From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:52:43 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:45 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0110A" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 09:56:43 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Susan Hericks Subject: sci-fi "romance" humor Comments: To: "cm50@cornell.edu" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I figured we all could use a laugh :o) Susan The Top 20 Excerpts from a Romance Novel > Written by a Science Fiction Writer 20> "Clarice wanted to resist, but when Zoltor opened his mouth and his thirty-two inch tongue unspooled, she gave in with a shudder." 19> "The pizza boy never realized that 412 Mansion Cove was the four-dimensional portal of the Gnyxillian high queen, who often sought meaningless servicing from carbon-based life forms. This time was different, though. She didn't count on... love." >18> "As Loruk's thorax swelled, signaling her sexual availability, > she could feel Gakkor's twitching proboscis brush against > the most sensitive of her three legs, triggering her > kill-and-devour response in a way it had never been > triggered before." > >17> "Yeoman Rand gasped as her captain bent her over the > navigator's console and began tugging at her Starfleet- > issued panties. 'Prepare yourself for a captain's log > entry you won't forget,' Kirk purred, grinning wolfishly." > >16> "Their friends said they weren't compatible, that a model > 49FB8v3 could never find happiness with an amorphous > semi-organic blob, but they didn't care. Sure, they were > from different worlds, but they had each other and that's > all that mattered." > >15> "Oh my God!" screamed Elizabeth. "I bet a photon could > traverse the length of your tumescent organ in less than > a picosecond! In a vacuum!" > >14> "His hands tore passionately at her bodice. 'It's a > breathable poly/carbon shell woven with interstitial > polyvinylchloride!' she moaned. He gazed longingly, > agonizing over the knowledge of basic chemistry which > stood between him and her three proud breasts." > >13> "It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in > possession of a good fortune must be in want of a really > hot cyborg chick, and Ryan Cobalt was no different." > >12> "He was standing in the doorway, chlorine dissipating off his > rippling chest. From across the room, she could detect his > scent, the all too familiar musk of hydrogen sulfide and > ammonia. His eye met hers, and the silence was > overwhelming." > >11> "'Don't go! I love you!' Helen pleaded, her bosom heaving. > 'I must,' he replied coldly. > 'I'll never forget you,' she sobbed, brokenhearted. > 'Guess again,' the MiB agent remarked as he flashed his > Neuralizer." > >10> "Never had he seen twin moons more round, more perfectly > formed as these. They glistened in the twilight, each > with its own set of concentric rings, and he longed to be > the first man to land on them, to touch the surface." > > 9> "Though we both yearned to be as one, I knew that the > reverse polarization of our anti-grav units would forever keep us > apart." > > 8> "Diana Plasma was not the kind of woman to let > interplanetary gravity differentials dictate her agenda. When she said > 'Jump', she expected her cadets to say 'How high?' -- and > really *mean* it." > > 7> "As the Nintendo LuvDroid pushed Cliff roughly to the bed, > he felt a touch of fear, and with reason. 'ATTENTION!' > shrieked the droid, 'ALL YOUR PENIS ARE BELONG TO US!'" > > 6> "My ears tingled and my skin flushed as he whispered those > three sweet words that every woman wants to hear: > X'CHa'ktt Ng'xxkt Kzgrr'Dchch." > > 5> "'You're a cold, heartless beast!' she screamed, weeping. > 'Well, yes,' he responded, puzzled and hurt, 'On Pluto, > we ALL are.'" > > 4> "Her wanton breasts heaved. Her breath grew short. He > pulled her close and whispered, 'My Vulcan customs forbid me > from mating for another 7 years -- but we can still cuddle!'" > > 3> "As the mechanical whirring reached a crescendo, X-10B > suddenly rebooted. 'Just my luck,' P8000-C sighed, > covering her SCSI interface. X-10B cursed the latest > firmware upgrade as the hydraulic fluid drained from his > rapidly settling droidhood." > > 2> "Together they strolled along the sand, the light of the > moons reflecting from her platinum hair. Her ample breasts > pointed delicately upward in the weaker Martian gravity." > > > and Topfive.com's Number 1 Excerpt from a > Romance Novel Written by a Science Fiction Writer... > > > 1> "He held her close and whispered, 'Though light years may > come between us, my love, I shall always cherish the night > when I kissed you on Uranus.'" > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 22:04:43 +0200 Reply-To: p.mayerhofer@web.de Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG The Fortunate Fall Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <8B3A7A2CD342D2118E1E00104B0D44ADB5DAC0@mail.prescott.