========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:53:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Andrea L. Klein" Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > also... i wonder about our word "hero." perhaps this word implies too much > of what we are NOT looking for in a female character. (the linear hunt -- > the tackle -- the bagging of the goods.) Which reminds me of Le Guin's > essay called "The Carrier Bag of Fiction." There, she writes that novels > are good because they are stories about people -- rather than heroes. > hmmmm....must reread. Perhaps it does, but is there a better choice? Le Guin asserts that the proper place for the hero is the epic, or at least not the novel, where s/he can be propped up on a pedestal in a directed, linear narrative. The novel, she argues, is a collection of relationships that can only be distorted by the presence of a hero. I'm not sure. With a looser definition of hero as simply a human ideal, a respected or respectable actor in society, the novel might be considered the ideal place to discuss the hero and his/her relation to society. I don't think the hero has to be one-dimensional or universal. At least I'm writing a thesis that discusses some very different sf protagonists as heroes, most of whom do not follow the classical, linear model. The women I'm writing about quest for wholeness and autonomy, not "the bagging of the goods," except in the most metaphorical sense. Maybe the hero and heroism simply need to be re-defined. I can't be sure that the women I'm writing about are, on some objective scale, heroic, but if they are, they are constructing a more varied heroic. (btw, I'm writing on Heinlein's _Friday_, Butler's _Parable of the Sower_, Piercy's _Woman on the Edge of Time_, Piercy's _He, She, and It_ [heroes w/o heroic narrative], Tepper's _The Gate to Women's Country [heroic narrative w/o a hero], and Russ's _The Female Man_ and Cadigan's _Fools_ as fragmented heroes.) Any thoughts on how we might define the female hero? Could she, or should she, ever follow the classical/traditional model (of departure-initiation-return, mysterious and illustrious birth, dragon-slaying, threshold-crossing, etc.)? Does sf propose a different female hero, do you think, than society or mainstream lit? Questions I'm wrestling with :) Andrea Klein alklein@wesleyan.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:07:32 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Le Guin and others in new book Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Le Guin is listed for _A Ride on the Red Mare's Back_ in _Great Books for Girls_, with no reference to her other works. It seems to have a lot of choices I agree with, and does list 600 books of various sorts: fiction and non-fiction, divided by reading levels. Other authors listed include Tanith Lee, Brian Jacques, Jane Yolen, Patricia Wrede and Emma Bull. I plan to use it mostly for adding to the library of my toddler boy, but am pleased to see the number of books I've bought through the years for his 11 year old sister that are on the list. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:33:56 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: question re: dystopias, reproductive technologies & women Comments: To: Tamara Adamson , feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This is a question generated from the feminist-sf web pages. Anyone have any ideas for Tamara? (Tamara, I'm cc:ing this question to a feminist science fiction listserve. For more information on research into literary criticisms of dystopias, I'd suggest searching WOMEN'S STUDIES INDEX for feminist critiques of reproductive technology -- there's lots out there -- and the MLA BIBLIOGRAPHY for critiques of dystopias. Both of these databases/indexes should be available at most major university libraries. For search tips try http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/femsf/searchterms.html . For more information about this discussion group see http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/femsf/feministsflist.html . Good luck.) Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:53:00 -0600 From: "UIC Web Form Mailerweb_mailer"@uic.edu Reply-To: Fem-SFFU maintenance listserve To: FEMSFWEB@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: femsf feedback Name: Tamara Adamson Email: adam1153@blue.univnorthco.edu I am a: sf fan\0researcher\0feminist I found this page by looking for: science fiction My comment concerns: question OK to post on bulletin board: bulletin board OK Please respond as soon as possible My comments are: I am doing a paper on Aldous Huxley's Brave New World and what a woman's place in a society with bottled babies would be. I am having a hard time finding material on any feminist literary criticisms concerning dystopias. Please help! Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:22:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: dystopias and reproductive technology Comments: cc: "adam1153@blue.univnorthco.edu" Tamara, As Laura suggested, your university library will undoubtedly have the MLA Bibliography, which will lead you to literary criticism on dystopian literature. It will probably also have _Women Studies Abstracts_ which indexes scholarly research in women's studies. Another index which will help you find feminist critiques of reproductive technology is _Alternative Press Index_ which covers feminist magazines and newspapers. There is also a CD-ROM database called _Contemporary Women's Issues_ which includes both scholarly and popular material. Ask your library staff if this is available. Also, the following book should provide references to relevant books and articles: Author: Booker, M. Keith. Title: Dystopian literature : a theory and research guide Published: Westport, Conn. : Greenwood Press, 1994. Good luck on your paper-- --Ruth Ann Jones Women's Studies Specialist Michigan State University Libraries ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 07:34:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Oh, those covers! I think my history of reading sf has been one of ignoring the evidence of my eyes. Friends who read 'serious' literature roll their eyes in alarm when they look at my bookshelves. I've given up pleading that there's real writing between those covers. I've read whole Samuel Delany novels, looking in vain for the people portrayed on the cover (and being quite happy not to find them, but wondering what in the world the publisher was thinking). And I've heard snatches of an sf writer's filksong that laments, "there's a bimbo on the cover of my book." Publishers pick the cover art, and it seems they have little respect for the intelligence of their readers. I wonder how many potential readers they scare away brass-bra'd bimbos? I think that Warner has done well by Octavia Butler with the paperback editions of her work, and I was pleasantly stunned to realise that the Ace paperback cover of Emma Bull's _Bone Dance_ responds excellently to the contents. -nalo On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > Sitting in my office late at night -- had to add to Judith's discussion. > I never read Sci-Fi until college, when I took Len Hatfield's class (here > at Virginia Tech) called "Speculative Fiction." I don't know if he > disguised the course title for those students like me who would have never > ever ever taken a course on what we thought was bimbos and blasters pulp, > or if he used the new titling to better explain the emerging/growing genre. > We certainly didn't read Heinlein or Asimov, so I don't quite know enough > about the works I so readily scoff. All I know about such authors comes > from my sad, albeit quiet, dismay of the cover designs on such texts. (I > am one of those who gravitates towards beautiful covers. Yes.) The only > woman I know who can wear such fashions displayed on such covers is Sherah, > Princess of Power. And her hair and horse are both pink. > > I have not read any Marge Piercy. I will. > > -lissa > > elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat > > instructor, english pancakes for dinner. > virginia tech > blacksburg, va 24061-0112 > ebloomer@vt.edu > 540.231.2445 > "Words. She knows so many. She knows seven languages, and all of them different, and in all of them she is hungry." -Candas Jane Dorsey, _Black Wine_ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:25:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Andrea L. Klein" Subject: Re: question re: dystopias, reproductive technologies & women In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You might try _Utopian and Science Fiction by Women: Worlds of Difference_. by Jane L. Donawerth and Carol A. Kolmerten. Syracuse: Syracuse UP, 1994. Also, _Dream Revisionaries: Gender and Genre in Women's Utopian Fiction 187-1920_. by Darby Lewes. Tuscaloosa, AL: The U of Alabama Press, 1995. and a thesis by Dunja M. Mohr. _Female Dystopia_. Marburg, Germany: s.n., 1994. (Though I found some of her conclusions questionable, particularly her, I thought, simplistic breakdown of the field into sf as the modern form of the utopian tradition. Her bib is pretty good, though, and her documentation is great once she gets into her examples.) also Rabkin, Eric S., Martin H. Greenberg, & Joseph D. Olander. _No Place Else: Explorations in Utopian and Dystopian Fiction_. Carbondale, IL: Southern Illinois UP, 1983. Good luck, Andrea Klein On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, Laura Quilter wrote: > Name: Tamara Adamson > Email: adam1153@blue.univnorthco.edu > > I am doing a paper on Aldous Huxley's Brave New World and > what a woman's place in a society with bottled babies would > be. I am having a hard time finding material on any feminist > literary criticisms concerning dystopias. Please help! Thank > you. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:10:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M. Daphne Kutzer" Organization: SUNY at Plattsburgh, New York, USA Subject: Dystopias, utopias, etc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Date sent: 1-APR-1997 22:08:49 There has been a fair amount written on this subject, none of which I have at the top of my brain (and I'm too lazy to rummage in the file cabinet). But I'm reminded of a novel I love, on the subject of a single-sex worl: Laura Gom's "The Y Chromosome." Anybody else know it? I think she's a Canadian writer. Anybody wants, I'll post a short plot summary. Daphne M.Daphne Kutzer Professor of English State University of New York "A word after a word after Plattsburgh, NY 12901 A word is power." voicemail: 518-564-2427 (Margaret Atwood) fax: 518-564-2140 email: kutzerdm@splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 01:01:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Andrea wrote: >Perhaps it does, but is there a better choice? > >Le Guin asserts that the proper place for the hero is the epic, or at >least not the novel, where s/he can be propped up on a pedestal in a >directed, linear narrative. The novel, she argues, is a collection of >relationships that can only be distorted by the presence of a hero. > >I'm not sure. With a looser definition of hero as simply a human ideal, >a respected or respectable actor in society, the novel might be considered >the ideal place to discuss the hero and his/her relation to society. I >don't think the hero has to be one-dimensional or universal. At least I'm >writing a thesis that discusses some very different sf protagonists as >heroes, most of whom do not follow the classical, linear model. The women >I'm writing about quest for wholeness and autonomy, not "the bagging of >the goods," except in the most metaphorical sense. > >Maybe the hero and heroism simply need to be re-defined. I can't be sure >that the women I'm writing about are, on some objective scale, heroic, but >if they are, they are constructing a more varied heroic. (btw, I'm >writing on Heinlein's _Friday_, Butler's _Parable of the Sower_, Piercy's >_Woman on the Edge of Time_, Piercy's _He, She, and It_ [heroes w/o >heroic narrative], Tepper's _The Gate to Women's Country [heroic narrative >w/o a hero], and Russ's _The Female Man_ and Cadigan's _Fools_ as >fragmented heroes.) > >Any thoughts on how we might define the female hero? Could she, or should >she, ever follow the classical/traditional model (of >departure-initiation-return, mysterious and illustrious birth, >dragon-slaying, threshold-crossing, etc.)