Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0206B" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 12:21:41 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Linda Novak Subject: My votes Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Watts, Peter: STARFISH. Piercy, Marge: HE, SHE AND IT. Tepper, Sheri S: THE FRESCO McHugh, Maureen: MISSION CHILD Thanks! --Linda ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 13:26:03 -0400 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: BDG Voting Reminder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed There seems to be confusion about this... Your votes need to go to Terri Wakefield at . They should not be sent to the list. Thank you. -- Janice, for the BDG volunteers ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 14:27:55 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Linda Novak Subject: Re: BDG Voting Reminder Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_96.2783f762.2a33a6ab_boundary" --part1_96.2783f762.2a33a6ab_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks! --part1_96.2783f762.2a33a6ab_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks! --part1_96.2783f762.2a33a6ab_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 11:57:09 +0000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: sharon Anderson Subject: Quuestion Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020607124158.00ac6c40@impop.bellatlantic.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Next week, I am supposed to be getting a new ISP. While I have been told that this will not interfere with my mail....I am skeptical. Please send me instructions on what to do if I stop getting this list. Thanks. ---s ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:01:16 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Ronda Whitman Subject: Re: My votes Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_175.9840b11.2a3697cc_boundary" --part1_175.9840b11.2a3697cc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please take me off your list Rondaw3@aol.com --part1_175.9840b11.2a3697cc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please take me off your list Rondaw3@aol.com --part1_175.9840b11.2a3697cc_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:01:45 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Ronda Whitman Subject: Re: BDG Voting Reminder Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_16.20693f37.2a3697e9_boundary" --part1_16.20693f37.2a3697e9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please take me off you list thank you Rondaw3@aol.com --part1_16.20693f37.2a3697e9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please take me off you list thank you Rondaw3@aol.com --part1_16.20693f37.2a3697e9_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:00:31 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Ronda Whitman Subject: Re: Quuestion Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_41.1e657c40.2a36979f_boundary" --part1_41.1e657c40.2a36979f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please take me off your list thank you Rondaw3@aol.com --part1_41.1e657c40.2a36979f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please take me off your list thank you Rondaw3@aol.com --part1_41.1e657c40.2a36979f_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:29:02 -0400 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Terri Wakefield Subject: Woman on the Edge of Time Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone Sorry about the over-a-week-late kick off for The Woman on the Edge of Time= =B2 discussion. I have been incredibly busy this summer. First a couple of interesting web sites: Marge Piery=B9s home page http://archer-books.com/Piercy/ Another Marge Piercy site http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~sparks/piercy/mpindex.html And a review of WOET http://dannyreviews.com/h/Woman_on_the_Edge_of_Time.html Terri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:29:41 -0400 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Terri Wakefield Subject: Woman on the Edge of Time Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi again Just a few questions to get us started.... What special qualities did Consuela have that might have contributed to her being chosen as a receptor? Woman on the Edge of Time took place in 1976. Do you feel that politically, and environmentally, the same concerns are still timely in 2002? Did you think that Mattapoisett in 2137 could be considered utopian? Why, or why not? What about the language, gender roles, and their attitudes towards childre= n and parenting? Do you feel Connie=B9s description of mental hospitals in the 70=B9s is accurate. Do you think it possible these kind of mind invasive operations actually could take place? Genetic altering seemed to be very important. The Mixers scanned for genetics defects, while the Shapers bred for selected traits. How do these differences contribute to the formation of two so different future cultures= ? Connie=B9s poisoning of the doctors she refers to as =B3an act of war=B2. What do you think she meant by this statement? I thought this was very exciting read on many different levels. I=B9ve read it twice in the last month, and I believe I could read it a couple more times, and still miss a few things. Terri Wakefield ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:27:03 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Rachel Wild Subject: BDG - Woman on the edge of time Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_6e.1de1670a.2a37c527_boundary" --part1_6e.1de1670a.2a37c527_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This book was first given to me about 14 years ago when I was 17 - I read it in one sitting and then laid on my bed crying because, like Connie, I could not be in touch with Matapoisett any longer. It was hugely influential on my feminist development and I still hold the culture portrayed in Matoipoisett as a touch-stone for how I'm trying to make the world become. I don't feel they had everything right - and I think one of the strengths of the book is how Connie herself critiques this future world - but I have often said that I would willingly give up my life in this time to live in their world... even if I could never return. To me Matapoisett is *real* - it is, as it's residents say 'one possible future' and one that would need to be fought for. Perhaps one we have drifted further from possibly getting to. Some of the structures of Mattoipaisettan culture are more obviously descended from 1976 thought than others - We of this time have more suspicion of genetic modification than feminists did then, we perhaps have less trust in a desirability of gynandrous culture also. But when Connie makes the heartwrenching decision that she would wish her child, Angelina, to a future she regards as peopled by 'mongrel, sexless children' who have no conception of the pain of struggling with racism and sexism - my heart is with her... to have a life where people can grow free, always learning, always striving for peace - surely this is worth giving up a lot for? Some of my friends [a lot of whom would choose this book as the one they would take to a desert island] have most problems with the way Matoipoisettans conceive children - that they do not bear children in their bodies - Connie too is horrified. I would not choose to work for a world that used this technology, but feel there is *a* logic in the story that women gave up this experience so that men could become more human through the process of mothering. I do think that the idea of 3 comothers, who are not lovers, is one that might just work. Its one I would try myself if I met 2 other people equally convinced. I am hugely influenced by ideas of education, government, friendship, environment and community shown in Matoiposett's culture - surely they are ideas that were not unusual when the book was written, but the synergy Piercy creates in this novel is unusual ... so much so that I am sometimes spooked into believing she wrote it in collaboration with Luciente! [well, would this be impossible? ... few of her other books are this visionary, though often moving] As to the flipsides to this world - I am convinced Piercy's portrayal of psychiatric institutions is accurate ... and last month a team of researchers exhibited a rat that is conditioned by stimulation of its pain/pleasure centres [via a neural implant] to move where it is directed. A rat cybourg controllable by a joystick! so the experiment scenario is not far fetched... just a little premature. And with the rising popularity of body modification as a way to escape class destiny... the cyber future Connie blunders into is all to much a possibility. One glaring flaw in the ?utopian? aspects of the future portrayed is Piercy's (historical) unawareness of modern Disability perspectives - the genetic modification aspects do not allow for the positive interpretation of a world with impairments... [physical and intellectual - though interestingly madness is no longer Disabling] compare this for example to _Stawhawk, Fifth Sacred Thing_ where many people are of impaired bodies [the Monsters community for example], where eveyone can Sign so as to include Deaf people. As may be apparent [smile] this book is my 'bible' - one I base my moral code on... and though I am a 'reform' Mattoipaisettan feminist - I do consider this one of the most valuable feminist Sci-Fi novels... it does what I think the best speculative fiction IMHO should do - It teaches us to look critically at our own time and cultures and it offers valid alternatives... It makes us aware of ourselves and where we may want to go. ByeBye Rachel Reading this book for the *umpteenth* time - --part1_6e.1de1670a.2a37c527_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This book was first given to me about 14 years ago when I was 17 - I read it in one sitting and then laid on my bed crying because, like Connie, I could not be in touch with Matapoisett any longer.
It was hugely influential on my feminist development and I still hold the culture portrayed in Matoipoisett as a touch-stone for how I'm trying to make the world become.
I don't feel they had everything right - and I think one of the strengths of the book is how Connie herself critiques this future world - but I have often said that I would willingly give up my life in this time to live in their world... even if I could never return.

