From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:53:13 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:48 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0112B" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:38:00 -0800 Reply-To: publicity@mystgalaxy.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: speaking of America's melting pot of gods... Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See Neil Gaiman's AMERICAN GODS. Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 13:12:11 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandra Subject: BDG: War for the Oaks Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello everyone. Thank you Dave, Janice and Lou for the very helpful comments to date on War for the Oaks. I, too, really liked the sense of place Emma Bull incorporates but I don't know Minneapolis at all so I really appreciated Lou's comment: >> Since I live in and love Minneapolis, where the story is set, I identify very strongly with the plot: save my city!<< I really liked the early descriptions in the Prologue of the Nicollet Mall winding through the city "like a paved canal" and then the "voices in Peavey Plaza": it seemed an easy transition into a fantasy world. As Dave wrote: >>I really liked the mix of realism with fantasy. The realism is about a place, ..<< Lou also wrote: >>An antiwar feeling? Yes, I suppose, in that war is a waste of lives. But seemed to me that there was a strong theme of "Some things are worth fighting for" but the weapons needn't be swords or guns.<< The statements I was most interested in regarding war were the following: "A true war is one in which the blood of immortals is shed. Anything less has all the significance of a hard-fought game of football, to the Folk." (the phouka in reply to Eddi's question "There is a difference between a territorial squabble and a war?") and this "Death had won all night, and would do it again, on and on at every battlefield...." I think Lou summed it up nicely. I was also impressed by the very simple statement on page 304 in my edition: "We're all immortal until we die." Janice wrote: >>The most despicable? Stuart was the most pathetically nasty, but I didn't feel I knew him well enough to despise him. And I give him extra credit for coming up with a hilariously bad band name: InKline Plain.<< In the edition I have (2001, Orb Edition/Tom Doherty Associates), there is an appendix entitled "That Would Make a Great Movie" and it includes some scenes from a screenplay written by Emma Bull and her husband Will Shetterly. One of the scenes sheds a different light on the character of Stuart and until I read it I felt the same way as Janice described above. Bull points out: "Will and I were able to fill out Stuart's story and give it more resolution, something I couldn't do when I was writing exclusively from Eddi's point of view." Bull also explains that in the screenplay, the names of the Seelie Court and the Unseelie Court were changed to the Summer and Winter Courts because, although the former are traditional names in Britain, in this story the Folk are in America "and we wanted the names to reinforce the character of the two groups: one concentrated on growing, the other on dying, but each essential to the other's existence and part of the natural world." Janice, I especially appreciated your summing up of what was important to you: the City, the Music, the Friends and the Romance. I think if Hairy Meg had appeared a little oftener I'd have had trouble choosing between her and Eddi and the Phouka as my favourite character. She is very definitely, as you put it "a truly wonderful crone". The relationship between Eddi and the Phouka is indeed written strongly and honestly. "Wish fulfillment?" Janice said. Oh, yes, but, even more so, hope fulfillment. Bravo, Emma. Lou, I am looking forward to finding and reading Bone Dance. Thanks for the rec. Sandra ______________________________________________________ Send your holiday cheer with http://greetings.yahoo.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:24:40 +0100 Reply-To: divadiane9@compuserve.de Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Diane Severson Subject: Re: War for the Oaks Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: Hi Everyone, Finally, I've managed to finish one of the discussion groups with enough time to join in on the discussion. On 3 Dec 2001, at 14:13, Terri Wakefield wrote: > This months BDG read, is War for the Oaks by Emma Bull. I loved this book! It was thoroughly enjoyable and since I'm a musician myself all Emma's descriptions of what happened when they played music were icing on the cake! > A few questions....... > Did you find the human characters, the Seelie, and Unseelie > believable? Actually, I found most of the human characters to be pretty believable (although I think Eddi is too perfect to be true!). I found most of the Fey had clear personalities. But then I don't know what the Fey are supposed to be like so the way Bull chose to portray them was by necessity believable. Or better said, I was obliged to suspend any disbelief as to their characters because you can't measure them to human characters. > > Who did you consider to be the most likable? The most despicable? The Queen of Air and Darkness and all the other Unseelie characters are supposed to be despicable but I also disliked the Lady of the Seelie Court. The other Seelie characters and the humans (except Stuart of course) were all good sorts. I especially liked the Phouka from the very beginning. He seemed the sort of man that I think most hetero-women are looking for: Thoughtful and thought-provoking, kind, a good listener and good-looking. > > How did you feel about the various battle scenes? I was really surprised that Eddi got so involved on a personal level so quickly. But I realized very soon after that that was a big part of the message. Eddi couldn't just watch anyone who was on the Seelie side just die. She had to do what she could to prevent it. The scenes themselves were, like the rest of the book, told from a very narrow point of view - Eddi's. Because of this I think it is nearly impossible to give a real sense of BATTLE. It was very personal with short, intense fights. > > Did others get the feeling War for the Oaks had a bit of an anti war > statement to it? I'm not sure about this. I got the feeling that Emma was saying that there are things that are worth fighting for. If you don't stick up for your ideals and rights, then you are ambivalent about them and can't be upset about losing them. I think she was hoping that one would come away with the feeling that there are better solutions than war itself. Diane