From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:50:45 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:35 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0103A" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:31:48 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: I forget... Comments: To: Fem-SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit has anyone discussed whether this is worth the time? http://www.scifi.com/kindred/ -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:50:42 +0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Angela Barclay Subject: cyberfeminism Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all: I'm temporarily off the general discussion list for time-management reasons, but thought I could call upon your expertise and ask an off topic question because this list has been a little quiet. I'm currently reading Donna Haraway's _Simians,Cyborgs and Women_ and having some difficulty getting my head around her concept of "cyberfeminism". Can anybody shed some light on this seemingly difficult concept? I recall the term being brought up in a post a month or two ago in comparison to ecofeminism. What is the relationship between the two? Lastly, to create an intersection between feminism and sf, are there any fsf/f/u works which epitomize cyberfeminism? Thanks, Angela ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 00:04:07 -0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: cyberfeminism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Angela Barclay wrote: >I'm currently reading Donna Haraway's _Simians,Cyborgs and Women_ and > >having some difficulty getting my head around her concept >of >"cyberfeminism". Can anybody shed some light on this seemingly >difficult >concept? I recall the term being brought up in a post a >month or two ago >in comparison to ecofeminism. What is the >relationship between the two? Since I was the culprit at the time, I should probably make an effort to explain what I was talking about. For a start, it's probably best to know that my rather idiosyncratic knowledge of the field is based on reading I did while trying to wrap my head around a PhD thesis which I dropped out of 2 or 3 years ago - so I'm 3 years out of date, and my info is very skewed to the rather specific topic I was researching at the time. As far as cyberfeminism goes, all I can say is keep reading the Cyborg Manifesto. I know it's tough going, but if you keep at it, you eventually reach a moment of revelation - oh! so that's what she means! Of course! I think it hit me on about the fourth time through. There is an interview Haraway did with Constance Penley and Andrew Ross called, I think, "The Actors are Cyborgs, Nature is Coyote and Geography is Elsewhere" which also helped me understand her ideas a lot better, as she was explaining them in conversation and answering questions. It is more recent than the Cyborg essay - published, iirc, in the Penley/Ross anthology _Technoculture_ sometime in the early nineties. I also like an essay she had published in the Lawrence Grossberg edited anthology _Cultural Studies_, "The Promises of Monsters". This later work begins making connections between cyborg feminism and ideas about the natural world which I found extremely interesting. I had spent a long time reading feminist critiques of subjectivity from both "techno" and "ecofeminist" perspectives and had found them both inadequate. As far as I know, there is no "official" connection between cyber and eco feminism - it exists mainly in my own head, as Haraway's ideas provided some particular solutions to what I saw as limits to ecofeminism without being hostile or in opposition to it. >Lastly, to create an intersection between feminism and sf, are there >any >fsf/f/u works which epitomize cyberfeminism? That's a tough one. I regard Haraway's essays as science fictional in themselves, but I doubt that's what you have in mind. Her emphasis on "figuration" as a rhetorical device is IMO, so close to what SF does that there's no difference worth a damn. But apart from that, I can't think of much that shares the depth and subtlety of Haraway's arguments. As far as the relations to the natural world go, the closest I have found is Kim Stanley Robinson's _Mars_ series. Octavia Butler's _Xenogenesis_ series examines the issues of hybridity and consequent problems of loyalty very well, although across the human-alien rather than the human-technology border. Can't think of much else right now, I'll see if I can think of anything else later. Kate _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:07:55 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: cyberfeminism In-Reply-To: <20010301224034.IQSG7520.priv-edtnes03-hme0.telusplanet.net @[161.184.49.151]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >I'm currently reading Donna Haraway's _Simians,Cyborgs and Women_ and having >some difficulty getting my head around her concept of "cyberfeminism". Can >anybody shed some light on this seemingly difficult concept? I recall the >term being brought up in a post a month or two ago in comparison to >ecofeminism. What is the relationship between the two? Lastly, to create >an intersection between feminism and sf, are there any fsf/f/u works which >epitomize cyberfeminism? > >Thanks, >Angela Take my answer as extremely off the top of my head after a long exhausting day (but how nice to switch to talking about feminism as compared to cleaning up the office!) Haraway is a biologist (primate specialist) and a socialist-feminist. Chapter 8 of this collection, as I recall, is the one that really focuses on her cyberfeminist stance. I think she's somewhat arguing against the strand of feminist philosophy that celebrates a close relationship between "women" and "nature" (Susan Griffin is one of my favorite writers in that area), against a certain kind of "Goddess" feminism (Haraway's goddess is a cyborg goddess), but H. does not argue for a simplistic idea of a "cyborg." because as I recall it's not only the "blending" of human and machines, but also humans/animals, humans/Others, not walling off technology as the preserve of males. But she draws heavily on a lot of postmodern/poststructuralist thought (for example, she compares characteristics of modernism and postmodernism, and science fiction is the literature of postmodernism). I don't claim to understand all of Haraway (and I've even tried to teach her work in a graduate course)--some of her theoretical sections are incredibly dense. But she's done some fascinating things, including drawing on work by Chicana feminists as an example of cyberfemism; additionally, Haraway is the first if not only feminist theorist (as far as I know) to point to science fiction (specifically Octavia Butler's work) as further examples of her approach to feminism. My take on those parts was more or less than women of color, with experience moving back and forth between cultures, could offer insights into the kind of feminist theory that H. wanted to create. I also remember a telling section (if not in that chapter, then from somewhere else) about the ethical issues raised by the fact that third world/immigrant women of color were the majority of workers doing the production of computer chips in Silicon Valley and elsewhere, and how white academic feminists never stopped to ask about the economic/production of the computers they were using to write feminist theory. H is hard but well worth taking some time to work through! Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 18:57:56 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Melnjo Subject: March BDG selection Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Well this month I'm really late. No excuses, just profound apologies. - M Dear Discussion Groupies; Should you choose to accept it, your literary mission for March will be; Louise Marley: The Terrorists of Irustan. Discussion will be officially started by the nominator on (or about) the first Monday of March. Enjoy! Mellen For the BDG Volunteers Upcoming Books- 2 April: Elizabeth A. Lynn: The Northern Girl 7 May: Vonda N. McIntyre: The Moon and the Sun 4 June: Nancy Kress: Beggars in Spain *************************************************************************** The BDG provides a forum for focusing discussion on a particular book during a one month period. The books discussed are nominated and chosen in advance by a vote of all members of the FSFFU-L list serve who choose to vote. Start thinking about your nominations now. To quote our list-mistress, "This does not prohibit discussion of the BDG books at other times; nor does it prohibit discussion of non-BDG books." If you have any other questions about the Book Discussion Group (BDG), it's selections, previous discussions or the Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy and Utopias Literature List Serve (FSFFU-L), you can start with the BDG website at; http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304, or the FSFFU-L website at; http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/fsflit/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 23:12:05 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: Taliban Publicly Executes 2 Afghan Women This seems appropriate for the coming BDG discussion of the Terrorists of Irustan. When I posted to another group that we will be discussing this, plus gave the URL for Silent Her a couple of people thought we might be engaging in Muslim bashing. I said no, it was an effort to explore the consequences of a success of the Taliban. We know that those two "prostitutes" could have been any women the Taliban had wanted to designate as such. Joyce Taliban Publicly Executes 2 Afghan Women Hundreds of people gathered at a sports stadium in Afghanistan to witness the public hanging of two Afghan women convicted of prostitution by the Taliban... [Full Story: http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=5294] ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 09:52:58 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Louise Marley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I confess, I haven't read TERRORISTS yet. I did read, and really liked, SING THE LIGHT, which I thought was a particularly strong first novel. Louise is visiting San Diego in a month or so, so maybe with the BDG comments, I'll get a chance to read TERRORISTS before she gets here. :) Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:54:17 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Taliban Publicly Executes 2 Afghan Women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/4/2001 2:13:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, hoop5@LVCM.COM writes: << We know that those two "prostitutes" could have been any women the Taliban had wanted to designate as such. >> Not only is that awful. But the UN only seems to be upset over the destruction of the Buddist statues (which is the only Taliban connected story I can find on/in any major newsites, programs, or newspapers. Chris ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 21:03:11 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Taliban Publicly Executes 2 Afghan Women In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:54 PM 3/4/01 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 3/4/2001 2:13:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, hoop5@LVCM.COM >writes: ><< We know that those two > "prostitutes" could have been any women the Taliban had wanted to designate > as such. > >> >Not only is that awful. But the UN only seems to be upset over the >destruction of the Buddist statues (which is the only Taliban connected story >I can find on/in any major newsites, programs, or newspapers. >Chris I noticed this too when I looked at Yahoo News earlier today. Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 21:41:46 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kimberly Latta Subject: Re: Taliban Publicly Executes 2 Afghan Women MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate more in the recent past--but I've had a hell of a winter. This issue does drive me out of the cyber-shadows. It is an outrage that the news services seem more concerned over the destruction of statues than human lives--but of course, both acts are related and both are unspeakable. It is because science fiction, feminist science fiction in particular, dramatizes such ugliness and ignorance and galvanizes us to take action against it, that I find it so very valuable. But we must do more than simply denounce these acts of stupidity here--I urge all of you to write to your local newspapers. Kimberly Latta ---------- >From: "Jennifer R. J." >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Taliban Publicly Executes 2 Afghan Women >Date: Sun, Mar 4, 2001, 10:03 PM > >At 08:54 PM 3/4/01 -0500, you wrote: >>In a message dated 3/4/2001 2:13:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, hoop5@LVCM.COM >>writes: >><< We know that those two >> "prostitutes" could have been any women the Taliban had wanted to designate >> as such. >> >> >>Not only is that