From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:51:45 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:39 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0106D" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:46:13 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Siobhan Shanahan Subject: Pat Murphy Comments: To: femsf lit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0073_01C0FB19.51FC0940" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C0FB19.51FC0940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Im trying to find some new femsf to read- Pat Murphy was mentioned at femsf announce. I have read reviews of her 'Falling WOman' and they seemed to be very = much a mixed bag. I got the impresssion it was more in the supernatural = genre rather than sf , and that the matriachal (is that a word?) = religion in the book seemed rather violent and blood thirsty which put = me off somewhat. IE- I felt revewiers were saying 'its feminist, because = it depicts a matriarchal (again, sorry about grammar) religion' yet to = me, it felt like well, hte one time a book has a matriarchal [ ;-) ] = religion in it, its a violent, bloodthorsty and basically unfavourable = one.=20 What about 'There and Back Again' - is that any good?=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C0FB19.51FC0940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Im trying to find some new femsf to=20 read-
Pat Murphy was mentioned at femsf=20 announce.
I have read reviews of her 'Falling = WOman' and they=20 seemed to be very much a mixed bag. I got the impresssion it was more in = the=20 supernatural genre rather than sf , and that the matriachal (is that a = word?)=20 religion in the book seemed rather violent and blood thirsty which put = me off=20 somewhat. IE- I felt revewiers were saying 'its feminist, because it = depicts a=20 matriarchal (again, sorry about grammar) religion' yet to me, it felt = like well,=20 hte one time a book has a matriarchal [ ;-) ] religion in it, its a = violent,=20 bloodthorsty and basically unfavourable one.
What about 'There and Back Again' - is = that any=20 good?
------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C0FB19.51FC0940-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:36:24 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Alison Hendon Subject: Re: Pat Murphy Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <007601c0fac5$8117dd20$8a198690@mpx.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Marie, I read There and Back Again and really enjoyed it. I am very fond of Tolkien and this was really a Tolkien homage. It was fun finding the parallels in this space tale. I don't know how feminist I'd call it (not un-feminist though). Alison > Im trying to find some new femsf to read- > Pat Murphy was mentioned at femsf announce. > I have read reviews of her 'Falling WOman' and they seemed to be very much a mixed bag. I got the impresssion it was more in the supernatural genre rather than sf , and that the matriachal (is that a word?) religion in the book seemed rather violent and blood thirsty which put me off somewhat. IE- I felt revewiers were saying 'its feminist, because it depicts a matriarchal (again, sorry about grammar) religion' yet to me, it felt like well, hte one time a book has a matriarchal [ ;-) ] religion in it, its a violent, bloodthorsty and basically unfavourable one. > What about 'There and Back Again' - is that any good? > Alison Hendon alison@vabish.com "Though my soul may set in darkness, It will rise in perfect light, I have loved the stars too fondly To be fearful of the night...." - Sarah Williams, "The Old Astronomer to His Pupil" ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 02:41:36 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Finding new femsf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hallo, I have jts rejoined the list after previoulsy using the address 'maireshanahan@aol.com' So hallo to everyone! Whenever I am looking at recomendations for femsf, or lists of books used in previous book discussions etc, I usually own every one of the books mentioned. So I have this fear that I am going to somehow 'run out of new fem sf to read! So I was very glad to discover the new (to me anyway) 'femsf announce' site. Which brings me to the point..... I have very often seen the series by Storm Constantine, but asumed it to be a typical comercial type fantasy by numbers series. Howeverm I was interested to see it recomended at the femsf announce site. WOuld anyone mind just telling me how feminist the series is?- or- in what way is it feminist/socially speculative/ gener bendering/ of interest to femsf fans. I had thought it might just be in the 'by a woman, and not *anti-feminist* anyway!' category that exists to get the femsf numbers up. I hope this is not 'off topic'! I am feeling a bit nervous posting because of all the stern wanring re protocol! And also- if anyone has any recomendations for geniunely feminist sf, by new/unknown authors (ie ones I dont own!) that would be much appreciated also! Glad to be back, Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 01:12:53 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: Finding new femsf Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200106230106.tj88vi.a7a.37kbi14@pickering.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maire wrote: > > hallo, I have jts rejoined the list after previoulsy using the address > 'maireshanahan@aol.com' So hallo to everyone! Whenever I am looking at > recomendations for femsf, or lists of books used in previous book > discussions etc, I usually own every one of the books mentioned. So I > have this fear that I am going to somehow 'run out of new fem sf to > read! So I was very glad to discover the new (to me anyway) 'femsf > announce' site. Which brings me to the point..... I have very often > seen the series by Storm Constantine, but asumed it to be a typical > comercial type fantasy by numbers series. Howeverm I was interested to > see it recomended at the femsf announce site. WOuld anyone mind just > telling me how feminist the series is?- or- in what way is it > feminist/socially speculative/ gener bendering/ of interest to femsf > fans. I had thought it might just be in the 'by a woman, and not > *anti-feminist* anyway!' category that exists to get the femsf numbers > up. Her Wreathru (sp?) series has both good and bad points. One one level, it is very much of a "new species of superbeings arises to supplant humanity type book", on another level it is very much about homosexuality and gender-bending and not so much questioning gender as playing with it. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 06:43:02 -0400 Reply-To: Amy Harlib Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Pat Murphy Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00FB_01C0FAE6.96236CE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00FB_01C0FAE6.96236CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Im trying to find some new femsf to read- Pat Murphy was mentioned at femsf announce. I have read reviews of her 'Falling WOman' and they seemed to be very = much a mixed bag. I got the impresssion it was more in the supernatural = genre rather than sf , and that the matriachal (is that a word?) = religion in the book seemed rather violent and blood thirsty which put = me off somewhat. IE- I felt revewiers were saying 'its feminist, because = it depicts a matriarchal (again, sorry about grammar) religion' yet to = me, it felt like well, hte one time a book has a matriarchal [ ;-) ] = religion in it, its a violent, bloodthorsty and basically unfavourable = one.=20 What about 'There and Back Again' - is that any good? = = Haven't read 'There = and Back Again' yet but give 'The Wild Angel' a try. Here is my review = which is also posted where I contribute regularly at rambles.net. = = = = The Wild Angel by Pat Murphy (Tor Books, NY, Aug. 2000, = $23.95, hardcover, ISBN#: 0-312-86626-7). = =20 Pat Murphy's latest novel The Wild Angel, (also credited as by Mary = Maxwell by Max Meriwell in a playful authorial pseudonymous experiment), is = the second in a trio of tales paying homage to great classics of = imaginative fiction. The first, 'There and Back Again', was a loving pastiche of Tolkien's The Hobbit re-worked as a space opera. This one is faithful = to the spirit of Edgar Rice Burrough's Tarzan tales and Rudyard Kipling's Jungle Book Mowgli stories with a hefty nod to Mark Twain who is = quoted in every epigraph for each chapter. The resulting yarn, a delightful cross-genre mix with elements of mystery, western and = fantasy/adventure infused with a feminist sensibility, is also a wolf-girl saga that = nicely complements the entirely independent Nadya: The Wolf Chronicles = (1996). = =20 In Gold Rush California (1850), hopeful settlers Rachel and William = McKenzie have their dreams cut short when they are murdered by the ruthless = robber Jasper Davis in their camp not far from the boomtown of Selby. Their = 3 year old daughter Sarah, by hiding in a cave, avoids death, finding her = survival depends upon the wolf pack led by the she-wolf Wauna that adopts her. = Like her special wolf-companion Beka, one of Wauna's offspring, Sarah grows = wild, strong, healthy and wary of humans for many years until a chance = encounter and resulting friendship with Malila, a young Miwok Indian woman and = shaman who shows her that not all people are to be feared. Meanwhile, evidence of the crime is discovered by writer/artist Max = Philips, but the perpetrator remains unknown. Max, loving to camp and sketch = in this wilderness area, as the years pass, occassionally glimpses Sarah, who = is becoming known as the Wild Angel for her beauty, spectacular red hair = and kindness to distressed travelers. Gradually Max gains Sarah's trust = and friendship for he has been haunted by her ever since the day he = discovered her parent's bodies but couldn't find their little girl. He also = keeps this odd friend of his secret, fearing that the murderer of Sarah's parents = is still nearby which indeed he is, for Jasper Davis has been buying respectability with the proceeds of his crimes, but never forgetting = that Sarah witnessed his foul deed. In the outlandish tradition of the = pulpy adventure novels on which this book draws inspiration, Sarah = eventually joins a circus, meets her long-lost aunt from back east and confronts = Jasper Davis in a predictable but undeniably exciting and suspenseful climax. Pat Murphy's crisp, concise prose style and authorial skill in = assembling the elements of her mythical novel evokes such an appropriate = atmosphere that suspension of disbelief comes effortlessly and the swift-paced narrative sucks the reader right in. The Wild Angel also features = vivid depictions of Gold Rush California that ring true and contains graphic descriptions of the 'nature red in tooth and claw' struggle for = survival that is life in a pack of wolves as well as of the loving = companionship of which these noble animals are capable. A thoughtful subtext = contrasting the wilderness and Native American lifestyles in balance with the forces = of nature with the exploitation of and damage to the land caused by the Anglo-Americam settlers and miners adds depth to the story without preachiness--not spoiling the sheer fun of this yarn with its lovable protagonists and compelling, fanciful and ultimately heartwarming = plot. In the Afterword, Murphy discusses how the layers of pseudonyms = influenced her writing and how they will help to tie together 'There and Back = Again', this book, and the next one. Meanwhile, allow Sarah, the Wild = Angel---a woman who truly runs with the wolves in every sense of those words, to = run away with your heart and have a ripsnorting romp of a read while doing = so! ------=_NextPart_000_00FB_01C0FAE6.96236CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

Im trying to find some new femsf to=20 read-
Pat Murphy was mentioned at femsf=20 announce.
I have read reviews of her 'Falling = WOman' and=20 they seemed to be very much a mixed bag. I got the impresssion it was = more in=20 the supernatural genre rather than sf , and that the matriachal (is = that a=20 word?) religion in the book seemed rather violent and blood thirsty = which put=20 me off somewhat. IE- I felt revewiers were saying 'its feminist, = because it=20 depicts a matriarchal (again, sorry about grammar) religion' yet to = me, it=20 felt like well, hte one time a book has a matriarchal [ ;-) ] religion = in it,=20 its a violent, bloodthorsty and basically unfavourable one. =
What about 'There and Back Again' - = is that any=20 good?            =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20 Haven't read 'There and Back Again' yet but give 'The Wild Angel' a = try. =20 Here is my review which is also posted where I contribute regularly at = = rambles.net.          &= nbsp;           =20             =    =20             =    =20        =20 =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;          The Wild = Angel by=20 Pat Murphy (Tor Books, NY, Aug. 2000, $23.95, hardcover,
ISBN#:=20 0-312-86626-7).        =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20        
Pat Murphy's latest novel = The Wild=20 Angel, (also credited as by Mary Maxwell
by Max Meriwell in a = playful=20 authorial pseudonymous experiment), is the
second in a trio of = tales paying=20 homage to great classics of imaginative
fiction.  The first, = 'There=20 and Back Again', was a loving pastiche of
Tolkien's The Hobbit = re-worked as=20 a space opera.  This one is faithful to
the spirit of Edgar = Rice=20 Burrough's Tarzan tales and Rudyard Kipling's
Jungle Book Mowgli = stories=20 with a hefty nod to Mark Twain who is quoted in
every epigraph for = each=20 chapter.  The resulting yarn, a delightful
cross-genre mix = with=20 elements of mystery, western and fantasy/adventure
infused with a = feminist=20 sensibility, is also a wolf-girl saga that nicely
complements the = entirely=20 independent Nadya: The Wolf Chronicles (1996).   =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20            
In Gold = Rush=20 California (1850), hopeful settlers Rachel and William = McKenzie
have their=20 dreams cut short when they are murdered by the ruthless = robber
Jasper Davis=20 in their camp not far from the boomtown of Selby.  Their 3 = year
old=20 daughter Sarah, by hiding in a cave, avoids death, finding her=20 survival
depends upon the wolf pack led by the she-wolf Wauna that = adopts=20 her.  Like
her special wolf-companion Beka, one of Wauna's = offspring,=20 Sarah grows wild,
strong, healthy and wary of humans for many years = until a=20 chance encounter
and resulting friendship with Malila, a young = Miwok Indian=20 woman and shaman
who shows her that not all people are to be=20 feared.

Meanwhile, evidence of the crime is discovered by = writer/artist=20 Max Philips,
but the perpetrator remains unknown.  Max, loving = to camp=20 and sketch in this
wilderness area, as the years pass, = occassionally=20 glimpses Sarah, who is
becoming known as the Wild Angel for her = beauty,=20 spectacular red hair and
kindness to distressed travelers.  = Gradually=20 Max gains Sarah's trust and
friendship for he has been haunted by = her ever=20 since the day he discovered
her parent's bodies but couldn't find = their=20 little girl.  He also keeps this
odd friend of his secret, = fearing=20 that the murderer of Sarah's parents is
still nearby which indeed = he is,=20 for Jasper Davis has been buying
respectability with the proceeds = of his=20 crimes, but never forgetting that
Sarah witnessed his foul = deed.  In=20 the outlandish tradition of the pulpy
adventure novels on which = this book=20 draws inspiration, Sarah eventually
joins a circus, meets her = long-lost=20 aunt from back east and confronts Jasper
Davis in a predictable but = undeniably exciting and suspenseful climax.
Pat Murphy's crisp, = concise=20 prose style and authorial skill in assembling
the elements of her = mythical=20 novel evokes such an appropriate atmosphere
that suspension of = disbelief=20 comes effortlessly and the swift-paced
narrative sucks the reader = right=20 in.  The Wild Angel also features vivid
depictions of Gold = Rush=20 California that ring true and contains graphic
descriptions of the = 'nature=20 red in tooth and claw' struggle for survival
that is life in a pack = of=20 wolves as well as of the loving companionship of
which these noble = animals=20 are capable.  A thoughtful subtext contrasting the
wilderness = and=20 Native American lifestyles in balance with the forces of
nature = with the=20 exploitation of and damage to the land caused by the
Anglo-Americam = settlers and miners adds depth to the story = without
preachiness--not=20 spoiling the sheer fun of this yarn with its lovable
protagonists = and=20 compelling, fanciful and ultimately heartwarming plot.
In the = Afterword,=20 Murphy discusses how the layers of pseudonyms influenced
her = writing and=20 how they will help to tie together 'There and Back Again',
this = book, and=20 the next one.  Meanwhile, allow Sarah, the Wild = Angel---a
woman who=20 truly runs with the wolves in every sense of those words, to = run
away with=20 your heart and have a ripsnorting romp of a read while doing=20 so!