Currently Reading: The Fellowship of the Rings, JRR Tolkein; Recently Read: War for the Oaks, Emma Bull 4+/5; Harry Potter #1 4/5; The Red Tent, Anita Diamant 4+/5; All the Weyrs of Pern, Anne McCaffrey 3+/5; ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:24:41 +0100 Reply-To: divadiane9@compuserve.de Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Diane Severson Subject: BDG: War for the Oaks - Favorite Passage Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Hi all. Does anyone else make note of passages which touched you profoundly when you read them the first time? Like Sandra, my favorite one-liner was: "We're all immortal till we die". My most favorite passage in War for the Oaks is found on page 134 of my Orb Books 2001 paperback edition (toward the end of Chapter 9, after Hedge finished singing): "The song hung in the air like a gift tentatively offered. But listening was a gift as well, and Eddi gave it. In the exchange, as often happens, both gifts increased in value. fear and anger were gathered up in each single note, carried in ever-widening circles away from the heart of the room, and evaporated. It was not a lasting peace, but its effects lingered well beyond the end of the song." It shows Eddi as an incredibly sensitive person to others' needs and also puts into words what I hope to achieve (in some form) every time I perform. Goose-bumps! Diane Diane "scents of not known musics in whose careful eyes are dinned..." e.e.cummings ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:24:40 +0100 Reply-To: divadiane9@compuserve.de Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Diane Severson Subject: Re: BDG: War for the Oaks Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: On 7 Dec 2001, at 14:03, Dave Belden wrote: > Agreed about the music especially. It would take a musician to write > this well about making music, and how often have I read fiction that > does that this well, or half this well, with any kind of music? In > fact, I'd like people to name any novel that competes. I mentioned McCaffrey and Lackey but they don't do as good a job and Emma Bull really. Well, actually McCaffrey comes pretty close in the Harper Hall Pern books - at least the first one (Dragonsong). But I just remembered a pretty corny young adult romance that Ursula LeGuin wrote, "Very Far From Anywhere Else". The way she writes about the girl's relationship to music rings very true for me. That shows what a fabulous writer LeGuin is, because I don't think she is a musician. The passages on music I liked the best in War for the Oaks were the ones that related the magic which sometimes happens when musicians perform. I could absolutely relate as a musician and as an audience member - it was thrilling to read. Diane ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:24:40 +0100 Reply-To: divadiane9@compuserve.de Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Diane Severson Subject: Re: BDG: War for the Oaks Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011205195323.00a94ec0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> > So what was important to me? A lot, actually. There's a unique > chemistry in this book that makes it, at least for me, a revelatory, > life-affirming, read again and again experience. Yes, Eddi's attitude toward life and her responsibility to other people made me, strangely, proud to be human (as opposed to Fey - OK I read too much Fantasy!). She made being human pretty noble and worthy. I liked this about the book. So many SciFi and Fantasy novels make you want to be whatever creature it is that they encounter. This book was different. I'm from that corner of the world (Wisconsin) originally too. I could really relate, at least to the weather (don't laugh, this is an important thing to Midwesterners!). So often books take place in a certain city but you don't really get a feel for it as a real place, and those novels which have a fictitious setting don't have this gritty real feeling that Bull manages here. > The Music. Where would we be without it? And why don't writers talk > about it more? Maybe they just don't have the experience, don't know > the words. Maybe they just aren't as affected by music as I am. All of the above! I think it's a wonderful gift that Bull has shared with us. She has the ability to put music making into words and make come alive and mean something. Not an easy task. >Or maybe I'm not reading the right books. Anne McCaffrey was a singer and has put some good elements of music into many of her books. Mercedes Lackey does pretty well in the Bardic Voices series but otherwise I find them to be weak. Did no one else find Eddi's character to be too good to be true? I loved her, I want to be like her! She wasn't perfect, but when she made mistakes she owned up and learned from them. She was strong and a great leader without being over-bearing. Her relationship to each of the other characters was fascinating - she was a good friend and "boss". > The Romance. This is the book's biggest strength. Yes, the romance is very important, but I think the book's strength lies in showing how a human being can be honest and authentic and show amazing integrity and still be believable. > The relationship isn't presented as being about NEEDS at > all. It's about two people who genuinely respect each other, enjoy one > another's company tremendously, and get to have great sex into the > happily ever after. Wish fulfillment? Sure thing. And I love it. > > What about you? Absolutely! Thanks for a great email Janice! Diane Currently Reading: The Fellowship of the Rings, JRR Tolkein; Recently Read: War for the Oaks, Emma Bull 4+/5; Harry Potter #1 4/5; The Red Tent, Anita Diamant 4+/5; All the Weyrs of Pern, Anne McCaffrey 3+/5; ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:33:12 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marianne Reddin Aldrich Subject: Re: BDG: War for the Oaks Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed There is a young adult novel by Bruce Brooks, called _Midnight Encores_, about a cellist. It's classical, not rock, and more centered on the intimate experience of making music in a solitary fashion than on performing aspects. But the descriptions are equally resonant. It's one of my very favorite 'teenager' books. Marianne > >On 7 Dec 2001, at 14:03, Dave Belden wrote: > > > Agreed about the music especially. It would take a musician to write > > this well about making music, and how often have I read fiction that > > does that this well, or half this well, with any kind of music? In > > fact, I'd like people to name any novel that competes. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp