From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:49:31 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:34 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0102B" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:06:12 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: Weaver ready for 'Alien 5' LOS ANGELES (Launch) - Sigourney Weaver will reprise her role as space-freighter-navigator-turned-alien-hunter Ellen Ripley for a new film in the Alien franchise. The U.K. paper The Sunday Express reports that the actress will executive produce the piece, which is set to be released in 2004 on the 25th anniversary of the Ridley Scott directed original film. The fifth film in the series may follow an eventually-abandoned plot from the third film, wherein the relentless, acid-bleeding xenomorphs crash land on earth. The paper claims that Weaver would receive around $21 million for her work in the film, which would mark a career best for the actress. "I've always wanted to do one where we go back to the planet where the alien originally came from, or even get to earth," the actress told the paper. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:21:10 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: BDG: CC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I read the first Charnas book when it was published, what, 20 years ago now? I was appalled. While I liked other utopias coming out about then (Gearheart, etc.), I did NOT like Walk to the Edge (End?) of the World. I found it brutal in the extreme. And even my anger was not enough to win me to this book. Imagine my surprise when I found I enjoyed Conqueror's Child. I think it was Sorrel's attitude of "That was my first mistake."I liked her. I liked her impulsivity. I liked her naiveté. And I was glad to discover that some other societies had survived, that it was not a choice between EITHER Holdfast or the riding women. ---s ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:44:34 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: menstruation Kate wrote quoting me: >>The idea that humans can be made good or effective or worthwhile or >happy >>only by rising above nature and becoming less than human is not >an >>argument that holds any appeal to me. >Are you seriously suggesting that if I choose not to have my period I become >less than human? Not less than human, but different. The systems of the human body work in an interconnected fashion. The menstrual cycle is a part of human nature. To do away with a healthy menstrual cycle takes you away from part of your human nature in order to live a life you deem more worthwhile. To me the idea is as bizarre as that of people who want to amputate their own healthy limbs because they don't feel that these limbs are a part of themselves. >>To say men can be worthwhile only if they're castrated is sexist, is >>inhumane and is insulting. >Or equating turning off one's period with castration (for any gender)? Turning off one's period is a form of temporary (or permanent) castration. The reproductive hormones are disrupted. What else could it be? I'm not trying to be insulting here. I'm just amazed at the idea that one would intentionally disrupt health. Before doing so I would have to have a mighty good guarantee that what I was after would be worth any consequences that would arise from such disruption and would not be obtainable in any other way. Thank you, the concept of eco feminism finally makes sense to me. I see this intentional disruption of human health to be on the same scale as genetically engineering foods, the slashing and burning of forests, cutting down thousand year old trees to make plywood, hunting animals to extinction so you can make temporary use of their bodies. Hot damn, I'm an eco feminist and didn't know it. Is this conversation starting to become boring? Do you think the list would prefer we stop? Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 03:13:48 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: menstruation In-Reply-To: <200102080600.AAA20430@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Joyce Jones wrote: > Maire Shanahan wrote: > > "I find any suggestion that equality for women can be gained by > getting rid of our reproductive characteristic pretty insulting to > women." > > I didn't realize I was an eco-feminist loony for thinking the same > way. The idea that humans can be made good or effective or worthwhile > or happy only by rising above nature and becoming less than human is > not an argument that holds any appeal to me. Interesting perspective. I see voluntary changes we make for our comfort, health, happiness, and effectiveness as becoming more than human (then again, I'm an ardent transhumanist). The idea of living in any sort of natural human state horrifies me. W/o modern technology many of use would be dead from various horrid diseases, nearly blind from near or farsightedness, toothless from dental problems or simple wear and generally far less healthy and happy. A century ago our average life-span in the US was around 50. Now it's over 1.5 x that. With luck, we can continue to improve on the various other wretched features that evolution saddled us with. Fully voluntary control of menstruation seems only one of many exceedingly sensible changes we can make in our biology. No one is saying (including Connie Willis in her story) that women shouldn't, merely that having it be completely optional is far better. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:16:10 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: menstruation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IMHO, don't think anyone was arguing, just giving opinions and extrapolating etc. About whether Willis was saying equality would come form chucking menstruation, I didn't think that was what she as saying either. There is a body o opinion that says that women's bodies (weaker, the child-bearers etc) have resulted in their subordination by men. I thought that was maybe what Willis was thinking of, but just poking a little fun at both sides. One the one side, the idea that changing women's bodies will lead to equality, suggesting we need changing to be capable of equality is insulting. On the other hand, rejecting a technology that would get rid of menstruation on those grounds is a bit like cutting of your nose to spite your face. If a safe and easy technology with no side effects existed to remove menstruation , would you say no to make the point that women's bodies don't need changing, or would you gratefully say au revoir tampax? Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:24:21 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: re human batteries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit can't defend silly plot elements like the artificial intelligences, who use "a form of fusion", also relying on the body heat of humans for their electricity. That is ridiculous, no two ways about it. I though it was more that the humans were used as batteries because of the electric impulses ie nerves, chemical reactions etc that go on Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:49:52 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: menstruation In-Reply-To: <005b01c091a2$fb1a2ce0$2aaaea18@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:44 PM 7/02/01 -0800, Joyce wrote: >Thank you, the concept of eco feminism finally makes sense to me. I see >this intentional disruption of human health to be on the same scale as >genetically engineering foods, the slashing and burning of forests, cutting >down thousand year old trees to make plywood, hunting animals to extinction >so you can make temporary use of their bodies. Hot damn, I'm an eco >feminist and didn't know it. LOL Joyce:) There are several strands of feminism at that end of the spectrum. I tend to see the eco-feminists as more closely aligned with environmentalism than feminism but they are pro-animal rights, anti- logging, save-the-whales etc seeing a 'connection' between violence against the environment, or 'Nature' - as analagous to social violence against women. Descendants of hippies perhaps? Those at the other end of the spectrum tend to lump eco-feminists in with other terms like 'cultural' feminist, and 'victim' feminist etc - Most are sneering put-downs for radical feminism, which is somewhat broader in its socio-political analysis and theory than most people are aware - for some unknown reason rad-feminists are constantly attacked for being biological determinists, but Rad-fem theory is based on social construction of gender, not biology, but they don't agree with the Culture vs Nature paradigm, or Mind/Body 'split' of Western philosphical thought. At its most simplistic - the Western patriarchal or masculine-dominant way of thinking for the last 5-10,000 years is: Male = Culture, Intellect, Mind-over-Matter, the realm of Ideas, Control & 'Power-Over', rationalism, the 'public world' and freedom from necessity etc Female = Nature, Matter, Non-volition or Non-Control, or "Power-To" rather than "power-Over"; the realm of the 'private world' of biological necessity & sustenance of biological life. The history of human philosophies as dominated by patriarchal thinking is to escape the body, escape Nature, by particularly controlling/exploiting Nature, have power over it, both in spiritual/philosophical/political ideas through 'Enlightenment', or in physical reality, by beating it or moulding Woman/Nature into submission. Some say it began long before Plato, when Man first gained a consciousness of his place in the world, and found himself feeling quite powerless, paranoid, & frightened and small against Mother Nature who descended with storms, earthquakes and bad seasons, without rhyme or reason - so he set out to conquer it, and "bring it under his own control" - make it do what he wanted, when he wanted and how he wanted. Reminds me of the scene in one of Douglas Addams books in the series 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'. The people on the planet Krikket were surrounded by some cloud of debris and so never saw stars. When they invented space-travel and first arose above the cloud and saw the stars - they said "Well..its just not on, its gotta go!" and accordingly raced around the galaxy blowing up star-systems:) This process can be traced in myths and legends, particularly religious myth. The earliest creation myths had female creatrixes, but by the time of early Mesopotamian cultures, as well the Indus valley and Chinese, most of the myths had started to change to that of a male Godlet, or Hero character creating the world by murdering, usually through dismemberment, of the earlier female creatrix - eg. the Babylonian myth of Marduk who murdered Tiamat by cutting her in two to make the Earth & Sky - womb below, breasts above. As centuries went by, this drive to conquer & control nature, (and wherever possible do away with it altogether for 'freedom's' sake) - led to the sort of Judaeo/Christian mythology of Virgin births etc tho' in Christianity the femaleness is still there in 'ghost' form, its often called 'Mother Church' as spirit, anima - female spirit is OK, just not the female body, or the women who inhabit them in the real world:) - this drive to conquer Nature led as well as asceticism, & sado-masochism which is also found honoured in many Eastern philosophies - the driving out of bodily desires or "necessities" through pain,- lying on beds of nails, self-mutilation for 'sins of the flesh' etc - the drive to reach spiritual perfection & nirvana at the expense of the body, or the other extreme of total libertarianism and hedonistic selfishness of indulging desire which is still 'unnatural' and considered 'higher culture' or 'transcendental' by having conquered Nature. Another part of this "denial of Nature" theme, was the removal of Mother-right by rituals of 'rebirth' of boys as men - nearly all such rituals have a common element of being 'reborn' as 'true sons' of the father. They usually have some physical ritual of pain, cutting of the genitals in circumcision etc to mimic childbirth - or 'rebirth' as separation from the mother. Its interesting that the story of Abraham instituting circumcision on 8-day old babies is such an important one to Judaeo tradition - possibly describes a major culture change from puberty rites to establishment of an earlier symbolic 'separation' & 'rebirth' ritual. The radical feminist historical analysis, is similar to Marx's 'class' analyis of history, as its also based on socio-cultural relationships, although not between socio-economic 'classes' etc, but between social male and female 'classes' - particularly in thought, cultural paradigms and social practices. This paradigm of male= 'higher culture' and female= 'animal nature' is also parallelled in rad-fem analysis of racism - in that coloured peoples have traditionally been seen as 'animalistic' needing 'domestication, exploitation & control' similar to herd animals. But it also has led to the domination of Culture over Nature through technological intervention, and social movements like libertarianism, the cult of the individual etc. and increasing centralisation of the ethic of 'power-over' controlling increasingly larger numbers of people. In rad-fem analysis, the entire history of mankind is a progression of increasingly powerful heirarchical controls over increasingly larger numbers of people - leading logically to a totalitarian state of conformism, where most people are conditioned socially through popular culture into accepting it as 'paradise', unaware and unconscious that they are controlled by the aeons old reward-punishment responses. Those at the bottom of the heirarchy, will be doing the 'necessary' shit-work, and that is mostly women & non-white people, preparing food, feeding children, mopping up messes etc. Its interesting to me, that global spending on reproductive technology is 2nd only to defence spending, and has been increasing, where defence spending is levelling off, particularly in Western nations. Man has wanted to control reproduction since time began, first by socially controlling women through cultures, laws, tradition etc, severe punishment & reward, controlling their sexuality and fertility socially and technologically, and particularly through experimentation - and technological reproduction is a logical extension of the mind-set that seeks to remove human associations with 'Nature'. This process is on-going and slow, & may take centuries where history is constantly forgotten and "erased" from culture & education anyway - but it is speeding up. This sort of Culture or ethic, relegates women and other peoples to the level of machine, as in surrogate mothers, and when technology finally evolves beyond needing human bodies to be 'surrogate machines' for production, or the shit-work of biological 'necessity' or reproduction, what happens to them? Kill em off I suppose - Some rad-fems postulate that by logical extension, women can be removed altogether, perhaps some reconstucted 'ideal' models can be kept for leisure & entertainment, like Pris in Blade Runner. Natural-born ones are too dirty, hairy and sweaty - too much like 'Nature' to be allowed to 'contaminate' the 'purity' of pseudo-libertarian but highly conformist 'Culture'. Cyber-feminism, along with post-feminism, 'do-me' feminism and whatever 3rd-wave feminism is defined as this week, have arisen out of this tradition of Western thought which can be traced all the way back to at least Plato, but is now known as post-modernist/post-structuralism which puts Mind-over-Matter, or Culture-over-Nature and technology as the spiritual/intellectual Holy Cross of Enlightenment, the Panacea for all the world's ills, the Hammer or Sword which will finally Conquer this abominable, unpredictable wild thang called "Nature". Marduk will have finally killed Tiamat, and nobody will even give the poor bitch a human funeral:) Which is just another form of 'escape from the body' or 'freedom from Nature' mind-set - we can get rid of sexual politics, and probably all other forms of socio-political friction, by becoming a sexless soup-blend of androgynous cyborgs I guess, it might work...*shrug*..I probably won't be around to see the final result anyway, for which I am grateful:) My main bug-bear with it, is it doesn't address inequities, or 'challenge' inequality in society, and is very much a Western elitist philosophy - it totally ignores that to get from *here* to *there* of such a utopia, we have to maim, kill and/or keep huge numbers of people in mechanised slavery and servitude for generations, and more than half of those are women. To my mind, any feminism (or humanism) which doesnt address or challenge, such social inequalities, or is comfortable with building their 'options' and 'choices' upon the bodies, blood, sweat, pain and tears of millions of other people, isn't feminism at all. Julieanne ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:34:34 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Ecofeminism: Julieanne et alles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Then there's (again) the Social-Ecology school of Ecofeminism, which includes Janet Biehl among others, who see human action in a stewardship role as necessary for successful integration of a liberating society into a relatively balanced ecosystem. Drawn heavily from anarchafeminism, a tradition too often ignored in favor of Marxist analysis. -----Original Message----- From: Julieanne [mailto:jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU] Those at the other end of the spectrum tend to lump eco-feminists in with other terms like 'cultural' feminist, and 'victim' feminist etc - Most are sneering put-downs for radical feminism, which is somewhat broader in its socio-political analysis and theory than most people are aware - for some unknown reason rad-feminists are constantly attacked for being biological determinists, but Rad-fem theory is based on social construction of gender, not biology, but they don't agree with the Culture vs Nature paradigm, or Mind/Body 'split' of Western philosphical thought. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:47:52 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: re human batteries: Shanahan after Dawley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" No matter how one slices it, it's a goofy metaphor for regimentation/soul-destruction/massmindedness (and if Sandy again wants to use stronger language, I won't argue!)...at least on the surface level. It's so goofy at that level that it damages its value at any other levels. A la "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus." (And my understanding of the rationale is similar to yours, Maire, but I can see how the doubletalk could be interpreted as Janice does.) TM -----Original Message----- From: Maire Shanahan [mailto:MaireShanahan@AOL.COM] Janice: can't defend silly plot elements like the artificial intelligences, who use "a form of fusion", also relying on the body heat of humans for their electricity. That is ridiculous, no two ways about it. I though it was more that the humans were used as batteries because of the electric impulses ie nerves, chemical reactions etc that go on ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:53:13 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Todd Mason Subject: Weaver ready for 'Alien 5': Widely-circulated hoax, apparently MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This has become a very widely-circulated hoax story, apparently originating in the London tabloid cited below and dutifully spread by such corporate partners as Fox News. TM -----Original Message----- From: Joyce Jones [mailto:hoop5@LVCM.COM] LOS ANGELES (Launch) - Sigourney Weaver will reprise her role as space-freighter-navigator-turned-alien-hunter Ellen Ripley for a new film in the Alien franchise. The U.K. paper The Sunday Express reports that the actress will executive produce the piece, which is set to be released in 2004 on the 25th anniversary of the Ridley Scott directed original film. The fifth film in the series may follow an eventually-abandoned plot from the third film, wherein the relentless, acid-bleeding xenomorphs crash land on earth. The paper claims that Weaver would receive around $21 million for her work in the film, which would mark a career best for the actress. "I've always wanted to do one where we go back to the planet where the alien originally came from, or even get to earth," the actress told the paper. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:42:15 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Frances Subject: Re: "Death of the Author" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Thanks for those who clarified, although I still think an event with a >deceased author would be kinda kewl. >Maryelizabeth "Meet the ghost writer"? I haven't posted for a few days because I've been experiencing my own odd "ghost": a copy of my message being sent to some unknown recipient. Bad enough when that copy is just bounced back as "not found", but the last few reached an active email address and I felt guilty of inadvertant rudeness. I'm sticking a cautious toe back in the water just to see... Frances ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:54:37 -0500 Reply-To: scolling@uwo.ca Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Collingwood Subject: Re: Ecofeminism: Julieanne et alles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit for some > unknown reason rad-feminists are constantly attacked for being biological > determinists, but Rad-fem theory is based on social construction of gender, > not biology, but they don't agree with the Culture vs Nature paradigm, or > Mind/Body 'split' of Western philosphical thought. > The problem is that most people tend to lump radical feminists all together. Radical feminism gets its name from its desire for an entirely new way of doing things, a new system (whereas liberal feminism thinks we can patch up the system we have) There are actually two strains of thought in rad/feminism, one which leans toward androgyny, and the other, which leans toward a new valuation of what is "feminine." The androgynists, sometimes called radical libertarian feminists, want a society in which all are equal, and this means we get rid of the nuclear family, we accept all forms of sexuality and sexual orientations, we rid ourselves of gender roles - even, for some, to the point of using technology to free women from reproductive labour. The question that arises, of course, is - do we want to disappear ourselves? Is there nothing of value in the traditional concept "woman?" The other strain in radical feminism is often called radical cultural feminism. It is expressed in many different ways, but the most common one calls for giving a woman-centred valuation of what is "feminine" This is where you will hear the arguments about women being nurturing and caring, and how "feminine" values must be integrated into our world view. (you can see the link to ecofeminism here - there is a definite crossover) The idea of the Goddess is also important to many radical cultural feminists. Of course, the most well-known aspect of rad/cultural feminism is its belief that heterosexuality is dangerous for women - because it is based in the male power structure that runs everything. Many radical cultural feminists believe that all forms of sexuality are healthy, EXCEPT heterosexuality. Radical cultural feminists leave themselves open to a charge of essentialism (that dreaded word). If we start defining ourselves according to our "womanliness," how long will it take before the men herd us back to the kitchen and the nursery? All this is an oversimplification, of course, but I really find both strains of radical feminism really interesting, and I have to admit i have more sympathy for the rad/cultural feminists, Goddess and all. Sharon ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:58:46 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: menstruation In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:44:34 PST." <005b01c091a2$fb1a2ce0$2aaaea18@lvcm.com> Joyce Jones wrote: >Thank you, the concept of eco feminism finally makes sense to me. I >see this intentional disruption of human health to be on the same scale >as genetically engineering foods, the slashing and burning of forests, >cutting down thousand year old trees to make plywood, hunting animals >to extinction so you can make temporary use of their bodies. Hot damn, >I'm an eco feminist and didn't know it. I just have to say, I don't at all believe that genetically engineered foods fit into that list. What do you think people have been doing for millenia when they bred the stronger plants and animals together? With, yes, sometimes disastrous results, as when diseases wipe out one type of corn and there's insufficient diversity to recover or resist. But even people who're worried about those results are doing their damndest to breed specific other strains of "antique" trees and fruits and so on. That's genetic engineering too. Now, I do understand why the term "genetic engineering" strikes fear into the hearts of reasonable people; I wholly agree that no sane person would put her trust into the benevolent motives of major chemical companies. I'm not even arguing that because we're doing it now it must be all right. I just feel that it's important to note that this is not new. It's important not to have a knee-jerk reaction. You may say, but why not? If we don't know what's going to happen, why not clamp down as hard as we can until we find out what's up? First, there are real ecological benefits from some of these modifications. For instance, if you can produce a plant that's resistant to certain kinds of pests, you don't have to spray pesticides as widely. Second, it's my understanding that the opposition to this research has mostly had the effect of preventing research in universities and government groups that might possibly be neutral, and left the chemical companies to do all the work. And I think we can all agree that that would suck. Jessie ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:27:32 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: menstruation In-Reply-To: <200102081113.GAA20057@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >I see voluntary changes we make for our >comfort, health, happiness, and effectiveness as becoming more >than human (then again, I'm an ardent transhumanist). The idea of >living in any sort of natural human state horrifies me. W/o modern >technology many of use would be dead from various horrid >diseases, nearly blind from near or farsightedness, toothless from >dental problems or simple wear and generally far less healthy and >happy. Hear hear! I am intensely short-sighted and getting more so every year; I suffered from major bladder problems and ear infections as a child, as well as an allergy to bacteria my own system produced and have suffered from colitis as an adult.....so I have NO desire to live in the "natural" state some yearn for. I'd be dead. On the other hand, I can also see the damage caused by the proliferation of the human species (over 6 billion now isn't it) and the growing technologies in industrialized nations (where we such up far more than our "natural share" of the natural resources of the planet). Nothing is purely "good" or "evil" in regard to this situation. R ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 07:39:47 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Weaver ready for 'Alien 5': Widely-circulated hoax, apparently In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:53 AM 8/02/01 -0600, you wrote: >This has become a very widely-circulated hoax story, apparently originating >in the London tabloid cited below and dutifully spread by such corporate >partners as Fox News. TM Thanks - I would hope so, last time I watched all four in a row, and it was strange to see Weaver visibly ageing, in the last one, she looked ready to keel over! ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:03:47 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: menstruation In-Reply-To: <75.ffe5bfd.27b3d9fa@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maire: > About whether Willis was saying equality would come form chucking > menstruation, I didn't think that was what she as saying either. > There is a body o opinion that says that women's bodies (weaker, > the child-bearers etc) have resulted in their subordination by men. > I thought that was maybe what Willis was thinking of, but just > poking a little fun at both sides. One the one side, the idea that > changing women's bodies will lead to equality, suggesting we need > changing to be capable of equality is insulting. On the other hand, > rejecting a technology that would get rid of menstruation on those > grounds is a bit like cutting of your nose to spite your face. If > a safe and easy technology with no side effects existed to remove > menstruation , would you say no to make the point that women's > bodies don't need changing, or would you gratefully say au revoir > tampax? This is interesting - more than a few postings have centred around the question of whether periods are a good or bad thing, and whether or not ammenorol would be a good or bad thing. I think that misses the point. I'm suspicious of any suggestion that menstruation makes women irrational and inferior; I think honouring menarche and menopause would do women's self-esteem a ton of good; but that doesn't stop me using Naprogesic (the period pain tablets sent by the Goddess :-) or the Pill. Periods are just a fact of life. For a long time they've been treated as frightening, embarrassing, revolting, and seriously debilitating to women's bodies and minds. There are women who have dreadful periods needing medical attention, but for most of us, it's just not that big a deal, "Even the Queen" notwithstanding. If we have them, whatever. If we get rid of them, whatever. (We can even get rid of them now if we want.) Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:22:54 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: menstruation In-Reply-To: <75.ffe5bfd.27b3d9fa@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:16 AM 2/8/01 -0500, you wrote: >or would you gratefully say au revoir tampax? >Maire I've already said that and it's made my life much better. I still have moon times, but they aren't nearly as unpleasant or as long now that I don't use those cotton plugs. Maybe if more women chose to use more natural, less chemically laden "period catchers" they wouldn't feel so miserable about getting periods. Plus they wouldn't be polluting the planet nearly as much. Jennifer- I guess I'm an eco-feminist too, but in a slightly different way ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:21:48 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: menstruation In-Reply-To: <75.ffe5bfd.27b3d9fa@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:16 AM 2/8/01 EST, Maire Shanahan wrote: >Willis was thinking of, but just poking a little fun at both sides. One the ^^^^^^ ^^^ HOORAY! *Someone* got it! Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:45:24 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: menstruation In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010208192148.00994d50@pop.enteract.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Neil: > HOORAY! *Someone* got it! I think we're allowed to be serious about even a humorously intended story. :-) After all, "Even the Queen" has raised some fascinating issues here, and I've enjoyed the discussion greatly - a discussion we couldn't have had if we just said, "Oh, it's just a joke, lighten up." :-) Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:06:07 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: BDG: Conqueror's Child Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed There is so much worth discussing in this book that it's hard to know where to start. Charnas took on a lot: the Fems not only had the task of reinventing society from the ground up, they faced serious divisions in their own ranks while doing it. But I think she rose to the challenge admirably. The interplay of the various groups was fascinating -- the Free Fems, the New Free, the Riding Women, the enslaved men, the Pool Towns survivors, the Bayo-born, the Ferrymen and all the gradations between incorrigibly angry, vengeful people (like Kobba) and forgiving, forward-looking people (like Beyarra) combined in unpredictable ways on the road to a state of reasonable stability at the end. The most notable new theme introduced in the book was that of the parent/child bond. Given the old Holdfast taboo against knowing who one's parents or children were, the Fems' only model of family was the Riding Women. But new Holdfast children are too precious to run loose in a childpack. I thought their solution of a central children's house made sense. But I did think it a little weird how contemporary notions such as the innocence of childhood were so quickly adopted by Sorrel and others. I completely agreed with her about the unfairness (and counterproductivity) of male children being raised as slaves, but it struck me as very odd for a Riding Woman to be protesting about "innocence". Did anyone else feel that way? Apart from the actual children, though, the theme of the parent/child bond was embodied primarily by Sorrel herself. Petra commented that Sorrel's relationship with Alldera is very unusual. I can think of only one other example, offhand -- Merwen and Lystra in *A Door Into Ocean* -- so I definitely agree. I can understand that Alldera, the Conqueror of the Holdfast, would be a very hard example to live up to, and that her apparent neglect of Sorrel could be very hurtful. All the same, I felt at times like shaking Sorrel and saying, "Get over it, girl!" Charnas' characterization of a hot-headed teen was certainly convincing. Overall, I found Sorrel's relationship with Eykar to be more nuanced, perhaps because she met him for the first time in the course of the novel and we got to see her perception of him change over time. There was never any proof of which man, Servan or Eykar, is Sorrel's father, but by the end of the book Sorrel was calling Eykar by that name. I found that very moving; it was an earned title, not a simple biological fact. What torment Eykar endured in this book! The scene in which he was locked in a room and ignored, despite his desperate questions about Setteo's whereabouts, was one of the saddest in the book for me. As was his attempted suicide near the end. Throughout *The Furies* and most of *The Conqueror's Child*, he was caught in an extremely stressful nexus position, associated with Alldera and hated by some Fems because of it, known by his reputation as the Oracle among the men and alternately courted and tormented on that account. By the time Servan approached the Holdfast and Setteo was killed, he was at the breaking point. Though I have always loved his character, at times in the previous books I thought he might be too intelligent, too scrupulous and fair, to be true. Perhaps his "fall" in *Conqueror's Child* was Charnas' proof that he was, after all, just human like anyone else? Servan, on the other hand, came across as much more monstrous in this book than in *Walk to the End of the World*. Charnas commented in our previous discussion of *The Slave and the Free* that "...a lot of his manipulative cleverness revolves around getting himself out of dangerous situations that he has blithely waltzed into on impulse. I sometimes think of him as the Trickster of some Indian cultures (US) -- Coyote, Raven, others. Part of his story is about the negative pole of that kind of behavior/character, particularly when you are not a kid any more (in CHILD) -- it gets to be a lot less appealing and a lot more destructive to others." It always seemed to me that Servan wasn't naturally inclined to the role of leader. He had smarts and ambition, but of a kind more suited to dancing around the margins rather than operating in full view. It surprised me that he was able to hold his band of desperados together even as long as he did; by the time he arrived in the Holdfast, he was clearly running on empty. His death was almost an anticlimax. I never imagined that Daya would be the one to engineer his death. In fact, I'm still not sure what she intended. What a fascinating character! I felt that Charnas avoided ever nailing down her "essence" for the audience. So many of the things she did seemed evil and twisted, but she kept surprising me up to the end. Did she really believe in Moonwoman? Or was her holiness just an act? She seemed fully capable of deceiving even herself about it. In a way, a storytelling pet fem was the perfect foil for Servan -- her past as a slave had honed her skills beyond the reach of his considerable talents. But I was a bit disappointed with the way it played out. It's unrealistic to expect dramatic speeches, obviously, but I was hoping for more of a confrontation between them. Instead she was shot and easily thrown aside. Her death was another of the saddest parts of the book for me. With all the terrible history between her and Alldera, I was very moved by this passage: "Alldera said quietly, 'Nobody but Daya is responsible for Daya's dying. It's what she set out to accomplish. It's how she's decided to end her own story.' Sorrel gazed at the pet fem's moist, scarred face with fascination now. 'Has she said that?' 'To Beyarra. She hasn't said a word to me. I don't think she will. I think she is done with words.' She wanted suddenly to cry and wished that Sorrel would leave her alone to do so privately." In so few words, Charnas sketches the complicated relationship of these two people who have loved and hated one another so intensely over the course of the books and who are approaching the moment of final parting. The Epilog of the book, though shot through with the light of a promising future, gives me a sense of loss every time I read it. The disappearance of the Riding Women is depressing. In the Potlatch program notes, someone named Debbie exclaimed, "They're the Elves!" She was right on. The feeling of an age ending was, to me, very similar to the feeling I got at the end of *The Lord of the Rings*. It's very effective -- every few sentences an upwelling of emotion nearly makes me cry -- but I'm not sure the shift in tone is really appropriate. Maybe Charnas is saying, "Hey, you are your own Women now, so the Riding Women must go and leave you to your own devices." But it gives me the feeling that they are retroactively being defined as Symbols instead of a real society. And the fact that Alldera left with them goes as least part of the way toward making her into a god, as Eykar ironically predicted before their parting. What do other people think? There is still much more to say about this book. I haven't even touched on the new societies that were revealed or the questions of history and literacy that cropped up, both very interesting topics. This book fully deserved the Tiptree Award. p.s. Sadly, it could have won an award for hideous cover art as well! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT Feminist SF Posting Archive at: http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/femsf-index.htm Listening to: Badly Drawn Boy -- The Hour of Bewilderbeast "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:00:12 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: au revoir tampax, on the topic of ecofeminism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On a different note, recently ) in Aus, anyway) , a company has come out selling all-cotton tampons, claiming they are less irritating and better for the environment. As the cotton industry uses more pesticides and chemicals then any other crop, and the cotton- growing area in NSW, Aus is plagued by health probs ie breathing difficulties, asthma, birth problems- I find their approach somewhat ironic. Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:35:20 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: menstruation In-Reply-To: <200102090601.AAA24302@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Julieanne > Those at the other end of the spectrum tend to lump eco-feminists in > with other terms like 'cultural' feminist, and 'victim' feminist etc - > Most are sneering put-downs for radical feminism, which is somewhat > broader in its socio-political analysis and theory than most people > are aware - for some unknown reason rad-feminists are constantly > attacked for being biological determinists, but Rad-fem theory is > based on social construction of gender, not biology, but they don't > agree with the Culture vs Nature paradigm, or Mind/Body 'split' of > Western philosphical thought. Disagreeing with almost all of it, the only radical feminist writer I'm particularly familiar with is Andrea Dworkin. While she openly states she believe that gender is a social construction, this is hardly apparent from her writing. She very much seems to argue that gender is innate. It would take me a while to dig out specific passages, but I can if you are interested. > This process can be traced in myths and legends, particularly > religious myth. The earliest creation myths had female > creatrixes, but by the time of early Mesopotamian cultures, as > well the Indus valley and Chinese, most of the myths had started > to change to that of a male Godlet, or Hero character > creating the world by murdering, usually through > dismemberment, of the earlier female creatrix - eg. the > Babylonian myth of Marduk who murdered Tiamat by cutting her >in two to make the Earth & Sky - womb below, breasts above. I've read such analyses and am far from convinced. Universal approaches to myth are in my opinion inherantly flawed. Such approaches didn't work for Margaret Murray and her alleged (and completely disproven) European Witch cult. These arguments seem to merely be descendants of that same sort of dubious scholarship. Anyone can make a whole serious of myths picked from various cultures tell whatever story they want. Joseph Campbell did an excellent job of this with his Hero myth. However, that doesn't mean any of these analyses are in any way accurate or reflect anything about what the people who composed the myths actually believed. Playing with myths like that is merely a process of creating new myths out of old ones. A useful task, people today also need myths. However, getting myths confused with historical scholarship is highly problematic. > Its interesting to me, that global spending on reproductive > technology is 2nd only to defence spending, and has been > increasing, where defence spending is levelling off, particularly in > Western nations. Man has wanted to control reproduction since > time began, first by socially controlling women through cultures, > laws, tradition etc, severe punishment & reward, controlling their > sexuality and fertility socially and technologically, and > particularly through experimentation - and technological > reproduction is a logical extension of the mind-set that seeks to > remove human associations with 'Nature'. This process is on- > going and slow, & may take centuries where history is > constantly forgotten and "erased" from culture & education > anyway - but it is speeding up. OK, now I'm confused. Are you saying that allowing people to control their own reproduction is a bad thing, or even a male driven idea? Sanger and other early feminists fought long and hard to make contraception available in the US, they fought against conservative males strongly opposed to the whole concept. Similar battles have been fought in other nations. I see spending on reproductive technologies being 2nd only to defense spending as a wonderful thing (although it would be much better IMHO if defense spending was *far* lower worldwide). People, mostly women, are taking control of their own bodies. As for technological reproduction (presumably you are meaning things like in vitro fertilization and the possibility of artificial wombs). If women want to have children and they can't because of medical problems, such technologies allow them to do so. Heck, if a women wanted a child and didn't want the pain and medical risk of carrying it, an artificial womb would be a perfect solution. I see no problems here. Modern reproductive technologies allow having children to be a choice. We've seen what not having that choice means, and it is bad. The consequences of not having modern reproductive technologies would still be bad even in a totally egalitarian society. If every time a woman has sex with a man there is a risk of pregnancy the woman has a choice of having a full life and remaining celibate or having lots of children and being able to do little else. This is far more of a risk today than in the past, since poor nutrition lowers fertility. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:35:20 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: Ecofeminism: Julieanne et alles In-Reply-To: <200102090601.AAA24302@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sharon Collingwood wrote: > The problem is that most people tend to lump radical feminists all > together. Radical feminism gets its name from its desire for an > entirely new way of doing things, a new system (whereas liberal > feminism thinks we can patch up the system we have) There are actually > two strains of thought in rad/feminism, one which leans toward > androgyny, and the other, which leans toward a new valuation of what > is "feminine." > > The androgynists, sometimes called radical libertarian feminists, want > a society in which all are equal, and this means we get rid of the > nuclear family, we accept all forms of sexuality and sexual > orientations, we rid ourselves of gender roles - even, for some, to > the point of using technology to free women from reproductive labour. > The question that arises, of course, is - do we want to disappear > ourselves? Is there nothing of value in the traditional concept > "woman?" Ah, so *that's* what it's called. Thanks! I've run into references to this type of thought and would love to read more about it. Can you recommend any good books. I'd *love* to hear other's thoughts on these topics. Hmm, I guess I'm a radical feminist after all :) For my own point of view on whether there is anything of value in the traditional concept of "woman", I'd say largely no, and neither is there anything of value in the traditional concept of "man" (in both cases speaking of the First World concepts). Both are severely limited and are ragged halves of a greater and more interesting whole. Getting beyond the whole active/passive nurturing/doing mother/father model seems essential to have any chance of building a free and egalitarian society. In any case, the above description of an androgynous, gender role free, sexual preference free society sounds like a real utopia to me, sign me up. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 07:44:08 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Heather Stark Subject: Re: menstruation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was just caught by a sparkle from two points of view flashing by one after another (kind of like an animated flip book): Julieanne wrote on Thurs Feb 8: >The history of human philosophies as dominated by patriarchal thinking is >to escape the body, escape Nature, by particularly controlling/exploiting >Nature.... > >Some say it began long before Plato, when Man first gained a consciousness >of his place in the world, and found himself feeling quite powerless, >paranoid, & frightened and small against Mother Nature who descended with >storms, earthquakes and bad seasons, without rhyme or reason - so he set >out to conquer it, and "bring it under his own control" - make it do what >he wanted, when he wanted and how he wanted. And Maire Shanahan wrote, earlier that day: If a safe and easy technology with no side effects existed to remove menstruation, would you say no to make the point that women's bodies don't need changing, or would you gratefully say au revoir tampax? What struck me about reading these two points of view one after another was the potential for seeing the relationship between them in a new way - as in: * the desire to conquer and control Mother Nature is associated, in many interpretations, with patriarchal world-views (as per Julieann's eloquent exposition) BUT * it can clearly also be a desire of the *female* of the species (as per 'yes!' answers to Maire's question) The 'Mother Nature who descended with storms, earthquakes and bad seasons, without rhyme or reason ' is very like *me*, sometimes. And why should not this be frightening, or in need of being controlled *by oneself*, if one is female, and awakening to find oneself alone and conscious in the universe, and *also* part of that which is frightening? (Ontogeny repeats phylogeny, with a twist from psychology and physiology. And a slice of lemon.) Maire's phrasing was more along the 'convenience' line (yipee, no more tampons), rather than the weather control theme (yipee, no more primordial hormonal roller coaster at the same time as one awakens and finds oneself to be a mote in the universe). But, still, you can take bits of the framework of the 'classic' explanation for the origin of patriarchal-thinking, and use it to look at women's attitudes to self. If you want to. cheers, Heather p.s. if this makes no sense it *may* be because I haven't had my 2nd cup of coffee yet... ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:41:31 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rowena Subject: Re: menstruation In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208161844.00b13510@mail.superior.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 8 Feb 2001, at 16:22, Jennifer R. J. wrote: > I still have > moon times, but they aren't nearly as unpleasant or as long now that I > don't use those cotton plugs. Maybe if more women chose to use more > natural, less chemically laden "period catchers" they wouldn't feel so > miserable about getting periods. Hi Jennifer, do you mind telling me what you use as 'period catcher'? I would like an alternative for tampax and co. thanks, Rowena ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 04:01:54 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: menstruation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to but in- but I have greenie friends who go the sea-sponge way. Use as per tampons, clean out for reuse (no waste etc) Also, they can be left in during sex. Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:23:59 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010208184140.00a9d2a0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:06 PM 8/02/01 -0500, you wrote: >There is so much worth discussing in this book that it's hard to know where >to start. Charnas took on a lot: the Fems not only had the task of >reinventing society from the ground up, they faced serious divisions in >their own ranks while doing it. But I think she rose to the challenge >admirably. I will second that! It would have been too easy to just have it all fall neatly into place, initially I was worried that Charnas would build in a romance between Alldera and Eykar, and was so glad that she didn't, and I think Charnas did well to show the confusion of the fems once they had won their battle..like they were saying "OK, we've won - now what do we do?" They had so few models of a workable society to work from - only the free fems, who were few anyway, had had 15 years of living with the Riding Women, and it soon became apparent that that model wouldn't work. So they had to play it by ear, and work from scratch so to speak - especially with what to do with the children. I particularly liked the interplay of a variety of characters and cultures - and I was often reminded of clashes amongst feminist collectives, in particular with the differences between the Free fems and the New fems. The latter had had it easier than the Free Fems, most had been born after the battle in which Alldera escaped at the end of the first book, and some of them couldn't understand why the Free fems were so 'hard-hearted'. >The most notable new theme introduced in the book was that of the >parent/child bond. Given the old Holdfast taboo against knowing who one's >parents or children were, the Fems' only model of family was the Riding >Women. But new Holdfast children are too precious to run loose in a >childpack. I thought their solution of a central children's house made >sense. But I did think it a little weird how contemporary notions such as >the innocence of childhood were so quickly adopted by Sorrel and others. I >completely agreed with her about the unfairness (and counterproductivity) >of male children being raised as slaves, but it struck me as very odd for a >Riding Woman to be protesting about "innocence". Did anyone else feel that way? I thought it very much in character for a young woman like Sorrel - she felt betrayed by her birth mother, as well as her other share-mothers and cohorts in the Riding Women clans. She was talking more about herself I think - protesting her own 'innocence' in having been raised with the Riding Women. She didn't know which world she belonged to. In Motherlines, I often felt angry at the Riding Women's treatment of Alldera in the early years, they did 'exclude' Alldera from Sorrel, as well as other social events etc on numerous occasions, and she was only 'tolerated' due to their complex kinship laws and relationships - it wasn't until she learned to ride, fight and raid and live like Riding Women that she was finally accepted. The Riding Women were quite conservative in many ways, despite their freedom of lifestyle relative to the Holdfast fems, and like many conservative cultures, they didn't like change or innovation. Their unusual clone mode of reproduction would have made them even more resistant to change I guess - but I did enjoy even the small moments of 'culture clash' eg. when one of the Riding Women sneers at the Free fems for eating greens mixed with their meat - instead of separately! I never saw the Riding Women as a utopia, although they were a relief after the harshness of Holdfast. I saw them as a realistic portrayal of how such a culture would have developed from such origins as explained in Motherlines, with their own unique flaws and bonuses. They were engineered quite roughly by their ancestresses and with only the basics allowing them to survive & reproduce in that environment were bequested them. The ancestresses knew that there would come a time, that they would lose all their technology, and hence there had to be a way for the women to reproduce without using laboratories, so they spliced the gene into the male horses. I guess they could have spliced it into a plant instead to produce the chemical or protein needed to 'trigger' pregnancy - but considering the horses were integral for survival for several reasons, and would become culturally important & least likely to be lost due to a bad season or environmental changes, it made sense to splice the gene into the horses. The mares milk wouldn't be useful because it was used in food etc - I suppose it could have gone in saliva, but too many other bacteria, and too many chances for 'mistakes'! ...semen seemed about the best bet to ensure survival down the generations. Perhaps they even tried initially to extract it manually without risking the danger of physical mating - maybe it didn't work, or early generations forgot the manual process, as literacy didn't survive in the Riding Women either. Like the Holdfast and other societies, much had been forgotten and lost from before the Wasting. And their self-songs for example, I saw as being a necessity that needed to be invented because of the need to recognise clones as individuals - hence it was so very important to them culturally, & individually - and although the Free Fems tried to imitate the ritual later - it never quite 'worked' for them:) Having had generations upon generations without human males, I found their reaction to men, somewhere between intense curiousity & wariness, very believable. Sheel's attitude & lack of guilt over shooting Setteo being something like - "well..if its male & running - shoot it' very much in character - although his death was so sad, particularly with the consequences with Eykar finally breaking when hearing that Sorrel had killed Setteo (but I did also think it was interesting that he back so quickly when he found out it hadn't been Sorrel at all) >I never imagined that Daya would be the one to engineer his death. In fact, >I'm still not sure what she intended. What a fascinating character! I felt >that Charnas avoided ever nailing down her "essence" for the audience. So >many of the things she did seemed evil and twisted, but she kept surprising >me up to the end. Did she really believe in Moonwoman? Or was her holiness >just an act? She seemed fully capable of deceiving even herself about it. I think she deceived herself for most of her life - as a pet fem, she had some privileges other fems like Kobba never had. But these privileges were very fragile, and her life was no more valuable than that of any other fem, and she was just as likely to end up dead as any other when her usefulness was at an end. Her privileges as a pet fem were bought at the price of her always having to be conscious of being pleasing and giving 100% loyalty to the most powerful men, in order to gain some protection from them and hopefully ensure her own survival - until she became free, that 'most powerful' who could give her protection was always men. In the tea-camp - she immediately allied herself with the most powerful woman, always demonstrating extreme fanatic loyalty, & trying to be pleasing even if that meant cruelly betraying others. Like a sycophant..she *needed* to know she was 'masters favourite' even when 'master' was a woman. Her relationship with Alldera was probably her first relationship of true mutual affection - and she found it difficult to handle, at least in part because Alldera didn't play power-games. Daya had been so ingrained & conditioned with the concept of men being the only ones to hold power (and therefore the only ones who could ever safeguard her life) - she constantly felt insecure & unsure of herself giving loyalty to women in power. For example, Daya never raised a hand against the men even after the fems won. She just could not bring herself to do it, although she was comfortable with being nasty to Setteo initially. She figured later that the Moonwoman religion and its followers were becoming more powerful than Alldera's faction - hence, true to character, Daya switches loyalty yet again to support the perceived 'more powerful' faction, even if it meant betraying Alldera. In the scene at Endpath with Alldera and the others involved, Daya tried very hard to argue that her actions were somehow demonstrating loyalty to 'both sides' - unsure as to which faction was the "most powerful", she didn't know which side to be on! In the end, I like to think Daya found peace of a sort - suffering guilt and confusion over her betrayal of Alldera, she finally figured where her true loyalties really lay, and in being true to herself, she sought some way of demonstrating loyalty to Alldera, even if it meant risking her own life and so "ending her own story". The attempt at killing Servan, was hugely courageous for Daya - particularly in overcoming her conditioned inability to show hostility to a man. So I didn't expect brave speeches, or confrontations between them - it was hard enough for Daya to even try. Although it took long enough for Eykar to pull himself together in that scene - and I particularly liked when Alldera said in reply to Sorrel's regret that she hadn't been able to kill Servan, that it wasn't Sorrel's job to kill Servan, but rightly should have fallen to Eykar and other men to deal with it: " Alldera tried to explain: "That was Eykar's task, his and Galligan's. Men generally want someone to do it for them -- us of course -- but in the end its their own job." "What is?" Sorrel said, looking confused. "Drawing the line, " Alldera said, "between what a man may do, and may not do, and still have other men call him a man" >The Epilog of the book, though shot through with the light of a promising >future, gives me a sense of loss every time I read it. The disappearance of >the Riding Women is depressing. In the Potlatch program notes, someone >named Debbie exclaimed, "They're the Elves!" She was right on. The feeling >of an age ending was, to me, very similar to the feeling I got at the end >of *The Lord of the Rings*. It's very effective -- every few