------=_NextPart_000_00FB_01C0FAE6.96236CE0-- ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 15:44:06 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Sherri Tepper- 2 stlyes Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200106230812.EAA12123@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having onyl bneen recently introduced to Tepper, I have, i the last 6 months or so, read first The Singer from the Sea (at its release), then the Family Tree, then in the last week, the Fresco, and now Sideshow. I was rather suprised, after reading Singer, at Family Tree.... and now it is the same experience with Fresco, then Sideshow. The first are very much sf as a venue to explore culture, politics etc, wheres the others are more like humours, satirical sf, almost like Pratchett. I hav read a review on Fresco in which the reviewer felt there was far to much of tepper on her soap box, and protagnist as mouthpiece, and not enough tension, danger etc. Personally (though I am quite sure Iam in a minority) this is what I like, world building, culture analysis and so on... and I can do without the car chases really. Although I did enjoy Family Tree and Sidewshow,... it has ust occured to me that I might not have even finished them had I not known that Tepper had written them. Maybe that is going too far! But, as I try and chose books to match my mood, I am going to have to be rather more careful with Tepper, and fauge whether its a sf satire or a political sf! Maire -----Original Message----- From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of John Snead Sent: Saturday, 23 June 2001 6:13 PM To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Finding new femsf Maire wrote: > > hallo, I have jts rejoined the list after previoulsy using the address > 'maireshanahan@aol.com' So hallo to everyone! Whenever I am looking at > recomendations for femsf, or lists of books used in previous book > discussions etc, I usually own every one of the books mentioned. So I > have this fear that I am going to somehow 'run out of new fem sf to > read! So I was very glad to discover the new (to me anyway) 'femsf > announce' site. Which brings me to the point..... I have very often > seen the series by Storm Constantine, but asumed it to be a typical > comercial type fantasy by numbers series. Howeverm I was interested to > see it recomended at the femsf announce site. WOuld anyone mind just > telling me how feminist the series is?- or- in what way is it > feminist/socially speculative/ gener bendering/ of interest to femsf > fans. I had thought it might just be in the 'by a woman, and not > *anti-feminist* anyway!' category that exists to get the femsf numbers > up. Her Wreathru (sp?) series has both good and bad points. One one level, it is very much of a "new species of superbeings arises to supplant humanity type book", on another level it is very much about homosexuality and gender-bending and not so much questioning gender as playing with it. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 15:53:03 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: Finding new femsf Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200106230812.EAA12123@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks so much for your reply, John- actually, after sorting through some books (well, some thousands, I finally got some bookcases so am moving my books out of boxes)I discovered a copy of I think- Crown of Silence by Storm Constantine... think that is actually the second in the series dammit.... that is her Magadanvag (complete liberties taken with that name, sorry)series, as opposed to the Wreathu series... though when I read the cover after reading your post, your post was still fariyyl accurate... ie the first line of the blurb: 'the was has left the boy Shan raped and wounded by the invading army" -----Original Message----- From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of John Snead Sent: Saturday, 23 June 2001 6:13 PM To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Finding new femsf Maire wrote: > > hallo, I have jts rejoined the list after previoulsy using the address > 'maireshanahan@aol.com' So hallo to everyone! Whenever I am looking at > recomendations for femsf, or lists of books used in previous book > discussions etc, I usually own every one of the books mentioned. So I > have this fear that I am going to somehow 'run out of new fem sf to > read! So I was very glad to discover the new (to me anyway) 'femsf > announce' site. Which brings me to the point..... I have very often > seen the series by Storm Constantine, but asumed it to be a typical > comercial type fantasy by numbers series. Howeverm I was interested to > see it recomended at the femsf announce site. WOuld anyone mind just > telling me how feminist the series is?- or- in what way is it > feminist/socially speculative/ gener bendering/ of interest to femsf > fans. I had thought it might just be in the 'by a woman, and not > *anti-feminist* anyway!' category that exists to get the femsf numbers > up. Her Wreathru (sp?) series has both good and bad points. One one level, it is very much of a "new species of superbeings arises to supplant humanity type book", on another level it is very much about homosexuality and gender-bending and not so much questioning gender as playing with it. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 15:53:44 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: THe Tellin by le Guin Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200106230812.EAA12123@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Question: are there any opinoins on le Guins latest, the Telling? I have been 'saving' it, so Im interested in any reactions... Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 01:22:20 +0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dale Edmonds Subject: Re: THe Tellin by le Guin Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Read it before reading a review. I regret reading a critical review first because it altered my perceptions. Spoiler Space then. I was really disappointed. It lacked the political and social range of her other worlds - the Government was simply oppressive for no apparent reason, the religion was Good with very few drawbacks - characters were thinly drawn stereotypes and I finished it feeling as if I'd struggled through dry propaganda. I have strong opinions personally about China (which appears to be the country influencing the one here) and about that government's handling of Falungung and Taoism. They definitely conflict with Ms. Le Guin's, so if you have the same beliefs as her, maybe the book would seem far better. However, I've felt differently about other political beliefs of hers in other books (Four Ways to Forgiveness, some of Always Coming Home) and the subtle shading, the depth of her awareness of these alien worlds she'd envisioned, the way she helped portray this as *one story* from many possible stories -- all that was missing in the Telling. I can't remember where the review was, a magazine I picked up somewhere, but the reviewer said the book had direct references to the current religious repression in China. That writer viewed it as another "outsider" imposing their own narrow viewpoint on a far more complex situation. I'm hesitant to agree with that for many reasons, but I ended up examining the book for those references and that viewpoint. I don't think The Telling succeeds either as a political and religious fable or as a literary story - it swerves between them. There's supposed to be a collection of short pieces set in Earthsea coming out soon though. After The Telling, I went back and re-read the fourth book of that, the one with the older woman and her search. As much as I love the first three with their classic rise and triumph of the hero, the fourth book is the cornerstone for me, and the best that Le Guin as a writer has ever written. -Dale Edmonds ---------- >From: Maire >To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU >Subject: [*FSF-L*] THe Tellin by le Guin >Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 1:53 PM > > Question: are there any opinoins on le Guins latest, the Telling? I have > been 'saving' it, so Im interested in any reactions... > Maire > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf-lit > > Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 01:19:03 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: BDG: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <006501c0ef26$8ea445a0$2c94b3d1@w95s> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I've had quite a busy month. Jo Ann, what you say about designer babies made me think a lot. I have a disease that is caused by genetic predisposition and I sometimes wonder if I had the choice to alter a future child's genes so s/he wouldn't have it, would I actually go for it? My illness may have made my life hell, but it has made me who I am today. I have a lot to thank it for really because it's made me a tougher, more tenacious person than I was before I got sick. Also, I've become very knowledgeable about auto-immune disorders and about the shitty things that go on in hospitals and how incompetent and stupid some medical professionals are. If I were to alter my child's genes so s/he would not have the possibility of getting sick, wouldn't I be saying that my disease is an inherent flaw? If I can't accept it in my child, how can I accept it in myself? I would want my children not to have to suffer like I have, but what if medical science is much improved by the time I have children anyway? The advances in the treatment of my illness have been amazing just in the past 10 years! I can totally relate to what you are saying about needing some time off to slow down and enjoy life. I've had to do that a few times now. I sometimes feel like a failure because other people are judging me because I'm not productive. But I still have a full life and I'm not just sitting around doing nothing. I'm also going back to college in the fall and it's not like college is somehow easier than working for