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The BDG book for October is _The Fortunate Fall_ by Raphael Carter. Let's start with saying that I liked it, that I couldn't put it down (especially the second half), that for once I didn't mind the Cyberpunk 'attitude' (which I usually strongly dislike) and that the questions posed intrigued me. Some questions on the book: Do you think that Maya made the wrong decision in leaving Keishi 'in the prison camp beneath the ocean, with the ruined mind of the new Iscariot and the body of the whale'? Why is Maya unhappy in the end? Guilt, loneliness, because she realized she loved Keishi after all? What do you think of the different positions on love of Maya, Keishi and Voskresenye? I cannot find the exact quote right now, but somewhere in the book Voskresenye makes a statement about why the horrors of the Unanimous Army made such a small imprint on general consciousness compared to the Holocaust. Can you help me out on this? What do you think about it? Did you understand Greyspace? This hunting technique somehow connected with looking? I didn't. I had difficulties accepting the emotional importance of the whale to people in the whole world. What do you think? What do you think about the conflicts between principles and humaneness presented in the novel? What do you think about the homophobia of the presented society? Did it convince you? There are 2 stories in this book. Maya's personal one and the 'historical' one of Voskresenye. In your opinion did the two story lines match? Did you figure out how the African technological advance came about? What are these 4 African 'gods'? His Majesty-in-Chains, etc. Where were your sympathies? Did you have any for Keishi and Voskresenye? My own answers? Here, it's already late. More in a few days. Petra -- Petra Mayerhofer p.mayerhofer@web.de Website of Book Discussion Group on feminist sf www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:54:56 +1200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jenn Martin Subject: Re: sci-fi "romance" humor and Snow Crash Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Heh, in response to Susan's wonderful sci-fi "romance" excerpts...for those of you that have read Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson, I think Neal parodies the Romance genre perfectly when Raven takes Y.T on a date. Reading the excerpts really reminded me of that freakish union! did people laugh at it as much as me when they read it? Jenn _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:18:45 +1200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jenn Martin Subject: Re: Rejection Letters Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I really enjoyed Le Guin's rejection letter too, Janice, it reminded me of the rejection letter Mary Doria Russell recieved for which said "no one wants to read about Priests in Space". What really excited me about Le Guin's website was in her biographical sketch, where she talked about the geography of the imagination that she developed as a child and the way this influenced her writing. She has wonderful landscape values, I think I understand where Always Coming Home came from a little beter now, having visited the site. Jenn _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:48:51 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: sci-fi "romance" humor and Snow Crash Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No! I didnt laugh at all! UNless... do you mean the needle incident? what was it called.. a datana? I was, however, shocked at this mocking of Raven's dignity. At least YT still.. reached a satisfactory conclusion. But really.. I was actaully "going for" Raven... I have had a fierce argument on another list about whether or not he suriveved Enzo, at the end Maire Hard SF- Oct discussion "A Door Into Ocean" by Joan Slonczewski http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hardsf > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Jenn Martin > Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2001 9:55 AM > To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] sci-fi "romance" humor and Snow Crash > > > Heh, in response to Susan's wonderful sci-fi "romance" > excerpts...for those > of you that have read Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson, I think Neal parodies > the Romance genre perfectly when Raven takes Y.T on a date. Reading the > excerpts really reminded me of that freakish union! did people laugh at it > as much as me when they read it? > > Jenn > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 20:48:07 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Cronin Subject: Re: sci-fi "romance" humor Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LOL! This reminded me of an ACTUAL line from Red Dwarf (http://www.reddwarf.com/ for an idea of what it's all about), in the episode called "Camille": CAMILLE: Oh, Kryten. Do you think we could make it, you and I? KRYTEN: It's the old, old story. Droid meets droid. Droid becomes chameleon. Droid loses chameleon, chameleon becomes blob, droid gets blob back again. It's a classic tale. Susan Hericks wrote: > > I figured we all could use a laugh :o) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 09:57:44 -0700 Reply-To: publicity@mystgalaxy.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Warner Aspect: A WOMAN'S LIBERATION Comments: To: Fem-SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A WOMAN'S LIBERATION is a powerful collection of stories by > acclaimed > best-selling female writers who have changed the nature of visionary > fiction. 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Identify > three Warner Aspect > women and win a copy of this wonderful book: > > http://www.twbookmark.com/funfeatures/contests/sciencefiction/liberatio.html > -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:58:35 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Susan Hericks Subject: Re: sci-fi "romance" humor and Snow Crash Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The needle is what I remember too! Susan -----Original Message----- From: Maire [mailto:mairen@BIGPOND.COM] Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 8:49 PM To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] sci-fi "romance" humor and Snow Crash No! I didnt laugh at all! UNless... do you mean the needle incident? what was it called.. a datana? I was, however, shocked at this mocking of Raven's dignity. At least YT still.. reached a satisfactory conclusion. But really.. I was actaully "going for" Raven... I have had a fierce argument on another list about whether or not he suriveved Enzo, at the end Maire Hard SF- Oct discussion "A Door Into Ocean" by Joan Slonczewski http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hardsf > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Jenn Martin > Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2001 9:55 AM > To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] sci-fi "romance" humor and Snow Crash > > > Heh, in response to Susan's wonderful sci-fi "romance" > excerpts...for those > of you that have read Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson, I think Neal parodies > the Romance genre perfectly when Raven takes Y.T on a date. Reading the > excerpts really reminded me of that freakish union! did people laugh at it > as much as me when they read it? > > Jenn > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 13:03:04 +0200 Reply-To: p.mayerhofer@web.de Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG The Fortunate Fall - Online Ressources Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quotes and excerpts from online ressources on _The Fortunate Fall_: Postviews http://www.cs.latrobe.edu.au/~agapow/Postviews/past_c-d.html#fortunatefall " What also feels right is the pervasive technology. Again, it is not always convincing (especially the part about live broadcasting of telepresence, which seems unnecessarily risky to me beyond any rationale) but contains much that is clever and memorable. Particularly noteworthy is a section that contains perhaps the most perceptive (and maybe the only decent) depiction of artificial life in SF. Although only a sideline to the main story, this has some clever vignettes like an computational ecosystem in which a creature that has evolved to blind its prey by flooding the system with millions of "look" requests. The book does have faults. The setting and story get somewhat congested towards the end, with a very protracted climax. The length of resolution is probably due to there really being two plots, Maya's personal problems and the story she is chasing. At points the story protests at the tension between these two and to a certain extent both just happen to her. But these complaints are visible largely in retrospect, and compensated for by the distinctive voice of the story: " Christina Schulman http://www.epiphyte.net/SF/fortunate-fall.html "Maya has run afoul of the current regime before; her libido and ten years of her memory have been suppressed by an implanted chip. (I find it interesting that the popular SF belief of the 50's and 60's that psychology will be able to fine-tune the human mind has given way to the belief that computers will be able to do the same.) Most of the final third of the book consists of the characters revealing a barrage of secrets at each other, which is a bit wearying, but on the whole the pacing and suspense work well. The story shows only brief glimpses of its most interesting ideas: the ecology of grayspace, the Unanimous Army, and especially the African technocracy. There are also wonderful tidbits such as