From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:49:27 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:33 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0102A" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 01:09:31 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Nights at the Circus OK, this is very late, but what a hard book. It took me almost the whole month to read less than 300 pages. If it weren't for the book club I certainly wouldn't have finished, and now I wish more did because it's certainly a book worth discussing. Is it a book about the nature of good versus evil with the Colonel playing the role of the devil? "The Escapee, who believed in man's inborn innocence and innate goodwill, had no defenses whatsoever against the Colonel because, of course, the Colonel believed in both those self-same things, although the Colonel had quite a different angle on them." I just finished reading _Mutant Message from Forever_ in which the Australian aborigines are depicted as the least violent people in touch with nature, able to communicate telepathically. They should be the highest, most respected culture on earth, if it weren't for people like the Colonel who take good and innocence and use it to exploit those good people for their own advantage. So do the good and innocent people invent religion to allow themselves to continue to be moral in spite of the power of the Colonels of the world by creating a higher force that rewards their goodness and punishes the Colonels'? Is this a feminist or an anti-feminist book? Fevvers, in spite of her attraction to the journalist is horrified at the idea of marrying him. "'But it is not possible that I should give myself,' said Fevvers. Her diction was exceedingly precise. 'My being, my me-ness, is unique and indivisible. To sell the use of myself for the enjoyment of another is one thing; I might even offer freely, out of gratitude or in the expectation of pleasure -- and pleasure alone is my expectation from the young American. But the essence of myself may not be given or taken, or what would there be left of me?' 'Besides,' added Fevvers urgently, 'here we are far away from churches and priests, who'll speak of marriage --' 'Oh, I daresay you'll find these woodsmen amongst whom your young man has found refuge uphold the institution of marriage as enthusiastically as other men do, although they may celebrate it differently. The harder the bargain men must strike with nature to survive, the more rules they're likely to have amongst themselves to keep them all in order. They'll have churches, here; and vicars, too, even if the vicars have weird cassocks and perform outrageous sacraments.'" So Fevvers says she'll steel him away and mould him, make "'a new man of him. I'll make him into the New Man , in fact, fitting mate for the New Woman, and onward we'll march hand in hand into the New Century --'" So what happens? She finds him and grows beautiful. She cooks for him, pampers him, and laughs and laughs a laugh heard around the world. Was the laugh because she really couldn't literally fly or because she realized she didn't want to fly, didn't want to be the fiercely independent woman she had pretended to be? Was the joke that she just wanted to be a wife? This book just begged for more controversy, but its style (never use a 25 cent word when a $25 one would suffice) I think pushed many of us away. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:47:21 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: BDG Nights at the Circus In-Reply-To: <004201c08c2e$b0ff9ce0$2aaaea18@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I am glad you wrote in even though it took a while for you to read the book. I found it hard to get into, and only finished it a little over a week ago, just before the other list got soooo busy. I really didn't enjoy the book until I finally got to the part in Petersburg, Russia, where they really were at the circus. I found the part about the monkey's classroom to be really interesting, and I suppose it was supposed to be a statement about humanity also. It just seemed as if things livened up at that point. Then the rest of the book moved fairly quickly. I think I have difficulties with what must be magical realism - I was puzzled by and had to read over several times the part where Fevvers is alone with the grand duke, seemingly in mortal danger, only to suddenly have the train from his collection become the train she needed to catch to move on to their next planned stop. I guess it reminds me of the part at the end of the movie, _ Men In Black_ where the marble is is our universe in a game of marbles played by other beings. Microcosms and Macrocosms. I don't know - it was wierd and I had to reread it several times before I was able to continue reading. I think your idea of the Colonel as the devil is really interesting. I hadn't seen it that way at all, but then I didn't really give him much thought either. I guess if I had to think something specifically about the colonel it would be that he suffered from hubris. Actually though, I think you are closer to the truth - in a way he is like one of those preachers who purport to perform healings etc. when in actuality they are dishonest and only want to separate the gullible from their assets, which is not too far a cry from the work of the devil. The colonel ( like the devil ?) takes advantage of anyone who will let him. I do think the novel was feminist or at least had distinctly feminist elements, some of which you pointed out by mentioning Fevver's feelings about givcing herself to anyone, and Lizzie's comments regarding men's ideas on marriage. Also the whole section in which the Countess's prisoners work up to their escape - the writing in blood etc. reminds me of the views of feminist literary criticism - and that Olga Alexandrovna drew a heart on her cell wall in the same substance, after she answered the note form her warden. A heart is like a circle - continuous, with an open center... And then the whole romance / soul conncection between Mignon and the Princess. One thing that puzzled me though was that there was a place where Carter makes a mistake - she says that Lizzie loses her pocketbook in the train wreck, and thus with the loss of that and their magical clock she is renedered unable to manipulate their circumstances to their benefit. "'Prepare yourself for the worst, gel; we've lost the bloody clock haven't we. Burnt to a crisp in the wreck most likely. First your sword, now my clock. We'll soon lose all track of time, and then what will become of us. Nelson's clock. Gone. And that's not all. My handbag. That's gone too.' This was a disaster so great I scarcely dare think of the distress it would cause us." Then, just 2 pages later, Carter writes " ...the clowns grew restive and were all for getting the fire-boy to open the door and shove her out in the snow but Lizzie found a pack of cards in her handbag and they settled down resentfully but quietly, while the Princess's passion wore itself out..." And then later when they are at the Conservatory and they are concerned about Fevvers roots showing and her feathers turning brown, they again bemoan the loss of Lizzie's handbag in the train wreck, "Lizzie's handbag might have contained peroxide to assist with the one growth and, perhaps a bottle of red ink to aid in the other - elementary household magic! - but the handbag was gone, irretrievably lost in the wreck of the train" As for the ending - that she fooled him and her infectious laughter - I confess I didn't get it. I imagine that that has something to do with the magical realism. - or perhaps just that I am obtuse, but I don't think that it is supposed to be that she sacrifices her self to become the perfect little wife, because a grwat deal is made of how he has been changed by his experiences in Petersburg, and in the Transbaikal. He is not the same Walser who was just going to send stories back to his american readership. As I was just rereading it I found myself thinking that it - the whole section from Petersburg to the end - was all a set-up created by Lizzie and Fevvers to convert him into the kind of man she wanted him to be. I can't really explain it, but it's just a feeling I got from the story - especially considering how much happened - how much hair growing, feather moulting, saving and love, found and lost etc... in what was really only about one week's worth of time. Rose Reith >OK, this is very late, but what a hard book. It took me almost the whole >month to read less than 300 pages. If it weren't for the book club I >certainly wouldn't have finished, and now I wish more did because it's >certainly a book worth discussing. > >Is it a book about the nature of good versus evil with the Colonel playing >the role of the devil? > >"The Escapee, who believed in man's inborn innocence and innate goodwill, >had no defenses whatsoever against the Colonel because, of course, the >Colonel believed in both those self-same things, although the Colonel had >quite a different angle on them." > >I just finished reading _Mutant Message from Forever_ in which the >Australian aborigines are depicted as the least violent people in touch with >nature, able to communicate telepathically. They should be the highest, >most respected culture on earth, if it weren't for people like the Colonel >who take good and innocence and use it to exploit those good people for >their own advantage. So do the good and innocent people invent religion to >allow themselves to continue to be moral in spite of the power of the >Colonels of the world by creating a higher force that rewards their goodness >and punishes the Colonels'? > >Is this a feminist or an anti-feminist book? Fevvers, in spite of her >attraction to the journalist is horrified at the idea of marrying him. > >"'But it is not possible that I should give myself,' said Fevvers. Her >diction was exceedingly precise. 