Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0204A" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:50:20 +0200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Petra Mayerhofer Organization: http://freemail.web.de/ Subject: BDG The Dispossessed Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you all for waiting so patiently for my kick-off message. _The Dispossessed_ is a wonderful book. It's the second time I read it but I'm not finished yet. I remember how impressed I was the first time by the society of Anarres, this time it appears rather stiffling to me (e.g. although not in theory but in practice everybody has to be the same, mediocre). According to Paul Brian's study guide (http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/science_fiction/dispossessed.html) this is a rather common reaction: "To many of its earliest readers Anarres, however flawed, clearly presented a preferably ideal to contemporary American society. Its stress on sharing, on volunteerism, and on tolerance was highly attractive. To some contemporary readers, Anarres seems rather like a nightmare." How do you see this "ambiguous" utopia? Formerly and now? Is it a failure or not? Do you think the congealment (if I use the correct English expression here) can be avoided? Ursula Le Guin has often stressed that a novel has to be centered around a character, that the described society is not the important part, but the development of the character ("Mrs. Brown", I hope this paraphrase is more or less correct). She cited the first image she had of _The Left Hand of Darkness_ (two persons in a ice desert towing a sled) as example for this. Nonetheless, my experience is different, at least with _Left Hand_ and _Dispossessed_. What I mostly remember of these novels and what engaged me the most are the societies (or the differing gender biology). How do you experience this? What are the feminist aspects of the novel? How do you perceive Rulag? The green binding and the stamp of the circle of books are described again and again. Why? Best wishes, Petra ______________________________________________________________________________ Sichern Sie sich Ihre Chancen auf den Jackpot: Mit dem WEB.DE Lottoservice bequem und sicher tippen: http://tippen2.web.de/?x=11 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:21:41 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rachel Wild Subject: BDG The disposessed Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_b2.95c647e.29de2bf5_boundary" --part1_b2.95c647e.29de2bf5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK just a [fairly] short one to begin... I have just begun the dispossessed after reading it 10 or so years ago I too find Anarres very stifling and was at first reminded more of ideas of communist regimes than anarchist utopias. Interestingly Shevek points out that there are few idealists left on Anarres due to the grind of struggle for survival. I began comparing Anarres to mouth of Matopoisett in Marge Piercy's Woman on the edge of time... there characters talk of a time when bare survival meant that people had to do without much of the time for reflection and play they currently enjoyed; but I never felt they had paid as little attention to the emotional as Anarres ... compare for example their different attitudes to childrearing and illness, work and commitments to close personal ties. Perhaps this reflects different strands of feminism and anarchism... the scientific strand of equal division of labour within an 'objective' positivist framework ... and the project of revaluing positivism in later more deconstructivist radical feminism. [uh...break from the jargon] I'm talking about the role of emotional closeness and its value within a society I suppose. Why is it 'ownership' on Anarres to feel ties? Knowing leGuins work and loving her mind I expect all this will get discussed later in the book... ByeBye Rachel wild@clara.co.uk PS this is my first post so "Hello everyone" ~:0> --part1_b2.95c647e.29de2bf5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK just a [fairly] short one to begin...
I have just begun the dispossessed after reading it 10 or so years ago

I too find Anarres very stifling and was at first reminded more of ideas of communist regimes than anarchist utopias. Interestingly Shevek points out that there are few idealists left on Anarres due to the grind of struggle for survival.

I began comparing Anarres to mouth of Matopoisett in Marge Piercy's Woman on the edge of time... there characters talk of a time when bare survival meant that people had to do without much of the time for reflection and play they currently enjoyed; but I never felt they had paid as little attention to the emotional as Anarres ... compare for example their different attitudes to childrearing and illness, work and commitments to close personal ties.

Perhaps this reflects different strands of feminism and anarchism... the scientific strand of equal division of labour within an 'objective' positivist framework ... and the project of revaluing positivism in later more deconstructivist radical feminism. [uh...break from the jargon] I'm talking about the role of emotional closeness and its value within a society I suppose. Why is it 'ownership' on Anarres to feel ties?

Knowing leGuins work and loving her mind I expect all this will get discussed later in the book...

ByeBye
Rachel
wild@clara.co.uk
PS this is my first post so "Hello everyone" ~:0> --part1_b2.95c647e.29de2bf5_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 12:59:27 +1200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jenn Martin Subject: Re: BDG The Disposessed Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >I'm talking about the role of emotional closeness and its value within a >society >I suppose. Why is it 'ownership' on Anarres to feel ties? Just a thought, but maybe it's 'ownership' on Anarres to feel ties because it -is- an ambigious utopia. I guess it's possible that part of Le Guin's ambiguity is that it isn't quite a utopia afterall, that the theoretical ideas didn't really translate all that well in practise. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say 'maybe Odo got it wrong, and this is the result'... but I certainly got the sense, reading the book, that things weren't as peachy as they seemed. They moment that made the most impact on me was when Shevek is leaving Anarres and meets suchb violent resistance. The idea of that wall as a boundary, and the impact that his crossing it had on his fellow Odonians was quite terrifying, to me. Personally, I think feeling ties is human, I wouldn't cope very well lacking that. Jenn, busy at work, with only enough time for a quick thought. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world^Òs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:37:33 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Margaret Poore Subject: Re: BDG The Disposessed Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am one of those older folk who had the reaction to Odonianism that UKL'G expected. I thought it seemed like a very admirable society. but I have always thought that communism was a great idea; too bad no one has ever really tried it. And maybe that is her point: that it is very hard to put ideals into practice. And even if the original settlers got it "right", which seems to have been the case, sentient beings, or humans, anyway, have an innate need to create social structure. And even the most egalitarian, power-neutral society will eventually drift back toward a hierarchical and power-based system. Or maybe that would happen only in an environment where resources are scarce. It reminds me of religion; someone has a wonderful insight or message about love and people flock to the idea. Then a few generations later a great big "institution" has formed around the idea and/or personality and the whole idea gets turned on its head and we have crusades and jihads. I have always loved this book and have read it many times, and always something new in it I hadn't noticed before. This time what I noticed is that even though Shevek is shunned or criticized at every stage of his life ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 22:11:16 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Margaret Poore Subject: Re: BDG The Disposessed Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit oops, hit the send button by accident..... so even tho Shevek never seems to fit into Odonian society, or at least there is always someone who thinks so, he himself completely internalizes it. He becomes the ideal Odonian, the one who continues to follow wherever the revolution leads him. He questions everything, including his own actions. He regrets his decision to take a posting that takes him far away from Takver and results in a four-year separation. He agrees to share authorship of his "Principles" since it is the only way to get it published and later realizes that the ends do not justify the means. He accepts the position at the university, knowing that they intend to "buy" his work by sponsoring him. But in each case his Odonianism leads him to realize his error, to change the direction of his life to fit his ideals. He creates his own position in society after the posting at the Physics Institute is denied him. He realizes that he cannot sell his work to the propertarians and finds a way to share it with everyone. I think Annares is an ambiguous utopia because it both works and doesn't work at the same time. They experience a freedom that their counterparts on Urras long for, even die to obtain. And yet for some, like Tirin, freedom becomes restraint as he is slowly destroyed by the dissonance between acting like a true Odonian and the rejection he experiences by Odonian society. On the other hand, Shevek, the ideal Odonian, finds freedom to move beyond each constraint or obstacle in his path. He is the revolutionary who never stops re-inventing himself whenever the archists seem to have him boxed in. I am realizing that Shevek is one of my very favorite fictional characters....and he's a MAN! NightSky ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 23:58:31 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joy Martin Subject: The Dispossessed Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A beginning post: As I reread this, I slowly remembered the details of the society, although as seems to have happened quite a lot in my mind, I had parts of one of Samuel Delaney's novels, set on a similar world with similar communistic (communism with a little c) makeup mixed up with my memories of Dispossessed. The one memory that had stuck clearly in my mind after all these years was the conversation Shevek has with Vea in the park (on Urras), where she shushes him when he treads in the area of her being owned by men. That was the scene at the time, however many years ago, that struck the biggest chord with me, because it was clearly a discussion of the female as object, which at the time was probably one of the most radical ideas around . (Personally, I think it still is, but because of all kinds of developments, it doesn't shock or stir us in the same way. ) I do not find the Odonian society 'stifling'; rather, it becomes clear as the book progresses that social consensus has become overly constricting for some individuals.Back at the time I read this first, lots of feminists would have described Shevek as 'elitist' , in the sense that anyone out on the end of any bellcurve (whether it's intelligence or any other attribute) was seen as 'elite'. Anyone who stands out in any human group risks being ostracized, which is one of the less attractive tendencies of human beings, although it has its roots probably in protectiveness for survival of the small bands in which humans originated. Scenes like the beginning one, where the guard at the space landing area cannot understand the word 'bastard' (there is no translation) and looks contemptuously at the pistol of the crew member from the ship (and his threat), show a society which is very rooted in a nonviolent and egalitarian point of view which is still, to this day, refreshing. Numerous similar moments are shown throughout the novel. But an egalitarian communistic society will still have the problem of group dominance of individuals, which LeGuin goes to some pains to point out without wielding a heavy handed ideological axe (such as someone very antiCommunistic might wield; not very helpful in gaining insights ). Actually, the society reminds me more of some types of traditional societies - say Native American - where basically everyone