From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:51:52 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:40 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0107A" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 13:05:38 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Where is everyone!!! (also query tornor chronciles) Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200106231728.MAA15114@daedalus.cc.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I must say that i am astonished at the lack of activity on the list..... is every one really really busy? : ) I have watchtower and Northern Girl, which are the 1 and third in the Chnoicles of Tornor. So my question is that is the middle book as good as the others? I know it isnt told from a female POV... and I must say that the cover picture of a beefy male barbarian typoe doenst inspire confidnece!So I was basically jut wondering whether people thought it was worth reading/ buying? Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 23:32:05 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: BDG: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200106262127.QAA19560@listserv.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I also found the basic idea behind Sleeplessness hard to accept. And the fact that all they used their extra time for was work made me think they would get bored- especially with no art and no creativity. Did they even read novels and if they did, was it possible for them to enjoy books (or enjoy any art for that matter)? I too enjoyed the relationships between women in the book. I liked how Leisha and Alice were used to show contrast between Sleepers and Sleepless. And now that you mention it, it was nice that Leisha didn't wake up because of a relationship. I thought it would be something she was endlessly searching for after her few failed relationships in the book, but it was nice to see her without a man in her life later on. Jennifer- very agreeable tonight :) At 04:27 PM 6/26/01 -0500, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > On the minus side, I thought the basic premise of >sleeplessness was absurd the way it was presented (sleep evolved to keep >animals hidden away from predators? puh-leeease.) >Maybe part of the problem is the way intelligence is portrayed in the book. >Most of the characters seem to assume that "intelligence" is an attribute >that merely makes people more efficient and able to work, work, work better >than people who have less of it. More discoveries, more inventions in the >pursuit of economic growth and a new manifest destiny. (It's so American! >No surprise, then, that the world outside of the US plays a negligible role >in the book.) I kept thinking, "Who says intelligence has to feed the GNP? >Where's the fun? Where's the art? Where's the subtlety?" >I did enjoy how the book highlighted the relationships between women. >Leisha's bond with Alice was intriguing and ultimately mysterious. Were we >supposed to believe they had a psychic connection? I wasn't sure. It made >me laugh to think of Leisha getting a bouquet of flowers EVERY DAY from her >sister -- the thoughtfulness that was still somehow aggressive read true to >me. And though I was frustrated by Leisha's dryly rational personality and >her fear of emotion, I was relieved that her epiphany and optimism at the >end of the book was unconnected to a romance. > >In sum, I found that despite its flaws the book did engage me and made me >want to argue with it, which is a measure of success, I suppose. Now it's >time to go home, enjoy some "unproductive" music or television, and >eventually drift off to sleep ­- a refreshing habit I would never want to >do without! > >Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 23:39:38 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Where is everyone!!! (also query tornor chronciles) Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I liked The Northern Girl best, but The Dancers of Arun was pretty good. I liked the women characters and the fact that the main character was disabled. There was something I found disturbing about it that I won't mention because of spoilers. The beefy male is a bit idealized in the book, but the book is more about his brother than it is about him (the beefy guy isn't the main character in the book). I thought the whole trilogy was well worth the read. Jennifer At 01:05 PM 7/1/01 +1000, you wrote: >I must say that i am astonished at the lack of activity on the list..... is >every one really really busy? : ) >I have watchtower and Northern Girl, which are the 1 and third in the >Chnoicles of Tornor. >So my question is that is the middle book as good as the others? I know it >isnt told from a female POV... and I must say that the cover picture of a >beefy male barbarian typoe doenst inspire confidnece!So I was basically jut >wondering whether people thought it was worth reading/ buying? >Maire ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 14:04:15 +0200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rowena Subject: Re: Where is everyone!!! (also query tornor chronciles) Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 1 Jul 2001, at 13:05, Maire wrote: > I must say that i am astonished at the lack of activity on the > list..... is every one really really busy? : ) > hi Maire, I have a bit of a health problem and it drags and drags on and on and drains my energy a bit, so I function a bit on a low level, my participation on this list suffers a bit. have watchtower and Northern Girl, which are the 1 and third in the > Chnoicles of Tornor. So my question is that is the middle book as good > as the others? I know it isnt told from a female POV... and I must say > that the cover picture of a beefy male barbarian typoe doenst inspire > confidnece!So I was basically jut wondering whether people thought it > was worth reading/ buying? Maire > yes, I think it is worth it, all three volumes are a bit different, but they definately share a smiliar tone and interest, so if you like the other ones my guess would be you'll like this one. Rowena ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:08:29 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: General book talk - the Ill Made Mute (was where is everyone?) Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <3B407F5F.11402.635A5F@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks heaps everyone who repleid to my question... I dont wuite know whether to be happy or not about the fact you think the second chrnoicle of Tornor will be worth it! Goodness knows I have enough books languishing on the shelves! I was delighted yesterday - I was in Borders and had a look in their Value section- heaps of excellent sf hardcovers under $Aus $10 like Pamela Sargent, Joan D. Vinge, C J Cherrh, le guin. So I was quite the happy little vegemite! btw, has anyone here heard of 'The Il-Made Mute' by Cecilia Dart-Thornton? Its Book 1 in the Bitterbynde series- she is a new Australian author being touted (or marketed should I say) as Asutralia's answer to JK Rowling... she has excellent reviews by Andre Norton (comparison to LoTR), Elizabeth Hand etc... I'm just started it, after having been attracted by 1. the prominent display in the bookshop (being honest here) 2. the little special sticker they had on the cover with Andre Nortons review 2. the title.. 'Ill-Made Mute- I love it!; and cover (very autumny) 3. the fact she is a new Australian woman author 4. the blurb- seems very interesting and original ideas, plus same for the wriitng style. Now that I have started it I am enoying it thouroughly. There's perhaps a little bumbling in the writing which I have noticed is very much a chacteristic of new writers (particularly in fantasy) but I dont know if anyone else would notice that, or whether its just me. Hoping veyr much to hear others' opinions- but I guess its not even out in the US yet. Which reminds me, the rights were snapped up in the US for $AU million !!!!!!!! Pretty good for an unknown Aussies debut eh? Given me a new jolt of enthusiasm for my own writing ambitions anyway! Maire -----Original Message----- From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Rowena Sent: Monday, 2 July 2001 10:04 PM To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Where is everyone!!! (also query tornor chronciles) On 1 Jul 2001, at 13:05, Maire wrote: > I must say that i am astonished at the lack of activity on the > list..... is every one really really busy? : ) > hi Maire, I have a bit of a health problem and it drags and drags on and on and drains my energy a bit, so I function a bit on a low level, my participation on this list suffers a bit. have watchtower and Northern Girl, which are the 1 and third in the > Chnoicles of Tornor. So my question is that is the middle book as good > as the others? I know it isnt told from a female POV... and I must say > that the cover picture of a beefy male barbarian typoe doenst inspire > confidnece!So I was basically jut wondering whether people thought it > was worth reading/ buying? Maire > yes, I think it is worth it, all three volumes are a bit different, but they definately share a smiliar tone and interest, so if you like the other ones my guess would be you'll like this one. Rowena ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 12:08:56 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: FW: [*FSF-L*] General book talk - the Ill Made Mute (was where is everyone?) Comments: To: femsf lit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Alison Hendon [mailto:alison@vabish.com] Sent: Tuesday, 3 July 2001 12:11 AM To: Maire Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] General book talk - the Ill Made Mute (was where is everyone?) Hi Maire - the Ill Made Mute got some VERY good reviews here in the US and is coming out in the next month or so I believe. I think Kirkus (a very tough and quirky review source) gave it a star which is their highest rating. I'm looking forward to reading it when we get it at the library (soon I hope). Alison writing personally partly because I can't seem to post to the list, please forward if you like > Thanks heaps everyone who repleid to my question... I dont wuite know > whether to be happy or not about the fact you think the second chrnoicle of > Tornor will be worth it! Goodness knows I have enough books languishing on > the shelves! > I was delighted yesterday - I was in Borders and had a look in their Value > section- heaps of excellent sf hardcovers under $Aus $10 like Pamela > Sargent, Joan D. Vinge, C J Cherrh, le guin. So I was quite the happy little > vegemite! > btw, has anyone here heard of 'The Il-Made Mute' by Cecilia Dart-Thornton? > Its Book 1 in the Bitterbynde series- she is a new Australian author being > touted (or marketed should I say) as Asutralia's answer to JK Rowling... she > has excellent reviews by Andre Norton (comparison to LoTR), Elizabeth Hand > etc... I'm just started it, after having been attracted by 1. the prominent > display in the bookshop (being honest here) 2. the little special sticker > they had on the cover with Andre Nortons review 2. the title.. 'Ill-Made > Mute- I love it!; and cover (very autumny) 3. the fact she is a new > Australian woman author 4. the blurb- seems very interesting and original > ideas, plus same for the wriitng style. > Now that I have started it I am enoying it thouroughly. There's perhaps a > little bumbling in the writing which I have noticed is very much a > chacteristic of new writers (particularly in fantasy) but I dont know if > anyone else would notice that, or whether its just me. Hoping veyr much to > hear others' opinions- but I guess its not even out in the US yet. Which > reminds me, the rights were snapped up in the US for $AU million !!!!!!!! > Pretty good for an unknown Aussies debut eh? Given me a new jolt of > enthusiasm for my own writing ambitions anyway! > Maire > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Rowena > Sent: Monday, 2 July 2001 10:04 PM > To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Where is everyone!!! (also query tornor > chronciles) > > > On 1 Jul 2001, at 13:05, Maire wrote: > > > I must say that i am astonished at the lack of activity on the > > list..... is every one really really busy? : ) > > > hi Maire, > > I have a bit of a health problem and it drags and drags on and on > and drains my energy a bit, so I function a bit on a low level, my > participation on this list suffers a bit. > > have watchtower and Northern Girl, which are the 1 and third in the > > Chnoicles of Tornor. So my question is that is the middle book as good > > as the others? I know it isnt told from a female POV... and I must say > > that the cover picture of a beefy male barbarian typoe doenst inspire > > confidnece!So I was basically jut wondering whether people thought it > > was worth reading/ buying? Maire > > > > yes, I think it is worth it, all three volumes are a bit different, but > they definately share a smiliar tone and interest, so if you like the > other ones my guess would be you'll like this one. > > Rowena > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf-lit > > Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf-lit > > Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > Alison Hendon alison@vabish.com "Though my soul may set in darkness, It will rise in perfect light, I have loved the stars too fondly To be fearful of the night...." - Sarah Williams, "The Old Astronomer to His Pupil" ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 07:24:34 -0700 Reply-To: publicity@mystgalaxy.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: DANCERS OF ARUN Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I found this the most emotionally satisfying of the trilogy, FWIW. Maryelizabeth waiting to tell everyone who hasn't read WAR FOR THE OAKS to run out and get it -- any day now! -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 12:28:50 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: FW: [*FSF-L*] General book talk - the Ill Made Mute (was where is everyone?) Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi- thanks Alison, (I forwarded your post on- hope OK with you!) Thats very interesting, I was not sure how much exposure Astralian books and so on got in the US. However, given the investment the US publishing house made in the series, perhaps it is not that suprising that they paid a lot of attention to marketing! Perhaps I could nominate it for discussion in a few months- if it is as good as I'm hoping, anyway. Just because I love finding new *good* sf&f by women- particualrly new authors Until then, if you do read it, could you tell me so that we can have our own mini-discussion? (if you are agreeable, of course!) Maire -----Original Message----- From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Maire Sent: Monday, 2 July 2001 12:09 PM To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSF-L*] FW: [*FSF-L*] General book talk - the Ill Made Mute (was where is everyone?) -----Original Message----- From: Alison Hendon [mailto:alison@vabish.com] Sent: Tuesday, 3 July 2001 12:11 AM To: Maire Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] General book talk - the Ill Made Mute (was where is everyone?) Hi Maire - the Ill Made Mute got some VERY good reviews here in the US and is coming out in the next month or so I believe. I think Kirkus (a very tough and quirky review source) gave it a star which is their highest rating. I'm looking forward to reading it when we get it at the library (soon I hope). Alison writing personally partly because I can't seem to post to the list, please forward if you like > Thanks heaps everyone who repleid to my question... I dont wuite know > whether to be happy or not about the fact you think the second chrnoicle of > Tornor will be worth it! Goodness knows I have enough books languishing on > the shelves! > I was delighted yesterday - I was in Borders and had a look in their Value > section- heaps of excellent sf hardcovers under $Aus $10 like Pamela > Sargent, Joan D. Vinge, C J Cherrh, le guin. So I was quite the happy little > vegemite! > btw, has anyone here heard of 'The Il-Made Mute' by Cecilia Dart-Thornton? > Its Book 1 in the Bitterbynde series- she is a new Australian author being > touted (or marketed should I say) as Asutralia's answer to JK Rowling... she > has excellent reviews by Andre Norton (comparison to LoTR), Elizabeth Hand > etc... I'm just started it, after having been attracted by 1. the prominent > display in the bookshop (being honest here) 2. the little special sticker > they had on the cover with Andre Nortons review 2. the title.. 'Ill-Made > Mute- I love it!; and cover (very autumny) 3. the fact she is a new > Australian woman author 4. the blurb- seems very interesting and original > ideas, plus same for the wriitng style. > Now that I have started it I am enoying it thouroughly. There's perhaps a > little bumbling in the writing which I have noticed is very much a > chacteristic of new writers (particularly in fantasy) but I dont know if > anyone else would notice that, or whether its just me. Hoping veyr much to > hear others' opinions- but I guess its not even out in the US yet. Which > reminds me, the rights were snapped up in the US for $AU million !!!!!!!! > Pretty good for an unknown Aussies debut eh? Given me a new jolt of > enthusiasm for my own writing ambitions anyway! > Maire > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Rowena > Sent: Monday, 2 July 2001 10:04 PM > To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Where is everyone!!! (also query tornor > chronciles) > > > On 1 Jul 2001, at 13:05, Maire wrote: > > > I must say that i am astonished at the lack of activity on the > > list..... is every one really really busy? : ) > > > hi Maire, > > I have a bit of a health problem and it drags and drags on and on > and drains my energy a bit, so I function a bit on a low level, my > participation on this list suffers a bit. > > have watchtower and Northern Girl, which are the 1 and third in the > > Chnoicles of Tornor. So my question is that is the middle book as good > > as the others? I know it isnt told from a female POV... and I must say > > that the cover picture of a beefy male barbarian typoe doenst inspire > > confidnece!So I was basically jut wondering whether people thought it > > was worth reading/ buying? Maire > > > > yes, I think it is worth it, all three volumes are a bit different, but > they definately share a smiliar tone and interest, so if you like the > other ones my guess would be you'll like this one. > > Rowena > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf-lit > > Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf-lit > > Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > Alison Hendon alison@vabish.com "Though my soul may set in darkness, It will rise in perfect light, I have loved the stars too fondly To be fearful of the night...." - Sarah Williams, "The Old Astronomer to His Pupil" ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 17:35:23 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Margaret McBride Subject: Re: BDG: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The comments about Beggars in Spain and some discussions I had at WisCon have made me more aware of what makes me respond most strongly to fiction (and what books get on my reread list). I like books where the characters have to make moral decisions and then have to live with those decisions; I like books where characters change. I enjoy the plot only books too, of course, but the ones that stay with me are ones that make me think in some way. Beggars in Spain fulfills those criteria plus I got involved with the characters and the story while I was reading it. I've found it interesting how many of the comments on line this time have related the book directly to personal lives. If not directly, we are all indirectly making choices that resonate with this book all the time: How much money do we think the government should give to a woman with 2 kids on welfare? Did you know that at various times some states wouldn't give welfare if an "able-bodied man" was in the house? I've taught essays dealing with welfare in writing classes and there is a lot of conflict about how we deal with poverty...questions I think this book raises beautifully. I am willing to give it some slack for suspension of disbelief problems because of the issues it raises. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 03:02:25 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: BDG: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010702173523.007e3100@oregon.uoregon.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Margaret wrote: How much money do we think the government should give to a woman with 2 kids on welfare? Maire: To me, the issue is more: how much money should the govt give to two kids in a family with no income... -----Original Message----- From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Margaret McBride Sent: Tuesday, 3 July 2001 10:35 AM To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain The comments about Beggars in Spain and some discussions I had at WisCon have made me more aware of what makes me respond most strongly to fiction (and what books get on my reread list). I like books where the characters have to make moral decisions and then have to live with those decisions; I like books where characters change. I enjoy the plot only books too, of course, but the ones that stay with me are ones that make me think in some way. Beggars in Spain fulfills those criteria plus I got involved with the characters and the story while I was reading it. I've found it interesting how many of the comments on line this time have related the book directly to personal lives. If not directly, we are all indirectly making choices that resonate with this book all the time: How much money do we think the government should give to a woman with 2 kids on welfare? Did you know that at various times some states wouldn't give welfare if an "able-bodied man" was in the house? I've taught essays dealing with welfare in writing classes and there is a lot of conflict about how we deal with poverty...questions I think this book raises beautifully. I am willing to give it some slack for suspension of disbelief problems because of the issues it raises. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:57:20 +1200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jenn Martin Subject: Re: children (formally BDG: Beggars) Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >Another, similar, fascinating idea was presented in a recent short story in >Asimov's (don't have it right here, sorry!); it presented a world where >there's >a drug that could postpone puberty, allowing children to remain more >productive, >etc., without the raging hormones. The idea was that once they were out of >school, they'd take the reversal drug, but many of them chose not to. They >have >the physical disadvantage of small stature and they had to fight for their >rights as full adult citizens. For a short story, it went over a lot of >interesting (to me, anyway) ground. Did anyone else catch that story? > > -Sandy > this is a little late in the picture now.. but that Azimov story reminds me of a fascinating story I read by Ursula Le Guin once, in which people grew to thirty and then grew young again, so that there were very wise children in the house, with 40-50 years of life experience, who eventually became infants again, incapable of caring for themselves. I think it's in The Compass Rose. Jenn _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:15:10 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: children (formally BDG: Beggars) Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read a story in, I *think* one of Garnder Dovois' anual collections... One the one hand earth is severely oberpopulated, on the other hand, people refuse to be deprived oft he right to enjoy having children. The solution? Children are 'stopped' at whichever age the parents choose, say 4, or 7.. in this case I think the age was 11. Anyway, they are prevented from aging any further, and so remain at that age indefinately. Some sort of 'randomisation' mechanism is used on their brains, to ensure that they keep on having new thoughts and feelings etc.... if anyone can remmeber the name of this story, please post it, because it was one of the most thought-provoking stories I have read in som e time, if ever. As the mother of a 2-year old, I constantly wish that she could remain this age, but know that it is her birth right to grow up and have her own life (of course). Could over population, and the egocentricity that is a result of our ever increasing technological capecities, ever combine to make a solution such as this one acceptable? Maire -----Original Message----- From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Jenn Martin Sent: Tuesday, 3 July 2001 9:57 PM To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] children (formally BDG: Beggars) > >Another, similar, fascinating idea was presented in a recent short story in >Asimov's (don't have it right here, sorry!); it presented a world where >there's >a drug that could postpone puberty, allowing children to remain more >productive, >etc., without the raging hormones. The idea was that once they were out of >school, they'd take the reversal drug, but many of them chose not to. They >have >the physical disadvantage of small stature and they had to fight for their >rights as full adult citizens. For a short story, it went over a lot of >interesting (to me, anyway) ground. Did anyone else catch that story? > > -Sandy > this is a little late in the picture now.. but that Azimov story reminds me of a fascinating story I read by Ursula Le Guin once, in which people grew to thirty and then grew young again, so that there were very wise children in the house, with 40-50 years of life experience, who eventually became infants again, incapable of caring for themselves. I think it's in The Compass Rose. Jenn _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:06:41 GMT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: children (formally BDG: Beggars) Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU a world where > >there's > >a drug that could postpone puberty, allowing children to remain more > >productive, > >etc., without the raging hormones. The idea was that once they were out of > >school, they'd take the reversal drug, Not a short story, but Megan Lindholm's _Alien Earth_ (1992) has a far-future society where (to the best of my recollection) aliens have overcome humanity and treat them in some way to vastly delay puberty, so that they will not become violent and aggressive, and keep them in servitude. As I recall there is prejudice within the human community against the elderly who have finally become pubescent. Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:57:22 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: children (formally BDG: Beggars) Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200107031306.OAA28541@dns0.primexplus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Also... in teh Rama series by Arthur C. Clarke, the octospiders prevent puberty in order to remain more rational and productive. A certain portion of the population choosed to go through puberty anyway- they live short chaoitic, creative lives in their own enclave. Maire -----Original Message----- From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Lesley Hall Sent: Tuesday, 3 July 2001 11:07 PM To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] children (formally BDG: Beggars) a world where > >there's > >a drug that could postpone puberty, allowing children to remain more > >productive, > >etc., without the raging hormones. The idea was that once they were out of > >school, they'd take the reversal drug, Not a short story, but Megan Lindholm's _Alien Earth_ (1992) has a far-future society where (to the best of my recollection) aliens have overcome humanity and treat them in some way to vastly delay puberty, so that they will not become violent and aggressive, and keep them in servitude. As I recall there is prejudice within the human community against the elderly who have finally become pubescent. Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 06:26:36 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: BDG: Beggars in Spain Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII another interesting book on this theme, particularly, is zoe fairbairns' BENEFITS -- fairbairns is an english socialist. i refer you to this book because my response to these two questions below was: maybe we should consider how much is it worth to humanity to have the next generation fed/clothed/taught etc.? then i remembered BENEFITS: the dark side of a payment-for-mums program. lq On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Maire wrote: > Margaret wrote: How much money do we think the > government should give to a woman with 2 kids on welfare? > > Maire: To me, the issue is more: how much money should the govt give to two > kids in a family with no income... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Margaret McBride > Sent: Tuesday, 3 July 2001 10:35 AM > To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain > > > The comments about Beggars in Spain and some discussions I had at WisCon > have made me more aware of what makes me respond most strongly to fiction > (and what books get on my reread list). I like books where the characters > have to make moral decisions and then have to live with those decisions; I > like books where characters change. I enjoy the plot only books too, of > course, but the ones that stay with me are ones that make me think in some > way. Beggars in Spain fulfills those criteria plus I got involved with the > characters and the story while I was reading it. I've found it interesting > how many of the comments on line this time have related the book directly > to personal lives. If not directly, we are all indirectly making choices > that resonate with this book all the time: How much money do we think the > government should give to a woman with 2 kids on welfare? Did you know > that at various times some states wouldn't give welfare if an "able-bodied > man" was in the house? I've taught essays dealing with welfare in writing > classes and there is a lot of conflict about how we deal with > poverty...questions I think this book raises beautifully. I am willing to > give it some slack for suspension of disbelief problems because of the > issues it raises. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf-lit > > Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf-lit > > Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:35:42 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Tracy A Mitchell Subject: Quotations For and About Women By Women Comments: To: Tameka Jones , LaTanya Malone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii LOL Tracy A. Mitchell Business Operations Support IBM Global Services - PSS tracyam@us.ibm.com (Internet) Tracy A. Mitchell/Raleigh/Contr/IBM (Lotus) External (919) 871-6164 T/L 254-6164 ---------------------- Forwarded by Tracy A Mitchell/Raleigh/Contr/IBM on 07/03/2001 09:32 AM --------------------------- cc: Subject: Quotations For and About Women By Women > > 1. The hardest years in life are those between ten and > seventy. -Helen Hayes (at 73) > > 2. I refuse to think of them as chin hairs. I think of > them as stray eyebrows. -Janette Barber > > 3. Mammogram - Every time I hear it, I think I'm > supposed to put my breast in an envelope and send it to someone. > -Jan > King > > 4. A male gynecologist is like an auto mechanic who > never owned a car. -Carrie Snow > > 5. Laugh and the world laughs with you. Cry and you cry > with your girlfriends. -Laurie Kuslansky > > 6. Old age ain't no place for sissies. - Bette Davis > > 7. A man's got to do what a man's got to do. A woman > must do what he can't. -Rhonda Hansome > > 8. Working mother - is redundant. -Jane Sellman > > 9. Every time I close the door on reality it comes in > through the windows. -Jennifer Unlimited > > 10. Thirty-five is when you finally get your head > together and your body starts falling apart. -Caryn Leschen > > 11. I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes > several days attack me at once. -Jennifer Unlimited > > 12. If you can't be a good example, then you'll just > have to be a horrible warning. -Catherine Aird > > 13. When I was young, I was put in a school for retarded > kids for two years before they realized I actually had a hearing > loss > and they called ME slow! -Kathy Buckley > > 14. I'm not offended by all the dumb blonde jokes > because I know I'm not dumb and I'm also not blonde. -Dolly Parton- > > 15. You see a lot of smart guys with dumb women, but you hardly > ever see a smart woman with a dumb guy. -- Erica Jong > > 16. If high heels were so wonderful, men would be wearing them. > -Sue Grafton > > 17. I'm not going to vacuum 'til Sears makes one you can ride on. > -Roseanne Barr > > 18. I think-therefore I'm single. -Lizz Winstead > > 19. When women are depressed they either eat or go > shopping. Men invade another country. -Elayne Boosler > > 20. Behind every successful man is a surprised woman. > -Maryon Pearson > > 21. I have yet to hear a man ask for advice on how to > combine marriage and a career. -Gloria Steinem > > 22. I never married because there was no need. I have three pets > at home which answer the same purpose as a husband. I have a dog that > growls > every morning, a parrot that swears all afternoon, and a cat that comes > home > late every night. -Marie Corelli > > 23. If men can run the world, why can't they stop wearing > neckties? How intelligent is it to start the day by tying a > noose around your neck? -Linda Ellerbee > > 24. I am a marvelous housekeeper. Every time I leave a man I keep > his house. -Zsa Zsa Gabor > > 25. Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. > -Eleanor Roosevelt > > Send this to five bright women you know and make their day. > > __________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 06:46:51 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: children (formally BDG: Beggars) Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200107031306.OAA28541@dns0.primexplus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII re: delayed puberty / freeze-your-kids-at-x-age books, below -- (1) re: threads in sf & women's history relating puberty / hormones / fertility to productivity / reproductivity > > a world where there's a drug that could postpone puberty, > > allowing children to remain more productive, etc., without > > the raging hormones. The idea was that once they were out > > of school, they'd take the reversal drug, this comment reminds me of sheri tepper's comments at wiscon in 1998 -- also a subtle thread in her books, see, e.g., GATE TO WOMEN'S COUNTRY -- that older post-menopausal women are somehow liberated, freed, of sexual desire & therefore a lot of confusion. i have some problems with the fundamental premise (that menopause ends sexual desire) but that aside, the concept seems to be similar: sexual desire leads to loss of productivity. it would be interesting to compare this notion -- an idea which seems to be not inhospitable to some sorts of feminism -- with the sexist notions of the 19th century that intellectual training would ruin a woman's reproductive abilities. although i think that the doctors at that time meant it literally -- see the work of Barbara Ehrenreich & Deirdre English -- it is interesting how those doctors were actually correct, in a non-literal sense. more education does not of course render women biologically sterile. but more education does render women likely to have smaller families. statistically, across cultures and time. (i'm not familiar with any counter-examples but i'm sure there are some.) (2) re: delayed puberty / freeze-your-kids-at-x-age books -- what about COMMITMENT HOUR by James Gardner? i haven't read it -- but my understanding of the premise is that young people are neuter until they're 20 or so at which point they must choose male or female. actually then i have some questions -- has anybody read this book? how does it treat queers, i.e., can people be gay after they've chosen? how does this book compare with HALFWAY HUMAN by Carolyn Ives Gilman -- **** SPOILERS*** **** SPOILERS*** **** SPOILERS*** my recollection is that HALFWAY HUMAN children are chosen for one gender or another although it is presented as a recognition of their biology; some children are selected to be neuters, basically an enslaved population. laura q On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Lesley Hall wrote: > > a world where there's a drug that could postpone puberty, > > allowing children to remain more productive, etc., without > > the raging hormones. The idea was that once they were out > > of school, they'd take the reversal drug, > > Not a short story, but Megan Lindholm's _Alien Earth_ > (1992) has a far-future society where (to the best of > my recollection) aliens have overcome humanity and > treat them in some way to vastly delay puberty, so > that they will not become violent and aggressive, and > keep them in servitude. As I recall there is prejudice > within the human community against the elderly who > have finally become pubescent. > > Lesley Hall > lesleyah@primex.co.uk > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf-lit > > Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:48:08 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Tracy A Mitchell Subject: mistake Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Group: The last message sent by me was a mistake. Oops! Tracy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 06:50:56 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: off-topic postings Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII y'all i don't want to be a nag -- but remember that we created this list specifically so that people who did not want to get off-topic postings had a little on-topic-only refuge. i recommend subscribing to both lists, and sending off-topic (but relevant) postings to FEMINISTSF -- but not to feministsf-lit. thanks. Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:23:59 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: children (formally BDG: Beggars) Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > > >(2) re: delayed puberty / freeze-your-kids-at-x-age books -- > >what about COMMITMENT HOUR by James Gardner? i haven't read it -- but my >understanding of the premise is that young people are neuter until they're >20 or so at which point they must choose male or female. > >actually then i have some questions -- has anybody read this book? how >does it treat queers, i.e., can people be gay after they've chosen? **** SPOILERS*** Warning - to answer Laura's question can give away the end of the book - The young people aren't neuter, they are female one year and male the next. Actually it turns out that there are two bodies (actually, now I recall there are 3 - there is a neuter?? body also - one that has both forms of secondary sexual characteristics??) involved for each child. That's somewhat obvious from fairly early on, because one child gets hurt one year (some sort of brain damage - I don't recall the specifics), but the next year returns with no real evidence of that damage in the opposite sexed body. Finally at age 18 or 21 or whatever (again can't recall the specifics - sorry!) they must chose which body to come back with permanently. No one is actually aware of the existence of the 2 bodies for each person, but it is figured out during the course of the story by an outsider who comes to observe them. There is a definite rejection of someone who chooses the neuter body - that's how the outsider comes to town, because the individual who chose neuter has been expelled and returns years later. There's alot more to it, so I may not have given too much away, and I may be misremembering parts. (Sorry for the confusion, I thought I remembered it better, but as I typed I realized that soem of it was not readily accesible in my mind) Anyway, overall it seems to disapprove of anyone who doesn't choose to follow a heterosexual lifestyle, but I think it also works with further reading to be a commentary against insisting that people all be the same - they eventually convince the people of the community that different is not evil. > >how does this book compare with HALFWAY HUMAN by Carolyn Ives Gilman -- > **** SPOILERS*** > > > > > > **** SPOILERS*** > > > > > > > **** SPOILERS*** > > > > > >my recollection is that HALFWAY HUMAN children are chosen for one gender >or another although it is presented as a recognition of their biology; >some children are selected to be neuters, basically an enslaved >population. > >laura q > >On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Lesley Hall wrote: > >> > a world where there's a drug that could postpone puberty, >> > allowing children to remain more productive, etc., without >> > the raging hormones. The idea was that once they were out >> > of school, they'd take the reversal drug, >> >> Not a short story, but Megan Lindholm's _Alien Earth_ >> (1992) has a far-future society where (to the best of >> my recollection) aliens have overcome humanity and >> treat them in some way to vastly delay puberty, so >> that they will not become violent and aggressive, and >> keep them in servitude. As I recall there is prejudice >> within the human community against the elderly who >> have finally become pubescent. >> >> Lesley Hall >> lesleyah@primex.co.uk >> >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for >> discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >> unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >> LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: >> unsubscribe feministsf-lit >> >> Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. >> > >Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net > >------------------------------------------------------ >This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf-lit > >Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:39:23 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kristina Solheim Subject: Re: query tornor chronciles Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:05 PM 7/1/2001 +1000, Maire wrote: >I have watchtower and Northern Girl, which are the 1 and third in the >Chnoicles of Tornor. So my question is that is the middle book as good as >the others? I know it isnt told from a female POV... and I must say that >the cover picture of a beefy male barbarian typoe doenst inspire confidnece! I just finished _Watchtower_ last week and now am half-way through _Dancers of Arun_. The cover of my copy is a lithe, feminine dancer. I think it is as good as _Watchtower_ if not better. I'm only half-way through right now, but I'm really identifying with the protag, moreso than I did with _Watchtower_. I was lucky enough to find used copies of all three Tornor books at Wiscon. I can't wait to get to _the Northern Girl_. ciao! K ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:42:03 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kristina Solheim Subject: Re: General book talk - the Ill Made Mute Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:28 PM 7/2/2001 +1000, Maire wrote: >Thats very interesting, I was not sure how much exposure Astralian books and >so on got in the US. However, given the investment the US publishing house >made in the series, perhaps it is not that suprising that they paid a lot of >attention to marketing! Are you in Australia, Maire? I'm desperately seeking copies of Isabel Carmody's books. I have the first two Farseeker books in hardcover just released in the U.S. but I can't wait for the third. Any ideas of where I can buy the other books in her series? I heard that she's been writing in Australia for ages. ciao! K ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:23:52 -0700 Reply-To: publicity@mystgalaxy.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: posting etiquitte grumble Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can posters please adhere to the list rules of not reposting previous posts at complete length in their responses, but only reposting any pertinent bits which their new posts may need for context? Thanks. Happy Independence Day to those who celebrate, Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:40:08 +0200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Always Coming Home Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The BDG book for July is _Always Coming Home_ by Ursula Le Guin. I try to start the discussion with the opinion of somebody else (I have to finish the story before I can add mine): Danny Yee's Review http://dannyreviews.com/h/Always_Coming_Home.html "Always Coming Home is the only work I've ever felt could really be compared with Tolkien, in this case with the Silmarillion rather than with The Lord of the Rings, since it is a fictional ethnography rather than a novel. Where Tolkien drew on history (along with linguistics and mythology) to create his imaginative world, Le Guin draws on anthropology (along with linguistics and mythology) to create hers. This difference is very clear cut: Tolkien's world has almost no ethnographic detail, while Le Guin's has no history. The subject of Le Guin's work is the Kesh - a people who inhabit a valley in a far-future California and who are clearly based on native American models. Mostly she lets them speak for themselves, allowing the reader to learn about them through a montage of their short stories, poems, and myths. These are laid out around a central novella, which tells the story of a woman called Stonetelling who leaves the valley to live with her father's people, the Condor. The "back of the book" contains additional information about the Kesh in more traditional ethnographic form. While there are a few passages of reflexive commentary in Always Coming Home (where Pandora the archaeologist addresses the reader directly) and some of these make direct comments on contemporary issues, Le Guin's "message" is not directly imparted. A more explicit account of her ideas about utopia can be found in the essay "A Non-Euclidean View of California as a Very Cold Place to Be" (reprinted in Dancing at the Edge of the World). As a work of fictional anthropology Always Coming Home is a brilliant success. As a utopia, however, it has some major flaws. One is the "machina ex machina" of the City of Mind, a benevolent collection of machine intelligences which provides the Kesh and other peoples with all the positive benefits of science and technology (weather forecasts, global communication, etc.), while sparing them the need to devote resources to those ends. Another is the straw-man patriarchal and authoritarian society of the Dayao/Condor. This is too extreme to be an interesting contrast to the Kesh (except polemically), and its implausibility means that the failure of the Condor to dominate the societies around them (in effect to reenact the historical incorporation of traditional societies by empires and centralised states) actually detracts from the credibility of Le Guin's vision. (I can't help thinking that things would be a little different if the Kesh were to face Julius Caesar and a single Roman legion, even with their technological inferiority.) In an attempt to avoid this criticism Le Guin falls back on possible genetic changes in "human nature", a move which undercuts her work's engagement with reality and which I found as distressing as the terrible ending to Tehanu. Le Guin seems to have lost the strength of mind and the intellectual courage which were so apparent in The Dispossessed, where she went out of her way to face the likely problems in her anarchist utopia. Despite its flaws, Always Coming Home is a work of extraordinary creativity. Though many who loved Le Guin's novels will find it unapproachable, many who would never think of touching a science fiction novel would enjoy it." What did you think of this utopia? How does it compare in your opinion with the utopia of _The Dispossessed_? What did you think of the unusual make-up of the book? Petra ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 01:55:16 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: children (formally BDG: Beggars) Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200107040100.tk58nl.4k1.37kbi7f@runyon.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Laura Quilter wrote: > (2) re: delayed puberty / freeze-your-kids-at-x-age books -- > > what about COMMITMENT HOUR by James Gardner? i haven't read it -- but > my understanding of the premise is that young people are neuter until > they're 20 or so at which point they must choose male or female. Actually, every year, on a certain day they switch (fairly randomly) between male, female, and neuter, never repeating one from one year to the next. At 20, they must decide which to be, but neuter (I forget, they may actually be hermaphrodites) is no longer a socially acceptable choice. > actually then i have some questions -- has anybody read this book? > how does it treat queers, i.e., can people be gay after they've > chosen? I don't remember if that was addressed. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 00:02:15 +1200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jenn Martin Subject: Re: Aussie authors Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed woops, I always thought Isobel Carmoday WAS Australian... I was amazed at the amount of wonderful fantasy and science fiction coming out of australia and New Zealand.. Carmody... this new lady Maire's been talking about, Sherryl Jordan... it gives a girl hope. Jenn I'm desperately seeking copies of >Isabel >Carmody's books. I have the first two Farseeker books in hardcover just >released in the U.S. but I can't wait for the third. Any ideas of where I >can buy the other books in her series? I heard that she's been writing in >Australia for ages. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 22:27:23 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Heather Stark Subject: Re: BDG Always Coming Home Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been putting off reading this for 16 years, because I was concerned that the format was a terrible temptation to self-indulgence - on the part of the author. (I usually find the poems that authors put into novels to be a mistake.) Glad BDG nudged it to the top of my list. It hit two of my buttons hard, in a nice kind of way: * I once lived in Northern California, and the hills and forests and coasts there gave me a gift - uninterpreted and powerful - which I can still feel * when visiting Tofino - at the end of the road, on Vancouver Island - one night I met woman who lived way up the coast, where the roads don't go, who had come many miles by boat, to 'the big city', and we made a strong connection at the edges of each others' worlds. Then, years later, I bought 'Daughters of Copper Woman' in a second hand shop - and it turned out to be retellings of tales from her people. Both incidents were uncanny, and important in a way I don't understand. So how could I not like 'Always Coming Home'? Let me count the ways...;-). Well, I did like it - mostly. As I'd suspected, the format requires more quiet perseverance than a pure narrative, which if it is doing its job, just gets you in its jaws and gallops off with you, without you having to do any work. Here, the picture builds more slowly, emergening from the convergence and interplay of evidence. In some ways this style in the whole of mirrors the more detailed structure of some of the tellings. The matter of fact tone, and lurking disconnects and signficances are things I've found in of all the stories I've read from first peoples - including Daughter of Copper Woman, and the very first ones I read when I was ten, ghost stories from the Six Nations (North East Canada/US). I agree with the Danny Yee that the City of Mind - some kind of big AI in the sky - didn't quite seem to fit in to the world very well. I also agree with Danny that the contrast with the Condor people was a bit stark - and seemed laid on quite thickly. What about the utopia? I think Ursula Le Guin said it best herself, in the book. Pandora: I never did like smartass utopians. Always so much helathier and sounder and sunder and fitter and kinder and tougher and wiser and righter than me and my family and friends. People who have the answers are boring, niece. Boring, boring, boring. Archivist: But I have no answers and this in't utopia, aunt! Pandora: The hell it ain't. Archivist: This is a mere dream dreamed in a bad time, and Up Yours to the people who ride snowmobiles, make nuclear weapons...a critique of civilisation possible only to the civilised, an affirmation pretending to be a rejection... (p. 316, University of California Press, 2001) And so it is. Heather ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 18:48:05 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Cronin Subject: Re: BDG Always Coming Home Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > * I once lived in Northern California, and the hills and forests and > coasts there > gave me a gift - uninterpreted and powerful - which I can still feel Wow. This touches on how I feel about "Searoad". I spent summers as a child on the Oregon coast, and that book took me right back there. Thanks for reminding me; I need to find my copy and re-read that book! I felt similarly about ACH when I first read it, for a college class, about 10 years ago, but not as strongly as with Searoad. Several of her books make me feel lucky to live in this part of the world. :) -Sandy ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems.