From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:52:25 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:43 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0109A" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 10:12:21 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Mellen Subject: Book discussion - September Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu, feministsf@uic.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Discussion Groupers; This month wešre discussing; The Gumshoe, the Witch and the Virtual Corpse by Keith Hartman. Discussion will be officially started by the nominator about the first Monday of September. Enjoy! Mellen For the BDG Volunteers Upcoming Books- 1 October: The Fortunate Fall by Raphael Carter *************************************************************************** The BDG provides a forum for focusing discussion on a particular book during a one month period. The books discussed are nominated and chosen in advance by a vote of all members of the FSFFU-L list serve who choose to vote. Start thinking about your nominations now. To quote our list-mistress, "This does not prohibit discussion of the BDG books at other times; nor does it prohibit discussion of non-BDG books." If you have any other questions about the Book Discussion Group (BDG), it's selections, previous discussions or the Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy and Utopias Literature List Serve (FSFFU-L), you can start with the BDG website at; http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304, or the FSFFU-L website at; http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/fsflit/ ------------------------------------------------------ This is the feministsf-lit listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf-lit Contact feministsf-lit-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:48:37 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kirsten Hoyte Subject: The Gumshoe.... Spoilers Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi! I'm the "official" moderator so I thought that I would start off by mentioning what I enjoyed about this book. The simplest explanation is that it made me laugh out loud the first time I read it years ago. And since then, I can still pick it up every once in awhile and chuckle. I always like how everything comes together neatly at the end, and you realize that each intertwining story and each hint makes sense in the bigger picture. Furthermore, I liked how Calerant had planned everything so carefully, but so much happened outside his plans and expectations to make it all work. I imagine some of this neatly tied up plot is common to mysteries (a genre that I almost never read) but it still struck me as masterful. I also enjoyed how Hartman poked fun at a bunch of different subcultures. There were the Returnees who tried to out-Cherokee the Cherokee, the performance artists creating increasingly jaded and self-indulgent art (for example, the artist who just flashes a symbol instead of a name) the gay male gym clones, the high school cliques (nerds vs. jocks), Shard, the member of the coven who is lobbying like a politician etc. One of my questions was whether readers felt like the different groups all got equal treatment in the satiric commentary or did the Baptists receive the brunt of the criticism? I was also intrigued by the media/news outlet that employed Holly. Her cubicle was next to a black site newswriter, a Baptist site newswriter, a catholic site and so forth. They all worked in the same office spinning the same news to different audiences. With the growing number of news sources merging, this detail seemed right on target. There were also a lot of other near-future world building details that Hartman employed. Ideas like the portable computers connected to the net, the almost cashless society and the artificial wombs were not unique to this particular novel but I thought they were well-executed as well as exploring the conflict between a detectable "gay" gene and anti-abortion rhetoric. There was really only one part of the book that didn't sit quite right with me (besides a few typos in my edition). The woman characters felt less real to me than the men. Not really in any terrible way. This is a pretty minor criticism. If anything I guess they seemed less real because they were more put together. I recognized the Gumshoe and Benji particularly with their anxieties and self-doubt and the slightly slow Justin. Benji was not too popular, not too attractive, insecure and so forth. But Summer was cool as a cucumber (not just from Benji's narration but also the time or two that she narrated a chapter)! I teach plenty of middle and high school girls. Even the most popular ones are pretty insecure when it comes to meeting a new boy whom they like! Even Megan with her messy hair and Holly with her worries just seemed awfully together. Also Linda and so forth. I was thinking about all that when the very powerful Holly in a wolf paint comes out and saves Benji and there is that line "Not a werewolf, just a woman. But dark and frightening, in a way that only a woman could be." It just seemed over the top. Well that's all for now. I hope that other people have comments either about my remarks or other matters. One favor.... My email system will be down most of today (Monday) and possibly tomorrow. If you are going to reply to my message to the list. Will you please cc a copy to Victoriabl@aol.com? Thanks Kirsten ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 00:39:56 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: John Snead Subject: Re: The Gumshoe.... Spoilers Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200109040107.tp8oc9.r1b.37kbi5q@tyner.