From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:50:53 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:36 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0103C" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 16:17:03 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: BDG: The Terrorists of Irustan I finished *The Terrorists of Irustan* yesterday. Like Joyce, I breezed through it. It was a quick, gripping read. The alliances and emotional connections between women were the highlight of the book for me. Zahra's mentoring relationship with Ishi; her protective anguish over the women brought, battered and bleeding, into her surgery; her Doma day gatherings with her longtime friends and the clandestine meetings she arranged at need. I liked how these elements not only illuminated the lives of women on Irustan, but were the building blocks of the plot as well, leading to the revolutionary climax. Men, though impinging on the lives of the women, were not the emotional focus of the book. I might have felt differently about this if I hadn't known from the beginning that Jin-Li was a woman (serves me right for reading spoilers), but I'm glad that there wasn't a heterosexual romance in the book. And I was very moved that as she was dying, Zahra saw neither her husband *nor* Jin-Li, but was embraced by the loving arms of her teacher Nura. An ultimate love that isn't romantic and isn't parental -- amazing! I liked Zahra very much. She was an intelligent and moral person, but no superwoman. The descriptions throughout the novel of her psychological response to her actions -- alternating giddiness, numbness, and exhaustion - - was very well done. And, as others have said, her responses to Qadir were complex and convincing. I winced whenever he called her to his room, but she reacted in a practical way that avoided making a scene but still preserved her dignity. She would have sex, but not pretend to like it. The fact that Qadir never seemed to notice her lack of interest made me feel ill. I really didn't like him. It's true that he didn't beat Zahra, and that within certain bounds he genuinely seemed to care for her, but the ease with which he could stop listening and "put his foot down" made it clear that he was fundamentally just another oppressive patriarch. I'm one who found his turnaround at the end implausible, not just on a character level, but on a societal level as well. How could he take a jackhammer to the bedrock of his society and remain in his position as director? And if he could do it after Zahra's death, why couldn't he have done it *before* and saved her life? Not that I would have wanted to cut Zahra's death scene -- like Joyce, I found it a very powerful moment. I just wonder if it was really necessary to the plot. Jin-Li seemed like a Maureen McHugh character. I liked her brisk, competent personality and enjoyed the romantic tension between her and Zahra. However, I was bothered by the author's trick of letting readers assume she was male, pronouns cleverly withheld until the revelation, then blithely used for the rest of the story. Having been "spoiled" beforehand, I wasn't tricked, but on principle I object. And, as the book came to an end, Jin- Li's plot line just fizzled, leaving me wondering what the overall point was. An example to Zahra of how different women can be outside the constraints of Irustani culture? Or how much they have in common? Near the end of the book, Jin-Li said, "Irustan, Hong Kong -- it's all the same," but I find the parallel questionable at best. It was my impression that back in Hong Kong, Jin-Li was constrained mostly by her family's poverty, not by her sex. She did say that the streets were more dangerous for women than men, but fear of crime is *not* the same as being officially viewed as a non-person by the state, denied mobility and even the right to speak. I don't know whether to think that Jin-Li is very naive, or so in love that she's not thinking straight... or that the author wasn't quite sure what to do with her. I liked her. I just wished she had been integrated into the overall story a bit better. My biggest concern about the book was the representation of Islam. Since the book is so transparently based on fanatical sects like The Taliban, I was left wondering how much research the author had actually done on Islam. The take on the veils, for example, seemed a particularly Western one -- that they are a denial of personhood and freedom, rather than shields or equalizers of women. Contrast the character of Katmer Al-Shei in Sarah Zettel's *Fool's War*, who, though a star-ship captain, still wears a hijab veil and prays to Allah twice a day. Of course, Al-Shei's future version of Islam is much less strict than the one on Irustan -- to some extent she can pick and choose what elements of tradition she will observe. But the contrast in representations still gives me the feeling that Marley is making some negative assumptions about Islam that happen to support her argument. I think it would have been really interesting if the character of Jin-Li had also been a Muslim, perhaps of a much more relaxed variety -- that way we could have gotten a more rounded view on a religion that is commonly misunderstood by insular, largely Christian, Americans. Still and all, I enjoyed the book and am happy to have read it. It didn't say anything particularly new to me, but it did take on a serious subject with admirable gravity. The other day I found the author's web site (http://www.sff.net/people/LMarley/) and learned that she is an opera singer and that all of her other novels have focused on music to some extent. I wonder what prompted her to write this one? ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT Feminist SF Posting Archive at: http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/femsf-index.htm Listening to: Gomez -- Liquid Skin "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:54:44 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Deborah A. Oosterhouse" Subject: Re: BDG: The Terrorists of Irustan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janice E. Dawley wrote: > I finished *The Terrorists of Irustan* yesterday. Like Joyce, I breezed > through it. It was a quick, gripping read. > > The alliances and emotional connections between women were the highlight of > the book for me. Zahra's mentoring relationship with Ishi; her protective > anguish over the women brought, battered and bleeding, into her surgery; > her Doma day gatherings with her longtime friends and the clandestine > meetings she arranged at need. I liked how these elements not only > illuminated the lives of women on Irustan, but were the building blocks of > the plot as well, leading to the revolutionary climax. Men, though > impinging on the lives of the women, were not the emotional focus of the > book. I might have felt differently about this if I hadn't known from the > beginning that Jin-Li was a woman (serves me right for reading spoilers), > but I'm glad that there wasn't a heterosexual romance in the book. And I > was very moved that as she was dying, Zahra saw neither her husband *nor* > Jin-Li, but was embraced by the loving arms of her teacher Nura. An > ultimate love that isn't romantic and isn't parental -- amazing! I don't think I would agree completely that the relationship between Nura and Zahra was not parental, at least in some respect. There isn't really a whole lot of information presented on their relationship because Nura is already dead by the time the events of *Terrorists* take place. However, if one extrapolates from the relationship between Zahra and Ishi, Zahra probably came to live with Nura at a very young age and became a surrogate child to her during her medical training. I can't remember if there was any information in *Terrorists* about Zahra's birth mother. On the other hand, I would agree that the various relationships among the women were definitely a highlight of the book and one of the things I enjoyed most about it. > > The fact that Qadir never seemed to notice her lack of interest made me > feel ill. I really didn't like him. It's true that he didn't beat Zahra, > and that within certain bounds he genuinely seemed to care for her, but the > ease with which he could stop listening and "put his foot down" made it > clear that he was fundamentally just another oppressive patriarch. I'm one > who found his turnaround at the end implausible, not just on a character > level, but on a societal level as well. How could he take a jackhammer to > the bedrock of his society and remain in his position as director? And if > he could do it after Zahra's death, why couldn't he have done it *before* > and saved her life? Not that I would have wanted to cut Zahra's death > scene -- like Joyce, I found it a very powerful moment. I just wonder if it > was really necessary to the plot. I think I found Qadir's "conversion" plausible simply because he could think both ways. Others of the men, such as his secretary who wanted to marry Ishi (can't remember his name), could be ONLY oppressive patriarchs and couldn't appreciate any sign of intelligence or strength in a woman. I think Zahra's death was necessary to the plot because it is the most obvious way to show commitment to something that one believes is important--she was willing to own up to what she did and take the punishment that was meted out to her. Her death galvanized the women who came to mourn her, as well as Qadir. > > My biggest concern about the book was the representation of Islam. Since > the book is so transparently based on fanatical sects like The Taliban, I > was left wondering how much research the author had actually done on Islam. > The take on the veils, for example, seemed a particularly Western one -- > that they are a denial of personhood and freedom, rather than shields or > equalizers of women. Contrast the character of Katmer Al-Shei in Sarah > Zettel's *Fool's War*, who, though a star-ship captain, still wears a hijab > veil and prays to Allah twice a day. Of course, Al-Shei's future version of > Islam is much less strict than the one on Irustan -- to some extent she can > pick and choose what elements of tradition she will observe. But the > contrast in representations still gives me the feeling that Marley is > making some negative assumptions about Islam that happen to support her > argument. I think it would have been really interesting if the character > of Jin-Li had also been a Muslim, perhaps of a much more relaxed variety -- > that way we could have gotten a more rounded view on a religion that is > commonly misunderstood by insular, largely Christian, Americans. I was also uncomfortable with this aspect of the book. It sort of bothered me that Marley is of European descent and no mention was made of any sort of research into or experience with Middle Eastern cultures or religions. All of the men in the book seemed to buy into the same beliefs to greater or lesser extent--even Zahra's assistant (whose name I can't remember either) who was excluded from most male priviledge because of his deformed leg. He saw more value in women than most of the other men, but largely because he was closer to them on the social ladder. Deborah ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 17:57:11 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: BDG: The Terrorists of Irustan In-Reply-To: <200103172217.QAA56992@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII as always, janice does an excellent job of discussing the material ... a couple of responses i had below. On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > I finished *The Terrorists of Irustan* yesterday. Like Joyce, I breezed > through it. It was a quick, gripping read. > > I liked Zahra very much. She was an intelligent and moral person, but no > superwoman. The descriptions throughout the novel of her psychological > response to her actions -- alternating giddiness, numbness, and