Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG0210D" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:08:01 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Caroline Schuster Subject: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello! I am a feminist studied major at Stanford University currently enrolled in a course entitled "Girls on Film: Cultural Studies in Third Wave Feminism." I ran across this list while doing research for a paper on Pricess Leia and the Fiction of Gender, Science, and New Worls (a mouth-full!). Not only am I thrilled to have a chance to interact with you, I was also hoping to pick your brains on the subject of women, technology, and media portrayals. It seems to me that contemporary science fiction is terribly ambivalent about women in science--our bodies seem to be the subject of a great deal of research, but a great deal of that occurs without any agency on our part and to the end of constructing gender in a potentially dangerous way. I would love to know what you think on the matter. Thanks a bunch! Carly Schuster p.s.: I might use some responses in my research, but mostly I am very much interested in what you think about the issue. Thanks again! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:58:20 -0500 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Carly. Your research sounds intriguing! I was wondering if yo had any particular questions you would like to talk about. There is such a huge range of science fiction nowadays, it is hard to know where to start. :-) Automatic digest processor wrote: > > Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:08:01 -0700 > From: Caroline Schuster > Subject: Gender, Myth and Star Wars > > Hello! > > I am a feminist studied major at Stanford University currently > enrolled in a course entitled "Girls on Film: Cultural Studies in > Third Wave Feminism." I ran across this list while doing research > for a paper on Pricess Leia and the Fiction of Gender, Science, > and New Worls (a mouth-full!). Not only am I thrilled to have a > chance to interact with you, I was also hoping to pick your brains > on the subject of women, technology, and media portrayals. It > seems to me that contemporary science fiction is terribly > ambivalent about women in science--our bodies seem to be the > subject of a great deal of research, but a great deal of that occurs > without any agency on our part and to the end of constructing > gender in a potentially dangerous way. I would love to know what > you think on the matter. > > Thanks a bunch! > Carly Schuster > > p.s.: I might use some responses in my research, but mostly I am > very much interested in what you think about the issue. Thanks > again! -- Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:13:52 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: asaro@sff.net, FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <3DB850DA.1767@sff.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I say that you should look into watching alll 5 seasons of Babylon 5 if you want to see an SF show with females that are smart and empowered. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine is also another one I'd highly recommend for strong female role models. I have found far better female role models on TV than on film. Buffy the Vampire Slayer rocks!?! Lyla --- Catherine Asaro wrote: > Hi, Carly. Your research sounds intriguing! I was > wondering if yo had > any particular questions you would like to talk > about. There is such a > huge range of science fiction nowadays, it is hard > to know where to > start. :-) > > Automatic digest processor wrote: > > > > Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:08:01 -0700 > > From: Caroline Schuster > > Subject: Gender, Myth and Star Wars > > > > Hello! > > > > I am a feminist studied major at Stanford > University currently > > enrolled in a course entitled "Girls on Film: > Cultural Studies in > > Third Wave Feminism." I ran across this list > while doing research > > for a paper on Pricess Leia and the Fiction of > Gender, Science, > > and New Worls (a mouth-full!). Not only am I > thrilled to have a > > chance to interact with you, I was also hoping to > pick your brains > > on the subject of women, technology, and media > portrayals. It > > seems to me that contemporary science fiction is > terribly > > ambivalent about women in science--our bodies seem > to be the > > subject of a great deal of research, but a great > deal of that occurs > > without any agency on our part and to the end of > constructing > > gender in a potentially dangerous way. I would > love to know what > > you think on the matter. > > > > Thanks a bunch! > > Carly Schuster > > > > p.s.: I might use some responses in my research, > but mostly I am > > very much interested in what you think about the > issue. Thanks > > again! > > -- > Best regards > Catherine Asaro > http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:48:54 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: Feminist SF/F Lit In-Reply-To: <20021024191352.71942.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Babylon 5 was also interesting in that a gay man played the role of the supposedly heterosexual hero. It was fantasy on several levels. At 12:13 PM 10/24/2002 -0700, Lyla Miklos wrote: >I say that you should look into watching alll 5 >seasons of Babylon 5 if you want to see an SF show >with females that are smart and empowered. Star Trek: >Deep Space Nine is also another one I'd highly >recommend for strong female role models. > >I have found far better female role models on TV than >on film. Buffy the Vampire Slayer rocks!?! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:53:58 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: Lee Anne Phillips Comments: cc: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LeeAnn, Are you talking about Jason Carter's character? I can't believe I can't remember his name! Didn't know he was gay. Very sad, by the way, that he is now doing car commercials. He;s a wonderful actor, and very pretty on-screen. Double the irony if so, since Ivanova was supposed to be gay or bi herself, except for TNT's meddling. ---- Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:48:54 -0700 >From: Lee Anne Phillips >Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Gender, Myth and Star Wars >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > >Babylon 5 was also interesting in that a gay >man played the role of the supposedly >heterosexual hero. It was fantasy on several >levels. > >At 12:13 PM 10/24/2002 -0700, Lyla Miklos wrote: >>I say that you should look into watching alll 5 >>seasons of Babylon 5 if you want to see an SF show >>with females that are smart and empowered. Star Trek: >>Deep Space Nine is also another one I'd highly >>recommend for strong female role models. >> >>I have found far better female role models on TV than >>on film. Buffy the Vampire Slayer rocks!?! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:10:34 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Freddie Baer Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU, ruthleon@UIUC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Um, Jason Carter is married. Mind you, that shouldn't make a difference, = but I don't think that's who Lee Anne is referencing. I also love Farscape for its depiction of strong women characters. FB >>> Rudy Leon - 10/24/02 1:53 PM >>> LeeAnn, Are you talking about Jason Carter's character? I can't believe I can't remember his name! Didn't know he was gay. Very sad, by the way, that he is now doing car commercials. He;s a wonderful actor, and very pretty on-screen. Double the irony if so, since Ivanova was supposed to be gay or bi herself, except for TNT's meddling. ---- Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:48:54 -0700 >From: Lee Anne Phillips >Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Gender, Myth and Star Wars >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > >Babylon 5 was also interesting in that a gay >man played the role of the supposedly >heterosexual hero. It was fantasy on several >levels. > >At 12:13 PM 10/24/2002 -0700, Lyla Miklos wrote: >>I say that you should look into watching alll 5 >>seasons of Babylon 5 if you want to see an SF show >>with females that are smart and empowered. Star Trek: >>Deep Space Nine is also another one I'd highly >>recommend for strong female role models. >> >>I have found far better female role models on TV than >>on film. Buffy the Vampire Slayer rocks!?! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:13:12 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Rudy Leon Subject: mea culpa! (head bowed) Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Comments: cc: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm so sorry! I thought that went only to LeeAnne! ---- Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:53:58 -0500 >From: Rudy Leon >Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Gender, Myth and Star Wars >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > >LeeAnn, >Are you talking about Jason Carter's character? I can't >believe I can't remember his name! Didn't know he was gay. >Very sad, by the way, that he is now doing car commercials. >He;s a wonderful actor, and very pretty on-screen. > >Double the irony if so, since Ivanova was supposed to be gay >or bi herself, except for TNT's meddling. > > >---- Original message ---- >>Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:48:54 -0700 >>From: Lee Anne Phillips >>Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Gender, Myth and Star Wars >>To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU >> >>Babylon 5 was also interesting in that a gay >>man played the role of the supposedly >>heterosexual hero. It was fantasy on several >>levels. >> >>At 12:13 PM 10/24/2002 -0700, Lyla Miklos wrote: >>>I say that you should look into watching alll 5 >>>seasons of Babylon 5 if you want to see an SF show >>>with females that are smart and empowered. Star Trek: >>>Deep Space Nine is also another one I'd highly >>>recommend for strong female role models. >>> >>>I have found far better female role models on TV than >>>on film. Buffy the Vampire Slayer rocks!?! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:15:28 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Rudy Leon Subject: Anne Bishop Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since I owe an on-Topic post, and Daughter of the Blood is not going to be a BDG book, has anyone read it? I really want to discuss this book, it was so deliberately provocative in the way the world was built, and the strengths and weaknesses of the characters were so compelling. Any takers? Rudy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:12:04 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_17c.10c1ad74.2ae9d844_boundary" --part1_17c.10c1ad74.2ae9d844_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/24/2002 3:14:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, lylamiklos@YAHOO.COM writes: > > I have found far better female role models on TV than > on film. Buffy the Vampire Slayer rocks!?! > > Lyla > Yes film does seem depressing weak. Even in Star Wars, in the first three movies you only really have Leia. In I and II, you do have Padme and her handmaidens who do fight as well as female jedi. But the focus is still primarily male. That is the men seem to take on the really big bad guys. And Star Trek, outside of DS:9 isn't much better. In TNG you had women in the tradtional comfort roles. In Enterprise you do have a female as second in command but she wears a cat suit and the communications officer is female. Voyager did have a female captain but I always thought she was more feeling then a captain should be. That is, she always wanted to over analyze everything. Earth 2 had good female characters but that got canceled after a year. chris --part1_17c.10c1ad74.2ae9d844_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/24/2002 3:14:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, lylamiklos@YAHOO.COM writes:



I have found far better female role models on TV than
on film. Buffy the Vampire Slayer rocks!?!

Lyla


Yes film does seem depressing weak.  Even in Star Wars, in the first three movies you only really have Leia.  In I and II, you do have Padme and her handmaidens who do fight as well as female jedi.  But the focus is still primarily male.  That is the men seem to take on the really big bad guys.
       And Star Trek, outside of DS:9 isn't much better.  In TNG you had women in the tradtional comfort roles.  In Enterprise you do have a female as second in command but she wears a cat suit and the communications officer is female.  Voyager did have a female captain but I always thought she was more feeling then a captain should be.  That is, she always wanted to over analyze everything.
       Earth 2 had good female characters but that got canceled after a year.

chris --part1_17c.10c1ad74.2ae9d844_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:14:09 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_a8.13fb9bbb.2ae9d8c1_boundary" --part1_a8.13fb9bbb.2ae9d8c1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/24/2002 5:11:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, fbaer@WESTED.ORG writes: > I also love Farscape for its depiction of strong women characters. > > FB > Yes! Even Jewel was strong. But Sci-Fi is axing it. Chris --part1_a8.13fb9bbb.2ae9d8c1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/24/2002 5:11:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, fbaer@WESTED.ORG writes:


I also love Farscape for its depiction of strong women characters.

FB


Yes!  Even Jewel was strong. But Sci-Fi is axing it.

Chris --part1_a8.13fb9bbb.2ae9d8c1_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:14:21 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: Feminist SF/F Lit In-Reply-To: <200210242053.ACG24434@express.cites.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:53 PM 10/24/2002 -0500, Rudy Leon wrote: >LeeAnn, >Are you talking about Jason Carter's character? I can't >believe I can't remember his name! Didn't know he was gay. >Very sad, by the way, that he is now doing car commercials. >He;s a wonderful actor, and very pretty on-screen. > >Double the irony if so, since Ivanova was supposed to be gay >or bi herself, except for TNT's meddling. Jason Carter played Marcus Cole, and was paired with Richard Biggs as Dr. Stephen Franklin in one episode in which they pretend to be a married couple on a visit to Mars. Babylon 5 was revolutionary in its day for the extent to which gay and lesbian characters were shown as well integrated into the societies depicted in the series, unlike the cowardly crew over at the Star Trek franchise, who quailed in horror even when the plot demanded a more thoughtful approach. Ivanova was a lesbian, whose main squeeze was Talia Winters except for the fact that Talia had *issues* that included subconscious mental commands placed in her brain by aliens. I've had several girlfriends with the same minor flaw. Bruce Boxleitner played John J. Sheridan, the boss of the place. He is married, as I understand it, but then the same can be said of many, and is very outspoken about being a man's man and not a sissy boy. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:15:49 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Anne Bishop Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_104.1e130e9b.2ae9d925_boundary" --part1_104.1e130e9b.2ae9d925_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/24/2002 5:16:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, ruthleon@UIUC.EDU writes: > Since I owe an on-Topic post, and Daughter of the Blood is > not going to be a BDG book, has anyone read it? I really want > to discuss this book, it was so deliberately provocative in > the way the world was built, and the strengths and weaknesses > of the characters were so compelling. > > Any takers? > > Rudy > Got the book. I'll read it after I'm finish re-reading Intersting Times by Pratchett (which I'm almost done). Do you belong to the other list? Since it isn't on the reading list perhaps the discussion would be better there? Chris --part1_104.1e130e9b.2ae9d925_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/24/2002 5:16:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, ruthleon@UIUC.EDU writes:


Since I owe an on-Topic post, and Daughter of the Blood is
not going to be a BDG book, has anyone read it? I really want
to discuss this book, it was so deliberately provocative in
the way the world was built, and the strengths and weaknesses
of the characters were so compelling.

Any takers?

Rudy


Got the book.  I'll read it after I'm finish re-reading Intersting Times by Pratchett (which I'm almost done).  Do you belong to the other list?  Since it isn't on the reading list perhaps the discussion would be better there?

Chris --part1_104.1e130e9b.2ae9d925_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 18:21:42 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Anne Bishop Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This list isn't only for the BDG -- it's limited only to on-topic discussions of any of the various types of feminist SF. So we can talk here. I'm hoping to get aroudn to reading the second book in the next week or so.... ---- Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:15:49 EDT >From: Christine Ethier >Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Anne Bishop >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > > In a message dated 10/24/2002 5:16:26 PM Eastern > Standard Time, ruthleon@UIUC.EDU writes: > > Since I owe an on-Topic post, and Daughter of the > Blood is > not going to be a BDG book, has anyone read it? I > really want > to discuss this book, it was so deliberately > provocative in > the way the world was built, and the strengths and > weaknesses > of the characters were so compelling. > > Any takers? > > Rudy > > Got the book. I'll read it after I'm finish > re-reading Intersting Times by Pratchett (which I'm > almost done). Do you belong to the other list? > Since it isn't on the reading list perhaps the > discussion would be better there? > > Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:24:21 -0400 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Anne Bishop Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <104.1e130e9b.2ae9d925@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:15 PM 10/24/2002 -0400, Christine Ethier wrote: >Got the book. I'll read it after I'm finish re-reading Intersting Times by >Pratchett (which I'm almost done). Do you belong to the other list? Since >it isn't on the reading list perhaps the discussion would be better there? Not at all! The scheduled book discussion takes place on this list, but it was never intended to supercede other on-topic discussion. An exchange about *Daughter of the Blood* sounds perfectly on-topic (and interesting) to me. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://therem.net/ Listening to: Coldplay -- A Rush of Blood to the Head "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:15:51 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Caroline Schuster Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: asaro@sff.net, FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <3DB850DA.1767@sff.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hiya! I picked Star Wars because it is a great excuse to spend a bunch of time with her royal highness and get credit for my troubles : ) I 100% agree that the film is quite problematic, and would be fascinated to discuss how the decidedly un-feminist aspects interact with Leia's kick-butt character. I think that I am going to focus especially on the connection between fans and the film...i.e. how fans 'poach' the narrative and interact with it in a community setting. I love the fact that the universe has kinda developed a life of its own with the help of all of the super-fans that appropriate it and reformulate it. I think that the intersection of that sense of community with this great feminist role model is absolutely fascinating! gracias! Carly p.s.: Farscape rules! Wheeeeee! At 02:58 PM 10/24/2002 -0500, Catherine Asaro wrote: >Hi, Carly. Your research sounds intriguing! I was wondering if yo had >any particular questions you would like to talk about. There is such a >huge range of science fiction nowadays, it is hard to know where to >start. :-) > >Automatic digest processor wrote: > > > > Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:08:01 -0700 > > From: Caroline Schuster > > Subject: Gender, Myth and Star Wars > > > > Hello! > > > > I am a feminist studied major at Stanford University currently > > enrolled in a course entitled "Girls on Film: Cultural Studies in > > Third Wave Feminism." I ran across this list while doing research > > for a paper on Pricess Leia and the Fiction of Gender, Science, > > and New Worls (a mouth-full!). Not only am I thrilled to have a > > chance to interact with you, I was also hoping to pick your brains > > on the subject of women, technology, and media portrayals. It > > seems to me that contemporary science fiction is terribly > > ambivalent about women in science--our bodies seem to be the > > subject of a great deal of research, but a great deal of that occurs > > without any agency on our part and to the end of constructing > > gender in a potentially dangerous way. I would love to know what > > you think on the matter. > > > > Thanks a bunch! > > Carly Schuster > > > > p.s.: I might use some responses in my research, but mostly I am > > very much interested in what you think about the issue. Thanks > > again! > >-- >Best regards >Catherine Asaro >http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:49:16 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Pamela Taylor Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Carly, everyone Since I'm new here, let me start with an intro. I'm Pamela and I live in Indianapolis, and am a sci-fi writer. Consider myself and my writing to be feminist and I'm very interested in discussing feminist sci-fi. Carly, I think Leia's need to be rescued by the knight in shining white armor is an obvious sell-out to fairy tale mentality. Yeah, she kicks butt, but still, she has to be saved. Plus as the series goes along, it seems like she plays less and less of a role as a fighter and more and more as an administrator/love interest for Han Solo. Her character recedes as Luke's advances until she is hardly anything more than a prop, needing, yet again, to be rescued, this time from Jabba the Hut. It's really a sell out of her potential as Luke's twin. In the first movie she's able to hold out against the truth serum -- this implies that she has some special nature just as Luke does. Why is this never developed? As far as fandom goes, I'm not very much into the spin off books, etc. But it seems to me very clear that the vast majority focus on the male characters. There's a whole series on Han Solo, various ones about Luke, even a series about the kids of Han Solo and Leia, but none on her that I can recall. Why is that? Perhaps because her character was never really developed to its potential? Perhaps because the market forces determined that males are what we expect to see in sci-fi? Or that the book were being read by teenage boys? Would teenage girls read about how Leia grew up to be so fiesty? I bet they would. As far as other films, how about the Alien series? Sigorney Weaver's character is pretty awesome. Although she is very asexual. It seems to me that there is a tendency to either make women overly feminine, and rather helpless, or, if they are very strong, to de-emphasize their feminity to the point that you say, what's the difference between this character and a man? What about the character and her behavior makes it clear she's a woman? Weaver's character is precisely the kind I'm talking about -- does her character act in anyway that is particularly feminine? Going back after the cat, perhaps? Perhaps some exceptions to this is the mother in the Terminator movies and the girl in the Matrix. I am horrible with names, so you'll have to forgive me. Finally (I will shut up sometime!) you mention about women's bodies being studied without any agency on our parts and that resulting in some dangerous trends with regards to gender. I'm not sure how this relates to Star Wars, but it seems to apply elsewhere. I'm sure it's not by accident that the alien DNA got injected into a female embryo in She. (I think that was the name of the movie; all about how the girl grows up really fast and then tries to mate, and usually ends up killing her mate, spines growing out of her back as they copulate.) I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that theme. Pamela _________________________________________________________________ Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband. Join now! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:41:57 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/24/02 9:59:29 PM Central Daylight Time, momtotsan@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << Weaver's character is precisely the kind I'm talking about -- does her character act in anyway that is particularly feminine? Going back after the cat, perhaps? >> Also RIpley's relation with the little girl: she's a mother surrogate to her. However, I don't know that being 'particularly feminine' or focusing on the 'femaleness' of the character is what makes something feminist. Rather extending the definition of what women can do,w hich I think Ripley does quite a bit, even if sexuality isn't much of a part of it. Back to the particularly 'female' stuff though: then there's the cloned version of Ripley in the third film, who is also 'mother' to the alien/human mix. And her relationship to the character Winona Ryder played, in fact a created/robot (oh, I'm forgetting the right word here too), where they were kind of sisterly. In fact, lots of interesting mother /daughter stuff going on in the Alien series. For example, the battle with the alien mother in the first film. Then the alien mother kills the little girl in the beginning of the second film. And then of course, in the third film, Weaver's clone becomes the mother of the very sad monstrous combo human/alien. Then there's the pure heroism of the selfsacrificial mode, where Ripley swandives into the molten vat (2nd film) rather than allow the alien bursting out of her to survive. Selfsacrifice yes, but in the grand tradition of saving humanity, putting the greater good before self . If I recall, not because of her choice at that exact moment (because by the time the alien is exiting her body, she's dead anyway) , but because of all her decisions leading up to that moment, when she refused to allow them to harvest the alien from her, for the greedy purposes of the corporation or whoever that was trying to bring the alien or alien DNA back to Earth. Ripley was/is definitely one heck of a character, from a feminist point of view, and it's at least as interesting that she's standing for all humanity and earth, which is usually the male prerogative. The last film though takes that through some more twists, so that we are talking about clones and various definitions of humanity and alienness.What is human, what is monster? and so forth (harkening back to the sad humanity of monsters begun with Frankenstein). Although the movie had some real problems, esp. in some of its scifi aspects, there was a whole kettle of questions and subtexts and the like that made up for its faults, IMO. By the time Ripley gets back to Earth, exactly what will be human and what alien and who will be protecting whom? Curious about how they'll deal with all that, if there is another movie. -Joy "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:02:30 +1000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Deborah Biancotti Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Pamela said: >I think Leia's need to be rescued by the knight in shining white armor is >an obvious sell-out to fairy tale mentality. Yeah, she kicks butt, but >still,she has to be saved. (snip)< Agreed!! In Star Wars, she was a soldier. Forthright, & even angry. But look at how she gets treated as a kind of petulant child by the movie's main masculine character (by which I mean Han, not Luke, who is more a giddy kid than the picture of swaggering arrogance George Lucas seems to enjoy.) >As far as other films, how about the Alien series? Sigorney Weaver's character is pretty awesome. Although she is very asexual. It seems to methat there is a tendency to either make women overly feminine, and rather helpless, or, if they are very strong, to de-emphasize their feminity to the point that you say, what's the difference between this character and a man? What about the character and her behavior makes it clear she's a woman? Weaver's character is precisely the kind I'm talking about -- does her character act in anyway that is particularly feminine? (snip)< There's that classic line in one of the films where a man asks Ripley, "Have you ever been mistaken for a man?" (Good point, I thought.) And then she answers him, "No. Have you?" What is the comment on masculinity & strength there, eh? Particularly interesting would be a dissection of the mother imagery in the last (I think) alien movie, where the new Ripley finds out she was used as a carrier for the alien. The final scene where she carries out the act of 'infanticide', right after looking deeply into the eyes of her alien baby, was an interesting piece of symbolism. (And what a strange paradox, the mother of the alien, allowed to live by her murderous progeny, then murders it in turn. Creator & created, swapping roles. Very Frankenstein.) I'm sure I've read somewhere the claim that the alien movies are fundamentally a birth fear reaction - the thing that erupts from your body against your will. Etc, etc. Earth 2 (which somebody else has mentioned) was also an excellent source of strong female roles, with the captain & the main medic being women - but without the characters simply appearing to be a kind of simplistic men-but-with-breasts presentation (ie. lacking anything that made them appear to be convincing women characters). Plus that show had the first really convincing fight between women I'd seen. Deborah Hope this all makes sense, I have a cold! _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:45:31 +1000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Aislinn?= Subject: Re: Anne Bishop Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <200210242115.ACG25600@express.cites.uiuc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Rudy, I've read the trilogy. Very compelling and addictive! I was fortunate that I started reading Daughter of the Blood after all three books were published, otherwise I would have become quite demented with impatience :-) The most enthralling part was the humanity and humour in her characters. Also was intrigued by her use of dysfunctional family relationships and the Jewel ranking system. Some friends who've read it complained to me of the apparant over-the-top-ness of it all, especially in the choice of names for certain characters (Daemon, Heketah etc). Obviously personal taste comes into it, but for me (a devotee of writers such as Tanith Lee and Angela Carter) the whole thing actually worked and the plot held together perfectly -- a heady dose of clever and fun writing. Aislinn --- Rudy Leon wrote: > Since I owe an on-Topic post, and Daughter of the > Blood is > not going to be a BDG book, has anyone read it? I > really want > to discuss this book, it was so deliberately > provocative in > the way the world was built, and the strengths and > weaknesses > of the characters were so compelling. > > Any takers? > > Rudy http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers - 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:12:22 -0400 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: "Deborah A. Oosterhouse" Organization: DAO Editorial Services Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Deborah Biancotti wrote: > Pamela said: > >I think Leia's need to be rescued by the knight in shining white armor is > >an obvious sell-out to fairy tale mentality. Yeah, she kicks butt, but > >still,she has to be saved. (snip)< > > Agreed!! In Star Wars, she was a soldier. Forthright, & even angry. But look > at how she gets treated as a kind of petulant child by the movie's main > masculine character (by which I mean Han, not Luke, who is more a giddy kid > than the picture of swaggering arrogance George Lucas seems to enjoy.) I've always looked at Han's initial treatment of Leia as another opportunity for her to show her strength. He and Luke are running around without any clear idea of what they're doing and manage to break her out more by dumb luck than anything else. Han *tries* to treat Leia likes she's a petulant child, but she won't have any of it and makes clear that she's in charge because she knows what she's doing and they don't. And it's also another sign of Han's growth as a person -- from s completely self-serving mercenary to someone willing to work with others in support of a *noble cause* -- that he is at first irritated and threatened by Leia's strength but eventually comes to love her because of it. > There's that classic line in one of the films where a man asks Ripley, "Have > you ever been mistaken for a man?" (Good point, I thought.) And then she > answers him, "No. Have you?" What is the comment on masculinity & strength > there, eh? Actually, that line was spoken to the female marine in the second film. Wasn't she the only female among the marines? Rather an interesting contrast to Ripley's character, I think, in that she is far more into the "masculine" culture of the marines with the strong body-consciousness and the love for big guns. Deborah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:54:40 -0400 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: "Deborah A. Oosterhouse" Organization: DAO Editorial Services Subject: Re: Anne Bishop Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've also read Anne Bishop's trilogy on Jaenelle/Witch and was absolutely enthralled. There were times that I actually became very uncomfortable by how compelling I found them because of some of the extreme violence that took place, but I just couldn't put them down. I had to wait a *whole week* to get the third book of the trilogy because my local library had to get it on loan from another one. One thing I'd like to mention is that after reading the first book, the writing seemed very familiar. According to Bishop's bio, she had contributed to Ellen Datlow and Terri Windling's collections of modern fairy tale rewrites and I realized Anne Bishop had also written the marvelous version of *Little Match Girl* (in *Ruby Slippers, Golden Tears*) that also illicited this same response of "This is a very disturbing story, but it's wonderful." I think the thing I liked most about the trilogy as a whole is Bishop's excellent portrayal of Jaenelle as a girl who has all of this incredible power, but is still a young girl (in the first book) who is trying to grow up into some semblance of a *normal* human being (as far as that is possible). She has parents and a grandmother who don't understand her at all and who have a great deal of power over her, to the point of being able to send her to the "hospital" for "treatment". She also has a beloved sister that she is unwilling to abandon until that sister grows into her own power and is able to fend for herself. In the later books, Jaenelle moves through adolescence into adulthood and is very well portrayed as a girl growing up and learning how to deal with becoming an adult, sometimes in ways that are very different from any other girl's experiences because of her immense power, but sometimes in way that are much the same. Another thing that I found most compelling about the books was the balance between the men and women of the Power and how that balance was twisted and broken because of distrust and jealousy between many of the men and women. Only the women can reach the true heights of power (which is more a matter of birth ability and potential than any work and study on the part of those with power), but this is offset by the fact that women's power is far more fragile at the point of changing from birth power to adult power (I can't remember exactly what this is called). A woman can be denied her full adult power and remain only at the level she was born with if she is the victim of a violent first sexual experience; such an experience can also leave her insane. (I think there was only one example of a woman who was raped as a child on the streets, but managed both to retain her sanity and to achieve her full power.) The problems that occur in the books started back in the history of the books when women became fearful/jealous of those men who were stronger than they were and sought to bring them under control, and men became fearful/jealous of the greater power that women could attain and sought to prevent them from reaching it. There were also certain females of lesser power who worked with the men to prevent other women from attaining their full power so that there would be fewer (and perhaps, ultimately, no) women who were stronger than they were. I had a definite sense throughout the books that if there were more cooperation and trust between people -- accepting others for who they are rather than being fearful of their greater power or contemptuous of their lesser power -- many of the problems they were dealing with wouldn't exist. I think that's probably enough for now, but I'm interested to see what others who have read the books have to say. Deborah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 23:40:01 +1000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <109.1ac8ae46.2aea1785@cs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:41 PM 24/10/02 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 10/24/02 9:59:29 PM Central Daylight Time, >momtotsan@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > ><< Weaver's character is precisely the kind I'm talking about -- does her > character act in anyway that is particularly feminine? Going back after the > cat, perhaps? >> I think that the only way it is acceptable for a woman to be that aggressive and to wield that much power is by adding that maternal element, that concept of "archaic mother", with righteous fury in defence of her young - and making Ripley a nurturing woman who cares about cats, children and interestingly enough - other secondary female characters. In one film, there are no secondary female characters, but I do recall Vasquez, the Hispanic woman 'space-marine' - but it was impossible for Vasquez to survive, she wasn't 'feminine' enough - stereotyped butch, but Ripley is more upset by Vasquez's death, than the other marines. The book on which the first film was very loosely based, also mentions that Ripley had a 7-yr-old daughter, but also that when she returns to earth decades later, the 'Company' doctors tell her that she had a daughter and granddaughter who had both died leaving no further descendants. Ripley doesn't believe them, and spends some years searching for descendants and finally finding out they were not only dead, but had been killed by the 'Company' - its also interesting that the nickname for the all-powerful, all-controlling Company was "Mother". This was parallelled in the films, when the Alien "mother" kills her adopted daughter Newt, and her sister/daughter figure Valquez. The four Alien films, are so rich with symbolism, they can be viewed on many different levels simultaneously. One level, is the basic male anxiety fantasy, with regard to rape and being impregnated against their will. A male hero being raped/impregnated would be an ultimate outrage. But by making the hero a woman, however tomboyish, diminishes that somewhat. There's also the abortion symbolism, in the final film Ripley is made to stay pregnant with the alien hybrid, against her will - she is also resurrected by cloning against her own choice. She chose in the 3rd film, not to bear the alien hybrid, she chose to sacrifice herself in the vat to kill herself and the offspring, rather than bear it. But even that choice was taken away from her. By positing her fury against the 'alien/other mother', we are distracted from the significant role played by the earth authorities. Ripley is often powerless against the human males who continually manipulate and control her. On yet another level, Ripley (and the Alien female) constantly reinforce the symbolism and mythology of women personifying Nature, animalistic, defending her young, the tigress/hurricane. All that slimy, warm, dripping womb imagery - Womb/Tomb dichotomy. I was reminded of what it must be like to live in Jean Paul Sartre's mind:) In the 4th film, there is also her relationship with the Winona Rider character, a cyborg - as with Valquez, her concern is far more with the younger woman, in a maternal/sisterly way. When I saw the 4th film, I also re-watched the first 3 in succession - and noticed that there was an obvious time-difference of 20 odd years between 1st and last - Sigourney Weaver has aged - and I was wondering if Winona had been introduced in the 4th film, as a kind of "successor".... I guess we'll have to wait and see for the next episode:) - Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:40:06 +1000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:49 PM 24/10/02 -0500, Pamela wrote: >I think Leia's need to be rescued by the knight in shining white armor is an >obvious sell-out to fairy tale mentality. Yeah, she kicks butt, but still, >she has to be saved. Plus as the series goes along, it seems like she plays >less and less of a role as a fighter and more and more as an >administrator/love interest for Han Solo. Hi Pamela - Methinx this is a common theme, its been raised here on-list before. One example is Anne McCaffrey's heroines - in the beginning, they kick butt, they wield power within their cultures, but eventually - love is far more important (and heterosexual love) than power anyway, and they give it all up and just keel over. In McCaffrey's books, its often quite violently so - where the man has to slap her into line, and she loves every minute of it. But as a teenage girl, I adored these sorts of books. At that time, they were the only example of women doing anything, even if it was only for that brief time before the hero walked in and the woman is deliriously ecstatic to take second, or lower, place. Star Wars is similar, in that it is pitched to the teenage/young adult audience. A similar thing happened with Babylon 5 - the character of Delenn, the Membari woman drove me to finally stop watching it altogether. The classic scenario - she is an incredibly powerful woman, of one of the most powerful species in the galaxy, a member of the inner circle of their governing council etc - but what does she do? She gives it all up for love, she even changes her body to human. When she started snivelling over waving goodbye to precious John one episode, I switched off Ivanova was stereotyped as a Russian dyke, which was also disappointing. In Star Trek, for some unknown reason, I keep watching hoping for better next season. I liked the character of Bllana Torres in Voyager, a feisty woman, but she lost points by taking up with Tom Paris, and 7-of-9 was a classic 'body' introduced for the adolescent male audience to lift ratings. My favourite has always been DS9 - not only for a better presentation of women characters, but the script-writing, the plot lines, the acting etc - were all much better than any other of the ST series. But then methinx American sci-fi has always been more sexist and formulaic than say British/European. The women characters in Blake's 7 for example, made in the early 80s, appeared decades ahead of ST. Even the female off-siders of Dr Who in the 60s were spirited and had independence. Emma Peel in the original Avengers also comes to mind. I also have mixed feelings towards whether the positioning of women as action heroines is positive or negative. But I don't think just having women kicking butt isn't necessarily a feminist statement, if its just a simple reversal as in BruceWillis-with-boobs etc. As for the Matrix, I think the woman's name was Trinity. But there was so much symbolism in that film too - tho' I saw it mostly as an allegory of the Jesus story, with Trinity as Mary Magdalene. He was called "The One" (ie the Saviour) - he was not of woman born (like all good legendary saviours) - he was betrayed from within his circle of 'apostles' by a Judas character - wandering in the desert/matrix etc - demonstrating the power of faith - sacrificed himself and was reborn etc. Cheers - -Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:24:56 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Pamela Taylor Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi all, This has been a very intersting discussion! I am so glad I found y'all! It seems to me that the feminist vision requires not only a revamping of traditional feminine roles but also of traditional masculine roles. In a lot of sci-fi/fantasy the vision of masculinity is so hyper-male that it becomes difficult for the female character to reconcile her need for love and a mate with her drive for indepenence and strength. Thus you find the female characters who start out strong and independent and who end up throwing it all away for love. Or throwing away love for career (loosely defined career). Why can't they find a mate who accepts them as they are -- who supports and encourages their search for power, and personal, intellectual and career fulfillment, etc? This is something I explore in my own writing, and which I find lacking in a lot of books, and even more so in tv/film. (Have to admit, I don't watch a lot of tv, but I do go to the movies.) There was a recent movie about Mars (exploring the face, and finding extraterrestrial roots for humanity) which featured a couple who appeared to be fairly stable in this manner, although the man dies very early on in the movie. What a shame that the dynamic wasn't explored more! Of course, having these kinds of faults doesn't keep us from enjoying them. But you do wish you could find more books that show a vision of balanced humanity. Pamela Pamela _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:30:31 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Pamela Taylor Subject: Re: The Visitor Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi all, I love Tepper, she's one of my favorite authors, but her message does get in the way in a lot of her books. I though Singer from the Sea was especially flawed in this manner. The scenario was excellent, but in the end I found it unbelievable that the entire society of noble men would conspire to the degree that they did just to attain a few more decades of life. Surely there would have been some who rejected it. The Fresco was also a little heavy handed. Loved Plague of Angels and Six Moon Dance. Can't wait to read The Visitor. Pamela Pamela _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:03:31 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars At 09:49 PM 10/24/2002 -0500, Pamela Taylor wrote: >As far as other films, how about the Alien series? Sigorney Weaver's >character is pretty awesome. Although she is very asexual. It seems to me >that there is a tendency to either make women overly feminine, and rather >helpless, or, if they are very strong, to de-emphasize their feminity to >the point that you say, what's the difference between this character and a >man? What about the character and her behavior makes it clear she's a >woman? Weaver's character is precisely the kind I'm talking about -- does >her character act in anyway that is particularly feminine? Going back >after the cat, perhaps? This whole idea of "a man in woman's clothing" is such a gray area to me. On the one hand, it is discouraging to see female characters empowered only by taking on macho postures -- as if that is the only alternative most filmmakers or writers see to being a 50s housewife or a disposable sex object. On the other hand, when critics dismiss a woman character as being a "man with boobs" simply because she is strong and physically assertive, I get antsy. This criticism seems to assume that certain behaviors are mapped eternally to feminine and masculine gender roles and that any crossover is indicative of a desire to play the other role entire. That may occasionally be the case, but most often I don't think it's so. Ripley, for example, is in no way a man in disguise. She wasn't conceived that way, and she doesn't come across that way (at least to me) in any of the films except, perhaps, the last one. In the first movie, Ripley doesn't kick ass and isn't a hero. She's just a little smarter and luckier than the rest of the crew of her ship. And don't forget sexy -- there's a fairly lengthy sequence near the end of the movie in which Ripley, clad only in miniscule underwear, has to creep across a room towards a protective space suit, trying to avoid the attention of the nearly dormant alien. Very reminiscent of the role of a helpless woman in a "slasher" movie -- except that she defeats the villain. In the second movie, she's much more heroic, but again, not in a way that I see as "male" -- unless we're talking "Vietnam vet with PTSD". And as a couple people have mentioned, there is the whole subplot of Ripley's maternal feelings toward Newt, which in the director's cut are more explicitly linked to Ripley's discovery that her daughter died at an advanced age while Ripley was drifting through space in hypersleep. The Battle of the Moms theme that develops toward the end of the film is a little overdone for my taste (particularly Ripley's line to the alien queen: "Get away from her, you bitch!"), but I'm not sure it should be seen as a statement that females will only fight to protect their young. After all, Ripley agreed to go on the mission before she knew there would be a daughter-figure to protect, and she was explicit from the beginning that she wanted the aliens eradicated, not brought back for study. In that she is betrayed by "the man", the Corporate employer personified by the weaselly Burke. The movie's take on gender is very interesting, actually, as it portrays a variety of male and female roles. Burke and Ripley and to an extent the lieutenant in charge of the mission are at first portrayed as weaker and more effete than the rough-and-tumble grunts. But it soon becomes clear that someone's macho or lack of it is immaterial to their chances of survival. The young girl Newt is the only survivor of the colony because she is adept at hiding. The one guy who survives (seriously injured) is himself a pretty straight-ahead strongman, but he's emotionally secure enough to be able to appreciate Ripley's strength and smarts. And Ripley is a damaged, reluctant protector of humanity whose decency *could* be tied to her femaleness -- her horror at Burke's plan to smuggle aliens back to Earth by implanting them in herself and Newt is at least as much a horror of the "ends justifies the means" thought process of the heartless and male-coded Corporation as it is fear for her own life -- but it is debatable. Truly an interesting film, and one of my favorites. I have never seen the third movie all the way through, and I thought the fourth was a terrible mess, but I have enjoyed others' comments on them. There's much fodder for discussion there. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://therem.net/ Listening to: Coldplay -- A Rush of Blood to the Head "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:19:13 -0400 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Dave Belden Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of my favorite female characters in science fiction was the woman (I forget her name, it's told in first person) in Memoirs of a Spacewoman, by Naomi Mitchison, 1962. I think she may qualify for Pamela's quest for: > Why can't they find a mate who accepts them as they are -- who > supports and encourages their search for power, and personal, intellectual > and career fulfillment, etc? with the problem that because she is always off traveling at lightspeed, she can never synchronize her life with a lover long enough to have a long relationship, but then that symbolizes her choice to live her life for herself and her work and to have such lovers as are compatible with that. There are also erotic elements in her relationships with alien species - she's a specialist on alien contact. Have I recalled that right? It's 30 years since I read it. I don't even know if there's a current edition. Dave ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:45:59 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: Feminist SF/F Lit In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:19 PM 10/25/2002 -0400, Dave Belden wrote: >There are also erotic elements in her relationships with alien species - >she's a specialist on alien contact. Have I recalled that right? It's 30 Mary. Yes. The author was a perfectly fascinating woman. She was republished by The Women's Press in the UK (1985) but I don't know whether their backlist still includes her book. Memoirs of a Spacewoman, Naomi Mitchison, Berkley Books, 1962 These are the memoirs of a woman who becomes an intergalactic explorer and communicator with alien species in the far future. It's an exciting profession, but a major drawback is that the distances involved require the crew to be in stasis while in transit. It leads to what's called time blackout, where the subjective period of time for the explorer is much less than the time elapsed back on earth. Between expeditions, Mary, the woman, has children by several different males. Before going on the next expedition, mothers are expected to stay on earth for at least a year of what's called "stabilization." Mary meets some interesting beings while exploring. She mediates between a race of innocent caterpillars being telepathically bullied with feelings of shame and unworthiness by a race of butterflies. Among her fellow explorers are Martians who can become either sex, and communicate using sex organs. One of Mary's children comes about through such "communication." This is a case of a story with some interesting pieces being covered up by very dry, emotional writing (as, I guess, is customary in memoirs). Naomi Mitchison - a queen, a saint and a shaman By Neil Ascherton Sunday January 17, 1999 At her 100th birthday, Naomi Mitchison sat like a tribal queen. She was not entirely clear why she was being celebrated, but was content and interested. A swarm of great-grandchildren surrounded her, handing her one present after another. She undid each one, tasting what was eatable, until the stack in her lap grew too high and the children replaced it. She was hard to find, a small figure hidden in the press of loving friends and relatives. The old house at Carradale, on the Kingyre Coast, was crammed with Labour ministers and MPs, crofters and professors, editors and fishermen. People in the throng spoke Gaelic, English, Italian, French, yet represented only a fraction of the real and imagined worlds this woman had traversed. There should have been a Mangwato prince from Bostwana, where she was a queen mother of sorts, a Scythian shaman, a clever spacewoman from the future. Naomi (who died on 11 January aged 101) was above all a writer of fiction. Literary fashion has from time to time tried to abandon her but always returns, fascinated, for another 'rediscovery'. Many of her short stories have become classics: her early novel The Corn King and The Spring Queen, about Scythia and the kingdom of Sparta, is still a triumph of empathy with vanished cultures. Its theme of defeat, loss and terror still a prophecy of the awful climax to her century. And there already was her agonised concern for what happens to women - rape, enslavement, the loss of children - when a man-made world collapses. But Naomi was the most confident of writers; there were few forms of literature she did not try. My own favourite is Memoirs of A Spacewoman, in which she transcended the technical-future stuff to become the Virginia Woolf of science fiction. Some people think Naomi wrote too much. I think she wrote too little of the literature she was good at, and this was because fiction was not enough to satisfy her restless drive to change the world. She was born into the Haldane dynasty, with its vast and self-assured command of science, social change and the politics of radical improvement. With a Victorian faith in progress, she worked incessantly and often physically. Among other things, she was a political fire-brand, energetic farmer, Argyle county councillor and relentless freelance journalist. She discovered that the best way to get an article published was to appear in an editor's office and hold his nose to the type script. Not all enjoyed this. On the Manchester Guardian and later the Scotsman, I was often deputed to receive her, if not actually fend her off. She knew why a junior reporter was talking to her, but was so friendly and fascinating that I always promised that her piece would go in. Not all were good, but most were: the trouble of was, she wrote so many. There was a Fabian, Shavian flavour to her energy, she could have belonged to the 'Fellowship for a new Life'. In the post war years, Carradale became a sort of intellectual mecca for leftish men and women lucky enough to get an invitation. Her tribe had increased enormously, and in summer the house sheltered countless Mitchison descendents and friends. In the quiet drawing room, great minds hid behind newspapers or doctoral theses while armies of children poured past the windows or fought ping pong tournaments: this was a happily informal house, but private thought was not to be interrupted. She was wise, having lived through much personal turmoil, and brave: somebody who lived out her feminism in days when love and freedom could carry grim penalties. But above all I will miss her fearless confidence. If intelligent people shouted long and loud enough at governments, she believed, truth would prevail. She often did prevail. For the rest of us not raised in an age of reason, it is harder. Naomi Haldane, the daughter of a physiologist, John Scott Haldane, and the sister of John Haldane , was born in Edinburgh on 1st November, 1897. Her mother, Kathleen (Trotter) Haldane, was a suffragist, who published the memoir, Friends and Kindred. After being educated at Dragon School she moved to Oxford University to science but left in 1915 to become a VAD nurse during the First World War. In 1916 she married Gilbert Mitchison, while he was on leave from the Western Front. During her life Mitchison published over 70 books. This included historical novels and short-stories such as The Conquered (1923), Cloud Cuckoo Land (1925), Black Sparta (1928), The Corn King and the Spring Queen (1931) and The Blood of the Martyrs (1939). Her novel, We Have Been Warned (1935), that dealt with abortion and birth control was censored. A socialist and active member of the Labour Party, she took part in many political campaigns, including helping her husband to get elected to the House of Commons. Mitchison was also a regular contributor to the feminist journal, Time and Tide and the New Statesman. Mitchison, who mainly lived in Carradale on the Mull of Kintyre after 1937, wrote three volumes of memoirs, Small Talk (1973), All Change Here (1975) and You May Well Ask (1979). Her diary covering the Second World War, Among You Taking Notes, was published in 1985. Later books included a book about her travels in five continents, Mucking Around (1981), A Girl Must Live (1990) and The Oathtakers (1991). Naomi Mitchison died, aged 101, on 11th January, 1999. AP, Tuesday January 12, 1999 3:42 AM ET Author Naomi Mitchison Dies at 101 CARRADALE, Scotland (AP) - Lady Naomi Mitchison, who was often called the doyenne of Scottish literature, has died at the age of 101, her family said. The cause and location of her death, which occurred Monday, were not immediately available. A poet and novelist, Lady Mitchison was a prolific writer - completing more than 80 novels in her lifetime. She never confined herself to one style, writing historical novels, science fiction, travel writing and a three volume autobiography. Her first novel, The Conquered, was published in 1923 and was based on her wartime experiences. In 1935, Lady Mitchison published her most controversial work. We Have Been Wanted explored sexual behavior, including rape, seduction and abortion. The book was rejected by leading publishers and ultimately censored. In addition to her writings, Lady Mitchison was also a vocal women's rights campaigner, actively lobbying for birth control. Born in Edinburgh in 1897, she began a science degree at Oxford University, but gave up her studies to become a nurse. She married Dick Mitchison in 1916. He later became a member of Parliament for the Labor Party, and was eventually made into a life peer. Lady Mitchison was also made a life peer in 1964 for her literary contributions. Throughout her life, she was a spokeswoman for the island communities of western Scotland, where she made her home. She is survived by five children. Her husband died in 1970. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:50:19 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Sandy Cronin Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Dave Belden wrote: > I think she may qualify for > Pamela's quest for: > > Why can't they find a mate who accepts them as they are -- who > > supports and encourages their search for power, and personal, intellectual > > and career fulfillment, etc? Reading this reminded me of at least a couple of strong women in SF who haven't had to give up either love or career...those in Sarah Zettel's books. I'm not remembering all of them at the moment, but the ones I'm thinking of all have prominent strong women doing their jobs AND maintaining loving relationships with men who accept them for what they are. It's been a while since I read some of them, so I may be painting them more rosily than they actually are, but that's the impression I've come away with, at least... -Sandy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:00:05 -0400 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Dave Belden Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021025112953.02c58910@leeanne.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you, Lee Anne for all the info on Mitchison. One of those amazing English upper class women who seemed to have unlimited self-confidence and independence, only this time devoted to left causes not exploring Africa (or rather, in addition to exploring Africa). That thorough independence of mind, taken for granted rather than sweated for, was one of the attractive features of her spacewoman. I totally recommend the Corn King and the Spring Queen to anyone interested in pre-Roman times, ancient pagan religion, and a great story. Dave ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:13:03 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Cynthia Childs Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > Thank you, Lee Anne for all the info on Mitchison. One of those amazing > English upper class women who seemed to have unlimited self-confidence and > independence, only this time devoted to left causes not exploring Africa (or > rather, in addition to exploring Africa). That thorough independence of > mind, taken for granted rather than sweated for, was one of the attractive > features of her spacewoman. I totally recommend the Corn King and the Spring > Queen to anyone interested in > > Dave > I tried reading Mitchison^Ōs The Corn King and the Spring Queen last year and gave it up a third of the way through. This book was originally published in 1931 and seems to reflect the opinion that women are on this earth to be humiliated and to suffer, and uppity women (how dare they be that way!) are to be humiliated and suffer the most! I got very, very depressed by this book and had no desire to wade all the way through. I thought the fertility rite was particularly disgusting. The spring queen was humiliated and abused then had to stand by and jealously watch while her husband, the corn king, aided by some ancient secret miracle drug, had sex with every other woman in the village except for her! Give me a break! If there were such rites, it would have been the spring queen taking on all the guys she fancied! This is do-able. I haven^Ōt read Mediterranean pre-history in a while, but it seems to me Mitchison got most of the pre-Roman, ancient pagan religion stuff wrong, too. My 2 cents ... - Cyn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:55:58 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_a7.28fae03a.2aeb340e_boundary" --part1_a7.28fae03a.2aeb340e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/24/2002 11:00:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, momtotsan@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Her character recedes as Luke's > advances until she is hardly anything more than a prop, needing, yet again, > to be rescued, this time from Jabba the Hut She did kill Jabba the Hutt. Though I do agree with your comments about the written works. I did like one of the books though; she bested Luke in a lightsaber fight. Chris --part1_a7.28fae03a.2aeb340e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/24/2002 11:00:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, momtotsan@HOTMAIL.COM writes:


  Her character recedes as Luke's
advances until she is hardly anything more than a prop, needing, yet again,
to be rescued, this time from Jabba the Hut


She did kill Jabba the Hutt.  Though I do agree with your comments about the written works.  I did like one of the books though; she bested Luke in a lightsaber fight.

Chris --part1_a7.28fae03a.2aeb340e_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:08:24 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_12a.199b5091.2aeb36f8_boundary" --part1_12a.199b5091.2aeb36f8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/25/2002 10:36:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU writes: > classic 'body' introduced for the adolescent male audience to lift ratings. > My favourite has always been DS9 - not only for a better presentation of > women characters, but the script-writing, the plot lines, the acting etc - > were all much better than any other of the ST series. > Yes I would agree with that. Earth 2 was good because you had a woman as leader, woman as doctor, and the third seemed a pretty face but was more then that. Then you had the girl, True, who knew more about machines then her pop. Though it could have used some improvment, the show did have strong women characters. There was Seaquest but the strong women on that show had a habit of leaving the show. --part1_12a.199b5091.2aeb36f8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/25/2002 10:36:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU writes:


classic 'body' introduced for the adolescent male audience to lift ratings.
My favourite has always been DS9 - not only for a better presentation of
women characters, but the script-writing, the plot lines, the acting etc -
were all much better than any other of the ST series.


Yes I would agree with that. 
Earth 2 was good because you had a woman as leader, woman as doctor, and the third seemed a pretty face but was more then that.  Then you had the girl, True, who knew more about machines then her pop.  Though it could have used some improvment, the show did have strong women characters.
       There was Seaquest but the strong women on that show had a habit of leaving the show.
      
       --part1_12a.199b5091.2aeb36f8_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:52:58 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks so much for the biographical info on Naomi Mitchison. I have her Memoirs of a Spacewoman, though I can't remember much about it, but knew next to nothing about her!-Joy "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:52:57 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/25/02 8:36:27 AM Central Daylight Time, jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU writes: << The four Alien films >> Four? Have I lost track somewhere? I was thinking it was three, so far. -Joy "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:52:58 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/25/02 8:36:27 AM Central Daylight Time, jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU writes: << The book on which the first film was very loosely based, also mentions that Ripley had a 7-yr-old daughter, >> What was the name of this book and who was the author?-Joy "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:08:43 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: Feminist SF/F Lit In-Reply-To: <84.c30202.2aeb4169@cs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:52 PM 10/25/2002 -0400, Joy Martin wrote: >In a message dated 10/25/02 8:36:27 AM Central Daylight Time, >jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU writes: > ><< The four Alien films >> >Four? Have I lost track somewhere? I was thinking it was three, so far. - Alien, Aliens, Alien3, Alien Resurrection, ....? Our motion picture industry is rarely content to leave a good thing alone. I fully expect that there will eventually be an Alien Renaissance along to milk a few more dollars out of the franchise, not to mention Baby Alien: The Prequel, and Alien Angst: The Teenage Years. ;-) Oh, dang! I forgot Alien Legacy and For a Few Aliens More: Extraterrestrials in Old Mexico ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:08:21 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: Feminist SF/F Lit In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Alien Series is very much in line with traditional female roles despite the centrality of Ripley's character. She's humiliated, nearly raped, rescued (in Alien 3) by a man she has sex with and who is later killed, in a sort of James Bondian "Kiss of Death." In fact, every cliche in the book of tricks for horror films is used, but skewed very slightly by the centrality of Ripley. She's the dumb blonde who goes down into the basement alone, the nattering airhead whom nobody believes, the innocent panting victim with heaving breasts stalked by the vicious killer, and manages to escape by the skin of her teeth through trickery and deceit. Oh, but she manages to make fools of all the men just like Margaret Anderson, the tricky "Mom" in Father Knows Best. Male heroes typically stand at the metaphorical horizon at the end of their movies, ready to ride off into the sunset after their triumphant victory; Ripley is broken, or nearly so, at the end of every movie, like Thelma and Louise hurtling over the cliff, doomed rather than glorious, slightly shabby rather than noble. And they don't even let her stay dead; In Alien Resurrection they bring her back to life so they can do it all over again. And of course the final humiliation is that they've even stolen her humanity, to the point that she flushes her own son down the toilet and out into space in a pathetic reprise from all the rest of the Alien franchise. Don't they ever get *tired* of blowing things into endless vacuum? Or is the only actual vacuum located between the ears of the writers and directors? Think of the ending of science fiction movies featuring male protagonists; Star Wars and sequels, Terminator and sequels, none of them have quite the bleakness of Aliens. Terminator 2 has a similar strong female character in Connor, but she is treated just like Ripley, mocked, locked up, crazy, beaten, and finally rescued by men, even when the man happens to be a clever robot. In a word, feh! The first one was sort of cool, in that it was interesting to see the anomaly of a "strong" female character way back then, but when I look at it now, I have the same feeling I have looking at I Love Lucy reruns, a vague sense of nausea when confronted by the implicit sexism and misogyny that seems extant even in the distant future. The series went rapidly downhill from there, with Ripley serving mainly as "eye candy" for the teenage male target audience, right down to her skimpy thong underwear and luscious boobs. I must admit that the series furnished the raw materials for many wonderful feminist papers written by women who evidently didn't actually *see* the films, but only talked about it after they uncovered their eyes. At 12:03 PM 10/25/2002 -0500, Janice E. Dawley wrote: >At 09:49 PM 10/24/2002 -0500, Pamela Taylor wrote: >>As far as other films, how about the Alien series? Sigorney Weaver's >>character is pretty awesome. Although she is very asexual. It seems to >This whole idea of "a man in woman's clothing" is such a gray area to me. >On the one hand, it is discouraging to see female characters empowered only >by taking on macho postures -- as if that is the only alternative most >filmmakers or writers see to being a 50s housewife or a disposable sex >object. On the other hand, when critics dismiss a woman character as being >a "man with boobs" simply because she is strong and physically assertive, I >get antsy. This criticism seems to assume that certain behaviors are mapped >eternally to feminine and masculine gender roles and that any crossover is >indicative of a desire to play the other role entire. That may occasionally >be the case, but most often I don't think it's so. > >Ripley, for example, is in no way a man in disguise. She wasn't conceived >that way, and she doesn't come across that way (at least to me) in any of >the films except, perhaps, the last one. In the first movie, Ripley doesn't >kick ass and isn't a hero. She's just a little smarter and luckier than the >rest of the crew of her ship. And don't forget sexy -- there's a fairly >lengthy sequence near the end of the movie in which Ripley, clad only in >miniscule underwear, has to creep across a room towards a protective space >suit, trying to avoid the attention of the nearly dormant alien. Very >reminiscent of the role of a helpless woman in a "slasher" movie -- except >that she defeats the villain. > >In the second movie, she's much more heroic, but again, not in a way that I >see as "male" -- unless we're talking "Vietnam vet with PTSD". And as a >couple people have mentioned, there is the whole subplot of Ripley's >maternal feelings toward Newt, which in the director's cut are more >explicitly linked to Ripley's discovery that her daughter died at an >advanced age while Ripley was drifting through space in hypersleep. The >Battle of the Moms theme that develops toward the end of the film is a >little overdone for my taste (particularly Ripley's line to the alien >queen: "Get away from her, you bitch!"), but I'm not sure it should be seen >as a statement that females will only fight to protect their young. After >all, Ripley agreed to go on the mission before she knew there would be a >daughter-figure to protect, and she was explicit from the beginning that >she wanted the aliens eradicated, not brought back for study. > >In that she is betrayed by "the man", the Corporate employer personified by >the weaselly Burke. The movie's take on gender is very interesting, >actually, as it portrays a variety of male and female roles. Burke and >Ripley and to an extent the lieutenant in charge of the mission are at >first portrayed as weaker and more effete than the rough-and-tumble grunts. >But it soon becomes clear that someone's macho or lack of it is immaterial >to their chances of survival. The young girl Newt is the only survivor of >the colony because she is adept at hiding. The one guy who survives >(seriously injured) is himself a pretty straight-ahead strongman, but he's >emotionally secure enough to be able to appreciate Ripley's strength and >smarts. And Ripley is a damaged, reluctant protector of humanity whose >decency *could* be tied to her femaleness -- her horror at Burke's plan to >smuggle aliens back to Earth by implanting them in herself and Newt is at >least as much a horror of the "ends justifies the means" thought process of >the heartless and male-coded Corporation as it is fear for her own life -- >but it is debatable. Truly an interesting film, and one of my favorites. > >I have never seen the third movie all the way through, and I thought the >fourth was a terrible mess, but I have enjoyed others' comments on them. >There's much fodder for discussion there. > >----- >Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT >http://therem.net/ >Listening to: Coldplay -- A Rush of Blood to the Head >"I've built my white picket fence around the Now, >with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:59:46 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Joell Smith Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007F_01C27C71.D50DDF40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01C27C71.D50DDF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone else out there watching Firefly, the new Joss Whedon sci-fi show = on Fox? I've seen two episodes, maybe the first two, and it's looking = pretty promising. Of course, hopefully we can expect a lot from Whedon. = At any rate, I was impressed to see a married couple on the ship--he's = the pilot, she's one of the owners, and/or second in command (I'm still = trying to keep track of what everyone does). I was surprised, and then = kind of disturbed that I found it surprising, that the couple was = coupled from the very beginning. There is a romance line or two--the = prairie-girl mechanic and the fussy-boy doctor, and the professional = Companion and the captain, I think--but I was excited to see a committed = relationship between equals right off the bat.=20 I'm already hooked. No more Friday nights out on the town for me, I = guess! Joell It seems to me that the feminist vision requires not only a revamping = of traditional feminine roles but also of traditional masculine roles. In = a lot of sci-fi/fantasy the vision of masculinity is so hyper-male that it = becomes difficult for the female character to reconcile her need for love and = a mate with her drive for indepenence and strength. Thus you find the female characters who start out strong and independent and who end up = throwing it all away for love. Or throwing away love for career (loosely defined career). Why can't they find a mate who accepts them as they are -- = who supports and encourages their search for power, and personal, = intellectual and career fulfillment, etc? =20 ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01C27C71.D50DDF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anyone else out there watching Firefly, = the new=20 Joss Whedon sci-fi show on Fox? I've seen two episodes, maybe the first = two, and=20 it's looking pretty promising. Of course, hopefully we can expect a lot = from=20 Whedon. At any rate, I was impressed to see a married couple on the = ship--he's=20 the pilot, she's one of the owners, and/or second in command (I'm still = trying=20 to keep track of what everyone does). I was surprised, and then kind of=20 disturbed that I found it surprising, that the couple was coupled from = the very=20 beginning. There is a romance line or two--the prairie-girl mechanic and = the=20 fussy-boy doctor, and the professional Companion and the captain, I = think--but I=20 was excited to see a committed relationship between equals right = off the=20 bat.
 
