Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0202A" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 01:11:39 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Linda Novak Subject: Re: BDG Progress Report #3 Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_18f.2b4e179.298b8b9b_boundary" --part1_18f.2b4e179.298b8b9b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My votes are: 1) > Tepper, Sheri S: THE GATE TO WOMEN'S COUNTRY. > Spectra; ISBN: 0553280643, $6.99, 315 pages (=A9 1988). >=20 > 2) Wren, M.K.: A GIFT UPON THE SHORE. Lightning Source; > ISBN: 0595143415, $19.95, 388 pages (=A9 1990). >=20 3) Elgin, Suzette Haden: NATIVE TONGUE. Feminist Press; ISBN: 1558612467, $14.95, 320 pages (=A9 1984). Thanks!! --Linda --part1_18f.2b4e179.298b8b9b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My votes are:

1)

Tepper, Sheri S= : THE GATE TO WOMEN'S COUNTRY.
Spectra; ISBN: 0553280643, $6.99, 315 pages (=A9 1988).

2) Wren, M.K.: A GIFT UPON THE SHORE. Lightning Source;
ISBN: 0595143415, $19.95, 388 pages (=A9 1990).

3) Elgin, Suzette Haden: NATIVE TONGUE. Feminist Press;
ISBN: 1558612467, $14.95, 320 pages (=A9 1984).

Thanks!! --Linda

--part1_18f.2b4e179.298b8b9b_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:18:28 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: BDG Progress Report #3 Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200202010514.XAA58508@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit this was *raelly* hard- this is the best lot of choices I have seen in *ages*.. sigh... I hope that those people whose choices dont get picked will renominate next round. Umm. . Elgin, Suzette Haden: NATIVE TONGUE. Feminist Press; > ISBN: 1558612467, $14.95, 320 pages (© 1984). > > Piercy, Marge: WOMAN ON THE EDGE OF TIME. Fawcett Crest; > ISBN: 0449210820, $6.99, 381 pages (© 1976). Park, Severna: THE ANNUNCIATE. Eos; > ISBN: 0380805022, $6.99, 294 pages (© 1999). Tepper, Sheri S: THE GATE TO WOMEN'S COUNTRY. > Spectra; ISBN: 0553280643, $6.99, 315 pages (© 1988) I'm afraid I just cant rank them in much of an order- I guess this will have to do. I put the Tepper last cause we read Singer not long back, Native Tongue cause it had a big impact on me as a teenager, Annunciate cause I loved Hand of Prophecy and its a new-ish/fairly obscure author, the Piercy because, like a ll the others, I have them, want to read them, and think this is the best forum I could read them in possible. Maire Hard SF- Feb BOTM "A Fire Upon the Deep" by Vernor Vinge http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hardsf Original Fantasy- Feb BOTM "Perdido St Station" by China Meiville http://groups.yahoo.com/group/original_fantasy Soft SF- Feb BOTM "A Case of Conscience" by James Blish http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soft_sf > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Janice E. Dawley > Sent: Friday, 1 February 2002 4:07 PM > To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Progress Report #3 > > > It's past midnight in snowy Vermont, so I thought I would post the final > list and a couple of comments before voting. > > First off, as of 12:00 AM EST (Eastern Standard Time), you can send your > BDG ballots to Terri Wakefield at terrierg@MAINE.RR.COM > > When voting, please choose FOUR books from the list of nominations, RANKED > IN ORDER OF PREFERENCE, so that close contenders may be more easily > distinguished from one another. > > And just to make sure everyone knows, one of the nominees, *Gumshoe > Gorilla*, is the second book in a series. That has been important > to people > in the past, so I thought I would note it for any who weren't aware of it. > The previous book, "The Gumshoe, the Witch, and the Virtual Corpse" was a > selection in Sept. 2001. > > As of now, the nominees (a total of 12) are as follows: > > > Gloss, Molly: WILD LIFE. Houghton Mifflin; > ISBN: 0618131574, $13.00, 255 pages (© 2000). > > Hartman, Keith: GUMSHOE GORILLA. Meisha Merlin; > ISBN: 189206524X, $16.00, 400 pages (© 2001). > > Jakober, Marie: THE BLACK CHALICE. Ace Books; > ISBN: 0441008968, $15.00, 480 pages (© 2000). > > Kerr, Peg: THE WILD SWANS. Aspect; > ISBN: 0446608475, $6.99, 450 pages (© 1999). > > Le Guin, Ursula K: THE DISPOSSESSED. Harper; > ISBN: 0061054887, $7.99, 400 pages (© 1974). > > Murphy, Pat: THE FALLING WOMAN. Tor (Orb edition); > ISBN: 0312854064, $11.95, 287 pages (© 1986). > > Smith, Deborah: ALICE AT HEART. Belle Books; > ISBN: 0967303524, $14.95, 320 pages (© 2000). > > > Wren, M.K.: A GIFT UPON THE SHORE. Lightning Source; > ISBN: 0595143415, $19.95, 388 pages (© 1990). > > As always, more information is available at > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/bdg_nom_0201.htm > > Thanks for a great series of nominations! Now let's vote! > > -- Janice, for the BDG volunteers ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:28:33 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lou Hoffman Subject: Re: BDG Progress Report #3 Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_130.89f9778.298c0e21_boundary" --part1_130.89f9778.298c0e21_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lots of good choices, it was hard to choose 4, let alone put them in order! My votes: 1) Le Guin, Ursula K: THE DISPOSSESSED. 2) Gloss, Molly: WILD LIFE. 3) Elgin, Suzette Haden: NATIVE TONGUE. 4) Kerr, Peg: THE WILD SWANS --part1_130.89f9778.298c0e21_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lots of good choices, it was hard to choose 4, let alone put them in order!

My votes:
1) Le Guin, Ursula K: THE DISPOSSESSED.

2) Gloss, Molly: WILD LIFE.

3) Elgin, Suzette Haden: NATIVE TONGUE.

4) Kerr, Peg: THE WILD SWANS
--part1_130.89f9778.298c0e21_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:29:28 -0600 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Nell Clowder Subject: Re: BDG Progress Report #3 Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <200202010514.XAA58508@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1. Le Guin, Ursula K: THE DISPOSSESSED. Harper; Because I love Le Guin 2. Gloss, Molly: WILD LIFE. Houghton Mifflin; Because I remember reading a wonderful short story by her years ago, and I'd like to read more of her stuff. 3. Murphy, Pat: THE FALLING WOMAN. Tor (Orb edition); This book is a "keeper" on my bookshelf. 4. Park, Severna: THE ANNUNCIATE. Eos; I like the themes Park works with. I wonder what she'll tackle in this book. Nell Clowder (Possibly I'm getting back to the list after a long hiatus - depends on how long I'm "unemployed.") ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:20:49 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maire Subject: Re: BDG Progress Report #3 Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Err.. Nell and Lou and everyone else! I have already been kindly instructed on this- I made the same mistake- apparently we shouldnt be sending votes to the list, but to Terry's addie terrierg@maine.rr.com Anyway, its interesting to see what we all voted for! Maire Hard SF- Feb BOTM "A Fire Upon the Deep" by Vernor Vinge http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hardsf Original Fantasy- Feb BOTM "Perdido St Station" by China Meiville http://groups.yahoo.com/group/original_fantasy Soft SF- Feb BOTM "A Case of Conscience" by James Blish http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soft_sf > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Nell Clowder > Sent: Saturday, 2 February 2002 4:29 AM > To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Progress Report #3 > > > 1. Le Guin, Ursula K: THE DISPOSSESSED. Harper; > Because I love Le Guin > > 2. Gloss, Molly: WILD LIFE. Houghton Mifflin; > Because I remember reading a wonderful short story by her years > ago, and I'd > like to read more of her stuff. > > 3. Murphy, Pat: THE FALLING WOMAN. Tor (Orb edition); > This book is a "keeper" on my bookshelf. > > 4. Park, Severna: THE ANNUNCIATE. Eos; > I like the themes Park works with. I wonder what she'll tackle in this > book. > > Nell Clowder > (Possibly I'm getting back to the list after a long hiatus - > depends on how > long I'm "unemployed.") ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:57:47 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Terri Wakefield Subject: Re: BDG Progress Report #3 Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Folks Just to clarify the voting procedure............ Please send your votes for your FOUR (4) choices, in order, for the next BDG group read to me at...... not to the list!! You should receive a reply from me within 24 hours that I have received your votes. If you do not receive a confirmation from me, please let me know. We don't want anyone's votes to be lost in cyber space! :o) The voting period is from now until midnight, Feb. 9th, EST The winners will be announced by Tues. Feb. 12th. Everyone please vote. Last selection period was so close it wasn't apparent until the very last moment which nominations were the winners! >From snowy and icy Maine Terri Wakefield As of now, the nominees (a total of 12) are as follows: Elgin, Suzette Haden: NATIVE TONGUE. Feminist Press; ISBN: 1558612467, $14.95, 320 pages (© 1984). Gloss, Molly: WILD LIFE. Houghton Mifflin; ISBN: 0618131574, $13.00, 255 pages (© 2000). Hartman, Keith: GUMSHOE GORILLA. Meisha Merlin; ISBN: 189206524X, $16.00, 400 pages (© 2001). Jakober, Marie: THE BLACK CHALICE. Ace Books; ISBN: 0441008968, $15.00, 480 pages (© 2000). Kerr, Peg: THE WILD SWANS. Aspect; ISBN: 0446608475, $6.99, 450 pages (© 1999). Le Guin, Ursula K: THE DISPOSSESSED. Harper; ISBN: 0061054887, $7.99, 400 pages (© 1974). Murphy, Pat: THE FALLING WOMAN. Tor (Orb edition); ISBN: 0312854064, $11.95, 287 pages (© 1986). Park, Severna: THE ANNUNCIATE. Eos; ISBN: 0380805022, $6.99, 294 pages (© 1999). Piercy, Marge: WOMAN ON THE EDGE OF TIME. Fawcett Crest; ISBN: 0449210820, $6.99, 381 pages (© 1976). Smith, Deborah: ALICE AT HEART. Belle Books; ISBN: 0967303524, $14.95, 320 pages (© 2000). Tepper, Sheri S: THE GATE TO WOMEN'S COUNTRY. Spectra; ISBN: 0553280643, $6.99, 315 pages (© 1988). Wren, M.K.: A GIFT UPON THE SHORE. Lightning Source; ISBN: 0595143415, $19.95, 388 pages (© 1990). As always, more information is available at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/bdg_nom_0201.htm Thanks for a great series of nominations! Now let's vote! -- Janice, for the BDG volunteers ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:48:30 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Terri Wakefield Subject: Re: BDG Progress Report #3 Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Maire I have received your votes. I hope your upcoming move goes well. :o) Thanks! Terri > From: "Maire" > Reply-To: "Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC" > > Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:00:37 +1100 > To: "Terrierg@Maine. Rr. Com" > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Progress Report #3 > > this was *raelly* hard- this is the best lot of choices I have seen in > *ages*.. sigh... I hope that those people whose choices dont get picked will > renominate next round. > > Umm. > . > > Elgin, Suzette Haden: NATIVE TONGUE. Feminist Press; >> ISBN: 1558612467, $14.95, 320 pages (© 1984). > >> >> Piercy, Marge: WOMAN ON THE EDGE OF TIME. Fawcett Crest; >> ISBN: 0449210820, $6.99, 381 pages (© 1976). > > Park, Severna: THE ANNUNCIATE. Eos; >> ISBN: 0380805022, $6.99, 294 pages (© 1999). > > Tepper, Sheri S: THE GATE TO WOMEN'S COUNTRY. >> Spectra; ISBN: 0553280643, $6.99, 315 pages (© 1988) > > I'm afraid I just cant rank them in much of an order- I guess this will have > to do. I put the Tepper last cause we read Singer not long back, Native > Tongue cause it had a big impact on me as a teenager, Annunciate