From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:51:48 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:40 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0106E" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 22:22:44 +0200 Reply-To: divadiane9@compuserve.de Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Diane Severson Subject: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Hi Janice, It could be that I am remembering this incorrectly, however, I was under the impression that Leisha was the only one of the older generation Sleepless who remained a Yagaiist. It was the Supers led by Miri who claimed also to be Yagaiists. Diane On 27 Jun 2001, at 0:01, Automatic digest processor wrote: > In an interview (available at http://www.lysator.liu.se/lsff/mb- > nr28/Interview_with_Nancy_Kress.html), Kress says that Yagaiism and by > extension the characterization of Sleepers as "beggars" is based on > Ayn Rand's objectivism, a worldview which Kress herself "eventually > outgrew [...] as many people do". Yet nearly all of the Sleepless in > Sanctuary, who are supposed to be so much more smart and productive > because they don't need to sleep, still haven't outgrown this > philosophy after 70+ years! They continue to make gross > overgeneralizations about Sleepers and pursue a rigid "us vs. them" > agenda that is out of all proportion to the situation, even later on > in the "Liver" stage of history, when most people seem to have > forgotten the Sleepless exist. Am I alone in thinking these folks > aren't very smart after all? ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 15:52:13 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Heather Stark Subject: Re: BDG: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Haven't quite finished Beggars, due to higgledy piggledy order of mail order arrival. But I absolutely agree with Janice & Susan: Janice: Most of the characters seem to assume that "intelligence" is an attribute that merely makes people more efficient and able to work, work, work better... "....Where's the fun? Where's the art? Where's the subtlety?" Susan: All they seemed to use their extra time for was work. There were never any artists or musicians or mystics among them. This one sidedness is the theme that resonates with many list commentators, in one way or another. For me, the sleepless 'enhancement' was like an exaggerated version of the personality traits I co-exist with every day - and, too often, for much of the night...;-) - in my workplace. I think this is making it difficult for me to get enthusiastic about reading about more of the same.... cheers, Heather p.s. (Have finished Gumshoe and BrainPlague...which arrived earlier. Gumshoe: fun. BrainPlague: amazing. Look forward to picking up discussion on these, when they kick off.). -----Original Message----- From: Janice E. Dawley To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Date: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 10:27 PM Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain >On Mon, 4 Jun 2001, Misha Bernard asked: >>gut reactions to the novel? Like it, hate it, can't believe it, it was too >>disturbingly real? [...] what do people think of the likelihood of Kress' >>future, or a similar one? Are the Sleepless a potential -- or any >>privileged minority that has more access to power? > >I had a mixed reaction to *Beggars in Spain*. On the plus side, I liked >that I couldn't guess how the plot was going to unfold -- new characters >and events kept surprising me. And I found individual moments, like the end >of Book I, very powerful. On the minus side, I thought the basic premise of >sleeplessness was absurd the way it was presented (sleep evolved to keep >animals hidden away from predators? puh-leeease.) and the argument that >lies at the heart of the book (the place of "beggars" in society) was >poorly developed. > >In an interview (available at http://www.lysator.liu.se/lsff/mb- >nr28/Interview_with_Nancy_Kress.html), Kress says that Yagaiism and by >extension the characterization of Sleepers as "beggars" is based on Ayn >Rand's objectivism, a worldview which Kress herself "eventually outgrew >[...] as many people do". Yet nearly all of the Sleepless in Sanctuary, who >are supposed to be so much more smart and productive because they don't >need to sleep, still haven't outgrown this philosophy after 70+ years! They >continue to make gross overgeneralizations about Sleepers and pursue a >rigid "us vs. them" agenda that is out of all proportion to the situation, >even later on in the "Liver" stage of history, when most people seem to >have forgotten the Sleepless exist. Am I alone in thinking these folks >aren't very smart after all? > >Maybe part of the problem is the way intelligence is portrayed in the book. >Most of the characters seem to assume that "intelligence" is an attribute >that merely makes people more efficient and able to work, work, work better >than people who have less of it. More discoveries, more inventions in the >pursuit of economic growth and a new manifest destiny. (It's so American! >No surprise, then, that the world outside of the US plays a negligible role >in the book.) I kept thinking, "Who says intelligence has to feed the GNP? >Where's the fun? Where's the art? Where's the subtlety?" > >The last two books, "Dreamers" and "Beggars", take a whack at these >questions, but I didn't find them satisfying. The whole novel seemed to be >arguing that the Sleepless weren't actually "better" than the Sleepers, yet >along come the Supers, who easily see the flaws in their parents' thinking >and appear to be better, more moral people simply because they are subtler, >more far-reaching thinkers. Huh? Where does the author really stand here? >And the lucid dreaming plot line seemed too little, too late. I couldn't >help wondering why none of these geniuses had thought of the possible >benefits of dreaming 300 pages ago. > >I did enjoy how the book highlighted the relationships between women. >Leisha's bond with Alice was intriguing and ultimately mysterious. Were we >supposed to believe they had a psychic connection? I wasn't sure. It made >me laugh to think of Leisha getting a bouquet of flowers EVERY DAY from her >sister -- the thoughtfulness that was still somehow aggressive read true to >me. And though I was frustrated by Leisha's dryly rational personality and >her fear of emotion, I was relieved that her epiphany and optimism at the >end of the book was unconnected to a romance. > >In sum, I found that despite its flaws the book did engage me and made me >want to argue with it, which is a measure of success, I suppose. Now it's >time to go home, enjoy some "unproductive" music or television, and >eventually drift off to sleep ^Ö- a refreshing habit I would never want to >do without! > >----- >Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT >http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ >Listening to: Radiohead -- Amnesiac >"...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; >the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and >servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf-lit > >Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems.