Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0201E" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:00:29 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: BDG: A WOMAN'S LIBERATION Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/28/02 5:28:04 PM Central Standard Time, jdawley@BELLATLANTIC.NET writes: << Literature. I was forgetting that word. How much feminist sf would anyone >put under the heading: Literature? Or is that not a feminist question? [Dave Belden] I have no objection to it, but I do think it's important to realize that some works of feminist sf may not make the cut as "literature" but are still important if what you care about is feminist sf itself. In fact, one could say that the very fact that a novel is feminist means that it will "illuminate the human condition" in a way that a non-feminist work will not. Depends where you stand. ;-) >>[JDawley] illuminating the human condition...well put. There's lots of writing out there discussing the biases presumed in the socalled 'universalism' of 'literature' , in the traditional sense. Not unrelated at all, actually, to the bias of presumed 'progression' towards the Western techno models. Glad you took the time to answer this. Many feminist and other writers, not in science fiction alone (not in literature alone either), have addressed these questions in great detail and thoughtfulness. Just lately I've been reading Adrienne Rich's 'Arts of the Possible', a collection of various essays over the last 20-30 years or so that touch on these questions.-Joy Martin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:56:32 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: BDG Progress Report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi folks! We're a little over halfway through the nomination period and now have five books to choose from: Gloss, Molly: WILD LIFE. Houghton Mifflin; ISBN: 0618131574 $13.00 Paperback - 255 pages (© 2000). Jakober, Marie: THE BLACK CHALICE. Ace; ISBN: 0441008968 $15.00 Paperback - 480 pages (© 2000). Murphy, Pat: THE FALLING WOMAN. Tor; ISBN: 0312854064 $11.95 Paperback - 287 pages (© 1986). Park, Severna: THE ANNUNCIATE. Eos; ISBN: 0380805022 $6.99 Paperback - 294 pages (© 1999). Smith, Deborah: ALICE AT HEART. Belle Books; ISBN: 0967303524 $14.95 Paperback - 320 pages (© 2000). Further details are available at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/bdg_nom_0201.htm We have till midnight Thursday (Jan. 31) to add to this list -- what say we widen the field a little? -- Janice, for the BDG volunteers ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Jory Nash -- One Way Down "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:55:43 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: [*FSF-L] feminist sf and "liteature"? Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'm teaching a course on how to teach college literature for our graduate students, and we have already spent a couple of hours trying to define literature (working with Terry Eagleton's "Literary Theory: An Introduction" as our first reading). There is no agreement about how to define literature (if by that you mean a characteristic of the text). That is, while on occasion a couple of students agreed with each other, nobody had a definition all 13 (and me) would agree to. The whole recent listserv discussion has been interesting in that few people seemed to bother to think they had to define what "literature" means (or, even "Literature"). Which implies they think that there's one shared definition, or one major one. Eagleton (and I) tend to argue that "literature" is simply whatever work a certain group in power decides is "literature" (i.e. that which is worth assiging a positive value to) at that moment rather than some essential OBJECTIVELY defined characteristic within a text. Are "films" literature? Is feminist sf literature? Is the issue even worth debating? My students in sophpomore survey classes have no problems defining "Literature": it's the boring stuff they assign you to read in class which said students mostly dislike and wouldn't read on a bet. Then there's all the books and other stuff they DO read (despite media calumny quite a few of my students, even in this poor rural part of Texas, do read) for fun. When I assign Octavia BUtler's KINDRED in my classes, the students almost unanimously report LOVING it (to their great shock).....so is it "literature"? I don't care. They read it. We talk (and wow do they talk). And I think they learned something. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 18:13:35 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Moriah Hampton Subject: Re: [*FSF-L] feminist sf and "liteature"? Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Additionally, the "Is feminist sci-fi Literature" question assumes (authentic) Literature is apolitical, while Other literatures advance political messages, advance propaganda. This split obfuscates the power relations, the politics, of Literary texts and their production. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Reid To: Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 2:55 PM Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] [*FSF-L] feminist sf and "liteature"? > I'm teaching a course on how to teach college literature for our graduate > students, and we have already spent a couple of hours trying to define > literature (working with Terry Eagleton's "Literary Theory: An > Introduction" as our first reading). > > There is no agreement about how to define literature (if by that you mean a > characteristic of the text). That is, while on occasion a couple of > students agreed with each other, nobody had a definition all 13 (and me) > would agree to. > > The whole recent listserv discussion has been interesting in that few > people seemed to bother to think they had to define what "literature" means > (or, even "Literature"). Which implies they think that there's one shared > definition, or one major one. > > Eagleton (and I) tend to argue that "literature" is simply whatever work a > certain group in power decides is "literature" (i.e. that which is worth > assiging a positive value to) at that moment rather than some essential > OBJECTIVELY defined characteristic within a text. > > Are "films" literature? Is feminist sf literature? Is the issue even > worth debating? > > My students in sophpomore survey classes have no problems defining > "Literature": it's the boring stuff they assign you to read in class which > said students mostly dislike and wouldn't read on a bet. Then there's all > the books and other stuff they DO read (despite media calumny quite a few > of my students, even in this poor rural part of Texas, do read) for fun. > > When I assign Octavia BUtler's KINDRED in my classes, the students almost > unanimously report LOVING it (to their great shock).....so is it > "literature"? I don't care. They read it. We talk (and wow do they > talk). And I think they learned something. > > Robin > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:03:34 +0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Angela Barclay Subject: Re: [*FSF-L] feminist sf and "liteature"? Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Robin: You've brought up a fascinating and frustrating question which I believe brings us into the whole realm of reader response theory- the general idea that what a book means comes out of the complex interplay between what the author meant, what lies in the text and what the reader got out of that text. As a result, ten different readers may have ten different views about what Candace Jane Dorsey's _Black Wine_ means and whether it should be classified as literary or popular fiction. A question that might be more fruitful than, "IS this literature?" is "What does this Do for its audience?" In other words, what are the cultural instrumentalities (a term I shamelessly steal from feminist SF film scholar Annette Kuhn) of a piece of writing? Keep us posted on your debate, Angela ---------- >From: Robin Reid >To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] [*FSF-L] feminist sf and "liteature"? >Date: Tue, Jan 29, 2002, 10:55 PM > >I'm teaching a course on how to teach college literature for our graduate >students, and we have already spent a couple of hours trying to define >literature (working with Terry Eagleton's "Literary Theory: An >Introduction" as our first reading). > >There is no agreement about how to define literature (if by that you mean a >characteristic of the text). That is, while on occasion a couple of >students agreed with each other, nobody had a definition all 13 (and me) >would agree to. > >The whole recent listserv discussion has been interesting in that few >people seemed to bother to think they had to define what "literature" means >(or, even "Literature"). Which implies they think that there's one shared >definition, or one major one. > >Eagleton (and I) tend to argue that "literature" is simply whatever work a >certain group in power decides is "literature" (i.e. that which is worth >assiging a positive value to) at that moment rather than some essential >OBJECTIVELY defined characteristic within a text. > >Are "films" literature? Is feminist sf literature? Is the issue even >worth debating? > >My students in sophpomore survey classes have no problems defining >"Literature": it's the boring stuff they assign you to read in class which >said students mostly dislike and wouldn't read on a bet. Then there's all >the books and other stuff they DO read (despite media calumny quite a few >of my students, even in this poor rural part of Texas, do read) for fun. > >When I assign Octavia BUtler's KINDRED in my classes, the students almost >unanimously report LOVING it (to their great shock).....so is it >"literature"? I don't care. They read it. We talk (and wow do they >talk). And I think they learned something. > >Robin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:04:17 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: feminist sf and "liteature"? Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020129165039.00965c80@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:55 PM 1/29/02 -0600, Robin Reid wrote: >I'm teaching a course on how to teach college literature for our graduate >students, and we have already spent a couple of hours trying to define >literature (working with Terry Eagleton's "Literary Theory: An >Introduction" as our first reading). > >There is no agreement about how to define literature (if by that you mean a >characteristic of the text). That is, while on occasion a couple of >students agreed with each other, nobody had a definition all 13 (and me) >would agree to. > >The whole recent listserv discussion has been interesting in that few >people seemed to bother to think they had to define what "literature" means >(or, even "Literature"). Which implies they think that there's one shared >definition, or one major one. Few? Dave explicitly asked if the question "How much feminist sf would anyone put under the heading: Literature?" was or was not feminist. In my response, I called the term "literature" political. And Joy pointedly commented on "the biases presumed in the socalled 'universalism' of 'literature' ". As far as I can tell, we (and now you) are the only people who've contributed to this thread; I think you've misread the discussion in a rather distressing way. >Eagleton (and I) tend to argue that "literature" is simply whatever work a >certain group in power decides is "literature" (i.e. that which is worth >assiging a positive value to) at that moment rather than some essential >OBJECTIVELY defined characteristic within a text. > >Are "films" literature? Is feminist sf literature? Is the issue even >worth debating? Why not? You said that you and your class spent a couple of hours trying to define the term "literature". Why did you bother? To my mind, just because there is no agreement on what the term means doesn't mean that it can't be instructive to pick it apart and see what biases lurk in it. (Mary Daly does this in *Beyond God the Father*; Joy mentioned Adrienne Rich's essays.) And the very fact that the term means different things to different people makes it interesting as a cultural study. As a final clarification, no one asked "is feminist sf literature". Dave asked *how much* feminist sf could be called literature, and I really don't think he was being sarcastic. I took him to mean, "what really great feminist sf works are out there?", so I named some names. What's wrong with that? ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Jory Nash -- One Way Down "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:51:16 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: [*FSF-L] feminist sf and "liteature"? Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hiya Robin, I am heading back to grad school in the fall and when I was in a scholar program there at university part of my research was to define just what it was I was going to discuss in a presentation, in my papers and so forth. I took Octavia Butler's Parable of The Sower as my subject and the theme was to use it to open a discussion about what is FSF and where it was in the scope of the field of literature. Before you can discuss a subject, sometimes it is good to define it to people who never thought of the subject in that manner before, or so my mentor taught me grin. I started out explaining the basic givemes of the subject, starting with the definition of fiction in general being a type of writing that reflects reality to a degree or it has faint resemblences to reality then takes off on imaginary tangets...then you draw this huge circle on the page that represents fiction, technically literature in general would be a circle surrounding fiction because non-fiction works such as academic historical papers, psychology treatises, those have their place on the spectrum to be all inclusive of the term, the term being so broad. Then under fiction would be another circle containing the types, 'literary,' 'romance,' 'science fiction,' and so forth. Then within science fiction would be cyberpunk, dystopias, utopias, and feminist scifi etc. That is the way to map it out for someone who never put it in terms of the subject being all encompassing. Of course I am on the side that FSF is a part of the field of literature in that it matters enough to me to be used as a teaching tool, you will find in every corner of the acadmic world people who would really want to shake that belief out of me hehe. With Butler's Parable I wrote about how the main character lives in a world desperately trying to cling to old values no longer relevant in the society they are struggling to survive in, and as I discussed how this worked, I also covered it in terms of why that work is seen as FSF and is relevant to the field of Literature as well. Your post sort of coincides with a recent trend since the school year started in colleges. A couple of people who belong to writing lists whose focus is on Science Fiction or Fantasy writing have been taking their Creative Writing courses have written to the list for help because the instructor for each said class would explain to the student who wanted to write Scifi or Fantasy why it does not belong in a creative writing course, wanting to stick to the tried and true reflection of social change school of learning how to write(reflecting real people, real situations the contemporary sort of short story process), noting that genre writing has no place in that particular course when it is a Creative Writing course. Which really doesn't make sense to me as a potential educator, to tell someone they cannot use their work in a writing course to help them write better because it does not belong there. I know to a degree you have to assign things that let the student demonstrate they have mastered certain concepts, or have improved in an aspect of the course that before they had difficulty with, but slamming the student inside a cell without any way out is not a way to teach. This is why am a bit apprehensive about going back to learn how to teach. Mechanics are universal, learning how to write creatively is not a formula, and am afraid if some advisor tries to change my way of thinking I am just going to clash and clashing isn't very good when you are trying to earn an advanced degree. Reminds me when I wanted to take an art course to relax and we had a grad student for a teacher who had so many little things for us manage outside of the art pertaining to a grade evaluation, I dropped the class that same day and left her to her little regulatory paradise hehe. Someone trained her to be too thorough and it showed so much about ten of us dropped the class that day. I told my friends to put a sack on my head and beat me senselessly with a stick if I ever got that strict about what I was getting into here. Am in a weird mood today hehe. As to the debate aspect of the discussion you posted, it can help sometimes because there are more students who are not coming right out of high school who may never have had a structured discussion defining terms in introductory literature courses, and through such beginning discussions there tends to be good interaction between students who normally would never speak up in a class setting. Am mainly talking about transfer students coming from community colleges who have avoided anything to do with the general ed English courses they need to complete their degree. Course then again if the range of students seem more well read it becomes pretty apparant quick that you could give a cursory review of terms then move on. By the way I am a transfer student too I started out aimless working a 3.35 an hour job and thought college was out of reach for someone like me. Was a wonderful woman at the local community college who asked me if I would like to take a class because when I was in high school I had taken the college placement courses that showed I had potential to learn(was actually there with my best friend who was reapplying to school purely there for his moral support). She talked me into it grin. There was one course I took studying Poetry and despite the fact I talked quite a bit in discussion during the course, when it came time to be graded the professor did not remember me speaking up a lot in class whereas I thought I was talking too much and dominating some of the discussions, which gave me an interesting view into how much impression a student can make through interaction with the instructor. Guess what am saying mostly is am taking cues from the professors who taught me and sort of remembering the nice things they did while teaching their subject matter that worked in the classroom moreso than other students whose goals were not teaching oriented. I have a lot to learn believe me. Oh dear went all over the place this time hehe. My overall point is to always give the options, don't cut the subject off at the knees just because noone else is seeing it the way you do. Am seeing a preponderance of graduate students who are getting very well trained, but seem to get caught up in all the regulatory stuff the college is having them keep track of and that shows when they teach. This is why am not really looking forward to going back. It might work out. If I can breathe. Jo Ann Who notices the view of Eagleton seems to follow that of the art aesthetic, that being art is art in the eyes of the beholder. > > There is no agreement about how to define literature (if by that you mean a > characteristic of the text). That is, while on occasion a couple of > students agreed with each other, nobody had a definition all 13 (and me) > would agree to. > > The whole recent listserv discussion has been interesting in that few > people seemed to bother to think they had to define what "literature" means > (or, even "Literature"). Which implies they think that there's one shared > definition, or one major one. > > Eagleton (and I) tend to argue that "literature" is simply whatever work a > certain group in power decides is "literature" (i.e. that which is worth > assiging a positive value to) at that moment rather than some essential > OBJECTIVELY defined characteristic within a text. > > Are "films" literature? Is feminist sf literature? Is the issue even > worth debating? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 18:15:23 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: [*FSF-L] feminist sf and "liteature"? Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Additionally, the "Is feminist sci-fi Literature" question assumes > (authentic) Literature is apolitical, while Other literatures advance > political messages, advance propaganda. This split obfuscates the power > relations, the politics, of Literary texts and their production. Yes, this type of discussion would come up when I presented my research at conferences. The first inkling of my audience not understanding where I was coming from would appear during the question and answer portion of the presentation. More often the female audience members, whether students or instructors or off the street participants in the discussion, would tell me in various ways how they did not think of FSF as literature they thought of the term feminist in the phrase "Feminist Science Fiction" to automatically encompass a propagandic sort of writing that was promoting a type of female writing purported to 'belong' to a type of woman most women are not identified with(closest example was one audience member thought I was going to bring N.O.W. into the discussion about the text). So after that initial surprise in the feedback received, the audience overall would express the subject of this subgenre had interested and intrigued them to look into it further on their own(and of course I would refer them to the FSF website for further investigation grin). And it may be just the nature of the beast, but each time I was asked a question that challenged the subject matter, it happened to have been by a male, who would ask me the following question in a rather sarcastic tone, "Isn't Feminist Science Fiction unnecessary because all you are doing is replacing a male protagonist in a science fiction story with that of a female, and any book can do that so what makes this genre relevent?" And of course the three times this occured, a collective groan from everyone who got what I was trying to say would fill the room and things got rather interesting. Course I am approaching this from a beginner standpoint, from someone who never thought of this subgenre in a way that they would even define it as a genre. The way the subject is perceived seems to come into play with the research I present, and after the presentation it is so gratifying to find people get what it is and what it is not about. Am sure the more I read and discuss the more complex the discussions will become but for now, for where I am out here in Southern CA, the participants in these conferences seem to come to the table thinking of the FSF subject with one set of eyes and they go away changed in that they learn what it really is and that it is not this, amorphic political thing that is supposed to be kept at bay by mainstream If that makes sense? Grin Jo Ann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:11:20 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "S. McInneshin" Subject: Re: BDG Nomination Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1) Theodore Sturgeon, Venus Plus X Paperback (July 1984) St. Martin's Press; ISBN: 0312944470 I think this would be interesting to read as it has been compared to LeGuin's Left Hand of Darkness, and some would even argue that Venus Plus X was a precursor to LeGuin's vision of an androgynous society. 