exhaustion - > - was very well done. And, as others have said, her responses to Qadir were > complex and convincing. I winced whenever he called her to his room, but > she reacted in a practical way that avoided making a scene but still > preserved her dignity. She would have sex, but not pretend to like it. > > The fact that Qadir never seemed to notice her lack of interest made me > feel ill. I really didn't like him. It's true that he didn't beat Zahra, > and that within certain bounds he genuinely seemed to care for her, but the > ease with which he could stop listening and "put his foot down" made it > clear that he was fundamentally just another oppressive patriarch. I'm one > who found his turnaround at the end implausible, not just on a character > level, but on a societal level as well. How could he take a jackhammer to > the bedrock of his society and remain in his position as director? And if > he could do it after Zahra's death, why couldn't he have done it *before* > and saved her life? Not that I would have wanted to cut Zahra's death > scene -- like Joyce, I found it a very powerful moment. I just wonder if it > was really necessary to the plot. i actually found Qadir to be rather believable -- at least until his conversion. i think he was intended to exemplify the liberal male in a patriarchal society. we've all known them: the sensitive guys who are still complicit and do not fully reject their gender privilege. one doesn't want to call them sexist -- no, no, he's not sexist, that's just the way he is -- but at the same time "the way he is" is that way because of gender privilege, yes? Qadir is that same pattern, in a different society. the novel was rather slim. that's not a fault, but at the same time, the length made it harder to include as much depth as one might like. so, as far as i could tell, we had about two types of men. one: the full patriarchal abuser. two: the sensitive guy (who nonetheless benefits and does not fully reject the patriarchal norms). > Jin-Li seemed like a Maureen McHugh character. I liked her brisk, competent excellent observation. > My biggest concern about the book was the representation of Islam. Since > the book is so transparently based on fanatical sects like The Taliban, I > was left wondering how much research the author had actually done on Islam. yes, and yes to the comments below as well. there is always that risk i think when one seeks to criticize elements of someone else's culture. are we critiquing it unfairly because we don't fully understand it? because we don't get it? racist? on the other hand, as an ardent secularist / atheist, i feel free to critique the religion in which i was raised. and yes i do critique other religions & cultural traditions, and religions on general. but when you're critiquing someone else's stuff, i think it has to be done very consciously, and very carefully. i would love to hear from someone with an Islamic background & get their perspective on it. that said, i don't think Marley did a bad job. i think that yeah it does have some of the same feel as Tepper's work: a strong, relevant, useful, important -- but *simple* -- critique of those elements of the judeo-christian-islamic religious tradition that particularly affront a western feminist's eye. > The take on the veils, for example, seemed a particularly Western one -- > that they are a denial of personhood and freedom, rather than shields or > equalizers of women. Contrast the character of Katmer Al-Shei in Sarah > Zettel's *Fool's War*, who, though a star-ship captain, still wears a hijab > veil and prays to Allah twice a day. Of course, Al-Shei's future version of > Islam is much less strict than the one on Irustan -- to some extent she can the contrast with FOOL'S WAR is a nice one. what i noticed in FW, however, was an absence of gender-oriented critique. so Islam played a very different role in that book. i'm not sure what role. i have no idea, for instance, if zettel has an Islamic background or not, but the use of an Islamic character was a nice bit of "exoticization" for Western sf readers, right? there is a similar question that can be raised with both marley & zettel: what function does Islam play in the novel in creating a sense of "otherness" for a sf readership that is historically judeo-christian? i think that Islam is in marley's work BECAUSE in part it is "other," either for the author or the readership or both. and although i don't know zettel's intention in FOOL'S WAR, i suspect that at least one impact it had on this mainstream Anglo audience was to exoticize the character. we haven't seen a lot of sf that does a good job with religion, period. and we certainly haven't seen the sf that does a good job with religion & gender, in my opinion. but at least we're seeing sf that is getting there. that's what marley & zettel & tepper have been doing, i think: getting there. but i would suggest they're not there yet. > pick and choose what elements of tradition she will observe. But the > contrast in representations still gives me the feeling that Marley is > making some negative assumptions about Islam that happen to support her > argument. I think it would have been really interesting if the character > of Jin-Li had also been a Muslim, perhaps of a much more relaxed variety -- > that way we could have gotten a more rounded view on a religion that is > commonly misunderstood by insular, largely Christian, Americans. Laura Quilter ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 02:42:06 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG: The Terrorists of Irustan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/17/01 8:57:35 PM, Janice E. Dawley wrote: << > My biggest concern about the book was the representation of Islam. Since > the book is so transparently based on fanatical sects like The Taliban, I > was left wondering how much research the author had actually done on Islam. >> I didn't have a problem with this. She wasn't discussing Islam, just one aspect of it -- the Taliban. I didn't think she had an obligation to water that down by showing other kinds of Islamic beliefs. There are still people out there who don't know what the Taliban is, so I say more power to her for her focus. best, phoebe w ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:40:05 -0800 Reply-To: allyshaw@earthlink.