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kirsten Hoyte wrote: > Subject: > > Hi! I'm the "official" moderator so I thought that I would start off > by mentioning what I enjoyed about this book. The simplest > explanation is that it made me laugh out loud the first time I read it > years ago. And since then, I can still pick it up every once in > awhile and chuckle. I always like how everything comes together > neatly at the end, and you realize that each intertwining story and > each hint makes sense in the bigger picture. Furthermore, I liked how > Calerant had planned everything so carefully, but so much happened > outside his plans and expectations to make it all work. I imagine > some of this neatly tied up plot is common to mysteries (a genre that > I almost never read) but it still struck me as masterful. I enjoyed this book a great deal too. My partner and I both read the book and she did not like it as much because of a moral point. The fact that in the end, Calerant's plan worked and that no one revealed what had really been going on struck us both as very much as an "ends justify the means" type ending - where several of the people involved were willing to not reveal who committed several murders. I didn't have much of a problem with the ending, but my partner found it disturbingly immoral and thought that the ending showed several otherwise decent characters in an extremely negative light. In any case, I think the book did raise interesting questions about this issue. Comments? -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:39:18 +0200 Reply-To: p.mayerhofer@web.de Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Nomination Period Opened Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC , Victoriabl@aol.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is time once more to select the next books for the BDG. Please send in your nominations for the BDG November to February. As usual 4 books will be selected. Books can be nominated until Monday, the 10 September (incl.). I will post the final nomination list on Tuesday, 11 September, and then we have one week of voting. Terri Wakefield will once more count the votes. It would be a pity if the nomination process hampered the discussion on _Gumshoe_. Please don't hesitate to continue posting on it.There's no reason why the discussion and the nominations cannot be done in parallel. Books can be nominated that fulfill the following criteria: - speculative fiction (science fiction, fantasy, horror, etc.) - feminist (loose definition, nominators do _not_ have to have read the book already, it is enough if the story outline, reviews, or general reputation indicate that the book might be of interest from a feminist perspective) - currently available in the US (in English ;-) ) as mass market or trade paperback, - have not been discussed in the BDG before ("normal" list discussions do not count) (see list of former BDG books at the end of this message). Nominated books can be novels, collections and anthologies. If you nominate a collection or an anthology please specify which stories in particular you think the group should discuss (especially if it's a large one). During the nomination period, you can nominate as many books as you like by sending email to the FeministSF-Lit list with "BDG Nomination" in the subject line. Please confirm the availability of any title before nominating it by contacting Maryelizabeth at Mysterious Galaxy (http://www.mystgalaxy.com/), by looking it up on Amazon.com or by enquiring at a near-by bookstore. I urge you to REALLY check availability BEFORE you nominate. If the background information is missing in your nomination I assume you haven't done so and I will return the nomination to you to complete. However, if somebody has for any reason difficulties confirming availability (e.g. non-US residents without full internet access) I am very ready to help them (please contact me off-list). With the nomination members should provide the following information: - author - title - publisher - list price - ISBN For example: Nalo Hopkinson: Brown Girl in the Ring. (July 1998). Warner Books; ISBN: 0446674338, List Price: $12.99 It is recommended to give some reasons why the book should be selected. There are some self-runners but in most elections the candidate has to campaign a bit. Nominators of books finally selected are expected to kick-off the discussion when their books are due for discussion. Nominators can do this any way they want. We will contact successful nominators before we fix the BDG schedule for November to February so that we can take your time constraints into account. I handle the nominations and continuously update the nomination webpage (see http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/bdg_nom_0901.htm ). Especially for the newcomers I want to stress: The BDG is one (and only one) feature of the feministsf-lit. It's purpose is to focus discussion on a particular book at a particular time. Other books can be discussed in parallel to the BDG, of course, and past and future BDG books can be discussed at any time on the list. The only difference to a 'normal' list discussion is that in BDG messages spoilers (for the BDG book under discussion) have not to be pointed out (the 'BDG' in the subject line is the actual spoiler warning). Further info on the BDG you can find at the BDG website http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ Petra BDG books so far: Ammonite, by Nicola Griffith Dreamsnake, by Vonda McIntyre Halfway Human, by Carolyn Ives Gilman The Mists of Avalon, by Marion Zimmer Bradley Alien Influences, by Kristine Kathryn Rusch Black Wine, by Candas Jane Dorsey Shadow Man, by Melissa Scott The Snow Queen, by Joan D. Vinge The Sparrow, by Mary Doria Russell Brown Girl in the Ring, by Nalo Hopkinson The Female Man, by Joanna Russ A Fisherman of the Inland Sea, by Ursula K. Le Guin Jaran, by Kate Elliott Grass, by Sheri S. Tepper Slow River, by Nicola Griffith To Say Nothing of the Dog, by Connie Willis Wild Seed, by Octavia Butler The Slave and the Free, by Suzy McKee Charnas Ring of Swords, by Eleanor Arnason The Mistress of Spices, by Chitra Banerjee Divakaruni Flying Cups and Saucers, eds. Debbie Notkin et al. Briar Rose, by Jane Yolen Dawn, by Octavia Butler The Dazzle of Day, by Molly Gloss Remnant Population, by Elizabeth Moon The Gilda Stories, by Jewelle Gomez Kissing the Witch, by Emma Donoghue Not of Woman Born, ed. Constance Ash Singer from the Sea, by Sheri S. Tepper A Secret History: The Book of Ash 1, by Mary Gentle Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West, by Gregory Maguire Nights at the Circus, by Angela Carter The Conqueror's Child, by Suzy McKee Charnas The Terrorists of Irustan, by Louise Marley The Northern Girl, by Elizabeth A. Lynn The Moon and the Sun, by Vonda McIntyre Beggars in Spain, by Nancy Kress Always Coming Home, by Ursula K. Le Guin Brain Plague, by Joan Slonczewski Currently under discussion: The Gumshoe, the Witch, and the Virtual Corpse, by Keith Hartman Scheduled: The Fortunate Fall, by Raphael Carter (October) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:44:04 +0200 Reply-To: p.mayerhofer@web.de Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Nomination Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I nominate Playing God by Sarah Zettel Mass Market Paperback - 448 pages (November 1999), Warner Books; ISBN: 0446607584; List Price: $6.99 >From Booklist A handful of the all-female Dedelphi, representative of all the Dedelphi families, flees the internecine warfare that plagues their world-- and flees an artificial plague, the mutation of the latest nasty weapon, too--to form a peaceful colony among the humans on Mars. Their leader, Praeis Shin of the t'Theria family, hopes to forge an alliance with humans for an enormous project: relocating all Dedelphi to orbiting city ships while humans eradicate the plague and clean up the Dedelphi home planet. Under Praeis and engineer and urban planner Lynn Nussbaumer, it is a hopeful collaboration, especially considering that Dedelphi are so violently allergic to humans that a mere handshake can raise poisonous welts. But Praeis and Lynn are unaware of the seething, vengeful, rebellious factions back in the Dedelphi home world who will stop at nothing to make sure that their respective families not only survive but emerge as rulers. Zettel captures both loving, emotional relationships and the feverish thrill of battle in a fast-paced novel that will satisfy the most demanding sf reader. Roberta Johns _Playing God_ was short-listed for the 1998 Tiptree. According to the comments of the jury gender is mostly explored biologically in this novel but I nonetheless think it worthwhile to read. According to most of the reviews it is a good read. One of the Tiptree jugdges' comments: Some rather wooden and rather politically correct human characters only highlight the fascination of Zettel's aliens, a female-centred species whose internecine conflicts and the culture consequent on their inhuman biology were both believable and intriguing. The most interesting questions raised by this book were biological at base, and came from a parallel with humanity, and a recollection of Elaine Morgan's hypothesis, that menopause was evolved to keep old females' wisdom as a human resource, rather than have them expend their biological resources in dangerous births. The obvious twist in the Dedelphi story is the gender switch at menopause and the charmingly ironic reversal, both of all those patriarchal SF stories where aliens mutate into deadly female forms, and of all those old quips about brainless women. Because Dedelphi men are the post-menopausal form of Dedelphi women, and they have literally lost their minds. But the less obvious twist is the question that arises in parallel with Morgan's hypothesis: is the violence that plagues this society due to the absence of "old" women? Could this book function as a parable or investigation of women's post-menopausal possibilities, a fictional version of Germaine Greer's The Change? There is no clear indication of such a purpose. Nevertheless, the potential it invokes make a shortlisting no more than its due. SK) Science Fiction Weekly Review by A. M. Dellamonica at http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue89/books.html#pg Petra -- Petra Mayerhofer p.mayerhofer@web.de Website of Book Discussion Group on feminist sf www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 03:21:03 +0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Wilhelmina Thomas Subject: Re: BDG Nomination Period Opened Comments: To: p.mayerhofer@web.de, feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I would like to recommend Catherine Asaro's The Last Hawk paperback ISBN 081255109 doherty Tome Associates, LLC October 1998 Between $6.00 and $8.00 >From the Publisher The Last Hawk is Catherine Asaro's third novel of the Skolian Empire, an interstellar civilization spanning hundreds of worlds and thousands of years. Each book approaches the Empire and a member of the ruling family from a different angle, or at a different moment in future history. Now, in The Last Hawk, Asaro tells the tale of the lost heir to the Empire. Fleeing the heat of battle in a wounded spacecraft, Kelric crash-lands on a proscribed planet where a matriarchy rules through the medium of a complex game. The women in power help to heal him, but destroy his ship and determine that he can never leave - for his knowledge of their world, if revealed to the Empire, would cause the rapid fall of their civilization. And so his rescue turns into an imprisonment of years, decades, a time in which he finds love and a challenging place in the universal game. I am recommending this book because it takes a different look female dominated societies. Our main character is manipulated, fought over and forced to survive while several different and rather interesting women fight over him. Wilhelmina _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:55:34 +0200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Organization: http://freemail.web.de/ Subject: BDG Nomination _Last Hawk_ Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU, Wilhelmina Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you for nominating _Last Hawk_ by Catherine Asaro. In the past people have expressed concerns about books that are not first in a series. The question is whether one can follow the story or whether one misses a lot of hints because the first books in the series have not been read. _Last Hawk_ is the third book in a series. From the descriptions I've seen so far, it can be read independently, so the nomination is accepted. Still, it would be nice to have your opinion on this. Can you (or anybody else) say more about this aspect? Thanks. Petra ______________________________________________________________________________ Sie surfen im Internet statt im Meer? Selbst schuld! Auf zum Strand: http://lastminute.de/?PP=1-0-100-105-1 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 20:08:09 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: BDG Nomination _Last Hawk_ Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200109050655.f856tYp09262@mailgate3.cinetic.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I dont think there would be any problem at all. A parallel might be to Joan Slonczewski's A Doo Into Ocean universe, you can read A Children Star and Brain Plague without reading A Door and have no problems... although of course reading the whole lot gives you a greater insight into the history, culture of the universe blah blah. If anyone has read A Roll of The Dice, by Asaro, nominated for Hugo- that is set on the Last Hawk world. (I have not read A Last Hawk, but I have read the novella) Maire Currently Reading: Half the Day is Night by Maureen F. McHugh; The Eyre Affair by Jasper Fforde; Neverwhere by Neil Gaiman. Just Read: Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson; City of Sorcery by MZB; Master Harper of Pern by Anne McCaffrey > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Petra Mayerhofer > Sent: Wednesday, 5 September 2001 4:56 PM > To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Nomination _Last Hawk_ > > > Thank you for nominating _Last Hawk_ by Catherine Asaro. > > In the past people have expressed concerns about books that are > not first in a series. The question is whether one can follow the > story or whether one misses a lot of hints because the first > books in the series have not been read. > > _Last Hawk_ is the third book in a series. From the descriptions > I've seen so far, it can be read independently, so the nomination > is accepted. > > Still, it would be nice to have your opinion on this. Can you (or > anybody else) say more about this aspect? Thanks. > > Petra > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > ____________ > Sie surfen im Internet statt im Meer? Selbst schuld! > Auf zum Strand: http://lastminute.de/?PP=1-0-100-105-1 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 05:50:09 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Cronin Subject: Re: BDG Nomination _Last Hawk_ Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > _Last Hawk_ is the third book in a series. From the descriptions I've seen so far, it can be read independently, so the nomination is accepted. > > Still, it would be nice to have your opinion on this. Can you (or anybody else) say more about this aspect? Thanks. I would say it could definitely be read independently; it's about a character we hear about in other books in the series, but I don't think he's a MAJOR character in either of the earlier ones, and the book is about JUST him, in an isolated situation, and how he gets out of it; I'd compare it to Ethan of Athos in the Vorkosigan series, which I also feel can be read completely independently, even though it does fit into the rest of the series. -Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:36:50 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marga <428476@FILOZ.UNIZAR.ES> Subject: Pamela Sargent Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sorry Janice that I couldn't reply sooner, my computer was down. sorry again. You asked about gender division in Pamela Sargent's book, yes, in *The Shore of Women* men and women live separated after a nuclear war. Both men and women lived for years in shelters and when the earth was suitable for life again the women remaining took the control by controlling science and technology and went to live to cities surrounded by walls. The remaining men live outside as they can hunting and fighting. The cult to the goddess appears as a way to control men. The women of the enclaves use them to get sperm. the book explores the different choices humans have to live: women and men living separately and women and men living together. Curiously enough, the women of the cities have women as partners and loathe men and the idea of having sex (or anything to do ) with men while the men in the outside *have* sex with women in the form or *spirits* that is by some sort of holograms or whatever and feel in communion with the goddess. the rest of time they force younger boys to have sex with them. The main characters, a woman expelled from a city and a man, manage to survive, to have a kid and to enjoy sex. I like the style mainly, the approach is quite interesting as it explores different possibilities but I think the possitions are taking to extremes as the men appear as too brutal and the women as two cold and detached. I understand it is about stereotypes that have to be broken by the main characters but sometimes it is taken too far. What in my opinion is a good point is the zealotry of the men towards the goddess. I think it is a critic on fanatically believing on something without questioning about it. *Venus of dreams* sounds very similar to this story, doesn't it? Is *watchstar* a scifi novel or is it a rewriting of history??? I know she rewrote life in Gengis Khan's times.... interesting. I love this kind of books, this is why I love *The Mists of Avalon* and *The Firebrand* but no so much the Darkover saga except for the amazon trilogy. marga. ps. Dave, are your novels available in Spain?. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:40:57 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: Pamela Sargent Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shore of WOmen sounds very very similar to a sf book I read by *i think* MZB. Its on a far off planet, the women are in control and the men serve them, because the women have access to this alien intelligence ghost which tells them when storms are coming and thus, enabeling the women to hav control. A woman, comes from another world. The alien intelligence looks into her mind, and discovered that she has a hgh opinion of men. (The reason that the alien ghost didnt talk to men, is because when it looked into the mind of the first human on the world, a woman, it disciovered that te woman thought of men as not muvh better than animals, therefore the alien ghost didnt tlak to men either. Now it has seen the truth in the offworld woman's mind) A big part of this was when the woman participates in the fertilituy rites, the only sexual contact between teh sexes, done for the purposes of reproduction. The off-world woman expects an expereince similar to rape, as revenge by the men for how tehy are treated; but instead the men consider the rite as a acommuninon with the goddess/ their cherished memories of their mothers. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Maire Currently Reading: Half the Day is Night by Maureen F. McHugh; The Eyre Affair by Jasper Fforde; Neverwhere by Neil Gaiman. Just Read: Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson; City of Sorcery by MZB; Master Harper of Pern by Anne McCaffrey > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Marga > Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2001 6:37 AM > To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSF-L*] Pamela Sargent > > > Sorry Janice that I couldn't reply sooner, my computer was down. > sorry again. > > You asked about gender division in Pamela Sargent's book, yes, in *The > Shore of Women* men and women live separated after a nuclear war. Both men > and women lived for years in shelters and when the earth was suitable for > life again the women remaining took the control by controlling science and > technology and went to live to cities surrounded by walls. The remaining > men live outside as they can hunting and fighting. The cult to the goddess > appears as a way to control men. The women of the enclaves use them to get > sperm. > the book explores the different choices humans have to live: women and men > living separately and women and men living together. Curiously enough, the > women of the cities have women as partners and loathe men and the idea of > having sex (or anything to do ) with men while the men in the outside > *have* sex with women in the form or *spirits* that is by some sort of > holograms or whatever and feel in communion with the goddess. the rest of > time they force younger boys to have sex with them. The main characters, a > woman expelled from a city and a man, manage to survive, to have a kid and > to enjoy sex. > I like the style mainly, the approach is quite interesting as it explores > different possibilities but I think the possitions are taking to extremes > as the men appear as too brutal and the women as two cold and detached. I > understand it is about stereotypes that have to be broken by the main > characters but sometimes it is taken too far. What in my opinion is a good > point is the zealotry of the men towards the goddess. I think it is a > critic on fanatically believing on something without questioning about it. > *Venus of dreams* sounds very similar to this story, doesn't it? > Is *watchstar* a scifi novel or is it a rewriting of history??? I know she > rewrote life in Gengis Khan's times.... interesting. I love this kind of > books, this is why I love *The Mists of Avalon* and *The Firebrand* but no > so much the Darkover saga except for the amazon trilogy. > marga. > ps. Dave, are your novels available in Spain?. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 08:35:48 GMT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Pamela Sargent Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu > Shore of WOmen sounds very very similar to a sf book I read by *i think* > MZB. _The Ruins of Isis_. The first women settlers had come from a very male-dominant culture in which they were brutalised, and this was what the super-intelligence saw in their minds. Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk Website: http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:16:36 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dave Belden Subject: Re: Pamela Sargent Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Watchstar is a science fiction novel. My edition is Pocket Books, NY, 1980. It's about a young woman facing an initiation ordeal that her admired older brother did not survive. There's telepathy, women controlling their ovulation mentally, etc. If I can get around to reading it again soon I'll post a better description. Dave (Belden) p.s. You asked about my own novels, availability in Spain. They were published by Signet/New American Library in the late 80s, and have been long out of print. I have copies for sale still myself. But revised editions are coming out in the next few months, and then a third in the series next year, and they will be available from Amazon etc., the first one to be published by www.Vivisphere.com probably in October. The premise of the first book (Children of Arable) is a space civilization that has got rid of gender, birthing, families, love relationships, in an effort to ensure safety and survival in space. Gender is effectively reinvented by some young people who get pregnant and one who can't, because, he discovers, he is male. Strong female protagonist, revolution, womb envy, male backlash, not to mention telekinetics, piracy and other old and new sf ingredients. I consider it a feminist man's attempt to try and work out why men have tried to control women all these millennia. -----Original Message----- From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Marga Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 4:37 PM To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSF-L*] Pamela Sargent Sorry Janice that I couldn't reply sooner, my computer was down. sorry again. You asked about gender division in Pamela Sargent's book, yes, in *The Shore of Women* men and women live separated after a nuclear war. Both men and women lived for years in shelters and when the earth was suitable for life again the women remaining took the control by controlling science and technology and went to live to cities surrounded by walls. The remaining men live outside as they can hunting and fighting. The cult to the goddess appears as a way to control men. The women of the enclaves use them to get sperm. the book explores the different choices humans have to live: women and men living separately and women and men living together. Curiously enough, the women of the cities have women as partners and loathe men and the idea of having sex (or anything to do ) with men while the men in the outside *have* sex with women in the form or *spirits* that is by some sort of holograms or whatever and feel in communion with the goddess. the rest of time they force younger boys to have sex with them. The main characters, a woman expelled from a city and a man, manage to survive, to have a kid and to enjoy sex. I like the style mainly, the approach is quite interesting as it explores different possibilities but I think the possitions are taking to extremes as the men appear as too brutal and the women as two cold and detached. I understand it is about stereotypes that have to be broken by the main characters but sometimes it is taken too far. What in my opinion is a good point is the zealotry of the men towards the goddess. I think it is a critic on fanatically believing on something without questioning about it. *Venus of dreams* sounds very similar to this story, doesn't it? Is *watchstar* a scifi novel or is it a rewriting of history??? I know she rewrote life in Gengis Khan's times.... interesting. I love this kind of books, this is why I love *The Mists of Avalon* and *The Firebrand* but no so much the Darkover saga except for the amazon trilogy. marga. ps. Dave, are your novels available in Spain?. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:34:05 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Misha Bernard Subject: Re: The Gumshoe.... Spoilers Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200109040740.DAA19399@granger.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Because of the spoilers, I'll respond below the relevant comments On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, John Snead wrote: > My partner and I both read the book and she did not like it as much > because of a moral point. The fact that in the end, Calerant's plan > worked and that no one revealed what had really been going on > struck us both as very much as an "ends justify the means" type > ending - where several of the people involved were willing to not > reveal who committed several murders. I didn't have much of a > problem with the ending, but my partner found it disturbingly > immoral and thought that the ending showed several otherwise > decent characters in an extremely negative light. In any case, I > think the book did raise interesting questions about this issue. > > Comments? Hm, I didn't like the pat way it all ended- the excuse that everyone gave themselves about not giving Calerant 'credit' for the murders- his performance art- WAS the effects it had. The result, Stonewall taking all the murders on his head, was supposed to calm down the panic and fearful atmosphere in Atlanta. I don't know that I guy it. Actually, I wanted to find out what Jen Gray did and I incorrectly guessed that Benji also received a monetary bribe for his 'amnesia'. I mean, no one seems to worry about Stonewall being imprisoned for life, that Calerant was NOT totally balanced and picked up tools for his revenge in prison, and that (unless more folks were dead and no one believes Stonewall EVER) the case wouldn't be revisted later. I wasn't sure if this was a sort of 'deja vu' in reverse, for some future person to dig around in it. What do folks who read mysteries more often think of the book? I liked it, but something about that ending just didn't feel right to me. OH, and when Kirsten said "I was thinking about all that when the very powerful Holly in a wolf paint comes out and saves Benji and there is that line "Not a werewolf, just a woman. But dark and frightening, in a way that only a woman could be." It just seemed over the top." I had to go back and look- I completely missed the werewolf part, but the dark and frightening part leapt out at me. I tried to see it as part of her Wiccan-ness, women's power and all, but the 'darkness' still sits badly at a point in the book where it's still structured around someone must be evil and/or have power. Is it Stonewall, Calerant, who? The good/evil bit wasn't de-Baptisted enough for me. Hunh, still thinking over whether non-Baptists got short shrift.... Misha Bernard Cultural Studies PhD student mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason University ------------------------- -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- Ursula K. Le Guin "World Making" (1981) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:31:39 +0200 Reply-To: p.mayerhofer@web.de Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Nomination Intermediate List Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So far we have 2 nominations: * Catherine Asaro: The Last Hawk. Paperback ISBN 081255109 doherty Tome Associates, LLC October 1998. $8.00 * Sarah Zettel: Playing God. Mass Market Paperback - 448 pages (November 1999), Warner Books; ISBN: 0446607584; List Price: $6.99 As there are 4 books to select this is rather little. I encourage you to nominate books so that the BDG can continue. Books can be nominated until Monday, 10 September (incl.). The comments and reviews can be looked up at http://www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/bdg_nom_0901.htm . Petra -- Petra Mayerhofer p.mayerhofer@web.de Website of Book Discussion Group on feminist sf www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/