I'm already hooked. No more Friday = nights out on=20 the town for me, I guess!
Joell
It seems to me that the feminist vision requires not only a = revamping=20 of
traditional feminine roles but also of traditional masculine = roles. In a=20 lot
of sci-fi/fantasy the vision of masculinity is so hyper-male = that it=20 becomes
difficult for the female character to reconcile her need = for love=20 and a mate
with her drive for indepenence and strength.  Thus = you find=20 the female
characters who start out strong and independent and who = end up=20 throwing it
all away for love.  Or throwing away love for = career=20 (loosely defined
career).  Why can't they find a mate who = accepts them=20 as they are -- who
supports and encourages their search for power, = and=20 personal, intellectual
and career fulfillment, etc? 
 
------=_NextPart_000_007F_01C27C71.D50DDF40-- ------------------------------------------- Introducing NetZero Long Distance Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month! Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 04:39:14 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: John Snead Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <200210260103.185j6s7q83Nl3p20@pickering.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Joell Smith > Anyone else out there watching Firefly, the new Joss Whedon sci-fi > show = on Fox? I've seen two episodes, maybe the first two, and it's > looking = pretty promising. Of course, hopefully we can expect a lot > from Whedon. Agreed, also I love the character of the Companion. Whedon and company are portraying her in a very sex-positive and non- homophobic fashion. I'm very impresses with Firefly. It joins the ranks of Farscape as video SF that is non-sexist. DS: 9 was close (and quite good), and was far better in all ways than any other ST series, but pales in comparison to Firefly or Farscape in terms of being non-sexist as well as in terms of quality. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 07:54:17 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/25/02 2:50:41 PM, various . . . << > > Why can't they find a mate who accepts them as they are -- who > > supports and encourages their search for power, and personal, intellectual > > and career fulfillment, etc? >> David Weber's Honor Harrington series explores this in several of the books. When Honor finally falls in love, her beloved encourages and supports. Others around her do. It has a host of strong female characters, juxtapositioned with planets where women are NOT in positions of power. Best, phoebe wray ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:04:24 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Pamela Taylor Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi all, Lee Anne, /snip/The Alien Series is very much in line with traditional female roles despite the centrality of Ripley's character... I'm going to have to watch the movies again, I'll have to admit I viewed them only as brain candy, not analyzing them at all. I did think that no matter what the aliens and the Company, etc. did to Ripley, she managed to overcome it while holding onto her principles, her courage and her intelligence. That, by the end of each movie, although she had been through the wringer, she had triumphed. No it wasn't the same kind of shining, unsullied victory of a space opera hero and yes, she was put through the typical female horror stupidities, and by the time they got to the one on the prison planet things were just too unbelievable, but it raises in my mind the question of what constitutes a strong female character -- one who doesn't have to deal with rape, manipulation, etc or one who confronts them head on and overcomes them? One who dances glibly through a hail of bullets, or a sea of hostile warships, untouched? That isn't reality, it's fantasy. I think I would rather see a real woman dealing with real issues even if the result is dark and not very pleasant for her, even if she doesn't always triumph, so long as she always tries. As far as the set pieces... certainly she wasn't the only one walking idiotically into the basement trap, although she was the only one (at least in the first movie) that survived them. And, of course, the theme of sucess through death, and self-sacrifice, as in her jumping into the vat, stinks of fairy tale heroines -- sleeping beauty, snow white, etc. But does infanticide necessarily have to be evil? Is abortion an empowerment of women or a form of criminality? If she knows the child is going to be a monster, is it wrong to kill it? And even if killing it is justified, even necessary, does that mean she won't have to suffer any guilt? Women have to grapple with these kinds of issues daily and while it may leave Ripley scarred, and unheroic, it does put her in a realm of reality that a Han Solo lacks. Pamela _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:26:01 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:54 AM 10/26/2002, you wrote: >David Weber's Honor Harrington series explores this in several of the books. >When Honor finally falls in love, her beloved encourages and supports. Others >around her do. It has a host of strong female characters, juxtapositioned >with planets where women are NOT in positions of power. Of course, to get this you have to put up with right wing, jingoistic support of the the military as the source of all good things in the universe. Socialism, democracy, anarchism, even social justice -- all get very short shrift. Great, women are in positions of power, but I sure wouldn't want to live in David Weber's ideal universe. ----- Chris Shaffer chris@bsinc.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 00:40:50 +1000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Deborah Biancotti Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >She did kill Jabba the Hutt. Although she had to wear a bikini to do it. :) _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:39:29 -0400 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Dave Belden Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <200210252313.g9PND3Y11697@delano.ucdavis.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cynthia wrote: > I tried reading Mitchison^Ōs The Corn King and the Spring Queen last year > and gave it up a third of the way through. This book was originally > published in 1931 and seems to reflect the opinion that women are on this > earth to be humiliated and to suffer, and uppity women (how dare they be > that way!) are to be humiliated and suffer the most! I got very, very > depressed by this book and had no desire to wade all the way through. This one of those 'was I that unaware when I enjoyed this book?' moments. I read it when Virago, a feminist publishing house in England, first put it out again in 1983. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and by then had pretty high feminist antennae (for a guy and all that), and so I think I must have interpreted it quite differently than you did. As I have learned on this listserve, if I didn't know it before, people can certainly have remarkably opposite reactions to the same book. Unfortunately I would have to go back and read it again, though, in light of your response to it, to speak intelligently here about how I read it. I'm no expert on pre-classical Europe, so wouldn't have your ability to critique it from that perspective. I have read quite a lot of history and don't have a very high expectation level that anyone's life will be very attractive in historical novels, so may have been more taken with the sense of a world being recreated plausibly ... Could that have anything to do with it? Dave ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 08:58:45 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Joshua Humphrey Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > It seems to me that the feminist vision requires not only a revamping of >traditional feminine roles but also of traditional masculine roles. In a >lot of sci-fi/fantasy the vision of masculinity is so hyper-male that it >becomes difficult for the female character to reconcile her need for love >and a mate with her drive for independence and strength. Thus you find the >female characters who start out strong and independent and who end up >throwing it all away for love. Or throwing away love for career (loosely >defined career). Why can't they find a mate who accepts them as they are >-- who supports and encourages their search for power, and personal, >intellectual and career fulfillment, etc? > I find this to be largely and sadly true of most Sci-Fi. I'm irrevocably disappointed when I see an intriguing female character suddenly take a back seat to a male that is seen as a love interest or mate. These males, of course, tend to be the heroic type and their love interests only appear as satelittes to that heroicism. As much as I love the Star Wars universe, I can't help but feel it is male dominated. Its mythos are steeped in a different era, one where patriarchy was still the norm and Hollywood catering to the 13-49 year old male demographic was just beginning to influence filming. I watch Farscape for its strong women characters. Though it's recently been cancelled, it still is a viable example of females being defined on their own terms and not our preconceived notions. Coming back to the fact women often take a backseat to the male lead's heroicism, the females of Farscape (Aeryn, Jool, Chiana, Sikozu) fit none of John Crichton's normal human stereotypes. Everytime he tries to apply them to these women, they somehow break past them and raise themselves to different character heights. The series puts character development high in its priorities, and it always shows in how the characters are portrayed, though that isn't always in a positive light. Aeryn's relationship with John is a good example: there is that kindled love interest, but Aeryn comes from a warrior background and refuses to budge on most of John's advances. Slowly over the course of seasons, they've come to a mutual understanding and have grown sufficiently to accommodate one another, but Aeryn still embraces her warrior background, and despite her love for John, will make decisions that often contradict the love she feels for him. John often thinks these decisions are deliberate and are spiteful on Aeryn's part, but he's slowly come to realize that Aeryn is a different being entirely with different cultural norms from John. He is beginning to accept her for who she is. Other characteristics of Farscape females characters (notably Chiana) in terms of their relationships to males can be discussed, but I'll leave off for now. For my first post, that's enough. Joshua Humphrey _________________________________________________________________ Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:44:30 -0700 Reply-To: susan@perspective.com Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Susan Kornfeld Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars (failed recipient check) Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset=x-mac-roman Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT New participant here: a MA candidate at Humboldt State University, working on transformations of maternal imagery and voice in recent women's SF.
ĘĘ Several authors have dealt with the female character's need for love as well as independence by creating a lover to fit, as in McHughes Nekropolis where Akhmin, a constructed though organic man is in many ways a perfect lover; or in He, She and It, where Yod, another constructed man is a perfect lover. These seem to look back to Russ's Davy, who was Jael's house-robot perfect bimbo guy in The Female Man.
ĘĘĘ Nalo Hopkinson's Midnight Robber finds a supportive man, as does Laurel in Octavia Butler's Parable of the Talents.Is it a coincidence that the authors are women of color? (Which reminds me of Sethe's supportive lover in The Beloved.)
ĘĘĘ The biggest sell out, I think, is Bujold's wonderful Cordelia who makes a strong entrance in the first book of the Vorkosigan series and then fades into a stereotypical spunky little wife and mother.
ĘĘ Many of the female characters in recent books are quite young (vs. 70s and 80s SF), their lives uncomplicated by children. Part of the daughter's quest involves the "need for love" and this complicates the way in which they come to power. Alien is interesting in that the lead is a mother, but where do we see that in books (besides ones mentioned above?) I'm not sure current feminism has worked out a stance on maternal power, or female power in tandem with maternity. My research so far seems to indicate that with few exceptions current women's SF uses the daughter's voice; mothers are absent, dangerous or antagonistic-- or else self sacrificing. Female characters should develop strength as they age, but then the rock of maternity looms, and authors seem to steer a course around it or stop short of it.

ĘĘĘ I'd be very interested in whether anyone thinks this "daughter" orientation and suppression of the mother reflects Third Wave feminism's youth and their struggle to differentiate from Second Wave mothers.

Susan Kornfeld



Ę It seems to me that the feminist vision requires not only a revamping of
traditional feminine roles but also of traditional masculine roles. In a
lot of sci-fi/fantasy the vision of masculinity is so hyper-male that it
becomes difficult for the female character to reconcile her need for love
and a mate with her drive for independence and strength.Ę

I find this to be largely and sadly true of most Sci-Fi.Ę I'm irrevocably
disappointed when I see an intriguing female character suddenly take a back
seat to a male that is seen as a love interest or mate.Ę These males, of
course, tend to be the heroic type and their love interests only appear as
satelittes to that heroicism.

Joshua Humphrey


========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:59:26 -0700 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Caroline Schuster Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia , FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In which book did she kick Luke's butt in a lighsaber dual? It seems as though in most of the extended universe books she adopts the maternal role and lets the boys go off and fight...boo! Carly At 07:55 PM 10/25/2002 -0400, Christine Ethier wrote: >In a message dated 10/24/2002 11:00:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, >momtotsan@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > >> Her character recedes as Luke's >>advances until she is hardly anything more than a prop, needing, yet again, >>to be rescued, this time from Jabba the Hut > > >She did kill Jabba the Hutt. Though I do agree with your comments about >the written works. I did like one of the books though; she bested Luke in >a lightsaber fight. > >Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 18:27:56 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/26/02 11:40:33 AM, chris@BSINC.NET writes: << Great, women are in positions of power, but I sure wouldn't want to live in David Weber's ideal universe. >> I can't see that he has given us one. What you say about jingoist, flatlining social justice, etc, is all true. He has, however, developed a universe in which -- in most situations and venues-- women hold equal power, without comment on whether or not they should. That is what we were talking about. Best, phoebew Share the planet. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 20:50:37 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1ab.af9a322.2aec925d_boundary" --part1_1ab.af9a322.2aec925d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/26/2002 11:40:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, deborahbiancotti@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Although she had to wear a bikini to do it. :) > > Yeah I know. The first time I ever saw Jedi on regular tv it was on NBC. And they cut the scene where she killed Jabba and the scene where she and Wicket shot the stormtroppers. And those were the only seasons that were cut. It looks like Disney's new cartoon is sci-fi and has a female capt. Chris --part1_1ab.af9a322.2aec925d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/26/2002 11:40:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, deborahbiancotti@HOTMAIL.COM writes:


Although she had to wear a bikini to do it. :)



Yeah I know.  The first time I ever saw Jedi on regular tv it was on NBC.  And they cut the scene where she killed Jabba and the scene where she and Wicket shot the stormtroppers.  And those were the only seasons that were cut.

It looks like Disney's new cartoon is sci-fi and has a female capt.

Chris --part1_1ab.af9a322.2aec925d_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 20:53:37 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_51.266f7094.2aec9311_boundary" --part1_51.266f7094.2aec9311_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/26/2002 2:59:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, ces1983@STANFORD.EDU writes: > In which book did she kick Luke's butt in a lighsaber dual? It seems as > though in most of the extended universe books she adopts the maternal role > and lets the boys go off and fight...boo! > > I think it was the first volumne of the Corlleian Wars. It came out first in paperback and the kids weren't adults yet. Mon Mothma also told Luke that just because Leia wasn't a jedi didn't mean she was important and what Leia did for the republic took time, energy and skill. chris --part1_51.266f7094.2aec9311_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/26/2002 2:59:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, ces1983@STANFORD.EDU writes:


In which book did she kick Luke's butt in a lighsaber dual?  It seems as
though in most of the extended universe books she adopts the maternal role
and lets the boys go off and fight...boo!



I think it was the first volumne of the Corlleian Wars.  It came out first in paperback and the kids weren't adults yet.   Mon Mothma also told Luke that just because Leia wasn't a jedi didn't mean she was important and what Leia did for the republic took time, energy and skill.

chris --part1_51.266f7094.2aec9311_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 21:03:44 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Anne Bishop Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_11e.18d577ef.2aec9570_boundary" --part1_11e.18d577ef.2aec9570_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry about that last email. Okay, I'm in the middle of Daughter of the Blood and one of you could have warned me that I would not want to go to work on Friday because the book was so good. Second, I like how Bishop drew Janelle's character. Usually when there is a woman destined to be queen or, less often, woman as chosen one, she turns out to be brat who I end up disliking intensely. Janelle is not this. She's fun and the reader is drawn to her in a similar manner as the other characters. Third, the fact that the men are the ones who are shaved and who wear the rings seems like the reversal of today's female castration and genitalia mutilation. Usually when sex is controlled it is the men over the women. Bishop reserves this. Perhaps that is why some people find it over the top? IT is an unusual role reversal. Fourth, I do agree that Bishop's writing reminds me of Angela Carter and Tanith Lee. And Bishop is much better then LK Hamilton (whoever said that the Blake books have become soft porn, I'll second that). Chris --part1_11e.18d577ef.2aec9570_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry about that last email.

Okay, I'm in the middle of Daughter of the Blood and one of you could have warned me that I would not want to go to work on Friday because the book was so good.

Second, I like how Bishop drew Janelle's character.  Usually when there is a woman destined to be queen or, less often, woman as chosen one, she turns out to be brat who I end up disliking intensely.  Janelle is not this.  She's fun and the reader is drawn to her in a similar manner as the other characters.
       Third, the fact that the men are the ones who are shaved and who wear the rings seems like the reversal of today's female castration and genitalia mutilation.   Usually when sex is controlled it is the men over the women.  Bishop reserves this.  Perhaps that is why some people find it over the top?  IT is an unusual role reversal.
       Fourth, I do agree that Bishop's writing reminds me of Angela Carter and Tanith Lee.  And Bishop is much better then LK Hamilton (whoever said that the Blake books have become soft porn, I'll second that).

Chris
 --part1_11e.18d577ef.2aec9570_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 20:06:57 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Pamela Taylor Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi everyone, I posted this to Susan by accident (seems like often when I hit reply it only to the individual not the list, am I doing something wrong?) Anyway, here it is for all of you, Pamela ---- Susan, I'm not quite sure what ages Second and Third Wave feminists are, but it seems to me that in American culture in general there is an acknowledgement at "having it all" is extemely difficult on women (and their families) that it requires choices to be made which do not sit easy with anyone, whether it is to leave (or never start) a career and be a full-time mother, or to arrange for others to care for one's child(ren) while one pursues career, intelletual development, etc, or to forgo having children at all. No matter what one chooses, there is often a great deal of guilt and/or remorse -- either for wasting one's personal potential, or for neglecting one's duties as a mother. The few who can manage both are dying of lack of sleep. (Writing on three hours here, so if I'm not quite coherent, please forgive!) Even those who have to choose one or the other are under incredible stress, and pressure. These issues are not easy to resolve. There is no simple sythesis. Perhaps feminist sci-fi writers find enough problems to deal with with daughter figure characters, or without a good answer as to how to deal with the various motivations and drives they prefer not to deal with it? In my own writing, I've been debating whether or not the main character should bear a child, or perhaps adopt one, and how that would impact her life and the goals she has set for herself. Sometimes I think it would just be easier to avoid the issue completely! (When she got married she accepted the fact that she was unlikely to have a child, why change that, I say to myself.) And yet, it feels like a cop out to negate what is an integral part of most women's lives... Pamela ---- _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 23:58:55 EDT Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Joy Martin Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/26/02 10:40:13 AM Central Daylight Time, momtotsan@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << the theme of sucess through death, and self-sacrifice, as in her jumping into the vat, stinks of fairy tale heroines -- sleeping beauty, snow white, etc. >> I don't really think this selfsacrifice was in the sleeping beauty mode (and exactly what was the selfsacrifice in sleeping beauty anyway?) (and no prince was coming to the rescue either). Selfsacrifice for the greater good, fairy tale or in real life, has a long tradition, but men are usually recognized for that kind of cause, whereas women are usually shown doing it for love or some such. At some point perhaps one can say, what's the diff, if it's for the whole of humanity, is that a mother thing or a father thing or some other thing? But in reality, every major social movement for radical change has required selfsacrifice , that is, people who are willing to choose to sacrifice something up to and including life for something they consider worth it. The critical question, which makes a person an actor, a subject of one's own life and a subject in history, is, whether one consciously chooses to say, it is worth it . (Of course, events push many people into a heroic mode, but there are always moments of choice along the way - does one become a collaborator, complicit say in whatever the oppression or other circumstance that others choose to oppose?- a person makes these choices, often little by little, and coming bit by bit to consciousness of the consequences of these choices, and in doing so, becomes the subject, not the object, of their life and history. And in that respect, for example, Ripley is a hero. She's not complicit and she chooses . She's also a sci fi hero fighting big bugs, but , of course, there's more to it than that. And if she weren't fighting a lot of shit, she wouldn't be a hero. Not to mention there wouldn't be a story.)-Joy "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 08:27:02 +0000 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Art McGee Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <200210270502.g9R52qj00659@otaku.freeshell.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > What you say about jingoist, flatlining social justice, > etc, is all true. He has, however, developed a universe in > which -- in most situations and venues -- women hold equal > power, without comment on whether or not they should. That > is what we were talking about. Right. So what WE seem to be talking about in this thread is BOURGEOIS or LIBERAL feminism, a feminism that simply gives women the power to destroy on an equal plane with men, which is cool, for what it's worth, but maybe we need to start a new thread that would try to identify the strains of RADICAL or REVOLUTIONARY feminism in Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Speculative Fiction. Where is the more wholistic brand of feminism manifest? Where is the evidence of WOMANISM? Art ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 00:22:38 +1100 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: susan@perspective.com, FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <3DBAE28E.5050504@perspective.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:44 AM 26/10/02 -0700, Susan Kornfeld wrote: > The biggest sell out, I think, is Bujold's wonderful Cordelia who >makes a strong entrance in the first book of the Vorkosigan series and then >fades into a stereotypical spunky little wife and mother. >Alien is interesting in that the lead is a mother, but >where do we see that in books (besides ones mentioned above?) I'm not sure >current feminism has worked out a stance on maternal power, or female power >in tandem with maternity. My research so far seems to indicate that with >few exceptions current women's SF uses the daughter's voice; mothers are >absent, dangerous or antagonistic-- or else self sacrificing. Female >characters should develop strength as they age, but then the rock of >maternity looms, and authors seem to steer a course around it or stop short >of it. Hi Susan - I'm confused about the term 'Third Wave', feminism - but do agree with the common use of the "daughter's voice" in contemporary sci-fi. The book which stands out most as different to this, is Jo Clayton's 'Diadem' series of novels. In the very first book "Diadem From the Stars", we meet our heroine Aleytys, aged 15, abandoned as a baby by her immortal mother on a backward medieval planet. Her father is a local baron type. She learns how her mother had crash-landed on the planet, was taken and forcibly married by her father, resulting in Aleytys's birth - but some time later the mother found a way to get off-planet, leaving Aleytys behind. At 15, Aleytys finds all this out, from a letter her mother left for her, and leaves to find the same way off-planet, partly to find her mother and resolve issues on why she was abandoned etc. She chooses to lose her virginity with a local man she had known all her life, but on the long foot-slogging trek across half a planet, (to find an old spaceship wreck with a functioning transmitter), Aleytys finds herself pregnant as well. Along the way, Aleytys gives birth, and completes the trek with baby son in tow all the way. She also meets traders who give her the diadem which gives the 7-book series its name. Trapped in the diadem are 3 'souls' or personalities - at body's death, the wearer's soul is trapped inside the diadem. It cannot be removed while the wearer is living (and is also invisible once bonded to a living wearer) The next 6 or so books, tell the many long years story of Aleytys' adventures across the star-ways, finding a way to release the souls trapped in the diadem (and so remove it from her own skull) and find bodies for them, keep herself alive so she doesn't become yet another trapped soul, as well as her original goal to locate her mother. Added to the adventure mix, is constantly having to avoid the spider-like species who made the diadem and want it back at any cost. It is space-opera and action at its finest, but interspersed throughout is a mother-daughter-sister theme, with strong characterisation. Aleytys is all 3 - mother/daughter/sister - she is also a traditional hero and becomes a formidable warrior in her own right..... but she also breastfeeds her son, wipes his butt and complains of his presence at awkward times. The three souls trapped in the diadem, 2 women and one man, Haskari the first and eldest of them - an older woman, then Shadith a young maiden woman, and Quarth a man, a warrior in his prime. These souls have been trapped together for many thousands of years, but can only see into the real world through the eyes of a living diadem wearer. It wasn't until many years after first reading these books (written in 70s/80s and out-of-print for years) that I twigged to the symbolism of Maiden-Mother-Crone triad with the 3 women characters - they grow over the books, combining the three 'voices' into a coherent whole. In the final book, it is a kind of irony, that Aleytys does finally locate her birth mother, and releases the last trapped soul Haskari from the diadem, to take her birth mother's body. In doing so, she says "You were more my mother than she". Jo Clayton also wrote a number of spin-off same-universe books, including several based on the 'maiden' character Shadith, (aka 'Shadow'). Another author who deals with these themes, is Sheri Tepper - though she often tends to reverse the negative mother image, with a negative or at least ingenuous daughter image. I also sense some ambivalence on the part of Tepper in relation to mother-daughter relationships. Another is Suzy McKee Charnas in her Holdfast Chronicles novels, who at least tries to grapple with all the complexity, including the conflict, like Clayton does with very strong characterisation. As for the common invisibility of mothers (and crone image even more so) and the use of the daughter's voice being indicative of Third wave - firstly, I'm not sure what is meant by third wave. I think audience targetting may have more to do with it- a lot of recent developments in feminist sci-fi have have paralleled developments in feminist academic theory, eg. 'queer theory', post-modernism, gender deconstruction into a kind of an androgynous/cyborg image etc. Much recent feminist sci-fi has been exploring cyborgs and VR etc. Not a lot of room for discussion of motherhood in all that. Cheers - - Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 09:00:30 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Lori Errico-Seaman Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20021028002238.00e0b100@pop.ozemail.com.au> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 10/27/02 8:22 AM, "Julieanne" wrote: >> I'm not sure >> current feminism has worked out a stance on maternal power, or female power >> in tandem with maternity. My research so far seems to indicate that with >> few exceptions current women's SF uses the daughter's voice; mothers are >> absent, dangerous or antagonistic-- or else self sacrificing. Female >> characters should develop strength as they age, but then the rock of >> maternity looms, and authors seem to steer a course around it or stop short >> of it. I think Octavia Butler's Parable books go a long way towards founding a complex understanding of the mother-daughter relationship in feminist sci-fi (and feminist literature in general). I agree that the "daughter's voice" tends to be prevalent, but there are understandable reasons for that. The transmission of patriarchal and sexist value systems is often the job of the mother, not the father. There was quite a bit of feminist thought that holds women (and not just men) responsible for the oppression of women. While that doesn't seem to be as popular a line to take in feminist thought today, I think it still very much inflects the way many feminist authors view the mother-daughter relationship. "Parable of the Talents" does a wonderful job of showing the mother-daughter relationship in much of its complexity, by weaving the voices of the daughter and the mother together. So, while the "daughter's voice" still has many of the aspects your mentioning--the mother is, indeed, both absent *and* antagonistic--by also giving voice to the mother within the same narrative, the relationship plays out far more complexly than if it were only the daughter's story. Anyway, just a place to look for a good portrayal of mother-daughter dynamics from a feminist perspective. Lori ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 09:43:32 -0800 Reply-To: susan@perspective.com Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Susan Kornfeld Subject: Re: Maternity - or not Comments: To: Julieanne Comments: cc: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Julieanne - The books sound interesting, particularly with the maiden/mother/crone aspect. As to the Charnas series -- I agree that she does treat motherhood thoughtfully. Motherlines, of course, was written in the 70s when motherhood was an important topic in women's SF. But then when she comes back in the 90s with the Furies, you can see the confusion setting in (not hers) about, well, what do you do with men and the fact that you need babies. And of course in Conquerer's Child you have the resentful daughter trying to come to terms with her hero mother, and forcing the issue of what they will do with boy children. But outside of fantasy-type worlds, I see few Aleytys who are kicking butt and wiping it at the same time! However, even in that you see the denial of the birth mother from the heroine's POV. She searches for her to resolve mother/abandonment issues (as you suggest), and when she finally finds her, she replaces her with her own selected being, effectively birthing her mother. It's also interesting Aleytys has a son and not a daughter... Charnas' Sorrel would have liked to replace the spirit of her heart mother in the body of her birth mother at times. The mother/daughter thing is a toughie. I want to read the Diadem books, though. Thanks for the suggestion! Julieanne wrote: >Hi Susan - > >At 15, Aleytys finds all this out, from a letter her mother left for her, >and leaves to find the same way off-planet, partly to find her mother and >resolve issues on why she was abandoned etc. > >Along the way, Aleytys gives birth, and completes the trek with baby son in >tow all the way. . . . Aleytys is >all 3 - mother/daughter/sister - she is also a traditional hero and becomes >a formidable warrior in her own right..... but she also breastfeeds her >son, wipes his butt and complains of his presence at awkward times. > >It wasn't until many years after first reading these books (written in >70s/80s and out-of-print for years) that I twigged to the symbolism of >Maiden-Mother-Crone triad with the 3 women characters - they grow over the >books, combining the three 'voices' into a coherent whole. > >In the final book, it is a kind of irony, that Aleytys does finally locate >her birth mother, and releases the last trapped soul Haskari from the >diadem, to take her birth mother's body. In doing so, she says "You were >more my mother than she". > >Another author who deals with these themes, is Sheri Tepper ... another >is Suzy McKee Charnas in her >Holdfast Chronicles novels, who at least tries to grapple with all the >complexity, including the conflict, like Clayton does with very strong >characterisation. >- Julieanne > > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 10:01:26 -0800 Reply-To: susan@perspective.com Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Susan Kornfeld Subject: Re: Gender, Myth and Star Wars (failed recipient check) Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Lori - I agree with you about the thoughtful mother-daughter relationship in Parable of the Talents. The same type of relationship (daughter resentment of but ultimate movement towards acceptance/reconciliation with a strong/heroic mother who may love but is separated from her daughter) is also examined in Conquerer's Child and a little bit in Piercy's He, She and It. Note that these are older authors, of an age with Adrienne Rich and 70s activism against the "collaboration" of mothers within patriarchy (Matris, as Charnas' Holdfast called them), and that now these authors are reaching out to include the daughter in a dialog (I think Charnas said this explicitly). That the younger authors are still avoiding/suppressing mother suggests, maybe? that there still is a sense that the mother must be dispensed with in some way so that the daughter can attain her independence, freedom, or quest (back to the Jane Ayre model ....). You would think, correction -- I think that daughters have a lot more freedom than they had (we had) in the 70s. but then, I guess the overarching structures are still in place. Susan > >I think Octavia Butler's Parable books go a long way towards founding a >complex understanding of the mother-daughter relationship in feminist sci-fi >(and feminist literature in general). I agree that the "daughter's voice" >tends to be prevalent, but there are understandable reasons for that. The >transmission of patriarchal and sexist value systems is often the job of the >mother, not the father. There was quite a bit of feminist thought that >holds women (and not just men) responsible for the oppression of women. >While that doesn't seem to be as popular a line to take in feminist thought >today, I think it still very much inflects the way many feminist authors >view the mother-daughter relationship. "Parable of the Talents" does a >wonderful job of showing the mother-daughter relationship in much of its >complexity, by weaving the voices of the daughter and the mother together. >So, while the "daughter's voice" still has many of the aspects your >mentioning--the mother is, indeed, both absent *and* antagonistic--by also >giving voice to the mother within the same narrative, the relationship plays >out far more complexly than if it were only the daughter's story. > >Lori > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 10:46:55 -0800 Reply-To: publicity@mystgalaxy.com Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: "Firefly" Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia , Fem-SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been watching "Firefly" too, Joell, and have mostly positive feelings about it. I do like the married couple -- Zoey and her husband -- and like the positive aspect of the "Saloon girl" character being the one who lends the ragtag band of outlaws respectability. Plus any current SF show which doesn't make ships with whooshing noises and loud bangs during the "space" shots gets extra points from me. I'm cross posting this because it seems more appropriate for the Feminist SF list than the FEM-SF LIT list, as there are currently no "Firefly" books to reference. :) Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 11:19:44 -0800 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Bridgett Torrence Subject: Bujold's Mothers Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Susan K. wrote: <> I read this yesterday, and it really stuck in my head. I have to admit, I am a secret space opera fan. That said, I hope you=B9ll understand that my response may well be colored by the fact that I really like Bujold=B9s women of the Vorkosigan universe. While it is true that Cordelia fades to the background, so does her husband= , Aral. Though the first two books feature Cordelia as the main character, the series itself is really about her son, Miles. Despite that, I think that Cordelia remains a strong background presence throughout the series an= d that, in general, women in the series are portrayed as powerful in whatever role they choose. My favorite female character in the series is Ivan=B9s mother, Alys. Alys first comes into her own (in my opinion) when she gives birth to Ivan in an abandoned room off a squalid alley in the middle of a war zone. Interestingly enough, Cordelia has no idea what to do when faced with the impending birth of a child. It is left to Bothari (whom I would describe a= s a somewhat developmentally delayed, paranoid schizophrenic suffering from post traumatic stress disorder) to deliver the child. Cordelia can lead an= d organize a commando raid on the palace, but she=B9s at a loss when it comes t= o natural childbirth. Alys, like Cordelia, remains a background presence throughout the series, and a very strong one. She pretty much rules the social sphere of the Vorbarr Sultana, and has quite a lot of political influence. For example, in CIVIL CAMPAIGN, there is a subplot in which Lord Dono (ne Donna) is fighting (politically) for the right to inherit his estate. Alys is instrumental in swinging the vote in his favor. (The fact that Donna had t= o change sexes to inherit is the subject of another email, but it should be noted that here the transgendered are represented in Bujold=B9s universe.) There are also hints at the end of CIVIL CAMPAIGN that imply Alys is an undercover intelligence officer with the highest clearance. Just a meddling, matchmaking aunt? I don=B9t think so. The most visible strong woman character in the Vorkosigan universe is probably Commander Quinn. On the surface, she comes across as a 7 of 9 typ= e character; however, her reconstructive surgery was earned fairly in battle, and was by no means elective. She is a kick-butt warrior type who puts career before love, and even has her own book in the series, ETHAN OF ATHOS= . In that novel, she rescues the naive Ethan and basically saves the all male planet of Athos. Still, for me, her character leaves something to be desired, she is somehow lacking something substantial. The new woman on the scene is Ekaterin, who eventually marries Miles. I=B9m very interested to see what Bujold makes of her. When we first meet Ekaterin, she is a young mother in an abusive relationship and is lacking opportunities for personal growth. Ekaterin is a lady in the Vor sense, a gracious aristocrat who is described in one of the books as being a touch oversocialized. She is also the poor country cousin, and her relationship with Miles is sort of a Cinderella story. On the surface, it doesn=B9t seem as if Ekaterin has much to offer feminists looking for strong women characters, but she surprises us by doing extraordinary things (while retaining her composure, of course). Ekaterin is also a talented landscape architect who is able to explore her vocation after the convenient death of her first husband. In trying to gai= n her affection, Miles hires her to design a park. When Ekaterin discovers his ulterior motive, she justly feels that her art has been devalued and that she herself has been humiliated. Of course, Miles comes to see the error of his ways and they live happily ever after, but the scenario leads me to the following: Pamela T. wrote: <> Why does it have to be either/or? Why is it that mothering (fathering, nurturing) is not considered an appropriate outlet for one=B9s personal potential? Why is parenting such an unacceptable choice? As a society, we seem to believe that an intelligent, talented person is wasted as a full time parent. Even (especially?) feminists devalue the work of the traditional women=B9s sphere. This view is carried over into our science fiction. A kick-butt warrior woman who does an extraordinary deed is a hero and a role model, despite the fact that she is just doing her job. A =B3spunky little wife and mother=B2 who does an extraordinary deed is... What? Cute? Perhaps just too stupid to know any better. I used to laugh at women who add their children=B9s names and ages to their email signature. Then I really thought about it. People who add Author, Dr., Professor, Midwife, etc. to their signatures add credibility to their correspondence. Why is it that the title of Parent lends us no credibility whatsoever and opens one to ridicule from people like me? I would like to see a world, real or imagined, where parenthood is honored. I think Lois McMaster Bujold=B9s mothers are honored and retain power more than most. Yeah, I guess it=B9s true that Cordelia gave it =B3all=B2 up for love= , but why does that make her less admirable? Bridgett ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 11:53:24 -0800 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Sandy Cronin Subject: Re: Bujold's Mothers Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bridgett Torrence wrote: > I used to laugh at women who add their childrenšs names and ages to their > email signature. Then I really thought about it. People who add Author, > Dr., Professor, Midwife, etc. to their signatures add credibility to their > correspondence. Why is it that the title of Parent lends us no credibility > whatsoever and opens one to ridicule from people like me? I would like to > see a world, real or imagined, where parenthood is honored. The obvious answer is "because anybody can do it, and everyone knows someone who's botching the job horribly". My dad says the same thing about teachers; they have one of the more important professions, but there are no real measurables, and everyone has a different idea of what the "best" way is, and because most everyone's gone through school and had at least one teacher who shouldn't have been a teacher, most figure anybody can do it, therefore just "being a teacher" isn't exactly "special". Let's face it, there are PLENTY of people out there whose kids will become functioning members of society DESPITE them. Just having given birth ISN'T particularly honorable, especially with the earth as overpopulated as it is. Raising a child WELL should be, but how can you tell how good a job a parent's doing from an email .sig? Personally, I find all bragging in .sigs to be laughable, though, so I don't see any discrepancy in laughing at parental ones. Nothing someone says in a .sig "lends credibility" to their email arguments, to me. Too easy to fake, in the first place. *advertising* in a .sig is different from bragging, though. It might be subtle, but the difference is there. -Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 15:09:24 EST Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Lou Hoffman Subject: Re: Bujold's Mothers Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_67.ccd1e3.2aeda1f4_boundary" --part1_67.ccd1e3.2aeda1f4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Bridgett and all, I've been lurking through this discussion but... I love Bujold's Vorkosigan series, and I like the majority of the women in=20 the series. > While it is true that Cordelia fades to the background, so does her husban= d, > Aral. Though the first two books feature Cordelia as the main character, > the series itself is really about her son, Miles. Despite that, I think > that Cordelia remains a strong background presence throughout the series=20 > and > that, in general, women in the series are portrayed as powerful in whateve= r > role they choose. >=20 > My favorite female character in the series is Ivan=B9s mother, Alys. Alys > first comes into her own (in my opinion) when she gives birth to Ivan in a= n > abandoned room off a squalid alley in the middle of a war zone. Don't forget Drou and her daughters!=20 >=20 > Alys, like Cordelia, remains a background presence throughout the series, > and a very strong one. She pretty much rules the social sphere of the > Vorbarr Sultana, and has quite a lot of political influence. For example, > in CIVIL CAMPAIGN, there is a subplot in which Lord Dono (ne Donna) is > fighting (politically) for the right to inherit his estate. Alys is > instrumental in swinging the vote in his favor. (The fact that Donna had=20 > to > change sexes to inherit is the subject of another email, but it should be > noted that here the transgendered are represented in Bujold=B9s universe.) > There are also hints at the end of CIVIL CAMPAIGN that imply Alys is an > undercover intelligence officer with the highest clearance. Just a > meddling, matchmaking aunt? I don=B9t think so. I love the letter she sends to Miles regarding this. > The new woman on the scene is Ekaterin, who eventually marries Miles. I= =B9m > very interested to see what Bujold makes of her. When we first meet > Ekaterin, she is a young mother in an abusive relationship and is lacking > opportunities for personal growth. Ekaterin is a lady in the Vor sense, a > gracious aristocrat who is described in one of the books as being a touch > oversocialized. She is also the poor country cousin, and her relationship > with Miles is sort of a Cinderella story. On the surface, it doesn=B9t se= em > as if Ekaterin has much to offer feminists looking for strong women > characters, but she surprises us by doing extraordinary things (while > retaining her composure, of course). >=20 > Ekaterin is also a talented landscape architect who is able to explore her > vocation after the convenient death of her first husband. In trying to=20 > gain > her affection, Miles hires her to design a park. When Ekaterin discovers > his ulterior motive, she justly feels that her art has been devalued and > that she herself has been humiliated. Of course, Miles comes to see the > error of his ways and they live happily ever after, but the scenario leads > me to the following: >=20 > Pamela T. wrote: > < what one chooses, there is often a great deal of guilt and/or remorse -- > either for wasting one's personal potential, or for neglecting one's dutie= s > as a mother.>> >=20 > Why does it have to be either/or? Why is it that mothering (fathering, > nurturing) is not considered an appropriate outlet for one=B9s personal > potential? Why is parenting such an unacceptable choice? As a society, w= e > seem to believe that an intelligent, talented person is wasted as a full > time parent. Even (especially?) feminists devalue the work of the > traditional women=B9s sphere. This view is carried over into our science > fiction. >=20 I agree (and not just because I'm a parent). In fact, Ekaterin muses on just= =20 this, I believe in "Komar" the book prior to "A Civil Campaign". She is=20 thinking about her aunt and a paraphrase here "She was well respected in her= =20 field, could she have been at the top? She had three children; could she hav= e=20 had 6?"=20 > A kick-butt warrior woman who does an extraordinary deed is a hero and a > role model, despite the fact that she is just doing her job. A =B3spunky > little wife and mother=B2 who does an extraordinary deed is... What? Cute= ? > Perhaps just too stupid to know any better. Lou --part1_67.ccd1e3.2aeda1f4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Bridgett and all,

I've been lurking through this discussion but...

I love Bujold's Vorkosigan series, and I like the majority of the women in t= he series.

While it is true that Cordelia=20= fades to the background, so does her husband,
Aral.  Though the first two books feature Cordelia as the main characte= r,
the series itself is really about her son, Miles.  Despite that, I thin= k
that Cordelia remains a strong background presence throughout the series and=
that, in general, women in the series are portrayed as powerful in whatever<= BR> role they choose.

My favorite female character in the series is Ivan=B9s mother, Alys.  A= lys
first comes into her own (in my opinion) when she gives birth to Ivan in an<= BR> abandoned room off a squalid alley in the middle of a war zone.



Don't forget Drou and her da= ughters!


Alys, like Cordelia, remains a background presence throughout the series, and a very strong one.  She pretty much rules the social sphere of the<= BR> Vorbarr Sultana, and has quite a lot of political influence.  For examp= le,
in CIVIL CAMPAIGN, there is a subplot in which Lord Dono (ne Donna) is
fighting (politically) for the right to inherit his estate.  Alys is instrumental in swinging the vote in his favor.  (The fact that Donna h= ad to
change sexes to inherit is the subject of another email, but it should be noted that here the transgendered are represented in Bujold=B9s universe.) There are also hints at the end of CIVIL CAMPAIGN that imply Alys is an
undercover intelligence officer with the highest clearance.  Just a
meddling, matchmaking aunt?  I don=B9t think so.


I love the letter she sends to Miles regarding this.

The new woman on the scene is E= katerin, who eventually marries Miles.  I=B9m
very interested to see what Bujold makes of her.  When we first meet Ekaterin, she is a young mother in an abusive relationship and is lacking opportunities for personal growth.  Ekaterin is a lady in the Vor sense= , a
gracious aristocrat who is described in one of the books as being a touch oversocialized.  She is also the poor country cousin, and her relations= hip
with Miles is sort of a Cinderella story.  On the surface, it doesn=B9t= seem
as if Ekaterin has much to offer feminists looking for strong women
characters, but she surprises us by doing extraordinary things (while
retaining her composure, of course).

Ekaterin is also a talented landscape architect who is able to explore her vocation after the convenient death of her first husband.  In trying to= gain
her affection, Miles hires her to design a park.  When Ekaterin discove= rs
his ulterior motive, she justly feels that her art has been devalued and
that she herself has been humiliated.  Of course, Miles comes to see th= e
error of his ways and they live happily ever after, but the scenario leads me to the following:

Pamela T. wrote:
<<No matter
what one chooses, there is often a great deal of guilt and/or remorse --
either for wasting one's personal potential, or for neglecting one's duties<= BR> as a mother.>>

Why does it have to be either/or?  Why is it that mothering (fathering,=
nurturing) is not considered an appropriate outlet for one=B9s personal
potential?  Why is parenting such an unacceptable choice?  As a so= ciety, we
seem to believe that an intelligent, talented person is wasted as a full
time parent.  Even (especially?) feminists devalue the work of the
traditional women=B9s sphere.  This view is carried over into our scien= ce
fiction.


I agree (and not just becaus= e I'm a parent). In fact, Ekaterin muses on just this, I believe in "Komar"=20= the book prior to "A Civil Campaign". She is thinking about her aunt and a p= araphrase here "She was well respected in her field, could she have been at=20= the top? She had three children; could she have had 6?"


A kick-butt warrior woman who d= oes an extraordinary deed is a hero and a
role model, despite the fact that she is just doing her job.  A =B3spun= ky
little wife and mother=B2 who does an extraordinary deed is... What?  C= ute?
Perhaps just too stupid to know any better.



Lou
 --part1_67.ccd1e3.2aeda1f4_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 16:21:02 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Lori Errico-Seaman Subject: Re: "Firefly" Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu In-Reply-To: <3DBC349F.4FB65E19@mystgalaxy.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 10/27/02 1:46 PM, "Maryelizabeth Hart" wrote: > I've been watching "Firefly" too, Joell, and have mostly > positive feelings about it. I do like the married couple -- > Zoey and her husband -- and like the positive aspect of the > "Saloon girl" character being the one who lends the ragtag > band of outlaws respectability. Plus any current SF show > which doesn't make ships with whooshing noises and loud > bangs during the "space" shots gets extra points from me. Since I already de-lurked, why not post again? I too really like the married couple on "Firefly." Actually, I remember finding the way they are portrayed surprising, and then not being able to put my finger on *why* I found it so surprising. I think it's the combination of the pair being 1) an interracial couple, 2) a couple in which the wife has the more physically demanding and dangerous role, and 3) a couple that is portrayed as loving and caring without being cloying or mushy. There are so few representations of marriages founded on mutual respect on television, it's nice to see one. And, the fact that this is on a Joss Whedon show, where happy couples are seldom found, probably made it all the more surprising. I haven't been keeping up with "Firefly" since the first two episodes, but I think it's a relatively progressive show and definitely one of the more feminist-friendly programs on television at this point (particularly on FOX). Lori ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:57:24 -0500 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Pamela Taylor Subject: Re: Bujold's Mothers Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi, all, Bridgett writes, "Why does it have to be either/or? Why is it that mothering (fathering, nurturing) is not considered an appropriate outlet for onešs personal potential? Why is parenting such an unacceptable choice? As a society, we seem to believe that an intelligent, talented person is wasted as a full-time parent. Even (especially?) feminists devalue the work of the traditional womenšs sphere. This view is carried over into our science fiction." I don't know why, but it is what our society currently says. What really irks me is that statement about "the world will be a better place because I made a difference in the life of a child." Only because it is almost always used to refer to other people's children, not our own! I can say that I don't consider it a waste that I chose to devote a decade of my life exclusively to raising my children. However, reality is that when they are young it isn't very challenging intellectually or physically and it involves a great deal of boredom and repetitive routine. When they are older they are more intellectually stimulating, but that is for far fewer hours of the day, since they are in school much of the time, and there is still a lot of boring routine. Perhaps these realities of motherhood are not considered of interest to the sci-fi audience (or to anyone other than the mother herself, or even to the mother herself, half the time!). They certainly don't make for very glamourous plots, or a great deal of conflict other than the mother's internal turmoil and power struggles with two-year olds. Perhaps that is why the theme of the absent/antagonist mother is more prevalent when mothers do figure in a story? And why the portrayal often focuses on adult or adolescent children and their relation to their adult parents. It seems to me that there is a paucity of young children in sci-fi, period. (One obvious exception is Ender's Game (written by a man) which has been criticized for its portrayal of kids as adults. And once again, the parental figures are maniuplative, hostile or ineffectual in protecting their children.) Even where there are children, it seems like a communal style of childrearing is often posited. Children live in a creche or the society has universal daycare, etc. These sound on one level like an ideal situation -- children surrounded by lots of caring adults, parents freed up for careers, but it totally neglects the drive to individual parenting, the maternal/paternal instinct. I can't help but think that there would be a lot of frustrated individuals in such a society, both moms and dads, especially in those scenarios where the children go to the creche from the time they are born, it seems like a major step for humanity to take. Anyway, I do find it odd that you don't see many sci-fi writers asking what if there were a society where parenting (not mothering per se) was valued about all else. Or where mothers stood at the top of the status ladder (not in some sort of lip service to mothers like you see in so many contemporary relgious communities, but in real terms.) Or even where career and parenthood took equal footing. There are some really interesting societies that could result. Pamela (mom to t, s, a, n) _________________________________________________________________ Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:23:44 -0800 Reply-To: lquilter@boalthall.berkeley.edu Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: lquilter@BOALTHALL.BERKELEY.EDU Subject: Re: Bujold's Mothers Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE a couple other mothering stories to bring to the attention of the group =09le guin's "Solitude" (available in THE BIRTHDAY OF THE WORLD collection) - although told from the daughter's perspective, it's about a mother who takes her children with her on an anthropological field trip -- an extended mission. i think it's rather more insightful about mothering & the costs involved, than most sf ...=20 =09naomi mitchison's MEMOIRS OF A SPACEWOMAN holds up remarkably well =2E.. and definitely brings mothering into it, although less of a diaper-changing kind of mothering =09finally nalo hopkinson's BROWN GIRL IN THE RING has for its protagonist a young mother -- the focus isn't on mothering, but it's definitely present ...=20 On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, Pamela Taylor wrote: > Hi, all, >=20 > Bridgett writes, > "Why does it have to be either/or? Why is it that mothering (fathering, > nurturing) is not considered an appropriate outlet for one=B9s personal > potential? Why is parenting such an unacceptable choice? As a society, > we seem to believe that an intelligent, talented person is wasted as a > full-time parent. Even (especially?) feminists devalue the work of the > traditional women=B9s sphere. This view is carried over into our science > fiction." >=20 > I don't know why, but it is what our society currently says. What really > irks me is that statement about "the world will be a better place because= I > made a difference in the life of a child." Only because it is almost alw= ays > used to refer to other people's children, not our own! >=20 > I can say that I don't consider it a waste that I chose to devote a decad= e > of my life exclusively to raising my children. However, reality is that w= hen > they are young it isn't very challenging intellectually or physically and= it > involves a great deal of boredom and repetitive routine. When they are ol= der > they are more intellectually stimulating, but that is for far fewer hours= of > the day, since they are in school much of the time, and there is still a = lot > of boring routine. >=20 > Perhaps these realities of motherhood are not considered of interest to t= he > sci-fi audience (or to anyone other than the mother herself, or even to t= he > mother herself, half the time!). They certainly don't make for very > glamourous plots, or a great deal of conflict other than the mother's > internal turmoil and power struggles with two-year olds. Perhaps that is > why the theme of the absent/antagonist mother is more prevalent when moth= ers > do figure in a story? And why the portrayal often focuses on adult or > adolescent children and their relation to their adult parents. It seems = to > me that there is a paucity of young children in sci-fi, period. (One > obvious exception is Ender's Game (written by a man) which has been > criticized for its portrayal of kids as adults. And once again, the > parental figures are maniuplative, hostile or ineffectual in protecting > their children.) >=20 > Even where there are children, it seems like a communal style of > childrearing is often posited. Children live in a creche or the society = has > universal daycare, etc. These sound on one level like an ideal situation= -- > children surrounded by lots of caring adults, parents freed up for career= s, > but it totally neglects the drive to individual parenting, the > maternal/paternal instinct. I can't help but think that there would be a = lot > of frustrated individuals in such a society, both moms and dads, especial= ly > in those scenarios where the children go to the creche from the time they > are born, it seems like a major step for humanity to take. >=20 > Anyway, I do find it odd that you don't see many sci-fi writers asking wh= at > if there were a society where parenting (not mothering per se) was valued > about all else. Or where mothers stood at the top of the status ladder (= not > in some sort of lip service to mothers like you see in so many contempora= ry > relgious communities, but in real terms.) Or even where career and > parenthood took equal footing. There are some really interesting societi= es > that could result. >=20 >=20 > Pamela > (mom to t, s, a, n) >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:57:19 -0800 Reply-To: susan@perspective.com Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Susan Kornfeld Subject: Re: SF Mothers (failed recipient check) Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT from L. Quilter: >...finally nalo hopkinson's BROWN GIRL IN THE RING has for its protagonist a young mother -- the focus isn't on mothering, but it's definitely present ... > Nalo was a keynote speaker at the last WisCon and she said that at times during writing the book she questioned the wisdom of trying to have her heroine breastfeed while trying to save the world, but added that "what I learned was that breastfeeding is part of saving the world." Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 22:00:34 -0800 Reply-To: susan@perspective.com Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Susan Kornfeld Subject: Re: SF Mothers Comments: To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=x-mac-roman; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Pamela writes > >Anyway, I do find it odd that you don't see many sci-fi writers asking whatif there were a society where parenting (not mothering per se) was valued about all else. Or where mothers stood at the top of the status ladder (not in some sort of lip service to mothers like you see in so many contemporary relgious communities, but in real terms.) Or even where career and parenthood took equal footing. There are some really interesting societies that could result. > Yeah, Ursula Le Guin wrote once wondering "what literature would be like if childbirth and mothering occupied the kind of position that sex and romantic love have occupied in literature and art for the last five hundred years, or that warfare has occupied since literature began.? Susan > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:30:13 -0600 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Joanne Campbell Tidwell Subject: Re: SF Mothers Comments: cc: FEMINISTSF-LIT@uic.edu In-Reply-To: <3DBCD282.1010209@perspective.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Try Charlotte Perkins Gilman's _Herland_ for mothering as ultimate existence. Joanne Campbell Tidwell Graduate Teaching Assistant 9030 Haley Center Auburn University, Alabama 36849 (334) 844-9001 On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, Susan Kornfeld wrote: > Pamela writes > > > >Anyway, I do find it odd that you don't see many sci-fi writers asking whatif > there were a society where parenting (not mothering per se) was valued about > all else. Or where mothers stood at the top of the status ladder (not in some > sort of lip service to mothers like you see in so many contemporary relgious > communities, but in real terms.) Or even where career and parenthood took equal > footing. There are some really interesting societies that could result. > > > > Yeah, Ursula Le Guin wrote once wondering "what literature would be like if > childbirth and mothering occupied the kind of position that sex and romantic > love have occupied in literature and art for the last five hundred years, or > that warfare has occupied since literature began.? > > Susan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:32:43 -0800 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: SF Mothers Comments: To: Feminist SF/F Lit In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:30 PM 10/28/2002 -0600, Joanne Campbell Tidwell wrote: > Try Charlotte Perkins Gilman's _Herland_ for mothering as ultimate >existence. Herland was unsatisfying to me, partly because the women of Herland seemed to have no real sexuality at all. At least until the men come along. I don't know whether the author simply couldn't imagine lesbians or whether she deliberately didn't allow the possibility into her utopia to avoid the censors. Whichever was the case, the resulting utopia is so free of sexuality that it fit right in with Victorian sensibilities of "proper" female behavior. The three women who decide to undertake sexual reproduction do so without any taint of actually *wanting* to experience sexual relations, but only undertake it out of a desire to have a zygotic child formed from two gametes instead of miraculously. Herland also seems to owe a debt to Lamarck, since the inhabitants seemingly evolve by wishing to be better women, and practising good habits. On the other hand, Phillip Jose Farmer once wrote a short story, Mother, in which a race of alien creatures have no males, and fertilize themselves by forcing any sort of animal to "rape" them before eating them. Farmer is noted for incorporating weird sexual practices into much of his fiction. Farmer's "Mother" is so upset by the idea of biological motherhood that she eats the first one she runs across and feeds the digested woman to her own son, who lapses into a sort of womb-surrounded pre-natality. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:13:31 +1100 Reply-To: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Sender: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia From: Deborah Biancotti Subject: Radical feminism Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Right. So what WE seem to be talking about in this thread is BOURGEOIS or LIBERAL feminism, a feminism that simply gives women the power to destroy on an equal plane with men, which is cool, for what it's worth, but maybe we need to start a new thread that would try to identify the strains of RADICAL or REVOLUTIONARY feminism in Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Speculative Fiction. Where is the more wholistic brand of feminism manifest? Where is the evidence of WOMANISM?< Art, this is such an interesting question, but I have no idea how to approach it. Perhaps you can start us off ...? Deborah _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963