From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:50:59 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:36 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0104A" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:08:24 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Terrorists of Irustan I was surprised that some of you thought the "happy" ending of Terrorists meant that the gender apartheid was fixed and women and men would live happily ever after. I didn't think this at all. I saw the women's removing their veils as the fist big public step taken in a movement toward gaining their freedom. I don't think the scene meant that their freedom had been accomplished. In fact I think it likely that some of the women who bravely stood up for themselves might well have been beaten for it later. Private steps lead to public steps but it take many more than one to accomplish a revolution. How many times did Gandhi have to fast, how many marches did he have to lead before the Brits left India to Indian rule? How many sit ins and marches did it take before integration was accomplished in the US? How many demonstrations has it taken to get the equal rights amendment passed? Demonstrate though we may in large and small ways, it's still not here. I saw the book chronically a beginning of a movement, not an end. I saw Qadir as a man who had thought himself benevolent and cultured and had his eyes opened by his wife's willingness to sacrifice herself for freedom. Yes, I do think such things can happen, but they don't start on a large scale. He was one man, as the struggle went on more would follow. The ending was a beginning, and I don't think it any more irrational than any beginning of a revolution. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 22:28:35 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: BDG: The Northen Girl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It's April and time to discuss *The Northern Girl* by Elizabeth Lynn. What struck me most about this book was its style. Short, blunt sentences; an absence of narrative emotion; a focus on everyday life as well as "big" events. When I first read it, over ten years ago, I found it hard to concentrate on what was happening in the story because it didn't follow the conventions of flow and emphasis that I was familiar with. As a result, I remembered almost nothing of its events. If I had I wouldn't have quoted the misleading blurb from the current edition's back cover in my nomination message: "a humble girl will become part of a revolution in which the common people will find the courage to stand up to tyranny..." Not quite. But I guess a blurb about what really happens in the book might not be exciting enough to get someone to buy it. What does happen? Sorren does chores, plays drums for her employer's scheming brother, becomes friends with a drunken wreck, and avoids the people who may be able to help her develop her psychic talent. At the end she leaves her lover in the city to travel to a dilapidated keep in the frozen north. Not exactly riveting. Then why do I like it so much? It comes back to the berries. The one image that stuck with me from my first reading of the book was that of Arré eating a bowl of berries. Having just finished it for the second time, the image seems trivial, but in another way a perfect distillation of what makes Lynn's style unique. Arré is one of the most important figures in her world's political landscape. Her wranglings with the Council and concern over the machinations of her brother, the Tanjo and the Ismeninas take up much of her time. Yet the details of her daily routine and her small satisfactions feel just as important. She is real to me in a way that many other SF and fantasy protagonists aren't. I'm curious what other people thought of the book. Were you bored? Confused? Transfixed? Discussion is open! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Gomez -- Liquid Skin "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 22:27:46 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Re: BDG: The Northen Girl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read the trilogy when it first came out, twenty years ago, and loved them. I saved the paperbacks all this time. Imagine my surprise when, upon rereading it this past month, the cover crumbled to pieces as I read. Ha, books. Twenty years ago, it was still novel to find a book where one woman was a major mover and shaker in her community. I, too, was entranced by the little details of daily life sprinkled in and among the political machinations. I was also entranced by the casual acceptance same-sex love had in the book. The one line I remember being shocked and delighted with was when someone says to Sorren, "I thought you were spoken for." Her reply: "I AM spoken for." I was also, at the time, studying martial arts. Our school practiced a blend that was about 50% shotokan karate, 35% aikido, and 15% judo. The concept that the book had of soldiering evolving from the dance was very aikido-like, and thoroughly delightful. Although I remembered practically nothing from my original reading, I liked the book very much this time around, too. Plus, it had all that nostalgia. Thanks. BTW...wwhat are we reading the next two months? I've forgotten. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:49:18 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: BDG NORTHERN GIRL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I didn't have time to reread NORTHERN GIRL as I hoped. But boy was I pleased when this series came back in print a few years ago. DANCERS OF ARUN remains my favorite of the three, but I find that even if I have lost the details, Lynn's work still resonates with me years later. I think part of the experience was this is the first time I remember reading fantasy which made me feel I could be a part of that world, instead of it feeling insubstantial, or like a fairy tale. Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:31:59 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: BDG NORTHERN GIRL In-Reply-To: <200104050101.tcnv0v.qtr.37kbi1o@niles.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > I didn't have time to reread NORTHERN GIRL as I hoped. But boy was I > pleased when this series came back in print a few years ago. DANCERS > OF ARUN remains my favorite of the three, but I find that even if I > have lost the details, Lynn's work still resonates with me years > later. I think part of the experience was this is the first time I > remember reading fantasy which made me feel I could be a part of that > world, instead of it feeling insubstantial, or like a fairy tale. Very much agreed, all three books felt like they were set in a very real and detailed world, populated by complex and multi- dimensional characters. Then again, Lynn wrote lots of SF, and I have found that SF writers often write far better and more detailed fantasy worlds than writers who only write fantasy (likely because there is a lot more world-building in SF). I didn't like The Northern Girl quite as much as the Dancer's of Arun, but the political and social details were both fascinating and very real. However, rereading that book once again made me sad that Lynn stopped writing for so many years, and that now that she's started again she's writing wretched piles of awfulness like _Dragon Winter_. As a previous poster mentions, some of the social details struck me very differently in rereading. Back then, I'd only seen that sort of causal acceptance of homosexuality in a very few books, and gay rights was a somewhat new and tentative topic in the popular media. I was both surprised and happy to find these sorts of ideas when reading any of Lynn's work. Now, in fiction at least, non- homophobic societies are quite common. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 07:56:08 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: BDG: The Northern Girl In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 05 Apr 2001 00:01:17 CDT." <200104050501.BAA06118@alum.mit.edu> I read this book ages ago off my mother's bookshelf; I think I must have been about twelve. Even at the time I was struck by the little pieces of everyday life, the discussions of what fish to get and which if they didn't have it and what Arre would think if she didn't get either. But I was really blown away by the pronouns, the usage of "she" as an indefinite pronoun. I still remember my feeling of shock when someone said "Get someone to do such-and-such a job, and make sure she's smart" and I realized that it was not a woman-only job ("Talk to the child's mother and make sure she's..."). I'm not sure I've seen it anywhere else--certainly not so casually, in a book that's not self-consciously experimental. Jessie ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 21:51:34 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: What Books? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What books are we reading next two months? ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 01:02:39 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Point of Dreams (was BDG: The Northern Girl) In-Reply-To: <200104060101.tcqjco.6n8.37kbi2i@kendall.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: > I read this book ages ago off my mother's bookshelf; I think I must > have been about twelve. Even at the time I was struck by the little > pieces of everyday life, the discussions of what fish to get and which > if they didn't have it and what Arre would think if she didn't get > either. But I was really blown away by the pronouns, the usage of > "she" as an indefinite pronoun. I still remember my feeling of shock > when someone said "Get someone to do such-and-such a job, and make > sure she's smart" and I realized that it was not a woman-only job > ("Talk to the child's mother and make sure she's..."). I'm not sure > I've seen it anywhere else--certainly not so casually, in a book > that's not self-consciously experimental. Melissa Scott's two recent novels written with Lisa Barnett: Point of Hopes and Point of Dreams are fantasy novels set in a matriarchal world, and the fact that it's a matriarchy is neither a central plot point, nor anything that is ever stated outright, it is simply a feature of daily life, including pronouns used in this fashion. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 16:46:48 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: What Books? In-Reply-To: <3ACD5964.286CAD8F@cdsnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:51 PM 4/5/01 -0800, Sharon Anderson wrote: >What books are we reading next two months? 5/7/01 The Moon and the Sun, by Vonda N. McIntyre 6/4/01 Beggars in Spain, by Nancy Kress Within the next month we should be selecting the next set of books for discussion. For updated info and past discussion archives, visit the BDG web site at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Gomez -- Liquid Skin "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 23:08:32 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: BDG: The Northern Girl In-Reply-To: <200104051156.HAA05639@dragon.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:56 AM 4/5/01 -0400, Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: >I was really blown away by the pronouns, the usage of "she" as an >indefinite pronoun. I still remember my feeling of shock when someone >said "Get someone to do such-and-such a job, and make sure she's smart" >and I realized that it was not a woman-only job ("Talk to the child's >mother and make sure she's..."). I'm not sure I've seen it anywhere >else--certainly not so casually, in a book that's not self-consciously >experimental. Yes, I liked it too. Lynn pulls off a lot of ground breaking material by simply stating that something is so without explaining why or how. She also implies a lot without explicitly stating it. For instance, Paxe's reaction to her son's attempted rape of Sorren struck me at first as blaming the victim, or at least as being very callous. Just when Sorren needed support, Paxe began avoiding her. But as I read on and thought about the unquestioned power of women in Arun, I decided that maybe Paxe has no concept of "woman as victim". She makes sure that Sorren is physically all right and that is enough, because there isn't all the emotional baggage that comes along with sexual assault in our culture. Looked at this way, her behavior is still a bit self-involved, but not nearly as bad as I first thought. And later on Ricard is shown to have changed for the better -- unusual for a would-be rapist in fiction. What did other people think of Lynn's treatment of this episode? ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Gomez -- Liquid Skin "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.