? > >Does sf propose a different female hero, do you think, than society or >mainstream lit? > >Questions I'm wrestling with :) > >Andrea Klein >alklein@wesleyan.edu hmmm... you've obviously thought this through much more than I... ((I write email in the middle of the night with my newborn attached to me, breastfeeding, like some alien parasite; though I feel quite the modern feminist (call me cyberboob), there's something about babycare that makes me into a blithering idiot.)) first of all, i'm wondering if women can become better heroes through sf because it is, after all, another world altogether... a world where, just perhaps, there hasn't been male domination (etc..). but, first, i must go back and try to define what hero means to me. and the word, i'm afraid, has never felt like something i could attach myself to -- because it seems male. hero is someone who saves the day. mighty mouse. superman. and the means by which these people (?) save the day, conquer evil, and destroy the bad guy, is usually through violence and, sometimes, machinery.(of course women are violent, too... but you know what i mean.) hero's are the ones who went out and attacked the big animal, brought it back to the group to feed. Le Guin, in her essay "The Carrier Bag of Fiction," shows that our culture has developed from the hunter-gatherer society: women were usually the gatherers, and men, hunters. Unfortunately, she shows, stories about gathering oats were overshadowed by the stories of Ooom Ooom who wrestled the beast using technicalities and group planning. this was the story we heard. it was male, violent, and of the hero. the hero is the one who tries to get the most stuff-- and i can see ties to our medeivial world of kings and rings: the one with the most land and biggest mead hall wins. aka: the one who rapes and pillages and has the most sons wins. the hero story seems to be one of possession -- of materials and beings. (Tom Gardner's _Grendel_ comes to mind). so, yes: science fiction -- or speculative fiction (as it need not include science/technology/progress) -- seems to be the perfect arena for creating a new kind of woman-of-strength. women-that-are-admirable-by-other-women. who, then, in this genre do i admire? who seems to be a good "hero" to me? the woman in Le Guin's _Tehanu_.... the young woman main character in Delaney's _Neveryona_ ... the women in _Always Coming Home_ ... how would i then define the female hero? simply as a woman i'd like to be for a day. a female character who could, perhaps, wear a brass-nursing-bra. a female character who knows that we don't have to sit on big daddy's lap to be feminist: that a strong woman might be one who does not want to play the male game of climbing the ceo ladder... a female hero would be strong of her own right, rather than being measured on a male's scale. a woman who has choices, and makes the nifty ones. because of our history (HIS), to break out of what binds us is more easily accomplished on another planet altogether. so sf is a good place. but not the only place. i love jane eyre... i love mamaday, sula, their eyes were watching god, the woman behind the wallpaper in yellow wallpaper, sylvie in housekeeping... i think i love these women "heros" because they made nifty choices in complicated worlds. hmm. big goofy perplexed smile - lissa elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat instructor, english pancakes for dinner. virginia tech blacksburg, va 24061-0112 ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 01:28:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: SF Canon? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nalo: you are hilarious. but i'm surprised you even dare to display your science fiction for your literary friends to see. i have been known to toss delaney's novels under my bed (he'd be so pleased) before guests arrived. ah me. the tangled webs. have you read _The Motion of Light in Water_? To Everyone: i'd like to read more sci-fi and need your suggestions. you all keep tossing titles around that are all new to me. (the world of sf is only two years old to me. have killed Le Guin; have read most of Delaney; and every story in Norton's Book of SF. i want to read about strong women characters... problem is, the bookstores in good ol' Blacksburg Virginia seem to only carry the old heinlein stuff -- so i don't even know what to ask for. help. perhaps we could make a feminist sf canon (if that isn't an overwhelming contraditory of terms). thanks, lissa elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat instructor, english pancakes for dinner. virginia tech blacksburg, va 24061-0112 ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:41:27 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: dystopias and reproductive technology In-Reply-To: <01BC3EC9.9B1933C0@dell33.lib.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Joan Canty gave a paper on this topic at the 1996 Science Fiction Research Association conference in Eau Claire, WI. She would probably be able to give you a lot of references. Her address is joancanty@ucr.campus.mci.net. Michael Levy levymm@uwec.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:56:20 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: SF Canon? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lissa, Just got back from an sf con where I was on a panel on women sf writers. Here are some suggestions: Eleanor Arnason-- A Woman of the Iron People (Tiptree winner) Octavia Butler-- The Xenogenesis trilogy and Parable of the Sower Suzy McKee Charnas-- The Motherlines trilogy Helen Collins-- Mutagenesis Suzette Haden Elgin-- The Native Tongue trilogy M.J. Engh-- Rainbow Man Karen Joy Fowler-- Sarah Canary Kathleen Ann Goonan-- Queen City Jazz Nicola Griffith-- Ammonite (Tiptree winner) and Slow River (Nebula nominee) Gwyneth Jones-- White Queen (Tiptree winner) and North Wind Marge Piercy--He, She and It Rachel Pollack--Unquenchable Fire Michaela Rossner--Vanishing Point Melissa Scott--Trouble and Her Friends, Shadow Man, Night Sky Mine, Dreamships Joan Slonczewski--A Door into Ocean, Daughter of Elysium, The Wall Around Eden Sheri J. Tepper--Grass, The Gate to Women's Country, Beauty, A Plague of Angels, Gibbon's Decline and Fall Elisabeth Vonarburg--Reluctant Voyager, In the Mothers' Land, The Silent City Connie Willis--Doomsday Book Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 01:05:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: SF Canon? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > Nalo: you are hilarious. NH: :) And here I thought people were just deleting my posts. but i'm surprised you even dare to display your > science fiction for your literary friends to see. i have been known to toss > delaney's novels under my bed (he'd be so pleased) before guests arrived. NH: By the time it occurred to me to do that, the damage had been done. > ah me. the tangled webs. have you read _The Motion of Light in Water_? NH: I have my own Delany shelf. I re-read his autobio often, and just recommended it to a friend today. > > To Everyone: i'd like to read more sci-fi and need your suggestions. NH: Whee! I'll try to stick mostly to things I've not heard mentioned so far. Other people will have tons more: Elizabeth Lyn's "Chronicles of Tornor" series (The Watchtower, The Dancers of Arun, and Northern Girl); Candas Jane Dorsey's first novel _Black Wine;_ anything by Suzy McKee Charnas, Pat Murphy and Karen Joy Fowler; anything by Sherri Tepper; _Bone People_ by Keri Hulme (you won't think it's sf for the first 7/8ths of it, but hang in there); for that matter, _The Windeater_ by Keri Hulme; I think you already mentioned Gloria Naylor's novel _Mama Day;_ try her _Bailey's Cafe_ (I found it very interesting to compare it with Spider Robinson's "Callaghan's Crosstime Saloon" series); Nancy Kress; _The Gilda Stories_ by Jewelle Gomez; Octavia Butler; _When Fox is a Thousand_ by Larissa Lai; _The Spiral Dance_ by R. Garcia y Robertson--not to be confused with the book of the same title by Starhawk; _Hermetech_ by Storm Constantine; _An Open Weave_ by Devorah Major; _Voodoo Dreams: a novel of Marie Laveau_ by Jewell Parker Rhodes; _I, Tituba: Black Witch of Salem_ by Maryse Conde'; _The Armless Maiden and Other Tales of Childhood's Survivors,_ ed. Terri Windling; the "Snow White, Blood Red" series of re-interpreted folk tales, ed. by Terri Windling and Ellen Datlow (_Snow White, Blood Red,_ _Black Thorn, White Rose,_ _Ruby Slippers, Golden Tears,_ _Black Swan, White Raven_); _The Lusty Man_ by Terry Griggs, and I've always been partial to the Bene Gesserit 'witches' in Frank Herbert's "Dune" series. It would be so cool to be able to control people solely by your tone of voice, and to know that if they still got snippy, you could kill them with a kick. > > perhaps we could make a feminist sf canon (if that isn't an overwhelming > contraditory of terms). NH: Why would it be a contradiction? -nalo "When it rains, why don't sheep shrink?" "Why isn't 'phonetic' spelt the way it sounds?" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:47:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: sue hagedorn Subject: Re: question re: dystopias, reproductive technologies & women In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tamara--You'll probably want to look at Susan Squier's Babies in Bottles: Twentieth-Century Visions of Reproductive Technology. > I am doing a paper on Aldous Huxley's Brave New World and >what a woman's place in a society with bottled babies would >be. I am having a hard time finding material on any feminist >literary criticisms concerning dystopias. Please help! Thank >you. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:43:34 -0500 Reply-To: areuter@world.std.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Anne E. Reuter" Organization: iDirect Subject: Heroes and Heroines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While there is plenty of romance and adventure in "heroic" literature - Jason and the Argonauts, Odysseus, and hosts of other men and women (Boadicea, for one). Real life heroism can be just as compelling. Most of us understand the heroism of an oppressed person who finally refuses to knuckle under to a system that degrades them - like Rosa Parks. Then there is the heroism of men and women who have kept a troubled community going in times of crises - storms, earthquakes, floods. Stories and books about these people can have more meaning for adults and children, because they illuminate situations that all of us face at some point in our lives. Odysseus' story is great; I enjoy reading different translations of the Odyssey, and three years of high school Latin ensures I will never forget Aeneas. Sci Fi fantasy is fun too read too. But these are myths and fairy tales. Their symbols have meaning and provide entertainment, but it's important to create and read stories about real-life heroes too. I know this debate is going on in the field of history, where many historians work to uncover the day to day lives of the common people in addition to writing about the well documented lives of the powerful. it's a good shift in focus and I hope it continues. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:02:13 -0300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira Subject: Re: question re: dystopias, reproductive technologies & women In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi there - 1) there's sureley also something valuable on haraway's "symians, cyborgs and women". if you want me to be more specific i may check the book later (i'm at work now and this book is at home). Antonio Marcos Pereira On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, sue hagedorn wrote: > Tamara--You'll probably want to look at Susan Squier's Babies in Bottles: > Twentieth-Century Visions of Reproductive Technology. > > > > I am doing a paper on Aldous Huxley's Brave New World and > >what a woman's place in a society with bottled babies would > >be. I am having a hard time finding material on any feminist > >literary criticisms concerning dystopias. Please help! Thank > >you. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:12:29 -0300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira Subject: feminist sf canon In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi there - On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > perhaps we could make a feminist sf canon (if that isn't an overwhelming > contraditory of terms). 1) this canon thing shall be studied someday as a special kind of obsession found among sf fans by the late twentieth century. but should i vote for such a canon - i mean, for a "feminist sf canon", i'd surely add to the list - Le Guin's "Left Hand" - Russ's "Female Man" - Sterling's "Schismatrix" - Tiptree (But, gee, what to choose among so many things? "Houston", maybe) - Delany, for sure ("Babel-17" would be the more explicit reference; but see what delany thinks on his being labeled a "feminist sf writer" in his _silent interveiews_) there's more, much more on this topic. Antonio Marcos Pereira ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:15:41 -0300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira Subject: donna haraway Comments: To: Nalo Hopkinson In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi there - 1) is anyone around interested in haraway? i wonder what she's been doing lately. Antonio Marcos Pereira ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:22:36 -0300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira Subject: delany In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi - 1) in _the motion_ delany obliquely states why he wrote a sf novel with a women as protagonist such as "babel-17". he mentions employment conditions and general prejudice against women, using as an example marilyn hacker's misfortunes at work. he seems to be wanting to state with that book that the sf field could - should? - write with an eye on these problems. very much 60's zeitgeist. 2) later on, in _silent interviews_, he explains whatever he thinks about his being labeled "a feminist sf writer". he tells that he thinks he isn't, and shall never be such, because he thinks it's impossible for a man - no matter his sexual preferences - to be actually a feminist. does anyone thinks this is food for thought? Antonio Marcos Pereira ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 15:15:31 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Britt-Inger Johansson Subject: Re: SF Canon? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >To Everyone: i'd like to read more sci-fi and need your suggestions. you >all keep tossing titles around that are all new to me. (the world of sf is >only two years old to me. have killed Le Guin; have read most of Delaney; >and every story in Norton's Book of SF. i want to read about strong women >characters... >problem is, the bookstores in good ol' Blacksburg Virginia seem to only >carry the old heinlein stuff -- so i don't even know what to ask for. help. > >perhaps we could make a feminist sf canon (if that isn't an overwhelming >contraditory of terms). > >thanks, > >lissa I just composed a suggested reading list for another person and submits it straight off witout much comment as it contains names not hitherto mentioned hear as far as I've seen. Mind you, I only began to subscribe a week ago and haven't had time to read old postings yet. They are not listed in priority order, just assembled. Some are more philosophical in content, some lean more over to space opera, but I like them all for different reasons. 1) Anne McCaffrey has written in all genres available, sometimes in collaboration with others. Always very strong women. Incindentally with women in classic heroic parts, but much more psychologically interesting than their male counterparts usually are. These are her different series: The Ship Who Sang, Partnership (with Margret Ball), The Ship Who Searched (with Mercedes Lackey), The City Who Fought (with M.S. Stirling) and The Ship Who Won (with Jody Lynn Nye). Another series by her: The Death of Sleep (with Jody Lynn Nye), Sassinak (with Elizabeth Moon, actually a very good reverse of a Heinlein story with a woman in the part he cast a man, captured by pirates, sold as a slave, rescued by intergalactic spy and so forth), Generation Warrior (also with Moon), The Dinosaur Planet and The Survivors. Also less technology oriented are the books about the Crystal Singers (Killashandra, Crystal Singer, Crystal something). The Pegasus suite (To Ride Pegasus, Damia, Damia's Children, Lyon's Pride) about ESP developed consciously among certain people and used instead of ordinary technology in a distant Earth future. In the books about the Dragons of Pern (Dragonquest, The White Dragon, Moreta's Ride etc) she moves in a low-tech agrarian society, where the planet Pern get's colonized from Earth. It's not fantasy dragons are genetically designed to substitute for techno travelling modes but also to defend the planet from a space spoor which destroys organic matter. In the Petaybee suite she explores what must be called an ecological storyline, but I won't destroy suspense by saying more than that. A new series begun with the first book called Freedom's Landing. Now that took up a lot of space. I'll simply list the rest of the author's, if anyone's interested in a summary of content of anyone of them just ask. 2) By Elizabeth Moon the trilogy: Hunting Party, Sporting Chance and Winning Colors. 3) Katherine Kerr, Polar City Blues 4) Melissa Scott, Burning Bright 5) Jane Lindskiold, Smoke and Mirrors 6) Vonda McIntyre, trilogy: Starfarer, Nautilus and Metaphase 7) Sheri Tepper, Raising the Stones and other books (think someone mentioned her). 8) Marion Zimmer Bradleys Darkover series of course. Tend's to make me depressed when I read it, but they're good. I'll be back with an introduction of myself when I've more time, but I'm usually suspended in read-only mode as I'm working hard on the final run on my dissertation in Art History. Bi Britt-Inger.Johansson@konstvet.uu.se Research Assistant Dept. of Art History Uppsala slott, Soedra tornet H:0 752 37 Uppsala Uppsala University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:46:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: dystopias and reproductive technology In-Reply-To: <01BC3EC9.9B1933C0@dell33.lib.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I had a quick look at my shelf last night, and found _Feminism and Science Fiction_ by Sarah Lefanu, Indiana University Press 1988, which has a couple essays on feminist utopias and women's dystopias. My memory fails me, so I can't say whether I recommend or agree with the pieces. While drawn to feminist dystopias I often find them politically frustrating (or worse), such as Pamela Sargeant's The Shore of Women, the better known and strikingly similar Sheri Tepper book The Gate to Women's Country, and Storm Constantine's The Monstrous Regiment. I didn't think any of these three adequately thought through and challenged common assumptions about biology, sex, and sexual orientation. I was particularly aghast at The Monstrous Regiment, has anyone else read this? Re Nalo's comments on the Brass bra'd bimbos, I love it! I've always referred to this as the "metal bikini" art and fiction. I think I remember reading Marion Zimmer Bradley commenting on her experiences with horrible cover art especially in the early days of her career. I'm impressed with the list of recommendations which has sprung up within a day on this list. I can't think of much to add off the top of my head, I enjoyed a trilogy by Alis A. Rasmussen, I think one's called Revolution's Shore, which I rarely hear mentioned. I can never say enough about Pamela Sargeant's Venus of Shadows. I recently discovered Maureen McHugh's China Mountain Zhang and Half the Day is Night, I particularly liked the former. For cyberpunk I recommend Wilhelmina (sp?) Baird's trilogy. Robin Gordon -------------------------------------- "I view it as something of a nightmare that the sodomites are so brazen." Bigot Jesse Helms ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:08:08 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: donna haraway In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think she just came out with a new book ... there was an interview with her in WIRED in a recent issue. On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira wrote: > hi there - > > 1) is anyone around interested in haraway? i wonder what she's been doing > lately. > > Antonio Marcos Pereira > Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:38:26 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christopher Smith Subject: Madeleine L'engle Content-Type: text/plain Any fans out there of Madeliene L'engle? Most of her science fiction is aimed at Young adults, but it certainly is enjoyed by people of all ages... Feminism is a theme that recurs throughout her works (science fiction and otherwise...) There is a relatively new website recognizing the life and works of L'engle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/8838/ and also a new email discussion group also focusing on L'engle and her works... Information on that can be obtained from the Web page, or by emailing me. Chris. csmith@mad.scientist.com --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:29:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: dystopias and reproductive technology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Robin Gordon wrote: >While > drawn to feminist dystopias I often find them politically frustrating (or > worse), such as Pamela Sargeant's The Shore of Women, the better known and > strikingly similar Sheri Tepper book The Gate to Women's Country, and > Storm Constantine's The Monstrous Regiment. I didn't think any of these > three adequately thought through and challenged common assumptions about > biology, sex, and sexual orientation. I was particularly aghast at The > Monstrous Regiment, has anyone else read this? NH: I'm so glad that someone said this. Much of the reading that's meant the most to me has come from feminist writers, but the fiction can also at times be preachy or simplistic; probably because there's so much to say, they are such complex, all-pervasive issues, and they are topics that inspire such passion. I bought _Monstrous Regiment,_ because I'd so loved other of Constantine's work, particularly the Wraetthu Trilogy. But I couldn't finish _Monstrous Regiment._ I don't even remember what it was about, really, except a revolutionary and a woman living in an oppressive household. I'm afraid I simply lost interest. Which puzzled me. I'm usually rivetted by Constantine's work. But hell, I guess my favourites are allowed to write something that doesn't exactly thrill me every now and again! Better they overextend themselves trying for new heights than that they become formulaic. > "When it rains, why don't sheep shrink?" "Why isn't 'phonetic' spelt the way it sounds?" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:39:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Dystopias, Reproductive Tech Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tamara Anderson wrote: "I am doing a paper on Aldous Huxley's Brave New World and what a woman's place in a society with bottled babies would be. I am having a hard time finding material on any feminist literary criticisms concerning dystopias. Please help! Thank you." In addition to the recommendations provided by others, check out the bibliographies on the Feminist Sci Fi web site. Re: what a woman's place in a society with bottled babies would be, two traditional feminist answers are--Women would be better off! No, we'd be worse off! First answer comes from Shulamith Firestone and others; second from Adrienne Rich, and others. You should check out Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time for contrast to Huxley. It presents a utopian vision of woman's place in a society with bottled babies. Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:44:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Re: SF Canon? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >To Everyone: i'd like to read more sci-fi and need your suggestions. you >all keep tossing titles around that are all new to me. (the world of sf is >only two years old to me. have killed Le Guin; have read most of Delaney; >and every story in Norton's Book of SF. i want to read about strong women >characters... >problem is, the bookstores in good ol' Blacksburg Virginia seem to only >carry the old heinlein stuff -- so i don't even know what to ask for. help. >lissa I'd suggest you explore Laura Quilter's web site for ideas. Two of my current personal favorite authors are Sherri S. Tepper and Octavia Butler. I've almost exhausted Tepper (her stuff is incredible). I also just finished Gearhart's Wanderground, written in the 70's--amazing and powerful. Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:39:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Sells Subject: Re: donna haraway In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Donna Haraway's new book is called "Modest_Witness@second_millennium. FemaleMan_Meets_OncoMouse: Feminism and Technoscience." (NY: Routledge). In the book, she uses Russ's FemaleMan as a central trope for her analysis. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:59:05 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: good stuff to read As Laura's web-site demonstrates, the amount of feminist sf/fantasy/utopian fiction is staggering. Good places for getting reading suggestions can be found in the bibliography of Pamela Sargent's _Women of Wonder: the Contemproary Years_ (currently in print!), & the Tiptree Award website [http:// www.sf3.org/tiptree.html ], where most of the fiction mentioned comes with annotated comments. Many of my favorites have already been mentioned; let me add a few that haven't: Rebecaa Ore, _Gaia's Toys_, _The Illegal Rebirth of Billy the Kid_, _Slow Funeral_ and "The Alien Bootlegger." Bev Jafek's collection of short fiction, _The Man Who Took A Bite Out of His Wife_. Rachel Pollack's _Temporary Agency_. Carol Emshwhiller's _Carmen Dog_, plus her various collections of short fiction, including _The Start of the End of It All_. (Sargent's _Women of Wonder: The Contemporary Years_ has a good story of hers.) Dorothy Bryant, _The Kin of Ata Are Waiting for You_. Margaret Atwood's _The Handmaid's Tale_. Candas Jane Dorsey's collection of short fiction, _Machine Sex...and Other Stories_. Aileen La Tourette, _Cry Wolf_. Sue Thomas's _Correspondence_. And finally, my very favorite sf book of all time, Mary Staton's _From the Legend of Biel_. And "much, much, more," of course, but that goes without saying. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:46:11 +0200 Reply-To: dragonskeeper@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: The Dragons Keeper Subject: List of author and titles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, all. I hope some of you would take a look at The Dragon Keepers homepage. I am trying to list authors and titles from Science Fiction, Fantasy and some Romance subgenre (Timetravel, paranormal etc.) I happen to include horror by mistake ;) If you have the time to check out your favorite author on my homepage, I would be grateful for additions to the lists I currently have at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2727/ I am specially interested in female writers, but males are fine to :) Sincerly -- Pernille Sylvest http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2727/ More than 800 authors and 4500 titles ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:19:49 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: List of author and titles Comments: To: The Dragons Keeper In-Reply-To: <3342B783.1DCE@geocities.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You might want to check out the women science fiction writers index at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/femsf/womensfwritersindex.html On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, The Dragons Keeper wrote: > Hi, all. > > I hope some of you would take a look at > The Dragon Keepers homepage. > > I am trying to list authors and titles from > Science Fiction, Fantasy and some Romance subgenre > (Timetravel, paranormal etc.) I happen to include > horror by mistake ;) > > If you have the time to check out your favorite author on > my homepage, I would be grateful for additions to the > lists I currently have at > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2727/ > > I am specially interested in female writers, but males > are fine to :) > > Sincerly > -- > Pernille Sylvest > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2727/ > More than 800 authors and 4500 titles > Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:33:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Mary Staton's _From the Legend of Biel_ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For L. Timmel Duchamp--You wrote that Staton's _From the Legend of Biel_ was your most favorite sf book of all time. I read it last summer and could not figure it out, how it relates to feminism, I mean. Since the work shows up on everyone's lists of the 'classics' I figure I must be missing something terribly important. Can you explain (bare bones) its significance? Thank goodness I noticed your note about it. At last, maybe a small nagging puzzle can be solved! Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:53:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Fem Sci Fi Canon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, All! I just wanted to tell all of you who submitted reading recommendations how much I appreciated receiving your lists. Good job! I've just formed a Fem Sci Fi book discussion group on my campus and your suggestions will really come in handy. Not that we didn't already have enough ideas for books...so many books, so little time. A few words on the 'hero' topic. (I haven't had time to read all remarks yet so may be repeating others' thoughts.) On the face of it, I think a feminist conception of 'hero' must be different from the traditional concept. The ancient stories of the male 'Quest' repeated or rehashed over the ages in Western lit, for instance, nearly always involved abandonment, misuse, betrayal, or death of a helpful woman, without whom the hero could not have succeeded. Check out the _whole_ story of the first Quest, Jason's for the Golden Fleece. Ditto the Arthurian legend for betrayal of woman/women responsible for the success of Arthur. The hero's code: Loyalty to men, yes; to women, no. Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:55:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mala Ghoshal (NC)" Subject: Y Chromosome, introduction In-Reply-To: <01IH7GF9Y3FS00TXGL@SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Daphne, I'd be interested in a summary of _The Y Chromosome_. while i'm posting, i 'd like to just say hi to everybody--i'm new on the list, am writing a thesis on sex and gender in science fiction, and am already finding this list really helpful. mala ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:06:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mala Ghoshal (NC)" Subject: brass bras In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII regarding the recurrent references to brass bras, there's an anthology called _chicks in chainmail_ which looked like it was women writers having fun with heroic sword-and-sorcery cliches. i haven't read it but it looked entertaining. i think the editor might be jessica amanda samuelson. mala ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:15:51 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Y Chromosome, introduction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Mala-- I'm new to the list too (hi y'all), but I just gave a paper on the gender of fear, where I examined six francophone sf short stories that contained monsters, and tried to determine whether there were any differences between the 3 male and 3 female-authored stories as far as fear went. I actually found more about the figure of the monster itself, but it was fascinating seeing such clear-cut differences between the two sexes... At 10:55 PM 4/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >Daphne, I'd be interested in a summary of _The Y Chromosome_. while i'm >posting, i 'd like to just say hi to everybody--i'm new on the list, am >writing a thesis on sex and gender in science fiction, and am already >finding this list really helpful. > mala > > hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 00:19:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Fem Sci Fi Canon In-Reply-To: <19970403024649.6423.qmail@ns.potsdam.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: I'm wary of generalizing too much, but I think that female heros tend to operate in a different mode from the male ones. Male heroism (I'm speaking of heroic *literature*) is often about the 'lone wolf' who defies convention and stands apart. Female heroes seem to act more with a sense of the communities of which they are a part, whether or not they choose to act in concert with those communities. 'Course, as I'm typing this, I'm thinking of exceptions to both statements. So take the comment for what you will. Both ways of acting are ways of bringing about change. -nalo On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Judith A. Little wrote: > Hi, All! > I just wanted to tell all of you who submitted reading > recommendations how much I appreciated receiving your lists. Good job! > I've just formed a Fem Sci Fi book discussion group on my campus and your > suggestions will really come in handy. Not that we didn't already have > enough ideas for books...so many books, so little time. > > A few words on the 'hero' topic. (I haven't had time to read all > remarks yet so may be repeating others' thoughts.) On the face of it, I > think a feminist conception of 'hero' must be different from the > traditional concept. The ancient stories of the male 'Quest' repeated or > rehashed over the ages in Western lit, for instance, nearly always involved > abandonment, misuse, betrayal, or death of a helpful woman, without whom > the hero could not have succeeded. Check out the _whole_ story of the > first Quest, Jason's for the Golden Fleece. Ditto the Arthurian legend for > betrayal of woman/women responsible for the success of Arthur. The hero's > code: Loyalty to men, yes; to women, no. > > Judith > > > > ************************************************************************* > Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam > Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu > > *********************************************************************** > "When it rains, why don't sheep shrink?" "Why isn't 'phonetic' spelt the way it sounds?" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:22:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sheryl Curtis Subject: Re: Y Chromosome, introduction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Heather: I'm new to the list as well. I'm particularly interested in Francophone sf (my husband speaks French and my kids are bilingual, but prefer to read in French so far). Anyway, I would like to know what the six stories you examined are, if you don't mind. Also, did you read them in French or in an English translation and if you read them in translation, do you know who the translators are (I'm a translator so I'm interested in anything to do with translating sf). Thanks for any info. Sheryl C. Montreal, Quebec >Hi Mala-- > >I'm new to the list too (hi y'all), but I just gave a paper on the gender of >fear, where I examined six francophone sf short stories that contained >monsters, and tried to determine whether there were any differences between >the 3 male and 3 female-authored stories as far as fear went. I actually >found more about the figure of the monster itself, but it was fascinating >seeing such clear-cut differences between the two sexes... > > >hmaclean@kent.edu >http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:47:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Y Chromosome, introduction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Sheryl! I'm from Switzerland--but I lovelovelove Montreal... =) The six stories are: Duvic, Patrice. ^ÓA.C.E.^Ô 1978. L^Òhexagone halluciné. Ed. Gérard Klein et. al. Paris: Livre de Poche, 1988. 50-64. (France) Perrot-Bishop, Annick. ^ÓSpirales de l^Òamour-mémoire.^Ô Dérives 5. Ed. Jean-Marc Gouanvic. Coll. ^ÓAutres mers, autres mondes.^Ô Montréal: Fictions-Logiques, 1988. 5-40. (Vietnam/ France/ Canada) Petoud, Wildy. ^ÓLa cage et le jardin.^Ô Univers 1989. Ed. Pierre K. Rey. Paris: J^Òai lu, 1989. 203-218. (Switzerland) Rochon, Esther. ^ÓMourir une fois pour toutes.^Ô Sous des soleils étrangers: Anthologie de science fiction québécoise. Eds. Yves Meynard and Claude J. Pelletier. Laval, CA: Ianus, 1989. 163-182. (Canada) [written in 1976] Sussan, René. ^ÓLes dents de l^Òespace.^Ô Les insolites. Paris: Denoël, 1984. 29-41. (Algeria) Walther, Daniel. ^ÓLe petit chien blanc qui rôdait seul dans les ruines de la ville déserte.^Ô Retour à la Terre 1. Ed. Jean-Pierre Andrevon. Paris: Denoël, 1975. 15-42. (France) I read all these in French, but I'm a translator too. In fact, I'm trying to get an anthology of Nouvelle Vague short stories that I translated (with scholarly intro, see my web page) published (it's in the hands of Duke UP at the moment, and contains the Petoud & Walther stories). Nice to meet you! Heather =) >Hi Heather: > >I'm new to the list as well. I'm particularly interested in Francophone sf >(my husband speaks French and my kids are bilingual, but prefer to read in >French so far). Anyway, I would like to know what the six stories you >examined are, if you don't mind. Also, did you read them in French or in an >English translation and if you read them in translation, do you know who the >translators are (I'm a translator so I'm interested in anything to do with >translating sf). Thanks for any info. > >Sheryl C. >Montreal, Quebec > hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:24:10 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: brass bras In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Editor was Esther M. Friesner. Jessica Amanda Salmonson has edited a number of anthologies, though. On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Mala Ghoshal (NC) wrote: > regarding the recurrent references to brass bras, there's an anthology > called _chicks in chainmail_ which looked like it was women writers having > fun with heroic sword-and-sorcery cliches. i haven't read it but it looked > entertaining. i think the editor might be jessica amanda samuelson. > mala > Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:15:15 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: brass bras Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 23:06 4/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >regarding the recurrent references to brass bras, there's an anthology >called _chicks in chainmail_ which looked like it was women writers having >fun with heroic sword-and-sorcery cliches. i haven't read it but it looked >entertaining. i think the editor might be jessica amanda samuelson. > mala > Not Samuelson. Friesner? Anyhow, it's a hoot. Martha Bartter Truman State University mbartter@truman.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 10:43:38 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Re: Mary Staton's... Judith A. Little wrote: >You wrote that Staton's _From the Legend of Biel_ >was your most favorite sf book of all time. I read it last summer and >could not figure it out, how it relates to feminism, I mean. Since the >work shows up on everyone's lists of the 'classics' I figure I must be >missing something terribly important. Can you explain (bare bones) its >significance? Thank goodness I noticed your note about it. At last, maybe >a small nagging puzzle can be solved! Judith, it's interesting to hear that this book shows up on lists of "classics," since I have yet to meet another s-f person who has read it! To give you a really good sense of how beautifully the book works for me would require my doing a re-read first. Although I often sit down & write about books that make a big impression on me, I've hugged this one close to me in a big, warm, emotional silence. As if it were a deep, personal secret it comforts me to possess. As I think about the weirdness of this attitude, I see that it's not all that surprising, considering how the book, somehow, represents a sort of apotheosis of nurturance-- both in what it describes & in what it does for me emotionally. (& by the way, it's not simply identifying with the child, nor with the parenting adult-- but the entire character of the relationship as a whole, that makes me feel this way.) I believe that of all the feminist science fiction I've read, this novel best describes a way of bringing human beings into the world that would make human reality the brightest, and the most vibrantly creative and beautiful that it could be. Reading about the main relationship in the novel, which is between a child & the adult who is parenting it, not only makes me believe that humans could be more than they have been, but is in & of itself healing. This is a utopia that focuses on the process of how a human being acquires a social identity, & it proposes that the process can be done without damage. It's significance for feminism lies in the fact that until humans can find a way to become social beings without reproducing the hierarchical binary, oppression & its concomitant violence will be inescapable. This is one of those fictions, by the way, where fetuses are grown in vitro. Timmi Duchamp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:02:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Staton's -Legend of Biel_ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For Timmi Duchamp--Yes, your few words bring the work into focus. Thanks for taking to time to point out the parenting angle. I'll have to reread it, because I seem to recall noting some unpleasant aspects of this system of creating and educating humans, but can't remember what they were. Thanks, again! Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:51:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mala Ghoshal (NC)" Subject: longer introduction, fear In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970402232921.09c71adc@kent.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi everybody! i have a little more time now so i'd like to give a slightly longer introduction. i'm a fourth-year literature/gender studies major at new college in sarasota, florida. i'm starting a senior thesis this spring and (if all goes well) finishing next fall. my general topic is sex and gender in science fiction, so right now i'm just trying to get grounded enough in the material to narrow that down. one thing i've been particularly interested in is how different science fiction authors deal with reproduction and child-rearing. it's exciting to know that there's a really articulate, informed community out there interested in exactly the same authors and books i'm working on. heather, what differences did you find in fear between male and female characters? mala ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:51:09 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dena Marie Sexton Subject: HI EVERYONE!!! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, my name is Dena and I am a Senior Sociology major at UC Santa Cruz. I am going to be applying to grad school in another year and would like to study medical sociology and feminist theory . . . right now (for fun and in preparation for my studies) I am going to begin looking at Feminist Utopias and Dystopias. There was an article some years back proposing the Santa Cruz was a feminist utopia. So, I am going to compare literature and social conditions. I am also interesting in gender and science studies and concepts such as the patient as a cyborg. Well, that is a small introduction to me and my interests. I would love to talk to anyone who has intersecting interests or have any ideas. Thank you! Dena ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:25:07 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Re: HI EVERYONE!!! Hello, all. My name is Anne Stuecker and I am a junior majoring in English (with a concentration in Cultural Studies) and Spanish, with a minor in Music (Voice) at George Mason University in Fairfax, Virginia. I was originally going to send this message straight to Dena, but figured I may as well post it on the list. Dena wrote: >There was an article some years back >proposing the Santa Cruz was a feminist utopia. Do you believe this to be true? I just read Kim Stanley Robinson's _Pacific Edge_, from his "Three Californias" trilogy, and I'm currently absorbed with the prospect of California as our nation's utopian center. I've been an East-Coaster all my life (DC is my home) and have never been further west than Kansas, so I'm interested to know more about California and to visit someday. >I am also interesting in >gender and science studies and concepts such as the patient as a cyborg. This, too, is fascinating to me. I feel that the large majority of Americans don't realize the great advancements science is making in the areas of what some would call "dehumanization." For instance, it is highly unlikely that someone has not cloned a human being so far. I mean, come on, we've all seen the "X-Files" (just kidding). Thanks for reading my ramblings. Anne Stuecker ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We have to shout above the din of our Rice Krispies. -- The Police ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:50:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: THANK YOU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thank you all for your exellent lists... i'm compiling them all together and am going to add them to my humongous list of things i must do before i turn 31. (the 30 list is, well, kaput.) if you guys think of any more, please holler them out at will. nalo: wheew. whatalist... thank you. i suppose a feminist sci fi canon is contradictory because of the word canon.. which, to me, brings up visuals of republican-golf-playing-grey-suit-wearing-blue-haired-60-yr-old-male-profess ors who teach (nay, lecture) all male authors. but, the word canon has other meanings: breeches; church rule; means of discrimination (don't you just love the oed online)... but it could work in terms of "sacred books." -lissa elisabeth bloomer cyberaromatherapy hint #1: spritz a bit of your instructor, english favorite cologne or toilet water on your virginia tech computer screen, or drip a scented votive candle blacksburg, va 24061-0112 on your keyboard. For you romantics: purchase ebloomer@vt.edu one dozen red roses, depetal, and gently toss 540.231.2445 over your hard drive with dramatic flicks. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:03:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: THANK YOU In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > nalo: wheew. whatalist... thank you. NH: :* I got carried away (she says sheepishly). i suppose a feminist sci fi canon is > contradictory because of the word canon. NH: Ah. Because i have no connections to academe, but a few to the arts world, I've been thinking that 'canon' means the body of work that delineates the progress of a particular art form. So I'm thinking of that process by where a breakthrough in a particular style of artistic representation begets another, as artists respond and react to each other. I've read sf crit. that maintains that sf inspired the New Wave, which inspired feminist sf, which inspired cyberpunk (remember: *reaction* as well as response), which is inspiring: what? Slipstream? sf by lesbigay writers? I don't know, but I'm sure that someone will be telling us soon what the next wave is. -nalo p.s. like your sig quote. > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:41:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: delany Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" AMP wrote: >2) later on, in _silent interviews_, he explains whatever he thinks about >his being labeled "a feminist sf writer". he tells that he thinks he >isn't, and shall never be such, because he thinks it's impossible for a >man - no matter his sexual preferences - to be actually a feminist. > >does anyone thinks this is food for thought? hmmm. i think anyone who is against rape, against domestic violence, and all for women being treated well and unbiased in the workplace (i almost wrote "equal", but i'm working that word through, these days)(we're not equal... don't want to be)is, in my book, a feminist. what's terrible, though, is that so many people these days don't want to call themselves feminist because it would thus label them as ones who are against males in some way... (which, in many cases, they are... but it seems to be certain males in particular.) i'm thinking of my freshman (freshpeople) class -- i asked them "how many of you would call yourselves feminists?" and 1 or 2 out of a class of 25 would raise their hands. but if i ask "how many of you are for women being treated equally in the workplace?" or "how many of you think that women should not have to obey men?" or other questions like this, and of course, all of them raise their hands. i wish i could be like Lillian Robinson (who used to teach here at Va Tech) who tells her classes that if anyone is not a feminist or if anyone doesn't like Virginia Woolf, they should get out of her class immediately. ha. wish i could muster up the same ovaries. i'm surprised that delaney said that men cannot be feminists. because he seems to be a sympathetic and empathetic man -- enough to know that the mind can understand anything, regardless of position. (reminds me of that senator who said to anita hill, "i'm sorry i don't know what it's like to be a woman, so i can't begin to understand your situation." -- i think that's a big ol' cop-out.) feminism is comprised of both sex-issues and gender-issues. and certainly not every woman is a feminist. (even though she should be :) -lissa bloomer if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:35:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: delany In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: I can find the Delany quote if I look, but I think that the gist of what he said is that, as supportive as he is of feminism, he will never wear a woman's body and walk in a woman's shoes, any more than a White person could claim to be a Black activist. He, by very nature of being male, is part of that group of people from whom women have/have had to wrest our share of privelege. He says he cannot be inside the experience, but he can walk alongside us. -nalo On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > AMP wrote: > > >2) later on, in _silent interviews_, he explains whatever he thinks about > >his being labeled "a feminist sf writer". he tells that he thinks he > >isn't, and shall never be such, because he thinks it's impossible for a > >man - no matter his sexual preferences - to be actually a feminist. > > > >does anyone thinks this is food for thought? > > hmmm. i think anyone who is against rape, against domestic violence, and > all for women being treated well and unbiased in the workplace (i almost > wrote "equal", but i'm working that word through, these days)(we're not > equal... don't want to be)is, in my book, a feminist. what's terrible, > though, is that so many people these days don't want to call themselves > feminist because it would thus label them as ones who are against males in > some way... (which, in many cases, they are... but it seems to be certain > males in particular.) i'm thinking of my freshman (freshpeople) class -- i > asked them "how many of you would call yourselves feminists?" and 1 or 2 > out of a class of 25 would raise their hands. but if i ask "how many of > you are for women being treated equally in the workplace?" or "how many of > you think that women should not have to obey men?" or other questions like > this, and of course, all of them raise their hands. i wish i could be like > Lillian Robinson (who used to teach here at Va Tech) who tells her classes > that if anyone is not a feminist or if anyone doesn't like Virginia Woolf, > they should get out of her class immediately. ha. wish i could muster up > the same ovaries. > > i'm surprised that delaney said that men cannot be feminists. because he > seems to be a sympathetic and empathetic man -- enough to know that the > mind can understand anything, regardless of position. (reminds me of that > senator who said to anita hill, "i'm sorry i don't know what it's like to > be a woman, so i can't begin to understand your situation." -- i think > that's a big ol' cop-out.) > feminism is comprised of both sex-issues and gender-issues. and certainly > not every woman is a feminist. (even though she should be :) > > > -lissa bloomer > > > > > > if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. > > elisabeth bloomer > instructor, english > virginia tech > ebloomer@vt.edu > 540.231.2445 > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:09:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: delany In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Remembered that I'd read that Delany quotation only yesterday. Sure enough, the book was still on the bed. He says: "I have a great deal of sympathy with a lot of feminist thinking. I couldn't call myself a feminist, however, because I don't think a male *can* be a feminist, no matter how sympathetic he is to women's cause. It's not my fight--it's yours. And I am of the group you will have to take power from, if you're to win that fight--if only the power to oppress you. "How sympathetic then, other than intellectually, can I be? "It's like a white person calling himself a black militant. It just doesn't quite...you know...wash. I can be a feminist "fellow traveler," if you will. But that's it. That was part of my political education. And indeed, when a man started calling himself a feminist, that was the definitive sign he didn't understand what feminism was really about, anyway. "Recently, I've been barraged by a set of books, coming out of academia, all pointing out "male feminists," in which (some) women use the term and men use it also. I grew up in a particular ideological location where not using such a term was simply the custom. These people obviously grew up in another context. Now I must say, as I read these books, I see all the co-optations that I was warned against, that I was taught the custom was instilled to guard against, and that the idea of "male feminist" was claimed to represent." I find it very apt that he says he doesn't want to 'co-opt' our fight, but to be an ally. I very much wanted to take this quotation and show it to a male acquaintance of mine whose so-called 'feminism' sounds very much like 'let me fight this fight for you, dears. You just sit over there and be beautiful. I know you have brains, and I love you for it, and my, you look wonderful in those frocks. Are any of you free for dinner later?' Hmph. I don't know or much care whether you can legitimately hang the word 'feminist' on certain types of male political behaviour that are supportive of women's issues. If they really are being supportive, and not co-opting, and are sensitive to when they need to stand back and let us go to, then I don't mind if people call them feminists. Myself, I'm wary of doing so. I call them allies. -nalo On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > NH: I can find the Delany quote if I look, but I think that the gist of > what he said is that, as supportive as he is of feminism, he will never > wear a woman's body and walk in a woman's shoes, any more than a White > person could claim to be a Black activist. He, by very nature of being > male, is part of that group of people from whom women have/have had to > wrest our share of privelege. He says he cannot be inside the experience, > but he can walk alongside us. > > -nalo > > On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > > > AMP wrote: > > > > >2) later on, in _silent interviews_, he explains whatever he thinks about > > >his being labeled "a feminist sf writer". he tells that he thinks he > > >isn't, and shall never be such, because he thinks it's impossible for a > > >man - no matter his sexual preferences - to be actually a feminist. > > > > > >does anyone thinks this is food for thought? > > > > hmmm. i think anyone who is against rape, against domestic violence, and > > all for women being treated well and unbiased in the workplace (i almost > > wrote "equal", but i'm working that word through, these days)(we're not > > equal... don't want to be)is, in my book, a feminist. what's terrible, > > though, is that so many people these days don't want to call themselves > > feminist because it would thus label them as ones who are against males in > > some way... (which, in many cases, they are... but it seems to be certain > > males in particular.) i'm thinking of my freshman (freshpeople) class -- i > > asked them "how many of you would call yourselves feminists?" and 1 or 2 > > out of a class of 25 would raise their hands. but if i ask "how many of > > you are for women being treated equally in the workplace?" or "how many of > > you think that women should not have to obey men?" or other questions like > > this, and of course, all of them raise their hands. i wish i could be like > > Lillian Robinson (who used to teach here at Va Tech) who tells her classes > > that if anyone is not a feminist or if anyone doesn't like Virginia Woolf, > > they should get out of her class immediately. ha. wish i could muster up > > the same ovaries. > > > > i'm surprised that delaney said that men cannot be feminists. because he > > seems to be a sympathetic and empathetic man -- enough to know that the > > mind can understand anything, regardless of position. (reminds me of that > > senator who said to anita hill, "i'm sorry i don't know what it's like to > > be a woman, so i can't begin to understand your situation." -- i think > > that's a big ol' cop-out.) > > feminism is comprised of both sex-issues and gender-issues. and certainly > > not every woman is a feminist. (even though she should be :) > > > > > > -lissa bloomer > > > > > > > > > > > > if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. > > > > elisabeth bloomer > > instructor, english > > virginia tech > > ebloomer@vt.edu > > 540.231.2445 > > > > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" > P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:20:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Andrea L. Klein" Subject: Re: delany In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > NH: I can find the Delany quote if I look, but I think that the gist of > what he said is that, as supportive as he is of feminism, he will never > wear a woman's body and walk in a woman's shoes, any more than a White > person could claim to be a Black activist. He, by very nature of being > male, is part of that group of people from whom women have/have had to > wrest our share of privelege. He says he cannot be inside the experience, > but he can walk alongside us. I've been wondering about this question of how well experiences translate. I wonder--perhaps because I only become aware of which groups I belong to when I'm immersed in some wholly different ones (e.g. I feel most "female" when I'm amongst males, most American when in Spain, etc.)--I wonder what it means to "wear a woman's body." Are minority experiences really that different? I say this because I know what it is like to feel different from those around me, and also like others around me, but who I feel different from and who I identify with shifts moment to moment. The only lasting part is the emotion (of sameness and difference), not the incident that prompted it. And sometimes I feel alienated from the groups I "belong" to--I haven't yet felt unsafe at night because I am female...but I empathize with those who do. I just wonder if we are deceiving ourselves in marking off boundaries that divide and enclose--aren't we all just "walk[ing] alongside" each other? Andrea Klein (sorry not sf-nal, except I guess one could take the discussion into androgynes and cyborgs and other boundary-melters...) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:22:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: delany In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Andrea L. Klein wrote: > those who do. I just wonder if we are deceiving ourselves in marking off > boundaries that divide and enclose--aren't we all just "walk[ing] > alongside" each other? NH: I agree with you to a certain extent; we are. Come right down to it, we're all human. The 'difference' lies in how one is *treated;* it's an external thing that's imposed upon you. People impose barriers and boundaries differentially on other people. It doesn't stop if one says to the other, "but I'm really the same as you." It's important to *remember* that you're the same, so that you don't get suckered in by the type of propoganda that would have you believe that you and people like you are somehow lesser, and so that when you meet people who freely acknowledge your shared humanity, you're open to them; but it's just as important to be able to recognize and address the boundaries that are there. "That boundary really isn't there" is not an effective way to battle other people's prejudice, particularly when those people are in a position to use their prejudice to limit your access to the world. -nalo > > Andrea Klein > > (sorry not sf-nal, except I guess one could take the discussion into > androgynes and cyborgs and other boundary-melters...) > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 00:22:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Andrea L. Klein" Subject: Re: delany In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Andrea L. Klein wrote: > > > those who do. I just wonder if we are deceiving ourselves in marking off > > boundaries that divide and enclose--aren't we all just "walk[ing] > > alongside" each other? > > NH: I agree with you to a certain extent; we are. Come right down to it, > we're all human. The 'difference' lies in how one is *treated;* it's an > external thing that's imposed upon you. People impose barriers and > boundaries differentially on other people. It doesn't stop if one says > to the other, "but I'm really the same as you." > "That boundary really isn't there" is not an effective way to > battle other people's prejudice, particularly when those people are in a > position to use their prejudice to limit your access to the world. good points. I didn't mean to imply that real boundaries (gender, race, expectations, even height and weight, and other appearance expectations) don't exist in daily life. Our schemas for organizing endless streams of data and experience govern our perceptions: we see generally what we've come to expect to see. These schemas translate too often into prejudices and very real discrimination. Rather, what I intended to say was that, in a more abstract sense, I wonder how different our experiences of salience, of abnormality, of being ignored or condescended to or misjudged or simply pre-judged, really are. I wonder if beyond the particular manifestations of these experiences--salary discrimination, access discrimination, media invisibility or misrepresentation, etc.--most of us experience similar feelings and thoughts. I wonder if we stress the differences between various "oppressions" too much--to me, feminism is broader than that.... especially since I agree with some of the particulars of various feminist thoughts, and wholly disagree with others, and I feel like a woman sometimes and a human, animal, student, jock, atom, other times. This is all to say that if I am not quintessentially a woman or a feminist in all ways at all times, why can't Delany be somewhat a feminist in some ways and some times? Hope I've been clearer this time, but I fear not :) Andrea ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 07:39:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: delany In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Ah, now I think I understand. Yes, I agree. Delany understands like a feminist, he acts like a feminist, so what's the diff? Is that part (I know it's only part) of what you're saying? True. I have a male friend who calls himself a feminist, and based upon his actions in the world, I see no reason to contradict him, as opposed to the other guy who just doesn't get it. And I think another part of what you're saying is that often the labels we have to choose in order to identify with one set of experiences or another can only address part of what we are, so saying that one is a feminist doesn't capture all the other things we are, and may not even fully capture what one means by 'being a feminist.' If I bring this back to the sf, while it's fun and useful and edifying to be able to talk about the feminist writers this way, it means I often have to leave out mention of other writers whose work interests me, because they may not be overtly feminist or may not be sf. -nalo On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, Andrea L. Klein wrote: > On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > > On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Andrea L. Klein wrote: > > > > > those who do. I just wonder if we are deceiving ourselves in marking off > > > boundaries that divide and enclose--aren't we all just "walk[ing] > > > alongside" each other? > > > > NH: I agree with you to a certain extent; we are. Come right down to it, > > we're all human. The 'difference' lies in how one is *treated;* it's an > > external thing that's imposed upon you. People impose barriers and > > boundaries differentially on other people. It doesn't stop if one says > > to the other, "but I'm really the same as you." > > > > > "That boundary really isn't there" is not an effective way to > > battle other people's prejudice, particularly when those people are in a > > position to use their prejudice to limit your access to the world. > > good points. I didn't mean to imply that real boundaries (gender, race, > expectations, even height and weight, and other appearance expectations) > don't exist in daily life. Our schemas for organizing endless streams of > data and experience govern our perceptions: we see generally what we've > come to expect to see. These schemas translate too often into prejudices > and very real discrimination. > > Rather, what I intended to say was that, in a more abstract sense, I > wonder how different our experiences of salience, of abnormality, of being > ignored or condescended to or misjudged or simply pre-judged, really are. > I wonder if beyond the particular manifestations of these > experiences--salary discrimination, access discrimination, media > invisibility or misrepresentation, etc.--most of us experience similar > feelings and thoughts. I wonder if we stress the > differences between various "oppressions" too much--to me, feminism is > broader than that.... especially since I agree with some of the > particulars of various feminist thoughts, and wholly disagree with others, > and I feel like a woman sometimes and a human, animal, student, jock, > atom, other times. This is all to say that if I am not quintessentially a > woman or a feminist in all ways at all times, why can't Delany be somewhat > a feminist in some ways and some times? > > Hope I've been clearer this time, but I fear not :) > > Andrea > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 19:39:25 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pernille Sylvest Subject: Sv: List of author and titles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, all Some people found my homepage missing. Sorry for bothering you This should be the correct adress http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2727/ I just checked it, it is there now! But I am more than willing to believe, that Geocities has been moving around with the servers, and thereby prevented access to my homepage. They do that a lot :( to be able to offer the users a better service :) Sincerly Pernille ---------- > Fra: The Dragons Keeper > Til: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Emne: List of author and titles > Dato: 2. april 1997 21:46 > Hi, all. I hope some of you would take a look at The Dragon Keepers homepage. I am trying to list authors and titles from Science Fiction, Fantasy and some Romance subgenre (Timetravel, paranormal etc.) I happen to include horror by mistake ;) If you have the time to check out your favorite author on my homepage, I would be grateful for additions to the lists I currently have at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2727/ I am specially interested in female writers, but males are fine to :) Sincerly -- Pernille Sylvest http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2727/ More than 800 authors and 4500 titles ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:14:41 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Wu Yun Ren Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women I am new to this list so I will introduce myself. My name is Peiwen Ren and am 18 years old. I am in college studying God only knows what and I became interested in SF/F when I was 13. The first two SF/F books I ever read was East of Midnight by Tanith Lee and SwordDancer by Jennifer Roberson, two wonderful books. I too am one of those readers who veers toward female authors as well as strong heroines and I rarely read male authors like Asimov or Heinlen. My favourite SF/F authors are Jennifer Roberson, Tanith Lee, Andre Norton (Elvenbane series) as well as Tanya Huff and Charles de Lint. I love Star Trek (all of them), Star Wars, X-Men as well as some Japanese anime like Sailormoon. I also joined the Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv where most of the people enjoy reading the 'hardcore' sci-fi novels so it is difficult for me to connect at times. One of the problems they brought up was about spouses/girlfriend/boyfriend who were not interested in SF/F books. Does anyone have a problem with their loved ones? Have fun chatting! :::pei::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:52:19 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stone Waters MD Subject: Re: delany I do not think that being feminist necessarily has anything to do with one's sex. I am more feminist in my thinking than my wife, or daughter, and certainly more feminist than womens' fashion mags that are more anti-feminist (and less honest) than pornography. Feminists fill different slots under the bell-shaped curve, from the extreme man-bashing feminists to moderates who may even vote republican, from goddess worshipers to atheists, from straights to gays etc. I think one should be concerned more about the content of an author's work than their sex which should be irrelevant except when used as a barometer of society's attitudes. Stone Waters, MD ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:29:53 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: delany In-Reply-To: <970407085218_922392277@emout02.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Happy Monday everyone. I would like to suggest that the tangential discussion going on regarding the age old question "can men be feminists"is a bottomless pit which threatens to consume this list. Of course this is an, at times, interesting and potentially important discussion, I'd like to suggest that this isn't really the place for it, unless discussed with relation to sf (which is possible). While I can only speak for myself I expect other women on this list who are politically involved have been through this discussion more times than we can count, like myself, and don't necessarily want to run through it again here when there are so many interesting issues to discuss with relation to the lists theme of sf and feminism. After reading Stone's post I could have a lot to say in reaction, but just don't think this is the place. On to feministsf: I was thinking on the weekend about sf movies, which I tend to enjoy greatly, whether they're intelligent or just entertaining, everything from the star trek films to bladerunner to 12 monkeys, strange days, etc. I'm not very familiar with the older scifi films. My question is this, can anyone think of sf films they would consider to be feminist? The only two I can think of are: 1. Tank Girl, which I loved and very few people saw. It has a fabulous cartoon riotgrrl quality, great take-no-shit action heroes for young and old girls alike, not to mention the lesbian undertones. 2. The film version of The Handmaid's Tale, which I thought was only ok, I appreciate it's a difficult book to film but still could have been better. Of course I can postulate some of the reasons we see few feministsf movies, hollywood inevitably considers young men the primary audience for sf movies. And hollywood sf movies are big budget, so particularly there no risks of "alternate" themes or work are likely to appear. Is it possible to make good sf on a small budget for the big screen? In solidarity, an "extreme" feminist socialist dyke, Robin Gordon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:08:57 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: SF movies, was: Delany Thanks for getting us back on track Robin. >My question is this, can anyone think of sf films they would consider to >be feminist? The only two I can think of are: 1. Tank Girl, which I loved >and very few people saw. It has a fabulous cartoon riotgrrl quality, great >take-no-shit action heroes for young and old girls alike, not to mention >the lesbian undertones. 2. The film version of The Handmaid's Tale, which >I thought was only ok, I appreciate it's a difficult book to film but >still could have been better. Of course I can postulate some of the >reasons we see few feministsf movies, hollywood inevitably considers >young men the primary audience for sf movies. And hollywood sf movies >are big budget, so particularly there no risks of "alternate" themes or work >are likely to appear. Is it possible to make good sf on a small budget for >the big screen? Oh, I saw Tank Girl, I loved it! Other feminist sf films... that's not easy. One of my favorite sf films from recent years was "Until the End of the World" (1991, directed by Wim Wenders) which wasn't actively feminist, or even about gender, but at least the portrayal of women didn't make me cringe or want to throw things at the screen. And the idea was extremely cool (it's about the invention of a camera which records images so that blind people can see them.) A few days ago someone mentioned Ursula LeGuin's collection of essays "Dancing at the Edge of the World" which I had just checked out and read about three pages of at that point. Now I've got a bit further and there's an essay about her experiences working with a filmmaker to make "The Lathe of Heaven" into a PBS film. She sounded pretty happy with the result. Anyone seen this? --I haven't. --Ruth Ann begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(CL0`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`(0!```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```'<`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!&;W(@9&ES8W5S``(P`0`` M``4```!33510`````!X``S !````' ```$9%34E.25-44T9 3$E35%-%4E8N M54E#+D5$50`#`!4,`0````,`_@\&````'@`!, $```! ````)T9O0```@%Q``$````6```` M`;Q#;?]_%@"(^Z\L$="I[ "J`$=$0P``'@`># $````%````4TU44 `````> M`!\,`0````<```!J;VYE``@0`0```&4` M``!42$%.2U-&3U)'151424Y'55-"04-+3TY44D%#2U)/0DE.35E154535$E/ M3DE35$A)4RQ#04Y!3EE/3D542$E.2T]&4T9&24Q-4U1(15E73U5,1$-/3E-) M1$525$]"149%34E.``````(!"1 !````-P8``#,&``"+"P``3%I&=49!6#C_ M``H!#P(5`J@%ZP*#`% "\@D"`&-H"L!S970R-P8`!L,"@S(#Q0(`<')"<1'B M `B!L(Q!R="D0($DFXR>G"L!E,#H@,2X< M$!Q!($?H:7)L)M!W)J 1<#$1_1;0=@F *B\K/R)H`' I4.TSX'(C$"T0=S0O M+K\B=QAP96\+4"> ?,FT G!870*AS>_-5\BE0$!D&ME+6YO+7._)J V ML2+0(X$[, 20;P>1>QR2)U!U'2$VT@;P*5!G_S+Q.V$@`$%@)M!!D$$A*A#_ M!X ",".!/B\_/T!/,&$Z@'YS'H #D4-0!($J`"=P<_TR<#(R<3!A*&(W`@"0 M'=&[* $P4D@VT0# *; G!"#_,I Z@#,E1<]&WR(.,2 FD&D(8&=H!4!W.U$P MDV_F:R;0,2!A3R@06&$1H3$5 M<&\3P/LI,%*2 09 \H7,<82@!(@= M]5F1;E*1(BBR!X(%L2D0_G(=L'"?;H]OFG>?<:\B=[]$@C"R*A!2(3WP6;)) M!"#_0>%:\0"0`F G@44Q05$

8_'LZ"+T]H4>(ZL3**ZS.F/8 A'LQ/=,(M!R@G?BZ,`":!/@!, MD43B7W%Y[3)P3R=Q* %M-T%8T 6P_SV .I$H1@-27U%JP (P0R#G??%?P3M1 M(E5%<0,@2.+F14.B6_,@5P6P*4!V@. H,3DY,2;04T!24>L3T"E08B,05P=P MD< )\,UC8BDS-5$Q;B=!]#/@_S"Q+18FT 6Q8H!9,0&@"&#_!4 \%0&F4%N$>$'D'0"?R*1#[:6)30&24TG]S6[$%`1I _S!Q=R$` M<$4#)I #8 ?@)Z+^9SMA2,2%-#)P:_)(XBFQ\SN 43)E>!X`=L%BXP;P[Y(P M4M26TYX#;I:!0C,QXK\FX0> 'A S-5)1!;!D?F'_`, R-N$]X?\I4* F"=%SX:,R,>)(PI?A*UKP"X!T,G!.G#%) M)_]8X7_ -K%P48%!"'"*HS;2_W3#4O(#H*ISEK6*LI[0.D#_"(%JL5_!=U$= M$@/P)I [-_ Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Annie Wilcox Subject: Friendships's gift Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello Tanya & others, Looking at the description of this film it sounds rather like a sf (sort of) book I read about fifteen years ago and it's being reissued. It's called "The Euguelion" by Louky Bersianik. Has anyone read it? I read it while I was having my son (or at least *after* having him) and can't remember a darned thing about it. Maybe this is my nudge to reread it? Annie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:32:09 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mala Ghoshal (NC)" Subject: tiptree In-Reply-To: <970407085218_922392277@emout02.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII robin, i think your response (or lack thereof) to stone waters showed impressive restraint. i've been reading a lot of james tiptree stories and novellas recently--she seems to have a darker view of human nature in general and male nature in particular than many feminist sf writers. she seems to see male violence and aggression as at least as much a product of biology as of culture. i'm fascinated by her, and i wondered if anyone else had any thoughts on her. mala ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:46:03 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Roberta Wolff Subject: Re: SF movies, was: Delany RuthAnn Wrote: A few days ago someone mentioned Ursula LeGuin's collection of essays "Dancing at the Edge of the World"essay about her experiences working with a filmmaker to make "The Lathe of Heaven" into a PBS film. She sounded pretty happy with the result. Anyone seen this? --I haven't. The fact that the movie was produced by PBS means it was probably sensitively handled. Ursula LeGuin would have had a good experience, unlike some fantasy writer's who have watched their works disappear into the money making maw of "something that would sell," not necessarily say something of the original purpose and message of the writing. But, this is Roberta, who thinks they could have done well without some of the bloody messes in DragonHeart. That was a movie about transformation, not transfusions. I would love to see "The Lathe of Heaven" if it can be obtained on tape. Anybody know about that??? Roberta's Cat-- onegreycat@msn.com greycat1@airmail.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:24:58 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sheryl Curtis Subject: Re: Friendships's gift Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A new English translation was just released a week or so ago. The translation is by Howard Scott and the publisher is Alter Ego Editions of Montreal. Sheryl Curtis Montreal >Hello Tanya & others, >Looking at the description of this film it sounds rather like a sf (sort of) >book I read about fifteen years ago and it's being reissued. It's called >"The Euguelion" by Louky Bersianik. Has anyone read it? >I read it while I was having my son (or at least *after* having him) and >can't remember a darned thing about it. Maybe this is my nudge to reread it? >Annie > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:21:43 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rick Collier Subject: feminist heroes in SF films MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello to all of you on the list.... I'd like to introduce myself, but I must admit that I do so with some hesitation since I recognize that I am privileged to have access to the ideas and messages on this list. As a male who has had the unpleasant but good fortune to have several female acquaintances open my eyes over the years to my own ingrained and invisible (to me) sexism, I recognize how easy it is for men to wade into all kinds of conversations and so dominate them that productive discussion is considerably diminished, if not extinguished. I will try to avoid that error. I am most certainly not a feminist -- this would be as impossible a matter for me as claiming to give birth; I have no need to co-opt either nomenclature or territory that rightfully belongs to women. However, I do support the principles, analyses, and goals of feminism, as well as those women who carry the feminist project forward; and mostly I do all that by scrutinizing my own behaviour, staying out of the way, and nailing the chauvanist pigs in my classes. I come to these interests through my larger commitment to Socialism, which I see, broadly, as a political philosophy which, at least in part, attempts to identify oppressed groups and work toward their empowerment. The feminist struggle becomes, then, for me part of a panoply of concerns that includes not only race and class, but also discrimination based on age, ethnicity, ability, height/weight/appear- ance, and (getting back in part to SF in a way), species (I hope I am right in seeing close links between feminsim and environmentalism). Early on in my university studies I recognized the brilliant connections being made in SF by Russ, Tiptree, LeGuin, Charnas, and others, and such insights and writing have continued to fuel much of my intellec- tual life. But enough about me: I am primarily interested in the current dis- cussion of feminist protagonists in the SF film. Most such protag- onists, of course, are simply props for male heroism -- they twist ankles, scream a lot, become helpless and immbolized, and require rescuing. Others (but far fewer) are simply men disguised as women -- the macho mama. However, for me the first film that seemed to provide a real breakthrough in how the female hero was to be viewed is "Alien". Admittedly, the character of Ripley (nicely foiled by Lamb[ert]) becomes more of a "macho mama" later on under the direction of Cameron in "Aliens"; however, I sense that Ridley Scott is doing something rather remarkable in that first film (and, after all, he did direct "Thelma and Louise"). But before I (perhaps all too typically) go on at length, I'd like to see what others think about Ripley as a newly drawn, perhaps feminist, hero. rick c. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:46:13 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: tiptree Comments: To: "Mala Ghoshal (NC)" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Mala- so you've been reading Tiptree, huh? Maybe "The Screwfly Solutiion" or "The Women Men Don't See?"- where the only possible solution for the problems of "invisible" (ie not beautiful) women is to escape to another planet...Yes, Tiptree is increbibly bleak- there is a great article by Lillian Heldreth on the link between sex and violence in Tip's work. I did my MA thesis on her- and Tiptree never saw any way out for women, seeing our present freedom's as an optical illusion. Sisterhood was not powerful in the least. There was an article by someone named something like "Julie Ludetke-Seal" which tried to argue for some kind of transcendence in tragedy in Tiptree's work, but I found it unconvincing. The fate of Margaret Omali in Up the Walls of the World seems emblematic to me- the only way for happiness as (in this case) a gnetially mutilated woman is to become a computer. The body seemed to Tiptree to be a site of enormous pain- and when sex is added to the equation, things become much worse...... Yours, in gloom, Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:35:06 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Sells Subject: Feminism and Environmentalism (was feminist heroes in SF films) In-Reply-To: <01IHFBOLQ17EE0LL3Q@MtRoyal.AB.CA> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Re: the connection b/t feminism and environmentalism in rick c.'s post This connection is called Ecofeminism. An especially relevant source for this list would be Patrick D. Murphy's _Literature, Nature, and Other: Ecofeminist Critiques_ (SUNY, 1995), which discusses LeGuin from an ecofeminist perspective. For ecofeminism in general, see Carol Adams, _The Sexual Politics of Meat_ (good discussion of anthropocentrism), Irene Diamond and Gloria Orenstein, eds. _Reweaving the World: The Emergence of Ecofeminism_, and Karen J. Warren, ed. _Ecological Feminist Philosophies_. These are but a few good starting points in a long bibliography of the intersection b/t feminism and environmentalism. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:32:11 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jason Griffin Subject: About feminism in SF movies. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hiya all I've just joined. I'm impressed with the amount of mail I got WOW!!!! Anywa to the duscussion I agree Tank Girl was really good and on the topic I'm sure plenty people have seen the Alien series, now that had plenty to say about the topic with old Weaver[probably spelt wrong] having quite a bit of courage and brains compared to the most of the greedy men. That's about all I can say. O seen as some people are asking questions, has anyone read Magie Furey's Artefacts of Power series, they're great and does anyone know if the fourth book is out yet