2) Suzette Hadin Elgin, Native Tongue Feminist Pr; ISBN: 1558612467 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:30:45 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Organization: http://freemail.web.de/ Subject: BDG Nomination The Dispossessed Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I nominate The Dispossessed : An Ambiguous Utopia by Ursula K. Le Guin List Price: $7.99 Mass Market Paperback - 400 pages Reprint edition (September 1994) Harper Mass Market Paperbacks; ISBN: 0061054887 The UK edition currently in print: List Price: £6.99 Paperback - 318 pages New Ed (12 August, 1999) Gollancz; ISBN: 1857988825 Why? It is one of the most important and popular utopias of the seventies. From a feminist point of view it is ambiguous. >From a review by Victoria Strauss at SF Site http://sfsite.com/01b/dis73.htm "The Dispossessed -- which has not been out of print since its original publication in 1974 -- is perhaps Le Guin's most famous work, and arguably her most intellectually challenging. It's a book of opposites: a utopian novel that doesn't flinch from exposing the flaws of its model society, a feminist-themed narrative with a male protagonist, a social commentary that presents communal cooperation as the truest human ideal, yet focuses on the inevitable separateness of the creative individual within such a structure. Through these dichotomies, Le Guin examines the tension between human aspiration and human nature, between what can be dreamed and what can be achieved. This larger theme, together with Le Guin's mature mastery of her craft, give The Dispossessed a universality that has prevented it from becoming dated, despite its roots in the political issues of its time (the communal counterculture of the late 60s and early 70s, the original women's movement). The Dispossessed takes place on twin planets: Urras, a lush world that supports a number of diverse nations, and Anarres, Urras' arid moon. Two centuries before the story begins, the followers of the anarchist philosopher Odo, seeking an alternative to the oppression and corruption of Urras, established a utopian society on Anarres. The Anarresti anarchists aren't the bomb-throwing, chaos-loving dissidents of popular imagination, but idealists who believe that most human ills grow from living under governments, and that the only just society is one based upon communal sharing, mutual tolerance, and voluntary cooperation. "To make a thief, make an owner," runs one Odonian aphorism; "to create crime, create laws." On Anarres there are no laws, no property, no governors, no nations, no money, no marriage, no police, no prisons. Even the language, deliberately created by the colony's first settlers, reflects anti-propertarian ideals: there are no possessive pronouns. Shevek is a physicist who possesses the kind of genius that comes only once in many generations. His life's work is to unite the principles of Sequency (time moves forward in a linear fashion, like an arrow) and Simultaneity (all times are present at once; it is we who move) into a General Temporal Theory that, among other things, will make instantaneous communication possible across space. But in the environment of Anarres, he can't complete this work. ..." Petra ________________________________________________________________ Keine verlorenen Lotto-Quittungen, keine vergessenen Gewinne mehr! Beim WEB.DE Lottoservice: http://tippen2.web.de/?x=13 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:55:17 +0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Carol & Phil Ryles Subject: BDG Nominations Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to nominate: Sheri S. Tepper: The Gate to Women's Country, Bantam, London, 1989, List Price: $6-99 (amazon.com) ISBN: 0593016041 (pbk) Quote below is from: http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/authorst.html#tepper "A post-holocaust society has been designed by, and is controlled by, women. The protagonist of this story is a young woman throughout most of the story who has interactions both with the male society outside the gate to "women's country" and a Biblically fundamentalist society outside the territory controlled by the women's cities. The women's society has adopted a re-telling of the Iliad (from the women's perspectives) as one of it's fundamental myths. Tepper has been fairly successful in recent years and this novel has generated quite a bit of controversy in science fiction circles for its biological determinism and the ethical decisions made by the women who control the society. " Other reviews at: http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/womco.htm http://www.strangewords.com/archive/gateto.html Carol. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:59:08 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: [*FSF-L] feminist sf and "liteature"? Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <20020129235450.HPOR14335.priv-edtnes15-hme0.telusplanet.ne t@[161.184.46.246]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:03 PM 01/29/2002 +0000, you wrote: >Robin: > >You've brought up a fascinating and frustrating question which I believe >brings us into the whole realm of reader response theory- the general idea >that what a book means comes out of the complex interplay between what the >author meant, what lies in the text and what the reader got out of that >text. Oh, definitely, and I'm a proponent of that school of thought (as well as drawing on feminist, gender, cultural politics, identity politics -- all buzzwords I know, but shorthand for a lot of complex and interesting stuff going on around reading. And I've been thinking hard about this stuff myself (gadzooks I just realized I misspelled the word literature in the subject line! weird or what) recently. Because I have fallen madly passionately truly deeply in love with the film LOTR: FOTR (and remember reading Tolkien's books over a hundred times between the ages of say 10 and 17), and I have to acknowledge all the critiques of those texts on issues of gender, class, "race," etc. BUt I still love them and the film and find it curiously empowering..... Robin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:02:30 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: feminist sf and "liteature"? Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020129181506.01f42ad0@mailbox.bellatlantic.ne t> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Few? Dave explicitly asked if the question "How much feminist sf would >anyone put under the heading: Literature?" was or was not feminist. In my >response, I called the term "literature" political. And Joy pointedly >commented on "the biases presumed in the socalled 'universalism' of >'literature' ". As far as I can tell, we (and now you) are the only people >who've contributed to this thread; I think you've misread the discussion in >a rather distressing way. I thought the postings fascinating and most important -- leaving aside the question of definition - hadn't realized there were so few postings. >Why not? You said that you and your class spent a couple of hours trying to >define the term "literature". Why did you bother? To show them that there is not one definition, that any one "reader" (in this case, all graduate students, all potentially future teachers of literature on the college level) has one set of assumptions and definition while others will have another. I also contributed the real life practical fact that as future academics, they cannot assume everyone in their department will share their definition--nor should they! >To my mind, just because there is no agreement on what the term means >doesn't mean that it can't be instructive to pick it apart and see what >biases lurk in it Sure! That's why I did what I did for my class rather than lecture them! But I didn't see much picking apart in the postings SO FAR because the word "literature" or even"Literature" was just being used without any discussion of what that might mean. And that totally leaves out the question of how all of us have a range of definitions of feminism.... > I took him to mean, "what really great >feminist sf works are out there?", so I named some names. What's wrong with >that? > >----- Nothing, although