a living- especially for a perfectionist like me who feels driven to get a 4.0 every damned semester. I do plan on doing something with my life, even if it means working from home or working part time or just being a career college student. However, I feel like I'm doing something worthwhile with my life just reading books, doing yoga, and doing crafts and that I don't need a job to make me feel fulfilled or like a real human being. I just wish I had more of a choice in the matter and wasn't forced by disease to not work. I liked Beggars in Spain because it made me think a lot about the ethics of bioengineering. Some things about the book bothered me and seemed a bit off, but overall, I liked it. I liked the characters a lot too, especially Miri and the other Supers. I was conflicted in how to feel about them: pity for them being so odd or admiration for their superior intellects. Has anyone read the other two books in the trilogy? I plan to get them out of the library sometime this summer. Jennifer At 12:50 AM 6/7/01 -0700, you wrote: >Its been a long while since reading this novel but I remember my reaction >was basically, we are so close to having designer babies it scares me a bit >because you consider the thousands of children in real life who are born >live for a little and die unloved, who could have been loved somehow if >there were little things like food and shelter and schooling. Then you read >about people fighting over frozen embryos who spend tons of money to >preserve the DNA of someone they loved when somewhere on the planet is a >child who needs to be loved to survive and is so desperate for it, but it >never arrives in time or if it does, it turns into the wrong kind of love. >I remember when this novel came out, it was just >in the news they were starting to run all those machines to identify DNA, >back in 1991 or so when the race was starting? So the concept of making a >child who never needed sleep was not so far fetched. But you know whenever >they mention anything that smacks of remaking perfectly designed children, >older folks think of the Nazis and the master race. So Kress captured in >her tone those running fears that inhabit all of us who could speculate >"what if?" And this would be the right sort of climate in America to have >this sort of growing dichotomy between those who have and those who have >not, to make it an even wider spanse if people who have were able to create >their "dream child." >I really really believe in a cultural sense, people treat change in vast, >very monumental ways. Where it is an American custom to define yourself as >what you do, but when it gets tossed about in the cultural mix, it can take >on many different forms. I was very ill and am currently disabled myself. >And I had to learn something very important or I wasn't going to make it. >That sometimes things change for a good reason, whether it is your health >(as in my case it was Severe Depression), or you face a loss (like the job >before you became disabled), and like any loss there is a time you take to >grieve over it. >I took a year off this past year to learn about myself, that and to give my >body the rest it needed, because I had been for the previous five years, >patching myself up in order to move onward with my degree, and working, and >caring for my elderly father, and there wasn't anyone to say to me, you need >time, and you need to go rest. So against everyone's advice, I said am >getting off the merry go round and taking a breather. At first there was >guilt (my professors and friends at school commented man wish *I* could take >time off like that but life won't let me, thing is, I have learned that >anyone can do anything they want to, least in this country), then the first >five months I was like so ridden with angst because I was not *doing* >anything. But you know I was doing something. I was helping my father >learn to rest too, he was used to hard physical labor, then he got very ill >in 1999. We sort of took a vacation together, as the world went through its >daily grind(6am the foghorn at the Santa Fe station sounds, at 5pm it sounds >again indicating the day is done), we would spend afternoons talking, >growing a garden, planting fruit trees that have given us some great Blood >oranges and Apricots, or if either of us wanted to, slept all day, then >watched a movie or took a walk later in the evening----we had all this >FREEDOM! and it was not until this past March we started feeling I dunno >how to describe it other than, content, calm, maybe normal? >There are people in this world who think if you are not working as hard as >they are, you are lazy. But you know, I graduated in 1999 with my BA in >English, and I did not get to enjoy the feat of doing it until about January >of this year. Because I had it in my head not to stop and see what I had >accomplished, I had to go get a job and make money and run that ratrace or >else I would get left behind...and that was what stopped me, who the hell am >I to get left behind from what or who? I was a single woman for gawd sake! >I could do anything I damn well pleased! >Then was around Christmas when all these folks I had made friends with over >the years started remembering me and asking about what I had been doing, and >I would say I needed a rest, and I would hear wow, you look fantastic, am so >happy you got what you needed. That was when I felt like this whole >experiment in terror, of saying stop I need to get off this bandwagon for a >bit, worked out for me. You can't be any good to yourself if you do not >treat yourself well. So this may be a gift of time to you Sharon, to >breathe, to do whatever you want, as long as your body receives what it >needs, and if it is rest, then it might be for now, that is what the body is >telling you. >I think the Beggar part of this novel is more attuned to say someone who >worked in an auto plant then finds out they found a way to make production >of cars better using better made human beings, so someone with the skills of >an autoworker would feel as if they had taken every bit of what he was >because they took his job. It is a bit different with people who are >knowledgible about a lot of different things, because out of that knowledge >you have more choices, much like without the need to sleep, these children >were able to think out problems and run businesses because they had the >means to contain more smarts and had the time to accomplish more with their >gifts. Oh and the cultural thing I mentioned at the beginning of this >speel, grin, was I notice in my own culture, that being of Mexican-American >culture, when it seems you have been handed a certain lot in life that means >it is a chapter of your life ending, it usually means you have another door >open to something else. In plaintalk when something bad happens to my >relatives, they have this ability to simply start over even when they are in >their last years of living. For me anyway, starting over was after my >divorce in 1994 with nothing to my name, I had a net worth of zero. Now >that I have finally gotten the rest I need, I can see much more clearly the >steps I can take to fufilling a decent life for myself. >I remember telling myself when I got done with this book, Kress is not far >off the mark as far as the technology went, because remember, they are >trying to trademark or patent those DNA they are using for those code of >life books...makes me think about the possibilities. Ordering a child is >not that hard to do if you have the cash in our country. >Jo Ann ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 05:45:27 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: BDG: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010625005645.00ab9470@mail.superior.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Personally, I found the underlying idea in Beggars in Spain that inspired alot of the debate in teh book very disturbing... ie that why should the productive support the productive. Maybe cause I am not from the US, (am from Aus)... maybe cause US is so capitialist with such a astong division between rich and poor. I like to think that here, anyway, that is really not the question. I just oculdnt stomach the idea at all, because it seems to me, that nomatter how hard working, productive etc etc you are, you never now what is around the corner- accident, disease, or divorce, depression, substance dependancy, that might turn a productive person in to non-productivce person.. and *vice versa* - a 'beggar' or street person, wahtever, gets it together, and becomes productive. And then, who is to say what is productive and hwat isnt? So you should never complain about supporting the 'non-productive' cause (first of all, its a very dangerous statemet to make, that someone is non-productive ie some people say that single mothers are unproductive etc) and secondly, the productiove person who doean see why they should use resources to support the non-producive, might very well become non-productivce themselves - and bice versa. So did I go on enough about that? : ) -----Original Message----- From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Jennifer R. J. Sent: Monday, 25 June 2001 6:19 PM To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I've had quite a busy month. Jo Ann, what you say about designer babies made me think a lot. I have a disease that is caused by genetic predisposition and I sometimes wonder if I had the choice to alter a future child's genes so s/he wouldn't have it, would I actually go for it? My illness may have made my life hell, but it has made me who I am today. I have a lot to thank it for really because it's made me a tougher, more tenacious person than I was before I got sick. Also, I've become very knowledgeable about auto-immune disorders and about the shitty things that go on in hospitals and how incompetent and stupid some medical professionals are. If I were to alter my child's genes so s/he would not have the possibility of getting sick, wouldn't I be saying that my disease is an inherent flaw? If I can't accept it in my