========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 19:31:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: Hello! MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi all! I'm new to this list but have just read through the logs of the last couple of weeks so I can say with certainty that I'm glad to be here! I'm a reference librarian at Michigan State University, and also the library's women's studies specialist. I've been casually interested in science fiction by women (among other reading interests) for a long time, but have recently been pursuing it more actively. It's exciting - there's a whole lot out there to read! Regarding the question of whether science fiction was an influence when I was young - I started watching Star Trek reruns when I was about 10 and for a long time, that *was* science fiction for me. Never read Heinlein; I remember reading the first two or three books of Asimov's Foundation trilogy but didn't like it much; read and enjoyed most of Arthur C. Clarke's short stories. But the SF author I *really* loved as a teenager was Zenna Henderson. (Pilgrimage: The Book of the People; The People: No Different Flesh; The Anything Box) Her stories are full of wonderful strong female characters. At the moment I'm reading The Pillow Friend by Lisa Tuttle. Anybody else read or liked this? Ruth Ann Jones rujones@delphi.com jonesr@pilot.msu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 19:32:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: gender and technology Comments: To: gjsavag@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Responding to the question about sf novels for a course in gender and technology, here are some titles that might be worth considering: The first one that springs to mind is "Trouble and Her Friends" by Melissa Scott; this was published only a few years ago and I am sure the paperback edition is still in print. It's a cyperpunk story set about 100 years in the future. Trouble is a young woman who supports herself doing semi-legal computer security jobs using more or less illegal neural implants. The virtual reality passages of the book are pretty stunning and, in addition to having a lesbian main character, there are additional reflections on gender in the form of observations about how women of both orientations, gay men, and minority men and women make up most of the net "underground" and are the only people willing to use the effective- but-dangerous brain implants. A couple of other suggestions that might fall under the heading of anti-technology, or critiques of the technological society: "Into the Forest" by Jean Hegland (maybe spelled Heglund?) - just published by Calyx Books, and I hear a mainstream publisher has purchased the rights. Takes place in the near future. Two teenage sisters living outside a remote rural town in Northern California have only each other to depend on as American society begins to collapse under the weight of social problems and excessive consumption of natural resources. "The Ragged World" and "Time, Like an Ever-Rolling Stream" by Judith Moffet - twenty years or so into the future, alien visitors come to Earth and decide human beings ought not to be trusted with a planet of their own, since we're destroying the one we have, and so begin to take control of most aspects of material existence, including agriculture, manufacturing, and reproduction, to force human society to adapt to more responsible use of the Earth's resources. As I recall, gender roles of the various characters are not given a great deal of attention, but it would be interesting to see if the differing philosophies regarding care of the Earth are associated with "traditionally" male or female qualities. Best of luck with your course. --Ruth Ann Jones rujones@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 01:24:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Greg Rubinson Subject: Re: Hello! Comments: To: Ruth Ann Jones In-Reply-To: <01IH342MKS769GW0HL@delphi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ruth, I LOVE LISA Tuttle. Have you had a cahnce to read _A Spaceship Built of Stones_? Especially "Husbands" and "Wives"--excellent for a critique of gender roles. I taught them with moderate success to a freshman English class. Any other Lisa Tuttle fans out there? -Greg Rubinson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 07:57:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Identifying with male protagonists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Qhyrrae Michaelieu wrote: "I also identified with the male protagonists. I wonder how that affects one's sense of being a woman, when the positive role models you have are almost all male. Does it lead to a rejection of the female or a transcendence of gender?" Excellent question! In speaking with women about childhood and teen reading habits and the lack of female models, some say they never ID'd with male "heroes." They rejected those stories and instead sought out fiction with strong female characters. I always identified with the male characters, and recall becoming disoriented when the protagonist formed relationships with women, or weak female characters appeared. One could do both--reject the female stereotype AND transcend gender (the first doesn't preclude the second)--and view oneself and others as humans first, females or males second. At least, some of us appear to be much better than men generally are at acknowledging and emphasizing the commonalities among humans, rather than focusing on the differences (gender, race, class, sexual orientation). Perhaps having few female role models contributes to this attitude. Or, it could be a matter of developing the skills necessary to survive as a member of a subordinate class--know your oppressors! Or simply fulfilling the mediator role expected of females? Qhyrrae Michaelieu wrote: "But now almost all of what I read is written about women characters and written by women. I see it as the need to redress all the old imbalances of what was available when I was a kid." I too read mostly female authors now, although for a different reason. The works of many male authors bore me or infuriate me. Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 10:33:37 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: Identifying with male protagonists Comments: cc: pandolfo@macbsd.com In-Reply-To: <19970330125110.22440.qmail@ns.potsdam.edu>; from Judith A. Little on Mar 03, 1997 at 07:57:43AM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii [Hi. Just a reminder that there are some men who are interested in these topics, too :-) I'm also copying my wife on this as I don't believe that she's subscribed to this list yet.] Qhyrrae Michaelieu wrote: > "I also identified with the male protagonists. I wonder how that affects > one's sense of being a woman, when the positive role models you have are > almost all male. Does it lead to a rejection of the female or a > transcendence of gender?" To which "Judith A. Little" responded: > Excellent question! In speaking with women about childhood and teen > reading habits and the lack of female models, some say they never ID'd with > male "heroes." I find that rather interesting as I tend to identify with the protagonist--which is why I found Piercy's _WOtEoT_ to be painful (but I loved it). Perhaps it's easier for a male since the vast majority of the protagonists in books are male (I expect that's still the case, anyway). In hindsight (perhaps blurred ;-), I don't recall even being disoriented by relationships, although I do recall rolling my eyes at the weak and/or 1-dimensional ("dimensionally-challenged"?) female characters. Moving back to an earlier thread of discussion... I read a lot of Heinlein growing up, and still love his books, but in the last 5-10 years (I'm going on 27 years of age), I've been noticing more his characterizations of men and women. I believe that someone made the point that his women seem to all (eventually) aspire to motherhood above all else. I can't recall any counterexamples, off-hand... I am curious, though, what women thought of a couple of his female characters--specifically Maureen Johnson and Hazel Stone. I'm also curious what folks think of _I Will Fear No Evil_. I'll reserve comment on them for now. I also find it interesting how different people react to Heinlein. My father is gay and he remembered Heinlein as being very anti-homosexual. I rather got the opposite reaction. -allen PS. As a bit of introduction... I'm a computer programmer who has read a fairly wide smattering of sci-fi and some fantasy. I'm starting to read more critically these days. I consider myself a feminist, but I haven't read too much by women. Some authors that I like (and remember right now ;-) are Marge Piercy, Patricia Wrede, Pat Murphy, Sheri Tepper, Diane Duane, and Octavia Butler -- Allen Briggs - end killing - briggs@macbsd.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 11:21:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Identifying with male protagonists In-Reply-To: <19970330103337.38335@puma.macbsd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I just joined this list. I'm a woman living in Toronto, Canada. Just finished reading the archives, so you're still all a blur in my mind. Someone talked about slowly realising that all Heinlein's women characters were strong, brainy women; except when it came to their relationships with men. I had the same slow discovery. I think it crystallized about the point of _Time Enough For Love,_ and by the time that _Friday_ came out, I couldn't stand to read his writing any more. I've been reading sf in one form or another since I was a kid. I think I was able to find good female (and *child*) role models because I read a lot of kid's fantasy, where my sense is that there were more women and girl protagonists. I did identify with male protagonists, though, and I remember the unconscious splitting of my awareness that I had to do in order to accomplish it. And it wasn't that hard; since most of the protagonists I was reading at the time were adult, and adulthood all by itself was such unknown territory, breasts were just as alien to my concept of self as penises (penii?) But it was still strange. I read a lot of Marvel Comics (didn't like DC so much). Really identified with Thor, the Silver Surfer, the Sub-Mariner and Daredevil. Now, let me recomplicate this: I'm Black. I find it as amusing as horrifying that I managed to convince myself that Daredevil was Black, but ONLY WHEN HE WORE HIS COSTUME. I knew quite well that his alter-ego was a White man, but I got confused if I tried to think about that too much. It was nice when Marvel came out with the African Ororo/Storm character (but girl, that pressed hair has got to go!). But now I'm slightly off topic. When I first discovered the feminist (and new wave, to be fair) writing in sf, my reading of it really took off. It finally stoped being solely escapism and began to have something to say to *me* and the things I was struggling with. I remember devouring Elizabeth Lyn's work, and Ursula Le Guin, and, and... I remember discovering Samuel Delany's _Dhalgren_ and that was mind-blowing, and moving on to read _Triton,_ and for the first time starting to think about was gender means. Someone said something about Whoopi Goldberg having been inspired by Nichelle Nichols. Well, I think Whoopi's repaid the favour, because for me, seeing the movie "Jumping Jack Flash" (anyone remember that? I think it was her first, before she had to go commercial, and it was nominally sf, since so much computer hacking was involved) was the first time I'd seen a character I could identify with up on the big screen. And she got the guy, too. She wasn't the loyal sidekick who gets killed off poignantly near the end and never gets to kiss anyone. -nalo "Words. She knows so many. She knows seven languages, and all of them different, and in all of them she is hungry." -Candas Jane Dorsey, _Black Wine_ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 11:38:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: Re: Hello! MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >I LOVE LISA Tuttle. Have you had a cahnce to read _A Spaceship Built of >Stones_? Especially "Husbands" and "Wives"--excellent for a critique of >gender roles. I taught them with moderate success to a freshman English >class. Any other Lisa Tuttle fans out there? I haven't read those but will look for them, because I really liked "The Pillow Friend." Finished it last night (I was only half way through when I sent that post) and my God, was the ending ever creepy! --Ruth Ann (both names please, not "Ruth") ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 15:23:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Hello! In a message dated 97-03-30 11:42:04 EST, RUJONES@DELPHI.COM (Ruth Ann Jones) writes: << >I LOVE LISA Tuttle. Have you had a cahnce to read _A Spaceship Built of >Stones_? Especially "Husbands" and "Wives"--excellent for a critique of >gender roles. I taught them with moderate success to a freshman English >class. Any other Lisa Tuttle fans out there? I haven't read those but will look for them, because I really liked "The Pillow Friend." Finished it last night (I was only half way through when I sent that post) and my God, was the ending ever creepy! >> I haven't read _The Pillow Friend_ because I find that Tuttle's later work doesn't hold my interest to the extent that, say, her work in _A Spaceship Built of Stone_ does. The latter is a marvellous collection of short fiction; beautiful, clear, and strong. Some of her later short fiction has, in my opinion, become...oh, I don't know, "unpleasant" is the best word I can come up--unpleasant for sake of unpleasantness: no great insights into anything, no exploration, no mulling, just...unpleasant. (I promise to expand my vocabulary Real Soon Now.) What did you like about _The Pillow Friend_, Ruth Ann? Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 20:54:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: The Pillow Friend (was: Hello!) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Nicola commented: >I haven't read _The Pillow Friend_ because I find that Tuttle's later work >doesn't hold my interest to the extent that, say, her work in _A Spaceship >Built of Stone_ does. The latter is a marvellous collection of short >fiction; beautiful, clear, and strong. Some of her later short fiction has, >in my opinion, become...oh, I don't know, "unpleasant" is the best word I can >come up--unpleasant for sake of unpleasantness: no great insights into >anything, no exploration, no mulling, just...unpleasant. (I promise to >expand my vocabulary Real Soon Now.) > >What did you like about _The Pillow Friend_, Ruth Ann? Oh, well, it wasn't a 'feel good' story, that's for sure! But I did find it fairly compelling. I won't give away the ending, but let me put in a little spoiler space to save anyone who might want to read this later from my preconceptions-- s p a c e t h e f i n a l f r o n t i e r _The Pillow Friend_ follows a young woman, Agnes Grey, from age six to about age thirty. Before her seventh birthday she wishes for a doll that would be alive and tell her stories at night, and she gets her wish, in a way. At first it seems like she's just a kid letting her imagination run away with her. (Anybody here read _Sam, Bangs, and Moonshine_ when they were little?) But, as she gets older, the fantasy intrudes on her life in more overt and disturbing ways. One thing I liked about it was how I kept having to reconsider whether I thought there really was something supernatural going on, or whether Agnes was out of touch with reality. (What most people around her would have called reality, anyway - she was clearly in touch with her *own* reality.) Whichever it is, the 'fantasy' seems to be more fulfilling than anything she can find in so-called real life, and it influences her to do things that, from an outside perspective, don't seem likely to make her very happy. For example, she marries a man who's really a self-centered jerk because he's part of the illusion. To Agnes it doesn't matter what a jerk he is, what she's getting out of the relationship is something else entirely. It's not the kind of book that you enjoy because you grow to care about the characters, even Agnes. She's not unlikeable or impossible to feel sympathy for, but the feeling that she was unknowable got in the way of caring about her. At the end of the book I wasn't sure whether to say "Poor Agnes, she got her wish," or "Lucky Agnes, she got her wish!" But, it was definitely thought-provoking. --Ruth Ann ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 09:43:30 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gessika Rovario Subject: Influence of Sci Fi on Women Hi all. This is my first post to this list, so feel free to yell at me if I'm not following the protocol. ;^] FE> I was already an adult by the time Star Trek appeared. But the FE>female characters on ST didn't depart too much from the same stereotypes. FE> Judith I agree with Judith about Star Trek. Whenever I bring this up, someone always says "But what about Nichelle Nichols {Uhura}?" Well, she was, in effect, the telephone operator, and she never questioned any order. So, while she was conspicuious, I never saw her as strong. But, I don't think SF {or Fantasy for that matter} in any form had a derogatory effect on the way I felt about myself as a girl or later, as a woman. But then, I was raised in the seventies/eighties, so there were many more strong sci-fi fems out there. Gessi gessika.rovario@eriss.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 13:01:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: sf influences, and heinlen In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I just have to start by saying how much I'm enjoying this list. I posted once earlier, but didn't introduce myself. I'm from Toronto (hi Nalo! happy to see a local crowd), I'm a lawyer, currently serving injured workers with compensation problems, an out & proud lesbian, and a long time science fiction fan (among a host of other identities). I'm fortunate that my first real introduction to sf was when my older sister gave me the first Women of Wonder collection, I think I was around 10. I'd read L'Engle but hadn't really thought about sf as a genre. I loved WOW and began reading other works by the women in it. In particular I read a lot of Marion Zimmer Bradley at first, and while I see her work with a more ciritical eye now I still have a very warm place in my heart for her work. I think my love of science fiction was nurtured by the fact that I started out reading only works by women. Later I decided I should broaden my horizons and read some of the much lauded male authors. I consulted a male friend who was also a big sf fan and he suggested Heinlein's Friday to me. When I started it I felt violently assaulted myself at the gang rape scene, and horrified by the female character's reaction to it. It was years before I would read another sf book written by a man, and while I've enjoyed some Asimov and other things it's still rare for me to read works by men. Looking for good new feminist sf has become itself a pleasure for me, a treasure hunt I indulge in when I can find time. Some of my favourite authors include Melissa Scott, Pamela Sargeant, Bradley, Nancy Kress, Joan Vinge, Vonda McIntyre, and many more. Robin. "I view it as something of a nightmare that the sodomites are so brazen." Bigot Jesse Helms ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 12:41:23 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:14 3/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >> Christine Roane's project sounds interesting. She appears to be >>emphasizing positive influences and this made me wonder if others were >>negatively influenced by early Sci Fi...I was. > >I too grew up on the Heinlein juveniles. When my daughters insisted they >wouldn't read a story "without a heroine," I looked back over Podkayne of >Mars and was appalled! I think, though,I avoided too much negative >influence because my reading also covered Norton fantasies, Ace Doubles, >and the Swallows and Amazons series--all of which had SOME strong >women--and when I read Heinline, I was constantly but silently rewriting >the "hero" part for ME! > Me, too. _Space Cadet_ didn't have any women in it, but I never could see why not, so I wrote myself in as a candidate. Looking back, I think the general a-sexuality of juvenile SF helped there. Since none of the 'men' were really interested in women, the role-reversal aspect didn't bother me at all. Anything they could do, I could do at least as well. Martha Bartter Truman State University mbartter@truman.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 14:03:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Sells Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women In-Reply-To: <199703311748.LAA95542@piglet.cc.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > always says "But what about Nichelle Nichols {Uhura}?" Well, she was, > in effect, the telephone operator, and she never questioned any order. > So, while she was conspicuious, I never saw her as strong. True, but we should also consider her historical circumstance. When TOS came on, just her presence was groundbreaking, not to mention the interracial kiss thing (of course, then we could get into the politics of oversexualizing women of color). I'm sure you've heard the standard story of Nichols being talked out of quitting by Martin Luther King because her very presence -did- make an impact, and then the standard story later of Mae Jameison (or however you spell it), "the black woman" astronaut, going into the space program because of Uhuru. There are times when even visibility alone is radical and progressive. Cheers, Laura Sells ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 14:49:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M. Daphne Kutzer" Organization: SUNY at Plattsburgh, New York, USA Subject: Lt. Uhuru MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Date sent: 31-MAR-1997 14:45:52 SLightly off topic, but I can't resist. Sunday's NY Times reported that one of the Heaven's Gate people who killed himself was Nichelle Nicols' brother. [Insert Twilight Zone music here]. RE: influence of SF on women. I didn't read a whole lot of SF as a kid, primarily because it was *so* male oriented and also way too technological- -who cared about the space engine, I wanted to know about the people! I did , however, like Bradley and Zenna Henderson (is that her name? looks slightly wrong to me), and lots of Ray Bradbury--the spooky stories as well as "Martian Chronicles," which I adored. Looking back, it was stories where people and their stories predominated, not where science predominated , that got me going. (Oh--I also like John Wyndham, and still do). And when "Women of Wonder" came out, I was hooked. I'm still pretty durned picky about what SF I will read. Daphne M.Daphne Kutzer Professor of English State University of New York "A word after a word after Plattsburgh, NY 12901 A word is power." voicemail: 518-564-2427 (Margaret Atwood) fax: 518-564-2140 email: kutzerdm@splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 16:32:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: I heard that the character of Uhuru was supposed to be much more than an overgrown phone operator, but that the show started to get some scary letters, including death threats, about a Black woman's presence on the show, and the producers got scared and pressured Roddenberry into writing her role smaller and smaller. -nalo On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, Laura Sells wrote: > > always says "But what about Nichelle Nichols {Uhura}?" Well, she was, > > in effect, the telephone operator, and she never questioned any order. > > So, while she was conspicuious, I never saw her as strong. > > True, but we should also consider her historical circumstance. When TOS > came on, just her presence was groundbreaking, not to mention the > interracial kiss thing (of course, then we could get into the politics of > oversexualizing women of color). I'm sure you've heard the standard story > of Nichols being talked out of quitting by Martin Luther King because her > very presence -did- make an impact, and then the standard story later of > Mae Jameison (or however you spell it), "the black woman" astronaut, going > into the space program because of Uhuru. There are times when even > visibility alone is radical and progressive. > > Cheers, > Laura Sells > "Words. She knows so many. She knows seven languages, and all of them different, and in all of them she is hungry." -Candas Jane Dorsey, _Black Wine_ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 00:22:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: Mainstream Fiction vs. Sci Fi, Children's Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Judith: Yes... Did my graduate work on children's sci fi -- she wrote a trilogy called THE EARTHSEA TRILOGY that she later (20 years or so) came back to, writing a fourth book called TEHANU. Pretty complex, and perhaps not a young adult book at all. (I'm still thinking it through, anyway.) Has anyone read Le Guin's essays -- DANCING ON THE EDGE OF THE WORLD-- ? -Lissa >Following up on Daphne's comments, did anyone else know that LeGuin writes >children's fiction? She's often published in Cricket magazine for 8-12 >year olds, and has written several children's books that fall in the >gender-bender category. (I know because I keep buying them for my 8 >year-old grandson!) > > Judith > > > >************************************************************************* >Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam > Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu > >*********************************************************************** elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat instructor, english pancakes for dinner. virginia tech blacksburg, va 24061-0112 ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 00:58:38 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sitting in my office late at night -- had to add to Judith's discussion. I never read Sci-Fi until college, when I took Len Hatfield's class (here at Virginia Tech) called "Speculative Fiction." I don't know if he disguised the course title for those students like me who would have never ever ever taken a course on what we thought was bimbos and blasters pulp, or if he used the new titling to better explain the emerging/growing genre. We certainly didn't read Heinlein or Asimov, so I don't quite know enough about the works I so readily scoff. All I know about such authors comes from my sad, albeit quiet, dismay of the cover designs on such texts. (I am one of those who gravitates towards beautiful covers. Yes.) The only woman I know who can wear such fashions displayed on such covers is Sherah, Princess of Power. And her hair and horse are both pink. I have not read any Marge Piercy. I will. -lissa elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat instructor, english pancakes for dinner. virginia tech blacksburg, va 24061-0112 ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 01:16:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Does it lead to a rejection of the female or a >transcendence of gender? >Qhyrrae Michaelieu Qhyrrae: I think, for me, it did neither, thank goodness. I never read Heinlein or any of the others that are being discussed... but in all the other genres the problem seemed to be the same: too few strong women. Remarkably, the first strong women I found were in Sci-Fi... the one's I read in college. Le Guin's in particular. Especially the women in TEHANU. I also read Samual Delaney's novels (can't remember the titles right now) and found myself, there, too. These women seem to be not so much technical, as they are of old-world-intuition- strong witch-mother types. So it's kinda strangely nifty that the genre that started from technical ponderings and progress glorifying (and portraying females as only sex objects) grew into a genre where women protagonists use/find their strenth from sources, perhaps stronger, than technology... also... i wonder about our word "hero." perhaps this word implies too much of what we are NOT looking for in a female character. (the linear hunt -- the tackle -- the bagging of the goods.) Which reminds me of Le Guin's essay called "The Carrier Bag of Fiction." There, she writes that novels are good because they are stories about people -- rather than heroes. hmmmm....must reread. -Lissa elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat instructor, english pancakes for dinner. virginia tech blacksburg, va 24061-0112 ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:05:35 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Mainstream Fiction vs. Sci Fi, Children's Books In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Le Guin's also done some wonderful books for younger children, the Catwings series of low-level chapter books, for example, and several picture books. Mike Levy On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > Judith: Yes... Did my graduate work on children's sci fi -- she wrote a > trilogy called THE EARTHSEA TRILOGY that she later (20 years or so) came > back to, writing a fourth book called TEHANU. Pretty complex, and perhaps > not a young adult book at all. (I'm still thinking it through, anyway.) > > Has anyone read Le Guin's essays -- DANCING ON THE EDGE OF THE WORLD-- ? > > -Lissa > > > >Following up on Daphne's comments, did anyone else know that LeGuin writes > >children's fiction? She's often published in Cricket magazine for 8-12 > >year olds, and has written several children's books that fall in the > >gender-bender category. (I know because I keep buying them for my 8 > >year-old grandson!) > > > > Judith > > > > > > > >************************************************************************* > >Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam > > Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu > > > >*********************************************************************** > > elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat > > instructor, english pancakes for dinner. > virginia tech > blacksburg, va 24061-0112 > ebloomer@vt.edu > 540.231.2445 >