is equal but the main form of social control is the opinion of others (well, roles and rituals too, of course) rather than legal and other types of hierarchical methods. I think LeGuin does an excellent job of showing how this society is preferable for the majority of people to the capitalistic one on Urras, because, for example, as Shevek points out, no one starves while there is food available (i.e., people aren't allowed to feast while others starve). The biggest inequity in that regard is when Shevek gets dessert every day at school, when it's so unusual in the rest of society, and he ends up giving up dessert because it bothers his conscience. One might surmise, if the society wasn't so materially poor, bigger inequities might exist, given the problems of hoarding and 'egoizing' demonstrated by Sabul and in the PDC. I think LeGuin is showing us that no society is perfect, and even the best intentioned always needs a means to prevent consolidation of power. Every generation, we like to say about democracy, must recreate freedom, or, as Rich pointed out in her discussion of Dunayevskaya and Marx, revolution must be perpetual or fail. Shevek and his friends' Syndicate of Initiative is a means built upon the norms of Odonian society to keep the society from calcifying. It's not particularly a criticism of the Odonian society, but of any human society, that the tendency to overconformity and stultification is always there, and always requires some type of counterbalance. -Joy Martin "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:31:02 +0800 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Carol Ryles Subject: BDG: Gate to Women's Country Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Thanks everyone for the discussion on Gate. I certainly enjoyed reading all your comments. Unfortunately, ill health kept me away from the computer, so I had to read most of the discussion somewhat belatedly. However, I learned heaps, Thanks again, Carol. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 20:47:17 EST Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joy Martin Subject: Dorothy Bryant Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dorothy Bryant, who wrote the Kin of Ata (the Comforter), as well as many other feminist books , has a new book, called 'Literary Lynching: When Readers Censor Writers", being published biweekly in successive chapters on the website of Patricial Holt (former Book Editor, San Francisco Chronicle). Go to http://www.holtuncensored.com and click on Literary Lynching to read the first entries (the intro and Chapter 1, which is about Turgenev and accusations made against him). Bryant always has something interesting to say, and from unusual perspectives. As far as I know, this is her first webpublished book. Most of her books are self published through her own Ata Press.-Joy Martin "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 13:05:35 +1200 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jenn Martin Subject: Re: The Dispossessed Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed All of this talk about revolution, the idea that it must be perpetual or fail, and the fact that Shevek is the ideal Odonian, because he continues to support the ideas behind the revolution, no matter what his circumstances, plus the fact that The Dispossessed has a cricular narrative and journey, have reminded me of a book that I think influenced Le Guin when she was writing the Dispossessed. I'm sure she's read it: We, by Yevgeny Zamyatin. It's a book in which a future totalitarian state in a post-nuclear Russia is threatened by a small group of revolutionaries. Zamyatin uses colour imagery to emphasise the stasis and entropy of the totalitarian society and the circular and always-perpeptuating nature of revolution. Has anyone read it? - Jenn _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 07:26:04 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dave Belden Subject: Re: The Dispossessed Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I was first enthused by Le Guin's writing, 25 years ago, I picked up a copy of We, but it didn't make a big impression. I think I was bored by it, and didn't finish it. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC > [mailto:feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Jenn Martin > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 8:06 PM > To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] The Dispossessed > > > All of this talk about revolution, the idea that it must be perpetual or > fail, and the fact that Shevek is the ideal Odonian, because he > continues to > support the ideas behind the revolution, no matter what his circumstances, > plus the fact that The Dispossessed has a cricular narrative and journey, > have reminded me of a book that I think influenced Le Guin when she was > writing the Dispossessed. I'm sure she's read it: We, by Yevgeny > Zamyatin. > It's a book in which a future totalitarian state in a > post-nuclear Russia is > threatened by a small group of revolutionaries. Zamyatin uses colour > imagery to emphasise the stasis and entropy of the totalitarian > society and > the circular and always-perpeptuating nature of revolution. Has > anyone read > it? > > - Jenn > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 11:00:29 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rachel Wild Subject: BDG the disposessed Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_aa.97f7a7a.29e1b90d_boundary" --part1_aa.97f7a7a.29e1b90d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, I'm enjoying the debates on the Dispossessed very much... here's another one for you: I have just read the part where Shevek sexually assaults Vea. Although she seems to take the incident as a minor inconvenience [as many terran women today do] as she is accustomed to men treating her as an object, I found it either a flaw in the narrative or in Odonian influence on sexual equality. Why is Shevek excited by her resistance, why does he respond to her exaggerated 'femininity', why does he not immediately stop his advances when she objects? I question if Odonian society would produce a sexuality that would respond well to the physicality of Vea. Wouldn't a society where women are not objectified produce an attraction to equal power in sexuality rather than the reverse ... to tough hairy practical women? LeGuin argues that rape is uncommon on Anarres because there are lots of outlets for sexual expression - This side-steps the conception of rape as an act of power over another. [I suspect that groundbreaking assertion by feminists was not contemporary when she wrote the Dispossessed.] What do you think? does this incident fit with the rest of the narrative? is it an example of Shevek being corrupted by living unequally to women (I hope not.... the idea of a year offworld undoing all that conditioning ...) or are there flaws in Odonian society about how women are perceived as different to men? is Anarres a feminist society? and if it ever was, is the revolution faltering here too? ByeBye Rachel --part1_aa.97f7a7a.29e1b90d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, I'm enjoying the debates on the Dispossessed very much... here's another one for you:

I have just read the part where Shevek sexually assaults Vea. Although she seems to take the incident as a minor inconvenience [as many terran women today do] as she is accustomed to men treating her as an object, I found it either a flaw in the narrative or in Odonian influence on sexual equality.

Why is Shevek excited by her resistance, why does he respond to her exaggerated 'femininity', why does he not immediately stop his advances when she objects?

I question if Odonian society would produce a sexuality that would respond well to the physicality of Vea. Wouldn't a society where women are not objectified produce an attraction to equal power in sexuality rather than the reverse ... to tough hairy practical women?

LeGuin argues that rape is uncommon on Anarres because there are lots of outlets for sexual expression - This side-steps the conception of rape as an act of power over another. [I suspect that groundbreaking assertion by feminists was not contemporary when she wrote the Dispossessed.]

What do you think? does this incident fit with the rest of the narrative? is it an example of Shevek being corrupted by living unequally to women (I hope not.... the idea of a year offworld undoing all that conditioning ...) or are there flaws in Odonian society about how women are perceived as different to men? is Anarres a feminist society? and if it ever was, is the revolution faltering here too?

ByeBye
Rachel --part1_aa.97f7a7a.29e1b90d_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 12:21:48 EDT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: BDG the disposessed Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/7/02 10:00:53 AM Central Daylight Time, Wildseed13@AOL.COM writes: << What do you think? does this incident fit with the rest of the narrative? >> I felt that this section was possibly the most dated part of the book. Even given that Shevek is very drunk, and that in the end he stops, saying he thought she wanted, etc., it still fit an understanding of sexual assault that has been largely reputed. -Joy Martin "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 13:17:25 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Rose Reith Subject: The Dispossessed mentioned in today's Washington Post Book World Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" From the broaduniverse listserve: At 12:47 PM -0400 4/7/02, Rob Gates wrote: >Hey Folks, > >Just a quick FYI that today's Washington Post Book World appears to be an >sf/fantasy/horror issue. There are a number of references of relevance to >folks here, and one particular article (by Elizabeth Hand) deals >specifically with women in the genre. > >You can see Book World online at >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/style/books/ I pulled up this page and found this mention of _The Dispossessed_ along with lots of other interesting info from various writers in the article titled "Close Encounters" ... Many people have dated a new era in their lives from the reading of just the right book. For this special issue, Book World asked some eminent writers, critics and editors to choose a favorite work of fantasy or science fiction, then explain in a few words a little of its personal importance or particular artistic achievement. MICHAEL CHABON NANCY KRESS When I first read Ursula K. Le Guin's 1974 novel The Dispossessed , I thought of its protagonist, "But Shevek is real!" It was the first time I had ever thought this about a science-fiction character: that he was as solid, as multifaceted, as contradictory and admirable and perverse as the characters in "mainstream" literature. It was a revelation. Science-fiction characters didn't all have to be lantern-jawed heroes or family-less adventurers or single-minded scientists. Real people, with slack jaws and families and hopelessly tangled loyalties, could inhabit the wondrously invented worlds of the future. And then I discovered Le Guin had actually pulled off this feat before: in her amazing The Left Hand of Darkness. In the quarter-century since, I have reread The Dispossessed several times. And he's still there: Shevek, a real person worth knowing, and (like most real people) impossible to know completely. He's as large and varied as his planet. And (added riches) so are Takver and Rulag and Bedap and the unfortunate Tirin. Le Guin's novel is frequently praised for its idealistic political insight and its beautiful prose. Those things are there, but to me they cannot compare with her achievement in deepening characterization in science fiction. And then I discovered that Le Guin had pulled off this feat before: in her amazing The Left Hand of Darkness. Real people -- how basic, how cataclysmic, how overdue. (Nancy Kress is the author of 18 books, most notably "Beggars in Spain." She is also the monthly fiction columnist for Writer's Digest magazine.) -- 'As a woman I have no country. As a woman my country is the whole world.' Virginia Woolf