awful. But the UN only seems to be upset over the >>destruction of the Buddist statues (which is the only Taliban connected story >>I can find on/in any major newsites, programs, or newspapers. >>Chris > > I noticed this too when I looked at Yahoo News earlier today. > Jennifer > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > >Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 21:30:29 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: BDG: The Terrorists of Irustan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit About a month or so ago, Oprah had a show which was devoted to atrocities around the world, like genital mutilation and throwing acid in the faces of wives who displease their husbands. It got big press. There was a website which was devoted to this issue. The website had been up for months, gaining little attention and less money. The day after the Oprah show, it had more traffic and donations than it could handle. During one of my regular visits to my doctor, I happened to mention the Oprah incident, and how truly terrifying such ignorance is. My doctor, who is a woman, said something that blew me right out of the water. She remarked that it had been going on for centuries, and people in those countries don't know how awful it is. "The women know," I argued. "No, they don't. Not really." My first reaction to both these incidents was to wonder how anyone could possibly graduate from high school in one of our so-called first-world countries and remain ignorant of this sort of thing. Did this ignorance anger you as much as it did me? And, of course, it is rage that provides the whole motivation for what happens in the book. There is a passage early on in Marley's book where one of the Port Force Longshoremen, gossiping, remarks how bizarrely the men of Irustan treat their women. Jin-Li comments that the women on Irustan live much as they did on Earth before they left it. Jin-Li makes the remark casually, in conversation. It is said before we know that Jin-Li is passing. What did you think when you realized that not even Jin-Li could or would really understand what was really happening on Irustan? What did you think of Zahra's final decision? And, of course, there are all the usual questions: Who was your favorite character? What was your favorite moment? Was the writing to your taste, or full of sand? Consider discussion now open. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 01:11:14 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Taliban Publicly Executes 2 Afghan Women In-Reply-To: <01K0TAVD9KRG91VTWY@SLU.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:41 PM 3/4/01 -0400, you wrote: >But we must do more than simply denounce these acts of stupidity here--I >urge all of you to write to your local newspapers. >Kimberly Latta Done. I also looked on Yahoo's News site and at the news links like Reuters. We could write to them too since none of them seem to be carrying this story. And on the Yahoo Message Boards regarding the Buddha statue story, NO ONE is mentioning the two women executed. Jennifer ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 01:43:25 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: Louise Marley Maryelizabeth wrote: "I confess, I haven't read TERRORISTS yet. I did read, and really liked, SING THE LIGHT, which I thought was a particularly strong first novel. Louise is visiting San Diego in a month or so, so maybe with the BDG comments, I'll get a chance to read TERRORISTS before she gets here." This book is such a quick read you'll zip through it. The style is not the drawing point. Unlike Nights at the Circus there are no passages you'll roll around on your tongue or in your mind in delight at the construction. The plot is the grabber here. Once you start it you won't want to stop. I liked it so much I went right on to The Glass Harmonica. I think the Sing the Light trilogy is next. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 23:29:11 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: BDG: Conqueror's Child -- Religion In-Reply-To: <99.10e1b3a4.27c2ed5c@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:42 PM 2/19/01 -0500, Phoebe Wray wrote: >In a message dated 2/19/01 2:18:46 PM, J. Dawley writes: > ><< What's so depressing, >though, is that it doesn't take too much work for me to imagine the >conditions in the Holdfast becoming reality. Two words: the Taliban. >> > >And two others: Christian Right. I know we've begun discussing *The Terrorists of Irustan*, but this response made me think about the issue of religion in the Holdfast series, so I decided to throw out one more post. And, given my sense of *The Terrorists of Irustan*, it may be appropriate in that context as well. Religion doesn't look good in *The Conqueror's Child*. Alldera, the person in the series who most deserves the designation of protagonist, is deeply suspicious of most metaphysical ideas. The men of the old Holdfast used a much-mutated version of Christianity to enforce their social order, and the results were deadly for fems. Rather than turning the tables with the Moonwoman cult, as so many other fems do, she rejects the new faith as well. To her, it's just more counterproductive superstition. As it was portrayed, it seemed that way to me too. The only spirituality I felt was authentic was the wacked out mythology of Setteo, who at times seemed to be genuinely tapping in to supernatural insight. But even that was perverted by the members of the Bear Cult in *The Conqueror's Child*. All in all, religion comes across as a regrettable tendency of humanity that is too often used as an excuse to engage in abominable behavior. I'm largely in agreement on that score, and have to admit that I felt a stab of satisfaction when Beyarra and Eykar burned the remaining Bibles (not that I would do it in real life -- but hey, this is science fiction!), but it did strike me as a little strange that Alldera, given her upbringing and life-experiences, was such an atheist. I have the impression that atheism is pretty rare in the overall scheme of things, and even more so in stressful environments. How did others feel about this issue? Was spirituality given short shrift? -- Janice, moving on to *The Terrorists of Irustan* once I finish the 2nd book in Dorothy Dunnett's "Lymond Chronicles" (it has occurred to me that if Servan and Eykar were fused in a transporter accident, Lymond might be the result) ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Gomez -- Liquid Skin "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.