Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0201C" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 19:36:25 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Mellen Subject: BDG, Jan mid-month Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu, feministsf@uic.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Discussion Groupers; This is your mid-month announcement. Discussion has seemed slow on the January selection; A Women's Liberation: A Choice of Futures by and About Women, edited by Connie Willis and Sheila Williams. Discussion started on the 7th. If you still need next month¹s selection, Illicit Passage, check with Mary Elizabeth at Mysterious Galaxy. Thanks to Mary Elizabeth of Mysterious Galaxy for making that so easy & giving us a discount on most books. mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com, or orders@mystgalaxy.com Do be thinking about the next round of nominations. Also, if anyone would like to take over posting the monthly and mid-month announcements, I¹d like to give up the job. I¹m being pulled in a lot of other directions. Anyone? Blessings - Mellen For the BDG Volunteers Upcoming Books- 4 Feb. Illicit Passage, by Alice Nunn *************************************************************************** The BDG provides a forum for focusing discussion on a particular book during a one month period. The books discussed are nominated and chosen in advance by a vote of all members of the FSFFU-L list serve who choose to vote. Start thinking about your nominations now. To quote our list-mistress, "This does not prohibit discussion of the BDG books at other times; nor does it prohibit discussion of non-BDG books." If you have any other questions about the Book Discussion Group (BDG), it's selections, previous discussions or the Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy and Utopias Literature List Serve (FSFFU-L), you can start with the BDG website at; http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304, or the FSFFU-L website at; http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/listserv/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 22:38:30 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Re: BDG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have noticed that whenever we do an anthology of short stories, discussion lags. If no one has anything to say about them, why do you continue to vote for them? ---s ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:21:36 +0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Carol & Phil Ryles Subject: A womans Liberation Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like SF anthologies a lot and I liked this one, ( I've read 3 in the past few months). Unfortunately I'm very under-read in feminist fiction (but I'm working on fixing that), so all of the stories in AWL were new to me. Sorry I haven't written sooner -- it's school holidays over here in Aust (I have 3 children) -- and I wanted to spend more time writing my thoughts as my biggest worry is that I might say something really stooopid. Anyhow, I'll be brave, and write what I can in the little time I have before it's too late. . . I read the book from beginning to end late at night over about 3 days. The story I found most intriguing was Vonda N McIntyre's, _Of Mist, and Grass, and Sand_. Is this part of a novel because it seems unfinished? Admittedly, Snake's encounter with the strange, introverted desert tribe was a poignant tale in itself: Snake risks and loses a lot in order to help the others. Even so, I was left wondering about how the tribe came to be so mistrustful. Was their refusal to show emotion the result of the trauma of war? or environmental catastrophe? These traits are stereotypically masculine, yet there are hints that this is a matriarchal society: Their leader is a woman, The child's parents consist of one woman and two men. Does this mean that women are the minority? I was left asking "What happened to these people?" I guess in _Even the Queen_ Connie Willis was attempting to depict a future where clever women could control their bodily functions, while the Cyclists, not knowing what they were in for, opted to return to a more _natural_ state. I don't think the story suits this anthology because, the idea that menstruation is a curse is more characteristic of the mindset that feminists are challenging, than of the preferred choice of liberated women. In this future the technology has evolved, but attitudes haven't: Women's bodily functions are still being seen as distasteful, inferior, abnormal. Certainly not liberating for me. And if one is going to pick on the ickiness of bodily functions why confine the ridicule to women's bodies? Why not suggest rectal shunts? Nasal shunts? I read SF to discover alternatives, not just futures. I would prefer to see what it would be like if menstruation was seen as something other than a curse....Sounds like an odd thing to say in this society, but what if . . . . . maybe like in the chapter titled "Sex, Lies, and Stereotypes" in Riane Eisler's book, *Sacred Pleasure*, where she says that maybe during Palaeolithic times "women once accessed their strongest shamanic healing and during menstruation was then seen not as irrationality, but as an altered state of consciousness made possible by women's special biology." ....Much more thought provoking than the usual ridicule, I thought. Anyhow, I must go. Will try to write some more about other stories. Hope I haven't said too many stooopid(or obvious) things. I really enjoy reading everyone's comments on this list, Cheers, Carol. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:33:05 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: A womans Liberation Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <002d01c19f51$b5ca83c0$9eac3bcb@carolphil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carol- I woud suspect that the McIntyre story is related to her well thought of novel, Dream Snake. I havent read either the story you are talking of or the novel, thoguh I own the novel- do you think that I am right and that there could be aconnection? re Even the Queen- I have much the same thoguths. However, I think that Willis' intention was to poke fun at all parties. Maire Hard SF- Jan BOTM "Starfish" by Peter Watts http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hardsf Original Fantasy- Jan BOTM "ANubis Gates" by Tim Powers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/original_fantasy Soft SF- Jan BOTM "Dispossessed" by Ursula le Guin http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soft_sf > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Carol & Phil Ryles > Sent: Thursday, 17 January 2002 11:22 PM > To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSF-L*] A womans Liberation > > > I like SF anthologies a lot and I liked this one, ( I've read 3 > in the past > few months). Unfortunately I'm very under-read in feminist > fiction (but I'm > working on fixing that), so all of the stories in AWL were new to > me. Sorry > I haven't written sooner -- it's school holidays over here in > Aust (I have 3 > children) -- and I wanted to spend more time writing my thoughts as my > biggest worry is that I might say something really stooopid. Anyhow, I'll > be brave, and write what I can in the little time I have before it's too > late. . . > > I read the book from beginning to end late at night over about 3 > days. The > story I found most intriguing was Vonda N McIntyre's, _Of Mist, and Grass, > and Sand_. Is this part of a novel because it seems unfinished? > Admittedly, Snake's encounter with the strange, introverted > desert tribe was > a poignant tale in itself: Snake risks and loses a lot in order > to help the > others. Even so, I was left wondering about how the tribe came to be so > mistrustful. Was their refusal to show emotion the result of the > trauma of > war? or environmental catastrophe? These traits are stereotypically > masculine, yet there are hints that this is a matriarchal society: Their > leader is a woman, The child's parents consist of one woman and two men. > Does this mean that women are the minority? I was left asking "What > happened to these people?" > > I guess in _Even the Queen_ Connie Willis was attempting to > depict a future > where clever women could control their bodily functions, while > the Cyclists, > not knowing what they were in for, opted to return to a more _natural_ > state. I don't think the story suits this anthology because, > the idea that > menstruation is a curse is more characteristic of the mindset > that feminists > are challenging, than of the preferred choice of liberated women. > In this > future the technology has evolved, but attitudes haven't: Women's bodily > functions are still being seen as distasteful, inferior, abnormal. > Certainly not liberating for me. And if one is going to pick on the > ickiness of bodily functions why confine the ridicule to women's bodies? > Why not suggest rectal shunts? Nasal shunts? > I read SF to discover alternatives, not just futures. I would > prefer to see > what it would be like if menstruation was seen as something other than a > curse....Sounds like an odd thing to say in this society, but > what if . . . > . . maybe like in the chapter titled "Sex, Lies, and Stereotypes" in Riane > Eisler's book, *Sacred Pleasure*, where she says that maybe during > Palaeolithic times "women once accessed their strongest shamanic > healing and > during menstruation was then seen not as irrationality, but as an altered > state of consciousness made possible by women's special biology." > ....Much > more thought provoking than the usual ridicule, I thought. > > Anyhow, I must go. Will try to write some more about other > stories. Hope I > haven't said too many stooopid(or obvious) things. I really enjoy reading > everyone's comments on this list, > > Cheers, > Carol. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 08:08:28 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Cronin Subject: Re: A womans Liberation Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I read the book from beginning to end late at night over about 3 days. The > story I found most intriguing was Vonda N McIntyre's, _Of Mist, and Grass, > and Sand_. Is this part of a novel because it seems unfinished? Yes, "Of Mist, Grass, and Sand" is now a portion of the novel -Dreamsnake- > Admittedly, Snake's encounter with the strange, introverted desert tribe was > a poignant tale in itself: Snake risks and loses a lot in order to help the > others. Even so, I was left wondering about how the tribe came to be so > mistrustful. Was their refusal to show emotion the result of the trauma of > war? or environmental catastrophe? These traits are stereotypically > masculine, yet there are hints that this is a matriarchal society: Their > leader is a woman, The child's parents consist of one woman and two men. > Does this mean that women are the minority? I was left asking "What > happened to these people?" IIRC, the novel doesn't answer any of these questions, really, though it might give some clues. It's been a while since I read it, though. -Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 08:39:45 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sandy Cronin Subject: Re: BDG: A WOMAN'S LIBERATION Comments: cc: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > First note -- although the anthology title was inspired by the LeGuin > story, it was altered from Women's to Woman's on the covers, spine, and > half title (at least in my edition), but not on the title page, or the > page headers. I found this distracting, to say the least... Also, I > found a number of typos as I read through the text, which was > distressing, as the stories are all reprints and it seems that should > make eliminating typos easier... That's interesting; the edition I have (warner aspect 2001 trade paper, blue front cover with a face, purple spine and back), says "Woman's" throughout. > Were there FEMSF members who looked at the listed stories and read them > from other sources, rather than obtaining the collection? I'd only read a few of them before, and it was easier to just get the anthology. > Did readers feel the stories were all suited to the stated tone / > intention of the collection? Were there any stories you would not have > included? Are there stories from this area you would have preferred to > see included instead? Eh...I thought they were all interesting and thought-provoking...and the intro didn't give me much of a feel for what the "stated purpose" was, besides gathering some favorite stories by women about women. I don't know feminist short SF as well as I do novels, so I don't have any other nominees. > Did you feel the collection was truly a "feminist SF" collection, or > rather a "womanist" SF collection? OK, now you're splitting hairs, and I'm not sure how I'd define those as distinct, let alone how you're intending it, so I'll say...I don't know. :) > Did you read the stories in the order printed in the book? If not, what > method did you use? Favorite authors? Chronology of publication? More or > less familiar stories? I read them in order, which was interesting to me. The only one I'd read as a short story before, that I remembered, was Even the Queen. I'd read Zettel's fool novel, though, and McIntyre's Dreamsnake, and McCaffrey's Ship books. I discovered as I read it that I vaguely recalled Rachel in Love, as well, but I'd read it so long ago, it was almost new. > Which situations and / or characters lingered in your consciousness? > Why? I think July Ward interested me the most. I'd just finished reading "Passage", by Connie Willis, also featuring a maze of a hospital, so it was hard for it not to bring up associations from that, but I also thought the very idea of a July Ward was intriguing. I lived in a house with a couple residents for a year or so, back in college, and I've always thought it was horrible how brutal their schedules are, and every once in a while I ruminate over how best to overhaul the medical system in this country; this story brought another aspect into that, as well. (I do the same kind of thinking about education in this country, too; my parents were both teachers :). Reading Fool's Errand made me want to re-read the novel; I think that was the first book of Zettel's I ever picked up, and I LOVED it when I read it; it completely immersed me in the world, in the situation. > Did you read the collection as a whole in a short period of time, or > gradually, over a more extended time period? Read it straight through in a few days. -Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:36:35 -0800 Reply-To: publicity@mystgalaxy.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: ILLICIT PASSAGE Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mysterious Galaxy has sold all of our copies of ILLICIT PASSAGE. > If you still need next month¹s selection, Illicit Passage, check with Mary > Elizabeth at Mysterious Galaxy. Thanks to Mary Elizabeth of > Mysterious > Galaxy for making that so easy & giving us a discount on most books. > mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com, or orders@mystgalaxy.com > -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:03:29 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dave Belden Subject: BDG: A WOMAN'S LIBERATION Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020107162112.00a84ab0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I find I have a lot to say about Le Guin, so please be warned I^Òm posting a long piece here. If this is out of line, I^Òm sure someone will let me know! It^Òs a very long time since I read Le Guin^Òs science fiction. I read the Earthsea stories to my son a few years back. But none of her sf since the 1970s or early 80s, when I started to write novels myself, inspired by her writing as much as anyone^Òs. The calmness, groundedness of her tone, the beauty of her language and its simplicity moved me this time. I could feel my body calming down, a kind of joy spreading through me to read this prose. I felt I was in the presence of depth and wisdom, as well as of a real story teller. The voice sounded entirely true, everything believable. This in spite of the noticeable fact that there was nothing in the story that was technologically beyond us today, apart from interstellar space travel, and some hints that the ^Ñneareals^Ò (newsreels?) were in some way ^Ñfeelies^Ò (Aldous Huxley^Òs term in Brave New World) and not just movies. This technological backwardness is unrealistic, any way you look at it. The whole cell phone, PDA, web, net thing has happened so fast here in only the last few years, the computer thing entirely since Le Guin started writing, that it almost gives one vertigo to imagine a distant future, things will be so different. But in this story there are railways and cars, people pick grains off plants every day, plant rice in wet paddies; hospitals are big buildings with front desks etc. Some kind of technological reversion has happened, unexplained, to a very specific late 20th century tech level: she^Ò s unapologetic about this apparent flaw. Don^Òt get me wrong: I loved the story, but it made me wonder just why she is using a far future science fiction setting to tell her story. Another anachronism: At one point the group of radical teachers who are committed to teaching literacy, mourn that their work is irrelevant because the children who enter the net ^Ñhear and see and feel what the Chief wants them to know,^Ò which is summed up by one who says: ^ÓLiteracy is irrelevant. The Chiefs have jumped right over our heads into the postliterate information technology.^Ô The story is thousands of years in the future, and that is only just happening then? It^Òs what is happening now on earth. To get to different planets and evolve different kinds of eyes, etc. as in this story, humans would have to have been living with high tech (much higher than ours) for millennia. And yet a late 20th century issue, felt by every college teacher today, is presented as something new. It^Òs hard to think of a clearer example of someone using a science fiction setting (and mauling most of the obvious ^Ñrules^Ò or logic of such a setting) to talk about current time issues. I loved Le Guin^Òs response: ^ÓBooks keep words true^ÅIt^Òs cities that have to have books. If they don^Òt, we keep on starting over every generation.^Ô This is a great and simple truth. As my current (small) publisher^Òs motto has it, ^ÓBooks Remember.^Ô Reading it in this new sf setting, made it fresh for me. Maybe that^Òs reason enough. One of the nice things in the story, and I thought a bold thing in its way, was the race reversion: the oppressors are black. This is not a gratuitous insult to black people today, as it could appear. Quite the opposite. I read the message as this: the balance of the races in our world today is accidental, any human beings have the capacity to be oppressors as well as oppressed, give history long enough and they will be. I once had a women^Òs bookstore reject a feminist novel of mine set in a far future matriarchal society because the matriarchy was insufficiently utopian ^Ö there were power issues, some people were less equal than others. I thought I was doing women the favor of assuming they were human beings, and therefore (almost?) as capable of fucking it up as men are. Le Guin does the same here with blacks vis-à-vis whites. Maybe easier for a black person to do than a white person? Quite apart from that, she could not have done it so easily without the far future setting. So she^Òs in the serious parable business. You could say all sf is, but I don ^Òt think so. Much has that element (after all there are only so many stories) but is really more about making up clever speculative ideas for amusement, especially playing with technology (like Fool^Òs Errand in this anthology, which I thought very clever), or just finding new settings for the old stories (cowboys or knights in space): all of which I enjoy when well done, but it^Òs the searching for real truths that drew me to sf: e.g. Huxley, Orwell, C S Lewis, Le Guin, Mary Doria Russell. Le Guin is dedicated to telling us truths about ourselves, and she loves and respects people. I hated the contempt Connie Willis showed for her ditzy young woman in Even the Queen, who joins the Cyclists without ever taking in that menstruation involves bleeding: this was such a Valley Girl caricature, and obviously meant to be funny, but just came across to me (as Janice Dawley wrote in her comments on it) as insulting. It reminded me of college teachers who have contempt for their students ^Ö I hope Willis isn^Òt a teacher. Such a contrast to a book of Willis^Ò I loved ^Ö the Domesday Book. Maybe she should just stay clear of attempts at humor. The power of Le Guin^Òs writing is that she is talking about human beings, about our life now, and giving it different angles that can only be afforded by playing with the social setting and history. Mary Doria Russell explained about The Sparrow (for me the best science fiction I have read in twenty years) that she was not a science fiction buff, but chose sf because she wanted to raise the moral issues of one civilization meeting a radically different one, her imagination originally stirred I think she said by Columbus; and clearly the possibilities for that had run out in our world, so she had to invent an alien world. Likewise, I suppose, the Handmaid^Òs Tale packed its punch by purporting to be a realistic future. I^Òm interested in why writers who could and do make it in mainstream novels, turn to science fiction. I find that often their sf works are some of the best sf around: because they really have something to say of deep importance and this is the only way they can find to say it. Whereas a lot of sf is written be people who love the genre first, and then cast around for what to write about. A last word (thank goodness) on Le Guin^Òs anachronisms: She actually makes her future settings much more readable and accessible to her readers by making them so familiar, technologically: maybe this is one of the secrets of her success, paradoxically, as an sf writer, that there^Òs so little s in the sf. It enables her to concentrate on the different anthropologies, tribal and social customs her people are trapped in. I confess I only managed to read the first five stories and Le Guin^Òs in the anthology so far. Inertia I wasn^Òt much taken with: I guess I have burned out on near future doom scenarios, I have read so many, both science fiction and supposedly real. Most of the latter turned out to be Chicken Little: overpopulation is now billed to turn into a declining world population before my son is old; the oil didn^Òt run out and we will probably leave much that^Òs left in the ground when renewables take over. OK so there^Òs plenty of room for gloom with genetic engineering and global warming etc., and plagues we can^Òt deal with are certainly with us already, and much worse than AIDS can easily be imagined. But I just can^Òt see us dealing with a plague in the Inertia way: can anybody? Maybe it^Òs because there actually are enough real depressing possibilities that I have lost patience with extra, gratuitous sf ones? I was into doom in my 20s, in my 50s I need hope. Just a personal reaction. I liked Rachel in Love as a fantasy story; I rooted for her and was happy there was a happy ending, but it didn^Òt work for me as truth telling in any way. Was the purpose of putting the girl^Òs brain in a chimp^Òs body to reveal the horrific way we treat chimps in a new way? This is like those movies which are about an oppressed group but in order to give us a point of contact that we supposedly need, we see it all through a white American^Òs eyes ^Ö like City of Joy, where the best characters were the Calcutta slum dwellers, especially the rickshaw driver, but we had to see endless footage of Patrick Swayze instead. On animals: Why have humans as the measure of all things: can^Òt we yet tell stories straight from the chimp^Òs point of view? Dave Belden Accord, NY davebelden@earthlink.net web page: www.davidbelden.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 13:39:25 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: BDG: A WOMAN'S LIBERATION Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 1/18/02 10:03:42 AM Central Standard Time, davebelden@EARTHLINK.NET writes: << canâ^À^Ùt we yet tell stories straight from the chimpâ^À^Ùs point of view? >> I hesitate to comment because I haven't read the anthology (unless I have and have forgotten it. A real possibility. :>)). But just a couple of ideas you mentioned : why not tell something from the chimps point of view? can we really do that? when 'we' are doing the telling? Even if we claim it's the chimps point of view, it's really us imagining that. Not a bad thing to try, but, if we think we're really thinking like the chimp, we are kidding ourselves. So in some ways, putting a human inside a chimp seems a bit more honest. If I was going to be really hardnosed about it,I'd say it's a kind of arrogance to think we can really get beyond the anthropomorphic viewpoint. But,OTOH, I always do find it interesting when people try at least to imagine what some other being feels, even if it is probably an impossible task in terms of the truth of it. The trying is worthwhile. In that respect, I often feel you don't need to go to science fiction to find aliens to study; just imagining what a deer feels living in the woods or what a lizard is thinking - or whatever you would call its brains activities - when lazing on a tree limb, is as big a job as imagining what's going on in the head of some completely fantasized being on some distant planet. Here we do have the same planet in common, but maybe that just makes us more likely to mistakenly think we understand something when we don't. (Of course I could carry this further and talk about whether we can ever really know what's going on in another human beings head...even if they tell us some of it...this question is really about the whole problem of creating any fictional world...the writers task...so ...very interesting. There's the quandary, the challenge, and what's the better way to approach it? Making it real, believable, being truthful. It's at least easier in that respect to try to imagine a human mind inside a chimp, than a chimps mind.) The other thought about LeGuin's anachronisms: not in reference to this particular story,but....far future or near future, technological progress doesn't necessarily continue in a straightline, and , just in our little dinky present human timeframe, can go "backwards" relatively easily. Throw in all the various ways culture, politics, economics can twist and turn, and I think you can pretty well put very many oddities together and still be believable, because that's the way human society is - a hodgepodge of often contradictory beliefs, cultural and technological artifacts, political makeshifts, economics. etc., that may have a veneer of cohesion, but underneath, is a roiling mess.Or at least, from a logical point of view, it's a mess. Maybe not so much a mess from symbolic or other points of view but decoding the meaning is a lifes work, and more, for most of us, or maybe, all of us. It's a species wide human project, maybe. We individually construct our little worlds in the midst of all that and hang on for dear life. And much of the drama in fiction starts when characters begin to sense that their particular constructions are hiding something they hadn't seen or don't want to see. LeGuin is of course the daughter of anthropologists, whose job was/is to try to make sense of human culture.Probably she's more aware of the disconcerting flotsam & jetsom (is that the word? ) combinations in human culture, and the unexpected ways that culture can develop. Personally, I think fiction when done well does a better job than social science of finding the meaning in things. But...well, the science is but a tiny slice of the whole reality. Now and in any fictional world. Whether the "anachronisms" work or don't in this particular story, ..as I said...I can't comment on that. So consider these musings on a theme, not an argument with your critique of the anachronisms. -Joy Martin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 08:35:48 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: BDG: A WOMAN'S LIBERATION Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joy and all I agree so much with what you are saying about not needing to go to sf to find aliens- look at the ants, whales, deer, even pet Fido (certainly Garfield) What I find particulary ironic- is all the authors who write about aliens- and the aliens are little more than humans dressed in costume. When the other beings that share our own planet are so alien to us- how much more so would beings from other worlds! Yet the majority of authors seem unable to capture this. Maire Hard SF- Jan BOTM "Starfish" by Peter Watts http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hardsf Original Fantasy- Jan BOTM "ANubis Gates" by Tim Powers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/original_fantasy Soft SF- Jan BOTM "Dispossessed" by Ursula le Guin http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soft_sf > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Joy Martin > Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2002 5:39 AM > To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: A WOMAN'S LIBERATION > > > In a message dated 1/18/02 10:03:42 AM Central Standard Time, > davebelden@EARTHLINK.NET writes: > > << canâ^À^Ùt we yet tell stories straight from the chimpâ^À^Ùs point of view? > >> > > I hesitate to comment because I haven't read the anthology > (unless I have and > have forgotten it. A real possibility. :>)). But just a couple of > ideas you > mentioned : why not tell something from the chimps point of view? can we > really do that? when 'we' are doing the telling? Even if we claim it's the > chimps point of view, it's really us imagining that. Not a bad > thing to try, > but, if we think we're really thinking like the chimp, we are kidding > ourselves. So in some ways, putting a human inside a chimp seems > a bit more > honest. If I was going to be really hardnosed about it,I'd say > it's a kind of > arrogance to think we can really get beyond the anthropomorphic viewpoint. > But,OTOH, I always do find it interesting when people try at > least to imagine > what some other being feels, even if it is probably an impossible task in > terms of the truth of it. The trying is worthwhile. In that > respect, I often > feel you don't need to go to science fiction to find aliens to study; just > imagining what a deer feels living in the woods or what a lizard > is thinking > - or whatever you would call its brains activities - when lazing on a tree > limb, is as big a job as imagining what's going on in the head of some > completely fantasized being on some distant planet. Here we do > have the same > planet in common, but maybe that just makes us more likely to mistakenly > think we understand something when we don't. (Of course I could carry this > further and talk about whether we can ever really know what's going on in > another human beings head...even if they tell us some of > it...this question > is really about the whole problem of creating any fictional world...the > writers task...so ...very interesting. There's the quandary, the > challenge, > and what's the better way to approach it? Making it real, > believable, being > truthful. It's at least easier in that respect to try to imagine > a human mind > inside a chimp, than a chimps mind.) > > The other thought about LeGuin's anachronisms: not in reference to this > particular story,but....far future or near future, technological progress > doesn't necessarily continue in a straightline, and , just in our little > dinky present human timeframe, can go "backwards" relatively > easily. Throw in > all the various ways culture, politics, economics can twist and > turn, and I > think you can pretty well put very many oddities together and still be > believable, because that's the way human society is - a > hodgepodge of often > contradictory beliefs, cultural and technological artifacts, political > makeshifts, economics. etc., that may have a veneer of cohesion, but > underneath, is a roiling mess.Or at least, from a logical point > of view, it's > a mess. Maybe not so much a mess from symbolic or other points of view but > decoding the meaning is a lifes work, and more, for most of us, > or maybe, all > of us. It's a species wide human project, maybe. We individually > construct > our little worlds in the midst of all that and hang on for dear > life. And > much of the drama in fiction starts when characters begin to > sense that their > particular constructions are hiding something they hadn't seen or > don't want > to see. LeGuin is of course the daughter of anthropologists, > whose job was/is > to try to make sense of human culture.Probably she's more aware of the > disconcerting flotsam & jetsom (is that the word? ) combinations in human > culture, and the unexpected ways that culture can develop. Personally, I > think fiction when done well does a better job than social > science of finding > the meaning in things. But...well, the science is but a tiny slice of the > whole reality. Now and in any fictional world. Whether the "anachronisms" > work or don't in this particular story, ..as I said...I can't comment on > that. So consider these musings on a theme, not an argument with your > critique of the anachronisms. -Joy Martin > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 20:35:27 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: A womans Liberation At 08:21 PM 1/17/02 +0800, Carol wrote: >I read the book from beginning to end late at night over about 3 days. The >story I found most intriguing was Vonda N McIntyre's, _Of Mist, and Grass, >and Sand_. Is this part of a novel because it seems unfinished? > I was left asking "What happened to these people?" As Sandy Cronin pointed out, this story became the first chapter of *Dreamsnake*. I recommend the full novel. Snake's abilities and training as a healer are developed much more and the variety of people and places she encounters is fascinating. I don't think I'm revealing much by saying that it becomes clear that sometime in the distant past the Earth was irradiated by a nuclear war, suffered environmental collapse, and is now in danger of contamination by extraterrestrial life forms. The surface is a wreck, and is only sparsely populated by people whose knowledge of their own history is fragmentary at best. Still, it comes across as preferable to the insular underground city, Center, which though technologically advanced is inbred and wracked with political struggles. McIntyre wrote another novel, *The Exile Waiting* that is set in the city. It is really strange! (and out of print, though copies can be bought directly from the author through Basement Full of Books: http://www.sff.net/bfob/) >I guess in _Even the Queen_ Connie Willis was attempting to depict a future >where clever women could control their bodily functions, while the >Cyclists, not knowing what they were in for, opted to return to a more >_natural_ state. I don't think the story suits this anthology because, the >idea that menstruation is a curse is more characteristic of the mindset >that feminists are challenging, than of the preferred choice of liberated >women. In this future the technology has evolved, but attitudes haven't: >Women's bodily functions are still being seen as distasteful, inferior, >abnormal. Certainly not liberating for me. And if one is going to pick on >the ickiness of bodily functions why confine the ridicule to women's >bodies? Why not suggest rectal shunts? Nasal shunts? The introduction Willis wrote for this story in her collection *Impossible Things* sheds some light on this question: "I've gotten a bunch of flack recently for not writing about Women's Issues. You hear a lot of this kind of talk these days -- as if we were dogs and cats and parakeets instead of people, and had not only different things on our minds but different mental processes altogether. Shakespeare also gets flack, in his case for being a Dead White Elizabethan Male, which apparently limits him to addressing only Dead White Elizabethan Male Issues. (Are there any? What on earth are they?) I hate this kind of literary demagoguery. Anyone who's ever read Shakespeare knows he had bigger fish to fry than Elizabethan Issues. He wrote about Human Issues -- fear and ambition and guilt and regret and love -- the issues that trouble and delight all of us, women included. And the only ones I want to write about. But, as I say, I've been getting all this flack, and I thought to myself, "Fine. They want me to write about Women's Issues. I'll write about Women's Issues. I'll write about *The* Women's Issue." So I did. I hope they're happy." If the story comes across as insulting, it's no accident. It appears to have been conceived as a "take this and shove it" gesture from the get-go. I wonder who exactly these offensive demagogues were? Judging from the introduction to *A Woman's Liberation*, Willis seems to be harboring a grudge even ten years later! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: A Perfect Circle -- Mer de Noms "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:20:08 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: BDG: A WOMAN'S LIBERATION MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 11:03 AM 1/18/02 -0500, Dave Belden wrote: >I find I have a lot to say about Le Guin, so please be warned I^Òm posting a >long piece here. If this is out of line, I^Òm sure someone will let me know! Not at all -- it's always a pleasure. I have, however, snipped mercilessly. Re: the technology on Werel and Yeowe: >This backwardness is unrealistic, any way you look at it. Some kind >of technological reversion has happened, unexplained, to a very specific >late 20th century tech level: she^Òs unapologetic about this apparent flaw. >Don^Òt get me wrong: I loved the story, but it made me wonder just why >she is using a far future science fiction setting to tell her story. It all makes sense when you know that nearly all of Le Guin's SF is set in the milieu of the Ekumen, a sort of galactic federation of immense age whose base is on the planet Hain. Its mission is to locate, observe and perhaps make contact with planets that in the mists of prehistory were discovered and inhabited by humans then forgotten by the galaxy at large. In their isolation these populations may have developed skills unknown today (telepathy on Rocannon's world), may have radically altered biology (the androgynes of Gethen), or may have suffered total collapse and moved in a different social direction than any known on Earth (as in "The Matter of Seggri" or "Solitude"). Since the Ekumen are continually rediscovering worlds, Le Guin has great freedom to go in whatever direction she wants in a particular story, mixing and matching cultural attributes, technological advances or devolutions, and whatever biological variations she finds interesting. Given her oeuvre, the question at this point might be "why NOT set this story in a far future SF setting?" In this case, as you noted, she couldn't have made her point about the arbitrariness of racial divisions without the particular setting she used, and that's an important part of the story. I think it's also interesting that her mixing-and-matching has resulted in a society (on Werel) that corresponds to our current level of technology but also practices slavery and possesses a fairly rigid caste system. Le Guin doesn't believe in straight-arrow progress technologically or socially. Just because Western Civilization has taken a certain path doesn't mean that another civilization will develop in the same way (unless it is colonized and forced to conform, but even then there is local history). By tweaking one or two elements of a real-world situation, Le Guin can come up with a whole new set of problems and a very different flavor from one story to the next, while connecting them on a macro level and making it clear that all this can coexist -- it is all one enormously various reality. There is a political element to this design. She is saying that there is no One Truth, there are only local truths and the numerous connections between them; there is no One True Economy -- Hain itself is a sparsely populated planet scattered with agrarian villages, not a humming metropolitan center; there are no True Eternal Sex Roles, etc. This sounds like a critique of much SF that assumes the future will be white, male, and capitalist -- and it is -- but more fundamentally I think it is a critique of anthropological models that were discredited in her father's day but have continued to haunt the Western imagination. >I^Òm interested in why writers who could and do make it in mainstream >novels, turn to science fiction. I find that often their sf works >are some of the best sf around: because they really have something to >say of deep importance and this is the only way they can find to say >it. Whereas a lot of sf is written be people who love the genre first, >and then cast around for what to write about. I'm curious what mainstream authors you mean when you say this. You seem to be (and please correct me if I am wrong) talking about Le Guin, Russell and Atwood -- a diverse bunch whose approaches to the genre are quite different. Le Guin has always written realistic fiction, fantasy and SF and actively resists being pigeonholed. Russell is a newcomer with just two books to her credit, both SF. Can she be called a mainstream writer when she hasn't written any mainstream books? Or are you saying she *could* write mainstream if she wanted to? If so, couldn't the same be said of any number of SF authors? As for Atwood, I've heard that she denies *The Handmaid's Tale* is SF, preferring to call it a "dystopia". Presumably that avoids damaging genre associations and puts her in the company of acknowledged classics like *1984* and *Brave New World*. As time goes on, I feel more and more that genre distinctions are largely about industry politics and marketing, not about the works themselves. Mainstream is assumed to be the genre anyone would write in if they could -- there's more money, more prestige, etc -- and SF is for untalented hacks and "message" fiction. I know that is not what you are saying, but I do wonder why you have placed these two genres (and I do think "mainstream" is a genre) in juxtaposition this way. >I liked Rachel in Love as a fantasy story; I rooted for her and was happy >there was a happy ending, but it didn^Òt work for me as truth telling in any >way. Was the purpose of putting the girl^Òs brain in a chimp^Òs body to >reveal the horrific way we treat chimps in a new way? This is like those >movies which are about an oppressed group but in order to give us a point >of contact that we supposedly need, we see it all through a white >American^Òs eyes ­ like City of Joy, where the best characters were the >Calcutta slum dwellers, especially the rickshaw driver, but we had to see >endless footage of Patrick Swayze instead. On animals: Why have humans as >the measure of all things: can^Òt we yet tell stories straight from the >chimp^Òs point of view? I think I understand your criticism, but I agree with what Joy Martin said: >"can we really [tell something from the chimp's point of view]? when 'we' >are doing the telling? Even if we claim it's the chimps point of view, >it's really us imagining that. Not a bad thing to try, but, if we think >we're really thinking like the chimp, we are kidding ourselves." It might be more immersive and mind-bending to read a story told from the point of view of a character that is alien, but too often I find that such characterizations are cut from whole swathes of stereotypes the author consciously or unconsciously harbors about real-life Others. SF (particularly sci-fi like *Star Trek*) often cuts corners and can be very offensive in its stereotyping. With sufficient research and thought I believe the pitfalls can be navigated, but I don't blame Murphy for, in a way, just calling the whole thing off by making her main character mentally half human-American-adolescent-girl to begin with. I also think the story tried to do several different things, only one of which was to depict the treatment of chimps in American research labs. It trained a spotlight on the bizarre construct of romantic love and the piecemeal way young people learn about it. It metaphorically investigated the mind/body split and the ways it applies to adolescents whose bodies are changing and whose self-image is in constant flux. And it showed the process of discarding cherished ideals as a part of growing up. She really packed a lot in there, now that I think about it! Kudos to Pat Murphy. Well, this message has gone on much too long. I'd best send it, and hope that it all makes some kind of sense... ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: A Perfect Circle -- Mer de Noms "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:22:51 +0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dale Edmonds Subject: Re: BDG: A WOMAN'S LIBERATION Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rachel in Love has always been one of my favorite stories - I have it in an anthology somewhere around here (possibly Playboy, I'm not sure why. Their anthology is really good.) I wanted to comment on this as a piece I'm working on is trying to use an alien's POV, and I've not yet found a really satisfyingly alien POV in scifi yet - one that felt truly alien. I didn't read it as a POV from a chimp or from a human. Rachel was a strange blend of them, and the story to me was about how Rachel was neither one nor the other, how she tried on roles and had to discover for herself a satisfactory end. I didn't see it as a happy ending either - she lost a lot in her choice for her own safety, not because she wanted that. Part of the story that rang true with me was Rachel's grief at her father's death and that awful loss that can't be fixed, can't be altered, setting off the rest of the events - her choices are limited and she has to find a happiness in what she can. It does pack a lot in to a short story, and I agree with Ms. Dawley - adolescence, the mind-body split, the awkwardness of love and sex and attraction. It packs all these themes in but leaves the reader (well, me at least) with just a few strong images - Rachel in make-up, Rachel leaving the lab - and a sense of grief and hope for her. Dale Edmonds dale@oggham.com Also - if there are Ursula Le Guin fans out there, the-ekumen list at www.yahoogroups.com is in the midst of some really interesting discussion about Dispossessed. >>I liked Rachel in Love as a fantasy story; I rooted for her and was happy >>there was a happy ending, but it didn^Òt work for me as truth telling in any >>way. Was the purpose of putting the girl^Òs brain in a chimp^Òs body to >>reveal the horrific way we treat chimps in a new way? This is like those >>movies which are about an oppressed group but in order to give us a point >>of contact that we supposedly need, we see it all through a white >>American^Òs eyes ­ like City of Joy, where the best characters were the >>Calcutta slum dwellers, especially the rickshaw driver, but we had to see >>endless footage of Patrick Swayze instead. On animals: Why have humans as >>the measure of all things: can^Òt we yet tell stories straight from the >>chimp^Òs point of view? > > I think I understand your criticism, but I agree with what Joy Martin said: > >>"can we really [tell something from the chimp's point of view]? when 'we' >>are doing the telling? Even if we claim it's the chimps point of view, >>it's really us imagining that. Not a bad thing to try, but, if we think >>we're really thinking like the chimp, we are kidding ourselves." > > It might be more immersive and mind-bending to read a story told from the > point of view of a character that is alien, but too often I find that such > characterizations are cut from whole swathes of stereotypes the author > consciously or unconsciously harbors about real-life Others. SF > (particularly sci-fi like *Star Trek*) often cuts corners and can be very > offensive in its stereotyping. With sufficient research and thought I > believe the pitfalls can be navigated, but I don't blame Murphy for, in a > way, just calling the whole thing off by making her main character mentally > half human-American-adolescent-girl to begin with. > > I also think the story tried to do several different things, only one of > which was to depict the treatment of chimps in American research labs. It > trained a spotlight on the bizarre construct of romantic love and the > piecemeal way young people learn about it. It metaphorically investigated > the mind/body split and the ways it applies to adolescents whose bodies are > changing and whose self-image is in constant flux. And it showed the > process of discarding cherished ideals as a part of growing up. She really > packed a lot in there, now that I think about it! Kudos to Pat Murphy. > > Well, this message has gone on much too long. I'd best send it, and hope > that it all makes some kind of sense... > > ----- > Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT > http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ > Listening to: A Perfect Circle -- Mer de Noms > "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, > with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 21:27:43 +0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Carol & Phil Ryles Subject: Re: A womans Liberation Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janice wrote: > As Sandy Cronin pointed out, this story became the first chapter of > *Dreamsnake*. I recommend the full novel. sometime in the distant past the Earth was irradiated > by a nuclear war, The surface is a wreck, and > is only sparsely populated by people whose knowledge of their own history > is fragmentary at best. Still, it comes across as preferable to the insular > underground city, Center, which though technologically advanced is inbred > and wracked with political struggles. McIntyre wrote another novel, *The > Exile Waiting* that is set in the city. It is really strange! Stranger still, I remember reading *The Exile Waiting* years ago, possibly when it first came out. It was one of my favourites, and for a long time I looked for other books like it. I didn't find many, as at that stage I only had the local library at my disposal. I didn't know about Dreamsnake. Anyhow, I'll be reading both this week as my uni library has them on shelf :) Quoting Connie Willis: >"I'll write about *The* Women's > Issue." Oh. Cheers, Carol. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 22:30:07 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: BDG: A WOMAN'S LIBERATION Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200201201209.g0KC9p8r005485@oak.cc.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dale- I am at the ekumen too.. I think that was me taht started the Dispossessed thing, cause I just read it (obviously, if you see my sig) its died out a bit now. Amazing discussion at that list, eh Maire Hard SF- Jan BOTM "Starfish" by Peter Watts http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hardsf Original Fantasy- Jan BOTM "ANubis Gates" by Tim Powers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/original_fantasy Soft SF- Jan BOTM "Dispossessed" by Ursula le Guin http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soft_sf > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Dale Edmonds > Sent: Sunday, 20 January 2002 11:23 PM > To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: A WOMAN'S LIBERATION > > > Rachel in Love has always been one of my favorite stories - I > have it in an > anthology somewhere around here (possibly Playboy, I'm not sure why. Their > anthology is really good.) > > I wanted to comment on this as a piece I'm working on is trying to use an > alien's POV, and I've not yet found a really satisfyingly alien > POV in scifi > yet - one that felt truly alien. > > I didn't read it as a POV from a chimp or from a human. Rachel > was a strange > blend of them, and the story to me was about how Rachel was > neither one nor > the other, how she tried on roles and had to discover for herself a > satisfactory end. I didn't see it as a happy ending either - she > lost a lot > in her choice for her own safety, not because she wanted that. Part of the > story that rang true with me was Rachel's grief at her father's death and > that awful loss that can't be fixed, can't be altered, setting > off the rest > of the events - her choices are limited and she has to find a happiness in > what she can. > > It does pack a lot in to a short story, and I agree with Ms. Dawley - > adolescence, the mind-body split, the awkwardness of love and sex and > attraction. It packs all these themes in but leaves the reader > (well, me at > least) with just a few strong images - Rachel in make-up, Rachel > leaving the > lab - and a sense of grief and hope for her. > > Dale Edmonds > dale@oggham.com > > Also - if there are Ursula Le Guin fans out there, the-ekumen list at > www.yahoogroups.com is in the midst of some really interesting discussion > about Dispossessed. > > >>I liked Rachel in Love as a fantasy story; I rooted for her and > was happy > >>there was a happy ending, but it didn^Òt work for me as truth > telling in any > >>way. Was the purpose of putting the girl^Òs brain in a chimp^Òs body to > >>reveal the horrific way we treat chimps in a new way? This is like those > >>movies which are about an oppressed group but in order to give > us a point > >>of contact that we supposedly need, we see it all through a white > >>American^Òs eyes ­ like City of Joy, where the best characters were the > >>Calcutta slum dwellers, especially the rickshaw driver, but we > had to see > >>endless footage of Patrick Swayze instead. On animals: Why have > humans as > >>the measure of all things: can^Òt we yet tell stories straight from the > >>chimp^Òs point of view? > > > > I think I understand your criticism, but I agree with what Joy > Martin said: > > > >>"can we really [tell something from the chimp's point of view]? > when 'we' > >>are doing the telling? Even if we claim it's the chimps point of view, > >>it's really us imagining that. Not a bad thing to try, but, if we think > >>we're really thinking like the chimp, we are kidding ourselves." > > > > It might be more immersive and mind-bending to read a story > told from the > > point of view of a character that is alien, but too often I > find that such > > characterizations are cut from whole swathes of stereotypes the author > > consciously or unconsciously harbors about real-life Others. SF > > (particularly sci-fi like *Star Trek*) often cuts corners and > can be very > > offensive in its stereotyping. With sufficient research and thought I > > believe the pitfalls can be navigated, but I don't blame Murphy > for, in a > > way, just calling the whole thing off by making her main > character mentally > > half human-American-adolescent-girl to begin with. > > > > I also think the story tried to do several different things, only one of > > which was to depict the treatment of chimps in American > research labs. It > > trained a spotlight on the bizarre construct of romantic love and the > > piecemeal way young people learn about it. It metaphorically > investigated > > the mind/body split and the ways it applies to adolescents > whose bodies are > > changing and whose self-image is in constant flux. And it showed the > > process of discarding cherished ideals as a part of growing up. > She really > > packed a lot in there, now that I think about it! Kudos to Pat Murphy. > > > > Well, this message has gone on much too long. I'd best send it, and hope > > that it all makes some kind of sense... > > > > ----- > > Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT > > http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ > > Listening to: A Perfect Circle -- Mer de Noms > > "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, > > with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:09:40 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: BDG Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008B_01C1A2D0.B4512A80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008B_01C1A2D0.B4512A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi guys I know that the next round of nominations is coming up. You know- I have lots of feminist sf, books that I found out about from the femsf reading lists and so on- and many I havent read yet. I would dearly like to read them on a discussion list, as I know they will provide so much food for thought. But it seems that not many of those titles are being nominated? I mean- perhaps there is more of a leaning towards books that havent been discussed on the list? i dont know. I just thought it would be great if we could read some of hte unambiguosly feminist science fiction- like Charnas, Russ, ohh... Tepper, Arnason, Sargent, Marge Piercy, Severna Park, le Guin and all the hosts of others. Or do people feel that we already are? I dont know... I guess I just have to make sure I get those nominations in : ) Maire Hard SF- Jan BOTM "Starfish" by Peter Watts http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hardsf Original Fantasy- Jan BOTM "ANubis Gates" by Tim Powers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/original_fantasy Soft SF- Jan BOTM "Dispossessed" by Ursula le Guin http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soft_sf ------=_NextPart_000_008B_01C1A2D0.B4512A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 guys
I know = that the next=20 round of nominations is coming up.  You know- I have lots of = feminist=20 sf,  books that I found out about from the femsf reading lists and = so=20 on-  and many  I havent read yet.  I would dearly like to = read=20 them on a discussion list, as I know they will provide so much food for=20 thought.  But it seems that not many of those titles are being = nominated? I=20 mean- perhaps there is more of a leaning towards books that havent been=20 discussed on the list? i dont know. 
 
I just = thought it=20 would be great if we could read some of hte unambiguosly feminist = science=20 fiction- like  Charnas, Russ, ohh... Tepper, Arnason, Sargent, = Marge=20 Piercy, Severna Park, le Guin and all the hosts of others. =20
 
Or do = people feel=20 that we already are?   I dont know... I guess I just have to = make sure=20 I get those nominations in : )
 
Maire

Hard SF- Jan=20 BOTM "Starfish" by Peter Watts http://groups.yahoo.com/gro= up/hardsf  

Original Fantasy- Jan BOTM "ANubis Gates" = by Tim=20 Powers http://groups.yah= oo.com/group/original_fantasy=20

Soft SF- Jan BOTM "Dispossessed" by = Ursula le Guin=20 http://groups.yahoo.com/gr= oup/soft_sf=20

 
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