From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:52:49 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:45 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0110C" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:57:38 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Mellen Subject: BDG for October into November Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu, feministsf@uic.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Discussion Groupers; This month of October wečre discussing; The Fortunate Fall by Raphael Carter. Discussion has been started. Hope youčre all getting the same beautiful weather we are (whatever season it is in your corner of the world). Do remember to order your books in plenty of time. Thanks to Mary Elizabeth of Mysterious Galaxy for making that so easy & giving us a discount on most books. mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com, or orders@mystgalaxy.com Blessings - Mellen For the BDG Volunteers Upcoming Books- 5 Nov. The Handmaid's Tale, by Margaret Atwood 3 Dec. War for the Oaks, by Emma Bull 7 Jan. A Women's Liberation: A Choice of Futures by and About Women, edited by Connie Willis and Sheila Williams 4 Feb. Illicit Passage, by Alice Nunn *************************************************************************** The BDG provides a forum for focusing discussion on a particular book during a one month period. The books discussed are nominated and chosen in advance by a vote of all members of the FSFFU-L list serve who choose to vote. Start thinking about your nominations now. To quote our list-mistress, "This does not prohibit discussion of the BDG books at other times; nor does it prohibit discussion of non-BDG books." If you have any other questions about the Book Discussion Group (BDG), it's selections, previous discussions or the Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy and Utopias Literature List Serve (FSFFU-L), you can start with the BDG website at; http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304, or the FSFFU-L website at; http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/fsflit/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:27:40 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Susan Hericks Subject: Re: Fortunate Fall Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dana, I'll be in my office Tues from 11-1 if you want to touch base on this. Thanks, Susan x2262 -----Original Message----- From: Carol & Phil Ryles [mailto:ryles@IINET.NET.AU] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 9:11 AM To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Fortunate Fall Hi, so I was a little surprised to see that there wasn't another > mention of Katya again after a chapter ending that suggested she could > still be alive (and believe it or not, I thought for a while that Katya > and Keishi were somehow linked or possibly the same person, mainly > because they seemed awfully similar in the way they managed people). Yes, I agree. I was extremely disappointed at not learning that Katya and Keishi were the same person. > Regarding the importance of the whale: Well, if the weavers made the > impact of the whale less important, or made people feel that way, then > it's kind of a moot point about its importance to this society. I tend > to lean toward thinking that in this book, people would not have > attached much emotional importance to the whale. People would notice for > the novelty of it all, but that living in a virtual world removes the > urgency of the physical, both the corporeal and nature. Now I have mixed feelings about the whale: At first I thought it would be important to this society because 1) the weavers are only interested in manipulating behaviour that threatens the present (at one stage Keishi tells Maya that the weavers forget things that are no longer important). If there is information about the history of whales on just one person's little electronic encyclopaedia, then maybe it would get out. 2) the extinction of the whales can be looked upon as a kind of genocide -- one of the horrors that weavers are supposed to be preventing. Therefore, having a survivor right there in front of everyone may well cause a stir. And what reason would the weavers have to prevent it? The last surviving whale would be a reminder of the horrors that were perpetrated before deviant behaviour was screened out. Then I moved on to the next question about why the horrors of the Unanimous Army made such a small imprint on general consciousness compared to the Holocaust: I think the answer is in chapter 17 where Voskresenye tells Maya that there are no telepresence accounts of people who experienced the horrors of the Unanimous Army -- there is only Telepresence of people talking about it, which is not the same. The reason there are no telepresence accounts is because Voskresenye claims that the weavers have filtered them out so that people will not hate the Gardians enough to think that the Unanimous Army was justified. I guess whether or not they would want to filter out knowledge about the whales depends on how much they would want people to hate or not hate the past. I liked the idea of the four Gods of Africa: His-Majesty-in-Chains (General sympathy), Only-A-Man (individual sympathy) and calculator-king (law). I once read an article about panocracy, where it was defined as an improvement on democracy -- A logical use of telepresence. But I found the conclusion that the only woman of the four -- the Unknown King -- should be the one who turns away .) I was kind of anticipating that she would be the invisible one, so was disappointed at not having an explanation as to why she should be the one to turn away. Did I miss an important hint somewhere or is this the reason why Maya walked away in the end? Carol. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:28:58 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Susan Hericks Subject: Re: Fortunate Fall Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" sorry, that was obviously missent!!! -----Original Message----- From: Susan Hericks [mailto:shericks@PRESCOTT.EDU] Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 5:28 PM To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Fortunate Fall Dana, I'll be in my office Tues from 11-1 if you want to touch base on this. Thanks, Susan x2262 -----Original Message----- From: Carol & Phil Ryles [mailto:ryles@IINET.NET.AU] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 9:11 AM To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Fortunate Fall Hi, so I was a little surprised to see that there wasn't another > mention of Katya again after a chapter ending that suggested she could > still be alive (and believe it or not, I thought for a while that Katya > and Keishi were somehow linked or possibly the same person, mainly > because they seemed awfully similar in the way they managed people). Yes, I agree. I was extremely disappointed at not learning that Katya and Keishi were the same person. > Regarding the importance of the whale: Well, if the weavers made the > impact of the whale less important, or made people feel that way, then > it's kind of a moot point about its importance to this society. I tend > to lean toward thinking that in this book, people would not have > attached much emotional importance to the whale. People would notice for > the novelty of it all, but that living in a virtual world removes the > urgency of the physical, both the corporeal and nature. Now I have mixed feelings about the whale: At first I thought it would be important to this society because 1) the weavers are only interested in manipulating behaviour that threatens the present (at one stage Keishi tells Maya that the weavers forget things that are no longer important). If there is information about the history of whales on just one person's little electronic encyclopaedia, then maybe it would get out. 2) the extinction of the whales can be looked upon as a kind of genocide -- one of the horrors that weavers are supposed to be preventing. Therefore, having a survivor right there in front of everyone may well cause a stir. And what reason would the weavers have to prevent it? The last surviving whale would be a reminder of the horrors that were perpetrated before deviant behaviour was screened out. Then I moved on to the next question about why the horrors of the Unanimous Army made such a small imprint on general consciousness compared to the Holocaust: I think the answer is in chapter 17 where Voskresenye tells Maya that there are no telepresence accounts of people who experienced the horrors of the Unanimous Army -- there is only Telepresence of people talking about it, which is not the same. The reason there are no telepresence accounts is because Voskresenye claims that the weavers have filtered them out so that people will not hate the Gardians enough to think that the Unanimous Army was justified. I guess whether or not they would want to filter out knowledge about the whales depends on how much they would want people to hate or not hate the past. I liked the idea of the four Gods of Africa: His-Majesty-in-Chains (General sympathy), Only-A-Man (individual sympathy) and calculator-king (law). I once read an article about panocracy, where it was defined as an improvement on democracy -- A logical use of telepresence. But I found the conclusion that the only woman of the four -- the Unknown King -- should be the one who turns away .) I was kind of anticipating that she would be the invisible one, so was disappointed at not having an explanation as to why she should be the one to turn away. Did I miss an important hint somewhere or is this the reason why Maya walked away in the end? Carol. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:39:05 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Mellen Subject: Correct FSFFU web site Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu, feministsf@uic.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all; Petra just brought it to my attention that I am behind the times on the current address for the Feminist Sci Fi web site. Here's the correction; http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/listserv/index.html. Thank you Petra! Blessings - Mellen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:08:25 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Cronin Subject: Re: Louis McMaster Bujold Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It was a *fabulous* book. It's interesting to see all the craftsmanship > she's learned from the Miles books applied to an entirely new world -- > it works much better than the Spirit Ring did. I know I'm jumping in on this late, but I agree wholeheartedly; my name finally got to the top of the library's hold list for Curse of Chalion a few days ago, and I read the whole thing yesterday. If anyone wants to discuss it (with a big "spoilers" in the subject line"), I'd be up for it! I'd be interested to see what others thought of the religion(s) she built into this new world of hers. -Sandy