Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0207A" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:17:00 +0100 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Angela Barclay Subject: BDG Schedule Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Apologies BDG members: It is my job to post reminders of upcoming book discussions and I failed to do so in regards to this month's selection, Marge Piercy's _He, She and It_, which we were to have begun discussing today. The other works in this round are as follows: >August 5 -- The Fifth Sacred Thing, by Starhawk >September 2 -- The Annunciate, by Severna Park >October 7 -- The Books of Great Alta, by Jane Yolen When I went to replace my lost copy of _White Jenna_, the second installation in The Books of Great Alta, I discovered that it is out of print (here in Canada). I also discovered that _The One-Armed Queen_ (1998) is considered to be part of the Great Alta saga. I have only ever seen the books published separately- are they combined in _The Books of Great Alta_? If so, does the combined version include _The One-Armed Queen_? Lastly, are we going to discuss the third installation if it is not included in a combined work? Angela, on behalf of the BDG committee ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:25:42 +0200 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Petra Mayerhofer Organization: http://freemail.web.de/ Subject: Re: BDG Schedule Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When I went to replace my lost copy of _White Jenna_, the second > installation in The Books of Great Alta, I discovered that it is out of > print (here in Canada). I also discovered that _The One-Armed Queen_ (1998) > is considered to be part of the Great Alta saga. I have only ever seen the > books published separately- are they combined in _The Books of Great Alta_? > If so, does the combined version include _The One-Armed Queen_? Lastly, are > we going to discuss the third installation if it is not included in a > combined work? Publication details on the BDG book of October: The Books of Great Alta by Jane Yolen Paperback: 448 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.15 x 8.28 x 5.52 Publisher: St. Martin's Press; ISBN: 031286258X; (April 1997) List Price: $16.95 This book consists of Sister Light, Sister Dark (originally published in 1988) and the sequel White Jenna (1989). That means the third book (I was not aware that there is a third one) is not part of the BDG discussion but that shouldn't stop anyone (please keep in mind, that for non-BDG books spoiler warnings might be necessary). According to Amazon.com the above edition is available in 3 to 4 days. I don't know what this means for Canada. That's information of Amazon.com on _The One-Armed Queen_: The One-Armed Queen by Jane Yolen Mass Market Paperback: 352 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.95 x 6.79 x 4.21 Publisher: Tor Books; ISBN: 0812564790; (August 1999) List Price: $6.99 "Yolen resumes the saga of Queen Jenna and Prince Carum of the Dales that began in Sister Light, Sister Dark (1988) and continued in White Jenna (1989). The couple's children are growing. According to custom, Jenna's adopted daughter, Scillia, will be her heir. First-born son Jemson, however, is ambitious and unruly, and he falls under the influence of the schemes of the Garunites, whose former occupation of the Dales has not been forgotten and whose desire to reconquer them has not diminished. When Jemson is sent to Garun as a hostage, his unruliness turns into open rebellion. As has come to be usual for the hyperprolific Yolen, the tale is well told in all particulars, including historiographical interludes that satirize academic fashions and politics as well as 10 songs in Celtic style, collaborations by Yolen and her musician son, Adam Stemple, that appear in score, with tablature, in an appendix. Demanding but excellent fantasy fare." Angela, perhaps my email on this was lost. If you like I can do the BDG announcements in this round. Petra ______________________________________________________________________________ FreeMail in der Premiumversion! Mit mehr Speicher, mehr Leistung, mehr Erlebnis und mehr Pramie. Jetzt unter http://club.web.de/?mc=021105 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 02:00:09 +1000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Maire Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time / baby labs Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just commenting- I thought that Piercy- and I realise you are referring to Firestone- said that, women realised (in Luciente's world) that in order to have complete equality etc, they had to also give up their own long held onto bastion of power- pregnancy. Personally, I did find it very sad... (that biological birth was abandoned). I preferred the solution in Slonczewski's Door into OCean, where everyone became "female"... or, at least, a physiology that we now would class as female. Maire > -----Original Message----- > From: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and > Utopia [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Joy Martin > Sent: Wednesday, 26 June 2002 1:05 AM > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Woman on the Edge of Time / baby labs > > > In a message dated 6/25/02 7:20:55 AM Central Daylight Time, > jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU writes: > > << but not gender differences...no.... just can't be tolerated for some > reason. > >> > Actually, I think it was one gender difference - the reproductive > difference > - that was changed or eliminated. That's not to say that I don't think > there's room for disagreement with Firestone on this issue. I think the > emphasis of Firestone was on power and where it comes from and > how it can be > changed (to put it very loosely; I'd suggest reading her to get > the actually > arguments), and the idea that childbirth puts women at a serious > disadvantage > in many respects. But of course, the question of who controls > technology is > just as difficult. If you can get the control of technology that > you need to > make it work in a prowoman or egalitarian way, then you don't necessarily > need to change the biology. Firestone was struggling with some of > the basic > questions of how come women were/are oppressed, and how to end it, and > biology and childbirth seemed like a basic situation which resulted in > disempowerment. At any rate, it is definitely true that control of women > reproductively, and women's right to control their own bodies and > reproduction and all that goes with it , are still issues being > fought over > everyday in the political realm. It's still an essential question, but I > think Firestone was kind of begging it by thinking technology could be the > solution, because control of technology is the same battle.-Joy > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little > temporary safety > deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 02:06:26 +1000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Maire Subject: Re: Desert Isle reading Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just wanted to make the comment- I reckon that if I was going off to live on a desert island, then the books I would cart along with me, would be all the books that this group has choosen for its BDGs. Very good reading. Maire ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 18:24:03 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time / baby labs Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/4/02 12:07:09 PM Central Daylight Time, mairen@BIGPOND.COM writes: << Just commenting- I thought that Piercy- and I realise you are referring to Firestone- said that, women realised (in Luciente's world) that in order to have complete equality etc, they had to also give up their own long held onto bastion of power- pregnancy. Personally, I did find it very sad... (that biological birth was abandoned). I preferred the solution in Slonczewski's Door into OCean, where everyone became "female"... or, at least, a physiology that we now would class as female. >> Yes, Piercy's future said giving up giving birth was giving up one form of power. (Power re children, in general, which in the hierarchical structures is the only power 'over' other humans women have usually been allowed) in order to enable equality. I don't remember if Firestone used this argument as such, since she saw reproduction as disempowering, for the most part. It seems doubtful that she did use that argument, but I'm not positive she didn't . However, one can see reproduction as a whole as contributing to the oppression of women, and still see that some aspects of being a mother can still be 'powerful'. I think we tend to romanticize pregnancy and live birth, but, as I said, I think the notion that you should stop all that in order to reach an egalitarian society somewhat begs the question. And of course it wasn't just pregnancy and birth, but the singular unit of mother/child, and that unit raising the child, that was given up. The two are somewhat separate, as adoption and now various birth technologies has made clearer. At any rate, it's quite clear we are on the road to various forms of technological interventions in biological reproduction with farreaching consequences, and none of these have been developed with women in control or making the decisions on how to proceed, deciding what technological choicesetc to make. Right now it looks like there is going to be a technological separation of pregnancy, birth and parenting from the biological parent(s), and it doesn't look like the result is going to be anything like the one in Piercy's future. That one will look good compared to what seems to be coming. -Joy "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 12:07:09 +1000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Maire Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <12d.1327c9c4.2a4906da@cs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do you think that Luciente etc knew Connie's history? that she would "void" the problem of the mind-control tech, by "nipping it in the bud" by ... (trying to avoid explicit spoilers) her actions towards the doctors? Perhaps Connie's life was... a kind of crux between the two futures, a splitting of possibilities.. the one in which she accepts the op (leading to the nightmare future), the other in which not only does she not, but she eliminates the creators of the technology (leading to Luciente's future) ON a completely different note- SOmething I found strange was Connie's acceptance of the war that Luciente etc were involved in. Such a peaceful society, yet constant references to the front, the need for all to have a turn at defence etc etc, CONnie seemed totally incurious. Maire > -----Original Message----- > From: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and > Utopia [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Joy Martin > Sent: Tuesday, 25 June 2002 9:36 AM > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Woman on the Edge of Time > > > In a message dated 6/24/02 4:32:08 PM Central Daylight Time, > Wildseed13@AOL.COM writes: > > << not to crit per unjustly [!] but I don't see how Connie could have had > opportunities to develop these ideas even unconsciously - I > think such social > ideas are only possible as group-thought-evolution. >> > > Well, I think Connie could have thought of these things just as well as > Piercy could have. I don't think she was unaware of the social > changes around > her, but she was in a part of society where she wasn't reaping much in the > way of benefits (far from it) from any social change movements. In fact, I > think one of the important points of the book is that Connie is > important, in > the present, as a person who must do things in order to help > change the world > to make a better future possible. And I really don't see any > problem with the > idea that Connie could have seen, created, imagined, or whatever > other word > you want to use for it, the future she visits and is visited by. > > I also think the later link between Sybil and the college girl > volunteer who > was into witchcraft was (besides having a slightly satirical edge > to it) also > an enticing possibility of future connections that could lead to > the future > world Connie was helping keep real (her future contacts were trying to > preserve their world, by contacting Connie, or at least, so they > said; they > wanted something from her; that this may be her imagination or > 'reality' are > just two ways of looking at it; they could both be true, or even if it's > 'only' her imagination, the resistance she is able to make because of that > imagination is just as important, for the future, as it is if her future > visits are 'real'. In fact, by her imagining them, and Piercy > writing it, and > helping us imagine a different future, that's also helping create that > future. And so far none of us who have said this story inspired > them has said > they actually visited the future like Connie did. But it still makes a > difference for the future. If you get my drift. It really doesn't > matter if > it's real or not real, in the normal usage of the word. Or, what > is 'real', > and what creates reality? We do it, one way or another, in ever > so many ways, > mental, social,etc.) > > Also of course Piercy says in her thanks page that she's "in debt to the > folks from Mouth -of-Mattpoisett who worked so hard to make me understand- > who found me dense and slow of wit, but always told me that at > least I try". > Explicitly inviting us to consider the possibility that she, in > writing the > book, has also visited that future. And you can take that also in ever so > many ways. > > Piercy (and I think other feminist writers who right now aren't coming to > mind) is questioning the whole notion of 'madness', as well as the > 'treatment' of it. (In some cultures of course, the 'mad' are considered > sacred.) Madness could be , has been considered, a conduit into alternate > realities, in fact that's one of the things Piercy is showing us. > Connie is > being punished not for her visions (which she keeps secret) but for her > behavior which is outside accepted 'norms' for her family and for > the general > social world she lives in . People I've known in the past who > were in mental > institutions said it was very clear to them that the way to get out was to > totally conform to the behavioral norms the staff required of > them (norms by > the way that probably very few women would consider acceptable > now, and also > not then; but once you're a 'patient' in these places, your > rights go out the > window.) But then, those were middle class people who, if memory > serves, had > checked themselves in, not been committed for 'violent' behavior (which of > course, in Connie's case, was defensive and justifiable, but no > one believed > her or accepted her right to defend her niece and fight back against her > pimp/lover; a large part of this was class and ethnic bias, along with the > notion that any kind of violence from a woman is abnormal and > pathological). > > What is insanity? What is reality? Is imagination not real? Piercy really > invites us to consider all of these things, as much as the > particulars of the > future she and Connie have visited. > > Actually , what finally popped into my head was the 'baglady' > (Trudy, I think > is her name) that Lily Tomlin played in 'Search for Intelligent > Life in the > Universe'. That was from a much more humorous perspective (and > the character > wasn't in a mental institution, but living on the street, and so > had a whole > different level of autonomy), but some of the same ideas of what > is madness, > what is reality, who is sane and who isn't, and are the 'visitors' real or > imagined, and does it matter, or is it the same thing, were touched on in > that play. (I once tried to act that part in a workshop/class, > and there was > just an immense amount of possibilities in portraying that character). > > -Joy > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little > temporary safety > deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 12:10:22 +1000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Maire Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <27.296db214.2a48e9c6@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C2241C.EFC75EE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C2241C.EFC75EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just about the points about Connie not having been exposed to liberation movements etc etc etc- she did in fact, get actively involved in the War Against Poverty movement after Martine was killed. I think its a mistake for the reader to also get sucked into underestimating Connie, as the pyschiatrists etc did. Maire -----Original Message----- From: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Rachel Wild Sent: Tuesday, 25 June 2002 7:32 AM To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Woman on the Edge of Time Hi, Well... WoEoT is a book i have discussed widely in the UK and I have *never* come across anyone who 'reads' the future sections as products of Connie's mind - not to crit per unjustly [!] but I don't see how Connie could have had opportunities to develop these ideas even unconsciously - I think such social ideas are only possible as group-thought-evolution. Its my opinion that Piercy created a particularly original synergy of ideas around in the 1970's, but they were worked up collectively by various radical liberation movements. As I've said ... their dateline shows in the absence of later Disabled peoples perspectives. I find it fascinating, but sad, folk can read the book this way - do they also feel that this future is mad=negative or perhaps that Mad people can be punished for imagining outside the constraints of their society? [certainly true but nobody in the 1976 is aware of Connie's visions] I miss the vibrancy of feminist=liberation movement thought as it is tasted through WoEoT... [though I was 6 at the time!] but I'm glad that fiction has preserved some of that strand of thought for me to learn from. Feminism has always [?] gone in cycles of one step forward, one back, several sideways. It interests me that sci-fi becomes *historical* as well as visionary. Joy's points about resistance are pertinent here - Connie is living outside the reach of liberation movements ... she has always tried to change her lot as a woman ... but has never had support or solidarity, only Sybil is this for her and cannot be in her life outside the institution. I think Piercy was perceptive to criticise the way liberation misses people [an idea that became more accepted later] she shows the college 'girl' who tries to make a small link with Sybil about witchcraft and Connie speaks about her betrayals in the 'war on poverty' campaigns. What do people feel about the chance of a Mattoipaisettan future - can we get there from 2002? or has that time link dried up? would you want to get there? Bye Rachel ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C2241C.EFC75EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just about the=20 points about Connie not having been exposed to liberation movements etc = etc=20 etc-   she did in fact, get actively involved in the War = Against=20 Poverty movement after Martine was killed.    I think its = a=20 mistake for the reader to also get sucked into underestimating Connie, = as the=20 pyschiatrists etc did.
Maire
-----Original Message-----
From: friendly STRICTLY = ON TOPIC=20 discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia=20 [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Rachel = Wild
Sent:=20 Tuesday, 25 June 2002 7:32 AM
To:=20 FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU
Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Woman on the = Edge of=20 Time

Hi,=20

Well... WoEoT is a book i have discussed widely in the UK and = I have=20 *never* come across anyone who 'reads' the future sections as products = of=20 Connie's mind - not to crit per unjustly [!] but I don't see how = Connie could=20 have had opportunities to develop these ideas even unconsciously - I = think=20 such social ideas are only possible as group-thought-evolution. Its my = opinion=20 that Piercy created a particularly original synergy of ideas around in = the=20 1970's, but they were worked up collectively by various radical = liberation=20 movements. As I've said ... their dateline shows in the absence of = later=20 Disabled peoples perspectives.

I find it fascinating, but sad, =  folk can read the book this way - do they also feel that this = future is=20 mad=3Dnegative or perhaps that Mad people can be punished for = imagining outside=20 the constraints of their society? [certainly true but nobody in the = 1976 is=20 aware of Connie's visions]

I miss the vibrancy of = feminist=3Dliberation=20 movement thought as it is tasted through WoEoT... [though I was 6 at = the=20 time!] but I'm glad that fiction has preserved some of that strand of = thought=20 for me to learn from. Feminism has always [?] gone in cycles of one = step=20 forward, one back, several sideways. It interests me that sci-fi = becomes=20 *historical* as well as visionary.

Joy's points about = resistance are=20 pertinent here - Connie is living outside the reach of liberation = movements=20 ... she has always tried to change her lot as a woman ... but has = never had=20 support or solidarity, only Sybil is this for her and cannot be in her = life=20 outside the institution. I think Piercy was perceptive to criticise = the way=20 liberation misses people [an idea that became more accepted later] she = shows=20 the college 'girl' who tries to make a small link with Sybil about = witchcraft=20 and Connie speaks about her betrayals in the 'war on poverty' = campaigns.=20

What do people feel about the chance of a Mattoipaisettan = future - can=20 we get there from 2002? or has that time link dried up? would you want = to get=20 there?

Bye
Rachel = ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C2241C.EFC75EE0-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 12:12:32 +1000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Maire Subject: Ozark Trilogy Haden Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C2241D.3D86EF60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C2241D.3D86EF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all Just wanted to ask if anyone has heard and/or read these books... I bought them a couple of years ago when they were republished in omnibus. I read Native Tongue as an early teen and it had a big influence on me, so I grabbed the Ozark books. Just wondering if anyone had read them.. Maire ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C2241D.3D86EF60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear=20 all
Just = wanted to ask=20 if anyone has heard and/or read these books...  I bought them a = couple of=20 years ago when they were republished in omnibus.  I read Native = Tongue as=20 an early teen and it had a big influence on me, so I grabbed the Ozark=20 books.  Just wondering if anyone had read = them..
Maire
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C2241D.3D86EF60-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 12:13:35 +1000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Maire Subject: Re: Marge Piercy's _Body of Glass_/_He, She and It_ Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <200206041230.IAA17573@department-of-alchemy.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks jessie! I *never knew that! Silly me, I have a feeling I have copies of both... I definately have Body of Glass, bought for Aus $3 a while ago, so I am pleased. Maire > -----Original Message----- > From: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and > Utopia [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Jessie > Stickgold-Sarah > Sent: Tuesday, 4 June 2002 10:30 PM > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Marge Piercy's _Body of Glass_/_He, She and It_ > > > [I'm on digest, so I hope this isn't a duplicate.] > > _Body of Glass_ was published in the US as _He, She and It_, which is > available in mass market paperback and thus totally eligible for > nominating. Go for it! > > Jessie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 13:29:19 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: Ozark Trilogy Haden Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:12 PM 07/05/2002 +1000, you wrote: >Dear all >Just wanted to ask if anyone has heard and/or read these books... I >bought them a couple of years ago when they were republished in >omnibus. I read Native Tongue as an early teen and it had a big influence >on me, so I grabbed the Ozark books. Just wondering if anyone had read them.. >Maire I've read them, as I've read all Elgin's work, and absolutely adored them! Different from NATIVE TONGUE, but showing Elgin's Ozark culture in a big way! Will be thrilled to talk about them on or off list! Robin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 19:01:46 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/4/02 10:14:20 PM Central Daylight Time, mairen@BIGPOND.COM writes: << ON a completely different note- SOmething I found strange was Connie's acceptance of the war that Luciente etc were involved in. Such a peaceful society, yet constant references to the front, the need for all to have a turn at defence etc etc, CONnie seemed totally incurious. >> I seem to remember she had some questions later, but I think she had her hands full in the present, plus adjusting to the idea of the future, and ultimately her war was connected to their war. As I understood it, the front was with the forces from the old society that they had rebelled against. They were in the process of making a new society, but it wasn't a done deal, as their need to enlist Connie made clear.-Joy "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 18:32:53 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Ozark Trilogy Haden Comments: To: Feminist SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_73426497==_.ALT" --=====================_73426497==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I've read all of Haden's work and enjoyed them quite a lot. It was a pleasure to read, in Haden's own words, a lengthy SF novel filled with "stupid, incompetent men" and "smart, capable women" when so many SF novels were precisely vice versa. This is a theme she's returned to in many of her books, although it's not exactly a theme since it's so obviously true. ;-) It is relatively rare to, as Hamlet observed, see it thus set down. You can find the OT home page at: http://www.sfwa.org/members/elgin/OzarkTrilogy/index.html along with paper dolls for Responsible of Brightwater, of all things. At 12:12 PM 7/5/02 +1000, Maire wrote: >Dear all >Just wanted to ask if anyone has heard and/or read these books... I >bought them a couple of years ago when they were republished in >omnibus. I read Native Tongue as an early teen and it had a big influence >on me, so I grabbed the Ozark books. Just wondering if anyone had read them.. >Maire --=====================_73426497==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I've read all of Haden's work and enjoyed them quite a lot.
It was a pleasure to read, in Haden's own words, a lengthy
SF novel filled with "stupid, incompetent men" and "smart,
capable women" when so many SF novels were precisely
vice versa.

This is a theme she's returned to in many of her books,
although it's not exactly a theme since it's so obviously
true. ;-) It is relatively rare to, as Hamlet observed, see it
thus set down.

You can find the OT home page at:

http://www.sfwa.org/members/elgin/OzarkTrilogy/index.html

along with paper dolls for Responsible of Brightwater, of
all things.

At 12:12 PM 7/5/02 +1000, Maire wrote:
Dear all
Just wanted to ask if anyone has heard and/or read these books...  I bought them a couple of years ago when they were republished in omnibus.  I read Native Tongue as an early teen and it had a big influence on me, so I grabbed the Ozark books.  Just wondering if anyone had read them..
Maire
--=====================_73426497==_.ALT-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 19:09:04 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Ozark Trilogy Haden Comments: To: Feminist SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed You might also be interested in Yonder Comes the Other End of Time, which brings together the Ozark story with the Coyote Jones storyline for the first and only time. This general theme, the splitting off of distinct cultures from Earth has been investigated by many authors, from Blish's Cities in Flight stories, to Dickson's Splintered Cultures, to the execrable and tedious Herbert and pseudo-Herbert Dune interminablia, to Smith's fascinating and complex Instrumentality of Man stories. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 22:17:12 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: Ozark Trilogy Haden Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/5/02 8:38:32 PM Central Daylight Time, leeanne@LEEANNE.COM writes: << You can find the OT home page at: http://www.sfwa.org/members/elgin/OzarkTrilogy/index.html >> I hadn't realized Elgin was from Missouri (now Arkansas). I'm a Missourian myself and grew up in the Ozark foothills. Thanks for the info.-Joy "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 19:39:45 +1000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Maire Subject: Re: Ozark Trilogy Haden Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020705132837.0096b410@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you very much, Robin. I am really glad to hear from you and Lee Anne that the Ozark trilogy is good. There were a few comments on te list about Candis Dorsey's Paradigm being disappointing, so I was half preparing myself for a similar situation with Ozark. I felt a real pull to start it last night, but decided to read "Ammonite" first, as I am reading it for a book discussion. Am really enjoying it too, though I am not far into it. How long ago is it that you read the books (the Ozark trilogy) ? I am pleased I will have someone to discuss them with when I start reading them. Is it a... "true" trilogy, or more like a book in three parts? I mean- I never read the sequels to Native Tongue, so obviously it is a "real" trilogy, wheras, to me, Xenogenesis was more of a long book in three parts. Thanks for the feedback Maire > -----Original Message----- > From: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and > Utopia [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Robin Reid > Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2002 4:29 AM > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Ozark Trilogy Haden > > > At 12:12 PM 07/05/2002 +1000, you wrote: > >Dear all > >Just wanted to ask if anyone has heard and/or read these books... I > >bought them a couple of years ago when they were republished in > >omnibus. I read Native Tongue as an early teen and it had a big > influence > >on me, so I grabbed the Ozark books. Just wondering if anyone > had read them.. > >Maire > > I've read them, as I've read all Elgin's work, and absolutely adored > them! Different from NATIVE TONGUE, but showing Elgin's Ozark > culture in a > big way! Will be thrilled to talk about them on or off list! Robin > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 19:54:17 +1000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Maire Subject: Re: Ozark Trilogy Haden, plus various waffles Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020705185730.00a5cec0@www.leeanne.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Lee Anne, I am really glad that the books are good. I have not heard them mentioned at this list or anywhere else, you see. I havent read them yet, so i am not familiar with the names etc that you mentioned (Coyote Jones etc) but I am guessing that you are referring to different story lines within the actual books? Or is it another of her books? Is Yonder Comes the Other ENd of Time one of the books in teh trilogy, or is an additional book? Re your point about the sf about splitting off of distinct cultures- I have always found sf interesting, that explores that idea.. I guess one of the most common is the minority group given a planet to colonise, its *such* a common theme, and its interesting to read teh author's speculations on how such a start would influence a society's development- from Darkover, Irustan, Shora, etc. Also interesting to me, is how the characteristic of hte planet influence the society- ie a lack of heavy metals= low technology (ie Darkover) As you can tell, I have been reading some of MZB's Darkover books lately. I don't know what I will do when I am all through them- they are the only "fluff" I can really handle. Maybe I will get stuck into the Vorkosigan universe- I get put off by the male protagonist though- or would I get over that? I loved cordelia's Honour, for me it would be perfect if she was the protagonist of the whole series. Or will I "fall in love" with Miles? Maire > -----Original Message----- > From: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and > Utopia [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Lee Anne Phillips > Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2002 12:09 PM > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Ozark Trilogy Haden > > > You might also be interested in Yonder Comes the Other End of Time, > which brings together the Ozark story with the Coyote Jones storyline > for the first and only time. > > This general theme, the splitting off of distinct cultures from Earth has > been investigated by many authors, from Blish's Cities in Flight stories, > to Dickson's Splintered Cultures, to the execrable and tedious Herbert > and pseudo-Herbert Dune interminablia, to Smith's fascinating and > complex Instrumentality of Man stories. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 23:33:36 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Ozark Trilogy Haden, plus various waffles Comments: To: Feminist SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:54 PM 7/6/02 +1000, Maire wrote: >Thanks Lee Anne, I am really glad that the books are good. I have not heard >them mentioned at this list or anywhere else, you see. I havent read them >yet, so i am not familiar with the names etc that you mentioned (Coyote >Jones etc) but I am guessing that you are referring to different story >lines within the actual books? Or is it another of her books? Is Yonder >Comes the Other ENd of Time one of the books in teh trilogy, or is an >additional book? Coyote Jones is the male protagonist of another series, not really a trilogy, starting with Communipaths, continuing with Furthest, and then Star-Anchored, Star-Angered. He lives in the same universe as the Ozark people and certain "psi" abilities like telepathy are common to both storylines but they inhabit different planets. Coyote is mind-deaf, a disability in a world where everyday communication is often mental rather than aural. He has a compensating strength, the ability to project powerful mental illusions. On planet Ozark, telepathy is also common but they explore different ideas. The Communipaths series is sort of traditional "space opera" while the Ozarks trilogy, which is sort of a single book in three parts, examines an interesting interaction of good and evil where neither is really good or bad and the middle path is the best road. Yonder is a single novel in which the two storylines meet. It wasn't terribly successful in sales as it wound up pleasing no one, neither the fans of Coyote nor the (mostly female, I think) aficionados of Responsible, Troublesome, and Silverweb. Haden also wrote the Linguist series. Native Tongue, The Judas Rose, and Earthsong. >Re your point about the sf about splitting off of distinct cultures- I have >always found sf interesting, that explores that idea.. I guess one of the >most common is the minority group given a planet to colonise, its *such* a >common theme, and its interesting to read teh author's speculations on how >such a start would influence a society's development- from Darkover, >Irustan, Shora, etc. Also interesting to me, is how the characteristic of >hte planet influence the society- ie a lack of heavy metals= low technology >(ie Darkover) >As you can tell, I have been reading some of MZB's Darkover books lately. I >don't know what I will do when I am all through them- they are the only >"fluff" I can really handle. Maybe I will get stuck into the Vorkosigan >universe- I get put off by the male protagonist though- or would I get over >that? I loved cordelia's Honour, for me it would be perfect if she was the >protagonist of the whole series. Or will I "fall in love" with Miles? >Maire > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and > > Utopia [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Lee Anne Phillips > > Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2002 12:09 PM > > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Ozark Trilogy Haden > > > > > > You might also be interested in Yonder Comes the Other End of Time, > > which brings together the Ozark story with the Coyote Jones storyline > > for the first and only time. > > > > This general theme, the splitting off of distinct cultures from Earth has > > been investigated by many authors, from Blish's Cities in Flight stories, > > to Dickson's Splintered Cultures, to the execrable and tedious Herbert > > and pseudo-Herbert Dune interminablia, to Smith's fascinating and > > complex Instrumentality of Man stories. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:04:02 +1000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Maire Subject: Re: More waffles Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020706231033.00a140c0@www.leeanne.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lee Anne, thank you very much for all this information. I had not realised that Haden had written all these other books.. I know she did a lot of linguist work, and how lingusitics intersect with gender, but just had never heard about the other books you mentioned. Interesting you say Judas rose is the second- I actually read that one first... my mother got it for me from the femiinst bookshop when I was about.. 13? IIRC there was no mentoin that it was a sequel on the cover? (women's press edition- the one with the iron logo) Does anyone remember a book, also published by the women's press, called, I *think* the Silent City, or something similar? about a young girl who lives in a "dying" city, people seem to have some kind of mechanical "bodies" to inhabit after death.. all vague as I read it 15 or more years ago. I think that perhaps the young girl comes to the surface and meets the tribes on teh surface? I would like to hunt the book out and read it again, so I just wondered if that description rang a bell for anyone. I just got a few boxes of books out of storage. There were a few books in there that caught my eye, given I have just read Woman ON the Edge of TIme. Planet Dreams, by Michaela Carlock- its very similar to WOmon on Edge actually, except that the protagonist comes from the nightmare alternative reality. I think she attributes "Seth" with a lot of her inspiration, I *think* IIRC that he is someone who says he is channelling either an alien entity, or is it perhaps someone from the future? I can't remember. I also found "In the Heart of the Valley of Love" by Cynthia Kadohata, I havent read it yet except for the frist few chapters and I expect it to be very good. I think I discovered this book on the femsf web-site- has anyone read it? ANd then there is The Kin of Ata Are Waiting for You, which I havent read yet- has anyone? I love these "ecofeminist utopias" ... I also read a few years ago "Ecotopia". I guess that one of my favourite books of all time is "The Fifth Sacred Thing", it was also in the boxes so I can't wait to reread it for the BDG. I found it in a bargain bin, and was stunned with my good luck in finding it as I read it. Has anyone read Ammonite? I am finally reaing it at the moment- I am enjoying it. THere are a few flaws, things that stretch credulity, but I find I can ignore them for the sake of the author's message. I find the biofeedback etc very interesting. YOurs waffling, Maire > -----Original Message----- > From: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and > Utopia [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Lee Anne Phillips > Sent: Sunday, 7 July 2002 4:34 PM > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Ozark Trilogy Haden, plus various waffles > > > At 07:54 PM 7/6/02 +1000, Maire wrote: > >Thanks Lee Anne, I am really glad that the books are good. I > have not heard > >them mentioned at this list or anywhere else, you see. I havent read them > >yet, so i am not familiar with the names etc that you mentioned (Coyote > >Jones etc) but I am guessing that you are referring to different story > >lines within the actual books? Or is it another of her books? Is Yonder > >Comes the Other ENd of Time one of the books in teh trilogy, or is an > >additional book? > > Coyote Jones is the male protagonist of another series, not really a > trilogy, starting with Communipaths, continuing with Furthest, and > then Star-Anchored, Star-Angered. He lives in the same universe > as the Ozark people and certain "psi" abilities like telepathy are > common to both storylines but they inhabit different planets. > Coyote is mind-deaf, a disability in a world where everyday > communication is often mental rather than aural. He has a > compensating strength, the ability to project powerful mental > illusions. > > On planet Ozark, telepathy is also common but they explore > different ideas. The Communipaths series is sort of traditional > "space opera" while the Ozarks trilogy, which is sort of a > single book in three parts, examines an interesting interaction > of good and evil where neither is really good or bad and > the middle path is the best road. > > Yonder is a single novel in which the two storylines meet. It wasn't > terribly successful in sales as it wound up pleasing no one, neither > the fans of Coyote nor the (mostly female, I think) aficionados of > Responsible, Troublesome, and Silverweb. > > Haden also wrote the Linguist series. Native Tongue, The Judas Rose, > and Earthsong. > > >Re your point about the sf about splitting off of distinct > cultures- I have > >always found sf interesting, that explores that idea.. I guess one of the > >most common is the minority group given a planet to colonise, > its *such* a > >common theme, and its interesting to read teh author's > speculations on how > >such a start would influence a society's development- from Darkover, > >Irustan, Shora, etc. Also interesting to me, is how the characteristic of > >hte planet influence the society- ie a lack of heavy metals= low > technology > >(ie Darkover) > >As you can tell, I have been reading some of MZB's Darkover > books lately. I > >don't know what I will do when I am all through them- they are the only > >"fluff" I can really handle. Maybe I will get stuck into the Vorkosigan > >universe- I get put off by the male protagonist though- or would > I get over > >that? I loved cordelia's Honour, for me it would be perfect if > she was the > >protagonist of the whole series. Or will I "fall in love" with Miles? > >Maire > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and > > > Utopia [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Lee Anne Phillips > > > Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2002 12:09 PM > > > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > > > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Ozark Trilogy Haden > > > > > > > > > You might also be interested in Yonder Comes the Other End of Time, > > > which brings together the Ozark story with the Coyote Jones storyline > > > for the first and only time. > > > > > > This general theme, the splitting off of distinct cultures > from Earth has > > > been investigated by many authors, from Blish's Cities in > Flight stories, > > > to Dickson's Splintered Cultures, to the execrable and tedious Herbert > > > and pseudo-Herbert Dune interminablia, to Smith's fascinating and > > > complex Instrumentality of Man stories. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 09:02:43 -0400 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: More waffles Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi Maire, >Does anyone remember a book, also published by the women's press, called, I >*think* the Silent City, or something similar? about a young girl who lives >in a "dying" city, people seem to have some kind of mechanical "bodies" to >inhabit after death.. all vague as I read it 15 or more years ago. I think >that perhaps the young girl comes to the surface and meets the tribes on teh >surface? I would like to hunt the book out and read it again, so I just >wondered if that description rang a bell for anyone. *The Silent City* is by Elisabeth Vonarburg. I picked up a reprint of it at WISCON in 2001, where Vonarburg was one of the guests of honor. It is a prequel of sorts to her much thicker, really fascinating novel, *The Maerlande Chronicles* (aka *In the Mother's Land*). Elisabeth Vonarburg actually writes in French, and the books - at least the editions I have - are translated to English by Jane Brierly. If you've read *The Silent City*, it goes a long way toward explaining some of the mysteries of *Maerlande*, which is a book I really enjoyed, probably most specifically for its focus on learning and knowledge, and then also for the way she plays with the words,feminizing the whole language so that it is obvious that the society is primarily women centered, rather than male centered the way ours is. I just really liked the way the sheep are called *ovinas*, and children are *childreen* rather than children, etc. , so that the main character is puzzled when she goes to other parts of Maerlande and finds that not all of the languages spoken by her fellow Maerlander's reflect the female centric ideology. There were a couple of other books by her at WISCON also. Here's the website for her publisher in Montreal, Canada http://www.alire.com/ it's in French, and you can find the information about her by selecting the button auteurs from the side column and then her's is the last name on the list of writers they publish. Here's a list from Amazon US of books by her - they list many of them as unavailable, which is a pity, I think. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-5537865-6777451 >I just got a few boxes of books out of storage. There were a few books in >there that caught my eye, given I have just read Woman ON the Edge of TIme. >Planet Dreams, by Michaela Carlock- its very similar to WOmon on Edge >actually, except that the protagonist comes from the nightmare alternative >reality. I think she attributes "Seth" with a lot of her inspiration, I >*think* IIRC that he is someone who says he is channelling either an alien >entity, or is it perhaps someone from the future? I can't remember. I also >found "In the Heart of the Valley of Love" by Cynthia Kadohata, I havent >read it yet except for the frist few chapters and I expect it to be very >good. I think I discovered this book on the femsf web-site- has anyone read >it? ANd then there is The Kin of Ata Are Waiting for You, which I havent >read yet- has anyone? I think I have tried to read that one several times, I have 2 copies of it (by mistake) and can't seem to get into it (which happens very seldom for me) I thought the book was really irritating to start. It is however one of the ones that is invariably listed in bibliographies of books one ought to read or know of if one is doing studies in feminist science fiction. >I love these "ecofeminist utopias" ... I also read a few years ago >"Ecotopia". I guess that one of my favourite books of all time is "The Fifth >Sacred Thing", it was also in the boxes so I can't wait to reread it for the >BDG. I found it in a bargain bin, and was stunned with my good luck in >finding it as I read it. >Has anyone read Ammonite? I am finally reaing it at the moment- I am >enjoying it. THere are a few flaws, things that stretch credulity, but I >find I can ignore them for the sake of the author's message. I find the >biofeedback etc very interesting. I really enjoyed *Ammonite*, probably because of the biofeedback idea. I think that Nicola Griffith is a good writer. After I read *Ammonite*, I found *Slow River* and that was one I even managed to get my husband to read. It's different from *Ammonite*, though. I think I would say it was faster paced, almost more like the one by Neal Stephenson - *Zodiac*. Have you read the ones by Nancy Kress, *Beggars in Spain* etc? They are books that it is almost impossible to put down. They are not so much ecofeminist as biotech, which is one of my weaknesses in reading pleasure. Have you read Sherri Tepper's *The Family Tree*? Tepper is really enjoyable to read, I suppose as long as one agrees with her, because she would seem preachy if one didn't like her ideas. Rose -- 'As a woman I have no country. As a woman my country is the whole world.' Virginia Woolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 08:53:58 -0400 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Feministsf Subject: Re: More waffles Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu Comments: cc: mairen@BIGPOND.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU writes: >Does anyone remember a book, also published by the women's press, >called, I >*think* the Silent City, or something similar? about a young girl who >lives >in a "dying" city, people seem to have some kind of mechanical "bodies" to >inhabit after death.. all vague as I read it 15 or more years ago. I think >that perhaps the young girl comes to the surface and meets the tribes on >teh >surface? I would like to hunt the book out and read it again, so I just >wondered if that description rang a bell for anyone. The Silent city is by Elisabeth Vonarburg, a French Canadian author. It is followed up by The Maerlande Chronicles which was originally published as In the Mother's Land. I really enjoyed those two novels because it showed how the events and history of one civilization turned into the myths, religion and dogma of another. Kirsten ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 11:49:55 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: More waffles Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/7/02 7:11:16 AM Central Daylight Time, mairen@BIGPOND.COM writes: << ANd then there is The Kin of Ata Are Waiting for You, which I havent read yet- has anyone? >> Yes, some years back. An underground classic for years. Still available I think through either Ata Press (the authors press) or perhaps now through Feminist Press or the like. Once the transition is made into the alternate reality, the book is completely about (at least, as I remember) that and the transformation of the rapist who has stumbled into that reality. I really need to reread this book. The opening is hard for some, as it is rape from the rapists view, pretty vile stuff, but that's to show us the change that comes about. The opening was a bit controversial , perhaps still is .-Joy "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 11:59:42 -0400 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: More waffles Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >In a message dated 7/7/02 7:11:16 AM Central Daylight Time, >mairen@BIGPOND.COM writes: > ><< ANd then there is The Kin of Ata Are Waiting for You, which I havent read yet- has anyone? >> At 11:49 AM -0400 7/7/02, Joy Martin wrote: >Yes, some years back. An underground classic for years. Still available I >think through either Ata Press (the authors press) or perhaps now through >Feminist Press or the like. Once the transition is made into the alternate >reality, the book is completely about (at least, as I remember) that and the >transformation of the rapist who has stumbled into that reality. I really >need to reread this book. The opening is hard for some, as it is rape from >the rapists view, pretty vile stuff, but that's to show us the change that >comes about. The opening was a bit controversial , perhaps still is .-Joy That's interesting and I guess kind of sad for me... what I found was that the beginning was rather tedious. I didn't find it as upsetting that he raped the woman, as just that his thoughts and attitudes were really irritating and tedious. I don't think he was creepy enough, though that may be part of the point. He's rather ordinary, and thus might be *anyman*??? I think, because I have the 2 versions - one old, second hand, bought from a local bookshop because I recognized the name at the time, and one that was new, ordered on-line, that you are right about the author's Ata Press... Rose -- 'As a woman I have no country. As a woman my country is the whole world.' Virginia Woolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:12:47 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: More waffles Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/7/02 11:00:10 AM Central Daylight Time, rreith@RACORES.COM writes: << I don't think he was creepy enough, though that may be part of the point. He's rather ordinary, and thus might be *anyman*??? >> That sounds right to me,but I'd have to reread it. The ordinaryness of rapists is part of what's so creepy.-Joy "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:12:48 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: More waffles Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/7/02 11:00:10 AM Central Daylight Time, rreith@RACORES.COM writes: << you are right about the author's Ata Press... >> Almost all if not all of Dorothy Bryants books can be ordered through Ata Books, 1928 Stuart Street, Berkeley, CA 94703. One of the most amazing books I've ever read is her 'Confessions of Madam Psyche'.-Joy "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:28:28 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: More waffles Comments: To: Feminist SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:12 PM 7/7/02 -0400, Joy Martin wrote: >In a message dated 7/7/02 11:00:10 AM Central Daylight Time, >rreith@RACORES.COM writes: > ><< I don't think he was creepy enough, > though that may be part of the point. He's rather ordinary, and thus > might be *anyman*??? >> >That sounds right to me,but I'd have to reread it. The ordinaryness of >rapists is part of what's so creepy.-Joy But surely not surprising. From one quarter to one third of college males admit that they would rape a woman if they thought they could get away with it. If the question is posed in such a way that the word "rape" is not used but the man in the story winds up forcing the woman to have sex in a manner that would legally be described as rape, even if a weapon is used to force compliance, half of college men agree that they would do that. The percentages rise as educational level drops but, on average, from one half to two thirds of all men would rape a woman if they could get away with it. The likelihood that any us know more than a handful of men and do not also know a potential rapist is vanishingly small. A small majority of men don't even believe that raping a woman is all that wrong, but is justified if the woman has treated him "unfairly" (as self-assessed by himself) or has angered him. A larger majority of men are sexually aroused by depictions of rape, which explains why such depictions are common in the popular cinema as well as literature, and the denouement of the fictional rape is almost always the traditional male fantasy that the rape victim is grateful for her own sexual assault and has an orgasm during the act. The Kin of ATA is a dreary read in that it doesn't address reality, but floats along in this sort of dreamy denial of the fact of male misogyny and sexual aggression.