sentences an >upwelling of emotion nearly makes me cry -- but I'm not sure the shift in >tone is really appropriate. Maybe Charnas is saying, "Hey, you are your own >Women now, so the Riding Women must go and leave you to your own devices." >But it gives me the feeling that they are retroactively being defined as >Symbols instead of a real society. And the fact that Alldera left with them >goes as least part of the way toward making her into a god, as Eykar >ironically predicted before their parting. What do other people think? I found the Epilog ending a surprise twist, and sad - mostly for Sheel, her feelings at having been left behind must have been horrible. But after the initial surprise at finding the Riding Women gone with Alldera - I thought I could understand it, and again I felt Charnas had made this more realistic, more real, more in character - than having all the loose ends tie up in a classic 'happy ending' with lets-all-live-together-in-harmony etc. It was because they knew Sorrel was bringing Eykar with her - and this would be just the first of having men visit the clans. The Riding Women had difficulty enough tolerating the tea-camp women, then later accepting them as a separate clan of 'honorary Riding Women' - but they couldn't accept men in their camps - bringing men would change their culture far more than they were willing to change. So off they went, they wished to remain as they had always been, women-only, secret and *free* - and not deal with men at all - but bearing no ill-will, they left the plains as a Gift to the Holdfast peoples. As for Alldera, I don't think she cared what others thought of her - she was getting older and tired even before the attempt on her life, she didn't want to 'play mother' to Holdfast, or men anymore - she had done what she needed to do. Fought back and won - she had no desire for power or directing a society through its birth pangs, inevitable problems, arguments, discussions etc - she wanted to live her remaining days enjoying her right to "freedom" so well-earned - I see Charnas saying in this scenario using the Riding Women "Your ways are not our ways, so you'll have to work it out for yourselves without our help - Good Luck!" Cheers - Julieanne:) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:59:39 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: fiona wade Subject: Octavia Butler and American History Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi guys, I know i'm breaking into the other hundred million threads I'm trying to catch up on, but I have a real question for those of you - seems like most - who know something about Octavia Butler. In the Mail and Guardian here in South Africa, there's been a question lately "Where are our young black writers?" I'm trying to write on a couple of writers that emerged after the American Civil Rights movement, and see if/how their development as writers depended amongst other things on the time frame and the distance they needed to get from the serious racial problems and conflict before they were able to produce good material dealing with race oh dear, i'm expressing myself very badly trying to see if there could be any parallel between the emergence of black South African writers in the future and African American writers in the past looking at Rita Dove and Octavia Butler in two separate articles if you're still with me after this confused e-mail and have something constructive to say, i'd be really grateful. Fiona Wade - separated from her University library and clinging to FSFlit ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:27:32 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: Octavia Butler and American History In-Reply-To: <386185061.981727179392.JavaMail.root@web589-mc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > In the Mail and Guardian here in South Africa, > there's been a question lately "Where are our young > black writers?" I work for Space:The Imagination Station in Canada. It is a national cable network devoted to sci-fiction and fantasy programming. One of the totally terriffic things about working here is that I can get my hands on all kinds of *FREE* SF and F books. Currently I am reading DARK MATTER:A CENTURY OF SPECULATIVE FICTION FROM THE AFRICAN DISPORA. It is edited by Sheree R. Thomas. There are short works of fiction by Honoree Fanonne Jeffers, Jewelle Gomez, Nalo Hopkins, Samuel R. Delany, and lots more. As well in the final part of the collection there are essays. Here is a sample: Racism and Science Fiction by Samuel R. Delaney Why Blacks Should Read (and Write) Science Fiction by Charles R. Saunders and The Monophobic Response by Octavia Butler are just some of the juicer ones. The book was published by Aspect which is a division of Warner Books. ISBN 0-446-52583-9. It costs $34.95 in Canada. If you can get your hands on it. You'll enjoy it immensely. Good Luck Lyla __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:35:33 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 at 15:11:17 0100, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: >There are two other societies presented in this book: the Bayo-born >and the Pool towns. What do you think of them? The Bayo-born struck me as an authorial device to highlight alternative means of dealing with men and keeping memory alive. Like the Holdfast women, I found the idea of controlling men by "gelding" them to be "a barbarically simple solution to a complicated problem" (p. 92), but I was intrigued by their tattooing ritual. Like the building of the cairns in the Holdfast, it kept alive the memory of the past the fems had survived and were determined never to repeat. I couldn't really understand why Alldera was so revolted by it. The Bayo-born's territorial conflict with the Breakaways was another authorial device -- a harbinger of things to come as the Holdfast continued to prosper and grow. But, with no viewpoint character and little time spent in their world, I didn't feel that we ever got to know them. In contrast we learned a lot about the Pool Towns survivors. Their situation and, later on, the fates of Leeja-Beda and Tamansa-Nan, were gruesome reminders of the brutality the old Holdfast males were capable of. Salalli very much reminded me of Anyanwu in *Wild Seed* -- another woman trapped in a relationship with a brutal man who, despite it all, is grimly determined to survive and protect her children. I thought it was interesting that the mild sexism of the Pool Towns left Salalli vulnerable to d Layo in more than one way. The mildness of the sexism meant that she lacked the Fems' emotional calluses; the fact that it nevertheless existed meant that she viewed the rule of men as being in some way right. By the time they got to the Holdfast, she was cowed enough to believe that no one could defeat d Layo. I thought her hesitant dealings with Alldera, complicated by homophobia and issues of race, were very well done. More than the Bayo-born, the people of the Pool Towns came across as real and complex human beings. And of course they are the ones who are on their way to integration with the Holdfast at the end. Did anyone else have the feeling that there were many more survivors of the Wasting waiting to be discovered? As the Holdfast was healed, the view seemed to open out wider and wider, to take in more variation and diversity. I imagine adventurous young women of the Holdfast making all kinds of voyages over time, getting to know more and more of the world they live in, and learning all the while. It is a hopeful vision. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Gomez -- Liquid Skin "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:08:38 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:23:59 +1100, Julieanne wrote: >But after the initial surprise at finding the Riding Women gone with >Alldera - I thought I could understand it, and again I felt Charnas had >made this more realistic, more real, more in character - than having all >the loose ends tie up in a classic 'happy ending' with lets-all-live- >together-in-harmony etc. Yes. And I like how options are kept open for women within the Holdfast itself. The Breakaways, at the end, are living lives very similar to those of the Riding Women, wandering with their herds, no men (and no children) allowed. The fact that women and men are learning to live together in the cities doesn't mean that that's the way everyone must live. There is plenty of room for some women to live for themselves alone, free of unpleasant reminders or duties. It seems like a tremendously healthy alternative to have available. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Gomez -- Liquid Skin "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:03:28 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marilyn Gibson Subject: Re: menstruation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with John that becoming more than human--male or female--is a sort of goal. He's right in saying that technological advances have made us more in the sense that we live longer and healthier and with more teeth. Many SF stories suggest androgynous beings that contain both sexes in a sort of balance, and if you believe in reincarnation, we've all been male and female. A control over one's bodily functions, even to a willing of having or not having a period, could be part of our evolution to more than human. Marilyn---www.hangingbyastring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:25:22 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: female movie & TV characters In-Reply-To: <200102070906.EAA23227@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:07 AM 2/7/01 -0800, you wrote: >Didn't know that, but it makes sense. Still with Sigourney Weaver >playing that part, Ripley came across as fairly believable, and very >much not a man with boobs in the 2nd movie (I avoid both of the >later films). I LOVE Ripley in Aliens! Cameron usually does a good job with female characters, but I don't like Max much on Dark Angel. The thing with Cameron's strong female leads though is that they are so idealized. But they do kick butt! >To me, Trinity seemed clearly there to be Neo's Anima (and >secondarily his love interest). The fact that she and Neo both look >and dress *very* much alike clued me in there. Having a female >character be a male character's anima is notably more interesting >than having her merely be a sidekick or girlfriend, but I'd still be >*far* happier if there were occasional male characters who were >there to be the female lead's animus. I don't want to sound ignorant, but what is an anima? >Leia was far to helpless/useless for my tastes, but that was the >late 70s for you. Amidala was OK, far from feminist, but at least >not deeply offensive (unlike that film's glaring racial stereotypes). Leia was a starting point for me. I was 3 when I saw Star Wars and to my 3 year old self, she was strong. Then there was Sheba on Battlestar Galactica. Looking back on them now, they don't seem so strong, but for their times, they were something new. >Very much agreed, although I still really enjoyed the film since it >was such a wonderfully satirical send up of a book I found deeply >offensive. It wasn't a good movie by any stretch of the imagination >(Paul Verhoven is a B movie genius, not a maker of good films). Actually, I've listened to the director's commentary on the DVD (I got it free, thank the powers that be; I'm so glad I didn't pay for that!) and I really don't think he intended it to be a satire of the book. He intended it to be a satire about Nazi occupation of Europe though. I'm not a fan of Verhoven nor of Heinlein, so far. I've only read Starship Troopers and I found it boring and offensive. >True, these days, TV is doing far better. It never ceases to amaze >me that Farscape is an SF show with cast that is predominantly >female (I basically count Pilot as neuter). >-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com I really need to start watching Sci-Fi's shows! I was so angry that my cable company didn't have it and now that I have a DSS and get Sci-Fi, I forget to watch it. Is Farscape the type of show one can just jump in and start watching anytime or if it isn't, do they show repeats often? Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:30:34 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: sort of, maybe, menstruation stories In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:15 PM 2/7/01 -0800, you wrote: >And E. M. Broner's book, A WEAVE OF WOMEN -- these women created new >rituals & rites for women, and it *seems* like there might have been >something about menstruation. The rite I particularly remember was a >ritual de-hymenization (not a word, I know) of an infant female. >The idea was sort of like a political/feminist circumcision ritual in its >effect. Without lasting physical effects / harm that come with female >"circumcision" (aka genital mutilation), or that may come with male >circumcision. The female hymen, as a physical manifestation & symbol of >women's oppression, is done away with. >I'd like to read it again. >laura quilter I'll have to look for that. It sounds like what Betan women in Bujold's book have done when they are 16. That's a whole other area I would like to read about and maybe write about. Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:11:01 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: menstruation I had no idea that feminist science fiction lovers could be so enamoured of the idea of de-womanizing women's bodies. Julieanne's long post about the various strands of feminism expressed my ideas far better than I can. The post from Nuria on the regular femnstsf list about their being only 2 kinds of feminism in Spain "feminism of the equal and the feminism of the difference" stated the same case more succinctly. John Snead wrote: "The idea of living in any sort of natural human state horrifies me." Well, there you are in a nutshell. There are those who are horrified by nature and those who embrace it. I count myself among the latter and think those who are horrified are busy making quite a mess of the world while they try to improve it. Antibiotic resistant bacteria, the emergence of new life threatening viruses (Ebola, HIV), the greenhouse effect, the pollution of the ocean are all due to man's conviction that he knows how this world should be run better than Mother Nature. I just read the following: Study Suggests Babies Fed On Infant Formula Grow Up With Higher Blood Pressure http://ipn.intelihealth.com/IPN/ihtIPN?st=23883&t=7223&c=311099 In trying to find substitutes for breastmilk babies have died in the process. The new formulas are pretty good though studies repeatedly show breastfeeding to result in lower breast cancer rates for moms and babies with higher IQ's and lower incidence of everything from diabetes to diarrhea. Anyone may be afflicted with disease, and finding cures for disease is a reasonable quest; however putting on our blinders and treating the body as a mixture of unrelated systems can lead to short term fixes that result in long term adverse consequences. I think it is obvious that there is an interconnection among earth life forms (and within humans among body systems) that, if disrupted leads to unimagined destruction. You know the old adage "If it's not broken don't fix it"? Well, I don't see that the human female body as broken. Someone wrote in about having menstrual periods that almost killed her. Certainly this is not natural. It was not the menstrual cycle per se that was her foe, it was the disease, and finding a solution to such disease is worthwhile. To say that because some women have severe menstrual difficulties all women should be able to do away with menstruation is like saying that because some people have ulcers all people should have the option of having their stomachs removed. I think the Western patriarchal way of thinking is directed toward individual problem solving, while the feminist orientation is to see the big picture. At least, that the orientation that feels right to this "eco feminist". Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:20:28 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: alternatives to tampons Here's an excellent site for menstrual related ideas. Check out "The Keeper" as an alternative to tampons. I haven't used one myself, but have heard good things about it. http://www.pacificcoast.net/~manymoons/ Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:24:32 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: genetic engineering of foods (was menstruation) >From another list. This is why I put genetic engineering of foods in the catagory of damage done to the planet Joyce RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH NEWS #717 . . ---February 1, 2001--- . . HEADLINES: . . BIOTECH--THE BASICS, PART 2 . . ========== . . Environmental Research Foundation . . P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403 . . Fax (410) 263-8944; E-mail: erf@rachel.org . . ========== . . All back issues are available by E-mail: send E-mail to . . info@rachel.org with the single word HELP in the message. . . Back issues are also available from http://www.rachel.org. . . To start your own free subscription, send E-mail to . . listserv@lists.rachel.org with the words . . SUBSCRIBE RACHEL-NEWS YOUR FULL NAME in the message. . . The Rachel newsletter is now also available in Spanish; . . to learn how to subscribe in Spanish, send the word . . AYUDA in an E-mail message to info@rachel.org. . ================================================================= BIOTECH--THE BASICS, PART 2 by Rachel Massey* In the last issue, we looked at hazards associated with eating genetically engineered foods: unexpected allergic reactions; unexpected toxicity; and the development of antibiotic resistance.[1] It is increasingly clear that genetic engineering is neither precise nor predictable; "genetic engineers" are tampering with the instructions for basic cell functions, without understanding fully how those instructions work. ** One source of unpredictable effects is the use of "promoter" genes. As we saw in REHN #716, the aim of genetic engineering is to take a gene from one organism and insert it into another organism. However, organisms have elaborate defense mechanisms to prevent foreign genes from affecting them, so a gene moved from a bacterium to a plant will not automatically work in its new host. To overcome the target organism's defenses and make the new gene function, it is necessary to add a "promoter" gene -- a genetic switch that "turns on" the foreign gene. The promoter of choice in most cases is derived from a plant virus called the cauliflower mosaic virus. Known as the CaMV 35S promoter, this genetic sequence causes hyperexpression of other genes. A gene is hyperexpressed when the proteins for which it contains instructions are produced in excessive amounts -- perhaps ten to a thousand times as great as normal levels. Because the CaMV 35S gene is so powerful, in addition to "turning on" the target gene, it may also "turn on" other genes near where it is inserted, causing the engineered cell to display unpredictable new features.[2] ** Plants can defend themselves against the intrusion of foreign genetic instructions through the phenomenon of "gene silencing," in which the cell blocks expression of the foreign DNA. Silencing may occur in unpredictable ways in genetically engineered plants. For example, a recent study found that infection with the cauliflower mosaic virus could trigger silencing of a newly inserted trait for herbicide tolerance, which was linked to the CaMV 35S promoter. Apparently, the plant defended itself against the infection through silencing of the viral genes. At the same time, it silenced other newly-inserted genes.[3] ** Genetically engineered foods may also produce unexplained health effects in laboratory animals. An article published in THE LANCET by Stanley Ewen and Arpad Pusztai reports on a study of laboratory rats fed genetically engineered potatoes.[4] The potatoes were designed to produce a substance known as GALANTHUS NIVALIS agglutinin (GNA), which is ordinarily found in snowdrops (a type of flower). The purpose of adding GNA to potatoes was to increase resistance to certain insects and other pests. Ewen and Pusztai worked with three groups of rats. One received the genetically engineered potatoes designed to produce GNA; the second received ordinary, non-engineered potatoes, without GNA; and the third group received ordinary, non-engineered potatoes mixed with a dose of GNA. Ewen and Pusztai studied the changes that occurred in the digestive systems of the rats in each group. The researchers found that eating engineered or non-engineered potatoes with GNA was associated with certain changes in the rats' stomachs. In addition, the engineered GNA potatoes were associated with certain intestinal changes NOT found in the rats fed ordinary potatoes laced with GNA. The researchers do not know the reason for these additional changes. They could be due to a "positioning effect" -- the foreign gene may have been inserted at a location in the existing genetic material that caused it to disrupt normal functioning of an existing gene. Or it could be due to the activity of other genetic material inserted along with the target gene, such as the promoter. Pusztai was forced to retire from his research position at the Rowett Research Institute in Scotland after he spoke publicly about the results of his work. (See REHN #649.) His article in THE LANCET is one of only a few animal feeding studies that have been published on the altered foods that are now present, unlabeled, in our grocery stores. ** In some cases, genetically engineered crops can have altered nutritional content. One study found that glyphosate-tolerant soybeans had significantly altered levels of naturally occurring compounds known as isoflavones, which are thought to have some health benefits.[5] The consequences of changes like this could be minor in some cases and serious in others. The important lesson is that when we eat soy, corn, or other important foods that have been genetically altered, we may not be getting the nutrient mix we could expect in the past. As long as these altered foods are unlabeled, we do not have the information we need to make informed choices about the foods we eat. Last fall, corn products in U.S. supermarkets were found to be contaminated with "StarLink" corn, a genetically engineered variety approved only for use as animal feed due to concerns about possible allergic reactions in humans.[6] The contamination was detected by a non-governmental organization, Friends of the Earth, working as part of a national collaborative effort, the Genetically Engineered Food Alert coalition. Had Friends of the Earth not taken responsibility for testing foods -- a function that should be performed by government -- we could have continued to consume unapproved StarLink corn with no way to trace the health consequences. We do not know what other errors may already have occurred; and since we do not know when we are eating genetically engineered foods, we have no way to watch for links between eating these foods and developing certain illnesses. Those who favor the rapid and unregulated introduction of genetically engineered foods into our food supply often say genetic engineering is really nothing new; it is simply an extension of conventional agricultural breeding techniques. In fact, as Michael Hansen of Consumers Union explains in a review article, there are some obvious differences.[2] ** Gene transfers across natural boundaries: Conventional breeding transfers genetic information among organisms that are related to one another -- members of the same species, or related species, or (rarely) of closely-related genera. (Genera is the plural of genus; a genus is a biological grouping that includes multiple species.) Genetic engineering, on the other hand, may transfer genes from any organism to any other organism (fish to fruit, bacteria to vegetables, etc.). ** Location of gene insertion: Variations of a gene are known as alleles. Genes are carried in chromosomes, and each gene has a specific place in a chromosome. Conventional breeding shuffles alleles of existing genes. In general, conventional breeding does not move genes from one place to another in a chromosome. Genetic engineering, on the other hand, inserts genes that were not in the original chromosome of the target organism. These genes may be inserted in unpredictable locations in the chromosome, producing unforseeable changes in the plant. ** Extra genetic material: Genetically engineered foods contain extra genetic material that is unrelated to the target characteristics. This extra genetic material can include vectors, which are added to move genes across natural barriers; promoters, added to "turn on" the foreign genes; marker genes, added to show the engineer whether the target gene has been successfully inserted; and random extra genetic material that the engineer inserts unintentionally. Here is a brief discussion of each of these categories: a) Vectors: Genetic engineering often uses "vectors," genetic sequences derived from viruses or bacteria, to move genes into the target cell. One vector used frequently is derived from AGROBACTERIUM TUMEFACIENS, a bacterium that causes tumors in plants by inserting DNA from its own genetic code into the genetic code of the plant. A study published in PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES in January 2001 reported that AGROBACTERIUM may be able to insert DNA into human cells as well.[7] When AGROBACTERIUM infects a plant under natural conditions, the genes are incorporated only into the infected part of the plant; they do not move throughout the plant and are not passed on to subsequent generations. In contrast, when AGROBACTERIUM genes are used as vectors in genetic engineering, the resulting plant includes AGROBACTERIUM genes in all its cells. Conventional breeding does not require the use of vectors. b) Promoters: As we have seen, most genetically engineered crops include the CaMV 35S "promoter" gene to "turn on" the foreign gene and overcome normal cell defense mechanisms. Viral promoters are not necessary for conventional breeding. c) Marker genes: As we saw in REHN #716, genetic engineering often involves the insertion of antibiotic resistance marker genes. This does not occur in conventional breeding. d) Unintentional additions: Sometimes genetic engineers introduce additional genetic material into the target cell without knowing it. Last spring, for example, newspapers reported that Monsanto's Roundup Ready (glyphosate-tolerant) soybeans contained extra fragments of DNA that the company's genetic engineers were not aware of having introduced.[8] On the basis of these points, some people would say that genetic engineering is "very different" from conventional breeding, whereas others would say that it is only "somewhat different." Either way, the differences have obvious implications for the ways in which governments should regulate genetically engineered foods. At a minimum, governments should require companies to conduct pre-market safety tests related to the special hazards associated with genetic engineering, and any altered foods allowed onto the market should be labeled. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:35:18 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laurel Lamme Subject: Re: menstruation stories MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Margaret McBride wrote: > > Going back to the original question about fiction dealing with menstruation, > doesn't Judy Grahn's Mundane's World have a coming-of-age ritual for the > girls? > I remember liking the book but read it quite a while back. > There's a nice description of such a ritual (party, actually!) in Suzette Haden Elgin's _Native Tongue II: The Judas Rose_, p.135. Also enjoyable are the associated words included in Elgin's _A First Dictionary and Grammar of Laadan_, the woman-language she created to accompany the Native Tongue series. They include _elashaana_, to menstruate for the first time, _deshaana_, to menstruate early, _wesaana_, to menstruate late, _hushaan_, to menstruate painfully, and _shaana_, to menstruate joyfully (a useful concept which English speakers could perhaps borrow). Please excuse the lack of accent markings and my relative ignorance of Laadan, a language with many other fascinating concepts. Laurel ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:37:48 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: alternatives to tampons In-Reply-To: <008901c093af$ad8e06e0$2aaaea18@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:20 PM 2/10/01 -0800, you wrote: >Here's an excellent site for menstrual related ideas. Check out "The >Keeper" as an alternative to tampons. I haven't used one myself, but have >heard good things about it. > http://www.pacificcoast.net/~manymoons/ >Joyce I bought the Keeper two years ago and I love it. It takes some getting used to and I know many women have "eeewww!" feelings when they first hear about it, but it's no more icky than using pads and tampons, IMO. The great thing about the Keeper is that it can last 10 or more years, so you throw away a lot less, plus you save a lot of money. Also, there is less risk of developing TSS and you aren't putting unknown chemicals in a highly sensitive area. Jennifer- just thought I'd send a testimonial ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:49:14 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: list-mistress seeks co-mistresses Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hey everyone on both lists. i love these lists, and i want to keep doing them. but i frankly don't have the time right now to be a decent moderator. feministsf is supposed to be more free-spirited & i only want to get involved if people are being really abusive etc. and feministsf-lit is supposed to be rigorously on topic. but these days i don't have the time to monitor either of these two lists. so i'm looking for volunteer moderators. these are my criteria thus far: * relaxed temperament * yet diligent * identifies as feminist * but understands that feminism is a big tent - non-dogmatic * and feminist in practice as well as ideology - which means what you think it means i guess * able to commit for 6 months * good access to e-mail / internet connection (dial-up or whatever, as long as it's reliable) * reasonably list-savvy * able to keep a cool head under assault * manage the list through seeking consensus & cooperation instead of authoritarian rules & demands * but nonetheless can make hard decisions when necessary * good command of English * probably someone who has been on the list for a while is best -- so you know the ropes and here's the situation: * i'll still be around * i can still handle list subscriptions & stuff if there are problems, or if the moderator goes on vacation or whatever * chris shaffer is my co-list-owner / shadow-owner and he's great. i don't know how much he wants to take on of this but i trust he'll continue to be around in the same capacity he has been. but the moderator should be able to: (1) subscribe people (which currently involves actually asking people what's up & talking to them via email, since the guy i kicked off has threatened to resubscribe under a fake email address) (2) manually subscribe people (3) help people with problems unsubscribe (4) keep an eye on the lists - people sometimes send notes to the list that they wanted to subscribe or where are the archives, that sort of thing, and those need to be handled; - people sometimes forget the basic rules (like no off-topic stuff on feministsf-lit, and no flaming on either of the lists) & need to be gently reminded - people sometimes need help with suggestions about html/text mailers, or whatever (5) help with any other odd list things that might come up (6) feel free to come up with brilliant ideas about the lists, or to work on their archives at feministsf, but not necessary to do so. innovation appreciated but not required, in other words. if more than one person want to do this we can figure out a way to get everyone hooked up together. if you want to do this, send me an email off list & tell me about yourself. if you don't want to do it but have some ideas other than the above feel free to send me an email anyway. peace. Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:54:04 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: farscape jumping into series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/9/2001 10:27:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, jenjavar@SUPERIOR.NET writes: << Is Farscape the type of show one can just jump in and start watching anytime or if it isn't, do they show repeats often? Jennifer >> It can be. But sometimes they go on story arcs where it helps to have the back story. I jumped into the first season in the middle of the season and did so without any confusion. But the last four eps. of the second season you do need the back story for it to make more sense. So, the real answer to your question is it depends what ep. you jump into as the first one. However Sci-Fi does show lots of Farscape repeats. Sci-fi does what the call a Chain Reaction every so often. What a chain reaction is about 4-6 hours of whatever show. Sci-fi does this alot with Farscape. Usually in Chain Reactions the shows telecast are the most popular or the ones that explain some of the back stories. Chris ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 06:53:34 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Bujold's Vorkosigan series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was intrigued buy all the praise the Vorkosigan series received at this site, (not to mention the replicator debate) so I just read the first 2 books, in Cordelia's Honour. I have also got the last addition tot he series, but I would like to read them in order. So I would appreciate it if anyone could just ell me which are the next couple of books in the series after Shards of Honour and Barayar. Thanks very much, Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:08:59 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Bujold's Vorkosigan series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi- I've must discovered in the back of Cordelia's Honour, a 'timeline' which lists books of the series ion order, as well as a brief description of content. SO it appears that the next book is 'The Warrior's Apprentice'- not to mention that there is a 'prequel- Falling Free'! Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:18:15 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Bujold's Vorkosigan series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to be a bother again- The Warrior's Apprentice is listed as next int he series after Cordelia's Honour in the timeline in the back of the book. However, amazon.com also has a book 'Young miles' for sale, which appears to have a similar content and take place around the same period in Miles life. The Warrior's Apprentice' is published in mass market edition I March '97, and 'Young Miles' in hardcover in June '97. From this, should I deduce that The Warrior's Apprentice is, in fact the next int eh series? Again, sorry to add to the load time for your email! Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:30:51 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Bujold's Vorkosigan series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >a book 'Young miles' for sale, which appears to have a similar content and >take place around the same period in Miles life. The Warrior's Apprentice' >is published in mass market edition I March '97, and 'Young Miles' in >hardcover in June '97. From this, should I deduce that The Warrior's >Apprentice is, in fact the next int eh series? Young Miles is an omnibus edition (similar to Cordelia's Honor) which includes _The Warrior's Apprentice_ and I forget offhand which of the others. I am surprised that amazon.com don't make this clearer on their site! Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:46:37 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: (femsf-lit) Thanks Lesley- & I hope Young Miles up to his mother's standards! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lesley thank you so much for clearing that up. I was afraid something like that might be the case, and thought it best to check before placing any orders. I read all the editorial AND Customer reviews to try and work out what was going on. Maybe I mussed something, but I certainly didn't see anything there indicating that it was an omnibus. ] Anyway, now that you have thankfully enlightened me, I have ordered Young Miles. I always feel like I am getting value for money with omnibus editions, not to mention not having to wait for the next instalment. I very much enjoyed Cordelia's Honour. List members had described it as 'light fem sf' which made me a bit dubious that it might be a little fluffy. But fem sf's fluff is mainstream sf's serious stuff- anyway, I loved it! Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:03:06 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Bujold's Vorkosigan series In-Reply-To: <78.1061dedd.27b7d73e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:53 AM 2/11/01 EST, Maire Shanahan wrote: >I was intrigued buy all the praise the Vorkosigan series received at this >site, (not to mention the replicator debate) so I just read the first 2 >books, in Cordelia's Honour. I have also got the last addition tot he series, >but I would like to read them in order. So I would appreciate it if anyone >could just ell me which are the next couple of books in the series after >Shards of Honour and Barayar. Thanks very much, I'm pretty sure that the order in which they were written is quite different from the order of events inside the stories . . . The best source for what you want may be a fan Web site. (I've never had occasion to look, but I bet there are plenty!) Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:24:28 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Bujold's Vorkosigan series In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:18 AM 2/11/01 -0500, you wrote: >Sorry to be a bother again- >The Warrior's Apprentice is listed as next int he series after Cordelia's >Honour in the timeline in the back of the book. However, amazon.com also has >a book 'Young miles' for sale, which appears to have a similar content and >take place around the same period in Miles life. The Warrior's Apprentice' >is published in mass market edition I March '97, and 'Young Miles' in >hardcover in June '97. From this, should I deduce that The Warrior's >Apprentice is, in fact the next int eh series? >Again, sorry to add to the load time for your email! >Maire Young Miles is an omnibus of The Warrior's Apprentice and The Vor Game, the next two books in the series. I'm also reading them in the timeline order in the back of the books, but I did read Falling Free after Cordelia's Honor and I don't think it makes a difference when you read that one. Anyway, I'm now up to Brothers in Arms and I will be reading that soon. Jenifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:24:02 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marga <428476@FILOZ.UNIZAR.ES> Subject: animus/anima Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello there, The idea of animus/anima was introduced by Jung, a disciple of Freud. he developed the concept archetype. he basically said that people in order to mature in life have to undergo an "experience" with these archetypes which appear in life in the form of symbols, they are not clearly stated but we have to interpret them. Some of this archetypes are those of the shadow, the anima, the animus, the father the Wise Old Man, the Wise Old Woman and so on. The animus and the anima are the two sides of human beings, the anima is the other part of the male being and the animus is the other half of the female being. It's something like the Ying-yang concept, together they are the whole, the full perfect circle. Quoting Demaris S. Wehr in Jung and feminism:"... As the anima is a man's unconscious image of the female, it can function in him as an `inferior woman´(All these terms are Jung's). This would involve his acting in ways theat are stereotypically permitted to women but not to men, such as crying, being sullen, sulky, tearful, plaintive,or otherwise emotional. ... "A woman, on the other hand, when possessed by her animus will act like an `inferior´man. That means, for Jung, that she will insist, shrilly, on the rightness of her opinion." So it basically refers to the male side of women and the female side of men but using sexist terminology. I completely agree with the concept of animus/anima in the Matrix, for me it was clearly used in order to stress the sexual ambiguity of both characters, they dress very alike and the glasses covering the eyes (Is) add even more ambiguity as concealing their personalities, the eyes are the way "in" to the characters personality. Remember Blade Runner, first scene. This archetype thing was the basis for Star Wars, Leia is the animus, Luke is the anima, Darth Vader is the Shadow, Obi-whatever you write is the the Old Wise Man. Luke and Leia are twins, both sides of the same thing. I guess the ugly long eared character of the fanthom menace was not in Jung's theories..... hope it helps you rather than messing up your mind. can anyone recommend me books whose main characters are amazons, please? I loved Marion Zimmer Bradley's saga. thank you. marga. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:21:51 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: Bujold's Vorkosigan series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is the chronology that's printed in the back of most of the books: As you can tell, Borders of Infinity has stories that kinda span between other books. I'd recommend reading it after Brothers in Arms, because it's written as a retrospective anyway, so what it does is fill in a little backstory. Otherwise, I think they pretty much were written in chronological order; there might be one or two that weren't. This list is strictly storyline-chronological, though: http://www.baen.com/catalog/vortimes.htm Maire Shanahan wrote: > I was intrigued buy all the praise the Vorkosigan series received at this > site, (not to mention the replicator debate) so I just read the first 2 > books, in Cordelia's Honour. I have also got the last addition tot he series, > but I would like to read them in order. So I would appreciate it if anyone > could just ell me which are the next couple of books in the series after > Shards of Honour and Barayar. Thanks very much, > Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:41:29 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: genetic engineering of foods (was menstruation) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:24:32 PST." <009301c093b0$3e310120$2aaaea18@lvcm.com> >why I put genetic engineering of plants into the catagory of damage >done to the planet Note that I didn't say it couldn't or didn't cause damage, only that I thought of it as a knee-jerk issue. The more haphazard methods of "genetic engineering" based on cross-breeding have a lot of built-in safeguards, it's true, but when everyone is growing one strain of one crop, you can still get a pretty effective famine if one disease comes in. Also, I have a deep distrust of any response to technology that says that the safest way to deal with it is to forget it. Unless you are far more positive than I am about the chances of shutting down, say, Monsanto's genetic engineering program, I don't see the advantage of relying on the chemical companies for information. I'd rather see some very environmentalist groups doing good science to find out what the problems are and how they could be fixed. Your article talks about scientists who do this work being shot down by the pro-GE forces, but I've also seen anti-genetic engineering groups trying very hard to prevent academic or federal funding of any kind of GE-related work. That's the sort of thing that I think is a knee-jerk reaction, and it seems (to abuse a metaphor) like shooting oneself in the foot. Jessie ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:20:20 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Hand of Prophecy Severna Park- Spoilers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I started Hand OF Prophecy today, and now, near midnight I am determined to finish before sleeping. It reminds me a little of Black Wine, and also the book I recommended to this list a few months ago, Honour of the Ken (pub. Xlibris) Slight spoilers follow I know intellectually, that humans are capable of accepting a slave culture- but somehow, I just can't *believe* it. If slavery ever rears it's ugly head n our future, ala Hand of Prophecy, I can easily imagine that what with technology, genetic engineering, expansion to space etc, it would become that much more entrenched. I mean, humans are capable of every cruelty ie slavery just the basis of perceived differences like skin colour. A future in which one group breeds bloodlines in other groups- to create the perfect slaves with traits such as 'the tendency not to run away'..well.... Another aspect that interested me was when Fenna was rescued by the Farqui (?) and he expected her to 'fall into his arms' emotionally, sexually etc. The idea that a slave owner can justify themselves just because they treat their slaves well- as though that makes it all right. That was one of the main concepts in 'Honour of the Kin' (the Xlibris book). At one stage in the book, after slavery of a particular group is introduced, the protagonist is bought by her best friend. The best friend is trying to do the right thing, but to the protagonist it's the ultimate betrayal. Because she refuses to accept being enslaved, even under the those circumstances, and says she will run away at every opportunity etc, the best friend basically turns into a master- for example- because there are fines for freeing slaves, and the protagonist has threatened to run away, she starts chaining her at night- that which would have been unthinkable, becomes ''necessary' and so on. I'll stop meandering on now, an d get back to Hand of Prophecy Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 11:59:16 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: animus/anima MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try Elizabeth Lynn! Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore, Sheri Tepper, Martha Wells. can anyone recommend me books whose main characters are amazons, please? I loved Marion Zimmer Bradley's saga. thank you. marga. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:12:28 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Amazons In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 11 Feb 2001, Marga wrote: > can anyone recommend me books whose main characters are amazons, please? I > loved Marion Zimmer Bradley's saga. thank you. _Sister Light, Sister Dark_ by Jane Yolen. It's available now as an omnibus with the sequel _White Jenna_ named _The Books of Great Alta_ (or so). It's a story about a young girl growing up in a "Amazon" society, the girl is a kind of "messias". Have not read it but it's often praised: the anthology _Chicks in Chainmail_ edited by Esther M. Friesner. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:58:12 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: Amazons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Have not read it but it's often praised: the anthology > _Chicks in Chainmail_ edited by Esther M. Friesner. Very very good stuff; not real heavy, but fun, for sure. There are three more anthologies in the series: Did you say Chicks? Chicks and Chained Males The Chick is in the Mail As well as "Mathemagics", by Margaret Ball, which is a novel-length story about the same character that's in her stories in those anthologies. -Sandy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:21:08 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Amazons (was animus/anima) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You should certainly check out the Theme Bibliographies on The Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy, & Utopia web site (as maintained by our list owner) http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/bibs/ These themes include Matriarchies Separatism Feminist Utopias Goddess Religions and Women Role Reversal Societies Intentional Communities Designed by Women Women-Only Worlds Amazon Societies ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:50:13 +0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Angela Barclay Subject: Park's Hand of Prophecy Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit As Maire has indicated, Severna Park's _Hand of Prophecy_ is definately one of those "should get to bed but I just want to read another chapter ... or two ... or three" books. In addition to making an interesting commentary on slavery, I think _Hand_ puts a unique spin on such varied issues as marriage, aging, sex-as-death and blood-sports. What I liked most about the book, however, was that Ms. Park created worlds, cultures and characters that I can still picture in my mind months later. I was especially fascinated by the evil and enigmatic prophetess, Troah who could kill by mere suggestion and seduce with the slighest touch. Has anybody else read it? It would be interesting to hear what you thought about it. Angela ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:10:46 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Amazons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/12/2001 1:13:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, mayerhof@USF.UNI-KASSEL.DE writes: << On 11 Feb 2001, Marga wrote: > can anyone recommend me books whose main characters are amazons, please? I > loved Marion Zimmer Bradley's saga. thank you. >> There is Bradley's _Firebrand_ in which Amazons are at least supporting characters. I believe Cassandara goes to study with them. And there is Donna Gillespie's _The Light Bearer_. The main character is not an amazon in the traditional Greek mythic sense. But a german version of one. Its not Sci-Fi but historical fiction. But it is a very femist novel. You could also look at Diana L. Paxon's _The Serpent's Truth_, and her triology based on the Ring saga _THe Wolf and the RAven_, _Dragons on the Rhine_ and _The Lord of Horses_. All of these have warrior female societies. And the main characters are members of such stations. Tooth is an adapted of the orignal Lear story. Chris ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 01:07:01 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: Park's Hand of Prophecy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think I preferred the first half of the book, before the story became about the arena. The setting the scene, the Virus, the breeding for slaves etc, intro to Fenna, her situation and then her learning about he possibility of life after Failure. But, I guess that is true for me of most sf- I prefer the world-building, scene setting etc, to the action, realisation of the author's imagined future; to the 'action' part, which is usually more or less the same ie a romance, a conflict, a chase, a climax etc. I've always wanted to watch a sf film, where everyone goes about their daily business, without any great drama, and so the audience (ie me) can focus on the technology, architecture, culture etc- instead of these things being merely the background. Of course, prob a completely uncommercial idea as most would find this boring. SPOILERS FOR HAND OF PROPHECY Anyway, I agree with Angela about Troah- I think that _Hand_ is a book that would benefit from a second reading, to make more sense of Troah- what is she etc. Near the end of the book, I was reading too fast to properly absorb all the info about Troah. Did anyone have an explanation for what exactly was going on with Troah's 'capabilities I know her control over Fenna and the other purebreds was attributed to pheromones- but what about when she caused Fenna to kill her brother, and her prophesying etc. Some sort of mystic/ supernatural talent from the Faraqui culture? Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:51:19 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Misha Bernard Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child In-Reply-To: <200102092135.PAA71926@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 at 15:11:17 0100, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > >There are two other societies presented in this book: the Bayo-born > >and the Pool towns. What do you think of them? > > In contrast we learned a lot about the Pool Towns survivors. Their > situation and, later on, the fates of Leeja-Beda and Tamansa-Nan, were > gruesome reminders of the brutality the old Holdfast males were capable of. And I thought this was very important- especially for those of us who haven't reread the early books again recently and for those who haven't ever. Just like the NewFems, the readers needed a reminder/warning of how bad it could actually be with the Holdfast men in charge. [snip] > Did anyone else have the feeling that there were many more survivors of the > Wasting waiting to be discovered? As the Holdfast was healed, the view > seemed to open out wider and wider, to take in more variation and > diversity. I imagine adventurous young women of the Holdfast making all > kinds of voyages over time, getting to know more and more of the world they > live in, and learning all the while. It is a hopeful vision. I wasn't sure. I spent a lot of time attempting (ha) to figure out where on Earth it might be... and wondering what the Riding Women would find across the Salt River. Also, the Riding Women- as has been said- are conservative, but are slowly dieing out through lack of genetic diversity. So, potentially, in the future, they will be vanished in actuality. Really, what I was thinking about the hope to find more peoples is that- other than the Riding Women who did know a slavery in the lab but haven't know another personally for generations, everyone left that readers are aware of (assuming the towns on the map west of the Pool Towns were also conquered by d'Layo's group?) are either recently enslaved/freed (Pool Town women and children) or the descendent of enslaved people- both the new Holdfasters AND the Bayo born. I don't know what to think of that. Misha Bernard Cultural Studies PhD student mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason University ------------------------- -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- Ursula K. Le Guin "World Making" (1981) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:25:41 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" lots snipped... > > >I wasn't sure. I spent a lot of time attempting (ha) to figure out where >on Earth it might be... and wondering what the Riding Women would find >across the Salt River. Actually, I did the same thing. I really think the Holdfast is in the Mid Atlantic States - arround Washington DC, The Refuge would be in northcentral Maryland - I am pretty sure that there is one of those shelters for the president to be taken to up there in the hills north of Frederick MD. The mountians they cross to get to the Grasslands are the Appalachians, and that would sort of make the great salt river the Mississippi. I wonder if we also need to account for damage done to the earth making the area much smaller - maybe the coast is more inland than DC becasue of the war and devastation. I did so want 'troi to be Detroit - especially because of Maggomas being an engineering type. But that really doesn't work - it's much too far away from the area, and also it would I assume be much colder there. They seem to imply that the climate is relatively warmer in the holdfast than say up in the area of the Pool Towns where they have maple trees (and get syrup that is sweeter than sex I think Salalli said). The sad thing is that I know it shouldn't matter where it is because it really doesn't have to be anywhere that really exists, but for me it becomes more real if I can situate it soemhow relative to current geography. I have doen the same thing when reading Gate to Women's Country (I figure it is set in California), and I tried to figure out where Vonarburg's Maerland is relative to Litale and Italy, and why Bethely is called that (it really makes me think of Bethlehem, but I don't think that really works for the whole locale either.) > Also, the Riding Women- as has been said- are >conservative, but are slowly dieing out through lack of genetic >diversity. So, potentially, in the future, they will be vanished in >actuality. I wonder if that is how it would work with a group that are just clones of themselves over and over again. I also wonder how fast mutation would really enter into the picvture. Would they even have been able to continue as long as they have already according to the story. Diversity is not really an issue for them. Each woman is the same woman, genetically speaking, as her mother. Their only real differences are in their experiences. It's a wonderful idea and a frightening idea. Are we all really doomed to grow up to be our own mother? And sister? And Aunt? etc. Or is that really the case? The other way to look at it is that each woman has many ova that are programed to create duplicates of their initial half set of chromosomes. But those ova do not have to be clones of the woman since we all know that in regular sexual reproduction the chromosomes in the egg that is fertilized by the sperm do not have to be an exact replica of what we have ourselves. For example I am deark haired but have a blonde haired daughter. Obviously I have some blonde recessive genes in my chromosomes, and if that egg happened to be the one that was told to dupicate its chromosomes to create a child without benefit of a human sperm for fertilization then that daughter would not look exactly like me. Somehow though I don't think this is the case here with the Riding Women though because originally they had been bred / created by the scientists to reproduce consistently as clones so that experiments on them would be readily reproducible and predictable. They are supposed to be races of women who are exactly alike for that reason. (It seems to me that somewhere I once read that they have done the same kind of thing with the Canadian laboratory rats used in so many studies today. They are clones or very close to clones so that the is no impact on the results of the scientists' studies that is related to differences in the animal's genetic makeup.) Oh well, sorry to have run on here. The whole Holdfast Chronicles series is just so facinating! Rose -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:55:39 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Or is that really the case? The other way to look at it is that each woman has many ova that are programmed to create duplicates of their initial half set of chromosomes. But those ova do not have to be clones of the woman since we all know that in regular sexual reproduction the chromosomes in the egg that is fertilised by the sperm do not have to be an exact replica of what we have ourselves. For example I am deark haired but have a blonde haired daughter. Obviously I have some blonde recessive genes in my chromosomes, and if that egg happened to be the one that was told to dupicate its chromosomes to create a child without benefit of a human sperm for fertilization then that daughter would not look exactly like me." This is not strictly accurate. In actual fact, all human cells have 2 sets of chromosomes, except for gametes (ova/sperm) which only have one set. Cloning an ova would result in an organism with identical genetic makeup. The reason brothers and sisters look different, is because, at fertilisation, not only do the 2 sets of chromosomes form each gamete, combine- but the genes on each chromosome *recombine* (recombination) So, your ova contain genetic material, which if cloned, would produce a human identical to you. But, when that ova is fertilised with a sperm- your genetic material is shuffled around, creating a different set of genetic material (same for the sperm) and ALSO combined with the sperm's genetic material. So, all your ova have the same genes, no matter which one was cloned the result would be identical to you. Fertilisation has the potential to create endless new combinations of your own genes, and then mix them with the sperms. Hope I didn't go on too much... Maire Shanahan (studied molecular biology) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.