I might have a different list and def. of "great" and so for everyone on the list. What is wrong with my asking the questions I did and contributing what I did? Robin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:58:53 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Tracy A Mitchell Subject: BDG Nomination Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'd like to nominate Gumshoe Gorilla by Keith Hartman Paperback (September 2001) Meisha Merlin Publishing; ISBN: 189206524X Our Price: $12.80 (from amazon.com) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ 189206524X/qid%3D1012401745/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/102-9558510-0406547 Editorial Review From Publishers Weekly Set in 2025 Atlanta, this sequel to Hartman's first novel, The Gumshoe, the Witch, and the Virtual Corpse (2001), features gay detective Drew Parke, his Wiccan partner Jennifer Grey and a large supporting cast of strange people. Like its predecessor, it employs the same irresistible zaniness and wit, multiple viewpoints, high sexual content (both gay and straight) and cheerfully chaotic narrative technique. Jennifer is hired by a young deaf-mute named Skye, who wants to find out whether her boyfriend, Charles Rockland (an actor, and one of five cloned hunks), is cheating on her. Meanwhile, Drew's sidekick and sometime lover, Daniel, is in trouble with the law. In both cases, it turns out that there's extremely nasty blackmail behind the troublemaking what might be called a family feud in real life. Add to this a band of Cherokees trying to get back Georgia, while lurking in the background are dueling televangelists, each with his crop of the ambitious or the thuggish (you expected the devout?), and it's obvious that the author has produced another engagingly weird novel of the near future, satirizing everything he can get his word processor on and doing most of it extremely well. In the absence of conventional narrative, readers can instead enjoy jumping from good part to good part. (Nov.)nominated for a Lambda Award in both the mystery and SF/fantasy categories. Tracy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:23:00 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: BDG Nomination The Dispossessed Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200201301130.g0UBUjC01649@mailgate5.cinetic.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not to start discussing a book before its even been selected... but I am curious as to this statement about THe Dispossessed..."From a feminist point of view it is ambiguous." I dont understand? clearly- the utopia is ambigious, but not from any factors pertaining to feminism... hence my confusion. Maire Hard SF- Feb BOTM "A Fire Upon the Deep" by Vernor Vinge http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hardsf Original Fantasy- Feb BOTM "Perdido St Station" by China Meiville http://groups.yahoo.com/group/original_fantasy Soft SF- Feb BOTM "A Case of Conscience" by James Blish http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soft_sf > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Petra Mayerhofer > Sent: Wednesday, 30 January 2002 10:31 PM > To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Nomination The Dispossessed > > > I nominate > > The Dispossessed : An Ambiguous Utopia > by Ursula K. Le Guin > > List Price: $7.99 > Mass Market Paperback - 400 pages Reprint edition (September 1994) > Harper Mass Market Paperbacks; ISBN: 0061054887 > > The UK edition currently in print: > List Price: £6.99 > Paperback - 318 pages New Ed (12 August, 1999) > Gollancz; ISBN: 1857988825 > > > Why? It is one of the most important and popular utopias of the > seventies. From a feminist point of view it is ambiguous. > > > From a review by Victoria Strauss at SF Site > http://sfsite.com/01b/dis73.htm > > "The Dispossessed -- which has not been out of print since its > original publication in 1974 -- is perhaps Le Guin's most famous > work, and arguably her most intellectually challenging. It's a > book of opposites: a utopian novel that doesn't flinch from > exposing the flaws of its model society, a feminist-themed > narrative with a male protagonist, a social commentary that > presents communal cooperation as the truest human ideal, yet > focuses on the inevitable separateness of the creative individual > within such a structure. Through these dichotomies, Le Guin > examines the tension between human aspiration and human nature, > between what can be dreamed and what can be achieved. This larger > theme, together with Le Guin's mature mastery of her craft, give > The Dispossessed a universality that has prevented it from > becoming dated, despite its roots in the political issues of its > time (the communal counterculture of the late 60s and early 70s, > the original women's movement). > > The Dispossessed takes place on twin planets: Urras, a lush world > that supports a number of diverse nations, and Anarres, Urras' > arid moon. Two centuries before the story begins, the followers > of the anarchist philosopher Odo, seeking an alternative to the > oppression and corruption of Urras, established a utopian society > on Anarres. The Anarresti anarchists aren't the bomb-throwing, > chaos-loving dissidents of popular imagination, but idealists who > believe that most human ills grow from living under governments, > and that the only just society is one based upon communal > sharing, mutual tolerance, and voluntary cooperation. "To make a > thief, make an owner," runs one Odonian aphorism; "to create > crime, create laws." On Anarres there are no laws, no property, > no governors, no nations, no money, no marriage, no police, no > prisons. Even the language, deliberately created by the colony's > first settlers, reflects anti-propertarian ideals: there are no > possessive pronouns. > > Shevek is a physicist who possesses the kind of genius that comes > only once in many generations. His life's work is to unite the > principles of Sequency (time moves forward in a linear fashion, > like an arrow) and Simultaneity (all times are present at once; > it is we who move) into a General Temporal Theory that, among > other things, will make instantaneous communication possible > across space. But in the environment of Anarres, he can't > complete this work. ..." > > > > Petra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Keine verlorenen Lotto-Quittungen, keine vergessenen Gewinne mehr! > Beim WEB.DE Lottoservice: http://tippen2.web.de/?x=13 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:25:00 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dave Belden Subject: Re: feminist sf and "liteature"? Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020130085930.009602c0@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am very simplistic, I think, and glad to be, on the subject of literature. I was using the term, for lack of a better term, for writing that is truly and deeply illuminating about the human condition. We can get horribly side-tracked into the debate about the power to make labels, like 'Literature'. That's an interesting discussion, but it's also one that can tempt us to get into a rather distanced 'objective' discussion of the sort beloved of universities, leading even to a point where one denies that it's possible or even desirable to try and be 'truly and deeply illuminating'. Some academics would laugh at me as a bumpkin for even suggesting that was what I was seeking in feminist sf or any other writing. I still think it's possible to be really moved and enlightened by a work of fiction. I know that's subjective, and will depend on a person's life experience. I think, probably, all contributors to this discussion and this list serve think the same, though you might get some flak for saying so in the wrong faculty common room. I think Terry Eagleton thinks the same too, by the way, from what little I have read of his views on postmodernism. In other words, I'm more interested in getting the imaginative power within myself to write stuff that is as good as it can be, with people like Le Guin (people who I think 'illuminate the human condition') as my guiding stars. So I'm in the list serve to try and increase my understanding of what it is that I and others find deep about her writing, or other feminist sf. That's what I was trying to elicit. On 'Literature': Yes, of course, what is labeled 'Literature', or anything else, is a function of the social power to make a label stick. But that social power isn't wielded as easily as many people in academe seem to think. It isn't as simple, for example, as to say that capitalists have the greatest power in our society and therefore all our labels are capitalist labels. There are deeply human things happening when we respond to art. As Angela Barclay wrote: 'A question that might be more fruitful than, "IS this literature?" is "What does this Do for its audience?"' I am with you on that. And I don't think that the 'canon' of 'Literature' can be easily dismissed, because it got there by having 'done something' important for a variety of audiences over a longish time. Camille Paglia has an interesting recent article on the topic at http://www.bu.edu/arion/paglia~1.htm. Dave Belden web page: www.davidbelden.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Robin Reid > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 10:03 AM > To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] feminist sf and "liteature"? > > > >Few? Dave explicitly asked if the question "How much feminist sf would > >anyone put under the heading: Literature?" was or was not feminist. In my > >response, I called the term "literature" political. And Joy pointedly > >commented on "the biases presumed in the socalled 'universalism' of > >'literature' ". As far as I can tell, we (and now you) are the > only people > >who've contributed to this thread; I think you've misread the > discussion in > >a rather distressing way. > > I thought the postings fascinating and most important -- leaving aside the > question of definition - hadn't realized there were so few postings. > > > >Why not? You said that you and your class spent a couple of > hours trying to > >define the term "literature". Why did you bother? > > To show them that there is not one definition, that any one "reader" (in > this case, all graduate students, all potentially future teachers of > literature on the college level) has one set of assumptions and definition > while others will have another. I also contributed the real life > practical > fact that as future academics, they cannot assume everyone in their > department will share their definition--nor should they! > > >To my mind, just because there is no agreement on what the term means > >doesn't mean that it can't be instructive to pick it apart and see what > >biases lurk in it > > Sure! That's why I did what I did for my class rather than lecture > them! But I didn't see much picking apart in the postings SO FAR because > the word "literature" or even"Literature" was just being used without any > discussion of what that might mean. And that totally leaves out the > question of how all of us have a range of definitions of feminism.... > > > I took him to mean, "what really great > >feminist sf works are out there?", so I named some names. What's > wrong with > >that? > > > >----- > > Nothing, although I might have a different list and def. of "great" and so > for everyone on the list. What is wrong with my asking the > questions I did > and contributing what I did? > > Robin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 15:55:58 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: feminist sf and "liteature"? Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << I don't think that the 'canon' of 'Literature' can be easily dismissed, >>[Dave Belden] not to overly belabor this subject (I hope), but the main problem with the 'canon of Literature' is what it dismisses, not that it is dismissed. And who does the defining of the 'canon'. As a reader and a writer, I can only think about that so long, and then I'm much more interested in what goes on exactly at the interface of the written page. What moves a person is an interesting subject, since, for example, one of the ideas feminists and others have had to fight to make space for in these kinds of discussions , is how the portrayal of women in literature that has claimed for itself to be speaking for humanity, is not only experienced differently by women (how we situate ourselves in the story, who and how we identify with the actors, etc) but even has been complicit in alienating women from their/our full subjectivity as human beings (by 'subjectivity', I refer to the whole existential question of individuals as 'subjects' not 'objects' in the story of their own lives and the story of humanity). I don't want to go into this at length, because it's easy to become very abstract and the best arguments have to be pursued reading the works out there and what their writers have to say about the process. Thus, this listserv, among other forums. Camille Paglia, as selfdefined antifeminist, is someone I read in the know your enemy vein, but not someone I give a lot of credence. Nevertheless, I will probably drag myself over to her article at some point just to see what she's up to this time. Leguin herself and also Tiptree, just to name a few more, have waxed quite eloquent on the problems of genre ghettoes in literature, as well as the problems of writing as women or as feminists. <> [Robin Reid] Nothing that I can see. I personally wasn't distressed by your posts, and the situation where people come in with some strawdog about what feminism is or isn't is pretty common, and you describe it pretty well. There is the question of relativism vs universalism, in terms of value and value of literature in this instance, which tends to agitate people. It's fun to hash over for a while, as long as you don't have people like George Wills trying to tell everyone what they should or should not read, and in the end, who cares what he thinks anyway? The big problem (these days, anyway) is the economics of publishing (and anything else, such as academic sheep,TV, you name it) which keep the work of writers unavailable to readers. -Joy Martin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 16:32:51 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: BDG Progress Report #2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit How nice to log on this afternoon and receive a number of nominations! A couple of notes... *Venus Plus X* was disqualified because it is not currently in print. (All the copies available on Amazon were used.) The ISBN number for *The Gate to Women's Country* was incorrect, but the book is currently in print and available, so it's a valid nomination. Here's the current list (a total of 9 books): Elgin, Suzette Haden: NATIVE TONGUE. Feminist Press; ISBN: 1558612467, $14.95, 320 pages (© 1984). Gloss, Molly: WILD LIFE. Houghton Mifflin; ISBN: 0618131574, $13.00, 255 pages (© 2000). Hartman, Keith: GUMSHOE GORILLA. Meisha Merlin; ISBN: 189206524X, $16.00, 400 pages (© 2001). Jakober, Marie: THE BLACK CHALICE. Ace; ISBN: 0441008968, $15.00, 480 pages (© 2000). Le Guin, Ursula K: THE DISPOSSESSED. Harper; ISBN: 0061054887, $7.99, 400 pages (© 1974). Murphy, Pat: THE FALLING WOMAN. Tor; ISBN: 0312854064, $11.95, 287 pages (© 1986). Park, Severna: THE ANNUNCIATE. Eos; ISBN: 0380805022, $6.99, 294 pages (© 1999). Smith, Deborah: ALICE AT HEART. Belle Books; ISBN: 0967303524, $14.95, 320 pages (© 2000). Tepper, Sheri S: THE GATE TO WOMEN'S COUNTRY. Spectra ISBN: 0553280643, $6.99, 315 pages (© 1988). More info available at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/bdg_nom_0201.htm 31-hour countdown commencing... ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Jory Nash -- One Way Down "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 15:19:53 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Kristina Solheim Subject: Nominations Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020124143613.00ab90b0@mailbox.bellatlantic.ne t> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'd like to nominate two books: The Wild Swans by Peg Kerr Mass Market Paperback - 450 pages (November 2001) Aspect; ISBN: 0446608475 $6.99 Two different interweaving stories that mirror each other in theme and character study. The first story starts in 1689 England, where 15-year-old Eliza finds her 11 brothers turned into enchanted swans. Rejected by her father, Eliza is flown to America by her brothers. There, Eliza has a chance of saving her brothers, until she is accused of witchcraft-and now must fight for her own life. In the second story, Elias, a young man living with AIDS in the 1980s, is also rejected by his family and must learn to live life on the streets. With his new companion Sean, Elias finally finds personal acceptance amid the ostracism of a scorning public. Like Eliza before him, Elias struggles to understand the needless suffering he must endure. Reviewer: Pandora Brewer from USA (amazon.com) "This novel is actually two stories woven together by images and thematic inferences rather than plot. Both stories are told in very spare, simple prose (though one feels distinctly more "modern") and I was intellectually engaged and certainly emotionally provoked throughout. I read the last hundred pages in one sitting, unable to tear myself from what felt like twice the attraction. It has been a long time since I have cried at the end of a book and although this alone cannot recommend your time, it is indicative of how much I grew to care about the characters and the troubling patterns of hate and intolerance throughout our history. I can see where critics would fault the not always subtle symbolism that connects each story, but the traditional purpose of stories like this Hans Christian Andersen's retelling was to warn, teach and ultimately transcend evil and danger. I think that Kerr captures and holds many universal and heartbreaking struggles within her fairy tale "net." More importantly, she will reach many people who might never have read one or the other story alone but when juxiposed with the more familiar, will open their heart in a whole new way. I was swept away and truly apreaciated the ride." I'm not sure if this book is particularly feminist except that it shows an interesting historical aspect of colonial America and a woman's place there (especially the characters of the Goodies), and a realistic look at monogamy within the gay culture of the 80's (and even today, IMHO), as well as touching on class segregation. When I finished reading this book (after wiping tears from my face), I wanted to share it with everyone. A Gift upon the Shore by M. K. Wren Paperback - 388 pages (January 2001) Lightning Source; ISBN: 0595143415 List Price: $19.95 Used: $7.95 A Gift upon the Shore is a lyrical, haunting story of two women, an artist and a writer, surviving in a dark near future. Driven by rich and fully drawn characters, this is a powerful, compelling story of a friendship that survives the devastation, only to face a more difficult test from the 'gift' found upon the shore... It is also about remaining human under the worst of conditions, and the humanizing influence of books and art, even when their existence is threatened. Reviewer: BHillan from Beloit, WI USA (amazon.com) "I am a prolific reader who especially enjoys books that deal with "post apocolyptic" story lines. But "A Gift Upon The Shore" is that and so much more. I read it over and over again. I have a large library and re-read many of my favorites, but each time I see this book I want to pick it up and read it again. It is, to me, the perfect book for a writer to read. If you love books, and all that they represent you will love "A Gift Upon The Shore". I believe that once you've read it you will never forget the story and the two women (no make that three women) who are so much a part of the tale." I'm not sure if this book can be nominated because of its high price... but the reviews I read of it were very interesting... some compared it to the Handmaid's Tale. I plan to buy and read it even if it's not one of our books. Ciao! Kristina ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:59:16 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Terri Wakefield Subject: Re: BDG Progress Report #2 Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020130154441.01f43670@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I would like to nominate: Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy List Price: $6.99 Mass Market Paperback Reissue edition (January 1990) Crest; ISBN: 0449210820; >From 500 Great Books by Women; review by Holly Smith With honest and compelling prose, Marge Piercy delves into the mind of thirty-seven-year-old Consuelo (Connie) Ramos, a woman who exists on the fringes of life in contemporary New York City. Early in the novel Connie beats up her niece's pimp and is committed - again - to the psychiatric ward in Bellevue Hospital. The novel shifts between the horrible conditions in psychiatric wards and the year 2137, as Connie at first talks to, then time travels with Luciente, a person from that future time. Luciente lives in a non-sexist, communal country where people's survival is ensured based on need, not money. A sense of freedom, choice, and safety are part of Luciente's world; Connie's world is the complete opposite. Though Connie struggles to stand up for herself and others in the treatment centers, she knows that the drugs she is forced to take weaken her in every way. She knows she shouldn't be there, knows how to play the game, and tells herself "You want to stop acting out. Speak up in Tuesday group therapy (but not too much and never about staff or how lousy this place was) and volunteer to clean up after the others." But she knows she is stuck. Connie spends more time "away" with Luciente, trying to develop a way out of her hell. Ultimately Connie makes her plan of action, and the book leaves us with our own questions about Connie's insanity and decisions. Just under the wire, Terri Wakefield ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:08:36 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: AW: [*FSF-L*] BDG Nomination The Dispossessed Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maire wrote: > Not to start discussing a book before its even been > selected... but I am > curious as to this statement about THe Dispossessed..."From a > feminist point > of view it is ambiguous." > I dont understand? clearly- the utopia is ambigious, but not from any > factors pertaining to feminism... hence my confusion. it's more than 10 years since I read _The Dispossessed_, so my recollection is dim. As far as I remember the novel is often criticized because of how Shevek's wife and mother are presented. While it is _said_ that the society is egalitarian, _shown_ is a rather traditional work split between the genius and the supportive wife who cares for the children. Shevek's mother is a 'career woman' but a cold fish. Well, we can discuss this better after we've all (re-) read the book. Petra ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:15:19 -0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sarah Caufield Subject: Re: AW: [*FSF-L*] BDG Nomination The Dispossessed Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <001301c1aaa3$e2248580$152ea8c0@pc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi.. i've been lurking on this list for awhile, and appreciated the ideas brought up in discussions. this is the first post, though, so hello, i'm sarah, pleased to meet y'all.. just have a little comment about The Dispossessed - Petra wrote, re: D being ambiguously feminist: > it's more than 10 years since I read _The Dispossessed_, so my recollection > is dim. As far as I remember the novel is often criticized because of how > Shevek's wife and mother are presented. While it is _said_ that the society > is egalitarian, _shown_ is a rather traditional work split between the > genius and the supportive wife who cares for the children. Shevek's mother > is a 'career woman' but a cold fish. Well, we can discuss this better after > we've all (re-) read the book. not trying to start a discussion at the moment, but i just read this book in one of my classes (on women and utopias, actually, which is why i found this list in the first place - doing research), and the prof mentioned how ursula leguin considered her book to still be a pre-feminist novel, that some of the ideas were there but were never fully developed. i'll check my notes when i get home, but i believe that's the way it went (suddenly second-guessing meself here). and as petra points out, there are a number of aspects to the representation of women, both for and against feminist ideals. but i'll hold back until it officially comes up later. just thought i'd throw in my two cents at the moment. sarah :) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:36:31 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: AW: [*FSF-L*] BDG Nomination The Dispossessed Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I dont think its not feminist at all, personally. Just reflecting normal differences in women, people etc. DO not read further if you havent read book (ie, Spoiler) I just read Dispossessed, and discussed it in group. Shevek's mother, was who Shevek got his genius from, but in her, it ..didnt blossom I suppose you would say. As with Shevek, the work was the most impt for her. Shevek's wife had her own very impt career, she was certainly not just a supportive mother and wife. She choose to keep her child with her during hte drought years, because she was already separated from Shevek. I think that to say taht the book is not feminist just because you have one woman who, like Shevek, is a genius whose work is most important to her, and antoher who has a child with her, is to interpret the book through sexual stereotypes. To call them a cold fish and a supportive mother, is to deny how much, howw very much more than that, they were. The protagonist of this book is a man, a genius. I hadlt think that the book is not feminist because his partner is suportive. After all- there are comparisons made between Shevek's partner, Tea? and Odo's husband= both in the same role. Its not a role definied by sex. I dont think that the Odonian society is suppose to be *feminist*- the feminism is more presented a side effect or logical conclusion/result of its anarchic idealogy. If there is any deficiency in the representation of women, perhaps its just that le Guin chose a man to play Shevek, which then places the partner in role of support. Maire Hard SF- Feb BOTM "A Fire Upon the Deep" by Vernor Vinge http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hardsf Original Fantasy- Feb BOTM "Perdido St Station" by China Meiville http://groups.yahoo.com/group/original_fantasy Soft SF- Feb BOTM "A Case of Conscience" by James Blish http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soft_sf > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Sarah Caufield > Sent: Friday, 1 February 2002 9:15 AM > To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] AW: [*FSF-L*] BDG Nomination The Dispossessed > > > hi.. i've been lurking on this list for awhile, and appreciated the ideas > brought up in discussions. this is the first post, though, so hello, > i'm sarah, pleased to meet y'all.. > > just have a little comment about The Dispossessed - > > Petra wrote, re: D being ambiguously feminist: > > > it's more than 10 years since I read _The Dispossessed_, so my > recollection > > is dim. As far as I remember the novel is often criticized > because of how > > Shevek's wife and mother are presented. While it is _said_ that > the society > > is egalitarian, _shown_ is a rather traditional work split between the > > genius and the supportive wife who cares for the children. > Shevek's mother > > is a 'career woman' but a cold fish. Well, we can discuss this > better after > > we've all (re-) read the book. > > > not trying to start a discussion at the moment, but i just read this book > in one of my classes (on women and utopias, actually, which is why i found > this list in the first place - doing research), and the prof mentioned how > ursula leguin considered her book to still be a pre-feminist novel, that > some of the ideas were there but were never fully developed. i'll check my > notes when i get home, but i believe that's the way it went (suddenly > second-guessing meself here). and as petra points out, there are a number > of aspects to the representation of women, both for and against feminist > ideals. > > but i'll hold back until it officially comes up later. just thought i'd > throw in my two cents at the moment. > > sarah :) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:15:42 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: AW: [*FSF-L*] BDG Nomination The Dispossessed Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/31/02 7:48:39 PM Central Standard Time, mairen@BIGPOND.COM writes: << I dont think its not feminist at all, personally. Just reflecting normal differences in women, people etc. >> >From what I remember of the book your comments (including the spoiler notes) are the way I remember it. Many explorations of gender roles and consequences of changes in the society on same. Exploring that is a feminist thought experiment, even if, as you say, LeGuin considers it pre-feminist in a sense. But hey, we're already talking about this book as if people had voted for it as the choice to come. If not this time, some time, I'm sure.-Joy Martin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:06:37 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: BDG Progress Report #3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It's past midnight in snowy Vermont, so I thought I would post the final list and a couple of comments before voting. First off, as of 12:00 AM EST (Eastern Standard Time), you can send your BDG ballots to Terri Wakefield at terrierg@MAINE.RR.COM When voting, please choose FOUR books from the list of nominations, RANKED IN ORDER OF PREFERENCE, so that close contenders may be more easily distinguished from one another. And just to make sure everyone knows, one of the nominees, *Gumshoe Gorilla*, is the second book in a series. That has been important to people in the past, so I thought I would note it for any who weren't aware of it. The previous book, "The Gumshoe, the Witch, and the Virtual Corpse" was a selection in Sept. 2001. As of now, the nominees (a total of 12) are as follows: Elgin, Suzette Haden: NATIVE TONGUE. Feminist Press; ISBN: 1558612467, $14.95, 320 pages (© 1984). Gloss, Molly: WILD LIFE. Houghton Mifflin; ISBN: 0618131574, $13.00, 255 pages (© 2000). Hartman, Keith: GUMSHOE GORILLA. Meisha Merlin; ISBN: 189206524X, $16.00, 400 pages (© 2001). Jakober, Marie: THE BLACK CHALICE. Ace Books; ISBN: 0441008968, $15.00, 480 pages (© 2000). Kerr, Peg: THE WILD SWANS. Aspect; ISBN: 0446608475, $6.99, 450 pages (© 1999). Le Guin, Ursula K: THE DISPOSSESSED. Harper; ISBN: 0061054887, $7.99, 400 pages (© 1974). Murphy, Pat: THE FALLING WOMAN. Tor (Orb edition); ISBN: 0312854064, $11.95, 287 pages (© 1986). Park, Severna: THE ANNUNCIATE. Eos; ISBN: 0380805022, $6.99, 294 pages (© 1999). Piercy, Marge: WOMAN ON THE EDGE OF TIME. Fawcett Crest; ISBN: 0449210820, $6.99, 381 pages (© 1976). Smith, Deborah: ALICE AT HEART. Belle Books; ISBN: 0967303524, $14.95, 320 pages (© 2000). Tepper, Sheri S: THE GATE TO WOMEN'S COUNTRY. Spectra; ISBN: 0553280643, $6.99, 315 pages (© 1988). Wren, M.K.: A GIFT UPON THE SHORE. Lightning Source; ISBN: 0595143415, $19.95, 388 pages (© 1990). As always, more information is available at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/bdg_nom_0201.htm Thanks for a great series of nominations! Now let's vote! -- Janice, for the BDG volunteers