sanctimonious rental cars, the world's most polite police force, nanobugs that run on Vodka, and a gratuitous Kibo reference." Michael Rawdon http://surfin.spies.com/~rawdon/books/sf/carter.html "The Fortunate Fall is another book about the "wired world" in the future, but unlike some of the other such books I've read recently this one takes place almost entirely in the physical world, and only briefly in "cyberspace". Since this effectively forces the novel to focus on how people use the technology, rather than the nature of the technology itself, I found this made the novel more viscerally enjoyable. [...] (The Army is reminiscent of Star Trek's Borg, and the Comprise from Michael Swanwick's Vacuum Flowers.) [...] The book's themes focus mainly on the efforts of Maya (and others in society, more generally) to preserve their privacy, and on Voskresenye's notions of intellectual and personal freedom. And in the end, another wrench is thrown in the works when Keishi is revealed to be the virtual persona of Maya's late lover. (This last seems a bit unnecessary and disingenuous, I felt.) Much of the book's emotional power comes from the fact that Maya is largely a pawn in Voskresenye's and Keishi's plans, and the largely isolated environment in which Maya lives (there are no major characters other than these three). This might be unbearable were Carter not so adept at expressing Maya's thoughts and feelings, which opens up the book's world a lot more than might otherwise have been. [...] Given that it is so strongly rooted in the contrast of different philosophies, I think it suffers somewhat from the rather abrupt ending (all plans of the characters are set in motion, but we see nothing of their results and aftermath)." Strangewords http://www.strangewords.com/archive/fall.html (Allyson Zipp) "Maya's simultaneous pursuit of external Truth and flight from suppressed personal history are revealed in a montage of flash-forward, flash-back, flash-sideways vignettes. The narrative threads through time and space, building in intensity and maintaining a tight but twisted internal logic for much of the book. Unfortunately Carter has problems negotiating a finish and the end of the tale unravels in a bizarre whale sequence. However, this is a first novel and its virtues far outweigh its somewhat unsatisfying conclusion. Indeed, although its structural flaw is more serious than the any weakness in China Mountain Zhang (also reviewed in this issue) The Fortunate Fall is a far more significant book." Richard Horton http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton/fortfall.htm "Carter pulls off a number of exciting, brilliant things. The nature of this new world and its history are carefully and slowly revealed, along with Maya's own past, and the resolution is well integrated, the tragic ending is both a surprise and not a surprise, and is "earned". The technological and social details of life in the FHN are wonderfully well realized. In many ways, this book is reminiscent of Sterling in the way future tech and future society are densely integrated with the narrative, and seem so possible. The terminology (Postcops, Weavers, greyspace, etc.) is intriguing, and is introduced in such a way as to seem natural (there are very few lectures), but also be part of the mysteries which are slowly revealed. The realization of the how "mindlink" technology might really affect the world, and also the images of cyberspace, are believable and original. [...} The book falls slightly short in a couple of areas (mere quibbles, really). Much of the second half of the book is a long narrative by the interview subject, and this method of telling the story seemed to me to create a bit of disconnectness. The story really has two protagonists, Maya and Voskrosenye (the interviewee), and their stories are well integrated, but still there is a slight slackening in that the two stories (Maya's personal one, and the story of the nature of Maya's world, which is mostly told through Voskrosenye) don't quite end in synch. Also, the Guardians are a bit stock as villains (though to be sure they are not the only villains). And I thought Maya's original crime was, well, not likely to be such a crime in the 23rd century. But I could be wrong about that. This book really provokes thought. One virtue is that much is implied and never told, and we have a sense of a whole fascinating underpinning to this world (such as what the African culture is really like) which is hinted at but not explained." Booklist http://www.ala.org/booklist/v92/33a.html#Carter (Carl Hays) "Carter's vision of a twenty-fourth century dominated by intelligence-enhancing microchips and twisted political ideologies is as breathtakingly imaginative as the accompanying story line is gripping. A mind-boggler than ranks with Gibson's Neuromancer and Stephenson's Snow Crash as one of the best novels about virtual reality." Publisher's Weekly http://bookwire.bowker.com/bookinfo/review.aspx?2423 "Like many first novels, Carter's suffers from occasional problems of pacing and structure. Even so, this highly literate, grim and gripping example of latter-day cyberpunk counts as one of the most promising SF debuts in recent years." Paired Reading Page http://www.steelypips.org/paired/fall_playrv.html (Kate Nepveu) "Both novels [_Fortunate Fall_ and _Passion Play_ by Sean Stewart] are narrated by a female protagonist looking back upon the events of the novel. Explicit reflections on the events and their consequences are generally restricted to the beginnings and endings of the books, creating a framing effect. This format allows the plot to be foreshadowed in the Prologues, but keeps the powerful emotional impact of the novels' endings. The stories are also subtly foreshadowed in the way the narrators present their stories. For example, Maya's early statement, "the poor camera, who can reach out to another mind only with mute eyes and vague bludgeoning words... well, it's like being an amnesia victim, coming home a stranger to someone who's loved you all your life" (14), applies equally to her professional and personal relationship with Keishi, though the reader doesn't fully notice this until the end of the novel. The novels' societies have some elements in common as well. Both possess more restrictive moral norms than contemporary America or Russia, norms which are enforced by the government and the media. Both protagonists aid this enforcement: [...] Maya unintentionally as a media figure, particularly a media figure with a suppressor chip. Both will eventually come to question this role over the course of the novel. The other major common element is the ability to touch another's mind, either by extrasensory powers or by technology; this capacity is the key catalyst of the plots and conflicts of the novels. These common starting points develop into novels of different scope and emphasis, but they still retain a common theme, which is best expressed in Passion Play as "abstractions can be rough on people" (166). While the attempt to balance people and principles is hardly an original or uncommon theme, it is still the obvious basis of all the major conflicts of the two novels. For instance, the crimes of The Fortunate Fall are all committed by individuals who are willing to pursue their image of humanity at great cost to humans. Some of the goals are more admirable than others, but they all use less than admirable means to try to achieve them. The Guardians murdered or imprisoned their undesirables; the Army fought back by possessing the minds of millions of civilians; the Postcops use cups of tea and the Weavers use brain viruses to tailor the social makeup of their society. Voskresenye is also guilty of this, and acknowledges it: That is what it means to be a Guardian.... The greater good is everything--and a greater good not to be measured empirically, but ideologically. Isn't that what I have done? I have sacrificed others to my own conception of what the world should be--a conception that, if it does anything at all, will bring nothing but unhappiness to most of Russia for decades to come. (244) This was Keishi's crime as well: her entire plan, from her death to her various resurrections (including the final one when Maya recognizes her), was entirely designed to advance a certain ideal of humanity, without regard to its effects on Maya. Keishi failed to balance her goals and their consequences carefully enough for Maya, and so Maya rejected her: "Maybe if you had spent your time thinking of me as a person, and not a variable, things would have been different" (287). However, that was not the only reason Maya left Keishi--she was also pursuing a certain image of humanity. Throughout the novel, she rejects Keishi's model of emotional intimacy via cable, and tells her, "People swapping souls on the first date. Once you've done that, what the hell do you talk about for the rest of your life? Nothing, that's what" (157). Keishi's final proposal that Maya host Keishi in a section of her brain inevitably contradicts Maya's beliefs too strongly, and she refuses, telling her, "You're crazier than Voskresenye.... You've forgotten what human emotions are like" (285). She has defended her conception of humanity, at the price of Keishi's survival. All of the characters in the novel have justified their actions as necessary in the pursuit of their ideals. Voskresenye, however, adds another factor. He argues that the one fact separating him from his enemies is that he intends to embrace the blame for what he has done. According to him, the wise man, when forced into evil, makes a scapegoat of himself.... He knows what must be done; he does it; and then he makes sure that the people he has benefited will revile him, because only that can prevent his crime from being repeated. (249) The concept of the scapegoat is useful in looking at one of the more interesting questions of the novel: did Maya, like the other people in the novel, become too much like what she hates in her sacrifice of Keishi? And does Maya think that she did the right thing? It is at least of passing interest that the last words of the novel seem to indicate regret or shame: And what I most want to conceal from you, you've always known: That I went up into the world and left her there, in the prison camp beneath the ocean, with the ruined mind of the new Iscariot and the body of the whale. (288) It is not entirely clear from the text of the novel whether Maya is attempting to make herself a scapegoat for Keishi's destruction, but it is an interesting possiblity. As for the morality of Maya's actions, there are ultimately cases to be made for all sides of the argument; however, it is a strength of the novel that Maya's motivations are ones a reader can sympathize with, if not necessarily agree with. [...] Thus, in these two novels, future forms of morality and empathy mix with the ideas of Humanity, Justice, and the scapegoat to produce devastating effects on the protagonists. The Fortunate Fall covers continent-wide conspiracies, while Passion Play covers one murder, but the impression the reader brings away from the novels is ultimately the same: abstractions can be, and in this case most definitely are, rough on people." FACT SF Reading Group Discussion http://www.crimeandspace.com/reading/sep97.html "Although many of us had grown tired of cyberpunk in recent years, we found this story to be interesting and well-told. The characters, especially the narrator, were well-developed and the prose style was eminently readable. Carter's speculations on the future of the Internet were well-conceived and plausible, and worked well as story elements. There were a few problems. Some of us found the constant use of 20th Century popular culture references distracting and confusing, and we were worried that it would date the book. As Wes Dunn put it, "I don't have a lot of connection with current culture." And while the political climate in this near-future book was interesting, many of us couldn't figure out how to "get there from here." " Emerald City Review http://www.emcit.com/emcit058.shtml#Minds (Cheryl Morgan) "The Weavers, as they are known, are largely uploaded minds, working at frantic speed in cyberspace. They have to be so to do their job properly. The only trouble is that in making themselves into ideal thought police they may have ceased to be human themselves. Indeed, they may no longer even understand what it is like to be human." Basilisk Dreams Books http://www.basilisk.on.ca/books/reviews/staff/fortunate.html (John M. Kahane) "The main strength of this novel is that Carter has created a world that is rich in detail, but where the reader must piece together the information while at the same time, following Maya along in search of her story. [...] The book is full of symbolism, drawn from such varied sources as Isis and Osiris, Orpheus and the Bacchae, and even Moby Dick. When it comes right down to it, the novel is full of twists and turns, with a complex plot that makes one sit back and digest what one has read." It has nothing to do with _Fortunate Fall_ but it is informative and funny to read: Raphael Carter's "Androgyny RAQ (Rarely Asked Questions)" at http://www.chaparraltree.com/raq/. Don't miss it! Petra -- Petra Mayerhofer p.mayerhofer@web.de Website of Book Discussion Group on feminist sf www.geocities.com/bdg_volunteers/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:40:38 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: Gumshoe, late as usual [SPOILERS] Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 04 Oct 2001 00:07:20 CDT." <200110040507.BAA14828@fort-point-station.mit.edu> As seems to be my habit I've just finished _The Gumshoe..._ a month late and have finally gotten to go back and read the comments made last month. This book had a lot of mystery elements--the neat tie-up, the clues scattered throughout the book, even the cover-up at the end seemed characteristic. It also did that annoying SF thing of combining medium-quality writing with some really interesting ideas. In fact I found Hartman's world far more compelling than the characters, who were often indistinguishable from one another. Many of them had the same speech patterns, the same responses, the same smartass lines, etc. I felt like you could have swapped several of them and gotten the same effect. And the typos were legion. And yet I was fascinated. I'd read the first chapter, it turns out, as a short story--I remember loving the logic of those Catholic gay teenagers. I was glad to read more about that world, and a lot of the pop cultural references were hysterically funny. ("Take Reagan, or Stallone in 2012." Puts Reagan in his place!) I didn't think the female characters were less real, though in retrospect it's true that they're more cool and collected. I did notice that although we saw a lot of gay male culture there weren't any lesbians, and the "gay area of town" seemed pretty male too. As to the immorality of the ending--it didn't strike me so much that way, perhaps because Calerant was dead and Stonewall (and that was an amusing name!) had in fact killed two people. Sure, Calerant was a little round the twist by the end. But what punishment should he have received? I can absolutely believe that to expose him would have been to give him the sort of publicity he'd have loved, even if it meant his goals were accomplished. Mind you, I didn't for one minute believe that all the religious rioting would have died down--a nation of conspiracy theorists calmed by plain old proof? I don't think so. --jessie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 14:40:22 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kirsten Hoyte Subject: Re: Gumshoe, late as usual [SPOILERS] Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <200110041640.MAA19541@buzzword-bingo.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU writes: >As to the immorality of the ending--it didn't strike me so much that >way, perhaps because Calerant was dead and Stonewall (and that was an >amusing name!) had in fact killed two people. Sure, Calerant was a >little round the twist by the end. But what punishment should he have >received? I can absolutely believe that to expose him would have been to >give him the sort of publicity he'd have loved, even if it meant his >goals were accomplished. I think it does get dicey because although Stonewall was clearly the biggest "bad guy," Calerant did kill the schoolteacher-pagan (Roberta Stevens) who he blamed for not coming forward with the evidence despite the fact that she had left Stonewall's employment (perhaps in disillusionment; perhaps in fear). Although he "forgave her". He also was responsible however indirectly for the violence stemming from the panic he caused. Kirsten Kirsten ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 00:54:05 +0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Fiona Wade Subject: Re: sci-fi "romance" humor and Snow Crash Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 The dentata is a wonderful touch, all Freudian or something I think - the idea of men being terrified that they will disappear or be killed by this threatening black hole, which here really does have teeth. What i like is that this is the only time in the book that Raven actually 'loses', this homicidal maniac that the whole world is in fear of, getting his pride pricked by a skinny 15 year old girl. And I had to put the book down I was giggling so much. Hooray the dentata, I say! -- _______________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup Have you downloaded the latest calling software from Net2Phone? Click here to get it now! http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/adforward.cgi?p_key=NH211JK&url=http://commcenter.net2phone.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 21:16:18 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: BDG: Fortimate Fall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why is no one talking about this book? I can't remember all the questions posed, but here are a few of them. Is it realistic to suppose that people will care about a whale? I think people are basically sensation=seekers. The National Inquirer DOES sell, with headlines like "eight year old French girl gives birth to twins who speak Chinese." Their sentiments of caring may not be aroused, but people love curiosities. At the same time, most people are conformist at heart. It's what gives the Right to Life, the Taliban, and the KKK power. "I'm right, and if you believe something different, you're obviously wrong. You are therefore going to Hell. Let me help you pack your bags." So therefore, yes, I do think it's also believable that the majority would turn a blind eye, and let the American McGulag happen. They would nod sagely and say "yes, I suppose that's so" when told that nobody wanted to be a homosexual, and those who couldn't control their own behavior would be happier with a suppression chip. Is it believable that our hero would run out and leave her lover to die with the whale? Yes. Eminently. Throughout the book, she fights to find her own way, to have her freedom, to not be tempted by either side, the good guys or the bad guys. When she recognizes that the woman doesn't really want to live in order to be with her, but only to live for the sake of preserving some kind of immortality, our hero has no choice but to let her go. That isn't love, it's leech-ism. So there. Anyone else have any thoughts? Anyone else read the book? ----s