>NH: Joel? A response to this one? Sean's right that women in most Dune
>societies could fight, could be scientists, but I agree with you; most of
>the cultures seemed basically sexist, only I can't formulate concrete
>arguments about it this pre-coffee morning.
>
>As I recall, though, the Fish Speakers were not an independent sect.
>They were subordinate to the men, sort of trained fighting machines, the
>way I've heard King Shaka Zulu's army of women described.
>
>-nalo
>
>On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote:
>
>> >Fremen. Women owned by men (Paul won his first wife by killing her
>> >husband) polygamous, not polyandrous (as I recall and I am probably
>> >messing up the formal definitions) Men were the warriors.
>>
>> Uh-uh--women fought, too.
>> Also, it was more that Paul took responsibility for the man's family than
>> that he won the wife. It's more like this: you kill a Fremen brother, you
>> don't get off scot-free--you take responsibility for his family so they're
>> not left so high and dry.
>>
>> >
>> >Social structure. Royal title through male descent. Women political
>> >pawns (emporer's daughter), prostitutes, and playthings (emporer's
>> >"gifts"). Mentats: men. Security: men. Soldiers: men.
>> >
>> What about the Fish Speakers? (mighta been in later books)
>>
>>
>> >
>> >So, my assesment is that it is extremely sexist. With some small power
>> >given to some freakish women that no one much likes. Perhaps that is
>> >better than much, but I think there is better still.
>> >
>> >-- Joel VanLaven
Nalo,
Here's from the _Dune Encyclopedia_ (copyright 1984 by Dr. Willis
E. McNeely, from Berkley Books): "The first step leading to the
establishment of the Fish Speakers as a military force came in the regency
of Alia. In 10210, Alia brought about the dissolution of the Fedaykin by
various legal strategems, and within a year or two afterwards, Paul's elite
force no longer existed as a military organization. The Fedaykin were
never a very large group, consisting of perhaps 50,000 men at its maximum,
but their effectiveness was all out of proportion to their numbers. They
provided the spearhead of many campaigns and furnished an experienced cadre
around which later battle groups were formed. By disbanding them, Alia
sought to forestall the possibility of a military hero's winning popular
support and challenging the rule she exercised through her priesthood and
civil bureaucracy. The harvest of her labor was reaped by Leto II."
So they were started by a woman and not under women then, but after
Alia was gone, Leto II took over and then, yes, they were under male
control.
-Sean (ask me most anything about Dune and I can come up w/an answer, or
find one in the Encyclopedia--I love it!)
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