child, how can I accept it in myself? I would want my children not to have to suffer like I have, but what if medical science is much improved by the time I have children anyway? The advances in the treatment of my illness have been amazing just in the past 10 years! I can totally relate to what you are saying about needing some time off to slow down and enjoy life. I've had to do that a few times now. I sometimes feel like a failure because other people are judging me because I'm not productive. But I still have a full life and I'm not just sitting around doing nothing. I'm also going back to college in the fall and it's not like college is somehow easier than working for a living- especially for a perfectionist like me who feels driven to get a 4.0 every damned semester. I do plan on doing something with my life, even if it means working from home or working part time or just being a career college student. However, I feel like I'm doing something worthwhile with my life just reading books, doing yoga, and doing crafts and that I don't need a job to make me feel fulfilled or like a real human being. I just wish I had more of a choice in the matter and wasn't forced by disease to not work. I liked Beggars in Spain because it made me think a lot about the ethics of bioengineering. Some things about the book bothered me and seemed a bit off, but overall, I liked it. I liked the characters a lot too, especially Miri and the other Supers. I was conflicted in how to feel about them: pity for them being so odd or admiration for their superior intellects. Has anyone read the other two books in the trilogy? I plan to get them out of the library sometime this summer. Jennifer At 12:50 AM 6/7/01 -0700, you wrote: >Its been a long while since reading this novel but I remember my reaction >was basically, we are so close to having designer babies it scares me a bit >because you consider the thousands of children in real life who are born >live for a little and die unloved, who could have been loved somehow if >there were little things like food and shelter and schooling. Then you read >about people fighting over frozen embryos who spend tons of money to >preserve the DNA of someone they loved when somewhere on the planet is a >child who needs to be loved to survive and is so desperate for it, but it >never arrives in time or if it does, it turns into the wrong kind of love. >I remember when this novel came out, it was just >in the news they were starting to run all those machines to identify DNA, >back in 1991 or so when the race was starting? So the concept of making a >child who never needed sleep was not so far fetched. But you know whenever >they mention anything that smacks of remaking perfectly designed children, >older folks think of the Nazis and the master race. So Kress captured in >her tone those running fears that inhabit all of us who could speculate >"what if?" And this would be the right sort of climate in America to have >this sort of growing dichotomy between those who have and those who have >not, to make it an even wider spanse if people who have were able to create >their "dream child." >I really really believe in a cultural sense, people treat change in vast, >very monumental ways. Where it is an American custom to define yourself as >what you do, but when it gets tossed about in the cultural mix, it can take >on many different forms. I was very ill and am currently disabled myself. >And I had to learn something very important or I wasn't going to make it. >That sometimes things change for a good reason, whether it is your health >(as in my case it was Severe Depression), or you face a loss (like the job >before you became disabled), and like any loss there is a time you take to >grieve over it. >I took a year off this past year to learn about myself, that and to give my >body the rest it needed, because I had been for the previous five years, >patching myself up in order to move onward with my degree, and working, and >caring for my elderly father, and there wasn't anyone to say to me, you need >time, and you need to go rest. So against everyone's advice, I said am >getting off the merry go round and taking a breather. At first there was >guilt (my professors and friends at school commented man wish *I* could take >time off like that but life won't let me, thing is, I have learned that >anyone can do anything they want to, least in this country), then the first >five months I was like so ridden with angst because I was not *doing* >anything. But you know I was doing something. I was helping my father >learn to rest too, he was used to hard physical labor, then he got very ill >in 1999. We sort of took a vacation together, as the world went through its >daily grind(6am the foghorn at the Santa Fe station sounds, at 5pm it sounds >again indicating the day is done), we would spend afternoons talking, >growing a garden, planting fruit trees that have given us some great Blood >oranges and Apricots, or if either of us wanted to, slept all day, then >watched a movie or took a walk later in the evening----we had all this >FREEDOM! and it was not until this past March we started feeling I dunno >how to describe it other than, content, calm, maybe normal? >There are people in this world who think if you are not working as hard as >they are, you are lazy. But you know, I graduated in 1999 with my BA in >English, and I did not get to enjoy the feat of doing it until about January >of this year. Because I had it in my head not to stop and see what I had >accomplished, I had to go get a job and make money and run that ratrace or >else I would get left behind...and that was what stopped me, who the hell am >I to get left behind from what or who? I was a single woman for gawd sake! >I could do anything I damn well pleased! >Then was around Christmas when all these folks I had made friends with over >the years started remembering me and asking about what I had been doing, and >I would say I needed a rest, and I would hear wow, you look fantastic, am so >happy you got what you needed. That was when I felt like this whole >experiment in terror, of saying stop I need to get off this bandwagon for a >bit, worked out for me. You can't be any good to yourself if you do not >treat yourself well. So this may be a gift of time to you Sharon, to >breathe, to do whatever you want, as long as your body receives what it >needs, and if it is rest, then it might be for now, that is what the body is >telling you. >I think the Beggar part of this novel is more attuned to say someone who >worked in an auto plant then finds out they found a way to make production >of cars better using better made human beings, so someone with the skills of >an autoworker would feel as if they had taken every bit of what he was >because they took his job. It is a bit different with people who are >knowledgible about a lot of different things, because out of that knowledge >you have more choices, much like without the need to sleep, these children >were able to think out problems and run businesses because they had the >means to contain more smarts and had the time to accomplish more with their >gifts. Oh and the cultural thing I mentioned at the beginning of this >speel, grin, was I notice in my own culture, that being of Mexican-American >culture, when it seems you have been handed a certain lot in life that means >it is a chapter of your life ending, it usually means you have another door >open to something else. In plaintalk when something bad happens to my >relatives, they have this ability to simply start over even when they are in >their last years of living. For me anyway, starting over was after my >divorce in 1994 with nothing to my name, I had a net worth of zero. Now >that I have finally gotten the rest I need, I can see much more clearly the >steps I can take to fufilling a decent life for myself. >I remember telling myself when I got done with this book, Kress is not far >off the mark as far as the technology went, because remember, they are >trying to trademark or patent those DNA they are using for those code of >life books...makes me think about the possibilities. Ordering a child is >not that hard to do if you have the cash in our country. >Jo Ann ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:16:09 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kristina Solheim Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper- 2 stlyes Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:44 PM 6/23/2001 +1000, Maire wrote: >Having onyl bneen recently introduced to Tepper, I have, i the last 6 months >or so, read first The Singer from the Sea (at its release), then the Family >Tree, then in the last week, the Fresco, and now Sideshow. Maire, Sheri is my favorite writer of all time. My favorite books of hers are _A Plague of Angels_ (my first introduction to melding science fiction and fantasy) and _Grass_ (the best chase scene I've ever read and a GREAT description of the aliens like she also does in _Shadow's End_). I agree with the reviewer you mentioned that said _The Fresco_ was getting up on her soapbox. Her earlier stuff is much better. Though I think _Fresco_ is worth the read. _Gibbon's Decline and Fall_ starts to show how frustrated she is with the oppression of women around the globe. But I can totally see myself being just like her in my old age. :) My opinions will get the better of me. ciao! Kristina ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:17:37 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kristina Solheim Subject: Re: THe Tellin by le Guin Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:53 PM 6/23/2001 +1000, Maire wrote: >Question: are there any opinoins on le Guins latest, the Telling? I have >been 'saving' it, so Im interested in any reactions... I went to a session about it at Wiscon. Most of us agreed that the ending didn't work. The book is interesting and has some good moments, but it didn't seem long enough. It seemed as if she ended it rather abruptly (and all in summary form) at a point where I thought the climax of the story was still coming. I'd be interested to hear what you think. ciao! Kristina ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:00:14 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marilyn Gibson Subject: Re: BDG: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just have to say to Jennifer that a genetic prediliction for a disease is not a certainty that one is going to have it. I had lupus and my mother had lupus, but I used it as a life path in a way. My survival and the fact that I don't presently battle the disease enabled me to find answers I never would have found. Marilyn www.hangingbyastring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:37:29 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper- 2 stlyes Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20010625091109.0162d910@solheimk.pobox.stanford.ed u> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Kristina said: I agree with the reviewer you mentioned that said _The >Fresco_ was getting >up on her soapbox. What, compared to all her other stuff? (hee hee hee) I am a MAJOR TEPPER fan, have been since the day I picked up the first of the MARIANNE trilogy, and have everything (as far as I know) that she's published under Tepper, or her pseudonyms for mysteries (AJ Orde and BJ Oliphant -- last names are right, not sure about initials). I LOVED FRESCO--interesting to see her with a Hispanic protagonist, instead of Anglo, and the aliens are interesting. Yeah, they talk a great deal about how great their culture is, but then all is revealed, and the humans save the day -- I thought it was interesting in many ways. > Her earlier stuff is much better. Though I think >_Fresco_ is worth the read. _Gibbon's Decline and Fall_ starts to show how >frustrated she is with the oppression of women around the globe. But I can >totally see myself being just like her in my old age. :) My opinions will >get the better of me. Me too -- the more I read about the Taliban and how women are suffering so with AIDS in Africa, and other major problems that some women in America (white/middle and upper class, college educated, professional, etc) don't face, the more frustrated I get....then study a little history as well, sigh....and heck it's not like it's unprecedented. A bunch of RA Heinlein's later work is a total "rant," and people don't necessarily complain about that. Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:26:10 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: BDG: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This coming friday John Stossel(think thats how you spell his name) of 20/20 will have a special that discusses why there is no reason to be afraid of science and the wondrous new discoveries occuring right now in our current lifetime...there is supposed to be a segment about designer babies and cloning issues that may contribute with this book discussion. It is friday at 10pm Pacific although it may be on earlier central time you would need to check your local tv guide. I left some messages on my laptop so being here at the desktop I cannot retrieve them without an inordinate amount of frustration or an act of congress so, just wanted to say thanks for those who wrote to me about my earlier post. There is something else here Kress uses very effectively to get us all to think about our own personal situations and talk about these matters that are very close to us, the fear factor. Fear of what we do understand and how it creates this fear of both wanting to know whats what with us and at the same time, fearing what the outside of us contends us to have/be/become, if that makes sense? When you have been raised to live a certain way for so long, there is an unspoken underlying fear some people have that all of that can be lost in a moment in time. With others, there is a constant growing fear that what you have now will disappear in an instant. With Kress, it is sort of fear on a mass scale when the regular humans start treating the designer grownups as freaks, something to regulate because who knows what they will do when they reach full maturity they may take over the world then where will all the humans end up? The part that I had to reread because I lost the sense of belief was when the designer folks(am calling them that until I can locate my copy of the book on the shelf was moving a ton of stuff all weekend and I am so pooped!) begin their plans to live off planet. Until then I thought at the time, being the 1990s when I read this, that it was more of a current thing with me than more futuristic making spaceships or whathaveyou to live off planet, so it took me a time to think of the setting as futuristic even though there were plenty of clues about it, think it was just me trying to put my current time into the plot. Before I end this, just wanted to say sometimes it is nice to belong to the off topic list too, because some of the topics you cannot post here sometimes become very interesting discussions. There are times where both lists sort of sit dormant, but take it from me, when they both get lively it is very good to belong to both, grin. Hugs Jo Ann ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:40:27 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: BDG: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I found it disturbing too. I'm very much for supporting everyone in a society, but I have some family members who abuse the system, so I have mixed feelings about "beggars." I would like to think that most people who are getting social services are not like my cousins though and really do need the help. I know I need Medicaid in order to survive, but it's hell getting it. My old worker was a total bitch and made me feel like I was lazy, scummy, etc. because I don't work. She even had the nerve to ask, "Why bother with college if you can't work?" You'd think they'd want someone to better themselves in whatever way possible, but they just see it as if someone can go to college, they can work. But I'm going to college from home and I can't find a work at home job! I find it frustrating that in the US people are often defined by their jobs, rather than by who they are. There's so much more to me than just being a potential worker. Maybe if I hadn't gotten sick, I never would have stopped to think about it though. Maybe I just would have followed the herd. Wow, it's amazing what a book discussion can make me think of! Jennifer At 05:45 AM 6/25/01 +1000, you wrote: >Personally, I found the underlying idea in Beggars in Spain that inspired >alot of the debate in teh book very disturbing... ie that why should the >productive support the productive. Maybe cause I am not from the US, (am >from Aus)... maybe cause US is so capitialist with such a astong division >between rich and poor. I like to think that here, anyway, that is really not >the question. I just oculdnt stomach the idea at all, because it seems to >me, that nomatter how hard working, productive etc etc you are, you never >now what is around the corner- accident, disease, or divorce, depression, >substance dependancy, that might turn a productive person in to >non-productivce person.. and *vice versa* - a 'beggar' or street person, >wahtever, gets it together, and becomes productive. And then, who is to say >what is productive and hwat isnt? So you should never complain about >supporting the 'non-productive' cause (first of all, its a very dangerous >statemet to make, that someone is non-productive ie some people say that >single mothers are unproductive etc) and secondly, the productiove person >who doean see why they should use resources to support the non-producive, >might very well become non-productivce themselves - and bice versa. >So did I go on enough about that? : ) ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:09:58 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: BDG: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200106260101.tjg5oh.82a.37kbi66@bissell.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Marilyn Gibson wrote: > > I just have to say to Jennifer that a genetic prediliction for a > disease is not a certainty that one is going to have it. I had lupus > and my mother had lupus, but I used it as a life path in a way. My > survival and the fact that I don't presently battle the disease > enabled me to find answers I never would have found. Fair enough, but the difference is that if a genetic fix can be found then you would have to decide *not* to give it to a child and so remove any chance they they will get the disease. Your parents never had that option. To be quite honestly, with any serious condition like Lupus I can' imagine someone not getting such a fix for their child, any other alternative strikes me a cruel. I think most of us agree that the people who don't give their children medical care for religious reasons are possessed of a fairly dubious morality (personal, I think they are all nuts). While the idea of actually "improving" a child is quite controversial, merely removing the change that they will develop a dangerous, potentially deadly or debilitating disease quite honestly seems nothing more than an act of kindless and compassion. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:24:15 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: o members where art thou? Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi - this is the list-owner. when this list was created i asked for some self-appointed moderators, who would delicately point out to list members when conversation was straying from topic, and suggest to take those discussions to the other room, feministsf, for chat. could people who have taken on this task, or who wish to take on this task, please contact me off-list, please? at lquilter@feministsf.org -- gracias Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:45:18 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper- 2 stlyes Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010625133329.0096d7b0@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'm already like that and I'm only 27! I think I'll get more frustrated as I get older, unless things change an awful lot, but I doubt it. I totally agree about Heinlein! I haven't even read his later stuff, but I still see the ranting in his books. I wonder if people don't complain about him so much because he was male, or is it just the backlash against feminism that makes people so angry at Tepper. I get frustrated with feminist being a dirty word lately! I have a friend who practically had a stroke when I said I'm a feminist, yet he believes in equal rites for women! Jennifer At 01:37 PM 6/25/01 -0500, you wrote: >Me too -- the more I read about the Taliban and how women are suffering so >with AIDS in Africa, and other major problems that some women in America >(white/middle and upper class, college educated, professional, etc) don't >face, the more frustrated I get....then study a little history as well, >sigh....and heck it's not like it's unprecedented. A bunch of RA >Heinlein's later work is a total "rant," and people don't necessarily >complain about that. >Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:43:29 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marianne Reddin Aldrich Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper- 2 styles Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Uh, I've *never* noticed that people don't complain so much about Heinlein. I work in a bookstore with a huge sf selection, and most of my friends read a lot of sf, and I hear CONSTANTLY, "You know, I really liked Heinlein's juvies. And Stranger. But JEEZ. Those later books.... they really sucked. Rant rant rant," and words to that effect. I, on the other hand, really like ranty fiction, if I find the rants interesting (whether or not I agree with them), and I am really enjoying _Fresco_ (I'm only a few chapters in at the moment). One of the things I like about Tepper is that she seems to really make an effort (maybe too obvious of an effort) to make her characters 'ordinary', even beleaguered people, by society's standards. I mean, if someone said, "Battered Hispanic woman with two grown kids who STILL hasn't left her husband," your average person is not going to assume "chosen by aliens to smooth their introduction to humanity". I like that. > > I'm already like that and I'm only 27! I think I'll get more >frustrated as I get older, unless things change an awful lot, but I doubt >it. > > I totally agree about Heinlein! I haven't even read his later stuff, >but I still see the ranting in his books. I wonder if people don't >complain about him so much because he was male, or is it just the backlash >against feminism that makes people so angry at Tepper. I get frustrated >with feminist being a dirty word lately! I have a friend who practically >had a stroke when I said I'm a feminist, yet he believes in equal rites for >women! > Jennifer > > >At 01:37 PM 6/25/01 -0500, you wrote: >>Me too -- the more I read about the Taliban and how women are suffering so >>with AIDS in Africa, and other major problems that some women in America >>(white/middle and upper class, college educated, professional, etc) don't >>face, the more frustrated I get....then study a little history as well, >>sigh....and heck it's not like it's unprecedented. A bunch of RA >>Heinlein's later work is a total "rant," and people don't necessarily >>complain about that. >>Robin > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf-lit > >Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:55:59 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper- 2 stlyes Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010626014056.00ab1a10@mail.superior.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Jennifer: you wrote: > I'm already like that and I'm only 27! I think I'll get more >frustrated as I get older, unless things change an awful lot, but I doubt it. Hmmm, I'm turning 46 in November -- in my experience frustration increases, but there are differences in energy levels and response time! > I totally agree about Heinlein! I haven't even read his later stuff, >but I still see the ranting in his books. I wonder if people don't >complain about him so much because he was male, or is it just the backlash >against feminism that makes people so angry at Tepper. What is also frustrating is that many feminist critics don't like Tepper at all -- different theories of feminism I guess! Some anger (from any side) might also be related to her success--all her books are in print, apparently selling well--and in the eighties, there was some complaining that "women" were driving men out of sf (hah, the author taking up the most room on bookshelves I see is Piers Anthony, but the tie-in books, the TREK, STAR WARS, etc. books seem to be taking over a lot of the science fiction section). But maybe it's just because she expresses these ideas so well! But a lot of feminist sf writers have received negative commentary from people. (and women writers in general--have you read Joanna Russ' HOW TO SUPPRESS WOMEN'S WRITING? Well worth a look.) > I get frustrated >with feminist being a dirty word lately! I have a friend who practically >had a stroke when I said I'm a feminist, yet he believes in equal rites for >women! Lately? Sigh, as I recall from personal experience and reading about 19th century feminist movements, it's more or less always been so, for a century plus! But there was a real backlash in the eighties--during that decade, I used to note that "feminist" was the "other f-word" -- the worse one, that it was quite ok socially to say fuck, but saying "feminist" resulted in all sorts of horror. (Of course in the seventies, I was told by different poeple that I could not be a feminist BECAUSE 1) I was too nice (?????), and 2) I wore skirts...) But yeah, lots of "I'm not a feminist but" statements these days: women who have benefitted from the activism of MANY feminists quite happy to take the benefits but distance themselves from the movements... Robin ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:27:51 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: BDG: Beggars in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 4 Jun 2001, Misha Bernard asked: >gut reactions to the novel? Like it, hate it, can't believe it, it was too >disturbingly real? [...] what do people think of the likelihood of Kress' >future, or a similar one? Are the Sleepless a potential -- or any >privileged minority that has more access to power? I had a mixed reaction to *Beggars in Spain*. On the plus side, I liked that I couldn't guess how the plot was going to unfold -- new characters and events kept surprising me. And I found individual moments, like the end of Book I, very powerful. On the minus side, I thought the basic premise of sleeplessness was absurd the way it was presented (sleep evolved to keep animals hidden away from predators? puh-leeease.) and the argument that lies at the heart of the book (the place of "beggars" in society) was poorly developed. In an interview (available at http://www.lysator.liu.se/lsff/mb- nr28/Interview_with_Nancy_Kress.html), Kress says that Yagaiism and by extension the characterization of Sleepers as "beggars" is based on Ayn Rand's objectivism, a worldview which Kress herself "eventually outgrew [...] as many people do". Yet nearly all of the Sleepless in Sanctuary, who are supposed to be so much more smart and productive because they don't need to sleep, still haven't outgrown this philosophy after 70+ years! They continue to make gross overgeneralizations about Sleepers and pursue a rigid "us vs. them" agenda that is out of all proportion to the situation, even later on in the "Liver" stage of history, when most people seem to have forgotten the Sleepless exist. Am I alone in thinking these folks aren't very smart after all? Maybe part of the problem is the way intelligence is portrayed in the book. Most of the characters seem to assume that "intelligence" is an attribute that merely makes people more efficient and able to work, work, work better than people who have less of it. More discoveries, more inventions in the pursuit of economic growth and a new manifest destiny. (It's so American! No surprise, then, that the world outside of the US plays a negligible role in the book.) I kept thinking, "Who says intelligence has to feed the GNP? Where's the fun? Where's the art? Where's the subtlety?" The last two books, "Dreamers" and "Beggars", take a whack at these questions, but I didn't find them satisfying. The whole novel seemed to be arguing that the Sleepless weren't actually "better" than the Sleepers, yet along come the Supers, who easily see the flaws in their parents' thinking and appear to be better, more moral people simply because they are subtler, more far-reaching thinkers. Huh? Where does the author really stand here? And the lucid dreaming plot line seemed too little, too late. I couldn't help wondering why none of these geniuses had thought of the possible benefits of dreaming 300 pages ago. I did enjoy how the book highlighted the relationships between women. Leisha's bond with Alice was intriguing and ultimately mysterious. Were we supposed to believe they had a psychic connection? I wasn't sure. It made me laugh to think of Leisha getting a bouquet of flowers EVERY DAY from her sister -- the thoughtfulness that was still somehow aggressive read true to me. And though I was frustrated by Leisha's dryly rational personality and her fear of emotion, I was relieved that her epiphany and optimism at the end of the book was unconnected to a romance. In sum, I found that despite its flaws the book did engage me and made me want to argue with it, which is a measure of success, I suppose. Now it's time to go home, enjoy some "unproductive" music or television, and eventually drift off to sleep ^Ö- a refreshing habit I would never want to do without! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Radiohead -- Amnesiac "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 22:01:59 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marilyn Gibson Subject: Re: BDG: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem with your premise is the side effects. As I look back on it, I feel that it was by no means certain that I would get lupus when I did. I can pinpoint the reason for the first flare and, if I had known, would not have had all my wisdom teeth out at once at that time of stress, in addition to the sulfa drugs that initiated a flare which was a result of emotional stress as well as toxic drugs. Who is to say that another prophylactic drug would have less of an effect and, in preventing a disease, would lead to an even greater one? Marilyn www.hangingbyastring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:54:31 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Susan Hericks Subject: BDG: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janice wrote: snip> Maybe part of the problem is the way intelligence is portrayed in the book. >Most of the characters seem to assume that "intelligence" is an attribute that merely makes people more efficient and able to work, work, work better than people who have less of it. More discoveries, more inventions in the pursuit of economic growth and a new manifest destiny. (It's so American!...>Where's the fun? Where's the art? Where's the subtlety?" > This was one of the things that really bothered me about the sleepless (and the premise of what they were like). All they seemed to use their extra time for was work. There were never any artists or musicians or mystics among them. Late in the book one of them comments how the sleepless have never been interested in (collecting) art. How absurd! I also felt like the opening promise of the book that the sleepless would be completely joyous was a total lie. For people who were never supposed to be depressed, they were still grasping, scheming and hateful toward anyone not like them (for the most part). Aside from the children in the playground, I don't recall much joy or fun at all. At the end, I couldn't buy Leisha's optimism that Jennifer would change. Anyone who would kill their own children because their difference was too much of a threat is not going to just come around to giving peace a chance. At the same time, Jennifer was so one dimensional that she was east to hate, easy to see as the evil manipulator. In general, I felt that the characters were not fleshed out well, even Leisha. Miri seemed the most engaging to me. It struck me that the slight physical grotesqueness of the "supers" and the response to their difference was in some contrast to the response to the first sleepless, who were unusually beautiful. It's not so much their different way of thinking that sets them apart from their parents and grandparents but their stammering and twitching and big wobbly heads. Interesting. I agree with Janice that the lucid dreaming was a little to late, and perhaps too obvious, yet I was glad that dreaming came back as an important link to (at least) problem solving and creativity. Yes, those super-smart sleepless did seem pretty dumb to not figure that out sooner! >From the Things- I -Will-Never-Say files, I actually overheard a woman tonight saying what a waste of time sleep is, that there is so much to do! Now there's someone understimating the incredible work of the sleeping brain (and the sheer pleasure of sleep itself)! It was difficult for me to accept the "science" of the book that sleep could be safely and profitabley eliminated. And yet it is a fascinating idea. Like others, I was left feeling the book was interesting enough to grapple with, but pretty flawed in many ways. And now I'm off to "waste" 8 or 9 hours sleeping! Susan ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 23:16:55 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Cronin Subject: Re: BDG: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >From the Things- I -Will-Never-Say files, I actually overheard a woman > tonight saying what a waste of time sleep is, that there is so much to do! > Now there's someone understimating the incredible work of the sleeping brain > (and the sheer pleasure of sleep itself)! It was difficult for me to accept > the "science" of the book that sleep could be safely and profitabley > eliminated. And yet it is a fascinating idea. Another, similar, fascinating idea was presented in a recent short story in Asimov's (don't have it right here, sorry!); it presented a world where there's a drug that could postpone puberty, allowing children to remain more productive, etc., without the raging hormones. The idea was that once they were out of school, they'd take the reversal drug, but many of them chose not to. They have the physical disadvantage of small stature and they had to fight for their rights as full adult citizens. For a short story, it went over a lot of interesting (to me, anyway) ground. Did anyone else catch that story? -Sandy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:27:18 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: BDG: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was one thing that bugged me about the sleepless thing as well...in our current time science has concluded that sleeptime is when the brain goes to work repairing itself when damaged...thus I was thinking how can Supers become the way they are if their brain never repairs basic elements, unless this was the point Kress was trying to have us consider, that being those little nips tucks and repairs are what kept most normal sleeping people from going mad or from taking extremes in normal everyday activities whereas someone deprived of opportunities because they never gave the brain a chance to catchup and do its routine matainance is like running a car until it is out of oil and you burn up the engine? Even though the functioning adult has what appears to be this super work ethic to do twice as much in life as someone who sleeps, the toll on the brain I would think would have to be close to an obssessive quality or result eventually having never had a chance to have rest to repair tissue? And maybe sleep being taken away and not missed is like having our imaginations taken away, because we no longer need to dream because we supposedly think and work twice as long as a normal person imagination is no longer needed because something gets made created or invented based on pure thought process, leaving the fantasy/dreamtime sort of stuff out of the equation. Jo Ann who has some pretty neat ideas arrive to her during sleep last night wink ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 02:04:24 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: BDG: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <000901c0ff3f$2f8d8440$378db3d1@w95s> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with what you were saying... it was hard to accpet that 1. sleep could be successfulyy removed with absolutely no ill effects mentally, physically, emotionally 2. that it actually had benefits : made the sleeples more stable, able to better ustilise their brains resources resulting in well balanced, and highly productive people 3. removing sleep somehow also removed teh aging mechanism But- as hard as it perhaps to swallow, I think that you do have to swallow in order to read the boook..... there would be no point writing abook about sleepless who did suffer ill effects- part of the controversy arises from the fact that the 'authors rule' in the books is that these people o have the sleep mechanism removed, that it does result in huge advantages- and there are no ill effects that would give as a handle to aargue against being sleepless. (does that make sense *at all* !) When reading the book, I found it hard to know which 'side' I was on.. whilst the sleepless- or the sleepless that is the protagnist anyway- is the more sypathetic charcter/ side... I occasionally founf it hard because it waas the sleepless (designated the goodies) against the sleepers (to hwich category I belong) Usually if there is some group or person who has some speriority to you (or me, rather) you can say well 'they may be Olympiuc athletes but who would want to do all that training etc etc.... but with the Sleepless-- you are not allowed to say 'yes, but think of all the damage being done to hte brain' cause the sleepless mechanism is presented by the author- whos rules we must abide by- as as having no ill effects, but only myriad advantages. I probably should have left that one to somone else to explain better! Maire -----Original Message----- From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Jo Ann Rangel Sent: Thursday, 28 June 2001 5:27 AM To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain There was one thing that bugged me about the sleepless thing as well...in our current time science has concluded that sleeptime is when the brain goes to work repairing itself when damaged...thus I was thinking how can Supers become the way they are if their brain never repairs basic elements, unless this was the point Kress was trying to have us consider, that being those little nips tucks and repairs are what kept most normal sleeping people from going mad or from taking extremes in normal everyday activities whereas someone deprived of opportunities because they never gave the brain a chance to catchup and do its routine matainance is like running a car until it is out of oil and you burn up the engine? Even though the functioning adult has what appears to be this super work ethic to do twice as much in life as someone who sleeps, the toll on the brain I would think would have to be close to an obssessive quality or result eventually having never had a chance to have rest to repair tissue? And maybe sleep being taken away and not missed is like having our imaginations taken away, because we no longer need to dream because we supposedly think and work twice as long as a normal person imagination is no longer needed because something gets made created or invented based on pure thought process, leaving the fantasy/dreamtime sort of stuff out of the equation. Jo Ann who has some pretty neat ideas arrive to her during sleep last night wink ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems.