by accident. > > 'Are you trying to tell us,' Mother said, 'that men _forced_ shunts on > > women? We had to _fight_ everyone to get ammenerol approved by the FDA!' > > It was true. What surrogate mothers and antiabortionists and the > > fetal-rights issue had failed to do in uniting women, the prospect of >not > > having to menstruate did. Women had organised rallies, petitioned, >elected > > senators, passed amendments, been excommunicated, and gone to jail, all >in > > the name of Liberation. > > 'Men were _against_ it,' Mother said, getting rather red in the face. >'And > > the religious right, and the maxipad manufacturers, and the Catholic > > Church-'>> > >Alas, I'm afraid these quotes only recall why I felt the story was so >anti-feminist in the first place! Menstruation in the same category >with "concubinage, cholera, and corsets"? Getting rid of it will get >rid of those tedious Eeyore Amazons and their non-sexist language >- as well as that minor inconvenience of inequality? > >And why *were* men against it - if not to help Willis make fun of >her goofy feminist target? Men didn't oppose the Pill (or more >recently the implant), which they know would increase their sexual >freedom. (The drug's origins as an anti-cancer drug seems like a >similar dodge to help Willis make her point.) > > > It seems to me to be both a critique of radical ecofeminist views > > and a satirical look at matriarchal power relations within a > > family. I didn't see anything that implied that women had become > > equal with men after they got their periods turned off. In fact, > > it seemed the other way round - that being able to turn your > > periods off was a _consequence_ of women gaining greater power > > within the culture. > >Reviewing the quotes, I can see where you're coming from. I know >the author is dead, but it would be interesting to get Willis' own >take on her story. > >Cheers, > > >Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ >"I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 00:41:15 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: Connie Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just read this story also. I think it was written to keep you guessing, and shock. I find any suggestion that equality for women can be gained by getting rid of our reproductive characteristic pretty insulting to women. Ie the discussion about 'replicates or whatever they were called in Bujod's books. I can't help feeling that if we had a society in which every member had the capacity for childbirth (whether this was composed entirely of women, or women and men able o give birth) that the ability to create another life would be held in entirely higher regard. Because it is a characteristic of women, as with anything else associated with women, it held in lower regard. For example, any profession dominated by women is automatically low-paid and low status. Of course, I haven't menstruated in over 2 years as I am still breastfeeding, so maybe I shouldn't comment Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:53:29 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kate Dell: > I didn't know Willis was dead though. I'm sorry to have confused you here. Willis is very much alive. But The Author is dead, as my readers like to remind me when their interpretations of my work differs from mine. :-) Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:56:59 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <3b.101a8b73.27b239fb@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maire: > I just read this story also. I think it was written to keep you guessing, and > shock. Which reminds me - I actually listened to the story on tape, and misheard "shunt" nearly every time. A deliberately naughty pun, or just my dirty mind at work? :-) Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 06:04:20 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Connie Willis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Oh. Duh. OK. Well, even though the Author can't fix the meaning of the text, you're still allowed to listen to her opinion, you know. Providing she is, in fact, alive, that is :) Maybe someone attending the function in question could ask her what she intended her target to be? Kate D >From: Kate Orman >Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Connie Willis >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:53:29 +1100 > >Kate Dell: > > > I didn't know Willis was dead though. > >I'm sorry to have confused you here. Willis is very much alive. But >The Author is dead, as my readers like to remind me when their >interpretations of my work differs from mine. :-) > > >Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ >"I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:30:28 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kate Orman: > > I'm sorry to have confused you here. Willis is very much alive. > > But The Author is dead, as my readers like to remind me when > > their interpretations of my work differs from mine. :-) Kate Dell: > Oh. Duh. OK. Well, even though the Author can't fix the meaning of > the text, you're still allowed to listen to her opinion, you know. Yes, that's what I generally tell them! And it's why I'd like to know Willis'. Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 01:07:27 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: Men with boobs In-Reply-To: <200102070605.AAA70892@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT "Jennifer R. J." wrote: > Well, there was Ripley in the Alien movies- a role originally intended > to BE male! Didn't know that, but it makes sense. Still with Sigourney Weaver playing that part, Ripley came across as fairly believable, and very much not a man with boobs in the 2nd movie (I avoid both of the later films). > Then there's Trinity in the Matrix To me, Trinity seemed clearly there to be Neo's Anima (and secondarily his love interest). The fact that she and Neo both look and dress *very* much alike clued me in there. Having a female character be a male character's anima is notably more interesting than having her merely be a sidekick or girlfriend, but I'd still be *far* happier if there were occasional male characters who were there to be the female lead's animus. and Leia and Amidala > in the Star Wars movies as well- although the later too don't quite > qualify as men with boobs, they can take care of themselves to some > extent . Leia was far to helpless/useless for my tastes, but that was the late 70s for you. Amidala was OK, far from feminist, but at least not deeply offensive (unlike that film's glaring racial stereotypes). > I'm not saying they are the perfect examples of feminist > characters or anything, but they sure beat Denise Richards in Starship > Troopers! Very much agreed, although I still really enjoyed the film since it was such a wonderfully satirical send up of a book I found deeply offensive. It wasn't a good movie by any stretch of the imagination (Paul Verhoven is a B movie genius, not a maker of good films). > But most of the women in movies are just the side-kick, a > love interest, plot fixers, etc. It's rare for an SFF movie to have > decent characters period, never mind decent women. True, these days, TV is doing far better. It never ceases to amaze me that Farscape is an SF show with cast that is predominantly female (I basically count Pilot as neuter). -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 01:16:21 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <200102070605.AAA70892@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kate Dall > Back to Kate O: > >I don't think Willis is not arguing for any variety of feminism, but > >for Libertarianism. It's the clownish caricature feminist who blares > >on about "the male patriarchy"; the real villain is the Big Bad > >Government, which (for obscure reasons) doesn't want women to have > >the shunt. (I suppose you could call this Libertarian feminism; but I > >don't think Willis is arguing for cyborg vs eco. :-) > > I can't agree with this, and I hope the above quotes show why. Yes, > Willis is caricaturing a certain version of feminism, but from a > position I see as fully within feminism. I don't think there is a > villain in the story at all. The Big Bad Government is never > mentioned, except for the one in power at the time of the Liberation, > and it seemed to be affected successfully by political action on the > part of women. The particular interest groups which lobbied against > the Liberation have pretty obvious reasons for doing so. > > My main reason for seeing the story as part of an argument between > different kinds of feminism is that these are the only voices which > crop up in the story. There is only one male character, who is > basically a lackey, and expresses no point of view of his own. All the > female characters are strong, self-determining, and opinionated. It > seems to me to be both a critique of radical ecofeminist views and a > satirical look at matriarchal power relations within a family. I > didn't see anything that implied that women had become equal with men > after they got their periods turned off. In fact, it seemed the other > way round - that being able to turn your periods off was a > _consequence_ of women gaining greater power within the culture. I agree with you both wrt the general and the specific arguments. One of the more serious problems I've seen in feminism is that various feminists are far too willing to claim that other people who subscribe to different versions of feminism aren't feminists. This is particularly true wrt the radical/liberal feminist division (which sadly can easily become as heated as any argument between any sort of feminist and a fundy bigot), but also clearly comes up in the eco/cyber-feminist divide. Speaking of which, I heard of eco-feminism (and personally don't think much of it), but the term cyber-feminism is new to me. Are there any good books you'd recommend on it. From your description it sounds very much like my sort of thing. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:25:27 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Men with boobs In-Reply-To: <200102070906.EAA23227@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:07 AM 7/02/01 -0800, you wrote: > >> Then there's Trinity in the Matrix >To me, Trinity seemed clearly there to be Neo's Anima (and >secondarily his love interest). The fact that she and Neo both look >and dress *very* much alike clued me in there. Having a female >character be a male character's anima is notably more interesting >than having her merely be a sidekick or girlfriend, but I'd still be >*far* happier if there were occasional male characters who were >there to be the female lead's animus. Thats interesting - tho' I saw the Matrix as just an updated version of the aeons-old 'Young Male Hero/Saviour' story or the classic 'heroic saga', like Hercules, Beouwulf, or the story of Jesus - being 'the One', was 'not of woman born', had to undergo trials, or descend into hell, or fight mythical monsters etc - in order to overcome the Evil Other, sometimes presented as a Father or Brother figure - I saw all the other characters in the Matrix as like the Apostles, he was even betrayed from within by a 'Judas' - and there was even a symbolic baptism near the beginning by the 2-ic character - he reminded me of John the Baptist, taking a paternal role..and Trinity as the Holy Spirit, or the female Apostles bathing his feet or massaging an ego or two etc - although I kept waiting for her to break into song, like in Jesus Christ Superstar...." I don't how to love him..." Modern sci-fi cinema of the popular blockbuster moralistic type - is just Myth, just because we watch such stories on hi-tech cinema screens with surround-sound now, doesn't mean the stories or the characters in them, have changed all that much since our ancestors listened to wandering orating bards & minstrels beside their smelly hearth-fires I guess:) Must be *something* in them - they've been enormously popular since time began! Julieanne:) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:26:56 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rebecca Tolley-Stokes Organization: ETSU Libraries Subject: Re: please share cyberfeminism resources............was Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <200102070915.EAA05776@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7 Feb 2001, at 1:16, John Snead wrote: > > Speaking of which, I heard of eco-feminism (and personally don't > think much of it), but the term cyber-feminism is new to me. Are > there any good books you'd recommend on it. I'm also interested in learning more about cyberfeminism, please post responses to the list. Thanks, Rebecca ¤º°`°º¤o,,,,o¤º°`°º¤o,,,,o¤º°`°º¤o,,,,o¤º°`°º¤o,,,,o¤º°`°º¤ Rebecca Tolley-Stokes Non-print media cataloger Sherrod Library East Tennessee State University Johnson City, TN 423.439.4365 fax)423.439.4410 tolleyst@etsu.edu ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:11:17 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Conquerer's Child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The BDG book for February is _The Conquerer's Child_ (CC) by Suzy McKee Charnas. It was awarded the 1999 Tiptree. The judges praised that it "questions with acute vision human relationships in the context of gender, power, and history" [Bill Clemente], Diane Martin even said "Far and away the best gender- bending novel I've read this past year -- maybe in the past 20 or 30 years. Strong, thoughtful, relevant, and beautifully written." I wouldn't perhaps go so far but IMO CC is a worthy conclusion of the Holdfast series and provides lots of issues to discuss. What surprised me the most when I startet reading this book were Sorrel's mixed feelings towards her birthmother. Somehow I've taken the impression from _Motherlines_ that the birthmother is by herself not so important for a riding woman. The relationships between mothers (and fathers!) and daughters are much more traditionally presented in this book than in the first 2 Holdfast books. Even Eyker tries to influence Servan in the end by telling him that Sorrel is his daughter! But back to Sorrel. I think the shift to her perspective in this last book is important. She's the daughter of a "great women" who has somehow to live up (at least in her own head) to what her mother did. Put like this I notice that I cannot think off-hand of any other real-life or fictional story with that mother-daughter constellation. Father-son or father-daughter couples yes, but mother-daughter? It is easy to understand that Sorrel is troubled. All the plans for Sorrel to start a new motherline fail ( I will never read _Motherlines_ in the same way again) which makes her an outsider in the riding women's camp. And, of course, she identifies with the boy Veree. Another surprise was for me how the riding women were idealized and glorified in this book. I've read _Amazon Story Bones_ (AZB) by Ellen Frye last year and this reminded me a lot of it, especially when in the end the camps disappear (in most of AZB the women search for the Amazons, they are the ideal beyond the horizon). For me it was strange to read this idealized perspective after the society was described in _Motherlines_ with all its strenghts and faults. It is easy to see how they become the (impractical) ideal for former slaves but I noticed that I became impatient with these people. I admire Charnas because she has such an unflinching look on people, she does not romanticize her characters. Tamara Hladik wrote about the characterization in CC (review in Science Fiction Weekly #111, see http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue111/books.html#cc): "There is irony in Charnas' artistry, though. For all the skill in conveying the rococo permutations of violence, its effects and surprising pathologies, the characters as a whole could be crafted more vividly. Some of the lesser characters suffer greatly and seem almost interchangeable. If individuals could only be as rich as the epic, this would be a more satisfying read." Other issues: There are two other societies presented in this book: the Bayo-born and the Pool towns. What do you think of them? I've read the 3 first Holdfast books before. And I think CC is by itself an interesting book. But, of course, my view is coloured by the first 3. Has anybody read only CC and what do you think? The book fleshes out the relationship between Eyker and Servan after Alldera left Holdfast. What did you think of it? And of Servan? And of that Eyker is still under Servan's spell? I hope for a fruitful discussion. Petra Online ressources: 1999 Tiptree Award Judge's comments at http://www.tiptree.org/1999/winner.html#1999W01 "While concluding on a hopeful note, the narrative refuses to sidestep the minefield of conflict women and especially men (who must work to overcome the consequences of what centuries of artificial gender differences have inculcated in society, resulting in unnatural distinctions that uphold male domination) must negotiate to understand and confront gender-based inequalities that inform society." [Bill Clemente] "In Charnas's post-liberation Holdfast, we see that for society to become politically inclusive, not only do men have to cease to be masters, but also their conception of what a socially normative man is must change." [L. Timmel Duchamp] Emerald City Review (Besprechung der ganzen Holdfast-Serie durch Cheryl Morgan) http://www.emcit.com/emcit047.shtml#Herstory "Given what they [the men] have done in the past, how could they [the women] dare let men be free? The answer is that before they can be free, a dream must die. That dream is the macho ideal of conquest and mastery. It is exemplified by the Bear Cult, an underground movement amongst the slave men which preaches that the mythical Sunbear will come and save them. Little do they know that the Sunbear is real. After many years travelling the wilderness with a band of brigands, Servan d Layo is about to return to Holdfast. He has women, he has strange and highly edible animals called goats, and best of all he has a gun. Servan's dream is of conquest. We are in allegory land here. Not only does Servan have to die, he has to do so in a way that redeems his fellow men. The key to this redemption must, of course, be Daya. [...] The Sunbear, and the dream he represents, is dead, killed not by a Fem, nor by one of the alien Women, but by a man protecting the woman he loves." Polly Shulman (2000) Matriarchy blues. Salon Books 21.4.2000 http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2000/04/21/sf/index.html Potlatch 9 Program Notes on panel (?) "Holdfast: Chronicles of Our Future, Chronicles of Our Past" http://www.potlatch-sf.org/pot9pro.htm#hold "JEANNE In _The Furies_ we revisit the Holdfast; it's a book about violent confrontation. _Child_ is about an attempt to create a just society. Easier in some ways than in our own world. SUZY I was trying to avoid the violence. Roughly, was trying to write _Child_ without having written _Furies_." "IAN The Riding Women seemed fictional to me, within the context of the story. The conflict in the story seemed to be more about race than sex: intractible problems, two societies that never meet. The accommodations in _Furies_ and _Child_ look like what happened in Rhodesia, Israel/Palestine. SUZY Yes, it's very much like race and colonialism. How is it possible to work this out so someone isn't colonizing someone else? JEANNE Rereading all of the books, Grace O'Mally, in _Motherlines_, one of the crazy people, said she felt unreal, like someone walking through fems' dreams. TIMMI The Riding Women all vanish at the end of _Child_, when they're no longer needed. DEBBIE They're the elves!" "JEANNE Problem in _Child_: do we hand down anger to children and hope they carry on, or tell them nothing, or accept that they've learned something new? Sorel is angry: never experienced Holdfast, doesn't accept that the only choices are to be a master or a slave. Central dilemma: what to do about the boys? TIMMI What are the alternatives for Veree: killed, enslaved, or castrated? Sorel considers taking him away and raising him herself. Eykar makes her realize it's a broader social issue. Understanding of gender: Aldera told Sorel not to feel bad about failing to kill Servan, it was Eykar's job, not women's job. Men have to createnormative standards for being male. SUZY Question for our world: how should men change as part of the new world? Men can't just stay the same and expect women to do all the work of changing. By and large, the contemporary men's movement is about resisting change. It's men's job to make men into human beings." "TIMMI The cairn/horse in _Child_ is an important symbol. Sorel builds it to express her feelings; it's not like the memorial cairns. It's a creative act. Nobody else knows how to interpret it because it doesn't fit into any of the preexisting political categories. " Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:43:31 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Ecofeminism vs. cyberfeminism: Snead MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Defining terms always helps, too: Janet Biehl's ecofeminism isn't the same as Mary Daly's, which in turn isn't Starhawk's. -----Original Message----- From: John Snead [mailto:sneadj@MINDSPRING.COM] Speaking of which, I heard of eco-feminism (and personally don't think much of it), but the term cyber-feminism is new to me. Are there any good books you'd recommend on it. From your description it sounds very much like my sort of thing. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:47:43 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: Connie Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kate Orman wrote: > Reviewing the quotes, I can see where you're coming from. I > know > the author is dead, but it would be interesting to get Willis' own > take on her story. > > Cheers, > > > Kate Orman > Um, Kate, Willis is not dead. Either that, or I'm going to have a Very Interesting event with her when she visits Mysterious Galaxy in May to sign and discuss PASSAGE! Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:52:05 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: menstruation Maire Shanahan wrote: "I find any suggestion that equality for women can be gained by getting rid of our reproductive characteristic pretty insulting to women." I didn't realize I was an eco-feminist loony for thinking the same way. The idea that humans can be made good or effective or worthwhile or happy only by rising above nature and becoming less than human is not an argument that holds any appeal to me. That men are more worthwhile if they are intelligent and supportive rather than violent (the concept in Tepper's Gate To Women's Country) is neither sexist nor inhumane. These are characteristics that are valued in either sex. To say men can be worthwhile only if they're castrated is sexist, is inhumane and is insulting. I can see that some science fiction (and religious) authors believe that people cannot achieve grace, true happiness, or utopia if they continue to honor their human characteristics. Is it the definition of an eco feminist loony (or a pagan) to think that the only way to achieve a fully rewarding life is to respect our bodies and glory in their abilities? If so, sign me up. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:01:24 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Pamela Bedore Subject: New Reproductive Technologies in SF In-Reply-To: <3A817E5B.3187.173700D@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hey Folks, I'm teaching a writing course whose topic is New Reproductive Technologies. I'm using *Not of Woman Born*, ed. Constance Ash, as the main textbook. Thanks to this list for bringing that book to my attention! I'm thinking about compiling a list of novels or novellas which deal with NRTs, for my students. I'd be interested in titles, and in knowing if you've ever taught these books, and, if so, how they worked. Cheers, pamela bedore department of english university of rochester ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:51:29 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: menstruation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Green pawpaw: the BIG problem with herbal/plant remedies is that although they may be shown, under modern laboratory investigation, to contain usefully active compounds, the evidence that they were used in such a way that the chemicals involved would have had a maximum chance of working is slight and often contradictory. Even if one culture at one time was using (say) a spermicidal substance in local applied pessaries (fairly efficacious) in another culture or the same one at a different period it might well have been recommended for wear round the neck in an amulet. Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:40:46 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: New Reproductive Technologies in SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:01 PM 02/07/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Hey Folks, > >I'm teaching a writing course whose topic is New Reproductive >Technologies. I'm using *Not of Woman Born*, ed. Constance Ash, as the >main textbook. Thanks to this list for bringing that book to my >attention! > >I'm thinking about compiling a list of novels or novellas which deal with >NRTs, for my students. I'd be interested in titles, and in knowing if >you've ever taught these books, and, if so, how they worked. Gotta check out uterine replicators in Lois McMaster Bujold's works (play a major part in several, but the best one to look at is ETHAN OF ATHOS in which an all-male society reproduces by means of harvesting eggs from ovarian tissue (maintained in hospital labs), fertilizing eggs with their own sperm but "washing out" the chromosomes (?? I may not be accurate here, am a poet not a doctor, Jim) leading to female fetuses, then implanting in a uterine replicator which performs all the functions of a female. This society is not the dominant one in the novel, and during the course of the novel, one of their doctors has to leave Athos to brave the galaxy at large (and eek women) to replace ovarian tissue (which is dying out). I've taught -- very readable and accessible but plays with some nifty ideas. Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:11:27 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: "Death of the Author" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed BY wild coincidence, one of my students in my English 300 class will be presenting on deconstructionist criticism today, with example from Roland Barthes "The Death of the Author." As someone has already implied, that phrase means basically that the person (the writer) who is the "Author" (a socially created position, requiring a print literate society, copyright issues, etc.) is not able to control the meaning of the text. In relation to a recent discussion, anyone who belives that authors can or must control that meaning would have to accept David Brin's assertion that GLORY SEASON is a feminist text. As our discussion proved, however, most people on this list do NOT seem to accept that stance so, practically speaking, for this list, "The Authors are dead," in the deconstructionist (i.e. NOT literal ) meaning of the phrase! Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:27:16 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: "Death of the Author" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for those who clarified, although I still think an event with a deceased author would be kinda kewl. Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:37:10 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: "Death of the Author" In-Reply-To: <3A81A194.E6F7CD29@mystgalaxy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:27 AM 02/07/2001 -0800, you wrote: >Thanks for those who clarified, although I still think an event with a >deceased author would be kinda kewl. > >Maryelizabeth Well it would certainly be in the realm of sf/fantasy/horror: I can see it now! An SF convention where all sorts of writers do come back! MIght be pretty fun for a fanfic sort of idea.... R >-- >******************************************************************* >Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 >7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 >San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 >http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: >mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com > >******************************************************************* > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:46:52 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: menstruation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Joyce Jones: >Maire Shanahan wrote: > >"I find any suggestion that equality for women can be gained by getting > >rid of our reproductive characteristic pretty insulting to women." > >I didn't realize I was an eco-feminist loony for thinking the same way. Since I make the eco-feminist loony remark (while discussing a character who is an obvious caricature of someone espousing the position btw), I assume this remark is aimed at me. I never made any suggestion that equality for women can be gained by getting rid of menstruation, and I have been attempting to point out that the Willis story doesn't make any such suggestion either. I find deliberate misstatement of my position pretty insulting too. >The idea that humans can be made good or effective or worthwhile or >happy >only by rising above nature and becoming less than human is not >an >argument that holds any appeal to me. Are you seriously suggesting that if I choose not to have my period I become less than human? >To say men can be worthwhile only if they're castrated is sexist, is > >inhumane and is insulting. Or equating turning off one's period with castration (for any gender)? Kate. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:02:08 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Connie Willis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed John Snead wrote: >Speaking of which, I heard of eco-feminism (and personally don't >think much of it), but the term cyber-feminism is new to me. Are >there any good books you'd recommend on it. From your >description it sounds very much like my sort of thing. The brand I subscribe to is actually more commonly known as "cyborg feminism" and comes from Donna Haraway's "A Manifesto for Cyborgs", written in the mid-eighties. Probably the best place to find the article is in her book _Simians, Cyborgs and Women_. It's heavy going, but well worth it. There has been a lot of stuff written since which takes Haraway's cyborg as a starting point, but I can't think offhand of anything else I'd recommend as a good introduction. Kate _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:08:22 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: MATRIX with boobs: Julianne MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, at least she was allowed to awaken her Sleeping Beauty. For she loved him, doncha know, though why was not clear. A very disappointing film, however flashy. -----Original Message----- From: Julieanne [mailto:jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU] Thats interesting - tho' I saw the Matrix as just an updated version of the aeons-old 'Young Male Hero/Saviour' story or the classic 'heroic saga', like Hercules, Beouwulf, or the story of Jesus - being 'the One', was 'not of woman born', had to undergo trials, or descend into hell, or fight mythical monsters etc - in order to overcome the Evil Other, sometimes presented as a Father or Brother figure - I saw all the other characters in the Matrix as like the Apostles, he was even betrayed from within by a 'Judas' - and there was even a symbolic baptism near the beginning by the 2-ic character - he reminded me of John the Baptist, taking a paternal role..and Trinity as the Holy Spirit, or the female Apostles bathing his feet or massaging an ego or two etc - although I kept waiting for her to break into song, like in Jesus Christ Superstar...." I don't how to love him..." ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:28:05 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Margaret McBride Subject: menstruation stories MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Going back to the original question about fiction dealing with menstruation, doesn't Judy Grahn's Mundane's World have a coming-of-age ritual for the girls? I remember liking the book but read it quite a while back. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:38:43 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: menstruation stories: Correction to earlier post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In citing the WIMMEN'S COMIX story "Claire de Lune," I think I may've written something other than Barb Rausch's name as that of artist/author. And now I wonder if it's hers...though I think it is. Worth digging up, particularly in this context. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:58:24 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: menstruation In-Reply-To: <002401c0911d$eca21c20$2aaaea18@lvcm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Joyce: > I didn't realize I was an eco-feminist loony for thinking the same way. To be fair to Kate D, she wasn't calling anyone a "loony" - she was jokingly quoting my description of the Cyclist in "Even the Queen", and even called herself another "loony" to make the joke clear. (Although I was surprised to discover that I was an ecofeminist - I had no idea. :-) Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:15:13 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: sort of, maybe, menstruation stories In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010207152805.007c6b30@oregon.uoregon.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII And E. M. Broner's book, A WEAVE OF WOMEN -- these women created new rituals & rites for women, and it *seems* like there might have been something about menstruation. The rite I particularly remember was a ritual de-hymenization (not a word, I know) of an infant female. The idea was sort of like a political/feminist circumcision ritual in its effect. Without lasting physical effects / harm that come with female "circumcision" (aka genital mutilation), or that may come with male circumcision. The female hymen, as a physical manifestation & symbol of women's oppression, is done away with. I'd like to read it again. laura quilter On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Margaret McBride wrote: > Going back to the original question about fiction dealing with menstruation, > doesn't Judy Grahn's Mundane's World have a coming-of-age ritual for the > girls? > I remember liking the book but read it quite a while back. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:46:32 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: MATRIX with boobs: Julianne In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Todd Mason wrote: > A very disappointing film, however flashy. After seeing it, I could not BELIEVE the hype and all the "deep meaning" I had heard people were finding in it. "disappointing" is not a strong enough word. As you said, it's flashy; some of the special effects were pretty cool, but that's about all the movie had going for it, IMHO. My fiance got more out of it than I did, I think, though he was groaning just as loud as I was when the whole "humans as batteries" thing was explained. Hello? Conservation of energy, anyone? *sigh*. -Sandy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:32:45 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kate Dall: > Kate, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I still > can't see anything within the story that suggests equality for > women was a consequence of turning off the menstrual cycle (or even > exists in the society it describes), but clearly you do. Good old > reader response theory in action again. When I get the opportunity, I'll certainly re-read the story with your comments in mind. I must mention, though, another aspect of the story which disturbs me. Women's *real* Liberation, the issue that brings *all* women (except perhaps Catholic women? It's unclear) together to defeat it, more important than all feminist concerns put together, is - getting rid of our periods? :-) On the whole, I suspect Willis would be surprised to discover that she was not only a feminist, but a cyber-feminist to boot. :-) Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:51:13 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: New Reproductive Technologies in SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:01 PM 2/7/01 -0500, Pamela Bedore wrote: > >I'm teaching a writing course whose topic is New Reproductive >Technologies. I'm using *Not of Woman Born*, ed. Constance Ash, as the >main textbook. Thanks to this list for bringing that book to my >attention! > >I'm thinking about compiling a list of novels or novellas which deal with >NRTs, for my students. I'd be interested in titles, and in knowing if >you've ever taught these books, and, if so, how they worked. > I'm not sure _Frankenstein_ counts, but _Brave New World_ has to be on the list! Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:52:42 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: New Reproductive Technologies in SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Oh! And "Houston, Houston, Do You Read?" Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:25:02 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Men with boobs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/7/2001 4:07:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, sneadj@MINDSPRING.COM writes: << and Leia and Amidala > in the Star Wars movies as well- although the later too don't quite > qualify as men with boobs, they can take care of themselves to some > extent . Leia was far to helpless/useless for my tastes, but that was the late 70s for you. >> I don't know if I would go that far. But one thing I did nothing as I got older about the first three Star Wars movies was the fact that Leia seemed to be the only female of any power in the series. With expection of Mon Motha (the planner in Jedi) all the other women are seen in the background, if seen at all. AT least in Phantom it was better. Not only were there women on the Jedi Council, but at least one Naboo fighter pilot was female, and the Handmaidens fought. Chris ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:49:47 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: MATRIX with boobs: Julianne In-Reply-To: <20010208004632.28814.qmail@web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:46 PM 2/7/01 -0800, Sandy Candioglos wrote: >--- Todd Mason wrote: > > > A very disappointing film, however flashy. > >After seeing it, I could not BELIEVE the hype and all >the "deep meaning" I had heard people were finding in >it. "disappointing" is not a strong enough word. As >you said, it's flashy; some of the special effects >were pretty cool, but that's about all the movie had >going for it, IMHO. My fiance got more out of it than >I did, I think, though he was groaning just as loud as >I was when the whole "humans as batteries" thing was >explained. Hello? Conservation of energy, anyone? Well, I have to stick up for *The Matrix*. I can't defend silly plot elements like the artificial intelligences, who use "a form of fusion", also relying on the body heat of humans for their electricity. That is ridiculous, no two ways about it. But I could overlook one or two lame premises in light of the movie's strengths: a brilliant visual style, a higher than average level of plot coherence, and good performances. It is not, as so many blockbusters are, just a series of action scenes interspersed with rank sentiment (i.e. *Independence Day* or *Jurassic Park*). To call it "flashy" damns with faint praise; every frame of the movie is composed in an interesting way, and the use of color is brilliant. And I found that its use of virtual reality very cogently outlined Buddhist concepts of enlightenment. Neo's ability to manipulate the Matrix is limited only by his inability to transcend his habits of thought. And habits of thought can be very difficult to shed. From a feminist standpoint... I did find the idea of a white, male savior to be a bit old hat (an understatement, there). But, strange to say, I think Keanu Reeves was an asset. His very *lack* of presence took some of the stuffing out of the standard movie hero role and allowed the other characters to shine. I *loved* Trinity. She was a no nonsense, competent fighter, efficient and controlled throughout the movie, even when her love for Neo came into the open. She didn't make any silly mistakes, and she didn't need to be rescued. Man with boobs? I don't know. How does one differentiate between a "man with boobs" and a physically confident, self-sufficient woman? In any case, I'm pretty sure that the Oracle, one of the coolest characters in the movie, is immune to any such charge. I'm hoping to see a lot more of her in the upcoming sequels. :-) And I'm disappointed that Michelle Yeoh decided not to join the cast. :-( p.s. to Christine Ethier and John Snead -- I'm a *Farscape* fan too. Aeryn Sun -- man with boobs? ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Gomez -- Liquid Skin "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:02:44 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Farscape with boobs\Alien rumor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/7/2001 10:54:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, jdawley@IMPOP.BELLATLANTIC.NET writes: << p.s. to Christine Ethier and John Snead -- I'm a *Farscape* fan too. Aeryn Sun -- man with boobs? >> I don't see her as one, unless, possibly in the very early episdoes. The female crew of Farscape are not men with boobs. Aeryn, even though she is the most emtionally stunted woman on the crew, acts like a female. Not a guy. Now for those who like Alien. I heard on NPR that Weaver had signed to do another Alien movie. However that was the only place I heard it. So I don't know how true it is. Chris ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.