From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:51:22 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:38 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0105B" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 01:18:19 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG The Moon and The Son The book this month is Vonda McIntyre's The Moon and the Son. Here are some reviews on the web: http://www.theromancereader.com/mcintyre-moon.html http://home.golden.net/~csp/reviews/moon&sun.htm http://www.paintedrock.com/memvis/reviews/general/aug97.htm#anchor419674 http://www.sfsite.com/10b/moon19.htm http://www.urbanophile.com/arenn/sf/reviews/moon-and-the-sun.html http://www.twilighttimes.com/reviews.html#moonandsun http://hometown.aol.com/EAlexG/bests.htm http://www.simegen.com/reviews/rereadablebooks/columns/0598.html Vonda N. McIntyre - Bibliography Summary http://www.sfsite.com/isfdb-bin/exact_author.cgi?Vonda_N._McIntyre web page http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda/ from my favorite review, by Catherine Asaro: http://www.sfsite.com/01b/moon49.htm "McIntyre's achievement goes deeper than simply telling a story. She gives a well-rendered depiction of why the accomplishments of women throughout history have often gone unacknowledged. Marie-Josephe manages to attain a measure of success because she works day and night, often going without sleep, so she can complete her duties as a lady-in-waiting while fulfilling her obligations to her brother and the King. It is a bruising schedule no one could keep up for long. However, it would have made no difference how great her talent or dedication if she never had the chance to pursue her work in the first place, or to receive the acknowledgment she earned. She succeeds also because she has the support of the King of France -- an ally few people can claim. The Moon and the Sun evokes a question as valid today as in the court of Louis XIV: How much has been lost to our world, throughout history, because women have been denied, either explicitly or through social strictures, the chance to realize their potential?" ------------- The Moon and the Son is an alternative history novel focusing on Marie-Josephe de la Croix, a Michelangelo type genius gifted in music, drawing, mathematics, and science, an orphan who for some time resided in a very restrictive convent , sister of Father Yves de la Croix a Jesuit priest and natural philosopher. Acting as an agent of Louis IV, the Sun King, Yves kidnaps Sherzad the sea woman, and her male friend in the quest for organs of eternal life. Marie-Josephe's job, in addition to that of lady in waiting at court, is to tame the sea woman and document Yves dissection of the rotting body of her friend. Gradually Marie-Josephe realizes that Sherzad is another form of human and must fight and plot to return her to the sea. Her motives seem to be equally based on the desire for freedom for her friend and the fear that if the king eats her flesh to gain immortality he will commit a mortal sin. During the course of the story Marie-Josephe develops a crush on the Chevalier De Lorraine, lover of the king's brother and one of the many courtly narcissists who plot their own advancement. Eventually she falls in love with Lucien De Barenton, Count De Chretien, a dwarf (but I didn't get the sense he was achondroplastic, did you?), powerful, charming, intelligent and evidently a supremely sensual lover. During the course of the novel characters have to decide to be moral, they have to decide to risk the wrath of king and/or church, they have to decide whether or not the sea woman is human and whether even if she is she should be killed to give the king the false hope of immortality. Things I liked about the novel: a realistic depiction of menstruation -- the debilitating type that keeps Odelette in bed and Marie-Josephe's unexpectedly messy one Marie-Josephe's ability to relate to animals. the fullness of characterization so that no one was all bad or all good, everyone had facets. The sheltered, narcissistic king was shown to be as intelligent as I would imagine a person would have to be to rule 50 years. He was shown to be both cruel and loving. the realistic depiction of the rotting of the sea man, the dirtying of the waters of the sea woman's prison. the singing of the sea woman, of course this is how a sea mammal would communicate. a little bit of the depiction of royal wealth and sensitivities, how the gardeners had to work at night so the king wouldn't have to be offended by the tilling of soil, the expectation of the king that his court favorites would be present for his morning toilet. The ending. The punishments definitely fitted the crimes. What I didn't like about the book: The amount of time devoted to describing royal wealth. It was good to know that American's didn't invent conspicuous consumption, but I just felt oppressed by the emphasis on stuff. Yes, collectors are still paying good money for that "stuff", but I'm not a collector and it became overwhelming. King Louis's possessions became the main character in the novel, at least for a good part of it. I don't think I've ever read a book like this. It could rightly be called a historical romance, and I don't read historical romances. In fact, I don't like romances in general, but who could resist the intelligent and sensual pull of Lucien? It could be called fantasy instead of science fiction, yet science is a major emphasis of the plot and characterizations. No wonder this book won the Nebula Award, what a full and diversified effort. I'm glad I finally got around to reading it, this is one I'll pass on to my friends. Joyce ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 21:10:29 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Pamela Bedore Subject: WisCon In-Reply-To: <007c01c0d797$71fe5220$2aaaea18@lvcm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hey Folks, This is my first year going to WisCon, but I remember people talking about sharing hotel rooms and having a fsf listserv lunch last year. I'm a second-year phd student, female, at the university of rochester. I did my ma thesis on feminist science fiction and gender theory, and i'm now working on popular culture (esp. detective) of the nineteenth century. I know it's pretty late, but if anyone is in the same boat as me (ie. poor grad student), i'd be interested in sharing a room. And of course, if people from the list are meeting, i'll be there. Respond off-list to bedr@mail.rochester.edu Cheers, pam Pamela Bedore Department of English University of Rochester ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 07:20:47 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Heather Stark Subject: Re: BDG The Moon and The Son MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's lots to bounce off in Joyce's intro. Here's a few stray reactions to Joyce's opener, and a small rant on the delicacy of the balance between sweet and strange in FSF. Joyce >....felt >oppressed by the emphasis on stuff....it became overwhelming. Stuff from that period is more 'stuff-like' than at most periods of history, I think. Not very likeable, to many modern sensibilities. (Including mine: Ormolu...??! Eww, blech.) So, it may be annoying/ oppressive/ overwhelming... but it's also accurate. It's interesting to me where the line is - and the overlap - between these characteristics, in reactions to portrayals. Joyce liked >Marie-Josephe's ability to relate to animals. This was a core element of the book, and it was the one I had the most difficulty with. Uh oh. Marie-Joseph's rapport with the sea-monster - and the sea-monster's rapport with her - struck me as being too sweet, too predictable, almost cloying. To me it feels better and more satisfying, when a predictable 'heartstrings' element like this is messed around with a bit - given a twist. I remember reading another book (possibly by R.A. McAvoy?), in which a girl/woman travelling alone is befriended by a white dog. Your expectation is that the dog will be a protector - and so it seems, for a while. It fits the fairy tale convention. Then the dog is given an alien/hostile edge, and your expectation is up-ended. I remember thinking: wow! got me there! Small rant: It's a delicate and very individual issue, what the right balance is between: -elements which are heartening, lovely, sweet, and predictable (etc) and - elements that cause you to reinterpret, that create tension through the dissonant chord they form between your expectation, and actuality, and that lead to resolution and insight, after messing with your head a bit. For myself, I like the dial tuned to the dark side. Unless I get enough of this to keep me on my toes, I find my interest level plummets. You can put the relevant dimensions in a 2 x 2 matrix, if you're in the mood for such things. Predictable/unpredictable vs Sweet/strange. This balance is a particular challenge with FSF, I think. My guess is that FSF often appeals because of its ability to affirm world views, rather than its ability to disturb them. The fact that there is a lot of variation in where people's dials are set, for this balance, leads to a lot of discussion on the list.... strangely, Heather ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:46:05 0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Schedule up to October MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This is the schedule for the BDG up to October: 4 June: Beggars in Spain by Nancy Kress 2 July: Always Coming Home by Ursula Le Guin (with focus on framestory "Stone Telling", i.e. pp.7-42, 173-202, 340-387) 6 August: Brain Plague by Joan Slonczewski 3-4 September: The Gumshoe, the Witch, and the Virtual Corpse by Keith Hartman 1 October: The Fortunate Fall by Raphael Carter The next nomination and selection period should be in August/September. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:06:00 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: BDG: The Moon and the Sun MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A few things, in random order: Someone mentioned they didn't like the obsession with THINGS. I thought this was important, and I am glad of it for several reasons. 1) Although I know a moderate amount about British royalty through the ages, I know nothing about the French. _I_ thought that the obsession with things was only prevalent with Louis XVI and Marie A--who quite rightly lost their heads over such an obsession. I did not know it had been going on for at least two monarchs previously. I seldom read non-fiction any more; I get my history lessons through mysteries and sf. 2) Another thing I learned is that although people were obsessed with visual beauty, they tolerated -- TOLERATED! -- obnoxious odors, even when a little foresight and planning could have solved the problem. I mean, I knew all about pomanders and such (I was a good little member of the SCA in my twenties), but I did not know that Versailles stank. Whoda' thunk it? 3) I think it was important to the plot to point out the obsession with things. Louis thought he owned everything, and was entitled to own everything. The sea creature was his because he sent his ship to go collect it. In other words, it was his because he wanted it. This thinking is typical of two-year-olds. He may have been politically astute, but in some ways he was very stupid. Which brings me to my next point. The priest in the book at one point makes the statement that we (he, Louis, humanity as a whole) have a right to do with the sea creatures as we wish, because God gave us dominion over the animals. Some thinking that typified the middle ages and renaissance died a natural death. Unfortunately, this one didn't. I know, I know, it's a biggie in Christian faith. Although I was (more or less) raised Christian, I never thought much about it as a child. Once I was old enough to understand what Christianity was really all about, I was appalled. This belief that We own Them is one reason. Of course, there are degrees of being appalled. I remember fifteen years ago, planning a vacation with a friend, and mentioning that I wanted to go to Sea World. She very quietly told me that she did not ever go to zoos or any place which kept animals caged. At that point in time, I couldn't understand it. I mean, zoos and such places kept species alive, didn't they? If they displayed animals, it was for the education of the general public, and to make the money needed to further their more enlightened goals. Fast forward to six months ago. One of the secretaries in my office asked why I was a vegetarian. I told her about a television program I had watched a few years ago, which made me lose dinner, lunch, and that morning's breakfast. I told her about the scenes of elephant carcasses, rotting and flyblown, killed for their tusks. "So?" I told her about scenes of the slaughterhouse. "So?" I told her about the scenes of young Chinese children, going to a restaurant for dinner, going behind the building to row upon row of cages containing live puppies and kittens. The children gleefully picked out which one they wanted to eat for dinner. "So? God gave them to us to use any way we choose. If we want to eat them, what's wrong with that?" Plus ca change, plus le meme chose. I think one of the most important things a book can do is to make us question our own values. Unfortunately, this secretary will never read Vonda McIntyre. She hardly ever reads anything at all. If left to her own devices, she'd rather go shopping. I asked her one day if she ever read for pleasure. "Once in a while I'll sit down with a good Barbara Cartland." Sigh. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 20:55:49 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: sc Subject: Re: BDG: The Moon and the Sun MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I think it was important to the > plot to point out the obsession with things. For me the constant descriptions of frocks and hairstyles also highlighted how incredibly tedious Marie-Joseph's daily round of dressing and undressing self-obsessed aristos was, when she could have been following her scientific interests. It was like a glimpse into an early "Hello!" magazine. SC ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:00:07 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: BDG selection for June Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Discussion Groupers; This month we¹re discussing ³Beggars in Spain² by Nancy Kress. Discussion will be officially started by the nominator about the first Monday of June. Enjoy! Looking forward to seeing some of you at Wiscon! Mellen For the BDG Volunteers Upcoming Books- 2 July: Always Coming Home by Ursula Le Guin (with focus on framestory "Stone Telling", i.e. pp.7-42, 173-202, 340-387) 6 August: Brain Plague by Joan Slonczewski 3-4 September: The Gumshoe, the Witch, and the Virtual Corpse by Keith Hartman 1 October: The Fortunate Fall by Raphael Carter *************************************************************************** The BDG provides a forum for focusing discussion on a particular book during a one month period. The books discussed are nominated and chosen in advance by a vote of all members of the FSFFU-L list serve who choose to vote. Start thinking about your nominations now. To quote our list-mistress, "This does not prohibit discussion of the BDG books at other times; nor does it prohibit discussion of non-BDG books." If you have any other questions about the Book Discussion Group (BDG), it's selections, previous discussions or the Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy and Utopias Literature List Serve (FSFFU-L), you can start with the BDG website at; http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304, or the FSFFU-L website at; http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/fsflit/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.