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: BDG Terrorists Of Irustan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all-- I want to thank whoever recommended this book. I really enjoyed it-- was spell bound, as others were. The complex relationships, as others pointed out, were the most fascinating aspects of the novel for me. The character of Jin Li was a wonderful "in" for the western woman reader in that we could see "both sides" (the boy's club of power we supposably have access to, as well as gender oppression) and empathize with the dissonance of being treated "equal" (I'm using this word ironically) with men, while women around us (in the world in other communities, etc.) are oppressed more severely or in other ways. I also thought the use of quotes in front of the chapters was effective at paralleling how the capitalist Port Force controlled Jin Li's life, and Fundamentalism controlled the women of Irustan. In both cases their gender was used to silence and control them. I think it makes an argument that here in the US (though the Christian fundamentalists hold a scary amount of sway, especially with the current administration.) people often claim moral high ground and point to Saudi Arabia, etc. for gender oppression, congratulating the US for being so far ahead in women's issues. But this book seemed to argue, to me, that capitalism has it's own doctrines which are as "fundamentalist" as any religious doctrine. I wanted to respond to something Joyce wrote: > Lastly, I really liked her death. It was so "Brazil". I think death in the > cells would be like that rather than the agony that the Irustani threatened. > Having witnessed a few deaths, they have seemed to be transcendent positive > experiences for the dying person. Any book with good birth scenes and/or > good death scenes, like Conqueror's Child, gets my money every time. > I agree that the death was well written, but I have to say deep inside I was hoping she would not be martyred, and I was in suspense the whole time, even as she was dying-- I was hoping for a last minute rescue. I think that says more about me than any fault of the book-- and more about why I read. I just finished reading The Binding Chair by Kathryn Harrison and SPOILER----!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! * * * * I was so upset by the character's death at the end-- a 19th century novel kind of death-- when a woman breaks the mold she must die so order can be restored. So reading the Harrison novel so disappointed me, I wasn't ready for another death, though the deaths in both books were so different. I wanted the romance between Jin Li and Zarha to flourish, I wanted them to find some amazing outpost of women and live and fight. But that would have been a different book completely, a weaker book probably. --Allyson -- Die Cast Garden: http://www.diecastgarden.org A Weekly Sestina: http://www.diecastgarden.org/weeklysestina/index.html Editor's Picks at Web Del Sol: http://webdelsol.com/f-epicks.htm English 1 Home Page: http://www3.lbcc.cc.ca.us/coursepages/eng1as ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:14:39 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Terrorists Of Irustan Great discussion recently. I can understand that one would be concerned about a possible anti-Muslim stance of Terrorists. I do think it is anti-Taliban rather than anti-Muslim, but I have to confess, I'm wouldn't be too concerned if it were anti-Muslim. As Laura mentions, Sherri Tepper writes anti fundamentalist Christian novels that have the same bent. Should all Christians be offended by them? Maybe, maybe not. I think that patriarchal religions, no matter how delicate they might seem, are the antithesis of feminism. It seems to me a woman would have to compartmentalize differing beliefs to accept both. I like Allyson's statement regarding the quotations from the Offworld Port Force Terms of Employment: "But this book seemed to argue, to me, that capitalism has it's own doctrines which are as "fundamentalist" as any religious doctrine." Right. Do you think Marley was trying to show that the anti-woman stance of the Irustani was the same as the inhumane stance of the Port Force Authority? Under capitalism humans don't matter, profits do. How do we achieve maximum profits? There has to be some way to have the workers under complete control -- a strong motivational drug works. Didn't Marx say religion was the opiate of the masses? (Does the idea of faith based initiatives come in here?) Maybe this wasn't an anti-Taliban book. Maybe it's an anti World Trade Organization novel. Oh, oh, better watch out who sees you buy it. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:09:43 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG Terrorists Of Irustan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/21/01 3:17:06 AM, hoop5@LVCM.COM writes: << Maybe this wasn't an anti-Taliban book. Maybe it's an anti World Trade Organization novel. Oh, oh, better watch out who sees you buy it. >> heh heh... Anti-Taliban certainly. Anti-Islam? A fiction writer isn't under an obligation to be *fair*. best, phoebe w ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:28:34 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: ILLICIT PASSAGE progress report Comments: To: Fem-SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I heard from Alice/Alison a few days ago, and the copies are on their (slow) way from Australia to Mysterious Galaxy. Will let everyone who requested a copy know directly as well as by announcing on the lists when they arrive! Pax, Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.