'My being, my me-ness, is unique and >indivisible. To sell the use of myself for the enjoyment of another is one >thing; I might even offer freely, out of gratitude or in the expectation of >pleasure -- and pleasure alone is my expectation from the young American. >But the essence of myself may not be given or taken, or what would there be >left of me?' > >'Besides,' added Fevvers urgently, 'here we are far away from churches and >priests, who'll speak of marriage --' > >'Oh, I daresay you'll find these woodsmen amongst whom your young man has >found refuge uphold the institution of marriage as enthusiastically as other >men do, although they may celebrate it differently. The harder the bargain >men must strike with nature to survive, the more rules they're likely to >have amongst themselves to keep them all in order. They'll have churches, >here; and vicars, too, even if the vicars have weird cassocks and perform >outrageous sacraments.'" > >So Fevvers says she'll steel him away and mould him, make "'a new man of >him. I'll make him into the New Man , in fact, fitting mate for the New >Woman, and onward we'll march hand in hand into the New Century --'" > >So what happens? She finds him and grows beautiful. She cooks for him, >pampers him, and laughs and laughs a laugh heard around the world. Was the >laugh because she really couldn't literally fly or because she realized she >didn't want to fly, didn't want to be the fiercely independent woman she had >pretended to be? Was the joke that she just wanted to be a wife? > >This book just begged for more controversy, but its style (never use a 25 >cent word when a $25 one would suffice) I think pushed many of us away. > >Joyce > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:38:05 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: stories about menses Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I was recently reading a lot online about menstruation and the story "Even the Queen" by Connie Willis was mentioned on The Museum of Menstruation, so I read it. I was a little disappointed in the story because I wanted to read something more "menstrual positive." I couldn't tell if Willis was making fun of her characters or if she was agreeing with them (this was my first experience with reading Willis, so I'm not sure what her usual tone is). So I was wondering if there are any other SFF stories or novels about menstruation and if any of them might celebrate it. Thank you. Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:03:21 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: stories about menses In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010201223329.00b642b0@mail.superior.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jennifer: > I was recently reading a lot online about menstruation and the > story "Even the Queen" by Connie Willis was mentioned on The Museum > of Menstruation, so I read it. I was a little disappointed in the > story because I wanted to read something more "menstrual positive." > I couldn't tell if Willis was making fun of her characters or if > she was agreeing with them (this was my first experience with > reading Willis, so I'm not sure what her usual tone is). So I was > wondering if there are any other SFF stories or novels about > menstruation and if any of them might celebrate it. Thank you. I wish I could suggest one, but I'm only replying order to say that the mockingly anti-feminist "Even the Queen" put me off Willis forever! Women's inequality is just down to our cantankerous bodies; when someone invents a wonderdrug to stop our periods (like they haven't already), which are totally incapacitating, *then* we'll be equal with men. Except for the eco-feminist loonies. Argh! Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 05:19:57 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Connie Willis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Well, "Even the Queen" turned me on to Connie Willis forever. I thought it was hilarious. And I didn't think it was at all anti-feminist: taking one side of a debate WITHIN feminism, sure. Marge Piercy and Shulamith Firestone also argue that technology as a way out of the biological specifics of femininity is a positive step for women - are you going to call them anti-feminist too? I mean really, what is there to *celebrate* about menstruation? Sure, if you are revolted at the idea of tasting your own menstrual blood, you've got a long way to go, baby - but that doesn't mean you have to quaff the stuff down whenever you get the opportunity. kate (frankly glad she has the technology to turn her periods on and off at will) >From: Kate Orman >Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] stories about menses >Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:03:21 +1100 > >Jennifer: > > > I was recently reading a lot online about menstruation and the > > story "Even the Queen" by Connie Willis was mentioned on The Museum > > of Menstruation, so I read it. I was a little disappointed in the > > story because I wanted to read something more "menstrual positive." > > I couldn't tell if Willis was making fun of her characters or if > > she was agreeing with them (this was my first experience with > > reading Willis, so I'm not sure what her usual tone is). So I was > > wondering if there are any other SFF stories or novels about > > menstruation and if any of them might celebrate it. Thank you. > >I wish I could suggest one, but I'm only replying order to say that >the mockingly anti-feminist "Even the Queen" put me off Willis >forever! Women's inequality is just down to our cantankerous >bodies; when someone invents a wonderdrug to stop our periods >(like they haven't already), which are totally incapacitating, *then* >we'll be equal with men. Except for the eco-feminist loonies. Argh! > > >Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ >"I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 00:26:05 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: stories about menses In-Reply-To: <3A7ADA49.30435.1401BA7@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:03 PM 2/2/01 +1100, you wrote: >I wish I could suggest one, but I'm only replying order to say that >the mockingly anti-feminist "Even the Queen" put me off Willis >forever! Women's inequality is just down to our cantankerous >bodies; when someone invents a wonderdrug to stop our periods >(like they haven't already), which are totally incapacitating, *then* >we'll be equal with men. Except for the eco-feminist loonies. Argh! >Kate Orman I got the same anti- feminist feeling from it. I guess I expected it to be in support of menstruation and to have it be making fun of it instead really bothered me- especially after reading so many women's comments on The Museum of Menstruation about how much they hated menstruating and an article on there about the drugs you mention above. I hadn't really thought of the aspect in the story that women only need to get rid of their periods to be equal to men. Thanks for bringing that up. I definitely related more to the "eco-feminist loonies." : ) Oh, one more thing, in the intro to the story, Willis said she often gets criticized for not dealing with women's issues and she seemed sarcastic about it. That put me off a bit before I even read the story. Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 00:38:04 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:19 AM 2/2/01 +0000, you wrote: >Well, "Even the Queen" turned me on to Connie Willis forever. I thought it >was hilarious. And I didn't think it was at all anti-feminist: taking one >side of a debate WITHIN feminism, sure. Marge Piercy and Shulamith Firestone >also argue that technology as a way out of the biological specifics of >femininity is a positive step for women - are you going to call them >anti-feminist too? But why should we have to get rid of something that is totally feminine to become equal to men? To me that's making women more like men instead of accepting the differences between us. I don't see turning off our periods as a positive step, I see it as a step toward being female men. I would see an acceptance of our periods with less embarrassment and disgust as being a more positive step for women. >I mean really, what is there to *celebrate* about menstruation? Sure, if you >are revolted at the idea of tasting your own menstrual blood, you've got a >long way to go, baby - but that doesn't mean you have to quaff the stuff >down whenever you get the opportunity. >kate (frankly glad she has the technology to turn her periods on and off at >will) Obviously, I'm coming at it from the totally opposite direction. I think maybe if we celebrated menstruation more, maybe girls would feel better about their bodies and wouldn't feel so ashamed. Well, I don't trust the technology at all, personally. Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:59:06 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Obviously, I'm coming at it from the totally opposite direction. I > think maybe if we celebrated menstruation more, maybe girls would feel > better about their bodies and wouldn't feel so ashamed. > Well, I don't trust the technology at all, personally. > Jennifer Huh? Ashamed? I'm FAR from ashamed of my body, or of menstruation, or of the fact that I'm female, but I also am glad I have the option to not have my period if I don't want to; as someone with no plans to procreate, it's nothing but a messy painful hassle. I see it as similar to the choice to wear a bra; technology allows me to bind my breasts comfortably; if I go without for a day, I HURT, so I'm grateful I have the option. I don't think wearing a jogbra makes me any more "manlike" because it makes me flatter than choosing not to have my period does. As an aside, I've loved every single thing Willis has published, myself; some of it's a little weird, but it's all GOOD (IMHO, of course!). -Sandy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:26:51 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010202002653.00b73720@mail.superior.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:38 AM 2/02/01 -0500, you wrote: >At 05:19 AM 2/2/01 +0000, you wrote: >>Well, "Even the Queen" turned me on to Connie Willis forever. I thought it >>was hilarious. And I didn't think it was at all anti-feminist: taking one >>side of a debate WITHIN feminism, sure. Marge Piercy and Shulamith Firestone >>also argue that technology as a way out of the biological specifics of >>femininity is a positive step for women - are you going to call them >>anti-feminist too? I thought Firestone rethought later? Partly because she missed issues of control & power of things like reprotech - remember she wrote "pregnancy is barbaric" over a decade before there was even a hint of reprotech becoming a reality - and later writings started to question just *who* has control & power over such things? Sure isnt women. In some machine tech artificial reproductive future - I wonder whether there will be 'equal' access to it? As for Marge Piercy I thought it was the one aspect of her utopia in 'Woman on the Edge of Time' that didn't quite gel for me - a character says "we all had to give up our power bases"... like this totally mythical "power" of having babies is a one-to-one "equal" exchange for the huge powerbases of men? Like they don't have enough already? Ahahahahahahaha... but my immediate reaction was - "How much *power* have mothers ever had anyway?"... men have always controlled reproduction, by controlling individual women, and mothers (as a social group) remain the most controlled, vulnerable and least powerful of all women. Methinx these authors have personal issues surrounding dislike of their own biology to deal with - rather than work for a world in which women's biology can "fit" comfortably and equally alongside men's - (it is after all - human biology) we have to get rid of it, or reconstruct women's lives and bodies to "fit" the male biological norms, or alternatively masculine fantasies of "ideal" women - who have huge boobs, (that never lactate), no body hair, no smells, no sweats, no secretions, no stretch-marks, ... > But why should we have to get rid of something that is totally feminine >to become equal to men? To me that's making women more like men instead of >accepting the differences between us. I don't see turning off our periods >as a positive step, I see it as a step toward being female men. I would >see an acceptance of our periods with less embarrassment and disgust as >being a more positive step for women. Yes, I see it as a step toward being female men too:) when people yadda, yadda about 'Biology is Destiny" - I like to stir them up by asking - , yeah - but *WHOSE* biology? Are we all destined to adopt male biology, along with male sexuality, male heirarchies, male power-trips etc? Doing that still says female is inferior, male is superior, so lets just get rid of all the inferior female bits, and become superiors too - and hey presto - everybody is magically equal? Blaming biology also takes all responsibility off men to do any changing of themselves, ie. male is normal, female is abnormal, and therefore only females need to be "fixed" because men are already born perfect and dont need any changes. As Greer also said ' No amount of EEO Legislation will allow me to feel comfortable in my woman's body until men and women accept that my body is human, and its the world that needs changing, not our bodies" Julieanne ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 03:42:18 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <3A7A5ABA.DF488BFB@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:59 PM 2/1/01 -0800, you wrote: >Huh? Ashamed? I'm FAR from ashamed of my body, or of menstruation, or of the >fact that I'm female, but I also am glad I have the option to not have my >period >if I don't want to; as someone with no plans to procreate, it's nothing but a >messy painful hassle. I see it as similar to the choice to wear a bra; >technology allows me to bind my breasts comfortably; if I go without for a >day, I >HURT, so I'm grateful I have the option. I don't think wearing a jogbra >makes me >any more "manlike" because it makes me flatter than choosing not to have my >period does. >As an aside, I've loved every single thing Willis has published, myself; >some of >it's a little weird, but it's all GOOD (IMHO, of course!). > -Sandy I didn't mean that all women who dislike their periods and would prefer to be rid of it are ashamed of their bodies. What I mean is that in general, women are made to be ashamed of their bodies and I feel like the way periods are treated in the U.S. helps contribute to this (and many of the women on the web site I mentioned who wanted to be rid of their periods WERE ashamed of their bodies and their periods). We are taught to hate a biological function that sets us apart from men. I read this great article by Gloria Steinem in which she went on about what the world would be like if men menstruated. It was quite funny, but also quite true. I'm not saying that you are more manlike if you chose not to have your period, but if society *expected* that of women like in the Willis story, wouldn't society really be seeing us as more manlike since men don't menstruate? Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 03:56:15 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010202182651.00aac100@pop.ozemail.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:26 PM 2/2/01 +1100, you wrote: >rather than work for a world in which women's >biology can "fit" comfortably and equally alongside men's - (it is after >all - human biology) we have to get rid of it, or reconstruct women's lives >and bodies to "fit" the male biological norms, or alternatively masculine >fantasies of "ideal" women - who have huge boobs, (that never lactate), no >body hair, no smells, no sweats, no secretions, no stretch-marks, ... >Yes, I see it as a step toward being female men too:) >when people yadda, yadda about 'Biology is Destiny" - I like to stir them >up by asking - , yeah - but *WHOSE* biology? Are we all destined to adopt >male biology, along with male sexuality, male heirarchies, male power-trips >etc? Doing that still says female is inferior, male is superior, so lets >just get rid of all the inferior female bits, and become superiors too - >and hey presto - everybody is magically equal? >Blaming biology also takes all responsibility off men to do any changing of >themselves, ie. male is normal, female is abnormal, and therefore only >females need to be "fixed" because men are already born perfect and dont >need any changes. >As Greer also said ' No amount of EEO Legislation will allow me to feel >comfortable in my woman's body until men and women accept that my body is >human, and its the world that needs changing, not our bodies" >Julieanne You said it much better than I tried to. I've read a lot in the past few years about women who object to women characters in movies and books who are basically men with boobs, and it's made me think a lot about that concept in both fiction and in real life. The Willis story and this conversation have made me evaluate it even more. I agree with what you said about blaming biology taking the blame away from men. I get the feeling often that society does see men as the ideal and if women just become more manlike, then they can be equals. I hope it's not just clueless idealism on my part to hope that women can be accepted as equals to men and that things like different biological functions can be disregarded, or even better: embraced. I swear I will scream that next time I hear a man say he wouldn't trust a woman president because she might start a nuclear war due to her PMS! What is the title of the book by Firestone? I'd like to read as much as I can about this topic. Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 21:13:32 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010202034419.00bdca90@mail.superior.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:56 AM 2/02/01 -0500, Jennifer R. J. wrote: > You said it much better than I tried to. I've read a lot in the past >few years about women who object to women characters in movies and books >who are basically men with boobs, and it's made me think a lot about that >concept in both fiction and in real life. The Willis story and this >conversation have made me evaluate it even more. > What is the title of the book by Firestone? I'd like to read as much >as I can about this topic. Hi Jennifer - Shulamith Firestone wrote 'The Dialectic of Sex' in the 70s, I think. The most famous quote is "Pregnancy is Barbaric!.... Childbirth hurts!" - which is in a chapter concerned with reproduction etc - and Firestone speculates that technology might prove beneficial to women in removing the "tyranny of reproduction" - but its only a small part of the whole book which looks at various areas of sexual politics. I suspect it is out-of-print by now - but it still appears on University/College reading lists as a standard text, so I would think most libraries would have it. Juliet Mitchell's 'Sexual Politics' written around the same time is also worthwhile - I see these theories/analyses as very early developments in feminist theory, by the early 1980s this development and growth of thinking had continued to expand by feminists in other areas of femininity and biology etc: "Of Woman Born : Motherhood as Institution & Experience" - Adrienne Rich " Gyn / Ecology " - Mary Daly (warning: these 2 books are, in places, emotionally painful to read) "The Transsexual Empire" - Janice Raymond ( I *think* it was her:) - which focusses on the "men with boobs" issues. "Sex & Destiny: The Politics of Human Fertility" - Germaine Greer (my personal favourite of all of Greer's works, better than Female Eunuch, and I think her latest book 'The Whole Woman' may not make a lot of sense unless the reader is familiar with 'Sex & Destiny') There's another Greer book as sort-of sequel: "The Change: Women, Ageing & Menopause" By the late 80s and 90s when Reprotech was on the rise - analyses started to expand even more, and lots of scholarship went into looking at the history of the Pill, hormonal contraception, IVF etc. But thats enough to start with huh?:) Cheers - Julieanne:) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:52:20 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG schedule February to June MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT In a very close race your votes determined the next BDG books. The winners are: Nancy Kress: Beggars in Spain Elizabeth A. Lynn: The Northern Girl Louise Marley: The Terrorists of Irustan Vonda N. McIntyre: The Moon and the Sun The BDG schedule for the next months is as follows: 5 February: Suzy McKee Charnas: The Conquerer's Child 5 March: Louise Marley: The Terrorists of Irustan 2 April: Elizabeth A. Lynn: The Northern Girl 7 May: Vonda N. McIntyre: The Moon and the Sun 4 June: Nancy Kress: Beggars in Spain We will update the BDG website accordingly in the next days. By the way, _Illicit Passage_ came close (lots of books came close, we're thinking about ways to break ties). That to those who'd like to organize ordering this book. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:21:59 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I didn't mean that all women who dislike their periods and would > prefer to be rid of it are ashamed of their bodies. What I mean is that in > general, women are made to be ashamed of their bodies and I feel like the > way periods are treated in the U.S. helps contribute to this (and many of > the women on the web site I mentioned who wanted to be rid of their periods > WERE ashamed of their bodies and their periods). We are taught to hate a > biological function that sets us apart from men. I read this great article > by Gloria Steinem in which she went on about what the world would be like > if men menstruated. It was quite funny, but also quite true. > I'm not saying that you are more manlike if you chose not to have your > period, but if society *expected* that of women like in the Willis story, > wouldn't society really be seeing us as more manlike since men don't > menstruate? > Jennifer Ah....this does clarify a bit. I guess I've never really deep-down understood the idea that a female ought to be ashamed of being female...I was raised by a very much in-charge mother and a more passive father, with no brothers to compare to, and was NEVER limited in what I could do or dream, or told that I was anything less than fully capable because of my gender....so coming from that space, and also being a person who values personal comfort above almost everything else, I see menstruation as a hassle not because it's something that sets me apart from the boys, but simply because it hurts me personally. I haven't read "even the queen" in quite a few years; I'll have to find it and read it again more critically to see if I can get what you're saying. -Sandy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:29:22 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I didn't mean that all women who dislike their periods and would > prefer to be rid of it are ashamed of their bodies. What I mean is that in > general, women are made to be ashamed of their bodies and I feel like the > way periods are treated in the U.S. helps contribute to this (and many of > the women on the web site I mentioned who wanted to be rid of their periods > WERE ashamed of their bodies and their periods). We are taught to hate a > biological function that sets us apart from men. I read this great article > by Gloria Steinem in which she went on about what the world would be like > if men menstruated. It was quite funny, but also quite true. > I'm not saying that you are more manlike if you chose not to have your > period, but if society *expected* that of women like in the Willis story, > wouldn't society really be seeing us as more manlike since men don't > menstruate? > Jennifer Ah..that does clarify for me a bit; I've never really understood the concept of being ashamed of being female...I was raised by a very much in-charge mother and a father who preferred to let her make most of the decisions, and no brothers to compare to; I was NEVER limited in what I could attempt, and never told there was ANYTHING I couldn't do because of my gender. Coming from that space, and also as a peron who values personal comfort above almost all else, I have trouble grasping the idea of disliking menstruation for any other reason than becuase it hurts. It's been years since I read "even the queen"; I'll have to find it and read it again more critically to see if I can get what you're saying. -Sandy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:56:04 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: menstruation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <3A7AD097.44C25EB@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:21 AM 2/2/01 -0800, you wrote: >Ah....this does clarify a bit. I guess I've never really deep-down >understood the >idea that a female ought to be ashamed of being female...I was raised by a >very >much in-charge mother and a more passive father, with no brothers to >compare to, >and was NEVER limited in what I could do or dream, or told that I was >anything less >than fully capable because of my gender....so coming from that space, and also >being a person who values personal comfort above almost everything else, I see >menstruation as a hassle not because it's something that sets me apart >from the >boys, but simply because it hurts me personally. >I haven't read "even the queen" in quite a few years; I'll have to find it >and read >it again more critically to see if I can get what you're saying. > -Sandy I knew I would probably have to clarify a bit because my writing last night just wasn't working. I didn't feel like I was able to make my points clearly and I was mistyping left and right- as evidenced by my (previously) misspelled subject line. I just couldn't write effectively last night. I grew up in the same situation, except my father was mostly absent rather than being passive. But they both had something to do with me being unashamed to be female. I see menstruation is a hassle sometimes too, especially because I have a chronic illness and they make each other worse, but I don't think I'd get rid of it. For one, it would mean taking more drugs than I already take and I'm paranoid about how they would affect each other. I wouldn't mind just being able to get rid of the pain aspect though. Like I said, I think maybe the reason I was so critical of it was that I had just gotten rather down by reading so many women's comments about how disgusting their periods are and I really wanted to read something that was more period positive. If I had read it at a different time, I might have had a totally different perspective. And I do plan to read more of Connie Willis's works. Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:02:17 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Subject: On the topic of Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010201223329.00b642b0@mail.superior.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hey gang! I just thought I would let you all know that Connie Willis is the guest of honour at a sci-fi literary convention at the end of this month in Toronto. Check out http://www.ad-astra.org/ to find out more. I am to be one of several panelists at the convention. I had a great time last year. I'm hoping it will be a blast again. Lyla Miklos __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:28:27 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: menses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, wasn't there a recent article about the increased number of years spent with a menstrual cycle (due to extended life spans and postponement of child birth) causing some health problems for women? Our bodies haven't caught up to our choices yet, in some ways. The article said some women are using birth control pills, etc. to only menstruate a few times a year, with some positive results. Maybe that's why we so seldom hear about it in SF novels? Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:25:27 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Misha Bernard Subject: menstruation book citation & Connie Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi all because Maryelizabeth mention ideas about how unusual regular menses might be for the 'average' or 'normal' woman, I thought I would pass along at the bottom of this message a citation for a book (thin, I got it through Interlibrary Loan, but didn't have time to finish it last year and haven't got back to it). There are the reviews/responses that were also forwarded to me by a classmate. As for the Connie Willis story, what stands-out more in my memory of that story than any anti-female (rather than anti-feminist I would say) take is a story of rebellion/family and the power of convincing. I saw Willis idea as a society of choice (to have a shunt put in to eliminate menstrual evacuation... what I imagined I wanted at some points- a spigot that I could turn on and off, rather than deal with tampons/pads/etc) dealing with comfort versus 'authenticity' of the female body. HOWever, what I mostly think about is how the mother (or was it grandmother) was ignored in her 'wisdom' and the (great)grandmother managed to diffuse the situation (and come out ahead) by seeming permissive AND the fact that the daughter who was interested in the shunt really hadn't thought it all through. I thought Willis was commenting on how some aspects of women's movement AND SF suggested ideas that were not necessarily practicable or desirable for lots of women/people. Misha Bernard Cultural Studies PhD student mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason University ------------------------- -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- Ursula K. Le Guin "World Making" (1981) Here's info on that book on menstruation--plus a couple of reviews to give you an idea of the content (and reactions!) Is Menstruation Obsolete? by Elsimar M. Coutinho, Sheldon J. Segal (Contributor) Oxford UP, 1999. From Booklist, September 15, 1999 If your first reaction to the title is to wonder what idiocy the next offbeat author will write about, pinch yourself hard and read carefully. Coutinho, a recognized authority on fallopian tube physiology and pharmacology, is absolutely serious. He approaches his subject historically and scientifically (Segal prepared this English-language edition of the originally Brazilian Portuguese work). Down through the centuries, he points out, most women did not menstruate regularly. Either they were pregnant most of the time or they succumbed early to the many dangers and diseases that preyed on them. Menstruation has become regular and long-term for the typical woman only quite recently. Coutinho explores the purposes of this physiological function, its potential dangers, and its safe suppression (he has done pioneering work with Depo-Provera). His arguments are scientifically based, and his conclusions are thoroughly worked out in a definitely provocative but eminently worthwhile book that well may spend most of its prospective library shelf-life off the shelf. From Kirkus Reviews Women have evolved past the need for menstruation, goes this questionable argument, and now should be relieved of the problem of an unnecessary monthly loss of blood. Coutinho (Gynecology, Obstetrics and Human Reproduction/Federal University of Bahia School of Medicine in Brazil) first advanced this startling opinion in a 1996 Portuguese edition of this work. Here he teams up with Segal (Distinguished Scientist at the Population Council in New York) to make the case that ``recurrent menstruation is unnecessary and can be harmful to women. It is a needless loss of blood.'' Biologically, the authors contend, women were designed to live shorter lives and to spend most of their reproductive lives pregnant or lactating, and so not ovulating. Longer human life spans and many fewer children mean more menstrual cycles, more cycle-related illnesses, an increased risk of such dangerous diseases as ovarian and endometrial cancers, and a serious worldwide problem of female anemia. ``The attitude that menstruation is a `natural event' and therefore beneficial to women has no basis in scientific fact,'' conclude Coutinho and Segal, who therefore advise using long-acting contraceptives or continuously using oral contraceptives (with no monthly break to allow pointless bleeding) to achieve ``freedom from menstruation.'' ``Under proper medical supervision,'' they further suggest, ``it can also be attained through natural means such as a conscientious regimen of rigorous exercise.'' It's difficult to imagine a world in which women would have the time for an exercise regimen of the level required to stop menstruation (literally hours each day), more difficult still to imagine this entire argument holding much appeal or even interest for readers of either sex. ### ======================================================================== Lynne M. Constantine Cultural Studies Program George Mason University lconstan@osf1.gmu.edu (703) 379-4855 ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:53:23 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: stories about menses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I knew there was a reason I can't stand Connie Willis! Amy > > I wish I could suggest one, but I'm only replying order to say that > the mockingly anti-feminist "Even the Queen" put me off Willis > forever! Women's inequality is just down to our cantankerous > bodies; when someone invents a wonderdrug to stop our periods > (like they haven't already), which are totally incapacitating, *then* > we'll be equal with men. Except for the eco-feminist loonies. Argh! > > > Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ > "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:55:31 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Couldn't agree with you more Jennifer! Amy > But why should we have to get rid of something that is totally feminine > to become equal to men? To me that's making women more like men instead of > accepting the differences between us. I don't see turning off our periods > as a positive step, I see it as a step toward being female men. I would > see an acceptance of our periods with less embarrassment and disgust as > being a more positive step for women. > > > >I mean really, what is there to *celebrate* about menstruation? Sure, if you > >are revolted at the idea of tasting your own menstrual blood, you've got a > >long way to go, baby - but that doesn't mean you have to quaff the stuff > >down whenever you get the opportunity. > >kate (frankly glad she has the technology to turn her periods on and off at > >will) > > Obviously, I'm coming at it from the totally opposite direction. I > think maybe if we celebrated menstruation more, maybe girls would feel > better about their bodies and wouldn't feel so ashamed. > Well, I don't trust the technology at all, personally. > Jennifer > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:04:16 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: menses In-Reply-To: <3A7AEE3B.8FF5F03F@mystgalaxy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Not to mention articles about girls hitting puberty at age 9 and 10 and earlier (breasts, periods, etc.) possibly because of the level of hormones in beef, etc. And the problems that causes.... I'm just rereading Tepper's _Gibbon's Decline and Fall_ in which a "virus" has been spread over the earth reducing male and female secondary sexual attributes and appetites in order to help create equality for men and women, heh heh heh.... Robin At 09:28 AM 02/02/2001 -0800, you wrote: >Actually, wasn't there a recent article about the increased number of >years spent with a menstrual cycle (due to extended life spans and >postponement of child birth) causing some health problems for women? Our >bodies haven't caught up to our choices yet, in some ways. The article >said some women are using birth control pills, etc. to only menstruate a >few times a year, with some positive results. > >Maybe that's why we so seldom hear about it in SF novels? > >Maryelizabeth > > >-- >******************************************************************* >Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 >7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 >San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 >http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: >mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com > >******************************************************************* > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 21:22:33 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Heather Stark Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alternative reproduction technology is widely available... (e.g. Cherryh (Cyteen et cetera). Bujold. Many others to numerous to spotlight....) but most treatments don't go into the nitty gritty that much - they mostly avoid the infrastructure implications. My opinion on the current design is very similar to my views on the human backbone...as in: if you were designing it from scratch, for optimal performance in current circumstances....you'd do it differently (and, for a quiet life, don't get me started on the subject of the horrible mishmash of stuff that lives in human knees...) As to whether pregnancy and childbirth is a reasonable compensation for the hassle of menstruation...I can't say from personal experience. But I think there is reason for pride, more than shame. Doesn't the yearning for physical connection stem from all our origins, of being physically connected to our mothers? Placenta, then breast. I speak of intimacy. quietly, Heather ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:12:32 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: menses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If it was the article I read, the most bizarre part was there seems to be some validity to the cause and effect of cultural/peer pressure. Look at Brittany Spears, develop breasts earlier... Robin Reid wrote: > Not to mention articles about girls hitting puberty at age 9 and 10 and > earlier (breasts, periods, etc.) possibly because of the level of hormones > in beef, etc. > > And the problems that causes.... > > I'm just rereading Tepper's _Gibbon's Decline and Fall_ in which a "virus" > has been spread over the earth reducing male and female secondary sexual > attributes and appetites in order to help create equality for men and > women, heh heh heh.... > > Robin > > At 09:28 AM 02/02/2001 -0800, you wrote: > >Actually, wasn't there a recent article about the increased number of > >years spent with a menstrual cycle (due to extended life spans and > >postponement of child birth) causing some health problems for women? Our > >bodies haven't caught up to our choices yet, in some ways. The article > >said some women are using birth control pills, etc. to only menstruate a > >few times a year, with some positive results. > > > >Maybe that's why we so seldom hear about it in SF novels? > > > >Maryelizabeth > > > > > >-- > >******************************************************************* > >Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 > >7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 > >San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 > >http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: > >mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com > > > >******************************************************************* > > > >------------------------------------------------------ > >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:29:11 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: menses In-Reply-To: <3A7B30D0.22362931@mystgalaxy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:12 PM 2/02/01 -0800, you wrote: >If it was the article I read, the most bizarre part was there seems to be some >validity to the cause and effect of cultural/peer pressure. Look at Brittany >Spears, develop breasts earlier... There's also evidence that stress impacts on precocious puberty, abused children often enter puberty early etc - its certainly well-known in other mammals with population stress - Hormones in animal meats are the least likely, (that issue is a trade issue which has nothing to do with health) - but after World War 2 with improved public health standards in the Western world at least - eg. the eradication of many childhood diseases, introduction of flouridated water supplies (along with chlorine amongst other things) and improved nutrition have had a huge impact on children's and adolescent health, particularly on bone growth and density, thryoid & parathyroid function leading to increased average height & weight, and earlier onset of puberty in both sexes. Because so little data has ever been collected on women's menstrual health it is difficult to make any firm conclusions over time - but there is also evidence that women's menstrual cycles have changed dramatically over the centuries, more prolonged, more frequent and heavier bleeding - due to differences in fat:muscle ratios, inadequate physical exercise, changing work patterns, increased stress levels and inappropriate diets. The best example to illustrate this is sportswomen, who tend to have light periods, and of shorter duration than average, or lose them altogether for varying periods of time. This is similar to the cycles of nomadic women in traditional cultures who are walking great distances and have higher muscle:fat ratios - this is one of the reasons women's health workers are trying to promote sports for girls in schools and for women throughout life - obesity on the other hand, is correlated with heavier, more painful, more frequent and more prolonged periods - leading to other health problems like iron deficiency, renal, adrenal and thryoid imbalances. Sedentary life-styles eg. sitting for long periods at office computer terminals doesn't help either - and nor does stress levels. Uterine disease in women over 35 is correlated with incidence of heart disease in men - which again, supports the stress hypothesis. In the Western world, 1 in 4 white women over the age of 35 have uterine disease - approximately half, or 1 in 8 will have debilitating symptoms, and its the leading cause of hysterectomy in older women, eg - fibroids, polyps, endometriosis etc. In African-American women this is higher still at 1 in 3..and similar in some Asian groups and central/south American groups it is also higher than white women, though it is much lower in some other cultures - which also tends to support the stress-illness factors in dysfunctional menstrual bleeding patterns - As for hormonal contraceptives such as the Pill, and injectables such as Depo - these have never been useful for a large majority of women anyway - so consider yourself lucky if it works without problems. Thousands of women died or suffered massive cerebral strokes over a 10-15 year period in at least 8 countries - took a lot of experimentation, & a lot of tragic mistakes to "get it right" with the 3rd and 4th generation Pills on the market today. And you can thank some of these women who became disabled for life, for lobbying govts & pharmaceutical companies to provide things like Patient Information leaflets describing risks etc, and 'ethical informed consent' legislation etc. as women do vary enormously - eg. two sisters can both take Depo, and one loses her periods for months, and the other starts haemorrhaging etc. This is one of the many reasons women's health activists are opposed to Norplant, particularly in very young women who may not have completed bone development. Females are different to males in bone-setting processes in adolescence - females lower spines & pelvises do not finish 'fusing' until late adolescence or even well into the 20s. Using hormones before the bones have finished fusing has been partly blamed for pregnancy problems, spinal problems, arthritis and osteoporosis in later life. Oestrogen-based preps are also often contraindicated in women over 35 due to the increased incidence of uterine diseases mentioned above - even more so if they smoke, or are overweight etc. progestogen-only pills are usually prescribed instead - but these have an increased incidence of 'break-through spotting' and other side-effects, as well as reduced efficacy. Cheers - Julieanne:) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:41:15 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kate: > Well, "Even the Queen" turned me on to Connie Willis forever. I > thought it was hilarious. I would have found it funnier if I hadn't guessed in .5 s what the "Cyclists" were. :-) > And I didn't think it was at all anti-feminist: taking one side of > a debate WITHIN feminism, sure. Marge Piercy and Shulamith > Firestone also argue that technology as a way out of the biological > specifics of femininity is a positive step for women - are you > going to call them anti-feminist too? Sure, if they put across the idea that women's oppression is the fault of our own hopelessly malfunctioning bodies. > I mean really, what is there to *celebrate* about menstruation? > Sure, if you are revolted at the idea of tasting your own menstrual > blood, you've got a long way to go, baby - but that doesn't mean > you have to quaff the stuff down whenever you get the opportunity. I doubt many women celebrate their menstruation - though some do, and we should certainly be honouring both menarche and menopause instead of treating them like embarrassing malfunctions. But that's completely irrelevant. The implication of Willis' story is that once we kill our periods, we get equality; *that's* what's been holding us back. The chat about the awfulness of periods is amusing, but it also conveys the idea that periods cripple women. For some women, they are severely debilitating; for most women, they're just a nuisance. We can kill our periods *right now* if we want to, and in fact, many of us do - and yet, I suspect Ashcroft (and in Australia, Howard) pose a greater threat to our equality than the rags do. Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 14:18:05 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010202182651.00aac100@pop.ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Julieanne: > I thought Firestone rethought later? Partly because she missed > issues of control & power of things like reprotech - remember she > wrote "pregnancy is barbaric" over a decade before there was even a > hint of reprotech becoming a reality - and later writings started > to question just *who* has control & power over such things? > Sure isnt women. In some machine tech artificial reproductive > future - I wonder whether there will be 'equal' access to it? The Australian government is moving to limit access to assisted reproduction - usually AI, though IVF too - for lesbian couples and single women. While a lot of technology has obvious benefits for women, technology by itself guarantees us nothing. [snipped lots of excellent thoughts] Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 14:18:05 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Edmund Cooper? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Not quite sure if this is strictly on topic! But from the latest Ansible (issue 163, Feb 2001): "EDMUND COOPER was mentioned in _A161_, provoking a rant from _Ian Covell_ about the fading of this author's reputation. Apparently his publishers Hodder & Stoughton held grimly on to book rights for decades, refusing either to revert or reprint, so that `gradually he slipped from the current crop; commentary by the feminist mafia didn't help.' [...] " I just wondered what the "feminist mafia" had to say about Cooper's writing... :-) Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:53:44 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: stories about menses In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010201223329.00b642b0@mail.superior.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:38 PM 2/1/01 -0500, you wrote: > I was recently reading a lot online about menstruation and the story >"Even the Queen" by Connie Willis was mentioned on The Museum of >Menstruation, so I read it. I was a little disappointed in the story >because I wanted to read something more "menstrual positive." I couldn't >tell if Willis was making fun of her characters or if she was agreeing with >them (this was my first experience with reading Willis, so I'm not sure >what her usual tone is). So I was wondering if there are any other SFF >stories or novels about menstruation and if any of them might celebrate >it. It will probably take you a while to find a copy, but get hold of Sturgeon's _Some of Your Blood_, a sympathetic vampire story not decades but generations ahead of its time. Given the over-the-top characters in "Even the Queen", it's hard not to see it as, in large part, burlesque. I don't recall the exact phrasing, but Connie has said that she wrote it because she was getting hasled for not writing enough about "women's issues". She barely _has_ a "usual tone". Her writing is all over the map. Much of it, arguably, isn't science fiction at all, but she's so beyond category that we get her ("hooray!" says I). Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:54:02 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <004e01c08d5e$42a00740$7769ff3e@has-home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:22 PM 2/2/01 -0000, Heather Stark wrote: > >My opinion on the current design is very similar to my views on the human >backbone...as in: > > if you were designing it from scratch, for optimal performance in >current circumstances....you'd do it differently (and, for a quiet life, >don't get me started on the subject of the horrible mishmash of stuff that >lives in human knees...) > >As to whether pregnancy and childbirth is a reasonable compensation for the >hassle of menstruation...I can't say from personal experience. But I think >there is reason for pride, more than shame. > Upright posture is still a rough draft, evolutionarily: fallen arches; varicose veins; hip problems; the combinations of problems of babies with larger heads and people (most importantly here, female people!) with narrower pelvises, those pelvises holding the internal organs instead of slinging them from the spine, leading to hernias; myriad varieties of back prolems; . . . I'm not up-to-the-minute on it, but human sexuality, including the menstrual cycle, is very distinct from that of other great apes. How it fits into the evolution is still not really understood. Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 17:57:33 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: stories about menses In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010202235344.00ff79d0@pop.enteract.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT To answer the original question :-), see if you can find a copy of Stephen Dedman's "From Whom All Blessings Flow" (it's in "Centaurus: The best of Australian science fiction"). Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 01:36:38 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: menstruation Ever since I first heard of the book Is Menstruation Obsolete by Elsimar M. Coutinho I thought this was another attempt by a man to show that in the ways a woman's body differs from a man's it is pathological. It is a normal part of life to menstruate. In fact, since women outnumber men, I would say that not to menstruate, gestate or lactate between the years of 10 -16 to 40 or 60 is abnormal. Perhaps the inability of men to do so is the cause of their shorter life span. Perhaps our hormonal cycles linking us with the cycles of the moon, the cycles of life are the cause of the extension of our lives. He says women spend much of their lives anemic. We do have a lower amount of hemoglobin than men, but perhaps rather than our being anemic, they spend their lives being polycythemic leading to increased rates of hypertension and heart disease. He states that in the past women did not menstruate regularly. They either spent their lives pregnant or died young. As a proponent of artificial chemical contraception perhaps he is unaware of the fact that women throughout history have used herbs both to prevent pregnancy and to promote abortion. Yes, menstruation can be uncomfortable but so can life. Perhaps the source of much of the discomfort is our insistence on continuing life as usual - pretending we don't menstruate. After reading The Red Tent by Anita Diamant I think most women wish they could partake in a monthly ritual of rest and retreat, reflection, meditation, and sharing with other women. Such a ritual surrounding menstruation would make it, I think, a time of celebration rather than agony. It's not our physiologies that need to be changed to make us better able to deal with life. Rather changing our response to our physiologies can make us realize that we are life, our bodies are life, our cycles are life. Working 9 to 5, 5 days a week with 2 weeks vacation a year is not life, it's just what we've learned to accept as normal. Whew, sounding preachy, but it's a topic of importance to me. This site was posted on another list. http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/scripts/article.asp?mador=19&datee=2/2/01&id=1 09065> This is an article about Rabbi Shira Israel Title of article: "Menstruation is not a dirty word. Period." Amazing that the topic of menstruation is being discussed now on 3 lists I belong to. Synchronicity again. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 02:10:44 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Gordon Dickson In-Reply-To: <200102030601.AAA55824@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi- I just found out that SF author Gordon R. Dickson died yesterday. I remember reading everything of his when I was young... In any case, while he was IMO an excellent SF author, he had many of the typical blindspots about gender that common among SF authors of his generation. The most fascinating incidence of this was when I was reading his novel _Timestorm_. This book was written in 1977, and Dickson attempted to include several important 3-dimensional female characters. The odd thing was that in my estimation he failed utterly in that task. The book was interesting and reasonably well-written, but the female characters were very slightly more fleshed examples of typical adventure fiction female sterotypes of the 50s and 60s. I do find it odd that a writer would attempt to avoid sexist writing and fail. Has anyone seen examples of this sort of problem in any other authors' work?. Also, has anyone here found any examples of reasonably non-sexist SF from the 50s or 60s? Blessings- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 02:23:55 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: mensturation was: Connie Willis In-Reply-To: <200102030601.AAA55824@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Julieanne wrote: > Shulamith Firestone wrote 'The Dialectic of Sex' in the 70s, I think. > The most famous quote is "Pregnancy is Barbaric!.... Childbirth > hurts!" - which is in a chapter concerned with reproduction etc - and > Firestone speculates that technology might prove beneficial to women > in removing the "tyranny of reproduction" - but its only a small part > of the whole book which looks at various areas of sexual politics. I > suspect it is out-of-print by now - but it still appears on > University/College reading lists as a standard text, so I would think > most libraries would have it. > > Juliet Mitchell's 'Sexual Politics' written around the same time is > also worthwhile - I see these theories/analyses as very early > developments in feminist theory, by the early 1980s this development > and growth of thinking had continued to expand by feminists in other > areas of femininity and biology etc: > > "Of Woman Born : Motherhood as Institution & Experience" - Adrienne > Rich " Gyn / Ecology " - Mary Daly (warning: these 2 books are, in > places, emotionally painful to read) > > "The Transsexual Empire" - Janice Raymond ( I *think* it was her:) - > which focusses on the "men with boobs" issues. _The Dialetic of Sex_ is interesting, & I'm unfamiliar with the three books listed below it. However, I've heard much comment about The _Transsexual Empire_ from my various transsexual friends (I know a number of both Female to Male and Male to Female transsexuals). I took a look at it to see if the comments were justified, and IMHO they very much were. I very much hope you are not recommending that book for serious reading, it is a vile, hurtful, and bigoted book that should rightly be shelved with neo- nazi tracts and other forms of hate literature. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 09:09:42 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: menstruation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joyce, with respect: I can't agree that I am abnormal because I haven't chosen to gestate and lactate. Nina ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:10:47 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Deborah A. Oosterhouse" Subject: Re: menstruation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A non-fiction book on the subject (partly anyway) is Natalie Angier's *Woman: An Intimate Geography*. This book received fabulous reviews when it first came out and, although I haven't read through the entire volume yet, I have found them justly deserved. While not really coming to any conclusions on anything, she does an incredible job of pulling together various perspectives and bits of information on female biology. Very interesting. Deborah ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 15:06:42 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Edmund Cooper? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kate Orman asked >I just wondered what the "feminist mafia" had to say about >Cooper's writing... :-) 'Transparently misogynistic' are the words that spring to mind, from what I recall of reading one or two of them in the 70s, plus an interview he gave to some SF magazine of the time Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:54:00 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Gordon Dickson In-Reply-To: <200102031010.FAA23987@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:10 AM 2/3/01 -0800, John Snead wrote: >Hi- > >I just found out that SF author Gordon R. Dickson died yesterday. >I remember reading everything of his when I was young... In any >case, while he was IMO an excellent SF author, he had many of >the typical blindspots about gender that common among SF >authors of his generation. The most fascinating incidence of this >was when I was reading his novel _Timestorm_. This book was >written in 1977, and Dickson attempted to include several important >3-dimensional female characters. The odd thing was that in my >estimation he failed utterly in that task. The two female characters I especially recall from _Time Storm_ are the young woman who was very disturbed, and the woman with the dogs. By definition, someone who is extremely emotionally disturbed is not typical, but I thought that the woman with the kennel, while she was slightly off the focus of the story, was prety strong and realistic. She dealt with hard situations and made hard choices. I don't know if it was ever published, but Gordy complained that there is no female equivalent to the word "hero". ("Heroine" certainly isn't!) He pointed to Pilar in _For Whom the Bell Tolls_ as an example of what he meant. Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:02:28 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: menstruation In-Reply-To: <003301c08dc4$d0cee3e0$2aaaea18@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:36 AM 2/3/01 -0800, Joyce Jones wrote: > >Yes, menstruation can be uncomfortable but so can life. Perhaps the source >of much of the discomfort is our insistence on continuing life as usual - >pretending we don't menstruate. After reading The Red Tent by Anita Diamant >I think most women wish they could partake in a monthly ritual of rest and >retreat, reflection, meditation, and sharing with other women. Such a >ritual surrounding menstruation would make it, I think, a time of >celebration rather than agony. > >Whew, sounding preachy, but it's a topic of importance to me. > Hmmm . . . I wonder how the mikvah ocunts? In Jewish law, a woman is separate while she's menstruating, and must bathe at the end of the prescribed time. A "mikvah" is a communal bath for ritual bathings. (And to head off a red herring tangent (sorry about mixing my metaphores), please dont' go off on the word "unclean" in "the Bible". "Unclean" is the word in the King James Version; the original doesn't ahve an English equivalent.) >http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/scripts/article.asp?mador=19&datee=2/2/01&id= 109065> > >This is an article about Rabbi Shira Israel >Title of article: "Menstruation is not a dirty word. Period." > Years ago (decades, actually), there was a Sunday morning talking heads show on Sex Education with a priest, a minister, and a rabbi. The priest and the minister had their turns, followed by the rabbi, who said, "I don't know what you're talking about. Our education is study of Talmud. The Talmud has six divisions, one of which is 'Women'. We've been doing this for thousands of years, and it doesn't seem to have hurt us!" Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 14:07:48 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: stories about menses: after Rest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Along with SOME OF YOUR BLOOD, the most "positive" relevant text I recall was not exclusively text, but a WIMMEN'S COMIX #13 (Supernatural Issue) story-strip entitled "Claire de Lune" by Barb Lakey, iirc. A deft fantasy. And probably harder to locate than the Sturgeon novel... TM -----Original Message----- From: Neil Rest [mailto:NeilRest@ENTERACT.COM] It will probably take you a while to find a copy, but get hold of Sturgeon's _Some of Your Blood_, a sympathetic vampire story not decades but generations ahead of its time. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 10:52:15 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: Edmund Cooper? In-Reply-To: <00c801c08df6$9a4d43c0$5283a5d5@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Date sent: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 15:06:42 -0000 Send reply to: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Edmund Cooper? To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Kate Orman asked > >I just wondered what the "feminist mafia" had to say about > >Cooper's writing... :-) Lesley: > 'Transparently misogynistic' are the words that spring to mind, > from what I recall of reading one or two of them in the 70s, plus > an interview he gave to some SF magazine of the time Oh my gods - the answer to my own question has been staring me in the face at the local book exchange for months. Cooper wrote "Who Needs Men?". Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 23:11:20 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: menstruation Nina M. Osier wrote: "Joyce, with respect: I can't agree that I am abnormal because I haven't chosen to gestate and lactate." Ah but Nina, that's not what I wrote. I wrote "since women outnumber men, I would say that not to menstruate, gestate or lactate between the years of 10 -16 to 40 or 60 is abnormal." I believe women throughout history have had means to choose whether or not to gestate and/or lactate. By choosing not to do either of the other they continue to menstruate regularly. My argument is that if more than half the population does something then it cannot be considered abnormal. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 00:00:53 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: Gordon Dickson In-Reply-To: <200102040600.AAA25118@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Neil Rest wrote: > > At 02:10 AM 2/3/01 -0800, John Snead wrote: > >Hi- > >I just found out that SF author Gordon R. Dickson died > yesterday. >I remember reading everything of his when I was young... > In any >case, while he was IMO an excellent SF author, he had many of > >the typical blindspots about gender that common among SF >authors of > his generation. The most fascinating incidence of this >was when I > was reading his novel _Timestorm_. This book was >written in 1977, > and Dickson attempted to include several important >3-dimensional > female characters. The odd thing was that in my >estimation he failed > utterly in that task. > > The two female characters I especially recall from _Time Storm_ are > the young woman who was very disturbed, and the woman with the dogs. > By definition, someone who is extremely emotionally disturbed is not > typical, but I thought that the woman with the kennel, while she was > slightly off the focus of the story, was prety strong and realistic. > She dealt with hard situations and made hard choices. The worst example I remember was the woman who was the leader of Hawaii. She seemed to supposed to be a strong (if not necessarily incredibly sympathetic) female leader, and she came across far more as a stereotypical domineering woman from a TV sitcom. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 05:12:56 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: In response to Deborah Oosterhouse: Woman: An Intimate Geography Book Review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a book review I wrote (posted at rambles.net), of the work you mentioned. thought it would interest you and the rest of the list. I loved the book too! Amy aharlib@worldnet.att.net Woman: An Intimate Geography by Natalie Angier (Anchor Books, NY, March 2000, $15.00, trade paperback, ISBN#: 0-385-49841-1). The 'geography' that Pulitzer Prize-winning science writer Angier refers to in the title of her book ranges from the southernmost clitoris and associated vulval landmarks to the high summits of the brain in her exploration of new theories of female anatomy, physiology, psychology, biology and various permutations of these topics across the life span. In gorgeous prose displaying high style and metaphor, wit and verve, Angier by turns is serious, angry, joyous,and loving; at times didactic and hortatory; at other times confessional, the result being a book brimming in information. Topics discussed in this "scientific fantasia of womanhood" include: ovulation, conception and birth; the social and physiological function of breasts; orgasm, mate selection and child-rearing behaviour; the complex workings of estrogen; hysterectomy; muscle strength and female aggression and bonding. Particularly interesting are: a chapter on love in which Angier observes that at least one hormone, oxytocin, may in part subserve the emotion; the interludes where the author speaks frankly of her own sexuality, pregnancy and childbirth; the passages about the war between mothers and daughters and about aggression as the other side of love; and the discourse on the importance of older women in early cultural/societal evolution. Angier, by analyzing current scientific theories and providing her own interpretations of gender studies and evolutionary psychology, has produced a creative, thought-provoking book unlike any other. It is replete with original material that is utterly fascinating. Her wide-ranging celebration of the female body not only engages the intellect, it also more significantly, offers a rigorous challenge to male-oriented theories of biology. This treasure trove of knowledge, beautifully conveyed, as well as of questions that have yet to be answered, deserves to be widely read by men as well as by women. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 09:08:31 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: menstruation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you for clarifying, Joyce. I have found much of this thread difficult to relate to, since menstruation recently did its level best to kill me and I'm not feeling at all warm and fuzzy about it just now. :-) So perhaps it's not surprising that I misread. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 14:19:42 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: menstruation stories MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C08EB5.8421B440" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C08EB5.8421B440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a very distant memory of Jody Scott's _Passing for Human_ and _I = Vampire_ being about a female alien/vampire nourished by menstrual = blood, but as I don't think I ever finished either of them and it was = years ago, I can't be absolutely sure. They were very much non-generic = sf/vampire fiction. Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C08EB5.8421B440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a very distant memory of Jody = Scott's=20 _Passing for Human_ and _I Vampire_ being about a female alien/vampire = nourished=20 by menstrual blood, but as I don't think I ever finished either of them = and it=20 was years ago, I can't be absolutely sure. They were very much = non-generic=20 sf/vampire fiction.
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
websit= e http://homepages.primex.= co.uk/~lesleyah
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C08EB5.8421B440-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:24:01 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Men with boobs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer wrote: <> I'm obviously not watching the right movies. From what I can see the cinema is still full of the old standards - woman as two-dimensional secondary character - woman as game prize for the successful hero - woman as neurotic mill-stone, and my own personal least favourite - woman as moronic quick-fix plot saver. To explain what I mean by the last standard female role I have a mental vision that goes something like this... ================= scene: scriptwriter's office for the next Hollywood SF blockbuster. Scriptwriter A: OK. So the monster's outside the base. How does it get in without raising the alarm? Scriptwriter B (thinks a moment): One of the characters could open the door for some fresh air, see the monster coming then run away and hide. Scriptwriter A (shakes head): The audience won't buy it. With monsters around the person would have to be totally stupid. Plus everyone in the base is armed - any normal person would let off a few shots just out of reflex. Just hiding would be pathetic. Scriptwriter B: No problem, we can make the character a woman. ================= This scenario is more common in the later stages of a film. In the earlier parts the role of moronic quick-fix plot saver is often given to the 'weedy guy', however this character type has a very limited life-expectancy and rarely makes it to the second half of a film. Jane ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:12:47 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Some of Your Blood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil wrote <> I've never read the book but about 25 years back I saw a stage-play based on it. There were just two actors and the only props were two chairs and an overhead projector. I don't know who did the adaptation, but it was utterly riveting - one of the best bits of theatre I've seen. Doubtless the play is vastly more difficult to come across than the book but I would recommend it wholeheartedly. Jane ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:19:35 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: menstruation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joyce wrote: <> Do you have any more information - which plants, where and when used, and, most importantly, percentage success rate? I must admit, from my knowledge of history, I find your claim slightly surprising. Jane ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:47:47 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: menstruation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Joyce wrote: > ><of the fact that women throughout history have used herbs both to prevent >pregnancy and to promote abortion.>> Jane: >Do you have any more information - which plants, where and when used, and, >most importantly, percentage success rate? I must admit, from my knowledge >of history, I find your claim slightly surprising. > This is argued by John Riddle in _Eve's Herbs_ - a lot of people are very convinced by this book, but as a historian of birth control (among other things) I'm not - see my review posted at http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/riddlerv.htm I would be inclined to say that women have used various herbal preparations (and other devices, of greater or lesser efficacy - amulets just don't do the job, unfortunately, but for centuries were believed in) with the _intention_ of preventing or terminating pregnancy. Let us not forget that a significant proportion of pregnancies spontaneously terminate very soon after conception. Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah -----Original Message----- From: Jane Fletcher To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: 04 February 2001 16:31 Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] menstruation >Jane > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 12:50:40 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Frances Subject: Herbal contraception MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Flora Thompson in "Lark Rise to Candleford" mentions that the women of the village had a private use for pennyroyal, but judging from the size of their families it wasn't remarkably effective. Joyce wrote: <> >Do you have any more information - which plants, where and when used, and, >most importantly, percentage success rate? I must admit, from my knowledge >of history, I find your claim slightly surprising. Jane ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 13:37:29 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From