To me Matapoisett is *real* - it is, as it's residents say 'one possible future' and one that would need to be fought for. Perhaps one we have drifted further from possibly getting to.

Some of the structures of Mattoipaisettan culture are more obviously descended from 1976 thought than others - We of this time have more suspicion of genetic modification than feminists did then, we perhaps have less trust in a desirability of gynandrous culture also. But when Connie makes the heartwrenching decision that she would wish her child, Angelina, to a future she regards as peopled by 'mongrel, sexless children' who have no conception of the pain of struggling with racism and sexism -  my heart is with her... to have a life where people can grow free, always learning, always striving for peace - surely this is worth giving up a lot for?

Some of my friends [a lot of whom would choose this book as the one they would take to a desert island] have most problems with the way Matoipoisettans conceive children - that they do not bear children in their bodies - Connie too is horrified. I would not choose to work for a world that used this technology, but feel there is *a* logic in the story that women gave up this experience so that men could become more human through the process of mothering.
I do think that the idea of 3 comothers, who are not lovers, is one that might just work. Its one I would try myself if I met 2 other people equally convinced.

I am hugely influenced by ideas of education, government, friendship, environment and community shown in Matoiposett's culture - surely they are ideas that were not unusual when the book was written, but the synergy Piercy creates in this novel is unusual ... so much so that I am sometimes spooked into believing she wrote it in collaboration with Luciente!
[well, would this be impossible? ... few of her other books are this visionary, though often moving]
As to the flipsides to this world - I am convinced Piercy's portrayal of psychiatric institutions is accurate ... and last month a team of researchers exhibited a rat that is conditioned by stimulation of its pain/pleasure centres [via a neural implant] to move where it is directed. A rat cybourg controllable by a joystick! so the experiment scenario is not far fetched... just a little premature. And with the rising popularity of body modification as a way to escape class destiny... the cyber future Connie blunders into is all to much a possibility.

One glaring flaw in the ?utopian? aspects of the future portrayed is Piercy's (historical) unawareness of modern Disability perspectives - the genetic modification aspects do not allow for the positive interpretation of a world with impairments... [physical and intellectual - though interestingly madness is no longer Disabling] compare this for example to _Stawhawk, Fifth Sacred Thing_ where many people are of impaired bodies [the Monsters community for example], where eveyone can Sign so as to include Deaf people.

As may be apparent [smile] this book is my 'bible'  - one I base my moral code on... and though I am a 'reform' Mattoipaisettan feminist - I do consider this one of the most valuable feminist Sci-Fi novels... it does what I think the best speculative fiction IMHO should do - It teaches us to look critically at our own time and cultures and it offers valid alternatives...
It makes us aware of ourselves and where we may want to go.

ByeBye
Rachel

Reading this book for the *umpteenth* time -

--part1_6e.1de1670a.2a37c527_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:33:44 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/11/02 2:25:11 PM Central Daylight Time,=20 terrierg@MAINE.RR.COM writes: << Do you feel Connie=B9s description of mental hospitals in the 70=B9s is accurate. Do you think it possible these kind of mind invasive operations actually could take place? >> Just one question at a time for starters: if anything, in rereading this=20 book, I was more impressed by the accuracy of the (mental) hospital=20 descriptions today than I was then. This is not so much because of any great= =20 familiarity with mental hospitals, though like many people I've heard and=20 read lots of horrifying stories, but because the attitudes of medical=20 personnel is something I've only had validated over and over again throughou= t=20 my life. The older I become, the more obvious the dehumanizing process and=20 more apparent that the imbalance isn't due to age (for example) but to the=20 basic medical model. And as I've become older, I tolerate it less, and then=20 I've really found out what happens when doctors think you've overstepped you= r=20 bounds. You don't have to be incarcerated or from a certain ethnic group or=20 social class (or sex) to experience the extreme power imbalance between=20 doctor and 'patient', and if all of those things (incarceration, ethnicity,=20 class, sex) are added into the mix, what you get is exactly what Piercy=20 described. Could such experiments be done? Of course, in fact, they have=20 been. Not perhaps the implants described, but equally devastating surgeries=20 and other experiments. I'd like to believe things have changed a lot in=20 mental hospitals, but I very much doubt that for people who are considered=20 violent and have actually been committed against their will, which is=20 perhaps a little harder to do today than in the 70s, things are that=20 different now. Piercy is amazing in showing us the objectification from the=20 inside of the person objectified. -Joy=20 "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety= =20 deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin