Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0208A" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:42:13 +1000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Maire Subject: Re: KIN OF ATA Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <122.13d0f6fe.2a5b7a56@cs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo. I have just started reading Ata, so I had a few comments about some of the posts that people made a few weeks ago. first- ok, I am only on page 30, but as far as I can tell, the people of Ata absolutely are not dark-skinned. Rather, they are a total racial mix- blue-eyes blondes with the oriental eyes, woman with black skin and caucasion features plus blue eyes, etc etc.. narrator says that they are a racial blend he can't quite identify " medium height and build, and all, of course, sun tan or brown. Thier feautres form a medium composite: eyes neither narrow nor round, noses neither flat nor pointed, lips neither full nor thin. Their hair varied from teh lightes and finest to the darkest or coarsest. But a large minority of them had startling combinations of physical traits, like the black woman with the nordic features, or the golden-haired boy with oriental eyes" pp 19. Also... a few people said that the book opens with a rape scene... am on page 30 and still havent got to it? It does open with a *violent* scene- narrator and a woman are in a bed, she very angry saying "I am a person" she attacks him and he strangles her... narrator saying things like "her dugs hung in my face like those of some obscene animal" so obviously his sentiments are degrading- however it is not a rape scene. Is there a rape scene coming up now the protag is in Ata? On a different tack- couple of things I have been ruminating over- somebody was discussing that old survey wehre college men were asked whether they would rape a woman if they knew they could get away with it. (I think the survey is pretty bogus btw). The poster said that the number of men who said "yes, they would" increased as education levels went down. This is contrary to everything I have ever heard, , as far as I know that particular survey had no cross check with education, tehy were all college men. But I think that generally, what people are trying to stress, is that rape/ domestic violence and so on, are not linked to education, socio-economic status etc, and occurs in teh same ratios across the socio-economic strata. Have to admit I find the assertion that the lower the educatino of a man, teh more liekly he is to say yes to that question a little off. Maire > -----Original Message----- > From: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and > Utopia [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Joy Martin > Sent: Tuesday, 9 July 2002 9:29 AM > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] KIN OF ATA > > > In a message dated 7/8/02 10:38:10 AM Central Daylight Time, > Robin_Reid@TAMU-COMMERCE.EDU writes: > > << extent to which the "minority" culture (weren't the people in > the culture > dark-skinned?) was there to "redeem" the white guy....I found the racial > politics unsettling (as has been pointed out about some aspects of > seventies feminist rhetoric -- the extent to which "slavery" of African > American was used as a "metaphor" for white women's oppression, etc.). >> > > Well, it's hard to address this since it's been so long since > I've read it. I > don't know if you mean the Ata culture is symbolic of a > 'minority' culture, > since as far as the book goes, the inhabitants of Ata are the majority in > their world. It's largely because they are, and hold the power of that > reality, that they are able to insist that the man who arrives from 'our > world' change. Without getting too bent out of shape about it. As I recall > (and as I say, memory is a bit hazy ), that was one of the > interesting things > - these people didn't put a great deal of energy into this guy, other than > not tolerating his bad behavior, and he ended up changing because > of facing > the totally different set of priorities and beliefs he encountered. So, if > memory serves, I'd say what Bryant is positing is, what happens > if a man, a > sexist pig, even, gets plopped down into the middle of a culture which is > totally egalitarian and doesn't even give a damn about all the dichotomies > etc in his mind. Is such a person able to change, even if they > start from a > misogynist childhood, etc? Or, not so much asking, can they, but > showing how > it might happen.. This is a bit different from positing how to get to a > future where a whole misogynist culture is changed. It's a > different question > and it's worth thinking about, like almost everything Bryant > writes. And I > think it is a challenge to read, because usually Bryant doesn't fit any > particular line, she just tells her story as it is most truthful > to tell it. > Having said that, it may be that if I'd reread it, I'd be saying something > different. But personally, I think it's probably a good thing that people > find this book 'irritating'. -Joy > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little > temporary safety > deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 19:25:43 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: KIN OF ATA Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/1/02 8:50:57 AM Central Daylight Time, mairen@BIGPOND.COM writes: << Is there a rape scene coming up now the protag is in Ata? >> There is a rape later, but I think I said it opened with a rape scene, and that was my faulty memory of 30 years or so ago when I first read the book, conflating with the later scene in the book.-Joy "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:57:39 -0400 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Dave Belden Subject: Re: BDG Schedule Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <20020701200446.CNRH25741.priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net@[161.184.49.201]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit August 5th - my task to start off discussion about Starhawk's The Fifth Sacred Thing. These discussions run at different levels of critique, and I hope it goes without saying (but I'll say it anyway) that every contribution is needed to make up the whole, whether 'intellectual' or 'personal,' long or short. One of many things I learned from feminist practice was that confident voices may intimidate the unconfident, and ways have to be found to counteract that - by skilful chairing of meetings, or giving everyone a chance for a turn, or whatever. I'm not sure what the available methods are on a listserve like this, other than discussion moderators/instigators saying that there is no bar one has to jump in order to post here. I personally would like to hear in very simple terms what people made of this book, as well as hearing critiques from the more confident voices. Was it inspirational? Puzzling? A good read? Boring? Which characters did you like best? Is it ahead of its time, or swamped by 1980's enthusiasms? Just pen us a note. 1) Inspirational? I liked that Rachel wrote about Marge Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time (WOTEOT) that it had been personally inspirational for her. I am wondering if the same is true for anyone with Starhawk's novel. I find it inspirational myself to some extent, but I will answer my own questions another time. I love this novel, but it also puzzles me, and the questions I have about it include: 2) Are we to take the healing that Madrone and others, especially the Melissa, do, for real? Not just the healing, but all the work with energies: the programming of crystals in computers, the long distance communication through dreams, the breaking of electrical security circuits through mind power alone etc. How much does Starhawk believe that she is describing present reality and/or realistic possibility, and how much is she delving into fantasy? Is this a science fiction novel, in the form of a pagan-informed physics/chemistry/biology, or a fantasy? E.g. is the Melissa's work an equivalent to the cyborg experiments in the last novel we read, Piercy's He, She and It, in the sense of a science fictional extrapolation of current trends, or is it more something the fairy queen might get up to in War of the Oaks (a book we did last year)? If you think it's intended as the former (science fiction) by the author, do you agree that it's possible (or at least as possible as Piercy's cyborg?) In other words, is magic, in the real world, actually a branch of science (or vice versa)? 3) Apart from that aspect (the pagan, spiritual, energy-working, magical) what differences do you see between Starhawk's feminist utopian vision, and Piercy's? Is there a basic, similar feminist vision at work here? Or does the magic in Starhawk's vision turn it into an altogether different thing? 4) Related question: what difference do you see between Starhawk's dystopic fears about the future and Piercy's? Or have we strayed more into Margaret Atwood (Handmaid's Tale) territory here? Did you understand how the corporations, the Stewards and the millennialists interacted, and who was who, who was boss? Did you find this at all believable as a scenario for the 2020s? 5) Another way of asking these last two questions is: you know that Starhawk had to have read Piercy, and surely Bryant's Kin of Ata (as Dorothy Bryant lives in the Bay Area and is well know there), and Margaret Atwood, and I don't doubt Ursula Le Guin (not just the Dispossessed, but Always Coming Home, which is set in the Bay Area - both Le Guin and Starhawk have a strong feeling for the landscape of their home area). What is Starhawk saying to these writers? That's enough to get us started. Happy reading, Dave Accord, NY davebelden@earthlink.net web page: www.davidbelden.com > -----Original Message----- > From: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and > Utopia [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Angela Barclay > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 9:17 AM > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Schedule > > > Apologies BDG members: > > It is my job to post reminders of upcoming book discussions and I > failed to > do so in regards to this month's selection, Marge Piercy's _He, > She and It_, > which we were to have begun discussing today. > > The other works in this round are as follows: > > >August 5 -- The Fifth Sacred Thing, by Starhawk > >September 2 -- The Annunciate, by Severna Park > >October 7 -- The Books of Great Alta, by Jane Yolen > > When I went to replace my lost copy of _White Jenna_, the second > installation in The Books of Great Alta, I discovered that it is out of > print (here in Canada). I also discovered that _The One-Armed > Queen_ (1998) > is considered to be part of the Great Alta saga. I have only > ever seen the > books published separately- are they combined in _The Books of > Great Alta_? > If so, does the combined version include _The One-Armed Queen_? > Lastly, are > we going to discuss the third installation if it is not included in a > combined work? > > Angela, on behalf of the BDG committee > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:44:37 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG: Fifth Sacred Thing Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Thanks for the great intro, Dave. It is important to encourage discussion at all levels. I like to read the intellectual comments, but they also intimidate me. I loved this book. I lived for years in San Francisco, and it changed how I saw the city. Common landmarks like Strawberry Hill were never the same again. In that way, I compare it to The City Not Long After, a fabulous book by Pat Murphy. I don't recall exactly (I read FST years ago), but I think she got one thing wrong -- referring to 7th Avenue instead of 7th Street at one point, but other than that, it was very believable in the setting at least. I also liked the contrast with the dystopian description of the future LA suburbs. I have no idea if the "magic" was physically possible but I really liked the idea of using power from crystals. It did seem much more like fantasy than SF to me, but that's perhaps because I know too much about how computers work today. Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:14:42 +0100 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Angela Barclay Subject: Re: BDG: Fifth Sacred Thing Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Like Jennifer I want to thank Dave for his unique and warm welcome to the discussion and to say I also LOVED this book. I received it about 7 years ago as a gift from my most "New Age" friend and devoured it in about a day and a half. I remember having to go for a long walk afterwards to ground myself in reality. What most stuck in my mind after that first frenzied reading was how disturbed I was by the Angels and how intrigued with the collective consciousness of the bee women and the wise women who meditated upon peace and wellbeing from their island. This time around Starhawk's strong characters really impressed me- they were fascinating and flawed like real people. I found Bird's story to be especially powerful and sad and loved that the older characters were depicted as fully sexual beings. _The Fifth Sacred Thing_ doesn't remind me of Piercy's dystopia but more of Tepper's _Gate to Women's County_ (the trek into the badlands and the religious fanatacism), Severna Park's _Hand of Prophecy_ (her awesome description of setting and genetically enhanced fighters) and Angela Carter's _Heroes and Villains_ (the monsters). I really appreciate having been exposed to Piercy's work and would now list her as being one of my favorite authors, but in comparison to Starhawk's smoothly flowing story find _He, She and It_ to have a researched, slightly stilted quality to it. (Although not as obviously researched as I found Mary Gentle's _A Secret History: The Book of Ash I_). Cheers, Angela ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:21:10 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Edie Bell Subject: Re: BDG: Fifth Sacred Thing Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <20020806190207.HLLW14925.priv-edtnes04.telusplanet.net@[16 1.184.55.97]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_275615424==_.ALT" --=====================_275615424==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bear in mind it has been years since I have read this book, and that is because the ending completely angered me. I found it utterly hypocritical that the utopians (I can't remember what they called themselves) would work so strongly at non-violent resistance but they would let their new "converts" violently battle the invading forces to save their homeland. How can one say that they are truly committed to a peaceful revolution when they have their own militia, willing to kill and die for their cause? That was such a glaring issue for me that it tainted the rest of the book. --=====================_275615424==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Bear in mind it has been years since I have read this book, and that is because the ending completely angered me.  I found it utterly hypocritical that the utopians (I can't remember what they called themselves) would work so strongly at non-violent resistance but they would let their new "converts" violently battle the invading forces to save their homeland.   How can one say that they are truly committed to a peaceful revolution when they have their own militia, willing to kill and die for their cause?

That was such a glaring issue for me that it tainted the rest of the book.

 --=====================_275615424==_.ALT-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 01:35:28 +0200 Reply-To: divadiane9@compuserve.de Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Diane Severson Subject: Re: BDG Schedule Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: Hi Dave (and all list members), Thanks for the encouragement in your discussion kick-off! I'm one of those members who, when she has time to read the book is often more of a passive participant because I don't feel like I have much of interest to contribute. I never studied literature, I just love to read! I am interested in and thoroughly enjoy what the others have to say and I often which I could participate more actively. I'm glad to know that we can also just prattle on about somewhat more superficial aspects of a given book! Unfortunately, I haven't read the book yet and I don't know if I will get to it before the end of the month. It sounds like a subject matter, which is right up my alley, so I might make it a reading priority. I will give some thought! Diane On 5 Aug 2002, at 9:57, Dave Belden wrote: > August 5th - my task to start off discussion about Starhawk's The > Fifth Sacred Thing. > > These discussions run at different levels of critique, and I hope it > goes without saying (but I'll say it anyway) that every contribution > is needed to make up the whole, whether 'intellectual' or 'personal,' > long or short. One of many things I learned from feminist practice was > that confident voices may intimidate the unconfident, and ways have to > be found to counteract that - by skilful chairing of meetings, or > giving everyone a chance for a turn, or whatever. I'm not sure what > the available methods are on a listserve like this, other than > discussion moderators/instigators saying that there is no bar one has > to jump in order to post here. I personally would like to hear in very > simple terms what people made of this book, as well as hearing > critiques from the more confident voices. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 21:40:42 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Lou Hoffman Subject: Re: BDG Schedule Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_34.2b4c78fc.2a81d49a_boundary" --part1_34.2b4c78fc.2a81d49a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I personally would like to hear in very simple terms what people made of this book, as well as hearing critiques from the more confident voices. Hi Dave and thanks for the warm welcome. While I find intellectual, academic critiques interesting, I don't contribute to them. I would like to hear personal comments as well. I read FST when it was first published, having read Starhawk's other books prior to that. I've read it several times over the years. At first I was enthralled by the utopian view of San Francisco and the strong women characters, but this last time I was more caught up in Bird's story. His internal integrity coupled with his self doubts, a good man driven to chose between evils, I felt that made him a believable character. I had problems with Madrone, for all her abilities, she needed a keeper! > > 2) Are we to take the healing that Madrone and others, especially the > Melissa, do, for real? Not just the healing, but all the work with > energies: > the programming of crystals in computers, the long distance communication > through dreams, the breaking of electrical security circuits through mind > power alone etc. How much does Starhawk believe that she is describing > present reality and/or realistic possibility, and how much is she delving > into fantasy? Is this a science fiction novel, in the form of a > pagan-informed physics/chemistry/biology, or a fantasy? > A little of both. If you believe in psi skills now, this would seem a simple advancement of skills already present. If you don't, it would be fantasy. So it depends where you are coming from. As for what Starhawk believes, you would have to ask her. Not all pagans believe in all psi skills. I took the 'magical' stuff with a grain or three of salt. Many utopias and distopias posit a major reality shift, a swift ecological collapse, WWIII, a meteor strike. I don't think of change like this, I think it's more likely there will be a number of changes over a longer period of time. So I find 2020 to be far too soon for there to be this much change. Anybody? Lou --part1_34.2b4c78fc.2a81d49a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I personally
would like to hear in very simple terms what people made of this book, as
well as hearing critiques from the more confident voices.

Hi Dave and thanks for the warm welcome. While I find intellectual, academic critiques interesting, I don't contribute to them. I would like to hear personal comments as well.

I read FST when it was first published, having read Starhawk's other books prior to that. I've read it several times over the years. At first I was enthralled by the utopian view of San Francisco and the strong women characters, but this last time I was more caught up in Bird's story. His internal integrity coupled with his self doubts, a good man driven to chose between evils, I felt that made him a believable character. I had problems with Madrone, for all her abilities, she needed a keeper!

2) Are we to take the healing that Madrone and others, especially the
Melissa, do, for real? Not just the healing, but all the work with energies:
the programming of crystals in computers, the long distance communication
through dreams, the breaking of electrical security circuits through mind
power alone etc. How much does Starhawk believe that she is describing
present reality and/or realistic possibility, and how much is she delving
into fantasy? Is this a science fiction novel, in the form of a
pagan-informed physics/chemistry/biology, or a fantasy?

A little of both. If you believe in psi skills now, this would seem a simple advancement of skills already present. If you don't, it would be fantasy. So it depends where you are coming from. As for what Starhawk believes, you would have to ask her. Not all pagans believe in all psi skills.
I took the 'magical' stuff with a grain or three of salt.

Many utopias and distopias posit a major reality shift, a swift ecological collapse, WWIII, a meteor strike. I don't think of change like this, I think it's more likely there will be a number of changes over a longer period of time. So I find 2020 to be far too soon for there to be this much change.

Anybody?

Lou   --part1_34.2b4c78fc.2a81d49a_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 18:37:45 +1000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Maire Subject: Re: BDG Schedule Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <34.2b4c78fc.2a81d49a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00EC_01C23E41.85D4B020" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00EC_01C23E41.85D4B020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I have not yet reread FST, though I plan to, for this disc. I bought this book after seeing it in the bargain bins. The author was unknown to me (not widely distributed in AUs, to say the least, and I had never heard it mentioned on-line at this or any other list at that time) I read it, not expecting a great deal. It really blew me away. It was the first book of its type I had read... that kind of eco-feminist thing, and it really had a big effect on me, probably one of the most influential books for me I have ever read. I have never been to San Fransisco, but, as others have said, this book made it come alive to me, like a familiar haunt. I suppose it is a sort of.. longing, t hat made the book so great for me. Because I wish taht the revolution that happened in the book, would happen in real life. I suppose for me, the book has two aspects... 1. the exploration of that type of life, built on the foundations of our existing culture (I loved the vegetable gardens at the front of each townhouse for example). And so on. 2. the actual story. I think I would have been quite happy had the author simply written a "how to" book, ... how to create and maintain an eco-feminist utopia! I will have to rerea the book to make more specific comments on teh story. What did people think of the healing etc? the spiritual healing etc? (can't remember what its called in book). I guess it, for me, that detracted a little cause I could no longer "see" the society actually happening, as I don't really belive in the mental healing etc ... Maire -----Original Message----- From: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Lou Hoffman Sent: Wednesday, 7 August 2002 11:41 AM To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Schedule I personally would like to hear in very simple terms what people made of this book, as well as hearing critiques from the more confident voices. Hi Dave and thanks for the warm welcome. While I find intellectual, academic critiques interesting, I don't contribute to them. I would like to hear personal comments as well. I read FST when it was first published, having read Starhawk's other books prior to that. I've read it several times over the years. At first I was enthralled by the utopian view of San Francisco and the strong women characters, but this last time I was more caught up in Bird's story. His internal integrity coupled with his self doubts, a good man driven to chose between evils, I felt that made him a believable character. I had problems with Madrone, for all her abilities, she needed a keeper! 2) Are we to take the healing that Madrone and others, especially the Melissa, do, for real? Not just the healing, but all the work with energies: the programming of crystals in computers, the long distance communication through dreams, the breaking of electrical security circuits through mind power alone etc. How much does Starhawk believe that she is describing present reality and/or realistic possibility, and how much is she delving into fantasy? Is this a science fiction novel, in the form of a pagan-informed physics/chemistry/biology, or a fantasy? A little of both. If you believe in psi skills now, this would seem a simple advancement of skills already present. If you don't, it would be fantasy. So it depends where you are coming from. As for what Starhawk believes, you would have to ask her. Not all pagans believe in all psi skills. I took the 'magical' stuff with a grain or three of salt. Many utopias and distopias posit a major reality shift, a swift ecological collapse, WWIII, a meteor strike. I don't think of change like this, I think it's more likely there will be a number of changes over a longer period of time. So I find 2020 to be far too soon for there to be this much change. Anybody? Lou ------=_NextPart_000_00EC_01C23E41.85D4B020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 all
I = have not yet=20 reread FST, though I plan to, for this disc.  I bought this book = after=20 seeing it in the bargain bins. The author was unknown to me (not widely=20 distributed in AUs, to say the least, and I had never heard it mentioned = on-line=20 at this or any other list at that time) I read it, not expecting a great = deal.  It really blew me away. It was the first book of its type I = had=20 read... that kind of eco-feminist thing, and it really had a big effect = on me,=20 probably one of the most influential books for me I have ever = read.  I have=20 never been to San Fransisco, but, as others have said, this book made it = come=20 alive to me, like a familiar haunt.  I suppose it is a sort of.. = longing, t=20 hat made the book so great for me.  Because I wish taht the = revolution that=20 happened in the book, would happen in real life.  I suppose for me, = the=20 book has two aspects... 1. the exploration of that type of life, built = on the=20 foundations of our existing culture (I loved the vegetable gardens at = the front=20 of each townhouse for example).  And so on. 2. the actual = story.  I=20 think I would have been quite happy had the author simply written a "how = to"=20 book, ... how to create and maintain an eco-feminist utopia! I will have = to=20 rerea the book to make more specific comments on teh story.  What = did=20 people think of the healing etc? the spiritual healing etc? (can't = remember what=20 its called in book).  I guess it, for me, that detracted a little = cause I=20 could no longer "see" the society actually happening, as I don't really = belive=20 in the mental healing etc ...
Maire
-----Original Message-----
From: friendly STRICTLY = ON TOPIC=20 discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia=20 [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Lou = Hoffman
Sent:=20 Wednesday, 7 August 2002 11:41 AM
To:=20 FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU
Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG=20 Schedule

I personally
would like = to hear in=20 very simple terms what people made of this book, as
well as hearing = critiques from the more confident voices.

Hi Dave and thanks for the warm welcome. = While I=20 find intellectual, academic critiques interesting, I don't contribute = to them.=20 I would like to hear personal comments as well.

I read FST when = it was=20 first published, having read Starhawk's other books prior to that. = I've read=20 it several times over the years. At first I was enthralled by the = utopian view=20 of San Francisco and the strong women characters, but this last time I = was=20 more caught up in Bird's story. His internal integrity coupled with = his self=20 doubts, a good man driven to chose between evils, I felt that made him = a=20 believable character. I had problems with Madrone, for all her = abilities, she=20 needed a keeper!

2) Are we to take the healing that Madrone and = others,=20 especially the
Melissa, do, for real? Not just the healing, but = all the=20 work with energies:
the programming of crystals in computers, the = long=20 distance communication
through dreams, the breaking of electrical = security circuits through mind
power alone etc. How much does = Starhawk=20 believe that she is describing
present reality and/or realistic=20 possibility, and how much is she delving
into fantasy? Is this a = science=20 fiction novel, in the form of a
pagan-informed = physics/chemistry/biology,=20 or a fantasy?

A little=20 of both. If you believe in psi skills now, this would seem a simple=20 advancement of skills already present. If you don't, it would be = fantasy. So=20 it depends where you are coming from. As for what Starhawk believes, = you would=20 have to ask her. Not all pagans believe in all psi skills.
I took = the=20 'magical' stuff with a grain or three of salt.

Many utopias and = distopias posit a major reality shift, a swift ecological collapse, = WWIII, a=20 meteor strike. I don't think of change like this, I think it's more = likely=20 there will be a number of changes over a longer period of time. So I = find 2020=20 to be far too soon for there to be this much change.=20

Anybody?

Lou  =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00EC_01C23E41.85D4B020-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:39:23 +0100 Reply-To: "donna.fancourt" Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: "donna.fancourt" Subject: Re: BDG the Fifth Sacred Thing Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I'm so pleased this book has finally got onto the BDG, it kept being nominated for discussion, but hasn't got in until now. I loved this book when I read it a few years ago, and thought it was a wonderful example of new feminist utopian thinking - developing 70s feminist utopian thought for the 90s, introducing a New-Agey, Witchy eco-spiritual dimension, which I thought was fascinating and very suggestive. Unlike some utopias it also has a strong narrative and the plot drives the story forward, and it's easy to get lost in the plot and not take the time to absorb the utopian background, so it definitely demands several readings. I think one of the central things I liked about the book, is that although it's all about magic and spirituality and fantasy, it's all real in the sense that Starhawk practices everything she talks about in the novel. If you read any of her other books - Dreaming in the Dark, The Spiral Dance etc - which are all 'how to' books on witchcraft and feminist spirituality, you can see that she fully believes in the feminist spiritual future that she writes about in The Fifth Sacred Thing. I do actually think that the types of healing described in the novel are possible, the raising of energies, the telepathy, the communication through dreams, mind control - why not? I think the possibilities of the human mind and body are not yet known, and anyone who has practised yoga, or meditated or dabbled in alternative therapies knows the immense possibilities of the body for healing. I think the novel is a projection of Starhawk's fantasy of what her utopian future would look like, thus the book is fantasy/sci-fi, but also an example of what she and her community is doing in San Francisco, on a smaller scale. I have been dying to read an interview with Starhawk about the novel, but haven't come across anything yet, about what feminist utopian fiction she has read, and how she relates her novel to others in the field. I think it fits in very well, and I thought it might be particularly significant that there is a character called Consuelo (one of Connie's names in Woman on the Edge of Time) giving birth to a daughter in the opening pages of the novel. Although she dies in childbirth, I like to think that this is Starhawk bringing Connie into utopia, giving birth to her daughter in utopia, as she wanted to. In response to Lou's question about whether change will be sudden or slow, I think, like her, it is more likely to be slow and steady, a gradual move into utopia or dystopia. While for plot's sake the sudden apocalypse makes good drama, I think it's more likely that the seeds of change that we plant now will bear fruits in the future, which is why this novel, and Piercy's, and many other utopias, advocates change in the present, in the now, instead of waiting for the big revolution. I am going to see Starhawk in a seminar in London in a few weeks time (very excited about it!) and I hope to be able to ask her some questions about the book. If I get any answers, I'll share them with you. all the best, Donna ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:14:46 -0400 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Dave Belden Subject: Re: BDG the Fifth Sacred Thing Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu In-Reply-To: <017a01c23dfe$b45ee2a0$9b7168d5@vaio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree, it is a great strength of this book, that it is not written by an armchair dreamer, but by a practical dreamer, who has filled her life with developing these practices. From reading her other books, it is clear she has spent much time and energy developing non-violent means of resistance, she has been to jail for it, as well as of course being a leading creator of the modern Goddess rituals and movement. This grounds the novel, provides solid take-off points for her flights of fancy. I would guess from the novel (but I don't know and wouldn't care to ask) that she has been involved in what we used to call multiple relationships, and now seems to be called polyamory, just because that is so central to her characters; and although a very rosy view is presented of such relationships, all the same, they seem to be just within the realistic side of rosy. I personally hate most meetings, having been in too many, but actually enjoy her descriptions of meetings, because they seem real. If you find commentary by her on the novel, or can ask her questions about it, please pass them on. One thing I like about the book, is that the real focus of the story turns out to be non-violent resistance. A fantasist telling a good yarn could so easily have used the energy stuff to provide some kind of solution against the invading army: just as the Stewards spread viruses in the North, the rebels could have introduced electronic viruses carried by bees or something into every piece of electric equipment in the stewards' economy and military and ground it all to a halt. But Starhawk has a much more real and important story to tell, about nonviolent resistance. I am only two thirds through on my reread, so can't comment yet on Edie's disappointment with the ending. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and > Utopia [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of donna.fancourt > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 6:39 AM > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG the Fifth Sacred Thing > > > Hi, > > I'm so pleased this book has finally got onto the BDG, it kept being > nominated for discussion, but hasn't got in until now. I loved this book > when I read it a few years ago, and thought it was a wonderful example of > new feminist utopian thinking - developing 70s feminist utopian > thought for > the 90s, introducing a New-Agey, Witchy eco-spiritual dimension, which I > thought was fascinating and very suggestive. Unlike some utopias it also > has a strong narrative and the plot drives the story forward, and > it's easy > to get lost in the plot and not take the time to absorb the utopian > background, so it definitely demands several readings. I think one of the > central things I liked about the book, is that although it's all > about magic > and spirituality and fantasy, it's all real in the sense that Starhawk > practices everything she talks about in the novel. If you read any of her > other books - Dreaming in the Dark, The Spiral Dance etc - which are all > 'how to' books on witchcraft and feminist spirituality, you can > see that she > fully believes in the feminist spiritual future that she writes > about in The > Fifth Sacred Thing. I do actually think that the types of > healing described > in the novel are possible, the raising of energies, the telepathy, the > communication through dreams, mind control - why not? I think the > possibilities of the human mind and body are not yet known, and anyone who > has practised yoga, or meditated or dabbled in alternative therapies knows > the immense possibilities of the body for healing. I think the novel is a > projection of Starhawk's fantasy of what her utopian future would > look like, > thus the book is fantasy/sci-fi, but also an example of what she and her > community is doing in San Francisco, on a smaller scale. I have > been dying > to read an interview with Starhawk about the novel, but haven't > come across > anything yet, about what feminist utopian fiction she has read, > and how she > relates her novel to others in the field. I think it fits in > very well, and > I thought it might be particularly significant that there is a character > called Consuelo (one of Connie's names in Woman on the Edge of > Time) giving > birth to a daughter in the opening pages of the novel. Although > she dies in > childbirth, I like to think that this is Starhawk bringing Connie into > utopia, giving birth to her daughter in utopia, as she wanted to. In > response to Lou's question about whether change will be sudden or slow, I > think, like her, it is more likely to be slow and steady, a gradual move > into utopia or dystopia. While for plot's sake the sudden > apocalypse makes > good drama, I think it's more likely that the seeds of change > that we plant > now will bear fruits in the future, which is why this novel, and Piercy's, > and many other utopias, advocates change in the present, in the > now, instead > of waiting for the big revolution. > I am going to see Starhawk in a seminar in London in a few weeks > time (very > excited about it!) and I hope to be able to ask her some > questions about the > book. If I get any answers, I'll share them with you. > > all the best, > Donna >