From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:49:35 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:35 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0102C" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:05:11 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maire: > This is not strictly accurate. In actual fact, all human cells have 2 sets > of chromosomes, except for gametes (ova/sperm) which only have one set. > Cloning an ova would result in an organism with identical genetic makeup. > The reason brothers and sisters look different, is because, at fertilisation, > not only do the 2 sets of chromosomes form each gamete, combine- but the > genes on each chromosome *recombine* (recombination) > So, your ova contain genetic material, which if cloned, would produce a human > identical to you. > But, when that ova is fertilised with a sperm- your genetic material is > shuffled around, creating a different set of genetic material (same for the > sperm) and ALSO combined with the sperm's genetic material. > So, all your ova have the same genes, no matter which one was cloned the > result would be identical to you. > Fertilisation has the potential to create endless new combinations of your > own genes, and then mix them with the sperms. Erm... actually, the cross-overs you're describing do happen, but most of the variety comes from the random shuffling of the chromosomes when they're packaged into the eggs and sperm. A woman's ova are *not* all identical. With two copies of each chromosome, it's a toss-up which one of the pair will end up in an individual egg or sperm. With 46 pairs of chromosomes, you can see how much variety just one woman's ova can contain. The random shuffling also means that a "clone" made from an ovum would almost certainly *not* be genetically identical to the mother. To take a simple example: in one particular pair of chromosomes, Rose has one with the dark-haired gene, and one with the blonde gene. There's a 50:50 chance of either chromosome ending up in one of Rose's eggs. So her "clone" daughter could inherit either two dark genes, or two blonde genes - she could be blonde! The same random chance would affect the other hundreds of thousands of genes Rose has. Her daughter could be very different to her! (I hope that explanation is vaguely comprehensible. Any good encyclopaedia will do it better, with diagrams. :-) I'm partway through "Motherlines" at the moment, lagging horribly behind this discussion. :-) I must take another look at the explanation of how the motherlines work. If mothers and daughters are identical, then something else is involved. Cheers, Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:13:02 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: genes, and pigs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not commenting any further on the ova debate because (how embarrassing for me if I'm wrong) I'm still not convinced . Thank goodness the Internet is a medium people can disagree about things and not have ego come rushing into it. I remember listening to a friend going on very authoritatively in front of about 5 people about how pig's penises were corkscrew shaped. Nobody said anything. Form memory, the Riding Women reproduced by using horse semen to start their eggs dividing, resulting in identical (how identical being a matter of debate :) ! ). On the subject of genes, my cousin's son has just been diagnosed as having 2 extra X chromosomes! Ie XXXY. He is cosmetically male, but will need testosterone shots, is will be mildly retarded (like Foresst Gump, say) and my cousin say the doctor told her he is apparently more likely to have a gentle, artistic and shape-appreciative personality. I have never heard of this condition before, and wonder what the process s to end up with a cell with XXXY. I have heard of men with an extra Y chromosome- occurring in a minute percentage of the population, and apparently the male prison population has a greater proportion of extra Y's than the general population. The extra Y /male chromosome making them more aggressive, inclined to violence... Anyway, I apologise for going on again, I have been staying up late typing job applications and ten had job interviews all day, so that's my excuse. Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:49:41 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Erika Maria Lacey Subject: Re: genes, and pigs. In-Reply-To: <59.6e42e72.27bcf79e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:13 am 15.02.01 -0500, Maire Shanahan wrote: >I have heard of men with an extra Y chromosome- occurring in a >minute percentage of the population, and apparently the male prison >population has a greater proportion of extra Y's than the general population. >The extra Y /male chromosome making them more aggressive, inclined to >violence... Actually, at University I believe we were taught that this paper was a fallacy. The guy who did this study in the UK got these findings but nobody was ever able to reproduce it. He studied the men who were in prison in the UK, by the way. cheers Erika -- : Erika Maria Lacey : righ@uq.net.au : www.grailsearch.cjb.net : : "I have often regretted my speech, but never my silence." : : - Xenocrates (396-314 B.C.E.) : ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:09:51 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child In-Reply-To: <3A8C2867.26204.142AC31@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:05 PM 15/02/01 +1100, you wrote: > >The random shuffling also means that a "clone" made from an >ovum would almost certainly *not* be genetically identical to the >mother. To take a simple example: in one particular pair of >chromosomes, Rose has one with the dark-haired gene, and one >with the blonde gene. There's a 50:50 chance of either >chromosome ending up in one of Rose's eggs. So her "clone" >daughter could inherit either two dark genes, or two blonde genes - >she could be blonde! The same random chance would affect the >other hundreds of thousands of genes Rose has. Her daughter >could be very different to her! IIRC - the original ancestresses were engineered to have diploid ova - the 'trigger' chemical spliced into the horses triggered maturation, cell-division and pregnancy similar to hormonal stimulation. In that way only the first daughter generation would have been unique like Rose's daughter above - all generations after that would have been close enough to identical apart from random mutation in the developing embryo. Being diploid, they would not have been able to conceive by men either - it would no longer work the old-fashioned way. Its possible that some of the lines which had died out, had 'reverted' to the wild-type haploid ova production - but with no males, they could no longer conceive? Clone reproduction is well-known to be detrimental over time, the 'photocopy effect' is one problem - like a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy etc - with each generation, some information is lost This happens with some clone reproduced crop plants - they have to be reengineered every 30-50 generations or so. Unable to perform DNA self-repair which requires introns (segments of DNA with no functional genes - like ligaments or tendons, they are there primarily for physical support, but when 'lost' - it screws up the DNA replication & repair processes) - this 'copy effect' or 'data loss' is in part a simple explanation of what happens in ageing processes, the cells (which do reproduce like 'clones' - whether its liver, skin or bone etc) just gradually lose the ability to divide properly, because over so many thousand generations too much information has been lost. Diploid reproductive cells tend to double-dose bad genes as well as good ones - the original researchers were only interested in double-dosing of genes for telepathy I *think* - it didn't matter to them that other bad genes were also being double-dosed in their laboratory specimens. Its often mentioned by the Riding Women that certain Motherlines were almost defined by such traits - like the O'Mellys were all a little crazy, and everybody in the camps knew to be gentle with them, and one of the culture-clash scenes was caused because this sort of thing was so obvious to Riding Women, it never occurred to anybody to explain to the Free fems not to tease or argue with an O'Melly:) Julieanne:) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:33:57 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child In-Reply-To: <3A8C2867.26204.142AC31@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >Erm... actually, the cross-overs you're describing do happen, but >most of the variety comes from the random shuffling of the >chromosomes when they're packaged into the eggs and sperm. A >woman's ova are *not* all identical. With two copies of each >chromosome, it's a toss-up which one of the pair will end up in an >individual egg or sperm. With 46 pairs of chromosomes, you can >see how much variety just one woman's ova can contain. OK - the above is what I was trying to get at when I was questioning how the riding women all looked like their Motherlines. It is supposed to be some form of cloning from the description of how they all look alike, and the description in Motherlines of why they were genetically engineered to be that way - to make the work easier for the scientists. Charnas never uses the word clone though, I don't believe. And since the horse sperm is simply ised to trigger the cell division, the riding women eggs either already contain a full complement of chromosomes -( and aren't haploid, but are diploid like all other body cells), or somehow they (the chromosomes) double when they are subjected to what I assume is the connection with the sperm of the stud who triggers the mechanism. When I read it originally I just assumed that the full complement of chromosomes was included in each ova, and the sperm when it entered the cell did nothing but trigger the cell division to start for the embryo to begin to form. This seemed interesting to me, but not such a big deal. Now that I think about it though it has to be a pretty big deal because from the rest of the story it does seem that the ova do all have to be alike - the women of a certain line all have the same characteristics. Sheel can enter the camp of another group and be mistaken for another woman of the Torrinor line who lives in that camp - the only differences would be up close and related to scars etc., and Nenisi has sore teeth like all the women of the Conor line. And I think I remember than Nenisi explains to Alldera that if you wonder when you are young what you will be like as you grow older you have only to look at anyone else of your motherline, for other than differenct experiences their bodies are exactly like yours, other than in the clase of mutations ( and I think she does actual mention that mutations have occured). > >The random shuffling also means that a "clone" made from an >ovum would almost certainly *not* be genetically identical to the >mother. To take a simple example: in one particular pair of >chromosomes, Rose has one with the dark-haired gene, and one >with the blonde gene. There's a 50:50 chance of either >chromosome ending up in one of Rose's eggs. So her "clone" >daughter could inherit either two dark genes, or two blonde genes - >she could be blonde! The same random chance would affect the >other hundreds of thousands of genes Rose has. Her daughter >could be very different to her! That's sort of what I thought too - thanks for stating it more clearly. > >(I hope that explanation is vaguely comprehensible. Any good >encyclopaedia will do it better, with diagrams. :-) > >I'm partway through "Motherlines" at the moment, lagging horribly >behind this discussion. :-) I must take another look at the >explanation of how the motherlines work. If mothers and daughters >are identical, then something else is involved. > >Cheers, > > >Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ >"I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:49:10 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: genes, and pigs. In-Reply-To: <59.6e42e72.27bcf79e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi Maire, I understand and appreciate completely too the fact that we can discuss this and lots of other things without as you aptly put it "ego" coming into play. (perhaps unlike the men of the old Holdfast) I spent a lot of time last night thinking about that too - about what a lout Servan d Layo is, and wondering if part of the problem with these books is the authors seemingly blanket assumption that most men would just love to lord it over their fellow men and all the women. Are decent men that hard to come by? And would the men really become so openly vile if the world as we knew it ended and they had control over starting a new culture... if you can even call it that? One thing that struck me during the night (as I was thinking) was that women in these books feel more responsibility about making sure that the society runs smoothly and fairly ( though fairness is a matter of definition for fems like Kobba) while the men just want power - power over each other, power over fems, power over the few animals they have left, even power of the land itself - that whole description at the beginning of the first book in which it is said that they came out of the shelter and proceeded to clear the land in the same way as was done in pioneering times. Oh, here I am going on and on again. What I really wanted to say too, was that I remember hearing about the extra x's in a child psychology class I took at college. There are quite a few of these syndromes that include extra chromosomes - I seem to recall one with an extra x ( at least I think it was extra x) in females too that causes them to be smaller and immature for their whole lives - they never achieve menarche... I'll look for the text book and see if I can send you something on it. Rose >I'm not commenting any further on the ova debate because (how embarrassing >for me if I'm wrong) I'm still not convinced . >Thank goodness the Internet is a medium people can disagree about things and >not have ego come rushing into it. I remember listening to a friend going on >very authoritatively in front of about 5 people about how pig's penises were >corkscrew shaped. Nobody said anything. >Form memory, the Riding Women reproduced by using horse semen to start their >eggs dividing, resulting in identical (how identical being a matter of debate >:) ! ). > On the subject of genes, my cousin's son has just been diagnosed as having 2 >extra X chromosomes! Ie XXXY. He is cosmetically male, but will need >testosterone shots, is will be mildly retarded (like Foresst Gump, say) and >my cousin say the doctor told her he is apparently more likely to have a >gentle, artistic and shape-appreciative personality. I have never heard of >this condition before, and wonder what the process s to end up with a cell >with XXXY. I have heard of men with an extra Y chromosome- occurring in a >minute percentage of the population, and apparently the male prison >population has a greater proportion of extra Y's than the general population. >The extra Y /male chromosome making them more aggressive, inclined to >violence... >Anyway, I apologise for going on again, I have been staying up late typing >job applications and ten had job interviews all day, so that's my excuse. >Maire > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:55:19 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010215220951.00b0e3c0@pop.ozemail.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >At 07:05 PM 15/02/01 +1100, you wrote: >> >>The random shuffling also means that a "clone" made from an >>ovum would almost certainly *not* be genetically identical to the >>mother. To take a simple example: in one particular pair of >>chromosomes, Rose has one with the dark-haired gene, and one >>with the blonde gene. There's a 50:50 chance of either >>chromosome ending up in one of Rose's eggs. So her "clone" >>daughter could inherit either two dark genes, or two blonde genes - >>she could be blonde! The same random chance would affect the >>other hundreds of thousands of genes Rose has. Her daughter >>could be very different to her! > >IIRC - the original ancestresses were engineered to have diploid ova - the >'trigger' chemical spliced into the horses triggered maturation, >cell-division and pregnancy similar to hormonal stimulation. In that way >only the first daughter generation would have been unique like Rose's >daughter above - all generations after that would have been close enough to >identical apart from random mutation in the developing embryo. Being >diploid, they would not have been able to conceive by men either - it would >no longer work the old-fashioned way. Its possible that some of the lines >which had died out, had 'reverted' to the wild-type haploid ova production >- but with no males, they could no longer conceive? Ahhh - this was something that hadn't occured to me - if the modification didn't keep on because of mutation or whatever. I just sort of assumed that lines had died out because they weren't able to reproduce in time to keep on - if children dies in the child pack - Sharu swarms, whatever. But actually your thought here is as good a possibility. And, I had wondered if they could revert to reproducing with the men. > >Clone reproduction is well-known to be detrimental over time, the >'photocopy effect' is one problem - like a photocopy of a photocopy of a >photocopy etc - with each generation, some information is lost This happens >with some clone reproduced crop plants - they have to be reengineered every >30-50 generations or so. Unable to perform DNA self-repair which requires >introns (segments of DNA with no functional genes - like ligaments or >tendons, they are there primarily for physical support, but when 'lost' - >it screws up the DNA replication & repair processes) - this 'copy effect' >or 'data loss' is in part a simple explanation of what happens in ageing >processes, the cells (which do reproduce like 'clones' - whether its >liver, skin or bone etc) just gradually lose the ability to divide >properly, because over so many thousand generations too much information >has been lost. >Diploid reproductive cells tend to double-dose bad genes as well as good >ones - the original researchers were only interested in double-dosing of >genes for telepathy I *think* - it didn't matter to them that other bad >genes were also being double-dosed in their laboratory specimens. > >Its often mentioned by the Riding Women that certain Motherlines were >almost defined by such traits - like the O'Mellys were all a little crazy, >and everybody in the camps knew to be gentle with them, and one of the >culture-clash scenes was caused because this sort of thing was so obvious >to Riding Women, it never occurred to anybody to explain to the Free fems >not to tease or argue with an O'Melly:) True - I had forgotten that too - funny how no matter how many times I am reading this stuff there is still some to over look. It's nice to be able to have other minds to discuss it with. Rose > >Julieanne:) > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:29:13 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: genes, and pigs. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > >Oh, here I am going on and on again. What I really wanted to say too, >was that I remember hearing about the extra x's in a child psychology >class I took at college. There are quite a few of these syndromes >that include extra chromosomes - I seem to recall one with an extra x >( at least I think it was extra x) in females too that causes them to >be smaller and immature for their whole lives - they never achieve >menarche... I'll look for the text book and see if I can send you >something on it. Hi Maire, I just got out the Child Development book I used in that class a few years back - I was wrong about the non- developing syndrome being extra x's, instead that's Turner syndrome and it's comes with only 1 x chromosome with no matcher (x or y) for it. the ones with extra x's are "triple x syndrome" (girls) and "Kleinfelter's syndrome"(boys). They occur far more frequently than Turners - about once in every 500 to 12500 live births. The major symptom is delays in speech and language development. Interestingly triple x syndrome girls tend to be taller than average, and so do Kleinfelter boys. In addition to the characteristics you mentioned, it says also that there are hormone therapies that can be used to aid the boys because at puberty they are likely to have incomplete secondary sexual characteristics. Also the extra x is likely to make them sterile. Of course this text is from 1991, so I would imagine some changes have probably been come up with condsidering the frequency that it occurs. Rose -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:29:11 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Misha Bernard Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010215220951.00b0e3c0@pop.ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Julieanne wrote: > IIRC - the original ancestresses were engineered to have diploid ova - the > 'trigger' chemical spliced into the horses triggered maturation, > cell-division and pregnancy similar to hormonal stimulation. In that way > only the first daughter generation would have been unique like Rose's > daughter above - all generations after that would have been close enough to > identical apart from random mutation in the developing embryo. Being > diploid, they would not have been able to conceive by men either - it would > no longer work the old-fashioned way. Its possible that some of the lines > which had died out, had 'reverted' to the wild-type haploid ova production > - but with no males, they could no longer conceive? I had thought/remembered that some of the Motherlines had died out because, in each generation, any traits of the motherline became intensified. I took this to mean that chances for cancer increased and occured younger, etc. and some lines had died out already because of genetic traits being amplified into non-survival. I don't know that all the lines would end up the same way, but it did seem, evolutionarily, that it would just be a matter of time before the population was small enough that either many more daughters would be required of each mother or a greatly restricted lifeway would result- either way forcing more adaptations among the Riding Women. [snip] > Diploid reproductive cells tend to double-dose bad genes as well as good > ones - the original researchers were only interested in double-dosing of > genes for telepathy I *think* - it didn't matter to them that other bad > genes were also being double-dosed in their laboratory specimens. > > Its often mentioned by the Riding Women that certain Motherlines were > almost defined by such traits - like the O'Mellys were all a little crazy, > and everybody in the camps knew to be gentle with them, and one of the > culture-clash scenes was caused because this sort of thing was so obvious > to Riding Women, it never occurred to anybody to explain to the Free fems > not to tease or argue with an O'Melly:) > > Julieanne:) Misha Bernard Cultural Studies PhD student mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason University ------------------------- -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- Ursula K. Le Guin "World Making" (1981) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:41:03 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Misha Bernard Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Rose Reith wrote: [snip] > Actually, I did the same thing. I really think the Holdfast is in the > Mid Atlantic States - arround Washington DC, The Refuge would be in > northcentral Maryland - I am pretty sure that there is one of those > shelters for the president to be taken to up there in the hills north > of Frederick MD. The mountians they cross to get to the Grasslands > are the Appalachians, and that would sort of make the great salt > river the Mississippi. Ha, since I'm from metro DC, it never even occured to me it would be around here. Mostly because- from reading the first books to reading CC it seemed as if the area encompassed by the Holdfast, Grasslands and the Wild shrank! I had thought about the river being the Mississippi, but started to wonder when it was supposed to be so wide the other side couldn't be seen (how was it know to be a river, then?) and the desert just the other side of the mountains before the grasslands. I wonder if we also need to account for > damage done to the earth making the area much smaller - maybe the > coast is more inland than DC becasue of the war and devastation. I > did so want 'troi to be Detroit - especially because of Maggomas > being an engineering type. But that really doesn't work - it's much > too far away from the area, and also it would I assume be much colder > there. They seem to imply that the climate is relatively warmer in > the holdfast than say up in the area of the Pool Towns where they > have maple trees (and get syrup that is sweeter than sex I think > Salalli said). Actually, all that- climate change, maple sypup (?) and all made me wish I new more about the geography of New England and the Maritime provinces (thinking the river could be the Saint Laurence). I wondered exactly HOW much coast was above the Pool Towns in the woods and what type of forest was below the Bayo Swamps and Breakaway camps... and about all the potential peoples living there. > The sad thing is that I know it shouldn't matter where it is because > it really doesn't have to be anywhere that really exists, but for me > it becomes more real if I can situate it soemhow relative to current > geography. I know- but it does start to make it more 'real' in some way if you can make a connection. These are future people from the same place/group, etc. > I have doen the same thing when reading Gate to Women's Country (I > figure it is set in California), and I tried to figure out where > Vonarburg's Maerland is relative to Litale and Italy, and why Bethely > is called that (it really makes me think of Bethlehem, but I don't > think that really works for the whole locale either.) Aha- see, I did that too, and I thought it would have to be in Colorado, so that the oppressive polygynous group was in Utah. Since Tepper lived in CO and the SW, I thought it might be there- like Plague of Angels which I was convinced went up and down I25 from Cheyenne through CO to NM. Ah, to be America-centric =/ Anyone stick the Holdfast elsewhere? Misha Bernard Cultural Studies PhD student mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason University ------------------------- -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- Ursula K. Le Guin "World Making" (1981) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:51:06 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Misha Bernard Subject: Re: 'sex' chromosomes and 2ndary sex characteristics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Rose Reith wrote: [snip about Turner's] > "Kleinfelter's syndrome"(boys). They occur far more frequently than > Turners - about once in every 500 to 12500 live births. The major > symptom is delays in speech and language development. Interestingly > triple x syndrome girls tend to be taller than average, and so do > Kleinfelter boys. In addition to the characteristics you mentioned, > it says also that there are hormone therapies that can be used to aid > the boys because at puberty they are likely to have incomplete > secondary sexual characteristics. Also the extra x is likely to make > them sterile. Of course this text is from 1991, so I would imagine > some changes have probably been come up with condsidering the > frequency that it occurs. Hm, I just want to throw around the idea that since 1991 what's really come into awareness more- though maybe not in textbooks!- is the variety of sexes. So, really, biological sex is also a construct rather than an either/or category and using hormone therapies and other methods to "normalize' (and I'm not categorically denouncing this) 'deviant' individuals reinforces the idea of two concrete categories of biologically male and female. To drag this back to SF- unfortunately to a novel that doesn't seem to be particularly favored if I remember the discussions- Melissa Scott takes on some of this idea in _Shadow Man_ and I think does a really interesting job. However, I'm unaware of anything else somewhat recent (say, past 15 yrs) in SF that also does this except for "Congenital Agnesis" (?) that has been mentioned on the list occasionally. And I haven't read it yet, sigh. Anyone have anything else that deals more with a blurring of biological boundaries that are 'natural' rather than on a sort of cyborg front? misha ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:54:09 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010215220951.00b0e3c0@pop.ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Julianne: > IIRC - the original ancestresses were engineered to have diploid > ova - the 'trigger' chemical spliced into the horses triggered > maturation, cell-division and pregnancy similar to hormonal > stimulation. In that way only the first daughter generation would > have been unique like Rose's daughter above - all generations after > that would have been close enough to identical apart from random > mutation in the developing embryo. You recall correctly - from p 60 in my copy of "Motherlines": "The lab men didn't want to have to work with all the traits of both a male and female parent, so they fixed the women to make seed with a double set of traits. That way their offspring were daughters just like their mothers - if they didn't die right away of bad traits in double doses." (Nenisi) How this must have worked: The initial mothers had normal ova, with half of each pair of their chromosomes. Then these ova were somehow altered so that each half of a pair was copied, creating pairs of identical chromosomes. Normally the other half of each pair would have been provided by a sperm, so in a sense, the eggs fertilised themselves. Some genes were also added to these special eggs which would allow the daughters to do the self-fertilising trick without help from the lab. Since the chromosomes in each pair are now identical, the daughters can only produce more copies of themselves. My guess is that sperm trigger the self-fertilising process - once a sperm begins to penetrate, the egg kills it, and copies its own chromosomes. In the original mothers, any nasty recessive genes lurking on one chromosome in a pair would have been masked by the working version of that gene on the other chromosome. But some unlucky daughters would have got a double dose of that recessive gene when the egg fertilised itself. Without any working copy of the gene, that daughter would die, probably well before birth. > Being diploid, they would not have been able to conceive by men > either - it would no longer work the old-fashioned way. Its > possible that some of the lines which had died out, had 'reverted' > to the wild-type haploid ova production - but with no males, they > could no longer conceive? That's a good theory - that the lines which died out somehow lost the ability to fertilise themselves. Without men around, their daughters would have effectively been sterile. > Clone reproduction is well-known to be detrimental over time, the > 'photocopy effect' is one problem - like a photocopy of a > photocopy of a photocopy etc - with each generation, some > information is lost [...] I think you've probably put your finger on the mechanism there. > Diploid reproductive cells tend to double-dose bad genes as well as > good ones - the original researchers were only interested in > double-dosing of genes for telepathy I *think* - it didn't matter > to them that other bad genes were also being double-dosed in their > laboratory specimens. Perhaps that explains Nenisi's aching teeth! Mind you, by definition, the daughters can't have had