cause I > loved Hand of Prophecy and its a new-ish/fairly obscure author, the Piercy > because, like a ll the others, I have them, want to read them, and think > this is the best forum I could read them in possible. > Maire > > Hard SF- Feb BOTM "A Fire Upon the Deep" by Vernor Vinge > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hardsf > > Original Fantasy- Feb BOTM "Perdido St Station" by China Meiville > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/original_fantasy > > Soft SF- Feb BOTM "A Case of Conscience" by James Blish > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soft_sf > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC >> [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Janice E. Dawley >> Sent: Friday, 1 February 2002 4:07 PM >> To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU >> Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Progress Report #3 >> >> >> It's past midnight in snowy Vermont, so I thought I would post the final >> list and a couple of comments before voting. >> >> First off, as of 12:00 AM EST (Eastern Standard Time), you can send your >> BDG ballots to Terri Wakefield at terrierg@MAINE.RR.COM >> >> When voting, please choose FOUR books from the list of nominations, RANKED >> IN ORDER OF PREFERENCE, so that close contenders may be more easily >> distinguished from one another. >> >> And just to make sure everyone knows, one of the nominees, *Gumshoe >> Gorilla*, is the second book in a series. That has been important >> to people >> in the past, so I thought I would note it for any who weren't aware of it. >> The previous book, "The Gumshoe, the Witch, and the Virtual Corpse" was a >> selection in Sept. 2001. >> >> As of now, the nominees (a total of 12) are as follows: >> > >> >> Gloss, Molly: WILD LIFE. Houghton Mifflin; >> ISBN: 0618131574, $13.00, 255 pages (© 2000). >> >> Hartman, Keith: GUMSHOE GORILLA. Meisha Merlin; >> ISBN: 189206524X, $16.00, 400 pages (© 2001). >> >> Jakober, Marie: THE BLACK CHALICE. Ace Books; >> ISBN: 0441008968, $15.00, 480 pages (© 2000). >> >> Kerr, Peg: THE WILD SWANS. Aspect; >> ISBN: 0446608475, $6.99, 450 pages (© 1999). >> >> Le Guin, Ursula K: THE DISPOSSESSED. Harper; >> ISBN: 0061054887, $7.99, 400 pages (© 1974). >> >> Murphy, Pat: THE FALLING WOMAN. Tor (Orb edition); >> ISBN: 0312854064, $11.95, 287 pages (© 1986). >> > > >> Smith, Deborah: ALICE AT HEART. Belle Books; >> ISBN: 0967303524, $14.95, 320 pages (© 2000). >> > >> >> Wren, M.K.: A GIFT UPON THE SHORE. Lightning Source; >> ISBN: 0595143415, $19.95, 388 pages (© 1990). >> >> As always, more information is available at >> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/bdg_nom_0201.htm >> >> Thanks for a great series of nominations! Now let's vote! >> >> -- Janice, for the BDG volunteers > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 15:19:20 +0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Angela Barclay Subject: Illicit Passage Kick-off Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear BDG Members: While tomorrow is the day discussion of Alice Nunn's _Illicit Passage_ is to officially begin, I thought I'd do the kick-off today since the list is quiet and not everyone may be glued to their sets watching the Super Bowl ;-) I would liken this work to a complex puzzle which Nunn subtlely allows the reader to piece together instead of hurling the pieces at them. In this regard it reminds me of Candace Jane Dorsey's _Black Wine_. Feel free to join the discussion by commenting on any aspects of the novel. Below are some of the questions I also hope to see answered over the next month: ********************** Now that you're finished reading it, what part in or characteristic of the novel is most vivid and/or enjoyable? What other literary or media texts does it remind you of and how? If you could change the work in any way what would that be? Describe and comment upon the narrative structure. Is there a difference between narrators and characters in this story? For example, how do DeeDee and other members of "the coffee set" contribute to the story? Annie, the primary narrator, is the antithesis of and antagonistic towards her sister. Do you think this was an effective storytelling device? Why or why not? Describe Gillie. What do you like about her? Is there anything you don't like about her? What do you think about her relationships with others? Does she have any real relationships? What comments does Nunn make about consumerism . . . family . . . marriage . . . womens' technical abilities . . .? How does the war which takes place throughout most of _Illicit Passage_ parrallel the wars in our history books? How does it differ? What elements of _Illicit Passage_ do you think led to its being shortlisted for the 1994 Tiptree Award? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:56:29 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Re: Illicit Passage Kick-off Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > ********** > > >>Now that you're finished reading it, what part in or characteristic of the > novel is most vivid and/or enjoyable?<< > I'll tell you what was NOT enjoyable: The lack of a straightforward narrative. I heartily dislike things which purport to be documents . I had a very difficult time figuring out what was going on from the jumping back and forth between viewpoints. Easiest to follow was Gillie's whinging little sister--once I did figure out that you had to sift everything she said for personal self-interest. Hardest to follow were the "government" reports and memos. I very nearly gave up on the book. > > > > Annie, the primary narrator, is the antithesis of and antagonistic towards > her sister. Do you think this was an effective storytelling device? Why or > why not? It was, but for the first fifty pages I didn't get it. I didn't understand that Annette spoke out of both sides of her mouth, one minute claiming to have had nothing to do with the events that happened, the next minute claiming to be an innocent dupe on whose head landed all the evils Gillie perpetrated, the next moment claiming to have had just as much of a major role in the events as anyone, but to be the only one who reaped none of the rewards. > > > Describe Gillie. What do you like about her? Is there anything you don't > like about her? What do you think about her relationships with others? > Does she have any real relationships? She reminds me a lot of my roommate, who is an improvisational actress, whose favorite form of music is jazz, and who wants a garden of fresh herbs and tomatoes, yet is completely unwilling to spend the time watering them or doing anything to make sure they actually come up after she plants them. Life in the moment is much more important to her than any future planning or respect for and understanding of the past. At the same time, she IS very smart and talented and gifted. I liked reading about Gillie, but she wouldn't be easy or comfortable to have as a friend. --s > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:38:35 -0500 Reply-To: daohuis@wmis.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Deborah Oosterhouse Organization: Editorial Services Subject: Re: Illicit Passage Kick-off Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angela Barclay wrote: > Now that you're finished reading it, what part in or characteristic of the > novel is most vivid and/or enjoyable? What became most vivid and interesting to me as I read was that Gillie's voice was never heard -- there are no direct statements from Gillie herself, only her story filtered through her sister, the govenment agencies that were opposing her, etc. And even the government people don't have any interviews with her, only with people who were associated with her. I think it rather serves to turn Gillie into a mythical sort of figure instead of a real person, although her sister's very negative view of her does help to locate the real Gillie somewhere in the realm of humanity. > If you could change the work in any way what would that be? Although I would dearly love to hear from Gillie -- to have something that she wrote or recorded to explain what she did and how and why, some great manifesto or something -- I don't think I would change the story to include it. Somehow it just wouldn't fit in with the picture of Gillie that is created. She doesn't align herself with the overtly revolutionary characters in the book. She is more interested in personal comforts and having fun and spreading the results of her abilities around a bit than any concerted effort against the government. It seems to me as if she doesn't think it's necessary -- just let them do (or try) whatever they want, I can get around it anyway. > Describe Gillie. What do you like about her? Is there anything you don't > like about her? What do you think about her relationships with others? > Does she have any real relationships? It's very difficult for me to decide what I do or don't like about Gillie, because all I'm getting is other people's opinions of her. I very much like her, probably because her sister is so irritating and obviously doesn't like Gillie much. On the other hand, she does seem to have something of a selfish streak in not wanting to use the abilities that she has to help everyone out and make their lives better. But it could simply be a limit to a skill that seems limitless to some of the narrators. I think that's enough for the time being. I very much enjoyed reading this story and am looking forward to other people's comments. Deborah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 14:38:12 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Susan Hericks Subject: Sale Books Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In looking around for a lower price on _A Gift Upon the Shore_, (A nomination for the BDG) I found it on sale for $12 (new!) at Powells.com for any who are interested. http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=16-014013087x-0 Also, I noticed Sargent's anthology _Women of Wonder: The Contemporary years_ for a super deal ($4.98!)at Daedalus books. Scoop it up!! http://www.daedalus-books.com/ Susan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:23:49 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Linda Novak Subject: Re: Sale Books Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Susan, for the great low-price book leads. I've been having good luck lately ordering from www.half.com. I found a hard copy of A Gift Upon the Shore for under $10 including fast shipping! Wow! I'm ready to read. --Linda ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:54:10 +0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Angela Barclay Subject: Re: Illicit Passage Kick-off Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sharon wrote: > I'll tell you what was NOT enjoyable: The lack of a straightforward >narrative. I heartily dislike things which purport to be documents . I had a >very difficult time figuring out what was going on from the jumping back and >forth between viewpoints. Easiest to follow was Gillie's whinging little >sister--once I did figure out that you had to sift everything she said for >personal self-interest. Hardest to follow were the "government" reports and >memos . . . for the first fifty pages I didn't get it. I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who had some trouble figuring out what was going on. Initially I was annoyed by the 'interruption' in the narrative with all of the documents and interrogations and wanted to race ahead to find out what naughty Gillie and her gang were up to. I also took me a while to figure out that Gillie, who was being slandered her sister/the narrator, was the 'good guy.' Once I got used to Nunn's different approach, however, I grew to like it. I think it took a lot of guts and ingenuity to write a book this way. I like that both her protagonist and primary narrator were flawed. I also appreciated that she trusted the reader would figure out this complex mystery. One thing I didn't like, however, was the number of government officials and minor characters. It was hard to keep track of them, especially since their names seemed familiar. Angela ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 00:04:42 +1100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Illicit Passage Kick-off Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <20020205014517.FJWQ20752.priv-edtnes10-hme0.telusplanet.ne t@[161.184.50.151]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Some of my thoughts on Illicit Passage: Firstly - it is a novel with a strong Australian 'flavour' in that it follows the Australian literary tradition in theme, style and characterisation. The humour is mostly satirical, or 'black' comedy with exaggerated characterisation - along with the popular Oz thematic tradition of total irreverance for authority of any kind, a tradition shared by much of British (and particularly Irish) literature. Much of the language used is urban working-class patter - and its possible for American readers that some of the jokes and satirical swipes aren't readily obvious. Oz traditional literary heroes are nearly always "flawed characters" and 'thumb their noses' at the law, the church, the government and anybody else who sets themselves up in a position of authority. Oz heroes are most often presented as rogues, working-class rebels - somewhat shady characters, or anti-heroes with more personal self-interest than grand visionaries on a mission to save the world from itself. In this respect, Gillie fits the stereotype, except that she is a woman. One 'thread' of the satire of authority figures in Illicit Passage is the bumbling & mildly corrupt government & police officialdom, imitating the semi-formal style of interoffice e-mail memos. Some aspects of this are reminiscent of the movie " 9 to 5 " - with the incompetent men nominally in charge, but the barely acknowledged office "girls" doing all the work behind the scenes. Through a series of vignettes and snatches of electronic dialogue - men's relationships within patriarchal heirarchies are also highlighted in a comic manner. When they finally realise there is a sabotage within, its telling that they don't suspect any of the women, let alone Gillie. One thing I also enjoyed about the writing of some of the passages in 'officialese' - is they are boring and hard to follow - but that is part of the satire of officialdom, along with the disorganised "files" of the individual sections of the narrative jumping around - it reads like a badly organised file - Also reflecting the social structure of the class-based society in the space-domes. The people both at work and home, are all organised on a similar bureaucratic and disorganised 'filing system' of colour-codes and status numbering and class-coding and so on, deciding where you lived, where you worked, what you wore, what you ate etc.... Gillie is an anarchist, she doesn't like rules, especially when they are silly. Full of energy Gillie stands strong, having no time or energy to waste on fools, small-talk or polite acquiescence in the face of controlling authority or drunken men invading her personal space in bars - and laughing at the world along the way. Annie, on the other hand is a rigid rule-follower, and dislikes Gillie not just for *not* following rules, but for getting away with it. Like religion being the "opiate of the masses" - in Illicit Passage, in this society - following all the rules, doing as you're told, sucking up obsequiously to authority etc, will lead to rewards - religion has been replaced by the "work ethic". At one point, their mother mentions to Annie how she used to believe all the lies about getting educated and you'll do well in life - but in later life she realised this was a lie, and berates Annie for "believing everything the government tells you" One of Annies gripes, is how she does all the right things, but is still stuck at a low level in her job, while Gillie and friends break rules, and get ahead. Also, Annie is talking primarily to authority figures in her testimony. True to character of a rigid rule-follower, she allies herself slavishly to authority, (predominantly male) telling them what she thinks they want to hear, and distances herself from Gillie. The satire extends to the depiction of the leftist revolutionaries - with their own version of slavishly following rules of conduct according to theories and Marxist political ideologies. They have meetings, and then some more meetings etc - and can never decide on taking action because the "conditions aren't right for a revolution yet"..or awaiting some opportunistic event or timing, or a charismatic leader who can unite the working-class masses to overthrow the system - from one of Annie's diary-like interview entries: " Leanne was whipping everyone into a rage against the war, she was telling them that they had nothing to gain by it and it was just a private game between two rich colonisers, 'Pull down the edifice, cut off the capitalists supply, rise up and secure your own destiny!' All that sort of stuff." And later in the same section: ".."Revolutionaries have no grasp on reality"..laughed Gillie. Because Leanne wouldn't move until she could carry people with her by the strength of their belief.....She would have it that you had to have people's hearts and minds with you before you started a revolution. 'Or else', she said, 'how can you plot its course and bring it safely into land with some workable future shape'.... And from Leanne: " She didn't want to change the world in the way I wanted to change the world. She was more interested in attitudes, she wasn't really a political animal...the censored books to me explained it all, ...but Gillie just groaned and said she shouldn't have given the books to me because now I'd gone all radical and stopped thinking for myself"......She reckoned we should make up our own theory as we went along.... There is so much in this book that impacted on me - such a collage, I find it difficult to separate out what impacted most. I can open it up on almost on any page - and find something that smacks me on the head - several pages are dog-eared and passages underlined. On the feminist side, men also come in for mockery, and the gender role-reversals on prostitution was hilarious! In some respects despite the war being the main backdrop and the justification for the harsh living standards the oppressed live under, the men & their war are pasted well into the background - and the women's lives & relationships are the foreground, the need to improve clothing, housing, food supplies etc - this is the stuff of women's lives, Gillie isn't concerned about the war and its ideology unlike her friends, she lives the life of " Deeds. Not Words." She needs a coat, she gets one somehow - her companeros, those she likes - get coats too. Annie as the cheer-leader of the male-dominant status quo whines towards the end: " I was sick of a world of women, I wanted the world to be normal again.......I wanted the men to come back and make sense of it and lead us out of the cave of emotion and show us the way...." >>>What other literary or media texts does it remind you of and how? It reminds me of Fay Weldon's works in the comic exaggeration of character, although Weldon's style is a much more extreme form of *black* humour, and not to everyone's taste. Enough for now - Cheers - - Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:13:34 +0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Angela Barclay Subject: Re: Illicit Passage Kick-off Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >Oz traditional literary heroes are nearly always "flawed characters" and >'thumb their noses' at the law, the church, the government and anybody else >who sets themselves up in a position of authority. Oz heroes are most >often presented as rogues, working-class rebels - somewhat shady >characters, or anti-heroes with more personal self-interest than grand >visionaries on a mission to save the world from itself. In this respect, >Gillie fits the stereotype, except that she is a woman. It is helpful to learn that it is common for Austrialian protagonists to have glaring flaws. Am I correct in assuming this is not common in the North American literary tradition? For example, I remember reading something by Stephen Donaldson (sp?) years and years ago in which the protagonist was a leper and a rapist. I found that seeing the plot through his eyes was quite disconcerting. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:52:49 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Susan Hericks Subject: Re: Illicit Passage Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Q: Now that you're finished reading it, what part in or characteristic of the novel is most vivid and/or enjoyable? What I liked best about this book was that it allowed for different kinds of activism, without making one better than the other, and pointing out the flaws of all. I loved that Gille and Leeane were contantly arguing about what should be done and how to do it, but that they remained close friends. I also loved the joy that Gille brought to her mischief and how that infused all her friendships. Her love for life was her only motivation, and it got her alot further (arguably) that Leeanne's soapboxing. The way she inspired Bruno to live was touching, though subtly brought out. I loved the sex scene with the chocolate dildos and crotchless panties!! all that sneaking about, I thought it would be some huge political maneuver, but no! In the end, it seems like Gillie's relish for life it what is missed most by her friends. Perhaps it was the glue that help potential factions together, but after her death, Leeane and the others cannot agree and Leeane takes another route. I like that her "compromise" may also be a realistic way to continue her activism in new circumstances, even though it may look like a sell-out to others. In the same vein, I was pleased and a little surprised by the developments in Mrs. St. John-Sightly's life after the war. The fact that her daughter and her housecleaner's son are both killed/murdered at the mines changes her and produces a visibly changed relationship between a spid and a nowt. Q: What other literary or media texts does it remind you of and how? At first, it sort of reminded me of Stanislaw Lem. Maybe it was all the bureaucracy. Q:If you could change the work in any way what would that be? I got somewhat bored with the denoument after the war ends. I actually started skipping, particularly the long section on the interviews of the council members and the conjectures on who was the mole. Perhaps as a result, I never figured out who it was. Does it ever say? The thing that finally really bugged me was Annie. I can't see any real REASON for her to be as conformist as she is. That would not be so bad by itself, but I couldn't really belief her lack of feeling for her family and community. During the big riot scene her mother and aunties are at risk of being shot and all she thinks of is how she hopes SHE will not be shot, or even noticed. When, after Gillie gives her the assignment to go get Bruno out of the bar, Annie complains that she does it "As if I didn't have feelings or emotions or a will of my own (243). What a laugh!! She clearly didn't. Which is what I finally found unbelievable. I wanted more moments like when she gets enraged and then passes out because they haven't saved her tea. Is it that she is an adolescent/teen and no one gives her any attention? Is conformity the only kind of rebellion she can come up with, given Gillie's outrageous behavior? I was tearing out my hair about her belief in the "disease" at the mine. I guess I wanted her to finally open her eyes in some way and recognize the horror of the system that was grinding up the nowts for profit. The stuff about the mine really got to me, especially the revelation that everyone there would be dead within six months and the spids were planning to send the women in next. That whole plan to rid the planet of the nowts was pretty horrifying, and yet it seemed to lose momentum/impact (in terms of the story)as conditions "improved." So what if the new dome ended up being for the nowts? There would still be the spids and the nowts and the mine. Finally, I thought it a bit wierd that Nunn could paint the classism of this culture so well and yet race was a non-issue. Q:Describe and comment upon the narrative structure. Is there a difference between narrators and characters in this story? For example, how do DeeDee and other members of "the coffee set" contribute to the story? Until the end, as mentioned above, it worked for me. I was sort of excited when I finally realized who Bruno was and that, all along, the reports had been titled "G. Seaton/B. Lawrence" I liked the memos, especially because it showed that some of the spids were cogs as well, and that some of them really wanted to do the right thing (E.g when the guy ends up tipping over the whole streetful of houses!) Q: Describe Gillie. What do you like about her? Is there anything you don't like about her? I like her exhuberance. I like that she is not beautiful in Annie's eyes, but that I could see her vitality and the way she attracted people to her with that. I thought the story about the aunt who suddenly dies, after spending the night in the valley with Gillie, was touching. IT was perfect how Annie says, in that section, that the women in her family were irresponsible (is that the right word?) because they would dance or sing whenever they felt like it. That made me love those women. I was going to say that I wish Gillie had been a little more focused on making effective changes, but it seems like she WAS incredibly effective, so it's hard to fault her. Q: What do you think about Gillie's relationships with others? Does she have any real relationships? I think she probably does have vital relationships with others, but that we don't see much of that because of the way Annie narrates and casts everything so negatively. I'm going to stop here with one question: Did anyone else think it was possible that Gillie knew about the plan to kill her and figured out a way to escape ? With the missing Bruno? Or is that just not her style? Or did I miss something conclusive as I was skipping around at the end? Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:28:58 +0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Angela Barclay Subject: Re: Illicit Passage Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >I'm going to stop here with one question: Did anyone else think it was >possible that Gillie knew about the plan to kill her and figured out a way >to escape ? With the missing Bruno? Or is that just not her style? Or did I >miss something conclusive as I was skipping around at the end? > >Susan Susan, I'm glad you asked these questions. They lead me to many more which I have about the plot: What I want to know is what are the respective fates of Gillie and Bruno. In the last fifth of the book we learn about the truth serum used by the goverment officials. (See pp. 203-205.) We learn that if Paloramine is taken over a long period of time the 'target's' memory becomes increasingly unreliable. Isn't this what happened to Leanne? If so, did Gillie administer the drug to Leanne, or did Leanne take it for its euphoric properties? We also learn that the drug can make people timid. Isn't this the case with Annie, who hides behind her family at rallies? If Annie has been altered or brainwashed, is it her sister who is responsible or is it the food she is fed at school? On page 204 we also read that "if taken for more thabn a month the target may suffer irretrievable personality damage." Is there anyone in the book who fits this description? At one point we read that Gillie is especially bright eyed- sorry can't find the exact passage- does this mean she is deliberately taking the 'countermeasure,' Paramenothone, which guards undercover agents from giving themselves away (p. 217)? If this is the case is she a true revolutionary and not just out for a good time? We learn on p. 217 that if someone were to be taking the countermeasure and then given the substance, Aronathal, which flushes it out, they would only survive for 3 - 15 days. Is this what makes Gillie reckless in her last days? I wonder if both Bruno and Gillie were given Aronathal. Its side effects include liver damage, stomach lesions, blood clots and possible bone marrow damage- is that why Bruno was so pale and lethargic at the end? Did Gillie actually manage to meet Bruno at the Bomb site, like she said she would or did she die in the explosion? If it wasn't her who was it?! I personally think that she and Bruno, with the help of her computer friends, managed an "illict passage" off of that "God forsaken lump of rock," and further were "some other couple" who had been 'given' the tickets of DeeDee's friends (p. 236). So tell me, am I reading way too much into this or what? Is the reader supposed to know the fates of Gillie, Leanne and Bruno at the end of the novel or are we supposed to be left wondering? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:36:37 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Re: Illicit Passage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angela Barclay wrote: I personally think that she and Bruno, with the help of her computer friends, managed an "illicit passage" off of that "God forsaken lump of rock," and further were "some other couple" who had been 'given' the tickets of DeeDee's friends (p. 236). Thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one who wondered about this. --s ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:31:48 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lou Hoffman Subject: Re: Illicit Passage Kick-off Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_17.22d4e94e.29934f24_boundary" --part1_17.22d4e94e.29934f24_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/5/02 8:05:04 PM Central Standard Time, barclaya@TELUSPLANET.NET writes: > For example, I remember reading > something by Stephen Donaldson (sp?) years and years ago in which the > protagonist was a leper and a rapist. I found that seeing the plot through > his eyes was quite disconcerting. > The Illearth series. Disconcerting is putting it mildly..... Lou Humankind: be both. --part1_17.22d4e94e.29934f24_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/5/02 8:05:04 PM Central Standard Time, barclaya@TELUSPLANET.NET writes:

For example, I remember reading
something by Stephen Donaldson (sp?) years and years ago in which the
protagonist was a leper and a rapist. I found that seeing the plot through
his eyes was quite disconcerting.

The Illearth series. Disconcerting is putting it mildly.....

Lou
Humankind: be both. --part1_17.22d4e94e.29934f24_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 21:13:43 -0500 Reply-To: Amy Harlib Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Amy Harlib Subject: New E-mail address Comments: To: Eliza and Zoe , Mark Ziesing , Zara@zip.com.au, ysabet@worthlink.net, Yowie , Suan Yong , ybd78@dial.pipex.com, yahoo-dev-null@yahoo-inc.com, xc_update@hotmail.com, Kristine Wright , WPaulg@aol.com, wordofmouth-request@mail-list.com, Nick Woolsey , "WomensFantasyScifi-owner@egroups.com" , WomensFantasySciFi@yahoogroups.com, WomensFantasySciFi@egroups.com, wobh@yahoo.com, "Winters, Colleen" , Colleen Winters , WindWriter , philip g williamson , Philip Williamson , Liz Williams , Claire Williams , Wiley20658@aol.com, Jennifer Wiley , Defenders of Wildlife , widera@UNR.EDU, Steven White , Peter West , Angela West , J Wermont , Martha Wells , Larry Weisenbach , webmaster@sflare.com, Connection Web , Angela Weaser , Cecil Washington , Ellie Warder , Michael Ward , JeanMarie Ward , Jean Marie Ward , "Warburton, Ruth" , Sean Wallace , Debra S Walker , Dangerous Visions , Irene de Villiers , Tony Villecco , VickiCP@aol.com, ListBot Verifier , Joan M Verba , Hans van der Veeke , veejay@csolve.net, vanderworld@egroups.com, VanderMeerJ@infinity-software.com, Ita B Vandenbroek , Ita Vandenbroek , Christine Vandebuerie , Marsha Valance , Marsha Valance , Anonymous User , Xina Uhl , "Kenneth M. Uecker" , TVSABASS@aol.com, Rodger Turner , tributefarm@angelfire.com, Emily Tremain , Tracy , Jasmin Torres , Eliani Torres , Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC , Julianne Toomey-Kautz , Julianne Toomey-Kautz , Tom3703180@aol.com, TipWorld , TinaH53374@aol.com, timpowers@yahoogroups.com, timpowers@egroups.com, TimmOLaugh@aol.com, "P.D. TILLMAN" , Mike Thornton , Jeffrey Thomas , themuse@jvlnet.com, TheMewsletter@yahoogroups.com, thelist@streamseek.com, The_Mouse_Stalkers@yahoogroups.com, TessMeara@aol.com, terwin@home.com, Terri , teramis@teramis.com, Brad Templeton , Brad Templeton , Tati2072@aol.com, TanyaIrw@aol.com, "Paul T.Riddell" , John T , John T , Debbie Symonds , "McAfee.com Technical Support" , SunsFandfc@aol.com, Sunchasers2@worldnet.att.net, SubKrypton@aol.com, Yi-Ling Su , Tim Stretton , tim stretton , Tim Stretton , streaming@onelist.com, Astrid Straver , Ben Stickels , stevez@ripco.com, Steven , StarRidgeCats@aol.com, stanlipp@imailbox.com, The Blue Iris Journal Staffroom , "Stacy Wolf, ASPCA" , Larraine Stacey , Bettina Pelkmann SSL , sphinx , SpeculativeFiction@yahoogroups.com, SpeculativeFiction@onelist.com, SpeculativeFiction@egroups.com, David Soyka , SorchaM@aol.com, Bill Somrak , JT Web Solutions , soft_sf@yahoogroups.com, "John C. Snider" , "John C. Snider" , John Snider , "Snider, Chris" , smorris5@ix.netcom.com, Slmelf@aol.com, Tyra Slater , "Asta Sinusas (E-mail)" , "B. Sinor" , SinnerStar , Sarah Singleton , Preeti Singh , Preeti Singh , Nicola Sinclair , Walls Simone , SimeGen , simbouda@erols.com, Steven H Silver , Silver , Sigil , SigaLiris@aol.com, Larry Siegel , Si , Michael Shulver , Fara Shimbo , Jocelyn & Sheryl , Shelia , Mustaq Sheikh , Joe Shea , Sharon.Archer@wcom.com, Sharalsbooks@aol.com, shander@cdsnet.net, Shalanna , Chris Shaffer , ShadowRealms-owner@smartgroups.com, ShadowRealms@yahoogroups.com, shadowrealms@smartgroups.com, ShadowRealms@egroups.com, sgosden@camelot.netcom.net.uk, sgosden , sfuk-req-s662@egroups.com, sfuk@egroups.com, sffbooks@onelist.com, sffbooks@egroups.com, SFArcher7@aol.com, "Intranets.com Reminder Service" , "L-Soft list server at Sime~Gen Mail Server (1.8c)" , send@mail.efax.com, SectorGeneral@onelist.com, SDRBOOKS@prodigy.net, scifinow editor , SciFiNoir@yahoogroups.com, SciFiNoir@egroups.com, Scifinoir@aol.com, scifidimensions-owner@yahoogroups.com, SciFicBookClub@onelist.com, SciFi_Discussion@yahoogroups.com, SciFi_Discussion@onelist.com, SciFi_Discussion@egroups.com, Science_Fiction_Books@egroups.com, schwcoop , Julia Schneider , Schmitz_List , Barbara Schmerzler , "Sianny P. Schira" , "William K. Schafer" , William K Schafer , scarab_00 , "Steven Sawicki (E-mail)" , saskakhan@t-online.de, saskakhan , Mike Sargent , William Sanders , William Sanders , Judy Ruzich , Judy Ruzich , RuthWilli@aol.com, Runagate-Rampant@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Friend, This message is to let you know that my e-mail address is changing. On Fri., Feb. 8 it will be aharlib@earthlink.net . Please adjust your address books. Thank you very much! Keep in touch! Warm Regards, Amy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 08:03:37 +0000 Reply-To: Torreif Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Torreif Subject: Re: feminist sf and "liteature"? Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020129181506.01f42ad0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wednesday, January 30, 2002, 12:04:17 AM, Janice E. Dawley wrote: JED> Few? Dave explicitly asked if the question "How much feminist sf would JED> anyone put under the heading: Literature?" was or was not feminist. In my JED> response, I called the term "literature" political. I agree totally. Literature, as with art, is highly subjective, with some people only including dead white male authors in "literature" and others including every book written, no matter how trashy. The truth is somewhere between those extremes, but it's probably best to discuss the criteria rather than make hard and fast rules for what is included as "literature." For me, literature are those books which leave me thinking after the book is closed, which speak of truths of the human condition, and which gain rather than lose from being read a second time. -- Wildbird mailto:torreif@yahoo.co.uk "A dream is an answer to a question we haven't yet learned how to ask." Scully: XFiles Owner/Moderator of: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MoonShield_WingSisters http://groups.yahoo.com/group/magevale ICQ: 82980723 Authorization required OutVale Wizard for MageVale MUSH, an adult kink-friendly role play MUSH Telnet:MageVale.mudservices.com:3333 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:31:17 +0000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Angela Barclay Subject: Re: Illicit Passage Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >Angela: >I personally think that she and Bruno, with the help of her computer >friends, managed an "illicit passage" off of that "God forsaken lump of >rock," and further were "some other couple" who had been 'given' the >tickets >of DeeDee's friends (p. 236). >Sharon: Thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one who wondered about this. Angela: And yet at the same time, weren't they both dying?