From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:50:56 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:36 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0103D" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:28:03 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kristina Solheim Subject: Re: BDG Terrorists Of Irustan In-Reply-To: <3AABA420.488DD6BE@wmis.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:13 AM 3/11/2001 -0500, Deborah wrote: >I also liked the rather hopeful note on which the book ended. Although >recognizing that problems will still exist and they have a long struggle >ahead of >them, the women take the first steps in freeing themselves. It was also >very cool >that Zahra's husband finally came to realize the problems of their society and >what Zahra had been trying to do. This is exactly what made me not like Terrorists of Irustan. It was like a sitcom trying to delve into a serious issue and trying to tie it all up prettily in thirty minutes. I wish Marley had taken the situation in Afghanistan more seriously in the novel. It is such a terrible situation, I wish she hadn't ended it the way she did. It's like using "magic" or some other literary device to overcome a situation you are uncomfortable in. Maybe I'm the only one on this list that didn't like the book because of the ending. I think it's great that we can get books like this one published, but I think Marley fell under the spell of fantasy (like Tepper in _The Fresco_ or _Gibbon's Decline and Fall_) and "solved" this issue simply (in my opinion, betraying her characters' natures) instead of really tackling it and finding ways to make a difference (like education) in real life. I went on to read _The Glass Harmonica_ and didn't find a lot of meaning in that one either. Just a love story with a historical twist. ciao! Kristina ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 12:52:52 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG Terrorists Of Irustan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/26/01 12:28:32 PM, solheimk@STANFORD.EDU writes: << Maybe I'm the only one on this list that didn't like the book because of the ending. >> I was disappointed in the ending. I didn't believe it, and it felt like a cop-out. Yes, there was a kind of thrill when the women unveiled -- challenged the status quo, but I didn't accept the idea that a real revolution had begun. best, phoebe w ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 10:58:52 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kristina Solheim Subject: Re: BDG Terrorists Of Irustan In-Reply-To: <45.42664db.27f0dbf4@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:52 PM 3/26/2001 -0500, Phoebe wrote: >I was disappointed in the ending. I didn't believe it, and it felt like a >cop-out. EXACTLY! Cop-out is the perfect word for how betrayed I felt as a reader. Her characters were so lovingly complex and interesting for the most part. But the conversion of her husband's character into thinking this very liberal viewpoint was unbelievable. I think, when we create science fiction, we need to make it believable and draw upon real accounts of this kind of oppression to show the reader that these horrible things are ongoing and need to be addressed. Men who grow up being indoctrinated into that kind of society wouldn't be very quick to change their ways. Try arguing anything with a fundamentalist Christian. The religion has all the "answers" built right in. There's no way for them to step outside the box and see with other eyes. I was struck by a comment by another listmember earlier when she said that even in America we women do not feel safe walking around unescorted. I had thought that the situation in Afghanistan is such a localized occurance of oppression and that we in America are so much more enlightened and wise. Boy was I wrong! Though we are a little further down the evolutionary ladder, we are still required to "veil" ourselves, get a male escort to go out of doors, and are discouraged from working in "male" jobs. Thank you, whichever of you mentioned that. ciao! Kristina ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 13:19:27 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: BDG Dress (from Terrorists of I) In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20010326105214.01a1e7a0@solheimk.pobox.stanford.ed u> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >I was struck by a comment by another listmember earlier when she said that >even in America we women do not feel safe walking around unescorted. I had >thought that the situation in Afghanistan is such a localized occurance of >oppression and that we in America are so much more enlightened and >wise. Boy was I wrong! Though we are a little further down the >evolutionary ladder, we are still required to "veil" ourselves, get a male >escort to go out of doors, and are discouraged from working in "male" >jobs. Thank you, whichever of you mentioned that. > >ciao! >Kristina > >- Not to mention the fact that Arab and Arab-American feminists have written about mainstream American's (mostly but not solely white) feminists' tendency to see the veils and other dress requirements as "oppressive" while seeing their own dress choices as "free" and signifying individual choice. To paraphrase (it's been a few years since I read these essays, so I'm vastly oversimplifying, but I found reading them an enlightening experience), an outsider might look at American women and say: oh these poor women, forced to bare their legs in public, to wear tight clothes that reveal their body to men, to have to wear makeup (and remember, some women have been fired from some jobs for refusing to wear makeup) and "style" their hair, to always be on public view and to be seen by men as sexual objects. This perspective, aligned with rape statistics in America, casts doubt on the easy idea that "American women" are free while women in other cultures are oppressed. So, has anybody done an analysis of how women characters in sf dress? As Deborah Tannen wrote in an excellent op-ed piece once, no matter how a woman dresses she is "marked," that is, her attire is "read" for meanings regarding her sexual identity, status, availability, etc. And since I've gotten tenure, I wear panty hose a LOT less often! Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 14:24:57 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG Dress (from Terrorists of I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/26/01 2:19:47 PM, Robin_Reid@TAMU-COMMERCE.EDU writes: << And since I've gotten tenure, I wear panty hose a LOT less often! >> Zowie! Thanks for that! smiling, phoebe w ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 15:19:01 -0800 Reply-To: allyshaw@earthlink.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: BDG Dress (from Terrorists of I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1F6912CBCFFF0BA9DE151C26" --------------1F6912CBCFFF0BA9DE151C26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin wrote: > So, has anybody done an analysis of how women characters in sf dress? > This is a great question. I was really struck by the way people dressed in Philip K. Dick's Ubik. Totally over the top and weird. T-shirts that said weird things and shorts and cowboy boots, etc. I wish I had the book in front of me to give you some quotes. It's too much. I don't think it played a big thematic role in the book , though. And the masks and costumes in The Snow Queen and the Summer Queen were interesting-- added to the grand scale of the narrative. I also remember some of the clothes (or, actually manufactured, projected "presences") of some of the girls in William Gibson's Idoru being interesting. I'm writing notes to a novel right now and am finding that clothing is playing a big part in describing the society, the mood of the place at this certain time. --Allyson -- Die Cast Garden: http://www.diecastgarden.org A Weekly Sestina: http://www.diecastgarden.org/weeklysestina/index.html Editor's Picks at Web Del Sol: http://webdelsol.com/f-epicks.htm English 1 Home Page: http://www3.lbcc.cc.ca.us/coursepages/eng1as --------------1F6912CBCFFF0BA9DE151C26 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin wrote: 
So, has anybody done an analysis of how women characters in sf dress?


This is a great question.  I was really struck by the way people dressed in Philip K. Dick's Ubik.  Totally over the top and weird.  T-shirts that said weird things and shorts and cowboy boots, etc.   I wish I had the book in front of me to give you some quotes.   It's too much.  I don't think it played a big thematic role in the book , though.

 And the masks and costumes in The Snow Queen and the Summer Queen were interesting-- added to the grand scale of the narrative.

I also remember some of the clothes (or, actually manufactured, projected "presences") of some of the girls in William Gibson's Idoru being interesting.

I'm writing notes to a novel right now and am finding that clothing is playing a big part in describing the society, the mood of the place at this certain time.

--Allyson
-- Die Cast Garden: http://www.diecastgarden.org
A Weekly Sestina: http://www.diecastgarden.org/weeklysestina/index.html
Editor's Picks at Web Del Sol: http://webdelsol.com/f-epicks.htm
English 1 Home Page: http://www3.lbcc.cc.ca.us/coursepages/eng1as --------------1F6912CBCFFF0BA9DE151C26-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 18:54:12 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Deborah Biancotti Subject: Re: BDG Dress and The Birthgrave MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CF_01C0B6EF.50064100" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CF_01C0B6EF.50064100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robin wrote:=20 So, has anybody done an analysis of how women characters in sf dress? And Allyson added: And the masks and costumes in The Snow Queen and the Summer Queen were = interesting-- added to the grand scale of the narrative.=20 The mask was also a wonderful element in Tanith Lee's "The Birthgrave". = The heroine couldn't move anywhere without hers, because she was so = hideous and couldn't stand the fear people displayed when they saw her = face. The mask, then, was liberating. She could move about, she could = join a gang, she could fight 'like a man', she could realise her = strengths. There's that wonderful line where she compares herself to one = of her male counterparts, and says "what he could break, I could bend" - = and it's a positive statement, because there are things she can do = better than him. SPOILER ALERT But by the end we realise she wasn't incapacitated by extreme ugliness, = but extreme beauty. The mask works for equally well for both = afflictions. I loved the idea that in a world where oppression is sexual = in nature, sexual attractiveness is actually a burden.=20 Hence, the liberation of the mask.=20 Regards, Deborah Biancotti ------=_NextPart_000_00CF_01C0B6EF.50064100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
Robin wrote:=20 
So, has anybody done an analysis of how =
women characters in sf dress?


And Allyson added:

And the masks and costumes in The Snow Queen and the Summer Queen = were=20 interesting-- added to the grand scale of the narrative.=20

 

The mask was also a wonderful element in Tanith Lee's "The = Birthgrave". The=20 heroine couldn't move anywhere without hers, because she was so hideous = and=20 couldn't stand the fear people displayed when they saw her face. = The mask,=20 then, was liberating. She could move about, she could join a gang, she = could=20 fight 'like a man', she could realise her strengths. There's that = wonderful line=20 where she compares herself to one of her male counterparts, and = says "what=20 he could break, I could bend" - and it's a positive statement, because = there are=20 things she can do better than him.

SPOILER ALERT

But by the end we realise she wasn't incapacitated by = extreme=20 ugliness, but extreme beauty. The mask works for equally well for both=20 afflictions. I loved the idea that in a world where oppression is sexual = in=20 nature, sexual attractiveness is actually a burden.

Hence, the liberation of the mask.

 

Regards,

Deborah Biancotti

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