a double dose of any lethal recessive genes. Here's a diagram of meiosis (egg/sperm production) online: http://www.biology.arizona.edu/cell_bio/tutorials/meiosis/page3.html Maire, your skepticism is wise. But incredibly, apparently pigs *do* have corkscrew shaped penes! See: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_060.html http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/swine/abc.html (My mind completely boggles. Aren't the Riding Women lucky they have horses instead of hogs? :-) Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 05:05:28 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks I checked out the meiosis site. It took me back to uni , the endless drawing of those little X shapes, telophase etc. I had to draw cell division many times- so why it is that I don't know about the genetic diversity of gametes os beyond me e. So, when the homologous chromosomes are pulled to either end of the cell on the spindle fibres (I remember that much) it's random whether it's the chromosome from the Mum or the dad that gets pulled to each end? So say, when the cell splits into 2, in one daughter cell, it might have got the Dad''s nose gene (simplifying) and the Mum's hair gene, in the other the Mum's nose gene and the Dad's hair gene. And in another meiotic division, one daughter cell might get both Mum's nose and hair chromosome, and the other daughter cell get Dad's nose and hair. Is this right? Please, someone help me!!! Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 05:16:05 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: Pigs, and to further lower the tone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/02/01 10:52:43 AM AUS Eastern Daylight Time, korman@ZIP.COM.AU writes: > http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_060.html MY GOD!!!! I just had a look at the site you mentioned regarding the piggies. Jut remember all- I know from experience that is you ever bring this little zoological gem up in a social situation, no one will believe you. My agriculture teacher also told me, while we are on the topic of piggie 'porking' as it were, that they quite often, while doing the business, enter the wrong orifice. Piggie contraception? Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 03:16:25 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: genes, and pigs. In-Reply-To: <200102160602.AAA63982@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maire Shanahan wrote: > On the subject of genes, my cousin's son has just been diagnosed as > having 2 extra X chromosomes! Ie XXXY. He is cosmetically male, but will need > testosterone shots, is will be mildly retarded (like Foresst Gump, > say) and my cousin say the doctor told her he is apparently more > likely to have a gentle, artistic and shape-appreciative personality. So far there has never been any evidence that genetics directly shapes personality, especially nothing so simplistic as having an extra X chromosome. My guess is simply that the doctor assumed that women are more "artistic, gentle, and shape appreciative", and so having an extra X chromosome would make the kid more "womanly". > I have never heard of this condition before, and wonder what the > process s to end up with a cell with XXXY. I have heard of men with > an extra Y chromosome- occurring in a minute percentage of the > population, and apparently the male prison population has a greater > proportion of extra Y's than the general population. The extra Y /male > chromosome making them more aggressive, inclined to violence... The theory of XYY "supermales" (as they were called) being innately aggressive was part of the whole US eugenics movement which had as one of its goals identifying folks with innate "criminal tendencies". XYY males were first discovered in the 50s, when the eugenics movement was going strong. Various exceedingly dubious researchers did their best to find evidence that there was a high percentage of XYY males in prison (indicating they were more aggressive and more inclined to criminal and aggressive behavior). All such studies have been completely discredited decades ago. They are nothing more than the naive assumption that male aggressiveness is in some way innate, and that it is centered in the Y chromosome. Steven J Gould talks about this some in his excellent book _The Mismeasure of Man_. OTOH, I think I remember reading that like folks with two X chromosomes, folks with 2 Y chromosomes are likely to be mildly retarded. I do know that a few folks have many (like dozens) of copies of Ys or Xs and they often have *severe* health problems. Take Care- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 03:16:25 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: 'sex' chromosomes and 2ndary sex characteristics In-Reply-To: <200102160602.AAA63982@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Misha Bernard wrote: > Hm, I just want to throw around the idea that since 1991 what's really > come into awareness more- though maybe not in textbooks!- is the > variety of sexes. So, really, biological sex is also a construct > rather than an either/or category and using hormone therapies and > other methods to "normalize' (and I'm not categorically denouncing > this) 'deviant' individuals reinforces the idea of two concrete > categories of biologically male and female. > To drag this back to SF- unfortunately to a novel that doesn't > seem to be particularly favored if I remember the discussions- Melissa > Scott takes on some of this idea in _Shadow Man_ and I think does a > really interesting job. However, I'm unaware of anything else > somewhat recent (say, past 15 yrs) in SF that also does this except > for "Congenital Agnesis" (?) that has been mentioned on the list > occasionally. And I haven't read it yet, sigh. I loved _Shadow Man_, then again I love both the subject matter and everything by Melissa Scott. "Congenital Agnesis" is fun, I enjoy Carter's fiction. Btw, zie has also written a novel called _Fortunate Fall_ How is it? On a vaguely similar vein, there is _Foreign Bodies_ by Stephan Dedman. It dealt with gender-switching in an interesting fashion, although the novel was not terribly good in other ways. In any case, I also would appreciate any recommendations for any additional books with similar themes. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 06:31:57 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: genes, and pigs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit maybe- but the condition is fairly severe, he will be retarded. The doctor was apparently referring to empirical evidence on other children with the same condition. I can believe that it would affect personality in such a way though- in the way that something like autism affects personality- it might be not so much that it is affecting personality exactly, but the development of certain sections of the brain. In any case, the reality is that he's not going to be a mathematical genius so if it helps the parents to know he may have talents in other directions, not dependant on intellect, then who cares. His appearance is completely male (for his age, anyway). Someone mentioned that boys with XXXY are usually taller than usual. I just remembered something that I actually mentioned to my uncle. Eunuchs are also very tall- very tall and lanky with feminine faces. Perhaps the lack of testosterone prevents musculature developing, which then has the effect of allowing bones to grow longer than usual? I wonder if eunuchs being tall and XXXYs being tall is related, or caused by a similar mechanism? Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 06:40:47 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: genes, and pigs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry, me again "So far there has never been any evidence that genetics directly shapes personality, especially nothing so simplistic as having an extra X chromosome" Sneered I'm not sure that having 2 extra X chromosomes can be called simplistic, for something that is affecting this boy so profoundly. Or say, Down's syndrome, caused by just the lack of one chromosome. I'm pretty sure that their specialist would be above suggesting that having XXXY genes would make his personality more womanly. Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 06:47:45 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: genes, and pigs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry, me again *again*. John, Thanks for mentioning the people with the 'lots of X's" - I remember seeing this in a textbook or something, and being amazed at the time. I'd love to know how this can happen- since we were just talking about meiosis, maybe someone has an explanation? In any case, I think I'll mention to m uncle about the multiple x condition. My cousin, who just found out her son has XXXY, has four children already, no money, a pretty useless husband, and has also just found out she's pregnant with twins. Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:24:54 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: genes, and pigs. In-Reply-To: <2b.112120ee.27be69ad@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >remembered something that I actually mentioned to my uncle. Eunuchs are also >very tall- very tall and lanky with feminine faces. Perhaps the lack of >testosterone prevents musculature developing, which then has the effect of >allowing bones to grow longer than usual? I wonder if eunuchs being tall and >XXXYs being tall is related, or caused by a similar mechanism? >Maire > This is an interesting idea. it would seem to work from the info available. And then there are castrati, the boys who were castrated so that they would always be able to sing soprano roles in operas. I wonder if they had a tendency to be tall? And to tie it back to The Conquerers Child, is Setteo tall? It seems to me that he is tall and lanky, but I don't recall any particular passages that really mention his height specifically. (And of course he is only a literary character...) Rose -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:35:40 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Margaret Poore Subject: Re: genetic complexity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit when organisms have extra chromosomes, it is because of an error that occurs somewhere along the reproductive line. It can occur during the formation of the ova or sperm, or after the sperm has fertilized the egg. There are many different types of errors, including failure of separation of the genetic material and inadvertent replication of extra copies. Most errors result in early death for the zygote, but not all. The more common ones have been named and identified. Down Syndrome, also known as Trisomy 21, is one of them. In it, there is an extra copy of the 21st gene. The effects of these various errors are varied and complex. Children born with Down Syndrome are not all the same in terms of levels of retardation and the typical physical abnormalities that can also occur which effect the heart, the middle ear structures, and the joints. There really is no way to predict exactly how any particulary genetic anomaly will be expressed in the organism (the difference between the genotype and the phenotype). In regards to the young man with the extra X chromosome, it is better not to make any assumptions about his cognitive levels or personality traits. Studies have shown that the expectations of teachers (and perhaps also parents) have a significant effect on the children under their care. When expectations are low, development is low. For years doctors told parents of kids with Down Syndrome to institutionalize them because they would be severely retarded. In actual fact, kids with this syndrome are among the least retarded of persons with intellectual deficits. Doctors seem to like to play oracle, but they are wrong with frequency and regularity. I have worked with kids with special needs for 20 years, and I can't tell you how many parents have told me that "the doctors said he/she would never walk/ talk/see/think/bond emotionally",etc. -- and the child in question had gone way past the physician's expectations. A close friend of mine has a son with an extra X chromosome. He developed normally until age 12, at which time he failed to develop into an adolescent and remained quite small in stature and build. By 15 my friend was concerned and had a thorough physical done, and at that time the genetic anomaly was identified. There is a name for this syndrome, which escapes me at the moment. In nearly all cases, boys with the syndrome are severely retarded. For some reason, Jeff has normal intellectual ability. He developed into an adult male with the help of regular testosterone shots which he must continue monthly for the rest of his life. He is sterile but otherwise can lead a full and normal life. Scientists and physicians have a long way to go before they really understand genetic expression. I don't think you can apply any of the "accepted" generalities about people with certain genomes to any particular individual within that group. We are, each of us, unique, thank Goddess!! Margaret ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 09:26:46 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Orman Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child In-Reply-To: <95.6f98fb2.27be5568@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Thanks I checked out the meiosis site. It took me back to uni , the endless > drawing of those little X shapes, telophase etc. I had to draw cell division > many times- so why it is that I don't know about the genetic diversity of > gametes os beyond me e. Meiosis II still messes with my head. I mean, *why*? :-) > So, when the homologous chromosomes are pulled to either end of > the cell on the spindle fibres (I remember that much) it's random > whether it's the chromosome from the Mum or the dad that gets > pulled to each end? Yep, you got it! Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I am a very silly person, really." - Equinox the Surrealist ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:57:30 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: 'sex' chromosomes and 2ndary sex characteristics In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:51 PM 2/15/01 -0500, Misha Bernard wrote: > >Hm, I just want to throw around the idea that since 1991 what's really >come into awareness more- though maybe not in textbooks!- is the variety >of sexes. So, really, biological sex is also a construct rather than an >either/or category and using hormone therapies and other methods to >"normalize' (and I'm not categorically denouncing this) 'deviant' >individuals reinforces the idea of two concrete categories of biologically >male and female. In your eagerness to identify other constructions, you may not be giving enough attention to your own. "biological sex", or "reproduction", is real. (Unless you actually _do_ find babies under cabbage leaves!) It is enoromously complex, though, involving genetics; cellular differentiation; a variety of organs; a variety of bahaviors, impulses, and activities; etc. Each of which has a functional range with varioius edges. There is, naturally, a terrific variety of variations, some functional, some not, some unclear. > To drag this back to SF- unfortunately to a novel that doesn't >seem to be particularly favored if I remember the discussions- Melissa >Scott takes on some of this idea in _Shadow Man_ and I think does a really >interesting job. However, I'm unaware of anything else somewhat recent >(say, past 15 yrs) in SF that also does this except for "Congenital >Agnesis" (?) that has been mentioned on the list occasionally. And I >haven't read it yet, sigh. That's Raphael Carter's "Congenital Agenesis of Gender Ideation" (approximately). I've been admiringly enthusiastic about it since I had the good luck to catch zir reading it while it still wasn't quite finished. > Anyone have anything else that deals more with a blurring of >biological boundaries that are 'natural' rather than on a sort of cyborg >front? Raphael's home page has a RAQ (rarely asked questions) on intersexuality. Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:40:46 +0100 Reply-To: diane.severson@musician.org Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Diane Severson Subject: Silent Her MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT I've started reading a story on SciFi Wire called _Silent Her_ by Barry B. Longyear. Is anyone else reading this? It's written from the point of view of a female child growing up in an muslim earth colony where somehow the women have lost the ability to speak. They can hear and understand and are otherwise intelligent but merely can't talk anymore. The men have passed laws (attributed to laws of God) which forbid the women possessing names and from using sign-language. Neither of which the women adhere to. The girl, whose pet-name is Silent Her, grows up in a reform household where the women are allowed to use sign- language. It's being published online in installments and I'm curious to see how it developes. Anyone can read it at http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/originals/originals_archive/longyear/lo ngyear1.html Diane Diane Severson Mörfelder Landstr. 108 60598 Frankfurt am Main Germany +49/(0)69/613371 +49/(0)177/465-7504 (mobile) "scents of not known musics in whose careful eyes are dinned..." e.e.cummings ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:37:18 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Christine Ethier Subject: Off topic: oz book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a quick note. I noticed that during the discussion of Wicked at least two people revealed deep interst in Oz so here some information about a book published last year. _Oz Before the Rainbow: L.Frank Braum's The Wonderful Wizard of Oz on Stage and Screen to 1939_ by Mark Evan Swartz. It is published by John Hopkins Press. You can go to thier website (www.jhupbooks.com) and read the first chapter. 228 pp and is listed as $27.96 in the John Hopkins University Press Catalog. Chris ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:58:51 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: Wiscon Call for Papers (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:36:28 EST From: Joesanders@aol.com Reply-To: iafa-l@wiz.cath.vt.edu To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Wiscon Call for Papers Promised Justine Larbalestier I'd circulate this: Call for Papers: WisCon 25 the conference of feminist science fiction Memorial Day weekend, May 25-28 2001, at the Concourse Hotel in downtown Madison, Wisconsin We invite papers and presentations on any topic within feminism, science fiction, fantasy or horror (both literature and media). We especially welcome papers on the work of this year's guests of honour, Nancy Kress and Elisbeth Vonarburg; and special guest Carol Emshwiller. Papers at WisCon cover a wide range of topics and ask many different kinds of questions: histories of feminist science fiction Whiter than white? If the future is going to be white middle class and American can you kill me now? approaches to particular authors such as Karen Joy Fowler, Naolo Hopkinson, Ursula Le Guin, Maureen McHugh, C. L. Moore, Kim Stanley Robinson, James Tiptree, Jr. and many others are warrior women really the answer? histories and stories and adventures of feminist fandom representations of men in horror films the class systems of the Star Trek universe the James Tiptree, Jr. Memorial Award gender bending in science fiction comics U.S. Politics: Fantasy, Horror, or Science Fiction? Send proposals via e-mail to: Justine Larbalestier jazza@english.usyd.edu.au Deadline: April 10, 2001 ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:19:52 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:49 AM 2/15/01 -0500, Rose Reith wrote: >I spent a lot of time last night thinking about [...] what >a lout Servan d Layo is, and wondering if part of the problem with >these books is the authors seemingly blanket assumption that most men >would just love to lord it over their fellow men and all the women. >Are decent men that hard to come by? And would the men really become >so openly vile if the world as we knew it ended and they had control >over starting a new culture... if you can even call it that? Well, the first book, which set the stage for all the others, was a satire. Charnas was writing an extreme inversion of the "Nixonian ethos" of the time, and that involved pushing sexism to its limit. What's so depressing, though, is that it doesn't take too much work for me to imagine the conditions in the Holdfast becoming reality. Two words: the Taliban. I don't think that Charnas is making an essentialist argument, that men would do this and women would do this, etc. If she were, men would not be able to change enough to fit into the new Holdfast. At the end of *The Conqueror's Child* people like Payder look to be the model of the "new man"; they've realized that they have no investment in the old ways and are moving on. I see Charnas' stance to be very much skewed toward nurture, rather than nature, at least as far as sex roles are concerned. She is just realistic about how hard it can be to shed behaviors and thought patterns that are deeply ingrained. The reason it is relatively easier for the fems is that their lives as slaves forced them to be more aware of the range of human behavior and psychology; they had to know the oppressors intimately in order to survive. By the same token, the "junior" men have to know the "seniors"; d Layo is a master at manipulating these older guys in *Walk to the End of the World*. So we know that men are capable of insight. It's just that fems, being further down the totem pole, don't register for them. That's why the power structure needs to be totally upset to start over again. This leads me to a question I've been pondering. At the end of the book Alldera says that killing d Layo was a task for Eykar and Galligan, that they must take it upon themselves to draw the line between what a man may and may not do and still be called a man. But... the drama in which this line was drawn was in some ways a stereotypical jealous rage. Galligan, seeing his woman done wrong, whipped d Layo's butt. Of course, with all his conditioning telling him that feeling love for a fem was wrong and perverted, Galligan was taking a pretty big step. But something still feels a little weird about Allldera's comment. Haven't men in the Holdfast always policed themselves? The difference is in viewing fems as equal players in the polity. Ha ha. I just inserted my Microsoft Bookshelf CD and this very appropriate quotation popped up: Whom do we dub as Gentleman? The Knave, the fool, the brute -- If they but own full tithe of gold, and Wear a courtly suit. -- Eliza Cook, (1818-89) That may be the answer to my question. That men in the old Holdfast could overlook any lapse in morality as long as the offender was powerful enough. Hierarchy is the root of their evil. By the end of the book, at least, the fems seem to have avoided this evil, if by the skin of their teeth. Alldera's refusal to stay in the Holdfast and "do everything" helps. She doesn't want to be an authority. And things are looking promising for the people she is leaving behind. Not happily ever after, maybe. But without the "ladder" of social status that Alldera mentions, the future is a lot more hopeful. Did I mention that I love these books? :-) ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT Feminist SF Posting Archive at: http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/femsf-index.htm Listening to: Badly Drawn Boy -- The Hour of Bewilderbeast "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:42:52 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/19/01 2:18:46 PM, jdawley@IMPOP.BELLATLANTIC.NET writes: << What's so depressing, though, is that it doesn't take too much work for me to imagine the conditions in the Holdfast becoming reality. Two words: the Taliban. >> And two others: Christian Right. best, phoebe w ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:28:08 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child In-Reply-To: <99.10e1b3a4.27c2ed5c@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:42 PM 02/19/2001 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 2/19/01 2:18:46 PM, jdawley@IMPOP.BELLATLANTIC.NET writes: > ><< What's so depressing, >though, is that it doesn't take too much work for me to imagine the >conditions in the Holdfast becoming reality. Two words: the Taliban. >> > >And two others: Christian Right. > >best, >phoebe w And a third -- a book featured in the DALLAS PAPER Sunday session, "The Suppressed Wife" written by a woman claiming this is how to save your marriage--never criticize and give him control over all the money! Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:20:14 +0100 Reply-To: diane.severson@musician.org Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Diane Severson Subject: Re: Silent Her In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010217153713.01576800@pop.enteract.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Neil (and anyone else), Did you read the story? Possible Spoiler: * * * * * * I was reading and at the end of page 4 (I think), I was pretty annoyed by the line "I've found my protector" or something like that regarding her brother. I will keep reading and see if the author redeems himself in a feminist sense.... Diane Diane Severson Mörfelder Landstr. 108 60598 Frankfurt am Main Germany +49/(0)69/613371 +49/(0)177/465-7504 (mobile) "scents of not known musics in whose careful eyes are dinned..." e.e.cummings ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:21:26 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Misha Bernard Subject: Re: BDG: Conqueror's Child In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010219124337.00ac4360@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > This leads me to a question I've been pondering. At the end of the book > Alldera says that killing d Layo was a task for Eykar and Galligan, that > they must take it upon themselves to draw the line between what a man may > and may not do and still be called a man. But... the drama in which this > line was drawn was in some ways a stereotypical jealous rage. Galligan, > seeing his woman done wrong, whipped d Layo's butt. Of course, with all his > conditioning telling him that feeling love for a fem was wrong and > perverted, Galligan was taking a pretty big step. But something still feels > a little weird about Allldera's comment. Haven't men in the Holdfast always > policed themselves? The difference is in viewing fems as equal players in > the polity. > I took that the men had to decide for themselves what it meant to be a man slightly differently- though when I first read it, I thought UGH. However, thinking about it, what I see Charnas doing is showing that men have to (and be allowed to) make up their own minds about what is appropriate behavior (as should any group forming a society of equals). Thought about this way- and with what Janice said below- the women can't force the Holdfast men into a new mold, but the men have to choose that being men means being equal with women, not out for violence, etc. [snip] > That may be the answer to my question. That men in the old Holdfast could > overlook any lapse in morality as long as the offender was powerful enough. > Hierarchy is the root of their evil. By the end of the book, at least, the > fems seem to have avoided this evil, if by the skin of their teeth. > Alldera's refusal to stay in the Holdfast and "do everything" helps. She > doesn't want to be an authority. And things are looking promising for the > people she is leaving behind. Not happily ever after, maybe. But without > the "ladder" of social status that Alldera mentions, the future is a lot > more hopeful. I think this last bit is very important: everyone making their own choices in the group(s). It's also very difficult, and something other femSF deals with. When there's no leader with what might be taken as "the right answer" there's no place to fall back. The men- not only Galligan and Eykar killing d'Layo, but all the ones who requested to be sponsored or killed themselves- had to make a choice about what type of society they would participate in and the women had to make choices about sharing. Misha Bernard Cultural Studies PhD student mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason University ------------------------- -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- Ursula K. Le Guin "World Making" (1981) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:58:04 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: Silent Her Thanks so much for the SciFi Wire site. I'm enjoying "Silent Her" very much, just sorry I have to wait for the next episode. Oh, and all those other stories, now how am I ever supposed to get anything done if I'm stuck here in front of my computer all day? http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/originals/ spoiler I didn't see anything wrong with the idea of a threatened little girl thinking she had found a protector. Anyone who is made to feel she had no ability or right to control anything that happens to her would assume that her only protection would come from others. I think there are 2 more weeks to go. Maybe she'll find she has some power of her own. Apparently she is to discover that she's the new messenger or messiah, sounds like a powerful position to me. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:02:09 -0600 Reply-To: rudyleon@earthlink.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rudy Leon Subject: search engine for books by the elements MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I got this off of LibraryJuice Newsletter, and they reprinted it with permission as noted on the bottom. I don't have permission, but I figured advertising is good. ResearchBuzz, the original source of this excerpt, is a newsletter I've been hearing a lot of buzz about lately.... ** A Search Engine for Bookworms Wow, what an engine. Allreaders ( http://www.allreaders.com ) allows you to search for book information through several different elements, including plot, main character, main adversary, plot elements, etc. The site divides the books into several genres (literature, sci-fi, romance, etc.). The site covers several authors but it's not comprehensive. You can list the authors in each author or go straight to the search form. The search form for the detailed search asks a number of questions about a book, including plot points, etc. When you use the detailed search form, a lot of your choices will cause the page to reload. Don't worry about that. For example, you may choose an "animal story" plot point. Once you've chosen that, the page will reload and give you more options (in this case, you'll be able to specify what kind of animal.) You can answer as many or as few questions as you like in the detailed search. The search results page will give you book name, author name, and number of matches. Click on a book name and you'll be taken to the book summary pages. The summary pages contain book review summaries, and summary details (basically information about the book presented in the same way as the detailed search form requests it.) The elements that match your search are highlighted. At the bottom of the page are the top ten books in the AllReaders search engine that match the summarized book's characteristics. I was tickled to see that Atlas Shrugged was such a close match to Alice in Wonderland. Who knew? The detailed search form will seem overwhelming at first, but it's worth the time to play with it and see what you can get out of it. Maybe some new reading recommendations. Worth a look. Reproduced with permission of ResearchBuzz ( http://www.researchbuzz.com ). ________________________________________________________ _____________ Rudy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.